the end of this Article these be his wordes Or rather his difinitiue sentence Although that which the Pope claymeth Extreâ—â— shiâ—â— were his very right yet by his owne Iudgement he is whorthie to lose it For Pope Gregorie saieth Priuilegium meretur amittere qui abutitur potestaâ—e Iew. 31â— He that abuseth his authoritie is worthie to lose his priuilege And Pope Siluerius sayeth Etiam quod habuit amittat qui quod non accepit vsurpat He that vsurpeth that he receaued not let him loose that he had Be it so He for his own part deserueth Like as the Temporal heades and Princes of the world wheÌ„ they doe not their office are worthie of losinge it But who shall depose them It must be done by Law and not by Insurrection And vntil lawful processe against them be ended the Common Wealthes are bound to obey them be they neuer so vnworthie Yet the Princes are made by men and raceaue Authoritie not immediatly from God but of the CoÌ„mon Wealth which doth choose them But the Pope whome Christ him selfe without Consent of men goinge before or voyce of y â— world hath made Head of his Church throughout the whole worlde who shall take his Priuilege frome him if he should be thereof vnworthie For the Prerogatiue and chiefe Authoritie geauen by God muste continew what soeuer the partye his merites are The Apostle also saieng There is no power except it be froÌ„ God and obey you Rom. 13. Prepositours and such as are set ouer you Heb. 13. And if the chosen of God 1. Reg. 24 King Dauid hauinge Saull at a vantage besought God to staye his handes that hym selfe might not kill hym sweringe that As trewlye as GOD liueth excepte God stroke hym or hys tyme were come to dye or he should be destroyed in Battayle he would not lay haÌ„ds vpon the Anoynted of God And if our Sauiour Christe commaunded the Iewes To doe that which the Scribes and Pharisies dyd saye vnto them though their lyuing and behauiour otherwise was so euill that he charged them not to doe as they dyd who dare be so bould as hurte Or dissobeye the Anoynted of God The Highest Bisshoppe in all Christendome the Successour of S. Peter lawfullye sutttrg in Chaire and Place of Instructinge and gouerning the Faithfull Wil the SuperintendeÌ„tes of the Church of England doe it By what law and reason Mary y â— Canon law shal be brought furth 11. quaest 2. pâ—iuilegium and 25. quaest 2. Sic decet caet And M. Iewel shal alleage a Glose or make a Glose vpon it Of which the whole Fraternity must coÌ„clude that if it were neuer so much proued that the B. of Rome was Called in the six hundred yeres after Christ Head of the Vniuersall Church And though it were his verye Right Yeâ— for as much he abuseth his Priuilege he deserueth to leese it And we wil haue him no more Obeied Fare well he And so breketh out this fourth Artitle into Presumptuons Contempte of Lawfull Authoritie Thus haue we the cumpasse of M. Iewels triflinge Processe First the Name he saieth can not be found and as long as that Answer will hold he Insulteth and Braggeth like Iewel him selfe Then the Calling of S. Leo Vniversal Bisshope in the Councel of Chalcedon was not a Calling of him so in deede but an Offering to cal him so And so the testymony of y â— inward Goodwill is not sufficiente but he muste haue it declared by worde of mouthe Thirdly poore Priestes and Deacons but none of the Councell of Chalcedon did geue it So by like none but Noble Personages and men of honor shall geaue Voices Fourthly though S. Peter the first Bisshope of Rome were so called yet the question is not moued of him but of the Pope So might the Successour challenge nothing of the Prerogatiue of his Predecessour Fyfthly if it were geuen but once Or twise it is no matter because our question sayth he is of the Vsual Stile So must we bringe furth a Proclamation I trow Or Scale for it Or els nothing is done Sixthly in a kinde of Speache the B. of Rome as also of Constantinople may be called by the Title of VNIVERSAL So shail it be but a Phrase only and of no weight Or Substance what so euer be alleaged for these Titles aforsayed Last of all if it were the Popes Right Yet is he worthy to leese it And so it â—ooteth no more to Reason of this question for that they haue done they wil not 〈◊〉 Such is theyr finall determination By which way of violence and force if the cause of Religion may be folowed ye will be to stronge M. Iewel not only for Oppressed Catholikes in these your prosperous daies but allso againste quiet Catholikes where they liue with the loue of their Soueraignes But if this muste needes seeme vnreasonable in Professors of a new Gospel which take vpon them to direct vs by the expresse woorde of the Lorde in the Right knowledge of all Truthe and Honesty I will truste that this Detection of you their Chiefe man of Warre Shifting Striuing Craking Dissembling Lying Triumphing c. will cause the Indifferent Reader to Beware of M. Iewel ⧠⧠⧠Thus endeth the First Booke THE SECOND Booke Declaring by more Speciall Detection of M. Iewels behauiour that it is needeful to BEWARE of hym THE proper Conueiaunce and Art which M. Iewel hath vsed in the foresayed Articles I haue for the speciall poyntes of those questioÌ„s shortly and sufficiently discouered For which his conueyance allthough the Iudifferent or Waueringe myndes should wisely BEWARE of him and his owne frendes and deere brothers the Protestantes myght with a good zeale require of him either to begyn a Newe Challenge Or defende him selfe better in the Old And thoughe I my selfe might for these causes thinke enough to be already sayed againste him Yet because Affection and Loue is not only blinde in it selfe but darkeneth also the sighte of vnderstandinge and Reason that his Fauorers will not lightly perceaue his foule fasshions except they appeere both Many and Great and Notable And because the weaker and doubtfuller in such mater are not satisfyed with suffiente but require abundauce and euidencie I will for these two sortes of mens sakes declare yet further and plainer what Worthinesse is in M. Iewels Replye Of the Common Places which M. Iewel hath ouercharged his boke withal in the first four Articles CAP. I. FIrst concerning the outward shewe only and face of his boke it is so great in quantitye so faire in sight and so Liuely as I may say by resoÌ„ of many Allegations and Authorities out of Councels Fathers Histories Law Ciuil and Canon and the Glose also therevpon that it cummeeh very quickly into ones minde to thinke that a matter of nothing should not increase to such bygnes nor an euil fauored cause so well be set furth nor Auncient witnesses be so thickly brought out
taken of them for the seruice in the vulgare Tongue Of S. Ambroses wordes M. Harding reasoneth thus The 24. Example Iew. 246 Peter was the Chiefe of the Apostles Ergo the Pope is Head of the vniuersal Church This Argument would be better considered for as it is it holdeth but weakly Verely this is a weake Solution But let the Argument be better considered formed in those termes which D. Harding vseth S. Androw folowed our Sauior before y e S. Peter did Amb. 2. Co. 12. Har. 106. And yet Androw receiued not the Primacie but Peter ergo the Apostolike see Church of Rome hath the Primacie Consider you now what Answer you may deuise For this Argument doth not meddle with the question of the Apostles Preeminence emong themselues vnto which only you bringe it but of Primacie in y t Church of Christ ouer which though other Apostles were generall officers yet the supremacie was singularly in S. Peter Paule went vp to Hierusalem to visite Peter The 25. Example Iew. 253. Ergo the Bishope of Rome is Head of the Church Folishely Is it not tyme M. Iewel either that some Physitian or God hymselfe visite you either to purge you of that cuil humor which occupieth your heade Or to take vengeance of you which do so abuse your Readers in matters of so Great weight D. Harding hymselfe maketh no other Argument in this place but of Authoritie and the reason which he bringeth and you peruert is Theodoritus an Auncient Bishopes who writing to Pope Leo saieth thus Har. 108. If Paule the preacher of truth and trumpet of the Holy Ghost ranne to Peter to bring from hym A determination And declaration for them who at Antioche were in Argument and contention concerning lyuing after Moyses Law much more we which are but smal vile shal runne to your Throne Apostolike that of you we maie haue salue for the sores of the Churches Doe you then M. Iewel cal this goeing for determination in a doubtfull question nothing els but S. Paules visiting of S. Peter And would you haue it conceiued either that S. Peter was sicke there il at ease Or that for good willes sake and curtesie only S. Paule went to visite hym Byside this D. Harding groūded not his Conclusion vpon this argument but that rather which foloweth in Theodoritus which is this For in al thinges it is meete that you haue the cheife doinges Ergo it foloweth wel of Theodoritus authoritie that the Pope is supreme The Church of Christ is one Ergo the Pope is an vniuersal Bishope The 26. Eyample Iew. 255 That is an other question Which D. Harding went not about to proue by Natural Reason but his present conclusion is this A multitude can not continue ONE Har. 108. onlesse it be conteined and holden in by ONE But the Church continueth ONE Ergo it must haue ONE Heade or Gouernour Now whether the Bishope of Sarum or London or Rome or Constantinople c. shal be that One Head ouer al y e members of Christes mystical body in earth that may be afterwardes consydered but in y t meane tyme D. Har. goeth no further then Natural reason doth leade hym that in A greate multitude and cumpanie it is meete to haue One ouer the rest if thei shal be kept in Vnitie Mankynd dependeth most of sense The 27. Example Iew. 257 Vnsensible Ergo the Pope is the Heade of the Vniuersal Church Here is a very vnsensible Argument ▪ nor sense nor reason can make it good Why make you it then For D. Har. concludeth not so But whereas you in sayeing Christ only to be the Heade of the Churche would inferre that the Pope is not anie Heade at al in Answering this your obiection he declareth that mankynd dependeth moste of sense and receiueth al lerning and instruction of sensible thinges Har. 108. Ergo notwithstanding Christ be the cheife Heade yet because he lyueth not visiblie emong vs 109. the Church hath neede of a man to be her Gouernour whom she maie perceiue by owtward sense Which man whether he must be the Pope or no he commeth not so low in this place M. Hardinges reasons procede thus The 28. Example Iew. fol. 260. God is careful and hath special Prouidence for his Church Doubtful places of y t scriptures must be expoūded General Councels must he summoned Bishopes being at variance must he reconciled Ergo the Bishope of Rome is Christes General Vicar and Head of the Vniuersal Churche Ergo Indirectly saieth D. Har. by natural reason there must be One Heade in y e Churche and one chiefe seruant in y e howsehold of Christ Mary y t y ◠Pope is he y t is out of the cumpasse of natural Reason which although it attaine vnto it that by most perfite waie of Gouernemēt there should be One heade Yet y t this or y t man should be he by her owne power she cā not bring it to passe therefore it was not directly so cōcluded of D. Har. in this place as M. Iewel ful peruersly gathereth This is a very poore helpe in deede The 29. Example Iew. 274. Fautlesse M. Harding here is faine to resemble the Bisshopes of Rome touching their doctrine to Balaam to Caiphas And to a Leaden Seale And touching their lyues to confesse False thei are Lampes without light The first is false through your reporting the seconde is fautlesse in D. Har. saieing Concerning doctrine he saieth that the See of Rome hath this singular Grace that he which sitteth in it is compelled to teach truthe like as Balaam and Caiphas were made to fulfill the blessed wil of God notwithstanding their falsehode and wickednesse The comparison therefore is not Ignominious to the Catholikes but must Glorious to the praise of God and most comfortable to the consciences of true Christians And it consisteth not as you report it M. Iewel spitefully enough in resembling the doctrine of the Bishopes of Rome to y e Persons of Balaam and Caiphas but in resembling the Prouidence Assistance and Grace of God Sophistrie in directing their doctrine vnto the like Spirite of Trueth and Prophecie as God hymselfe vttered by Balaā and Caiphas withowt their good wills In resembling also the doctrine of the B. of Rome not vnto the mater of a leadden Scale but vnto the Forme of a Seale which is as true in the basest metal as in the purest And so let the Bishop of Rome be as he wil his doeinges shal not let the working of God but as perfite a printe of his Truth shal be made with a Leaden Seale as a Golden Concerning now the other pointe of lampes withowt light he maketh not a General Rule nor saieth that y e Bishopes of Rome are so which worde you M. Iewel doe vse but sometyme saieth he the see hath failed in Charitie and it hath ben in case as it might truly
