all equally Wherfore by Ieroms iudgement Peter was not ouer the Apostles in power If not in power yet in part of gouernment in what but in that preeminence which I spake of S. Ierom therefore saying that Peter was appointed head of the Apostles did meane that preeminence among the Apostles and not a soueraintie aboue them Hart. The wordes of S. Ierom doo speake somewhat too liberally of the Apostles in that he saith the church is built vpon them all equally And as D. Stapleton noteth very well the distinction touching things writen by the Fathers some by way of doctrine and some of contention is verified in them For here by occasion that he reasoneth against Iouinian who alleaged against the honour of virginitie that Christ preferred Peter a maried man before the rest he doth lessen and extenuate the authority of Peter as farre as truth did giue him leaue making the rest equall to him for the Apostleship yet affirming plainely that he was head of the rest Rainoldes Ierom wrote many things in déed against Iouinian by way of contention rather then of doctrine to the disgrace of marriage In so much that being therefore reproued by some himselfe excuseth it that he did rather striue thē teach and Pammachius a learned gentleman his fréend did suppresse the copies and wished them to be concealed till he had corrected them But neither was this place so reproued by them or excused by him for ought that may be gathered by his apologie nor is it to be noted as sauouring more of heate then truth for the substance of it agreeth with the scriptures Yea Stapleton who couereth it with this distinction confesseth in effect as much at vnawares For he saith that Ierom doth lessen and extenuate the authoritie of Peter as far as truth did giue him leaue Wherof it ensueth that it is no vntrueth to say as Ierom doth that all the Apostles had equall power with Peter The name of head therefore which Ierom giueth him with the same breath can by no meanes import a soueraine power ouer the Apostles Unlesse you will make him so absurd and brainesicke as that he should say Though none of the Apostles were soueraine of the rest but they had equall power all yet was one of them aboue the rest in power and had the souerain-headship of them Hart. Wel. Howsoeuer you handle Ieroms wordes he saith in flat termes that which you denyed And therefore he maketh against you with vs. Rainoldes In what point Or how Hart. You denied that Peter was head of the Apostles Ierom saith he was Peter was not head and Peter was head Is there not a contradiction betwéene your words and his Rainoldes No more then betwéene the wordes of Iohn and Christ Christ said of Iohn Baptist this is Elias Iohn Baptist said of him selfe I am not Elias Iohn Baptist is Elias and Iohn Baptist is not Elias Is there not a contradiction betwéen the words of Christ and Iohn Hart. No. For Christ meant one way and Iohn Baptist an other Christ that he was Elias in spirit as coming in the spirit and power of Elias Iohn Baptist that he was not Elias in person which the Pharisees meant Rainoldes You haue answered well So Ierom meant one way and I an other Ierom that he was head in a preeminence of gouernment as moderating the actions in assemblies of the Apostles I that he was not head in soueraintie of power which the Papists meane And thus to conclude you may see that the Fathers whom you alleage for Peter some giue him a prerogatiue of authoritie some of primacie some of principalitie but none of your supremacie For your supremacie doth consist in power and they giue equall power to Peter with the rest Hart. Equall power I graunt in respect of the Apostleship but not of pastoral charge For Peter was ouer thē in that euen as the Pope is ouer Bishops And so we do expound the words of S. Cyprian S. Ierom S. Chrysostome and other of the Fathers who giue equall power to the Apostles with Peter Rainoldes Yet more of these Colewortes I haue proued alreadie that Peters pastorall charge and his Apostleship is al one and therefore if they were equall to him in the Apostleship the were in pastorall charge too But if no other reason will put you to silence the Popes own authority may force you to it here For in the Cyprian set forth by him at Rome he noteth it to be considered that whereas Cyprian saith The rest of the Apostles had equall power with Peter this must be vnderstood of the equalitie of Apostleship which ceased when the Apostles died and passed not ouer vnto Bishops The drift of which note implieth a distinction of Apostles and Bishops that it is not with Bishops in respect of the Pope as it was with the Apostles in respect of Peter And that doth cary with it a checke of your opinion which maketh the Apostles vnderlings to Peter as Bishops to the Pope Hart. You knowe not who made that note in the Roman Cyprian for there is no mans name to it But if the Pope either made it him selfe or allowed of it being made by others to whom he did commit that charge he set down as a priuate Doctor his owne opinion which they who list may folow But this is my opinion which I haue set downe and to that I stand Rainoldes I am glad you thinke not as the Pope doth at least in one point God graunt that you may come forward in the rest to dissent from him not in this one point alone but in many Howbeit whether he or others made that note they set it forth with greater authoritie and priuilege then as a priuate Doctors fansie Neither is it likely that they would haue graunted so much to the Apostles vnlesse the truth had wroong it from them Let your righteousnes M. Hart if not exceede yet match the righteousnes of Scribes and Pharisees and yéeld to this conclusion which riseth of our conference that Peter was not head of all the Apostles as you do take the name of head Hart. You shall conclude your selfe alone so for me For I do protest that I beléeue it not nor mind to yéeld vnto it The sixth Chapter The two maine groundes on which the supremacie vsurped by the Pope doth lie The former that there should be one Bishop ouer all in earth 1 because Christ said There shall be one flocke and one pastor 2 and among the Iewes there was one iudge and hie Priest The later that the Pope is that one Bishop 3 because Peter was Bishop of Rome as some say 4 and the Pope succeedeth Peter Both examined and shewed to faile in the proofe of the Popes supremacie RAINOLDES Then wisedome must be content to be iustified of her childrē Howbeit God is able to chaunge your hart in such sort that as
so then For though the Arian heresie did set vpon Liberius fiersly and ouerthrew him when he being weeried with the tediousnes of his banishment did subscribe to it yet sith he recouered himselfe from his fall and manfully withstood it afterwarde it cannot be saide to haue preuailed against him Whether it preuailed or no against Felix of whom some report that he was an Arian some that he communicated only with the Arians it is no matter to S. Austin who reckeneth him not amongst the Roman Bishops Wherein though your Genebrard doo dissent from him because Felix dyed a martyr as he saith citeth Sozomen to proue it but he belyeth Sozomen to infer on that lye that Peters chaire hath such a vertue that it could rather beare a martyr then an heretike or a Pope that fauoured heretikes yet others not séeing belike such a mystery in the death of Felix are of S. Austins minde euen your Onuphâ—ius also who neither doth acknowledge his Popedome nor his martyrdome Now the heresie of the Donatistes had lesse preuailed against them For as they had before withstood the Nouatians the coosin germans to the Donatists so did they withstand the Donatists them selues both by their communion with the Catholikes and by their doctrine And this is the point on the which S. Austin did cast his eye chiefly when he commended