Laws and of inflicting Punishments then him that pretendeth only to a Right of making Canons that is to say Rules and no Right of Coaction or otherwise Punishing but by Excommunication B. But the Pope pretends also that his Canons are Laws and for Punishing can there be a greater then Excommunication supposing it true as the Pope saith it is that he that dies Excommunicate is damn'd which supposition it seems you believe not else you would rather have chosen to obey the Pope that could cast your Body and Soul into Hell then the King that can only kill the Body A. You say true for it were very Uncharitable in me to believe that all English men except a few Papists that have been born and called Hereticks ever since the Reformation of Religion in England should be damn'd B. But for those that dye Excommunicate in the Church of England at this day Do you not think them also Damn'd and he that is Excommunicate for Disobedience to the Kings Law either Spiritual or Temporal is Excommunicate for Sin and therefore if he Dye Excommunicate and without desire of Reconciliation he Dies Impenitent you see what follows But to Dye in Disobedience to the Precepts and Doctrine of those men that have no Authority or Jurisdiction over us is quite an other Case and bringeth no such danger with it B. But what is this Heresie which the Church of Rome so cruelly persecutes as to Depose Kings that do not when they are bidden turn all Hereticks out of there Dominions A. Heresie is a word which when it is used without Passion signifies a private Opinion so the different Sect of the Old Philosophers Academians Peripateticks Epicureans Stoâ—â—ks c. were called Heresie But in the Christian Church there was in the signification of that word comprehended a sinful opposition to him that was chief Judge of Doctrines in order to the Salvation of mens Souls and consequently Heresie may be said to bear the same Relation to the power Spiritual that Rebellion doth to the power Temporal and is sutably to be persecuted by him that will preserve a power Spiritual and Dominion over mens Consciences B. It would be very well because we are all of us permitted to read the Holy Scriptures and bound to make them the Rule of our Actions both publick and private that Heresie were by some Law defined and the particular Opinions set forth for which a man were to be condemned and punished as Hereticks for else not only men of mean capacity but even the wisest and devoutest Christian may fall into Heresie without any will to oppose the Church for the Scriptures are hard and the interpretations different of different men A. The meaning of the word Heresy is by Law declared in an Act of Parliament in the First Year of Queen Elizabeth wherein it is ordained that the Persons who had by the Queens Letters Patents the Authority Spiritual meaning the High Commission shall not have Authority to Adjudge any Matter or Cause to be Heresy but only such as heretofore have been Adjudged to be Heresy by the Authority of the Canonical Scriptures or by the First 4. General Counsels or by any other General Council where the same was declared Heresy by the express and plain words of the said Canonical Scripures or such as hereafter shall be adjudged Heresy by the High Court of Parliament of this Realm with the assent of the Clergy in their Convocation B. It seems therefore if there arise any new Error that hath not been yet declared Heresy many such may arise it cannot be Judged Heresy without a Parliament for how foul soever the error be it cannot have been declared Heresy neither in the Scriptures nor in the Councils because it was never before heard of and consequently there can be no Error unless it fall within the compass of Blasphemy against God or Treason against the King for which a Man can in Equity be punished Besides who can tell what is declared by the Scripture which every man is allowed to read and interpret to himself nay more what Protestant either of the Laity or Clergy if every General Councel can be a competent Judge of Heresie is not already condemned for divers Councels have declar'd a great many of our Doctrines to be Heresie as they pretend upon the Authority of the Scriptures A. What are those points that the first four General Counsels have declared Heresie B. The first General Councel held at Nicaea declared all to be Heresie which was contrary to the Nicene Creed Upon occasion of the Heresie of Arrius which was the denying the Divinity of Christ the Second General Counsel held at Constantinople declar'd Heresie the Doctrine of Mâ—cedonius which was that the Holy Ghost was created The Third Counsel assembled at Ephesus condemned the Doctrine of Nestorius that there were two persons in Christ. The Fourth held at Calcodon condemned the Error of Emtyches that there was but one nature in Christ. I know of no other Points condemned in these 4 Counsels but such as concern Church-Government or the same Doctrines taught by other Men in other words And these Counsels were all called by the Emperors and by them their Decrees confirmed at the Petition of the Counsels themselves A. I see by this that both the Calling of the Counsel and the confirmation of their Doctrine and Church Government had no obligatory force but from the Authority of the Emperor how comes it then to pass that they take upon them now a Legislative Power and say their Canons are Laws That Text all Power is given to me in Heaven and Earth had the same force then as it hath now conferred a Legislative Power on the Counsels not only over Christian men but over all Nations in the world B. They say no for the Power they pretend to is derived from this that when a King was converted from Gentilism to Christianity he did by that very Submission to the Bishop that converted him