him in their owne natural and Mother tounge and That watchinges Praiers and Common Psalmodie was in estimation in iūdrie countries and That Christe is nowe the voice of the whole world Compare I say these allegations with the Authorities of D. Harding and thou shalt synde that the oddes is so greate that in these of M. Iewels there is no Testimonye or Reason at all for Publike Seruice Yet if this shal not seeme so to his Fauorers and if they wil needes defende it that M. Iewel hath spoken like a Greate Clerke to no litle purpose maie it please them to intreate him to satisfie vs a litle more y ◠we may vnderstand but of our owne Countrie to troble him with no other when the Englisshe Seruice ceased and when the Latine began And if he shal neuer be able to bring any Token or Argument that euer it was in any other Tounge then Latine Reasonable sauing of late in King Edward the vj. dayes can it with any conscience be required of a Catholike to forsake that Order of which the Aduersary with all his Serche or Curiositie can geue no other begynninge but from the founders of our Christian faithe in England Or will he enforce vs to subscribe to his newly inuented manner of Seruice which neither we nor he did euer Reade or heare that it was vsed in any tyme these fiuetene hundred yeres All other Argumentes maye be lette passe This one of Tradition beinge so auaileable and sufficient Traditiō that excepte we would of set purpose and againste all conscience folow new deuises and inuentions we ought not to forsake the Auncient and receaued Order in Seruice And therefore to the ouerthrowing of this third Article and strieng of a faithfull and Catholike harte let it be answered to all busie peekers of quarels about other mens right I holde the Latine Seruice by Tradition I beleue it came frome the first planters of the faith in our countrie If I he deceaued tell me frome whome els And whē And how I receaued it And shew by whome when And how the Englishe Seruice was firste receaued and afterwardes how it decaied And if thou canst not in these two poyntes neither speake againste the firste nor shewe for the second hold thy peace then like a wise man and blame not them which holde aduisedly the Latine Seruice because they haue receaued it And will not Yeld rasshly to y e chainging of it into Englishe because no Example maketh for it The fourthe Article ₠Whether the Bisshope of Rome was within six hundred yeres after Christe called an Vniuersall Bisshope and head of the Church BY what name foeuer the B. of Rome was then called if it be plainly proued that his Supreme power and Authoritie ouer the whole Churche was then acknowledged and cōfessed there is no more to be required or sought for in this Article Is not this true And shall not euery quiet reasonable man be contented herewithal Yes verely Except we would be brought to that foly we muste not passe vppon the thinges themselues but seeke only after the names of them And discredit the Truth of the matter for lacke of finding the worde whiche betokeneth it Will it please then M. Iewel to be contented and answered if we proue to him the Popes Supreme Authoritie ouer the Church though we alleage not the very termes of Vniuersal Bisshope or head which he asketh for I would some indifferēt man would perswade with him A reasonable requesto to remit somewhat of y e rigor of his and extreme hard dealing that if the Thinge it selfe be found the Terme of it to seekinge yet he obey the approued Authoritie and confound not al order for lacke of significant wordes to expresse it by Yet he shall haue Termes significāt enough as Principalitie Primacie Chiefe Rule and such others as the Fathers vse in speakinge of the See of Rome Mary for those two which he requireth he must not be to hasty vpon vs consideringe that it is not the word that maketh a Thinge but the wil of God or act of man And againe that one Thinge may by sundrie wayes of like force be expressed y ◠if some one lacke some other may supply it Lyke as therefore in cominge to some one place that hath many wayes leadinge thither he should lacke either his sight or his reason which would wrangle and contend with me that I am not there because I knowe not or folowed not that way which he would haue taken yet I chose I trow a good way enough which brought me directly to my purpose So in y e seeking out of the Truth which is in the thinges themselues vnto which we are conducted many wayes by varietie and copie of wordes he that could not deny it me but that I haue the Matter I sought for and yet would aske me where is the speciall word Head of the Church which signifieth the Popes Supremicie doth by al reason declare not that I am far from my purpose but that him selfe is desirous to peeke quarels and seeke digressions Let vs be iudged then with tolerable indifferēcie Hath not D. Hardinge folowed a reasonable and allowable order which in this question of the Supremicie proueth the Thinge it selfe and counteth it of no greate importance to seeke for the speciall wordes which M. Iew. requireth Is not so much enough for a quiet Reader And y e end beinge attained vnto haue we to goe any further I could proue no. But I do not mistrust so little Iudgment or Conscience to be in honest natures And first therfore I desire this wel to be remēbred noted y t y e heretike hath no vātage against y e Catholike for his goinge to y e matter and passinge ouer Names Titles wordes Secondly it foloweth to be marked well that D. Harding not because y e question it selfe required it of necessitie but for that he would satisfie to the vttermost M. Iewels or some others curiositie he sheweth out of good authoritie the very selfe names which M. Iewel requireth Vniuersall bishop Head of the Church to haue ben spoken of the B. of Rome within the compasse of the six hundred yeares after Christ But marke it I pray thee good Reader perfitely that by the conferringe of Person with person Behauior with behauior Chalenger with defender and Aunswer with Argument the triflinge or earnest dealinge may the better appeare the more nigh these contraries be in sight the one of the other Now then in the third place consider how vnreasonably M. Iew. craketh in this Article against him which by all right was not bound to Names and Titles prouinge the Thinges them selues and which afterward brought furth the very Names so much asked for least perchaunce by M. Iewels triumphinge there vpon many should certainely beleue we had lost y e victorie Whosoeuer therefore wil haue some examples where a great shew is made of
Wherefore did you mone this question whether within six hundred yeares after Christ any Communion was ministred vnto the people vnder one kind did ye it not to this end that you might conclude there vpon if no man woulde aunswer you that Christes Institution is now broken of the Catholikes which minister otherwise then they did in the Primitiue Churche Ergo the marke which you loke vnto is Christes Institution which to proue to be with vs or against vs we therefore consider the doinges of the Primitiue Church And because exaÌ„ples are fouÌ„d eneÌ„ in y e age such records as your self dare not yet deny by which we know y e receauing vnder one kind was many times vsed we coÌ„clude in y e principal y t it is not against Christes Institution to receaue vnder one kinde Do you deni y e coÌ„sequeÌ„t How caÌ„ you which haue so appeled to the primitiue Church as though you wold be coÌ„teÌ„t quiet if good testimonies of that time could be alleged againste you What say ye theÌ„ to y e AntecedeÌ„t ye coÌ„fesse it in plain words y e some receaued then vnder one kind Iew. 132. saying Neither did I deny that euer any one maÌ„ receued the CoÌ„munioÌ„ in one kind But yet you reply it was an abuse I here you wel But that is another question The. viij shift And it is another shift also much fouler theÌ„ any of the fornamed Remember your self M. Iewel I pray you and let vs conclude our matters in order The first question should haue bene â–ª VVhether Christes Institution doth stand with receauing vnder one kinde The first w t you but the second rather w t vs is whether any Communion was then ministred vnto the people vnder one kinde We proue you coÌ„fesse y â— some hath hen ministred Ergo it is time ye yeld subscribe A iij. question now if you wil shal be whether it were an abuse in y e primi tiue Church to receue vnder one kind And so furth in many other according to the circumstancies of Persons time and places But before we come to theÌ„ do you in the meane time as you promised for we haue proued y t which you denied Either yelde or take better hold fast and begin again If you striue say ye meÌ„t y t it was not OPENLY receiued vnder both kinds ORDINARIly ThaÌ„ what a trifâ—er or wraÌ„gler be you to chaleÌ„ge vs about circuÌ„staÌ„ces before we wer agreed vpoÌ„ y e substaÌ„ce of y e mater yet if you wil nedes haue OPENLY w t his felowes put in theÌ„ begin again speak more plainly for as ye haue proponed y e mater ye ace ouercoÌ„me And yet before ye begin w t those ciruÌ„staÌ„ces I warn you it wil be to no purpose because our selues may confesse vnto you y t we caÌ„ not gaine say it you shal coÌ„clude nothing against vs by it For y e churches cause is sufficieÌ„tly defeÌ„ded if receiuing vnder one kind may be proued by any auÌ„cieÌ„t exaÌ„ple w tout any exception made by you Thus it may be againe sene how M. Iew. speaketh in all this second Article to no purpose if he make the question so circumstantiall as he hath labored to haue it On the other syde the Catholike cause is sufficientlye defended both by our owne witnesses and by confession of our Aduersaries because it is proued sundry wayes that receauing vnder one kind was knowen and vsed in the Primitiue Churche and therefore vndoubtedly it is not repugnant to Christes Institution The third Article â‚ COncerning this question of the Common Prayers whether in the sixe hundred yeres after Christ they wert in a strange tonge which the People did not vnderstand what can any Catholik of these partes of the world say more then that they were in the Greeke tounge or Latine tounge only For whereas neither Authoritye of Scripture coÌ„maundeth it neither veritie of Tradition confirmeth it neither report of Historie witnesseth it neither yet any Token or Memorie signifieth it that the Publike Seruice of the Churche Easte or Weaste was within the compasse of the first six hundred yeres in any other tounge then Greeke or Latine what lightnesse muste it be to forsake the orders which we haue and take others I can not tell what 1. Cor. 14. The Apostle maketh an expresse distinction betwene the Idiote and him that supplieth the place It is no wisedome to chauÌ„ge that We haue for an other thing no maÌ„ is sure What. Of the Idiote concerning the Common Prayers he geueth no precept of the other he sayeth how shall he that supplieth the place of the Iâ—iote answer Amen vpon thy blessing Now by Tradition we haue receaued no other but Latine or Greeke Seruice Of the change of the vulgar touÌ„ge into any of these two Greek or Latin or of setting vp of these in stede of the knowen and vulgar tounge there is no mention in any writer And laste of al ther can be shewed no token or sufficient similitude that the Seruice of old tyme was in the vulgar tounge Ergo how should a reasonable man condemne that whiche hym selfe seeth so generally vsed and folowe another vnknoweÌ„ manner to which he is vncertainely referred S. Augustine saieth it but of Ceremonies August ad Ianuar ep 118. that If the whole Church throughout the world doe obserue any thing to dispute thereof it is a point of most insolent madnes And if it be so in ceremonies is it not much more so in publike Seruice For in Ceremonies because of indifferencie of theÌ„ in them selues and infirmity of some persoÌ„s which be ouer curiouse against them manie poyntes might be reasoned vpon and If manifest neede require be omitted Yet If the whole Church vse them there ought to be no question But in publike Seruice which perteyneth to the state of the Church and in which the mouing of any dout causeth the whole Religion to be shaken how is it to be suffered that she should be apposed Or that any Priuate persons without reason or authority shuld cal that into question which is generally receaued The Heretikes of this age say that the Latine Seruice for example in all the West Churche hathe not come frome the six hundred yeres after Christe Frome whence came it then Who were the planters of it Who were the mainteyners If they did it w t consent of al the Weast CouÌ„tries that is a great preiudice against your contentionsnesse How unlikely If they did it by force or violence would no man complaine of it presently Or put it in writing for instruction of the posteritie Surely this can not be but a great wonder y t the CoÌ„mon Seruice of the West Church was not generally in Latine euery where at y â— begynning And that so many thousand Churches in so many seuerall and diuerse Countries thereof should altogether most faithfully hold and kepe the same And no man yet tell