their succession As it appeereth farther by a reply that hee made to a Donatists epistle where hauing reckened vp all the Roman Bishops from Linus who succéeded Peter to Anastasius liuing then he concludeth with these wordes in the ranke of this succession there is not one Bishop found that was a Donatist Wherewithall ifwe consider how they maintained the truth against the heresies of Carpocrates Valentinus Marcion Sabellius Macedonius Photinus Apollinaris and the rest of those miscreants who vndermined the foundation of the Christian faith the doctrine of the blessed Trinitie the reason will be manifest why to moue the Donatists by the succession of the Bishops of Rome and their autoritie S. Austin gaue it this prayse that the gates of hell did not preuaile against it Hart. Well The succession then of the Roman Bishops is vsed by S. Austin for a certaine marke of the Catholike religion of the true Church and of the right faith Neither onely by S. Austin but by the rest of the Fathers too For Epiphanius alleageth it against the Carpocratians let no man maruaile saith he that we rehearse al thinges so exactly for that which is manifest in faith is thereby shewed And Tertullian hauing said of them selues in Afrike that they haue autority from the Church of Rome doth teach that the succession of that Church and See is to be set against all heretikes And Irenaeus reckening vp all the Roman Bishops in order from Peter to Eleutherius of his time doth adde that it is a most ample declaration of the Apostolike faith to be of his side against the Valentinians And Optatus reckneth farther from Peter to Siricius of his time against the Donatists As likewise S. Austin farther yet from Peter to Anastasius of his time that he saith much more surely and to the soules health in deed Wherefore the Church of Rome and we who are of that Church haue an assured warrant that the faith which we professe is the true faith For we haue the succession of the Roman Bishops from Peter to Gregory the thirtenth of our time which is an inuincible fort against all heretikes as the Fathers Epiphanius Tertullian Irenaeus Optatus and Austin testifie Rainoldes You will neuer leaue to daly with the Church of Rome as Tullie did with Maistresse Fabia The succession of the Roman Bishops is a proofe of the true faith for so it was in the time of Austin Epiphanius Optatus Tertullian Irenaeus twelue hundred yeares ago vpwarde Succession was a proofe of the true faith till Bishops who varied from the truth succéeded euen as sheepes clothing was a marke of true Prophets till false Prophets came in it But neither are true Prophets knowne now by shéepes clothing nor the true faith by succession The succession of Bishops was a proofe of true faith not in the Church of Rome alone but in all while they who succéeded the Apostles in place succéeded them in doctrine too kept that which Paule deliuered to Timothee Timothee to others But when rauening woolues were gotten into the roomes of pastours and that was fulfilled which Paul foretold the Bishops of Ephesus of your own selues there shall arise men speaking peruerse thinges to draw disciples after them then succession ceased to be a proofe of true faith for that it was no longer peculiar to the truth but common to it with errour and so a marke of neither because a marke of both This difference of succession betwene the later age and the former the primitiue churches time and ours is manifest by the Fathers them selues whom you alleage For Irenaeus to beginne with the most auncient of them saith that the succession of Bishops in all Churches through the whole world doth keepe and teach that doctrine which the Apostles deliuered Now it doth not so nor hath these many ages since Irenaeus died Hath it Hart. Not in all Churches But in the Church of Rome it doth and hath and shall for euer Rainoldes But if you would say as much for al Churches you might proue it as wisely out of Irenaens as you doo for the Church of Rome Hart. I deny that For he doth not fetch the succession of true doctrine but from the Church of Rome against the Valentinians Rainoldes D. Stapleton told you so and you beleeued it I know not whether I should more pitie your credulitie or detest his impudencie who hath abused you with such lewde vntruthes and that against his owne knowledge vnlesse he knew not what he had writen himselfe For him selfe had cited the wordes of Irenaeus which auouch the contrarie to wéete we can recken them who were ordeined Bishops by the Apostles in the Churches their successours vntill our time who taught not any such thing and so foorth But for as much as it would be verie long to recken the successions of all Churches we declare the faith of the greatest the most auncient and famous Church of Rome Which faith hath continued vntill our time by the successions of Bishops And againe the true knowledge is the doctrine of the Apostles and the auncient state of the Church in the whole world and the forme of Christes body according to the successions of Bishops vnto whom they did commit the Church which is in euery place which hath continued vntill our time being kept and so foorth By the which sentences it is plaine that Irenaeus although he recken not the successions of all Churches because it
and of one soule They all are one body sanctified by one spirit through the Sacrament of one baptisme knit to Christ by one faith to themselues in one loue to serue togither one Lord in one hope and expectation of one eternall blisse and glory So that of this vnitie whereof Peters state and nature is capable apply which you list vnto the wordes of Leo either vnitie of will as you seeme to do or vnity of grace as others answere for it or vnitie of glory which Christ did pray for also and some will like that better none of these doe reach vnto that maiestie which Leos wordes aspire to by giuing him the felowship of the indiuisible vnitie Yet God forbid that any man should suspect of him that he meant vnitie either of nature with God or of person with Christ. He hath deserued better then to be thought so euill off But that which in trueth may be said for him is that his meaning was as other-where him selfe doth open it that Christ did impart his name of rocke and foundation of the church to Peter Now some mist of fansie daisled his eyes or els he would neuer haue saide thereupon that Christ receyued Peter into the felowship of the indiuisible vnitie and that in such preeminence as he receyued none but him chiefly sith hée imparted his greater names and titles of Iesus of Christ of the light of the world one of them to some the rest to all his seruants neither did he giue his name of rocke to Peter or of foundation to Peter onely as shall appeare after But if yet you see not that Leo did outreach in making Peter as it were a felow-head a partie-rocke and the halfe-foundation of the Church with Christ behold a farther felowship wherein he ioyneth Peter as mate and partner with God a felowship of power God hath giuen to Peter a great and a wonderfull felowship of his power and if he would haue any thing to be common vnto other princes with him he neuer gaue but by him whatsoeuer he gaue to others Out of all controuersie these wordes do lift vp Peter vnto the felowship of that glory of which God is so iealous that he hath protested he will not giue it to any other he hath giuen it to Christ who is one with himselfe God of God light of light if any man presume to ioyne a mortall creature whomsoeuer as companion vnto Christ in it he robbeth Christ of his honor of the onely mediator betwéene God and man And what doth he els who saith as Leo doth that S. Peters care shineth ouer Bishops in that their slaunderers are defaced that Peters merit and autoritie doth strengthen the writings of