submit to the Bishops Government and became one of his sheep which Right therefore he could not have over any Nation that was not Christian. A. Did Silvester which was Pope of Rome in the time of Constantine the Great converted by him tell the Emperor his New Disciple before hand that if he became a Christian he must be the Popes Subject B. I believe not for it is likely enough if he had told him so plainly or but made him suspect it he would either have been not Christian at all or but a Counterfeit one A. But if he did not tell him so and that plainly it was foul play not only in a Priest but in any Christian And for this Derivation of their Right from the Emperors consent it proceeds only from this that they dare not challenge a Legislative power nor call their Canons Laws in any Kingdom in Christendom farther than the Kings make them so But in Peru when Atabalipa was King the Fryâ—r told
it is for a State to have their Subjects confess their secret thoughts to Spies B. Yes as much as Eternal Torture is more terrible than Death so much they would fear the Clergy more than the King A. And though perhaps the Roman Clergy will not maintain that a Priest hath power to remit Sins absolutely but only with a condition of Repentance yet the people were never so instructed by them but were left to believe that whensoever they had Absolution their precedent Sins were all discharged when their Penance which they took for Repentance was performed in the same time began the Article of Transubstantiation for it had been disputed a long time before in what manner a man did eat the Body of our Saviour Jesus Christ as being a point very difficult for a man to conceive and imagine clearly but now it was made very clear that the Bread was Transubstantiated into Christs Body and so was become no more Bread but Flesh. B. It seems then that Christ had many Bodies and was in as many places at once as there were Communicants I think the Priests then were so wanton as to insist upon the dulness not only of common people but also of Kings and their Councelors A. I am now in a Narration not in a Disputation and therefore I would have you at this time to consider nothing else but what effect this Doctrine would work upon Kings and their Subjects in relation to the Clergy who only were able of a piece of Bread to make our Saviours Body and thereby at the hour of death to save their Souls B. For my part it would have an effect on me to make me think them Gods and to stand in awe of them as of God himself if he were visibly present A. Besides these and other Articles tending to the upholding of the Pope's Authority they had many fine points in their Ecclesiastical Policy conducing to the same end of which I will mention only such as were established within the same time for then it was the Order came up of Preaching-Friars that wandred up and down with power to Preach in what Congregation they pleased and were sure enough to instil into the people nothing that might lessen their obedience to the Church of Rome but on the contrary whatsoever might give advantage to it against the Civil Power besides they privately insinuated themselves with Women and Men of weak judgments confirming their adherence to the Pope and urging them in the time of their sickness to be beneficial to it by contribution of Money or building Religious Houses or works of Piety and necessary for the remission of their Sins B. I do not remember that I read of any Kingdom or State in the World where liberty was given to any private man to call the people together and make Orations frequently to them or at all without first making the State acquainted except only in Christendom I believe the Heathen K. foresaw that a few such Orators would be able to make a great Sedition Moses did indeed command to read the Scriptures and expound them in the Synagogues every Sabbath day but the Scriptures then were nothing else but the Laws of the Nation delivered unto them by Moses himself I believe it would do no hurt if the Laws of England also were often read and expounded in the several Congregations of English-men at times appointed that they may know what to do for they know already what to believe A. I think that neither the Preaching of Friers nor Monks nor of Parochial Priests tended to teach men what but whom to believe for the Power of the Mighty hath no foundation but in the opinion and belief of the people and the end which the Pope had in multiplying Sermons was no other but to prop and enlarge his own Authority over all Christian Kings and States B. Within the same time that is between the time of the Emperour Charles the Great and of King Edward the Third of England began their second Policy which was to bring Religion into an Art and thereby to maintain all their Degrees of the Roman Church by Disputation not only from the Scriptures but also from the Phylosophy of Aristotle both Moral and Natural and to that end the Pope exhorted the said Emperour by Letter to erect Schools of all kinds of Literature and from thence began the Institution of Universities for not long after the Universities began in Paris and in Oxford It is true that there were Schools in England before that time in several places for the instruction of Children in the Latine Tongue that is to say in the Tongue of the Church but for an University of Learning there was none erected till that time though it be not unlikely there might be then some that taught Philosophy Logick and other Arts in divers Monastries the Monks having little else to do but to study After some Colledges were built to that purpose it was not long before many more were added to them by the Devotion of Princes and Bishops and other wealthy men and the Dicipline therein was confirmed by the Popes that then