of what begynning But what should a Catholike be trobled in his mind or geue eare to Peekers of quarells If the iust and quiet Possessours of Auncient and good Landes should be made to bring foorth Euidencies and either answer to all demaundes whiche it pleaseth the Aduersarie to moue or ells to be quyte and cleane thrust out of all without any further iudgmeÌ„t would it not be accompted so vnreasonable and iniuriouse that no wise man or honest man could alowe it or suffer it What cause then is there why the troblers of quyet possessouts in Religion should be praysed and houoreâ— as ghostly Sâ—ruâ—yers I trow of all Christendome How hold you this quod he Mary what is that to thee Thou seest I hold it Yea but how came you by it Firste who gaue you the authority to aske me that question Then spare not Enchroching and busy heretikes but lay it to my charge if thou hast any euidence against me It was not so in the Primitiue Church Yes forsooth was it Bring me then sayeth he any sufficient authority of Doctor or Councell Folish felow wilt thou put me to my proofes which am in possessyon and haue long dwelt here as it can not be denied thy self being not able to shew from whence I had it except it were of the first Lordes and Patrones What right I haue the same I haue receiued And those that deliuered it to me toke it of others before them And they againe receiued it of their forefathers Neither canst y u proue any chaunge of Titles to haue come in betwene from the first Apostles Fathers to their children which now do liue Is it not therfore a sufficient defence to vs that thou canst not deny but the West Church doth vse and hath for hundred of yeres together spokeÌ„ Latiu generally in her Seruice and art not able to shew where she euer vsed English Dutch French or Spanish Thy silence in this question doth answer for vs. And it should be a demonstration to all reasonable men that vndoubtedly the publike Seruice here in the Weast was in Latin from the beginning TrafitioÌ„ for the 〈◊〉 because no other beginning therof can be shewed nor the ceasing of those vulgare Tongues which as M. Iewel getteth were once vsed can any where be found or espied Thus much should and would be said if the right way might be alowed But now present possession maketh nothing And therfore is D. Harding constrained to folow y e pleasure of y â— Extorciotier to proue that to be ours of auncient ryght y e long possession wherof without any disturbaÌ„ce coÌ„cludeth it to be our right Wherein though he hath done very well yet he bringeth nothing but M. Iewel turneth it to a gesse a likelihode a coniecture Which phrases are so common wyth him through all this Article as though he would admit no Authority or Argument but such as is taken out of the Scriptures or such as should be so euident and inuincible that he could haue no power to answer them His Phrases are these M. Harding is not able to proue this with all his gesses Iewel Againe 160 The Minor he warranteth but by a gesse only 166 Againe Reply is made and that by gesses and likelihods 180 Againe This gesse standeth vppon two poyntes And so in other places moe For this cause that it may be perceiued whether he allso vseth not Gheasses that he may learn in time to be good to others when he is fauorable to him selfe before I speake of D. Hardinges reason let vs a while hold our peace and put M. Iewel to answering Tel vs I pray you Sir for truths sake you which are so well seene in Antiquities and can appose and presse others so ernestly with obscure questions about the Primitiue Church Is it not reason that you geue better instructions which finde fault with the Catholikes opinions And iâ— the iudgment and answere of the whole Church that now is can not satisfye you should you with any conscience require your opinion to be receiued except ye bring Demonstrations for it Tell vs therfore I beseeche you without Gesses Coniectures and Like lihodes which you can not away withall was the publike Seruice of the Churche within the six hundred yeares after Christ Harding Pol. 74. in the Syriacal or Arabike in the AEgiptian AEthiopian Persian ArmeniaÌ„ ScythiaÌ„ FreÌ„ch or Britain tounge Here you may answer vnto vs This is no indifferent dealing Iew. 165 And again Sodainly he altereth the whole state of the cause and shifteth his handes and requireth me to shew But that it may appeare you deale plainly and seeke nothing but truthe Answer I pray you throughly and directly In one example or two you are content but why not in examples for all For the Syriacal tounge you speake the moste but why bring you not somewhat for eche of the other You will refer the rest to an other place vnto which straighte waits we will folowe you but presently thus you say At Paulaes funerall all the multitude of the Citye of Palestine met together Hierony mus in Epitaphio Pan 〈◊〉 The Psalmes were songe in order in Hebrewe Greeke Latine and Syrian tonge Well here in dede is mention of the Syrian Tounge and of Psalmes song in it But how proue you these Psalmes to infer the CoÌ„mon Seruice in the same tounge For by Psalmes I vnderstand Hymnes Songes and Praises made to the houor of God and memorie of S. Paula For Theodoretus reporteth as you beare me Lib. 4. cap. 10. witnesse that Ephrem made Hymnes and Psalmes in the Syrian tounge And that the same were songe at the solemne Feastes of Martyrs Lib. 4. ca. 29. Iew. 157 All Psalmes therefore were not the Psalmes of Dauid for Ephrem made new of his owne and the synginge of Psalmes at Paulaes funerall Here beginneth M. Iew. with his â—â—sses proue not but by Gheasse that they were part of the Common Seruice And therefore though ye haue brought foorth a place where mention is made of Psalmes in the Syrian tounge yet doe ye not satisfie our demauÌ„d and expectation whiche aske of Publike Seruice and looke to be playnly and euidently answered Ye adde vnto this a testimonie out of S. Augustine where he willeth the priestes to correct the errors of theyr Latine speache That the people vnto the thinge they playnly vnderstand may say Amen And what of this Iew. 156 This say you of S. Augustine seemeth to be spoken generally of all Tounges To whome seemeth it To your self I thinke and your cumpanie only An other gesse of M. Iew. And if to any other besyde it should likewise seeme so yet Seeming hangeth but vpon Gheasses and lykelihoodes And therefore is neither to be vsed of you which are to resolute to allege them neither to be named against vs which seeke now after your Euidences and perfect Instructions and must
is this What to doe Iew. 187 How loth or vnable rather M. Iewel is to shew any euidence Iew. 187 to aske for witnesses in a doubtfull matter And to loke for some steppe of a foote or token of highe way which thousand thousandes haue Ordinarily and Openly passed by But who is able to shewe anye Booke wrytten in Englyshe a thousande yeares a goe If ye can not shewe a whole booke yet shewe but a peece of the leafe of one Or some token or testimonye thereof that euer any such booke was vsed It foloweth Or if it could be shewed yet who were able to vnderstand it You may see then how vaine it is to thinke that the Apostles or their successors did commit the woorde of God to vulgare tonges which being so subiect vnto chaÌ„ges coulde not well be trusted with the preseruing of the true Scriptures For if the English Seruice which vndoubtedly if any suche had bene consisted of the holye Scriptures if it should haue had the scriptures translated into it there to be kept for the Christians in what case should we haue bene nowe being not able to vnderstande that English Or in what case shoulde the Scripture it selfe haue bene if as the propriety of the tongue was altered so it shuld again be interpreted to the capacity of euery generation Yet ye procede further There is no boke to be found of the prayers Iew. 187 that the Druides made in Fraunce or the Gymnosophistae in India And will M. Harding therof conclude that therfore the Druides or Gymnosophistae praied in Latine First how know you what may be shewed for the Gymnosophistes Prayers in India How long studied you there How narowly searched you Or what certificates haue you receiued of any man of credit from that Country Consider then that the Druides and Gymnosophistae were Idolatours no maruel therfore thoughe all their bokes and Superstitions be gone and consumed But the Christians Seruice in the Vulgar tounge pertaineth you will say to the substaunce of true religion and coulde not therfore be so broughte to nought that no monâ—ment therof should be remaining Or the Druides also and the Gymnosophistes we know some what the names at the least of them be preserued and what men these were we finde it expounded But of the Seruice in English before now of late who euer read who euer heard who euer thought Neither doth Doctor Hardinge reason with you after this sort There is no old boke to be found of the Seruice in Englishe It is his maner not so good as common ergo it was in Latine This is but a tricke of your Logike M. Iewel to alter the sense of your aduersary and forme his arguments after your pleasure But this rather is his reason If the Seruice had bene in Englishe considering the multitude of bookes and Churches some memory would be left of it But none is found Ergo by good consequence there was neuer any such Seruice And you to shift your handes of this argument doe make as though his only Demaunde were to haue Englishe bokes of the auncient Seruice brought forth and as though his conclusion should be if ye shewed not y e plaine bokes Ergo y t seruice was in Latin But that you may not escape so I will not aske you for Bookes nor Monuments nor Relikes nor tokens of the English seruice But in this one and reasonable and easy question to be answered I wold faine perceiue what sense you haue or vnderstaÌ„ding When you were borne and long before that the Seruice in England was in the Latine tonge If therfore it had not ben so from the beginning when began the Latine when ceased the English Doubtlesse sayeth D. Harding some mention would haue bene made of the time causes hereof Harding Fol. 88. For if in the smallest matters of the Church Seruice there haue ben found which haue noted the particulars as that Damasus caused the Psalmes to be soÌ„g by sides and Thelesphorus made Gloria in excelsis to be song and that S. Gregory added y e Anthems and Alleluya so in euery part of the Masse Is it possible y t so great a change of the publike Seruice from English into Latin should not be marked of any man or put in record by any wryter Was it done sodainly in the night when al were a slepe Or in the morning did euery man forget him self Or were there no wryters then Or were all corrupted Or was there no Heretike to leaue behind him a note of it but y t such an euident wonder ful chauÌ„ge of the whole Seruice froÌ„ English as you M. Iewel think into Latine should either not be espied or not coÌ„mitted to memory What aÌ„swer ye now vnto this Ye answer not one worde ye make M. Iew. duin and yet would not be knowen of it as though ye did not see it ye pull y e reader froÌ„ y t matter to the Druides of France Gymnosophistes of India ye speke as though D. Harding framed a direct argumeÌ„t for y â— Latine tounge asked you no question of the English Seruice Ye cry out O what a foly is this And as though al meÌ„ were foles for ye answer not one word to y e principal poynt You do not bring so much as a gesse a coÌ„iecture a likelihode You steale away though you be eied the questioÌ„ being so resonable you answer not one word to it WheÌ„ began y t Latin Seruice M. Iewel wheÌ„ ceased the English If there be any thing in record of it bring it forth if ther be nothing theÌ„ do I proue y t you are blind in these maters y t al y â— grace of your reply force of your lerning coÌ„sisteth in riâ—eling of other meÌ„s argumeÌ„ts an easy matter in Rhetorike not in coÌ„firming any of your owne which should not be to sekinge in a new Gospeller Thus haue I then discoursed with M. Iewel about the publike Seruice in the Syriacall Egyptian Ethiopian Persian Armenian Scythian Frenche or Britain tounge I haue asked whether he coulde proue any of these to haue bene vsed within the six hundred after Christ I haue requyred sure demonstrations because he contemneth Coniectures and Gheasses I haue coÌ„sidered both those common places of his pa. 155. 175. in which he bringeth the best and moste that he can say for the CoÌ„tentatioÌ„ and SatisfactioÌ„ of his reader I finde no mention of Publike Seruice in any tounge in the primitiue Church byside Greeke or Latine He proueth his matters by Gheasses he alleageth Authorities and Examples which were long sence the first six hundred yeres to which tyme we bounde him as he doth vs. I bring hym to the question of our owne couÌ„try and leaue him not one likely word which he might answer And so I trust he will be taken as he is for a mouer of contention about other meÌ„s right and possession him self hable to bring furth no