his seruant against heretikes that Peter doth not suffer their persons to be stained who labour for the catholike faith that the Popes decrees are made by the inspiration of God and S. Peter that it must be imputed vnto S. Peters workes and merits if any thing be gotten of God by dayly prayers that nothing passeth ouer vnto the chiefest of the Church no not vnto any man from God but by S. Peter Let euery Christian hart whome the zeale of God hath giuen any warmth vnto and his Spirit wisedome be iudge betwéene you and vs whether that to yeald such power such authoritie such souerainetie and rule of the Church of Christ to any Saint in heauen be not an empairing of the maiestie dominion and soueraine authoritie of the king of Saints the holy one of Israel It gréeueth me to speake so much against Leo whose learning I doe loue and reuerence his auncient yeares But the Auncient of dayes is more auncient then he must be had in greater reuerence who taught young Elihu to reproue his auncients euen holy Iob amongst them and to say of them I will not accept the person of any neither will I giue titles vnto man for I may not giue titles If I should doe it a litle he that made me would take mee away UUherefore I doe fréely without curtesie of titles and accepting of persons professe that I mislike those hawtie spéeches in Leo and I thinke that the mysterie of iniquitie so wrought through his ambitious aduancing Peter that of the egges which he cherished two of the most venemous cokcatrices were bred that euer poysoned the church of Christ the one the Popes supremacie vsurping Princely power ouer the church and common-weale with breach of faith to God and man the other the worshipping of Saintes wherin that honour is giuen to creatures which ought to be giuen to the Creator onely One example may shew them both euen Hildebrand called Gregorie the seuenth in his Popedome who depriuing Henrie the Emperour of his Empire and discharging his subiects of their othe of allegiance pronounced sentence with such an inuocation of Peter as a true Christian would trēble to haue heard vsed to any but to God Incline thine eares ô blessed Peter Prince of the Apostles heare me thy seruant whom thou hast brought vp from mine infancy and hast preserued to this day from the handes of the vnrighteous who hate and vexe me for my fayth in thee Thou canst beare me witnesse best and the holy mother of Christ and thy brother Paule partaker with thee of martyrdome that I haue vndertaken the gouernmēt of the Papacie vnwillingly Not that I thought it robbery to clime into thy See lawfully but I had rather liue in pilgrimage thē occupie thy roome for fame and glorie only I doe confesse and good cause why that the charge of the Christiā people was committed and the power of binding loosing granted vnto me not through my desertes but by thy grace Trusting therefore on this assuraunce for the honour and sauegard of thy holy church in the name of God almightie the father the sonne and the holy Ghost I throwe downe King Henry the sonne of Henry sometime Emperour who hath laide handes too boldly and rashly vpon thy church from his imperiall and kingly gouernment and I absolue al Christians subiect to the Empire frō that othe by the which they are wont to beare faith alleagiance vnto true Kings Doe you sée to what iniquitie their pride abusing Peters name and claiming al by him hath puffed them vp To what vsurping ouer Emperours To what dishonouring of the Almightie But of this we shall haue fitter occasion to conferre when we come to the question of the worship of Saintes For the other to returne to the point which we haue in hand the name of head in that sense as it is made a conduit of the giftes of God to powre them abroad into al the body is onely due and proper vnto the Mediatour betwéene God man the Apostle of our profession our Sauiour Iesus Christ. When the right of this title
the like consent by which they were made But with the Pope it is not so For such is the power of his Princely prerogatiue that not onely Councels may not make decrées for the Church-gouernment without his consent but hee may also make decrées without them as good as they with him Yea that he may adde too and take from and alter what hee shall thinke good in the decrées of Councels and set them out for theirs as Pope Clemens played with the Councell of Vienna Yea that being made with their consent and his both hee maye breake them when he will and repeale them if he list for no lawe doth hold him Now sith that the power which you giue the Pope by the name of supreme head you giue it Peter too from whom you fetch the Popes conueiance and Peter in the assemblies of the Apostles was but as the Speaker and therefore not as the Prince and therefore not as more then the Prince in our Parlament hereof I conclude that Peter was not the supreme head of the Apostles And so haue you the third point which I promised to proue that if somewhat more were giuē to Peter thē to the rest of the Apostles yet was it not so much as should make him their supreme head You may discharge now the Actes of the Apostles out of your Campe. For drawe what reasons thence you list you shal find thē as I told you no stronger thē the former Hart. You are too hasty your conclusion runneth away before your proofe Rainoldes I haue proued as much as may conclude your Pope to be an vsurper Hart. You haue not proued that Peter in the assemblies of the Apostles was but as the Speaker is in our Parlament Rainoldes What néede I When your selfe gaue no more vnto him then as the Speakers office in the former assembly wherein yet he did most For you said that he proposed an election to be made of a new Apostle into the roome of Iudas And this was all that you might say and say truely by the story of the Actes Which sheweth that not he but they mad◠the election so farre as it was lawfull for them to deale with that which God was to order extraordinarilie As for the other assembly when the Councel was held at Ierusalem you cannot proue that he had so much as the office of a Speaker therein Your Doctor infeoffeth him I graunt with more namely that hee speaketh first of all concludeth yea and is President too But what will not he dare to affirme who in so great light of the Scriptures affirmeth in writing that which is flat against them For he saith that Peter not only speaketh first but concludeth also And they shewe that both there had beene much debating and reasoning of the matter before Peter spake and after he had spoken Barnabas and Paule and Iames spake and so the Councell did conclude the matter Yea they did conclude it according to the very wordes that Iames spake and a speciall point of his which Peter touched not So that if we would striue but lawfully against that for which you striue vnlawfully the likely-hood is rather that Iames sat as President in the Coūcell then Peter sith both he spake last and the whole Councell did conclude with him But to yéeld vnto you for your most aduantage as much or more then any likely-hood may afford you that Peter was not only the Speaker but the President in both the assemblies yet are you no néerer vnto that supremacy which you shoote at For such a Presidentship as Peter had amongst the Apostles is so farre from the Prelatship which the Pope seeketh to haue amongst Bishops that if we should offer him all that Peter had at your request vpon condition that he would accept it and aske no more then it he would thinke we mocked him and giue you litle thankes who take vpon you to be his aduocate make so poore a plea for him This you may perceiue by an other aduocate who made the same plea for him out of this storie a learned Lawier Francis Duaren He in his Abridgement of the Canon lawe falling into the question of the Pope and the Councell