were and abundance of Scholars sent thither by their friends to study as to a place from whence the way was open and easy to preferment both in Church and Commonwealth The profit the Church of Rome expected from them and in effect received was the Maintenance of the Pope's Doctrine and of his Authority over Kings and their Subjects by School Divines who striving to make good many points of Faith incomprehensible and calling in the Phylosophy of Aristotle to their assistance wrote great Books of School Divinity which no man else nor they themselves were able to understand as any man may conceive that shall consider the writing of Peter Lombard or Scotus or of him that wrote Commentaries upon him or of Suarez or of any other School Divines of later times which kind of Learning nevertheless hath been much admired by two sorts of men otherwise prudent enough The one of which sorts were those that were already Devoted and really affectionate to the Roman Church for they believed the Doctrine before but admired the Arguments because they understood them not and yet found the Conclusions to their mind The other sort were negligent men that had rather admire with others than take the pains to examine so that all sorts of people were fully resolved that both the Doctrine was true and the Pope's Authority no more then what was due to him I see that a Christian King or State how well soever provided he be of Money and Arms where the Church of Rome hath such authority will have but a hard match of it for want of men for their Subjects will hardly be drawn into the Field and fight with courage against their Consciences A. It is true that great rebellions have been raised by Church-men in the Pope's quarrel against Kings as in England against King John and in
or Ministers or Assemblies that Govern the Church under him or them that have the Soveraign Power B. Some doubts may be raised from this that you now say for if men be to learn their Duty from the sentence which other men shall give concerning the meaning of the Scriptures and not from their own Interpretation I understand not to what end they were Translated into English and every man not only permitted but also exhorted to read them for what could that produce but diversity of Opinion and consequently as man's nature is Disputation breach of Charity Disobedience and at last Rebellion Again since the Scriptures were allowed to be read in English why were not the Translations such as might make all that 's read understood even by mean Capacities Did not the Jews such as could read understand their Law in the Jewish Language as well as we do our Statute Laws in English and as for such places of the Scripture as had nothing of the Nature of a Law it was nothing to the Duty of the Jews whether they were understood or not seeing nothing is punishable but the Transgression of some Law The same question I may ask concerning the New Testament for I believe that those Men to whom the Original Language was natural did understand sufficiently what Commands and Counsels were given them by our Saviour and his Apostles and his immediate Disciples Again how will you answer that question which was put by St. Peter and St. John Acts 4. 1◠when b◠Ananias the High-Priest and others of the Council of Jerusalem they were forbidden any more to teach in the name of Jesus whether is it right in the sight of God to hearken to you more than unto God A. The Case is not the same Peter and John had seen and daily conversed with our Saviour and by the Miracles he wrote did know he was God and consequently knew certainly 〈◊〉 their Disobedience to the High Priests present command was just Can any Minister now say that he hath immediately from God's own Mouth received a Command to disobey the King or know otherwise than by the Scripture that any Command of the King that hath the form and nature of a Law is against the Law of God which in divers places he directly and evidently Commandeth to obey him in all things The Text you cite doth not tell us that a Minister's Authority rather than a Christian King 's shall decide the questions that arise from the different Interpretations of the Scripture And therefore where the King is head of the Church and by consequence to omit that the Scripture it self was not receieved but by the Authority of Kings and States chief Judge of the Rectitude of all Interpretations of the Scripture to obey the King's Laws and publick Edicts is not to disobey and obey God a Minister ought not to think that his Skill in the Latine Greek or Hebrew Tongues if he have any gives him a priviledge to impose upon all his Fellow-subjects his own sense or what he pretends to be his sense of every obscure place of Scripture nor ought he as often as he hath found some fine Interpretation not before thought on by others to think he had it by inspiration as fine as he thinks it is not false and then all his Stubornness and Contumacy towards the King and his Laws is nothing but Pride of heart and Ambition or else Imposture And whereas you think it needless or perhaps hurtful to have the Scriptures in English I am of another mind There are so many places of Scripture easily to be understood that teach both true Faith and good Morality and that as fully as is necessary to Salvation of which no Seducer is able to dispose the mind of any ordinary Readers that the Reading of them is so profitable as not to be forbidden without great Damage to them and the Commonwealth B. All that is required both in Faith and Manner 's for Man's Salvation is I confess set down in Scripture as plainly as can be Children Obey you◠Parents in all things Servants obey your Masters Let all men be subject to the Higher Powers whether it be the King or those that are sent by him Love God with