then their vulgar tongue And of the better sort how many there are which so know an other tounge beside their owne that they are not much the wiser for it You may see then how daungerous and sore a felow M. Iewel is Now concerning other two propositioÌ„s which M. Iewel hath with like Arte gathered out of D. Hardinges words about the Latine tounge as he hath done about the Greeke to make his craft more sensyble let D. Hardings own words be plainly set forthe After that theese Countreys Harding Fol. 59. saith D. Harding speking of y e west church had bene instructed in the Faithe as thinges grewe to perfection they had their Seruice accordingly No doubte such as was vsed in the Churches from whence their first Apostles and Preachers were sent And because the first Preachers of the Faithe came to these weast partes from Rome directed some from S. Peter some from S. Clement some others afterwarde from other Bishoppes of that sea Apostolike they planted and set vp in the Countries by them conuerted the Seruice of the Church of Rome or some other verye like and that in the Latine Tounge onlye for ought that can be shewed to the contrary Hereof may be gathered two Propositions The first PropositioÌ„s seruing to the question of Publike Seruice the weast Churches had suche Seruice as was vsed in the Churches from whence their first Apostles and Preachers came The seconde the firste planters of the Faithe came to these weast partes from Rome But how doth M. Iewel conceiue these matters His proufe sayeth he for the Latine Seruice hangeth vpon two poyntes The fyrste is that all the Faithe of the weast parte of the worlde came onlye from the Byshoppes of Rome First you be deceiued in your numbring because this is not the first Iew. 167 M. Iew. busy in changing shâ—fting and altering and adding but the seconde Proposition by D. Hardinges accompte Then in that second of D. Hardinges ye finde not these wordes AL THE FAITH OF THE WEST or these CAME ONLY FROM ROME For that had bene nothing else but to geue you an occasion to slip away from the Principall question and to enter into an endlesse nedelesse talke about AL THE FAITH to come from and to come ONLY from Rome Which because it was not geuen therefore you make it to your self of your owne wit And reason strongly in y e matter y t the faith came not into these quarters ONLY from because S. Paule planted the faith in England Nedelesse proues of M. Iew. and full of â—heasses and also Ioseph of Aramathea as is surmised by the Brittishe Chronicles And because we the Welshmen you meane being your selfe borne in Deuonsheere folowed the Church of Grecia in keping of Easter with such other mighty Argumentes TheÌ„ for the other part that AL FAITH came not from Rome ye presse vs sore with Tertullians authority that Hierusalem was the mother and the Springe of Religion as who should thinke that Iacob was not father of Ioseph because Iacob himself was begoten of Isaac and that Rome could not be mother of the Weast Churches because she her self had her Parents out of Hierusalem Or as though D. Harding had stayed vpon the question of AL FAITH and that ONLY from Rome which at all maketh no mention of AL or ONLyE So loosely you haue behaued your self in your first poynt let vs now consider your secoÌ„d The seconde is Iew. 167 that the Planters of the same faith ministred the Common Seruyce EVERY WHERE IN THE LATINE TOVNGE This is the first of D. Hardinges Propositions though M. Iewell make it the second poynt and in D. Hardinges words there is speciall mention neither of LATIN TOVNGE More chaÌ„ging and altering of M. Iew. neither of EVERY WHERE But generally he sayed it that suche Seruice was in these west partes as was vsed in the Churches from whence their first Apostles and preachers were sent And this might stand whether they came from Hierusalem Greece or Rome Wherfore he specified nothing vntill his seconde Proposition where out of this Principle he gathereth that because the faith came in to the Weast from Rome and they had the Latine Seruice therefore it should folowe by good reason that it was also deliuered in Latine where they planted the Christian Religion Consider now indifferent Reader how shamefully M. Iewel had disordered these matters Of fower plaine and credible propositions he hath made such a conueyaunce by Adding by Taking away by making of Particulars General by Drawing the Generall to special poynts by Making that first which is second by Promoting y e inferior vnto y e Superiors place y t he hath left nothing as he found it but as it wer of set purpose labored to make confusion The suÌ„me of M. Iewels conueiaunce in â—oure Propositions onlye Al y e people of some countries had their seruice in Greke saith D. Harding He wil proue saithe M. Iewel that ALL the Greke Church had it WHOLY THROVGHLY in the Greeke tounge Some whole Countries for y e more part vnderstode not Greke quod D. Hard. Some whole Countries vnderstoode not Greeke quod M. Iewel by his gathering The faith came into the west from Rome quod D. Harding Al the faith came only from Rome sayeth M. Iewel vpon it The plaÌ„ters of y e faith set vp in the CouÌ„tries by theÌ„ coÌ„uerted such Seruice as theÌ„ selues vsed quod D. Harding The planters of the same faith quod M. Iewel vpon it ministred the Common seruice EVERY WHER in the LATIN toÌ„ge What miserable shifting and changing is this What boldnesse in ventering What Ordinary course in deceiuing Yet this in dede is y e way to saue himself froÌ„ taking if he caÌ„ bring the questioÌ„ to such a Generality y t if he be driuen froÌ„ one place he mai flee to an other to make y â— aduersary weri of folowing the Reader weary of loking For suppose y e Latine Seruice were vsed in Aphrica y e vulgar people not vnderstanding it yet that is not EVERy WHER Suppose it were vsed in Fraunce yet neither y e proueth EVERy WHER Come nearer home to England and proue it to haue ben vsed there yet very much lacketh of EVERy WHER And so may M. Iewel like a bishop in deede not of Sarum but of the West Church go froÌ„ Country to Country in a straunge Visitation neuer make an end of Interrogatories InquisitioÌ„s vntil D. Harding shal satisfy his Lordship in al poynts and proue y â— EVERy WHERE IN THE WEST the Seruice was ministred in y e Latine tounge Which thing I do not say y t the Catholikes are not able to declare but be y t as it may be I note y e craft cuÌ„ning of M. Iew. which wold draw all things to such a generality or precisenesse of termes ALL FAITH ONLy FROM ROME EVERy WHER c. and in any part alter
shal be proued that you may well thinke vpon a direct answer I proue it by this consequence The fyrst profe of y e Maior in the principall argument afore saide All Asia the lesse was of the Greke church Ergo they had y e Seruice in the Greeke Tounge The consequence if you will doubt of it foloweth of that Rule A definitione ad definitum For after ye haue declared What the Greekes church 〈◊〉 what this word Church meaneth and founde that it includeth without exception all the nuÌ„ber of theÌ„ which through y e whole world confesse professe one God one faith and one Obedience after this I say when you come to y e particulars and define vnto vs what y e Greke Church is you shal be constrained to meane y â— society cumpany of the faithful whose publike Seruice is in y e Greeke tounge The antecedeÌ„t I neade not proue Iew. 164 least M. Iewel should cal it vanitas vanitatum tel vs y â— it is not denied neither of learned nor vnlearned And yet least he should interprete this my opinioÌ„ to be but for a shift and euasion I will shew him good cause wherefore I take it 159. For if M. Iewel find no fault with D. Harding for comprising within the name of the Greeke Church That couÌ„trie which properly is called Graecia Macedonia Thracia Asia y e lesse couÌ„tries adioining y e prouinces allotted to y e Patriarke of Alexandria in AEgypt and of Antiochia in Syria I can not feare y t he wil be lesse indifferent and quiet towards me which speak so much within my bounds and mention no other Countries belonging to the Greeke Church but only the lesse Asia Beside this your selfe M. Iewel diuide the Church not only into the Greeke and the Latine but also in to the Churches of Aethiopia Scythia India Arabia Syria Persia Media Armenia a great number of other countries In which part then of al these is Asia the lesse Not in the Latin Church not in the cumpasse of Aethiopia Scythia India Arabia Syria Persia Media Armenia or any other of y e great nuÌ„ber of Countries which you signify If it be in any name it vnto vs shew your Authority y t and if it be not as in dede it is manifest by y e borders whiche learned and experte Wryters doe note to be attributed and made vnto them then muste all Asia the lesse be of the Greke Churche And again if throughout al y e lesse Asia y e Publike Seruice had not ben in one coÌ„mon and currant Greke it must haue folowed y â— according to y e diuersity of tounges couÌ„tries therof a distinct interpretation of the Scriptures was also prouided for theÌ„ For the Publike Seruice consisteth chiefly of the Scriptures as the proper bookes of Christians whiche are to be either instructed Or furthered Or perfited in the lawe of God and as mooste proper for that place where all Prophane thinges sette a syde the Diuine Hystoryes Psalmes Gospels and LessoÌ„s are to be rehersed coÌ„sidered Will M. Iewel deny this how can he which is so redye to graunt it M. Iew. a falsifier of couÌ„cels 153. that the belieth two Councels of Laodicâ—a and of Carthage sayeing them to haue decreede that nothing must be redde in the Church to the people sauing only the Canonicall Scriptures Yet the Councel is not so but in prouiding that no other bookes should be red there as in the name of Scriptures but onlye the Canonicall Scriptures it declareth what a singular estimation and vse of them was in the Common Seruice of the Church This Seruice then consisting chiefly of Scriptures must not the people vnderstande it By M. Iewels Diuinitie they muste Ergo the tounges in which the Scriptures were then writen should be knowen vnto them And to bring this to passe looke how many seueral Countries were in the lesse Asia so many interpretacions of the Scriptures were made correspondent vnto them But what shal we nowe saye Of the interpretation of scriptures into Greeke For manye skore yeres after Christ there was in all the world but one Greeke interpretation of the Scriptures and that was made by seauentie Elders of y e Iewes in y â— tyme of Ptolomeus Philadelphus After which there folowed six interpretations the first of Aquila the second of Symmachus y â— third of Theodotio Euthymius in praesatione in Psalmos y e fourth had no certaine Author and was founde in Hiericho The fift was without Authors name found in Nicopolis The sixte was made by Lucianus the Heremite and Martyr and found in a tower of Nicomedia Consider now by this indifferent Reader how litle store and copy of Interpretations of Scriptures was then when of vij only so great accompt is made And howe litle haste was made to set them abrode which were so kept in by the Authors and howe great price was then made of them the finding of which is so singularly noted But let vs staye our selues vpon those first yeres in which there was no other interpretation of the Scriptures in y e Greeke Tounge but that of the Septuagintes In this case then did all Churches of Asia the lesse vse that Interpretation They must haue vsed it or else haue none Did all vnderstand it How is it possible the seuerall Countries and Tounges in Asia the lesse being at the least xiiij in number Forth then had some Churches no Seruice at all because they vnderstode not the Greeke of the Septuagintes Or Or had they such Seruice Here let M. Iew. shew hys knowledge in whiche nâ— Scripture was read Either ye must admit this absurdity either ye must hold your peace M. Iewel for lacke of answer either ye must subscribe and yelde to the Catholikes For if the Scriptures were then in no other Greeke tounge then that of the Septuagintes And if the vulgar people of diuers Countries and Languages in the lesse Asia vnderstode not that Greeke And if without the Scriptures the Publike Seruice be not made either the Seruice was in that tounge which all the Vulgare people of the lesse Asia did not vnderstand and then you must subscribe Or else in some Churches they had no Seruice because they had no Scriptures turned into the Vulgare tounge which is most absurde and vnreasonable Or else you muste secretely confesse it that you can not fynde what tounge they vsed in their Seruice or what you may answer to this Argument Thirdly I proue the Maior The. iii. proâ—e by an Induction In Smyrna in Pontus in Cappadocia in Lycaonia in Caria or Thracia â—t Sic de singulis and so in eche other Countrey of the lesse Asia the Seruice was in the Greeke tounge Ergo the Maior foloweth that all the lesse Asia had their Seruice in the Greeke tounge The Induction is good and lawfull as consisting of a sufficient Enumeration of particular Countries in