whither of them is soueraine and hath the chiefest power whereto the other should be subiect in matters of the Church doth thus set downe his iudgement of it It seemeth most agreeable to the law of God that the Church which the Councell doth represent should haue the chiefest power and the Pope should acknowledge himselfe subiect to it For the power of binding and loosing was giuen by Christ not to Peter alone whose successour the Pope is said to be but to the whole Church Howbeit I deny not but Peter was set ouer the rest of the Apostles Hereof it commeth that in the time of the Apostles as often as any was to be ordeined either Bishop or Deacon or any thing to bee decreed which appertained to the Church Peter neuer tooke that vpon himselfe but permited it to the whole Church This was in him aboue the rest that he was wont as chiefe of the Apostles to call them togither and propose to them the thinges which were to bee doone Euen as now with vs hee that is the President of a court of Parlament doth call togither the Senate in the Senate he speaketh first when it is needfull and doth many other things which argue a certaine prerogatiue and preeminence of the person that he beareth Yet is he not therefore greater or higher then is the whole court neither hath hee power ouer all the Senatours neyther may hee decree any thing against their iudgements nay the iudgement of all controuersies belongeth to the court whose head the President is said to bee and not to the President Yea if neede bee the court dooth minister iustice and execute iudgement as well against him as against anye other and punisheth him also And this was the state of these thinges in olde time But in processe of time I know not how it came to passe that the highest power ouer all Christians was giuen vnto one man and he was set at libertie from being bound to any lawes after the maner of Emperours or to the Canons decrees of any Councels For Pope Paschalis prouided and ordered by a decretall Epistle that no Councels may prescribe a lawe to be kept of the church of Rome the authoritie of the Bishop of Rome is excepted expresly in the decrees of certaine Councels And thus he goeth forward in shewing the prerogatiue of the Pope aboue the Councell whereof he maketh him President But so that you sée he acknowledgeth it is not in the Actes of the Popes as it was of old in the Actes of the Apostles no not in those very places of the Actes whereon you grounde
As for the later of calling him to account although your good wéening of the Pope persuadeth you that he would not thinke his state to be abased if the Cardinals should aske him why he dooth this or that yet they who knew him better a great deale then you and loued him so well that they woulde not belie him doo witnesse not onely by word but by writing that he will not bée dealt withall by his inferiours as Peter was by the Apostles I meane not your Canonists in whose glose it goeth for a famous rule that none may say vnto the Pope Syr why do you so But I meane the learnedst and best of your Diuines who setting the Church aboue the Pope in authoritie mislike that the Pope will not be subiect to the Councell Of whom to name one for many Iohn Ferus a Frier of S. Francis order but godlier then the common sort intreating in his Commentaries written on the Actes of the example of Peter how hée was required to render a reason of that which hee had done maketh this note vpon it Peter the Apostle and chiefe of the Apostles is constrained to giue an account to the Church neither dooth he disdaine it because he knew him selfe to be not a Lorde but a minister of the Church The Church is the Spouse of christ and ladie of the house Peter a seruant and minister Wherefore the Church may not onely exact an account of her ministers but also depose thē reiect them altogither if they be not fit So did they of old time very often in Councels But wicked Bishops now will not be reproued no not of the Church nor be ordered by it as though they were Lordes not ministers Therefore they are confounded of all and eche in seuerall by the iust iudgement of God Doo you know what Bishops they be who refuse to bee subiect to the Church Who say they are aboue the Councell Who may iudge all and none may iudge them This Preacher a Preacher of your own not ours dooth call them wicked Bishops The Lord of his mercy make his wordes a prophecy that those wicked Bishops may be confounded of all and eche in seuerall by the iust iudgement of God Hart. You bring me wordes of Ferus which were not his perhaps but thrust into his commentaries before they came vnto the print by some malitious heretike For Sixtus Senensis saith that there are witnesses of very good credit who auouch that the commentaries of Ferus vpon Matthew were corrupted by heretikes after his death before they were printed Rainoldes Sixtus saith in déede of his Commentaries vpon Matthew that they were corrupted chiefly in that place where Ferus speaketh of the keyes that Christ did promise Peter For there is set downe as a speciall note that Christ saith to Peter I will giue thee the keyes of the kingdome of heauen hee saith not the keyes of the kingdome of earth These wordes pertaine nothing to an earthly power which yet some endeuour by them to establish affirming that Peter receiued fulnes of power not only in spirituall things but also temporall And after declaration how this is plainely reproued by S. Bernard writing to Pope Eugenius it is added farther Peter receiued the keyes that is to say power not an earthly power that he might giue and take away dominions and kingdomes neither such a power that it should be lawfull for him to doo what hee list as many men dreame but he receaued the power of binding and loosing opening shutting remitting and retaining sinnes neither this at his pleasure but as a minister and seruant doing the wil of his Lord. And these are the words which sauour so strongly of an hereticall spirite that Sixtus saith it is auouched by credible witnesses the cōmentaries of Ferus on Matthew wer corrupted after his death by heretikes chiefly in this place before they wer printed Wherin both the witnesses Sixtus in my iudgement haue shewed thē selues wise For it is better to beare men in hand that heretikes corrupted the commentaries of Ferus chiefely in this place then it should be thought that the strongest hold of all your religion the Popes supreme power to giue and take away kingdomes is shaken by a man so learned so famous so Catholike as Ferus But Sixtus saith not of his Commentaries on the Acts that they were corrupted also by heretikes Yet some heretikes hand may séeme to haue béene in them chiefely in this place where he doth reproue the arrogancie of the Popes and nameth them wicked Bishops Wherefore it would do well that the ouersight of Sixtus herein were mended by some other Sixtus who might say as much of Ferus on the Actes as Sixtus saith of him on Matthew Perhaps you haue not witnesses that wil auouch this as some auouched that The least matter of a thousand For two or three such as Surius Pontacus and Genebrardus men that haue sold them selues to make lies in the defense of Popery will be readie on the credite of a Lindan or Bolsecke not only to say it but to Chronicle it too Here is al the difficultie that these bookes are printed thus amongst your selues who set them foorth first and we receiue them at your hands A great faulte I know not whether of printers or censours and allowers of bookes to the print who suffer such scandalous places to bée printed Yea to be printed so still specially when Sixtus Senensis hath said and credible witnesses haue auouched that heretikes did corrupt them No no M. Hart it is too stale a iest to say that heretikes haue corrupted the commentaries of Ferus For the abomination of the Popes supremacie oppressing both the magistracie of the common wealth and ministerie of the Church is grown to such outrage that if we whom you call heretikes should hold our peace the stones would cry against it Hart. What néedes all this of Ferus Or Sixtus Or Canonistes Or I know not who You called me to the scriptures whē I brought the Fathers and now from the scriptures you bring me to writers of our owne age Rainoldes Not from the scriptures to them but to the scriptures by them As Christ when the Phariseis sclaundered his workes alleaged the example of their own children therby to make them sée the truth And as he said to them therefore your children shall be your iudges so I say to you therefore your brethren shall be your iudges Hart. I graunt that the Pope doth not in all respectes submit him selfe as Peter to giue account of his dooings both to the Apostles and to inferior Christians But Ferus should haue considered and so must you that the times are not like It were not conuenient for him to do so now Rainoldes So I thought the case is altered You meane by the times the mē who liue