all your Soul and your Neighbour as your self are words of the Scripture which are well enough understood but neither Children nor the greatest part of Men do understand why it is their Duty so to do they see not that the safety of the Commonwealth and consequently their own depends upon the doing of it Every man by Nature without Discipline does in all his Actions look upon as far as he can see the benefit that shall redound to himself by his Obedience he Reads that Covetousness is the Root of all Evil but he thinks and sometimes finds it is the Root of his Estate And so in other Cases the Scripture says one thing and they think another weighing the Commodities or Incommodities of this present Life only which are in their sight never putting into the Scales the Good and Evil of the Life to come which they see not A. All this is no more than happens where the Scripture is sealed up in Greek and Latine and the People taught the same things out of them by Preachers but they that are of a Condition and Age fit to examine the sence of what they read and that take a delight in searching out the Grounds of their Duty certainly cannot chuse but by reading of the Scriptures come to such a sense of their Duty as not only to obey the Laws themselves but also to induce others to do the same for commonly Men of Age and quality are followed by their inferiour Neighbours that look more upon the example of those Men whom they Reverence and whom they are unwilling to displease then upon precepts and Laws B. These men of the condition and Age you speak of are in my opinion the unfittest of all others to be trusted with the reading of the Scriptures I know you mean such as have studied the Greek or Latin or both Tongues and that are withal such as love knowledge and consequently take delight in finding out the meaning of the most hard Texts or in thinking they have found it in case it be new and not found out by others these are therefore they that pretermitting the easiy places that teach them their Duty fall to scanning only the Mysteries of Religion Such as are how it may be made out with wit that there be three that bear Rule in Heaven and those three but one how the Deity could be made flesh how that flesh could be really present in many places at once where 's the place and what the Torments of Hell and other Metaphysical Doctrines whether the Will of Man be free or govern'd by the Will of God whether Sanctity comes by inspiration or Education by whom Christ now speaks to us whether by the King or by the Bible to
and the treacherous divisions growing now among themselves had driven them to relie upon the fortune of one day in which at Naseby the King's Army was utterly overthrown and no hope left Him to raise another therefore after the Battel he went up and down doing the Parliament here and there some shrewd turns but never much increasing His number Fairfax in the mean time first recovered Leicester and then marching into the West subdued it all except only a few places forcing with much ado my Lord Hopton upon honorable Conditions to disband his Army and with the Prince of Wales to pass over to Scilly whence not long after they went to Paris In April 1646. General Fairfax began to march back to Oxford in the mean time Rainsburrough who besieged Woodstock had it surrender'd The King therefore who was now also return'd to Oxford from whence Woodstock is but six miles not doubting but that He should there by Fairfax be besieg'd and having no Army to relieve Him resolv'd to get away disguised to the Scotch Army about Newark and thither he came the 4th of May and the Scotch Army being upon remove homewards carried Him with them to Newcastle whither He came May the 13th B. Why did the King trust Himself with the Scots They were the first that Rebell'd They were Presbyterians i. e. cruel Besides they were indigent and consequently might be suspected would sell Him to His Enemies for money And lastly They were too weak to defend Him or keep Him in their Countrey A. What could He have done better for He had in the Winter before sent to the Parliament to get a Pass for the Duke of Richmond and others to bring them Propositions of Peace it was denied He sent again it was denied again Then He desir'd He might come to them in Person this also was denied He sent again and again to the same purpose but instead of granting it they made an Ordinance That the Commanders of the Militia of London in the case the King should attempt to come within the Line of Communication should raise what Force they thought fit to suppress Tumults to apprehend such as came with Him and to secure i. e. to imprison His Person from danger If the King had adventur'd to come and had been imprison'd what would the Parliament have done with Him They had dethron'd Him by their Votes and therefore could have no security while He liv'd though in Prison it may be they would not have put Him to death by a High Court of Justice publickly but secretly some other way B. He should have attempted to get beyond Sea A. That had been from Oxford very difficult Besides it was generally believ'd that the Scotch Army had promis'd Him that not only His Majesty but also His Friends that should come with Him should be in their Army safe not only for their Persons but also for their Honours and Consciences 'T is a pretty Trick when the Army and the particular Soldiers of that Army are different things to make the Soldiers promise what the Army means not to perform July 11. the Parliament sent their Propositions to the King at Newcastle which Propositions they pretended to be the onely way to a setled and well-grounded Peace They were brought by the Earl of Pembroke the Earl of Suffolk Sir Walter Earl Sir John Hyppesley Mr. Goodwin and Mr. Robinson whom the