proprietie only yet they vnderstand not one the other as in example Hungarians Moscouites Polonians Sclauons Bohemians caet Also if you wil conclude vpon this because the kinde of tounge was one of some of them which are rehersed in the Actes of the Apostles that therfore they vnderstode one the other What miracle call you this to make men astonied at And that Cappadocians and Bythinians hearing the Apostles speaking vnto them in theyr owne Tounge vnderstoode them both at once Or howe could S. Luke so forget himselfe that to commend and set furth the greate worke and gifte of God shewed by y e tounges of the Apostles he would make a great mater of it and say that the inhabitants of PoÌ„tus Cappadocia Phrygia Pamphilia Asia wer amased astonied asking how do we euery one of vs here our tounge in which we were borne if in deede these had one naturall tounge vnderstode one an other sauinge for certein odd differences Cartainly if y e differeÌ„ce were smal the miracle must needs be smal which S. Luke telleth for greate If an English man knowing no other tounge byside his owne and a Welshman of y e like knowledge in his naturall tounge only shoulde come together to Diuinitye Schole in Oxforde and both of them vnderstaÌ„d y e Kinges Reader this were much to be wondred at but if there come to Paules Crosse out of eche Sheer in England seueral persons and vnderstand the Preachers English doe they loke one vpon an other for it do they woÌ„der at the working sprite in him and say howe doe we heare euery one of vs this fellowe whiche is borne an English man to speake our Vulgar tounge Yet no doubt there is a difference of speache betwen English men of diuers Sheers But it is not so great as to make a miracle when they Englishe men borne vnderstand the self same tounge in an English Preacher Now that in the Actes of the Apostles was a wonderfull Strainge and Diuine matter and y e grace and strength of it consisted herein that they whom for y â— purpose S. Luke rekeneth vp vnderstoode at one tyme a third person speakinge vnto them could not yet vnderstand eche the other speaking together Wherefore you may as wel confesse M. Iewel y â— al there expressed had a diuers language as y e some had M. Iew. what if hepeth nothing but a certaine differeÌ„ce only froÌ„ other therein Because y â— difference helpeth you so litle that we proue thereby y e tounge of Cappadocia Pontus and Asia to haue bene so muche distincte one frome y e other that the Common learned Greeke tounge which was vsed in the Churches of those selfsame couÌ„tries could not be vnderstaÌ„ded of euery vulgar maÌ„ womaÌ„ child of those couÌ„tries But let vs consider M. Iewels answer to the other Authority of the Actes of the Apostles that we may al vnder one coÌ„fute his oft repeted Iffinge and shiftinge To that of the Lycaonians thus he sayeth The people of Lycaonia spake vnto Paule and Barnabas Lycaonicè Ergo Iew. 164 saieth M. Harding they spake no Greeke This is one coÌ„mon trik of your Logike to peruerte and alter the intent of your aduersary A commoÌ„ tricke of M. Iew. D. Hardings coÌ„clusioÌ„ wil be this Ergo they vnderstod not the learned Greeke tounge for to this purpose he allegeth all his Authorities Therefore whether they spake Greeke or no that is not the mater but whether they spake or vnderstoode suche Greeke as the Scriptures and Church Seruice were then conteyned in Or such as we reade now in the workes and Liturgies of S. Basile Gregorie Nazianzene or Chrysostome Considertherfore M. Iewel how properly ye procede and argue But what if S. Luke had saied they spake Ionicê Iew. 164 Aeolicè or Doricê which tounges were adioyning fast vpon Lycaonia would he therfore conclude they spake no Greeke Here loe is a what if to further the cause But what seke you by it M. Iew. much deceyued in his auniÌ„g M. Iewel Subpose goe to that S. Luke in place of Lycaonicè had writen Ionicê what then would he therfore say you of M. Harding coÌ„clude they spake no Greeke No forsoth for he sought not after y e coÌ„clusioÌ„ And Alas therfore to take more iust pity of you then you can doe of others here hath M. Iewell loste a good Argument Againe he knoweth that the Greeke tounge is diuided by the learned therein in to fyue Dialectes of which Ionica Aeolica and Dorica are three and therefore he speaketh Greeke that speaketh in them but we haue no such warrant for the Lycaonicall Tounge Thirdly he might conclude y e al though they spake Greeke yet not that which is Attica or the pure and Common Greeke tounge in which two the Scriptures and old Fathers writings are set furth But what talke you of that whiche S. Luke might haue sayed and do not answer to that which he hath writen These toun ges say you meaning Ionica Aeolica Dorica were adioyning fast vpon Lycaonia An Idle reason or talke of M. Iew. I finde no fault with your Cosmographie but I see not what end ye bringe it to For Spaine is adioyning faste vppon France yet Spanish and French are two sundry languages And Lycaonia though it should stand in the myddest of Ionium or Aeolia it needeth not yet forget it felse and become Ionical or Aâ—olical Verely say you if a man by way of contention would say the Lycaonical tounge was a Corruption or differeÌ„ce of the greeke tonge and not a seueral tounge of it self M. Harding should haue much a do to proue the coÌ„trary So should he to proue that S. Peter was euer at Rome For what is so plaine or testified that a Contentious felow can not say or suppose somewhat against it But this way one would think you folow not your selfe and therfore you goe warely and wisely forward with Verely if a man caet Yet ye seeme to take as it were some cumfort of it that M. Harding shuld haue much adoe with a Wrangler if one would coÌ„tend with him And sodainly your selfe begyn to play that part in prouing that the Lycaonians should speake Greeke saying Doubtlesse they whorshipped Iupiter Here is to be learned how one might goâ— inthe way of concention But M. Iew. doth as 〈…〉 If 〈◊〉 c. And they had the Greeke Sacrifice as it appeareth by the wordes of S. Luke And it may be credibly gathered that Paule and Barnabas spake to them in Greeke Doubtlesse you haue well declared and pithâ—ly what a man would say by way of Contention Otherwise ye might by these reasons proue that y e Romanes also spake after a certaine corrupte kinde of Greeke because they worshipped Iupiter the God of the Greekes Alex. ab Alexand genidl dier li. 6 And had Greeke Sacrifice also as much as they of Lycaonia because S. Paule wrote to theÌ„
man I beleue can tell how to Call him so but Called him not so in deede Suppose it M. Iewel which is probable enough least by deuienge my case you should crst Alas then hath he lost a good argument suppose I say that A Catholike were before you And consideringe your owtward Behauior with Relation had to your Bookes Or otherwise takinge Occasion or Indignation would thinke you in his conscience to be an Hypocrite and A wrangler And therewith Offer to call you so except he veter so much by expresse word or writinge of his owne Or consent vnto it by saâ—e other mans mouth or hande couâ—d you with all your Lerned Councell be able to change 〈◊〉 therewithall and say that In deede he Called you not so but yet Offered so to doe No surely except ye had A Familiar which through his subtilitie of Nature is able to 〈◊〉 better of a mans intent and meaninge than the quickest person of sight and witt in all the word no mortall Creature is able to know what is within a man Returne then with your consideration vnto the fathers of the Chalâ—edon Coâ—â—cell If they Offered to Call y e B. of Rome vniuersall Bishop either that was perceaued by their wordes either by their writinge or some other plaine Signe If 〈◊〉 writinge that confirmeth the Popes Supremicie better then if they had but spokeÌ„ it because it tarieth longer and testifieth plainer If by wordes then vndoubtedly they Called him so But if they made but a Profer and did it not in deede who could tell you that their Profer had such a Sense and Meaninge in it whereas it is impossible to know particularly what an other thinketh except it be vttered of the partie him selfe by some word Or Signe as good as his word And bysides this If you can say that their Secret mind and wil was so bent and disposed toward the B. of Rome as you imagine how so euer you came by y e knowledge Yet this is manifest y e it must not be absurd for vs to geaue him a Singular Reuerence and 〈◊〉 whoÌ„ so Great Graue a Councel thought in their hartes to excell in authoritie aboue others therfore should Offer to signifie their good will to cal him Vniuersal bishop though in deede they Called him not so But who is the Author of this false taleâ— M. Iewel where had he it Of S. Gregorie as he sayeth But doth S. Gregorie say so be not these his very wordes Nomen OBLATVM est the name was OFFERED Doth it not serue the purpose of which he speaketh in those Epistles that the Name was in deede geauen to his Predecessors For he sayeth that they neuer consented to reaceue it But how could this be except that very Name which they refused had ben Offered for if they did but Offer to cal him so then did they not yet so cal him not callinge him by the name The forsayed shift vtterly taken awaie how could the other well refuse that which at all was not vttered But that this shift of Interpretation may not serue you marke what S. Gregorie writeth vnto the Bishop of Constantinople Lib 4. epist 38. VVere not the Bishops as your holinesse knoweth of this Apostolike see The B. of Rome called vniuersal Oblato honore which by Gods disposinge I serue and attend called by the reuerend CouÌ„cel of ChalcedoÌ„ VNIVERSALES VNIVERSAL by an Honor or Name not sought for but Offered Here M. Iewel ye haue that the B. of Rome were called so S. Gregory testifieth it his Authority you seeme to regard honor especially in this matter of Vniuersall Bishop Ergo your Assertion is false folowing the very word and Title which so Cowhartly and yet Braggingly allwaies you driue vs to finde And now therefore you must Subscribe Except you will flee from the word vpon which you haue hitherto so much sticked vnto your Meaning vpon the word Which we woulde sayne haue you to do but theÌ„ you could not crake as you haue done by setting forth your selfe vnder this bare Title of vniuersall Bishop or Head c. which now being found out against you you begin to seke more rome because you are pinched and to extende this word CALLED to signify SALVTED INTITLED PROCLAIMED but this Shift is not yet so currant Howbeit great feare there is leaste after an other boke set forthe as big as this whiche already is made by much turning of wordes yâ— will more often vse INTITLED and PROCLAIMED in steade of Called that the question may be not what was theÌ„â—one but what OPENLY and Ordinarily was INTITLED and PROCLAIMED But let vs coÌ„sider a plainer place against you and so discouer an other maner of shifting You sticke vpon the bare Fâ—ame and as long as the Equiualent and nâ—t y e same which you specified is brought forth ye insult still and egge your Aduersarye What wil you say now then wheÌ„ it shal be plainly shewed Athanasius IschyrioÌ„ Theodorus saluted S. Leo in three sundry Epistles by the name of Vniuersall Patriarche Ergo your Assertion is false and you must Subscribe How auoid you Mary ye coÌ„fesse it to be true But of that whole number of sixe hundred and thirty Bishops Iew. 298 there asseÌ„bled I trow M. Harding is not wel able to shew that any one euer Saluted or Called him so Why doe you take your question so that three honest mens Testimonies are not sufficient What a 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 but you must haue a whole CouÌ„cell to call the Pope Vniuersall Bishop Or els ye wil not be consuted You asked whether the B. of Rome was then called vniuersall Bishop Iew. â—â—0 And you limited it not within the coÌ„passe of Generall Councell Therfore if ye will sticke to the wordes you muste Subscribe Or els confesse that this was one of the shiftes which you kept in store But why should you refuse the Testimonies of Athanasius Ischyrion and Theodorus supposing that it were true y e in the Councel of Chalcedon no one called the B. of Rome Vniuersall Bishop The one of them Athanasius was a Priest the other two were Deacons But what of that You make light of them as though they were some abiectes of the world and say A straunge Priest Iew. 298 and two poore Deacons in their Priuate Sutes for their Goodes and Legacies named Leo the Vniuersall Bishop Ergo within six hundred yeares 〈◊〉 Christe there were that Called and 〈◊〉 the B. of Rome Vniuersall Bishop B. 〈◊〉 ye except against Priestes and Pore Deacons and suche as haue 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 ye will allowe none of the Cleargy for a witnesse except he be a Bishop and sit in a generall Councell Or a 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 Prelate Ergo here againe ye sticke not to the wordes of your question but 〈…〉 a Copy of another kind of your 〈◊〉 How say ye now then to S. Peter He was Bishop of Rome and he was called Heade of the