from Papias also by one as good as himselfe euen by Clemens Alexandrinus Wherefore I know what credit it hath what truth I know not For if Cassiodorus Rhegino Ado and all the ecclesiasticall histories haue erred in saying that Peter did abide at Rome fiue and twentie yeares which errour they were caried into by Eusebius or whosoeuer first reported it why might they not also be deceyued in this point by the report of Papias or some who had it from Papias Though if it be true that S. Marke was Peters scholer at Rome yet this proueth not that he meant Rome by the name of Babylon For Peter saith onely the Church which is in Babylon Marke my sonne salute you Now Marke as your Papias also doth report did follow and accompanie Peter in his trauel So that he might be with him as well at Babylon in Chaldaea as in Italie at Rome Wherefore whether Peter were at Rome or no the proofe therof resteth vpon humane histories For this of Gods word whereby you would proue it faine saith nothing for it Which a learned man of our side hauing weighed and séeing the dissension of writers touching the time that hee came to Rome and knowing by the scripture that their spéeche of his abode in Rome is false and marking the shamefull practise of the Romanists in forging tales for their aduancement as Constantines donation and spying some such forgerie amongst their monuments of Peter as Linus fable of his death and finding his martyrdome mentioned by Ierom and Lyra in such sort as though he had béene crucified by the Scribes and Pharises he was brought by these the like perswasions into this opinion that Peter neuer came to Rome If you aske my iudgement I thinke he was deceiued therein And so doo many mo None of all the Protestants who haue dealt in writing of histories Chronicles to my knowledge one excepted denyeth that he was at Rome They who are straitest in it doo say it may be doubted it is no article of our faith and either he was not there or at another time then most autors thinke and lesse then fiue and twentie yeares Wherein what doo they say but that which is most true and manifest The greater wrong you doo vs to charge vs in general that we holde that Peter was neuer at Rome And to aggrauate the matter you muster vp the names of the ancient Fathers as though we did bande our selues against them all Whereas in verie déede they whom you count our captaines doo therefore graunt Peter to haue béene at Rome because the ancient Fathers affirme it so with one consent Yea some of them expounding those same wordes of Peter apply the name of Babylon to Rome as you doo some who allow not of that exposition yet graunt hée was at Rome And so the reproch of shamelesse partialitie which you cast on vs redoundeth on your selues For if you had any modestie and equitie you would neuer say that we denye Rome to be meant by Babylon because it would follow that Peter was at Rome and so forth Specially sith neyther all of vs deny it and many who denye it yet deny not but Peter was at Rome But whereas you adde that we deny it fearing hereby the sequele of Peters or the Popes supremacie at Rome therein you passe your selues in impudencie For we doo confesse and you too I trust that Peter was at Ioppe And doo we or rather you feare hereby the sequele of Peters or the Popes supremacie at Ioppe Hart. No because we reade not that he was Bishop of Ioppe We reade that he was Bishop of Rome Rainoldes But you can not proue it by those words of Peter which you would ground it on although it were graunted that he meant Rome by Babylon For the most that might be proued so therby is that he was at Rome Which furthereth no more the Pope of Rome then of Ioppe And thus you may sée what tragedies you make for how small trifles when you lay so heinous a crime to our charge for denying that which although we graunt we neyther winne nor lose by it Hart. But if he were at Rome it will be the likelyer that he was Bishop there And that hee was so Eusebius sheweth in his Chronicle Rainoldes I perceyue the Pope must fetch his supremacie from earth and not from heauen You are fallen againe from scripture to Eusebius Against whose autoritie I might take exception because he saith that Peter continued bishop of Rome preaching the gospel there fiue and twentie yeares which I haue proued to be vntrue Though if I may speake mine owne coniecture of it the difference of the Chronicle and historie of Eusebius concerning that point doth moue mee to thinke that it was not writen by Eusebius but by Ierom. For he in translating the Chronicle of Eusebius did enterlace some thinges which séemed to be omitted chiefely in the Roman storie Now Ierom might receiue it from Damasus bishop of Rome on whom he attended as a secretarie And Damasus was not so voide of all affection but he could be content to aduance the credit of his owne Sée by helping it to be reputed the bishoply See of Peter But whether Eusebius or Ierom or Damasus or whosoeuer haue saide that Peter was a Bishop either they vsed the name of Bishop generally and so it proueth not your purpose or if they meant it as commōly we do they missed the truth For generally a Bishop is an ouerseer In which signification it reacheth to all who are put in trust with ouersight charge of any thing as Eleazar is called Bishop of the tabernacle Christ the Bishop of our soules But in our cōmon vse of spéech it noteth him to whō the ouersight charge of a particular Church is committed such as were the Bishops of Ephesus of Philippi and they whom Christ calleth the Angels of the Churches Now Peter was not Bishop after this later sort for he was an Apostle and the Apostles were sent to preach to all the world Wherefore when the Fathers said he was a Bishop either they meant it in the former sense or ought to haue meant it This is somewhat harder to be perceiued by Ierom but others open it more plainely For he reckeneth Peter the first Bishop of Rome Linus the second Cletus the third Clemens the fourth and so the rest successiuely as likewise in Antioche Ignatius the third whereby Euodius is the second and Peter the first But Eusebius nameth Euodius the first Bishop of Antioche Ignatius the secōd and Irenaeus nameth Linus the first Bishop of Rome Cletus the second and so forth Whereby they declare that in their iudgement although Peter preached at Antioche and Rome both yet he was neither