King asked If they had power to Treat And when they said No why they might not as well have been sent by a Trumpeter The Propositions were the same dethroning ones which they used to send and therefore the King would not assent to them Nor did the Scots swallow them at first but made some Exceptions against them only it seems to make the Parliament perceive they meant not to put the King into their hands gratis and so at last the bargain was made between them and upon payment of 200000 l. the King was put into the hands of the Commissioners which the English Parliament sent down to receive Him B. What a vile Complexion hath this Action compounded of feigned Religion and very Covetousness Cowardize Perjury and Treachery A. Now the War that seemed so just by many unseemly things is ended you will see almost nothing in these Rebels but Baseness and Falseness besides their Folly By this time the Parliament had taken in all the rest â—f the King's Garisons whereof the last was Pendennis Castle whither Duke Hamilton had been sent Prisoner by the King B. What was done during this time in Ireland and Scotland A. In Ireland there had been a Peace made by Order from His Majesty for a time which by divisions by the Irish was ill kept The Popish Party the Pope's Nuncio being then there took this to be the time for delivering themselves from their subjection to the English besides the time of the Peace was now expir'd B. How were they subject to the English more than the English to the Irish They were subject to the King of England but so also were the English to the King of Ireland A. The distinction is somewhat too subtile for common understanding In Scotland the Marquis of Montross for the King with a very few Men had miraculously with Victories over-run all Scotland where many of his Forces out of too much security were permitted to be absent for a while of which the Enemy having intelligence suddenly came upon them and forced them to flie back into the High-lands to recruit where he began to recover strength when the King commanded him being then in the hands of the Scots at Newcastle to disband and he departed from Scotland by Sea In the end of the same year 1646. the Parliament caused the King's great Seal to be broken Also the King was brought to Holmeby and there kept by the Parliaments Commissioners and here was an end of that War as to England and Scotland but not to Ireland About this time also dyed the Earl of Essex whom the Parliament had discarded B. Now that there was Peace in England and the King in Prison in whom was the Sovereign Power A. The Right was certainly in the King but the exercise was yet in no body but contended for as in a Game at Cards without fighting all the years 1647. and 1648. between the Parliament and Oliver Cromwel Lieutenant General to Sir Thomas Fairfax You must know that when King Henry VIII abolished the Pope's Authority here and took upon him to be the Head of the Church the Bishops as they could not resist him so neither were they discontented with it For whereas the Pope before allowed not the Bishops to claim Jurisdiction in their Diocesses Jure Divino that is of Right immediately from God but by the Gift and Authority of the Pope now that the Pope was outed they made no doubt but the Divine Right was in themselves After this the City of Geneva and divers other places beyond Sea having revolted from the
him that Christ being King of all the World had given the disposing of all the Kingdoms therein to the Pope And that the Pope had given Peru to the Roman Emperor Charles the 5. and required Atabalipa to resign it and for refusing it seised upon his Person by the Spanish Army there present and murdered him You see by this how much they claim when they have Power to make it good B. When began the Popes to take this Authority upon them first A. After the Inundation of Northern People had overflowed the Western Parts of the Empire and possessed themselves of Italy the People of the City of Rome submitted themselves as well in Temporals as Spirituals to their Bishop and then first was the Pope a Temporal Prince and stood no more in so great fear of the Emperors which lived far off at Constantinople In this time it was that the Pope began by pretence of his Power Spiritual to encroach upon the Temporal Rights of all other Princes of the West and so continued gaining upon them till his Power was at the highest in that 300 years or thereabout which passed between the time of Pope Leo the 3. and Pope Innocent the 3. For in this time Pope Zachary 1. deposed Chilperick then King of France and gave the Kingdom to one of his Subjects Pepin And Pepin took from the Lombards a great part of their Territory and gave it to the Church shortly after the Lombards having recovered their Estate Charles the Great retook it and gave it to the Church again and Pope Leo the 3. made Charles Emperor B. But what Right did the Pope there pretend for the creating of an Emperor A. He pretended the Right of being Christs Vicar and what Christ could give his Vicar might give and you know that Christ was King of all the World B. Yes as God and so he gives all the Kingdoms of the World which nevertheless proceed from the consent of People either for fear or hope A. But this Gift of the Empire was in a more special Manner in such a Manner as Moses had the Government of Israel given him or rather as Joshua had it given him to go in and out before the People as the High Priest should direct him and so the Empire was understood to be given him on condition to be directed by the Pope for when the Pope inuested him with the Regal Ornaments the People all cryed out Deus dat that is to say 't is God that gives it and from that time all or most of the Christian Kings do put into their Titles the