Churche Ergo a Bishop of Rome was called Head of the Churche Haue ye any shift for this argument But M. Harding knoweth the case is moued Iew. 308 not of S. Peter but specially and namely of the bishop of Rome But Master D. Harding inferreth that S. Peter was Bishop of Rome ergo your Assertion is false if you sticke to the bare Letter of your question and inuent not some otherway to eskape by But when wil M. Iewel be to seeking For I dout not sayeth he But M. Harding doth remember Iew. 309 that the question that lieth betweene vs riseth not of any Extraordinary Name once or twice geuen vpon some speciall Affection Shiftinge and lying but of the vsuall and knowen Title of the Bishoppe of Rome How shoulde he remember that whiche you were not so Gentle or Wise to tel him of Haue ye not alwaies pressed hym with bringing forth of the Name of vniuersal Bishop â–ª Haue ye not misliked with him for it that he would not be bound to shewe the Name though he brought as much in sense as the Name importeth This haue ye done through your whole Aunswer with extreme Craking and Insultation And now when to satisfy your fantasticall request he hath alleaged the very Names and Titles which you vaunted your selfe so much vpon as thoughe they were neuer able to be found in any wryter ye flee to the Interpretation and Limitation of your question and stick not to y e plain and Grammatical construction of it And now see the vanity your selfe are able to bring forth good Authoritye where some Bishop of the worlde was called vniuersall Patriarch Iew. 30â— Hipocrite and that not by shifting of Termes one for another but in plaine manifest and expresse wordes and suche as in no wise may be denied Say you so Why then haue you all this while made such a matter of findinge oute these Termes vniuersal bishop and hed c. as though you would straight waies subscribe and yeld if you might therein be answered And why say you so constantly in an other place This Name is the verye thing that we deny If your selfe haue the places for that purpose already prepared gathered vndoubtedly to the Greate Praise of Iew. â—06 your Note Boke why doe you with suche brauery demaund them of your Aduersaries Or with extreme Iniquitie make a Tumult and Stur in mens consciencies for that word in which your selfe do know you are but a Bragger For if the Bishope of Constantinople were called an Vniuersall Patriarch caet how could you mistruste but as much and with more reason might haue bene sayed of the B. of Rome which was as you confesse the Cheife of the four Patriaches Or how could you be so earnest in reprouinge of that Title which your wisedome confesseth for a Surplusage to shew your greate learning and study to haue bene geuen to baser persons then the B. of Rome is If your Conscience were open through your owne sincere and true Dealing Or if by the Authorities which we should allege you were constrayned outwardly to expresse what ye conceaue and coÌ„cele within then should it be euident in sight that ye passe no more for the Names of Vniuersall Bishope Or Head of the Vniuersal Church though a thowsand Fathers had geauen them to the B. of of Rome then you doe regard the Termes Realy Verely truly with such like M. Iew. seketh not peace and concord but conâ—eÌ„tion and sâ—â—ite when they are by Catholike writers attributed to Christes body in the Sacrament And like as wheÌ„ these words Principality Primacy Cheife Rule or Ruler are proued to haue ben spokeÌ„ by old Fathers of y e See of Rome or B. there you turne your selfe to some dictionary or EtimologicoÌ„ of your owne or others Iewel 244 say A Principal Church is sometime vsed of the Fathers in this sense to signifie a Ciuil dominioÌ„ or principalitie of a Citie Againe Primatus is vsed for any superioriti or prefermeÌ„t aboue others Againe Princeps in the latin toÌ„ge is ofteÌ„ vsed for a maÌ„ 245 that for his vertu or rome or any singular qualitie is to be had in estimatioÌ„ aboue others 246 To be short wheras you say being pressed to S. Ambrose authoritie which called Damasus y â— B. of Rome Iew. 306 The Rector gouernor of y e church Let vs coÌ„sider whether the selfâ—ame form of speach haue beÌ„ applied to any other in like sort By which shift you satisfie y e coÌ„moÌ„ readers vntil you be againe answered to your greater coÌ„fusioÌ„ so hauing in your bosoÌ„ Iam sure lik distinctioÌ„s expositioÌ„s wher Vniuersal B. Head of the church are sundry wayes vsed you wold neuer if you had ben aquiet 〈◊〉 louer of truth so loÌ„g haue coÌ„tinued in requiring those veâ—y Termes to be allegeâ— which as you do expound them proue not to you sufficieÌ„tly y e Popes Supremicy You affirme 194 that in deede in a kinde of speach both Rome and Antioche and other great Cities famous for Religion may be called the Head and Spring of the Gospel And what shal let you then to turne theÌ„ to phrases whatsoeuer Titles be found attributed to the B. of Rome so by a kind of speach to make that Common which is Singular Wherby it is manifest that ye maintain CoÌ„tention and put those thinges forth which you know to be Nedelesse and Weake and Feeble only to try perchaunce the strength of your Aduersaries to the CommeÌ„dation of your owne Learning Or Vttering of y t Notes which ye haue gathered Or to oppresse your Answerer wyth multitude of words and quarels y t for the very heaps of them being either not Answered at all Or answered not so speedily you might triuÌ„ph iâ— y â— meane space w t some probability For when y â— Catholikes alleage Termes of like force and Equiualent then wil you haue no other but the Names of Vniuersall Bishop and Head c and then the Name is the thing that you deny From oâ—e corner to an other And when those selues same very NAMES are brought before you then ye make as though it were no harde matter to haue founde them out but then bring you the lyke of your owne Motion and then you run to Limitations vpon your question and to Shiftinge frome one point to another declaringe thereby that your sense only is to be coÌ„sidered although ye peeked the quarell against the Word But where will you staie your selfe For if it were proued in most ample manner with al Conditions and Circumstances as you by Shiftinge haue nowe added to the Principall question that the B. of Rome was not called but Intitled and Proclamed not of Priests pore Deacons but of some Riche Prelates sitting in GENERAL COVNCEL and that not once or twise vpoÌ„ fauor but by an Vsuall and knowen Stile All this would not conuert M. Iewel For in
Iew. 11. Abdias in vita S. I homae 30. S. Matthei Iustinus Mart. Apol. 2. 37. Dionys Eccl. Hist cap. 3. S. Basil Lyturgie 38. S. Chrisostomes Lyturgie 42. S. Ignatius ad Philad S. Paul 2. Cor. 10. 78. S. Hierome 1. Cor. 11. S. Chrysost 1. Cor. Hom. 27. 94. S. August In Ioan. tract 26. S. Chrysostom 1. Cor. Hom. 24. S. Cyprian ad Magnum S. Cyril in Ioan. lib. 11. cap. 26. S. Hierom in Eccl. cap. 3. Iusti Martyr Apol. 2. Concil AgatheÌ„se cap. 60. epist Decret Syricij S. Hierom in 1. Cor. 11. S. Ambro 1. Cor. 11. Canon Apost cap. 9. And by the Canon law it selfe the authoritie whereof you doe despise De Consecr distin 2. Peracta distin 2. Episcopus distin 2. Si non distin 2. Si quis Bysides these you alleage S. Clement Ep. 2. S. Augustin lib. 2. de sermon Dom. in monte S. August in psal 16. Clemens Stro. lib. 1. S. Chrysos 1. Cor. Hom. 27. S. Chrysost 2. Cor. Hom. 18. S. Gregori Dialog lib. 2. cap. 23. And when you haue al done no maÌ„ doubteth of it What meaneth it then that you in so Many Places so Abundantly and so Exactly haue commended and set furth these two Conclusions Thought you the Catholikes to be so wicked that they would contemne the expresse Institution of Christ Or to be so ignorant of so coÌ„mon a matter as in the primitiue Church was and yet now still is the Communion TheÌ„ are yoâ— surely either euill disposed or simply practised But thought you it good to vtter howsoeuer it were what you had to say for these matters Verily then Of al naught chose the least and it would be amended 1 either you hoped thereby to make some thinke well of your Cunning and that was a crafty Inuention Or els without further respect to any your Vantage yow busied only your self in a Needelesse Matter And that was a plaine Vanitie Now if it was not neither for lack of Conscience in you nor for lack of Intelligence that you haue taken so greate a paine to proue moste vndoubted and cleare Conclusions it remayneth that you Answer my Obiection by some likely cause and reason And shew wherefore you haue bene so Longe and Tediouse in copiouse and oft repeted prouinge of a plaine Conclusion Vntill which tyme it is casie to be perceyued that these Common Places of yours keepe a Vaine and Superfluous sturr in your Replie to D. Harding * Note COncerning this later Common place so lernedly proued by M. Iewel beware of this One Argument There was alwaies a Communion in the Primitiue Church Ergo there was no Masse For as the world goeth now this word A Communion doth signifie either the act of some receiuing togeather either that proper kinde of Seruice which is now vsed in England at the Ministration of the Lordes Supper In the first of these two senses true it is that A Communion was I can not saie alwaies but no inconuenience wil folow if it be graunted that it was alwaies in the primityue Church And that it was very Common and Ordinarie the heape of the Authorities by M. Iewel rehersed doe make for it In the second It was neuer knowen in the primitiue Church And no One of al the places which M. Iewel hath gathered doth conteâ—e so much Againe concerning the first The ArgumeÌ„t is very false For euen at these daies A Masse and A Communion doe agree in sight together at such tymes as the People receiue with the Priest at the Altar Concerning the second the Argument is good but the Antecedent can neuer be proued that in the Primityue Church such a Single and Simple and Irreuerent and Dead Ministration of the Dyuine Mysteries was vsed then as is taken vp in the Englisshe Communion at this present Of M. Iewels Digressions CAP. II. Concerning now y e other kinde of your coÌ„moÌ„ places which I doe rightly call Digressions they are so frequented of you as though ye founde some speciall Cumfort in them after werinesse takeÌ„ in other thinges And they are so Outragious as though you went not for a Bishope of Sarisburie but were some SlauÌ„derous Fumisshe And vnlerned Protestant And to the matter proponed they are so Impertinent that you may Lawfully be charged with the fault of increasing your Replie with them Haue you so much Leasure M. Iewel to spend your labour in ExtrauagaÌ„tes Or if your Leasure serued you neuer so much haue you so litle discretion to occupie your tyme in naughtie and idle talke In your Answer to D. Hardinges Preface straitewayes you peeke out of y e Glose which is nor Scripture nor Canon Iew. fol. 1 pag. 1 nor Doctors sentence A Slaunder against the Pope And to make y t matter more odious you vtter it as spoken by the Pope him self with his owne mouth I can not err c. Which in deed neither he euer sayed neither they which spake it of him toke in such sense as you doe imagine Fol. 2. pag. 2. In the same answer you put D. Harding againe in remembrance of the Pope and you speake your pleasure of him alleging A Glose for your authoritie Pagina 2. 6. Of your Replie Againe yow be vp with the Pope To what greate Purpose Or vpon what Occasion your self perchaunce doe know but vnto vs it seemeth an vnreasonable and shamefull matter to Accuse anie Person out of the Lawful Court Out of Season and Reason And to speake against the Pope Cardinals Priestes c. when other questions are to be handeled Your part and dutie had ben to answer vnto D. Hardinges Argumentes And not to turne your mynde to finding of Faultes Remember yet how oft ye vse that Lewde figure of speaking against Thinges and Persons out of place As Pag. 11 Against The Clergie Pag. 16 Against Confession and Priestes Pag. 18 Against The Scholemen Pag. 24 Against The Ceremonies of the Church Pag. 39 Against The B. of Rome Pag. 40 Against The B. of Rome Pag. 52 Against S. Hierome Tertullian Origen against Reliques Pag. 56 Against Pope Cardinals Priestes Pag. 83 Against Miracles Pag. 92 Against Deuout answers of Priestes Pag. 189 Against The Pope Pag. 195 Against Aultars of stone Pag. 204 Against The Clergie and Churche This maketh your Sermons plausible and reâ—ysheth al your writinges Pag. 220 Against The Pope Pag. 221 Against The Pope Pag. 225 Against The Pope Pag. 234 Against Bishopes and Priestes Pag. 236 Against The Pope Pag. 248 Against The Pope Pag. 249 Against The Pope Pag. 258 Against The Popes Pag. 259 Against The Pope and Scholemen Pag. 262 Against The Pope Pag. 274 Against The Pope Pag. 275 Against The Pope Pag. 277 The Pope Pag. 278 Against Bonifacius the Pope Pag. 288 Against The Pope Pag. 289 Against The Bishope of Rome Pag. 297 Against The Pope Pag. 310 Against The Pope Pag. 317 Against Scholemen Pag. 313 Against The Pope How thinke