in two Councels held at Rome the Emperour afraid of his fathers ende was glad to surrender the graunt of Pope Paschal into the hands of Pope Calistus and to restore him the possessions and royalties of S. Peter Thus was the Pope nâ—w become at the least the Emperours péere One policie there is left whereby he became the Emperours Lord. When Charles the great king of â—raunce by inheritance of Italie by conquest had after great benefites bestowed on the Papacie restored Pope Leo cast out by the Romans and come himselfe in person to Rome to see him setled the Pope in recompense and token of a thankefull minde thought good to honour him with the title of Emperour Which he did with ioly ceremonies and solemnitie laying an imperiall robe vpon his bodie a crowne of gold vpon his head anoynting him as Sadok did Salomon with oyle the people crying out thrise with ioyfull shoutes God saue Charles the great the godly Emperour of the Romans This honour the posteritie of Charles which succéeded him some times the Pope desired them sometimes themselues desired and vsed to receiue with the like solemnitie and holy pompe at Rome as their father had In processe of time the race of Charles lost the kingdome of Italie and Otho the German got it as Charles did by conquest Otho was crowned Emperour with the like solemnitie And from that time forward he that was king of Germanie held also the kingdome of Italie with the westerne Empire and therefore did receiue three crownes one of Germanie at Aken by the Bishop of Mens an other of Italie at Milan by the Bishop of Milan the third of the Empire at Rome by the Pope Neither did he vse the title of Emperour before the Pope had crouned him but was called the king of Germanie and Italie or the king of Romans and Emperour appointed But the Pope as a wise and politike Prince turned this point of ceremonie into a point of substance when he saw his time and because he gaue the title of Emperour and set a crowne on Emperours heads he sought to perswade men that he gaue the Empire and right of the crowne The time fit to doo it was when the troubles of the two Henries and the Councels sentence against Bishop Vecilo had bredde an opinion that the Pope had right to depose Emperours For thereof men would gather that he had right to make them also Wherefore when Lotharius the next after the Henries was crowned Emperour at Rome Pope Innocent the second who set the crowne vpon him caused the dooing of it to be painted on a wall in his palace of Lateran and vnder the picture these verses to be writen Rex venit ante fores iurans prius vrbis honores Pòst homo fit Papae sumit quo dante coronam The king doth come before the gate first swearing to the cities state The Popes man then doth he become of his gift doth take the crowne So finely by the Popes painting and poetrie was the feate wrought and as it were the whéele of thinges turned about that whereas the Pope before held his Princedome of the Emperour in fee now must the Emperour be thought to hold his Empire of the Pope in â—ee For though it be said that Painters and Poets may faine by authoritie yet he and his mates wâ—o fained this pageant did meane it should be taken for a matter of truth The proofe whereof appeared not many yeares after in the next Emperour that was crowned at Rome euen Friderike the first The Pope who crowned him it was Pope Nicolas Breake-speare called Adrian the fourth sending by occasion two legates vnto him Rowland and Bernard Cardinals with letters concerning the thing for which hée sent them did mention therein what honorable curtesie hee had shewed the Emperour and giuen him this benefite that he bestowed the crowne of the Empire on him Which letters being read the Emperour and his Nobles tooke it very euill that the Pope should write that he had giuen the Emperour the crowne of the Empire by way of a benefite And fearing least thereby he should meane that which some auouched also commonly that the kinges of Germanie doo obteine the Empire by the benefite of the Popes for the picture verses in the Palace of Lateran did plainely signifie as much they could not containe their griefe but they must needes say that the Empire is not the Popes benefite To whom when Cardinall Rowland one of the legates replyed And whose is it then if it bee not the Popes Otho the Countie Palatine standing by was moued so with that spéech that he drew his sword and would haue slaine the Cardinall But the Emperour stayed him and willed the legates to get them backe to Rome straight and signified by letters throughout all Germanie what embassage the Pope had sent him adding that he acknowledged the Empire to be giuen him by God alone and by the Princes who had chosen him and therefore desired them that they would not suffer the maiestie of the Empire so worthily gotten by their auncestours to be empaired by their default The Pope vnderstanding by the returne of his legates both in what perill they had béene and what the Emperour answered wrote letters thereupon to the Bishops of Germanie wherein he willed them to deale with the Emperour make him do his duetie The Bishops spake vnto him he answered them that he obeied the Pope gladly but the crowne of the Empire hee accounted him selfe to haue receyued of God chiefly and next of the Princes Electours of Germanie his regall coronation of the Bishoppe of Cooleine his imperiall of the Pope As for the Cardinalls whom the Pope had sent hee forbad them to go forward because he found that they had brought letters from the Pope to the endamaging of the Empire Heretofore the Empire hath lifted vp the Church but now the Church saith he doth presse downe the Empire It began with painting thence it came to writing now is the writing sought to be maintained by autoritie I will not suffer nay I will rather leaue my crowne then I will permit the autoritie of the Empire to be diminished any way Let the picture be razed out let the writing be called backe that there remaine not monuments still to raise strife betweene the kingdome and the priesthood and then shall there no duty be wanting of my part towardes the church of Rome This answere of the Emperour séemed so reasonable to the German Bishops that they aduised and wished Pope Breake-speare to pacifie his wrath with a gentler embassage The Popes chiefest instruments to plucke downe Henry the third were the German Bishops Wherefore Pope Breake-speare perceyuing that they were not so forwarde against Friderike as they had béene against Henry was fâ—ine to folow their aduise So he sent two
standeth not so much in making Church-officers as in iudging Church-causes And therein the second sort of Popes auouched as much as the last For Innocentius the first answering the letters of the Councell of Mileuis who had writen to him about the errour of the Pelagians doth prayse them for referring the matter vnto him and I thinke saith he that as oft as a matter of faith is called in question all our brethren and felow-bishops ought not but to referre it vnto Peter that is the autour of their name and honour as now your charitie hath doon Rainoldes Thâ—se wordes of Innocentius may proue M. Hart that he claimed a preeminence of knowledge for your Peter not a soueraintie of power a preeminence of knowledge to resolue the Church-questions not a soueraintie of power to decide the Church-causes For matters of faith are to be defined by the rule of faith that is by the scriptures and the right opening of the scriptures lyeth not in power but in knowledge Which you may learne by Gratian in the Canon law saying that the Fathers are preferred before the Popes in expounding of scriptures because they passe them in knowledge the Popes before the Fathers in deciding of causes because they passe them in power Hart. That distinction of causes and questions of the Church is but a shift of sophstrie to cast a mist vpon the truth For though the Church-causes as Gratian speaketh of them do concerne persons the innocent to be acquitted or offenders to be condemned yet questions of faith which you call Church-questions are Church-causes too in