words Dei gratia that is by the gift of God and their Successors use still to receive the Crown and Scepter â—rom a Bishop 'T is certainly a very good Custom for Kings to be put in mind by whose gift they reign but it cannot from that Custom be infer'd that they receive the Kingdom by mediation from the Pope or by any other Clergy for the Popes themselves received the Papacy from the Emperor the first that ever was elected Bishop of Rome after Emperors were Christians and without the Emperors consent excused himself by Letter to the Emperor with this that the People and Clergy of Rome forced him to take it upon him and prayed the Emperor to confirm it which the Emperour did but with Reprehension of their Proceedings and prohibition of the like for the time to come the Emperour was Lotharius and the Pope Calixtus the first A. You see by this the Emperour never acknowledged this gift of God was the gift of the Pope but maintained the Popedom was the gift of the Emperour but in process of time by the negligence of the Emperour for the greatness of Kings makes them that they cannot easily descend into the obscure and narrow Mines of an ambitious Clergy they found means to make the people believe there was a Power in the Pope and Clergy which they ought to submit unto rather than unto the Commands of their own King whensoever it should come into Controversy and to that end devised and decreed many new Articles of Faith to the diminution of the Authority of Kings and to the disjunction of them and their Subjects and to a closer adherence of their Subjects to the Church of Rome's Articles either not at all found in or not well founded upon the Scripture as first That it should not be lawful for a Priest to Marry What influence could that have upon the Power of Kings do you not see that by this the King must of necessity either want the Priesthood and therewith a great part of the Reverence due to him from the most Religious part of his Subjects or else want lawful Heirs to succeed in by which means being not taken for the Head of the Church he was sure in any Controversy between Him and the Pope that his Subjects would be against him B. Is not a Christian King as much a Bishop now as the Heathen Kings were of old for amongst them Episcopus was a name common to all Kings Is not he a Bishop now to whom God hath committed the charge of all the Souls of his Subjects both of the Laity and of the Clergy And though he be in relation to our Saviour who is the chief Pasture of Sheep yet compared to his own Subjects they are all Sheep both Laick and Clergy and he only Shepheard and seeing a Christian Bishop is but a Christian indued with power to govern the Clergy it follows that every Christian King is not only a Bishop but an Archbishop and his whole Kingdom his Diocess and though it were granted that Imposition of Hands were necessary for a Priest yet seeing Kings have the power of Government of the Clergy that are the Subjects even before Baptism the Baptism it self wherein he is received as a Christian is a sufficient Imposition of Hands so that whereas before he was a Bishop now he is a Christian Bishop A. For my part I agree with you this Prohibition of Marriage to Priests came in about the time of Pope Gregory the Seventh and William the First King of England by which means the Pope had in England what with Secular and what with Regular Priests a great many lusty Batchelers at his Service Secondly That Auricular Confession to a Priest was necessary to Salvation 'T is true that before that time Confession to a Priest was usual and performed for the most part by him that Confessed in writing but that use was taken away about the time of King Edward the Third and Priests commanded to take Confessions from the Mouth of the Confitent and men did generally believe that without Confession and Absolution before their departure out of the World they could not be saved and having Absolution from a Priest they could not be damned You understand by this how much every man would stand in awe of the Pope and Clergy more than they would of the King and what inconveniency
might do something that might look like Hostility It hapned in the year 1637. that the King by the advice as it is thought of the Arch-Bishop of Canterbury sent down a Book of Common Prayer into Scotland not differing in substance from ours nor much in words besides the putting of the word Presbyter for that of Minister commanding it to be used for Conformity to this Kingdom by the ministers there for an ordinary form of Divine Service this being read out the Church at Edinburgh caused such a Tumult there that he that read it had much adoe to escape with his life and gave occasion to the greatest part of the Nobility and others to enter by their own Authority into a Covenant amongst themselves to put down Episcopacy without consulting the King which they presently did animated thereto by their own Confidence or by assurance from some of the Democratical English men that in former Parliaments had been the greatest opposers of the King's interest that the King would not be able to raise an Army to chastise them without calling a Parliament which would be sure to favour them for the thing which those Democraticals chiefly then aimed at was to force the King to call a Parliament which he had not done of ten years before as having found no help but hinderance to his designs in the Parliaments he had formerly called Howsoever contrary to their expectation by the help of his better affected Subjects of the Nobility and Gentry he made a shift to raise a sufficient Army to have reduced the Scots to their former obedience if it had proceeded to Battle And with this Army he marched himself into Scotland where the Scotch Army was also brought into the