Places which you so ofte and thicke Expound your own meaninge if we M. 〈◊〉 haue missed doe bring againste the Pope are odious at the firste hearinge but when they shall be Considered and Answered either they shall he founde not to be so as you reporte either els to haue a true and Christian sense in them Therefore to presse vs w t them out of Place Season that we should not intend to answer theÌ„ that they so 〈◊〉 away for the present without Answer might hinder our cause in the iudgement of many a Reader it was craftely done and vnhonestlye As on the other side if you God wote meante no harme at all but without all immoderate Affection or Crafty cumpasse went plainely and directly forwarde in your matters only that your Replie might be full then haue you done grosselye and vnorderly To be shorte whatsoeuer and howsoeuer the causes be the Indifferent Reader may iudge of y e Effect and perceaue that they are vndoubted Digressions whiche you haue made from the question to Canons and the Gloses vpon theÌ„ and which I burden you withall And I burden you herewithall so much the more iustely and ernestly M. Iew. finâ—â—th fault with digressioÌ„s because your selfe are so Rigorous vppon lesse Occasion or none at all againste D. Hardinge For when he in the Article of Priuate Masse did put it as a sure Ground that the Masse or Vnbloudye Sacrifice was so manye wayes to the Proued that you coulde not withstande the Catholykes therein Hard. Fol. 25. And towched shortelye in a Leafe and a half the Authorities which dydde serue that Purpose of whiche he might haue made A Iuste Treatise and neuer haue gone byside hys Purpose yet that litle whiche he spake greeueth you so much that you say It is a simple kinde of Rhetorike Iew. p 12 to vse so large digressions frome the matter before ye once enter into the matter As who should say that the Author of a Treatise might not take what Order he would Or that to speake of the Masse were an Impertinent thinge to Priuate Masse Or that in the discussing of a compound it were not lawfull to open the nature of y e simple Or when two things are at one tyme yet couertly impugned to shew that the one of them standeth vppon sure ground thereby to discumforte the Aduersarie After like sorte of quarrelling whereas D. Harding concluded that Single Communion was not only suffered in tyme of persecution Hard. 38. but also allowed in quiet peaceable tymes euen in the Churche of Rome it selfe where true Religion hath euer bene moste exactly obserued caet M. Iewel greately offended herewith all and merueilinge as it were at the Matter But why doth M. Hardinge sayeth he Iew. 5â— thus out of reason rush into the Church of Rome that was longe agoe But why say you so M. Iewel Doth not the Argument which he maketh require that he should commend that See For Rome itselfe allowed sayeth he paiâ—ate Masse ergo it is the lesse to be douted of Whiche Argument because it will at these dayes seeme the worse the more that it dependeth of the Authoritie of that See could he doe lesse then bring one testimonie in the praise thereof and call you this a Russhing in thereto out of season But what should he haue done by your fyne aduise Mary say you See the malice to speake il of Rome he taketh it to be to some purpose and to speake wel therof he coÌ„pteth it out of season It had bene more to the purpose to haue vewed the state of the same Church as it standeth now Had it so And you being so Maliciously and wickedly disposed would the Authoritie thereof as it is now haue preuailed with you Lette anie indifferent man be Iudge whether it had bene aptlye done of D. Harding in warrantinge of Sole Receauinge as alowed in Rome to commend y â— ConsequeÌ„ce by telling the faults which may be founde in that Citie nowe rather then the testimony of the Bishopes of all Gallia whiche within the six hundred yeres after Christe acknowleged that from thence came the Fountaine and spring of theyr Religion Againe let any Indifferent man iudge whether M. Iewell hath Answered this prayse of the Bisshoppes of Gallia geauen so longe agoe vnto the Churche of Rome by his Accusinge of Bisshoppes Cardinales and Priestes Or by Lamentinge the case of Rome as S. Bernarde dyd Or by makinge of Prouerbes vppon it as Euripides sometyme dyd of the Citie of Athens Surely in this very place Is this the liberty of the Gospell or the Charitye of your Sprites where without cause he reproueth his Aduersarie for commendinge out of season as he iudgeth the See of Rome it is a greate shame to Rushe into Discommendation of Bisshoppes Cardinals and Priestes attendinge vppon that See And to like it better to Examine and Iudge the Present 〈◊〉 of Rome then to remember the Auncient Dignitie and Vertue thereof to confirmation of suche pointes as in those dayes were by it alowed Other places and Signes thâ—re are out of which I doe gather that M. Iewel can not abide Digressions as when he sayeth This Question is out of course Iew. 149 We may well suffer M. Hardinge to wander at large in matters that relieue him nothing 153. Iâ— it were lawfull for others so to doe it were no greate Masterie to write Bookes Again These be none of the maters that lie in Question M. Harding maketh a longe discourse of the Apostles caet 155. If he had shewed to what end we might the better haue knowen his purpose But to what end 160. For neither it is denied of vs nor it is any part of our question Which thinge neither is denied by me 180. nor any wise toucheth the question By these I am persuaded that he would haue y e matter it self folowed and loueth not to haue the time idelly bestowed Nowe though I am hable to declare that Doctour Hardinge in these pointes hath done no otherwise then he lawfullye might Yet to lette that passe I Conclude agaynste 〈◊〉 Iewell that of all thinges it is most Absurd in him that is so Precise with other Vnequall measure to be wide and large towardes him selfe in the selfe same kinde of thing for which though vniustlye he reproueth other And if Iew. 153. as M. Iewel confesseth it be no great mastery to wryte bookes if it be lawful to waÌ„der at large in matters that relieue not Let no man wonder at the worthynesse of him which hath wrytten so mightye a Reply considering that he runneth so far into Common Places and Rusheth so fowlye into dispraise of Popes Cardinals Priests and Church of Rome whiche neither maketh the new Gospellers the honester meÌ„ neither destroieth the Present and Auncient faith of the Catholike Church ¶ Of a thirde kinde of Common Places worse then any of
and allso the same Custome as it was neuer Vniuersally receiued so vpon better aduise by Order of the Churche it was cleane abolisshed For wise men in Goddes cause haue euermore mistrusted the Authority of Custome The Heretikes in old time named Aquarij that in the holy Ministration vsed Water onlye and no Wine It is vtterly vntrue for in his Epistles ad IubaianuÌ„ Qui rinum PoÌ„peiuÌ„ notwithstaÌ„ding they manifestly brake Christes Institution as our Aduersaries do nowe yet they vphelde their doinges therein by Long Custome But S. Cypriane being then aliue wrote thus against them Victi ratione Opponunt Consuetudinem quasi Consuetudo sit maior Veritate caet he speketh not agaiÌ„st aquarios but agaiÌ„st the Catholikes whiche by Custome and TraditioÌ„ consuted his Opinion concerninge Rebaptizing of them whom He 〈◊〉 had baptised before 97 Being ouercome with Reason they defende them selfe with Custome as though Custome were better then the truth We maie not prescribe of Custome but we must ouercome with reason Custome without truth is the Mother of errour Consuetudo Initium ab aliqua Ignorantia vel simplicitate sortita in vsuÌ„ per successionem corroboratur Sed Dominus noster Christus veritateÌ„ se non consuetudineÌ„ cognominanit c. Custome either of simplcitie If ye allow TertulliaÌ„ whi goe your maidens with open â—ace If ye alow hym not whye vse you his 〈◊〉 or of IgnoraÌ„ce geating once an entrie is inured and hardened by succession and is defended against the truth For Christ our Lord called himself Truth and not Custome Let them take hede therefore vnto whome the thinge seemeth new that in it self is old It is not so much the Noueltie of the matter as the Truth that proueth an Heresye Whatsoeuer sauoreth against the truth it is an Heresie be the Custome thereof neuer so old These foresayed Places are Pro Con. This that foloweth I can not tel where to set it Whether emong those that make for Custome or against it But as I find it so shal you haue it S. Augustine in this Caseys very reasonable his wordes be these Iew. 143 Vbi Authoritas desinit ibi Consuetudo Maiorum Pro lege tenenda est Where Authoritie faileth This seemeth in some Case to make for Custome But Consider what foloweth in M. Iewel But hauing Gods worde and CHrists Institution we want no Authoritie In what steede then shal any Custome stand vs where the rudest Protestant in A whole Countrie wil crake and bost of it that Gods worde is his warrant in al his procedinges But let vs goe to an other place For Fathers COncerning Auncient Fathers we commend them sufficiently when we defend them ernestly Or speake of them reuereÌ„tly And there needeth not a Texte for their praise owt of the Scriptures or Auncient Historie when our selues doe actuall tender their Integritie of Estimation And speake many faire and good wordes of them So doth M. Iewel Sometymes Complainyng or sorowing that thei are not rightly alleged As For proufe hereof M. Harding allegeth the Authoritie of Dionysius wherein he doth Iew. 26. Greate wronge to that GOOD OLD FATHER c. Hypocrite Sometymes requiring theÌ„ to be brought furth and beleued As The mater being so weightie and not yet thoroughly beleued Iew. 23. it had ben good for M. Harding to haue made profe thereof by the authoritie of S. August S. Hierome or some other OLD CATHOLIK Doctours At an other tyme Gentelly intreatyng the Reader to consider the place of the Doctour and so sweetly leading hym by reasoble request that he can not chuse but conceiue much of the worthines of the Father As Good Christian Reader Yf thou haue Chrysostome peruse this place Iew. 269 and weigh wel his wordes If thow haue hym not yet be not ouerhastie of beleife At an an other tyme againe Vehemently inueighing against his Aduersarie as though he dyd not esteme the Fathers Which although D. Harding in that place doe not yet M. Iewel in takyng hym vp for it as if he had done it declareth thereby his Zelous Affection towardes them As I alleged the saieing of S. Basyle Iew. 169 That the Church c. The saieing of S. Hierome That the noise c. Lykewyse the saieing of Chrysostome Common Petitions c. But WHAT THEN saieth M Harding Why WHAT THEN Thinketh M Harding that the Authoritie of Arnobius S. Ambrose S. Augustine S. Hierome S. Chrysostome And other holie Fathers is so light that he is hable to blow them al awaie with these two vaine Sillables WHAT THEN To be short when hymselfe directly estemeth them it moueth the Reader to thinke also wel of them As in Example S. Augustine is verie REASONABLE Iew. 14. Verily Gregories Authoritie in this case were right good 188. if he would saie the word It is S. Ambrose Interpretation 199. With other lyke Phrases To this place it maye also be referred when he craueth ernestly for the expresse wordes of the Fathers As. If the holy Fathers had so belewed Iew. 148. they had wordes and were hable to vtter it Was there no man then in the world 302. for the space of six hundred yeres hable to Expresse his name As though he would saie Al the olde Fathers of the Churche 306. bothe Greekes and Latines wanted wordes and Eloquence and either they could not or they durst not Cal the Head of the Church by his owne peculiar name As who should saie that M. Iewel is so addicted to the Fathers that if any one of them saie the worde he Subscribeth and yeldeth Against Fathers FAther 's because thei are many in numbers therefore to make the matter more easie for the Conquering of them it ys politikely done to set furth a General Exception against them except they appeere by a certaine daie which is before the 600. yere after Christ shal be gone or Expired for in deede how M. Iewel taketh the six hundred yere I can not yet redily tel As Iew. 123 Dionysius one of late yeres and therefore Lead awaie with many errours S. Bernard is A Doctour but of Late yeres 116. Therefore his authoritie We must weigh the Lighter An other policie ys to cause the Alleaging of Fathers to be generally suspected As There ys no way so easy to beguile the simple Iew. in his preface to the reader as the name and countenance of AuncieÌ„t Fathers The Arian Heretikes alleged for themselues the Auncient Father Origenâ— the Nestorian Heretiques alleged the Councel of Nice The Donatian heretiques alleged S. Cyprian The Pelagian heretiques alleged S. Ambrose S. Hierome and S. Augustine And Dioscorus the heretike alleged Gregorius Cyrillus and Athanasius and compleined openly in the Councel euen in lyke sort and as iustly as M. Iewel doth now Ego defendo dogmata sanctorum Patrum In Con. Chalc. Act. 1. Ego illorum habeo testimonia noÌ„ obiter nec in traÌ„scursu