a generall sense As one of the third sort of Popes saith that greater causes of the Church chiefly such as touch the articles of faith are to be referred to the See of Peter And this was the meaning of Innocentius the first For in his letters to the Councell of Carthage writen to like effect on the same occasion he saith that the Fathers decreed by the sentence not of man but of God that whatsoeuer was doon in prouinces far of they thought that it ought not to be concluded before it came to the notice of the See of Rome Rainoldes It is true that questions of matters touching faith are causes of the Church but they are not such causes as quicken the Papacie The causes touching persons which Zosimus Boniface and Caelestine did deale for when they would haue it lawfull for Bishops Elders to appeale to Rome are those which Popes must liue by And the same Councels of Carthage and Mileuis whom Innocentius wrote too did know and shew this difference when they desired the Popes consent in that of faith but forbadde the causes of Bishops and Elders to come vnto him by appeales Wherefore that distinction of the Church-causes and the Church-questions is not a shift of sophistrie to cast a mist vpon the truth but a point of truth to cléere the mist of your sophistry For your Iesuit citeth those textes of Innocentius to proue the Popes supremacie Whereas he claimeth iudgement to resolue the douts or that is lesse autoritie to approue the doctrine not a soueraine power to heare and determin the causes of the Church Hart. Nay his wordes are generall to the Councell of Carthage that whatsoeuer was doon in prouinces farre off it should come to the notice of the See of Rome before it were concluded Rainoldes But if you doo racke that word whatsoeuer so farre beyond his drift you make him more gréedy then the last sort of Popes who claime the greater causes of the Church onely Wherefore as when S. Paul saith all thinges are lawfull for me he meaneth not all thingâ—s absolutely and simply but all indifferent thinges according to the point which he treateth of so must you apply the wordes of Innocentius not to whatsoeuer touching Church-causes but to matters of faith called into question which the Popes being learned then and Catholike the Christian Churches vsed to referre to them that the truth approued by their consent and iudgement might for their autoritie finde the greater credit fréer passage against heretikes Hart. What say you then to Leo the great or rather to S. Gregorie who had the Church-causes euen such as touched persons referred to their Sée and willed them to be so as their epistles shew Rainoldes In déede Leo and Gregorie are somewhat large that way Though Leo as the diocese of the Roman Patriarke was lesser in his time then afterwarde in Gregories so had fewer of them Gregorie had more yet he had not all Hart. Not all but all the greater And that is as much as the last sort of Popes claime Rainoldes But they claime all the greater through the whole world which Gregorie neither had nor claimed Hart. No Is it not manifest by all his Epistles that hée dealt with the causes of Bishops in Italie Spaine Fraunce Afrike Corsica Sardinia Sicilia Dalmatia and many countries mo Rainoldes Yet he dealt neither with all the greater causes nor through the whole world And this very shew of the names of couÌ„tries by which your Irish champion doth thinke the Popes supremacie to be cléerely proued is a demonstration in truth to disproue it For rehersing only those which you haue named with England Ireland Corcyra and Graecia and saying that Gregorie did practise the supremacie ouer their Bishops and Churches though neither prouing so much but admit he proued it yet in bringing only the names and proofes of these he sheweth that Gregorie did not practise it ouer the Bishops and Churches of Thracia Mysia Scythia Galatia Bithynia Cappadocia Armenia Pamphylia Lydia Pisidia Lycaonia Phrygia Lycia Caria Hellespontus Aegypt Iury Phoenicia Syria Cilicia Cyprus Arabia Mesopotania Isauria with the rest of the countries subiect to the Patriarkes of Constantinople Alexandria Antioche and Ierusalem Hart. Though S. Gregorie speake not of these particularly yet he sheweth in generall his supremacie ouer them For whereas the Patriarke saith he doth confesse himselfe to be subiect to the See Apostolike if any fault bee founde in Bishops I know not what Bishop is not subiect to it Behold not onely Bishops but the Patriarkes also subiect to the Pope by S. Gregories iudgement yea by their owne confession Rainoldes Nay it was not a Patriarke but a Primate who confessed that And a Primate is but a Bishop of the first and cheefest See in a Prouince that is a Metropolitan Hart. It was Primas Byzancenus that is to say the Patriarke of Constantinople as it is expounded in the glose on Gratian For Constantinople was called Byzantium first Rainoldes Gratian and his glose were deceiued both For primas Byzacenus or Byzancenus if you reade it so is Primate of Byzacium called Byzantium too which was a prouince of Afrike and therfore had a Primate as Councels of that countrie shew Whom and not the Patriarke
pillers yea by the Councell of the Apostles and Elders at Ierusalem and being so confirmed was receiued more redily and gladly both at Antioche and in other cities in so much that the Churches were stablished in the faith and increased in number daily The men of God therfore who in ancient time were assembled together to vphold the truth desired the consent some time of all Bishops as in the Councell of Sardica sometime of the Pope as in the Councell of Carthage not for that they thought that else their decrées should be of no force but because they knew that the consent of such would adde the greater credit to them And that generall Councels if they had desired the Pope to confirme them which all of them did not but if they had done so yet must haue done it in this consideration you may sée by a piller and ground of your Councel of Trent euen Andradius Who not only voucheth that most learned mē do most wisely thinke it as Alfonsus namely but alleageth also Cardinall Turrecremata the chéefest patrone of the Pope for proofe of the same or rather of a farther point For if there shoulde happen such a case sayth the Cardinal that al the Fathers assembled in a generall Councell should make a decree touching any matter of fayth with one accord and the Pope alone gainesaied that decree men ought in my iudgement to obey the Councell therein and not the Pope And why Because the iudgement of so many Fathers of a generall Councel seemeth to be iustly and worthily preferred before the iudgement of one man in a matter of faith Wherevpon he addeth that the Councell then is aboue the Pope not in power of iurisdiction but in autoritie of iudgement to discerne thinges and in amplenesse of knowledge Thus it is apparant by your owne Doctors that to confirme Councels importeth an autoritie the Pope had not power and that hée was not soueraine in autoritie neither no not as much as equall but inferiour to them So farre is it off from prouing his supremacie Hart. Though Councels be aboue the Pope in autoritie after the opinion of Cardinall Turrecremata yet you sée he setteth the Pope aboue them in power of iurisdiction wherin his supremacie doth principally stand And that did the Fathers acknowledge by their déedes too For Athanasius Bishop of Alexandria Paul of Constantinople Asclepas of Gaza Marcellus of Ancyra Lucian of Adrianople and very many other Bishops of the East being driuen out of their Churches by the Arians did appeale to the Pope as ecclesiasticall stories shew Rainoldes The stories shew it not but he who sayth they shew it sheweth that he dealeth with them in this point as in the former with S. Cyrill Hath he abused