Field against him as if they meant to fight but then the Scotch sent to the King for leave to treat by Commissioners on both sides and the King willing to avoid the destruction of his own Subjects condescended to it the issue was Peace and the King thereupon went to Edinburgh and passed an Act of Parliament there to their Satisfaction B. Did he not then confirm Episcopacy A. No but yielded to the abolishing of it but by the means the English were crossed in their hope of a Parliament but the Democraticals formerly opposers of the King's Interest ceased not to endeavour still to put the two Nations into a War to the end the King might buy the Parliament's help at no less a price than Soveraignty it self B. But what was the Cause that the Gentry and Nobility of Scotland were so averse from Episcopacy For I can hardly believe that their Consciences were extraordinarily tender nor that they were so very great Divines as to know what was the true Church Discipline established by our Saviour and his Apostles nor yet so much in love with their Ministers as to be over-ruled by them in the Government either Ecclesiastical or Civil for in their lives they were just as other men are Pursuers of their own Interests and Preferments wherein they were not more opposed by the Bishops than by their Presbyterian Ministers A. Truly I do not know I cannot enter into other mens thoughts farther than I am lead by the consideration of Human Nature in general But upon this consideration I see First That men of antient Wealth and Nobility are not apt to brook that poor Schollars should as they must when they are made Bishops be their Fellows Secondly That from the emulation of Glory between the Nations they be willing to see their Nation afflicted with Civil War and might hope by aiding the Rebels here to acquire some Power over the English at least so far as to establish here the Presbyterian Discipline which was also one of the points they afterwards openly demanded Lastly They might hope for in the War some great sum of money as a reward of their assistance besides great Booty which they afterwards obtained but whatsoever was the cause of their hatred to Bishops the pulling of them down was not all they aimed at if it had now that Episcopacy was abolished by Act of Parliament they would have rested satisfied which they did not for after the King was returned to London the English Presbyterians and Democraticals by whose favour they had put down Bishops in Scotland thought it reason to have the assistance of the Scotch for the pulling down of Bishops in England and in order thereunto they might perhaps deal with the Scots secretly to rest unsatisfied with that pacification which they were before contented with howsoever it was not long after the King was returned to London they sent up to some of their friends at Court a certain Paper containing as they pretended the Articles of the said Pacification a false and Scandalous Paper which was by the King's Command burnt as I have heard publickly and so both parts returned to the same Condition as they were in when the King went down with his Army B. And so there was a great deal of Money cast away to no purpose but you have not told me who was General of that Army A. I told you the King was there in Person he that commanded under him was the Earl of Arundel a man that wanted not either Valour oâ— Judgement but to proceed to Battle or to Treaty was not in his Power but in the King 's B. He was a man of a most Noble and Loyal Family and whose Ancestors had formerly given a great overthrow to the Scots in their own Countrey and in all likelihood he might have given them the like now if they had Fought A. He might indeed but it had been but a kind of Superstition to have made him General upon that account though many Generals heretofore have been chosen for the good luck of their Ancestors in the like occasions In the long War between Athens and Sparta a General of the Athenians by Sea won many Victories against the Spartans for which cause after his death they chose his Son for General with ill success The Romans that Conquered Carthage by the Valor and Conduct of Scipio when they were to make War again in Africk against Caesar chose another Scipio a man Valiant and Wise enough but he perished in the imployment And to come home to our own Nation the Earl of Essex made a fortunate Expedition to Cadiz but his Son sent afterwards to the same place could do nothing 'T is but a foolish Superstition to hope that God has entailed success in War upon a Name or Family B. After the Pacification broken what succeeded next A. The King sent Duke Hamilton with Commission and Instructions into Scotland to call a Parliament there but all was to no purpose and to use all the means he could otherwise but the Scots were resolved to raise an Army and to enter into England to deliver as they pretended their grievances to his Majesty in a Petition because the King they said being in the hands of evil Councellors they could