be broughte out of M. Iew. workes especially Pa. 250. 267. and. 286. But by what Primate Patriarche or high Bishop would he be ruled which putteth the Spirituall Gouernment of the Church in the handes of Temporall Princes and maketh euery Bishop the Vicar of Christ In such sort as if there were no higher or better person then he for Authority in all the world And therefore iâ— these poynts hitherto there wil be no hold or stay For Succession But perchaunce all thinges shal be determined by Succession Iew. 277. For Irenaeus sayeth Presbyteris illis c. We ought to obey the Bisâ—ops in the church that haue their succession from the Apostles which together with the succession of the Bishoprike haue receiued the certaine gifte of the Trnthe according to the will of the Father This in deede would serue if it were coÌ„sidered but M. Iewel liketh it not For in the next side before he saith of y c Pope c Against Succession THey Feast and cheare them selues Iew. 276. and Smothe the world with vaine talke But S. Ihon sayeth Nolite dicere c. Matth. 3. Neuer say Peter or Abraham was our Father S. Paule speaking of his Successors saith thus Act. 20. Equidem Scio. c. I know that after my departure from you there shall Rauening wolues come amongest you that shall not spare the flocke And S. Hierome sayeth Dist 40. NoÌ„ est fa. Non sunt sanctorum filij c. They be not euermore the Children of holy men that sit in the roomes of holy men But notwithstanding all these foresaide perplexities and doubtes at length I trow we shall come to some Resolution and quietnesse For the word of God and the scripture shall be the Iudge And yet here also is a great vncertainty For M. Iewel for the most part appealeth to y e expresse worde in the Scripture His Reply is full of his bragges therein and with suche faire promises the greater sort is seduced One example in a matter so manifest is sufficient As For the VVorde of God or Scripture SPeaking of the Scholemens conclusyons about Christes presence vnder the formes of bread and wine he sayeth We may not here accompt Iew. 99. what may be in either of them by drift of vaine fantasie but rather we ought to consider what Christ in the first Institution thereof did and what he commaunded to be done Here loe he refuseth to haue the sense discussed but sticketh to the bare text But it wil not be allwaies so as appereth by these Examples Against the VVorde of God or Scripture CHrist did not therefore so abase himselfe to washe his Disciples feete Iew. 117. to the intent they according to the letter should doe the same but in himselfe to shewe them a perfite Example of humility c. In like manner Math. 18 10. 8 Christ set a Childe before his Disciples and willed them all to be as Children He bad them to shake of the dust from their Shewes and to cary neither Rod nor Scrip about them and to salute no man vpon the way not that they shoulde practise these thinges according to the rigoure of the wordes but to the intent that by the same they mighte be induced to a deeper vnderstanding And S. Hierome sayeth Iew. 150. Whosoeuer vnderstandeth the Scriptures Hieron ad Gal. li. 3. ca. 5. otherwise then the sense of the holy Ghost requireth by whiche holye Ghost the Scriptures were wrytten although he be not yet departed from the churche yet he maye well be called an Heretike The sense rather and the meaninge of the Scriptures is to be taken Iew. 198. Orig. ad Ro. ca. 3. li. 3. Iew. 211. then the wordes To say The word of God only because it is wryten or spoken is auaileable of it selfe without vnderstanding is a Superstitious and Iewishe kinde of foly Let vs make nowe an end of this Chapiter for there is no ende of questionynge and altering as farre as is to be learned of M. Iewel And my Deduction or Argument is short When the Sonne of man commeth shall he fynde think you faith vpon the earthe Lucae 18. If the sense of the Scripture be the thing that is to be honoured and folowed And if that Seâ—se is not to be perceiued of euerye one that vnderstandeth the Grammatical construction and exposition of the wordes we muste learne it of some body biside our owne selues And they of whome we learne it must be suche as vpon whose Authority we may builde and neuer chaunge But neither by Fathers nor Councels nor Customes nor present state of Bishops nor by the texte it selfe of the Scripture that Authoritye can be established for by Maister Iewels accompte neuer a one of them dothe fullye satisfye in any mater ergo we are left vppon this reckening alltogether vnquiet and to seeking where to staye our Consciencies Is not this a perfecte Religion Or is not this a skilfull Professor of it by whome it is brought to passe that no Faithe at all can be appoynted vnto vs The Catholike yet may sone be in quiet For obeying that visible Churche of which the Pope is a visible heade he leaueth to the determination of it all thinges perteining to Councels Customes Fathers and Scriptures But these felowes that know not What to followe or forsake but by the Testimonye of Councels Customes Fathers c. and yet dare not fully trust those selfe same thinges or persons which are their guides what a miserable case are they in coÌ„cerning them selues and how Artificially doe they take Faithe cleane away in some and weaken it exceadingly in other BEWARE therefore of them by time Indifferent Reader And concerninge the stedfastnesse which should be of Faithe be not made alltogeather Indifferente throughe this laste and worste kind of M. Iewels Common Places Thus hauing declared euidently that M. Iewells greate boke in Quantitie is of simall matter in substance and that his Common places and Digressions are so many that his straite folowing of the question and his direct Answers to the purpose must be sone rekoned I trust the Indifferent Reader will BEWARE of him and not muche maruell at that Boâ—lke where litle Corne is sure to be found Nor thinke those vessels to be ful whose bourdes are longe and whopes of greate cumpasse Now to make his behauiour more plaine yet and manifest let vs come to certaine other Specialties and loke more particularly into his boke And firste it shal be worth the while to consider how M. Iewell hath ordered D. Harding In Peruerting his meaninge In disgrating his Authorities In Wranglinge with him In Dissimbling and butting with him In Refelling one truth by an an other And in Courteous as they say Reportinge of him Which ended I wilcome in y e third boke to other men as Auncient Fathers Later Doctours and so furth shortly prouing it vnto thee Indifferent Reader that M. Iewell hath
settling of their myndes consciencies to the Positions and Answeres of a man so contentiouse As on the other side if these so manifest Examples proue not plainely what you are it profiteth not to bring more copie where store sufficient is not considered Of the Buts Which M. Iewel vseth with D. Harding CAP. VII THe marke that M. Iewel shooteth at is to Refel D. Hardings answer which how many wayes he hath pricked and roued at as also how artificially he hath bestowed his strength therein I haue by example declared And now I thinke it good to shew what buts he vseth Such buts of his I meane which like an Hypocrite he would seeme to haue set vp of his own motion where as in deede D. Harding had made them vnto him before that he should not al at pleasure Roue or hobbe abrode at euery marke y t liked his fansie As in Exāple D. Har. thought it good before he should speak of Sole receiuing or priuate Masse shortly to alleage such authorities by which y ◠Masse or Sacrifice of y e new testastament was cōfirmed Against which M. Iew. speaketh his worst proueth three leaues together y e either the witnesses be not lawful either that they proue not Priuate Masse Now the Trueth being this y ◠D. Har. brought thē not in to confirme Priuate Masse M. Iewel therefore least he might seeme to haue taken his Marke amisse so long togeather as three leaues are in his Replie he commeth as I saie from Rouing abowte the mater to the very state thereof saieinge BVT he wil saie The first Example Iew. 12. wel shott he alleged al these doctours to an other purpose to proue the Sacrifice Wil he saie so M. Iewel and hath he not rather saied it alreadie Are not these his expresse wordes that although you in a printed Sermon Har. 24. and preached at Poules Crosse pretend enemitie against Priuate Masse in word yet in deede that you extēd your whole witt and cunning vtterly to abolisshe the vnbloudy and dayly Sacrifice of the Churche And hereupon doth not he name shortly the Authorities by which he might proue the vnbloudy Sacrifice In the end of which maketh he not a transition saieing Now this presupposed that the Masse standeth vpon good and sufficient groundes let vs come to our special purpose saie somewhat o◠Priuate Masse What vanitie then was it of yours M. Iewel to make so greate a talke against the witnesses alleged that they proue not Priuate Masse for which yet they were not brought and how like an Hypocritie come you in with your But he wil saie he alleged al these Doctours to an other purpose whereas D. Harding so plainely declared it that in deede he vsed them not for profe of priuate Masse but only of the dayly and vnbloudy Sacrifice After a like sort The 1. Example concerning the nūber of Canons which were made in the first Nicene Councel you aske this question and to seeming oppose your Aduersarie with it saieing What leadeth M. Harding to saie Iew. 239 The bishope of Rome hath these three score and ten Canons in safe keeping Why doth he thus dissemble and mocke the world Certainely the bishope of Rome himselfe disclameth it and saith he hath them not for thus he writeth touching the same There are in the Church of Rome only twentie Canons of the Councel of Nice By what negligence the rest are lost it is not knowen The Pope saieth there are but twentie Canons extant M. Harding saieth there are three score and ten Canons I trow it is no reason we should beleue M. Harding and leaue the Pope It is no reason in deede Yet if they speake not contrarie one to the other then is it no Reason that you should in such sort handle the mater as though thei were repugnant For true it is that as y e Pope saied there are but twentie Canons extāt yet y t there were once more then twentie it appereth by these wordes which folow immediatly By what negligence the rest are lost it is not knowen Also that there were in Tyme Past three score and ten Canons of the Councel of Nice Har. 104. true it is and so it is saied of D. Harding but that there are at this Present Tyme so manie he saieth it not though you boldly report it of hym to make A Contradiction betwene hym and the Pope Now maie we thinke that you perceiued not this much by yourselfe Yeas without al doubt you dyd and therefore not ignorant that you had ouershott your selfe and that the Catholike would bring you from your Rouing to certaine and set Markes yourselfe come welfauoredly to them and saie BVT Steuen the Bishope of Rome saieth there were sometyme in Rome the ful three score and ten Canons O M. Iewel doe you see that this wil be your Answer Or rather that so much is included in the wordes of Pope Stephanus And yet dyd you bring his Testimonie in to proue D. Hardings report false which saied no more then that the whole number of these three score and ten Canons was kept diligently in the Church of Rome Tel vs now who dissimbleth Or who mocketh the world And therefore was not this BVT of yours first consydered before you dyd so sharply inueigh against D. Harding For both the Pope and he speakyng of the Tyme Past it is true that three score and ten Canons of the Nicene Councel were in Rome And the Pope speakyng of the tyme Present that twentie only are extant is not contrarie to hym that speaketh of y t Tyme Past saieng that three score and ten Canons were kept in Rome And therefore it may be iustly returned vpon you againe M. Iewel that Non satis commodè diuisa sunt temporibus tibi Daue haec Iew. 237 Let vs bring an other Example The third Example To proue the Souerantie of the Churche of Rome D. Har. allegeth S. Iren. saieing Iren. lib. 3. cap. 3. Ad hanc ecclesiam propter maiorem principalitatem c. To this Church of Rome it is necessarie all the Churches that is to saye al that be faithful any where to repaire come togeather for the mightier Principalitie of the same In answering to this testimonie first saieth M. Iewel Irenaeus speaketh not of the Supremacie Rouing Then saieth M. Iewel againe Irenaeus writeth only against Valentinus tinus Cerdon and Marcion old Heretikes whom he biddeth for trial of their doctrine to behold the Churches which the Apostles planted After this he telleth vs y ◠Ireneus resteth specially vpon the Example of the Church of Rome by this rouing he would haue it thought that he hath not Answered nothing And then it foloweth But they wil Replie Irenaeus saieth propter maiorem principalitatem Iew. 244 Hypocrite Haue ye founde it now at length and dyd ye not perceaue at the first alleging of Ireneus y ◠y ◠force of