every Man that reads it and interprets it to himself or by a private Spirit to every private Man These and the like points are the study of the curious and the cause of all our late mischief and the cause that makes the plainer sort of men whom the Scriptures had taught belief in Christ love towards God obedience towards the King and sobriety of Behaviour forget it all and place their Religion in the Disputable Doctrines of these your wise Men. A. I do not think these men fit to interpret the Scriptures to the rest nor do I say that the rest ought to take their interpretation for the word of God Whatsoever is necessary for them to know more does them no good but in case any of these unnecessary Doctrines shall be Authorized by the Laws of the King or other state I say it is the duty of every Subject not to speak against them in asmuch as 't is every Mans Duty to obey him or them that have the Sovereign power and the wisdom of all such powers to punish such as shall publish or teach their private Interpretations when they are contrary to the Law and likely to incline men to sedition or disputing against the Law B. They must punish then the most of those that have had there breeding in the Universities for such curious questions in Divinity are first started in the Universities and so are all those politick questions concerning the Rights of Civil and Ecclesiastical Government and there they are furnished with arguments for liberty out of the works of Aristotle Plato Câ—cero Seâ—ica and 〈◊〉 of the Histories of 〈…〉 for their disputation against the 〈…〉 power of their 〈…〉 therefore I dispare of any 〈…〉 our selves till the 〈…〉 their studies to the 〈…〉 obedience to the Laws of the 〈…〉 to his publick Edicts under the great Seal of England for I make no doubt but that solid reason backt with the Authority of so many learned men will more prevail for the keeping of us in peace within our selves than any victory can do over the Rebells but I am afraid 't is unpossible to bring the Universities to such a compliance with the Actions of state as is necessary for the Business seeing the Universities have heretofore from time to time maintain'd the Authority of the Pope contrary to all Laws Divine Civil and Natural against the Right of our Kings why can they not as well when they have all manner of Laws and Equity on their side maintain the Rights of him that is both sovereign of the Kingdom and Head of the Church B. Why then were they not in all points for the Kings power presently after that King Henry the 8. was in Parliament declared Head of the Church as much as they were before for the Authority of the Pope A. Because the Clergy in the Universities by whom all things there are Govern'd and the Clergy without the Universities as well Bishops as inferiour Clerks did think that the pulling down of the Pope was the setting up of them as to England in his place and made no question the greatest part of them but that their spiritual power did depend not upon the Authority of the King but of Christ himself derived to them by successible Imposition of hands from Bishop to Bishop notwithstanding they knew that this derivation passed through the hands of Popes Bishops whose Authority they had cast off for though they were content that the Divine right which the Pope pretended to in England should be denied him yet they thought it not so fit to be taken from the Church of England whom they now supposed themselves to represent It seems they did not think it reasonable that a Woman or a Child or a Man that could not construe the Hebrew Greek or Latin Bible nor know perhaps the declensions and Conjugations of Greek or Latin Nounes and Verbs should take upon him to govern so many learned Doctors in matters of Religion meaning matters of Divinity for Religion has been for a long time and is now by most people taken for the same thing with Divinity to the great advantage of the Clergie B. And especially now amongst the Presbyterians for I see few that are esteemed by them very good Christians besides such as can repeat their Sermons and wrangle for them about the Interpretation of the Scripture and fight for them also with their Bodies or purses when they shal be required to believe in Christ is nothing with them unless you believe as they bid you Charity is nothing with them unless it be Charity and liberality to them and partaking with them in faction How we can have peace while this is our Religion I cannot tell Haeret Laterilethalis arundo The seditious Doctrine of the Presbyterians hath been stuck so hard in the Peoples heads and memories I cannot say into their hearts for they understood nothing in it but that they may lawfully rebel That I fear the Common-wealth will never be cured A. The 2 Great vertues that were severally in Henry the 7. Henry the 8. When they shall be Joyntly in one King will easily cure it that of Henry the 7 was without much noise of the people to â—ill his Coffers that of Henry the 8 was an early severity but this without the former cannot be exercised B. This that you say looks me thinks like an advice to the King to let them alone till he have gotten ready money enough to levy and maintain a sufficient Army and then to fall on them and destroy them A. God forbid that so horrible Unchirstian and unhuman design should ever enter into the Kings heart I would have him have money enough readily to raise an Army able to suppress any Rebellion and to take from the Enemies all hope of success that they may not dare to trouble him in the Reformation of the Universities but to put none to death without the Aâ—tual committing such crimes as are already made Capital by the Laws the Core of Rebellion as you have seen by this and read of other Rebellions are the Universities which nevertheless are not to be cast away but to be better disciplin'd that is to say that the Politicks there taught be made to be as true poliâ—icks should be such as are fit to make men know that it is their duty to obey aâ— Laws whatsoever that shall be by the Authority of the King enacted till by the same Authority they shall be repeal'd suâ—â— as are fit to make Men understand that the Civil Laws are Gods Laws as they that make them to make Men know that the people and the Church are one thing and have but one Head the â—ing and that no Man has Title to Govern under him that has it not from him that the King owes his Crown to God onlâ— and to no Man Ecclesiastick or other and that the Religion they teach there be a quiet waiting â—or the coming again of our blessed Saviour and