you so often and will you neuer cease to credit him Hart. The stories shew that they came to Rome to Pope Iulius and he for the prerogatiue and dignitie of his Sée restored them to their Churches perceiuing that the Arians had depriued them wrongfully Rainoldes The dignitie and prerogatiue of the See of Rome in restoring them was but of autoritie and honour not of power For the power of hearing and iudging their cause did rest in the Councell assembled then at Rome Which Iulius himself and Athanasius both do testifie Athanasius who speaking thereof ascribeth it plainly to the Councell Iulius who being reproued by the Arians for ouerthwarting that which they had done in their Councell answereth that the doinges of a former Councell may lawfully be sifted and examined in an other that themselues had offred to haue the cause debated so in iust iudgement and thereto had requested a Councell to be called that Athanasius and the rest appeered at the Councell and they who should haue also appeered made defaute that hereupon the Councell finding their iniquitie relieued the parties wrongfully oppressed to be short that whatsoeuer he dealt or wrote therein he did it on the Coūcels iudgement and consent not on his owne head Wherefore it was not the Pope but the Councell that heard and determined the causes of Bishops whether at first or on appeales Such power of iurisdiction nether did Iulius claime nor Athanasius giue him Hart. Yes there is an other epistle of Iulius wherein hée claimed such power and that vpon the canons of the Councell of Nice Rainoldes I told you of epistles which séemed to be written by some of the Popes horse-kéepers or cookes This is one of them It should be the very same that I alleaged extant in Athanasius But it is no liker it then black is to white The canons which it coineth with the image and superscription of the Nicen Fathers bewray the lewdnesse of it The more because Iulius in the same epistle as Athanasius hath it citeth their autoritie for the Councell aboue the Pope who in this are cited for the Pope aboue the Councell Wherefore sith Athanasius hath his right epistle as it is confessed you must be content to let the other go for a counterfeit Hart. Yet Socrates Sozomē report that Iulius wrote in his epistle to the Arians that whereas they called not him vnto the Councell therein they did vnlawfully because it was prouided by a law of the Church that things which were decreede and done without the Popes consent shoulde be voide Rainoldes If Iulius had writen so to the Arians Iulius had writen a manifest vntruth For by the Nicen Canons which were the chiefest lawes of the Church at that time it was ordered that Councels should be kept yeerely twise in euery prouince To all which it were ridiculous to say that they must call the Pope or that they might doo nothing there but what he liked of But Socrates and Sozomen did mistake Iulius as Stapleton doth now And whereas he had said know ye not that this is the maner and custome that ye should write to vs first that hēce might be decreed the thing which is iust they thought that he had spoken of himselfe belike and had meant the Pope by the word vs by which he meant the Councell For he wrote that epistle in the Councels name as Athanasius noteth and himselfe sheweth it by saying straight before ye ought to haue written vnto all vs that so that which is iust might be decreed by all Hart. Whatsoeuer you conceue of the doings and writings of Athanasius and Iulius yet can you not denie but Flauianus Bishop of Constantinople appealed to Pope Leo from the Councell of Ephesus deposing him vniustly And so did Theodoret Bishop of Cyrus too For the Emperour Valentinian witnesseth the one and Theodoret himselfe the other Rainoldes Flauianus appealed from the Councel of Ephesus but to a greater and a more lawfull Councell not to Pope Leo. Which appéereth by an epistle of Leo himselfe complayning to the Emperour Theodosius
as our ancestours vnder the Pope as Ionathan Nor was it such turpitude for the nation of the Iewes to haue had religion reformed by two Kings though in a few yeares it caused sundrie alterations as for the nation of the Romans to haue kept idolatrie without alteration vnder high Priests for a thousand yeares together Hart. Well Whatsoeuer opinion you haue of the Princes supremacie your own Centurie-writers coÌ„trol it in generall Caluin in particular the grant thereof to King Harrie For they both reproue the title of head And it is al one to be head of the Church to be chiefe gouernour of causes ecclesiasticall Rainoldes Caluin reproueth not the title of head as the Protestants graunted it but that sense thereof which Popish Prelates gaue namely Steuen Gardiner who did vrge it so as if they had meant thereby that the king might do thinges in religion according to his owne will and not â—ée theÌ„ dâ—on according to Gods wil. In like sort is the headship of the Church controlled by the Centurie-writers For they say that Princes ought not to be heads to coine formes of religioÌ„ frame new points of faith as Ieroboam did his calues So what they mislike yâ— we grant not to Princes What we grant to Princes that they mislike not Nay the Centurie-writers do giue the same supremacie to our Prince that we do nor only to ours but to al in general Which Caluin also doth Nor only hée or they but the reformed Churches whole with one consent I might say euen your owne men too Yea euen your selfe too M. Hart. For when vpon occasion of spéech that I had with you touching this poynt before we did enter into conference by writing I brought you M. Nowels answere to Dorman wherin he hath confuted pithily and plainly the cauils which your Maister blancheth out of Caluin and the ancient Fathers against the Quéenes supremacie requesting you to reade it ouer you told me hauing read it that you had mistaken our doctrinâ— of that point and that if we gaue the Prince no greater soueraintie then M. Nowell doth you did agrée with vs. Hart. Indéed I had thought so do many take it that you meant to giue as much to the Prince by the title of the supremacie as we do to the Pope Where you giue no more me thinkes by M. Nowel theÌ„ S. Austin doth who saith that Kings do serue God in this as Kings if in their own realme they coÌ„mauÌ„nd good things forbid euil not only coÌ„cerniÌ„g the ciuil state of meÌ„ but the religion of God also And thus much I subscribe too Rainoldes Wil you procéede then to the later point wherein you would proue you sayd that the faith which we proâ—esse in England is not the Catholike faith Hart. I haue proued it alredy in part For the Catholike faith is the which we professe in the Church of Rome You professe not ye. As the points that you haue touched by the way of scriptures of traditioÌ„s of merits of sacrameÌ„ts of Priesthoode of the Masse the real preseÌ„ce the worship of Saints suÌ„dry others shew But I wil coÌ„fer no farder herof vnles I haue greter assuraÌ„ce of my life Rainoldes Assurance of your life to procéede in coÌ„fereÌ„ce by Gods grace you haue At least as great assurance as hetherto you haue had But you should rather say you wil conferre no farder vnlesse you had better assurance of your cause For that is the catholike faith which the Apostles did preach to al nations The Apostles preached that which is writen in the holy scriptures Therefore that which is writen is the catholike faith But the faith which we professe is all writen The faith which we professe then is the Catholike faith And this should appéerâ— as well in other pointes as in those alreadie touched if you would sift them The Lord grant you grace to consider of it that whatsoeuer become of your life temporall you may haue assurance of eternall life through knowledge of his holy truth SIX CONCLVSIONS touching THE HOLY SCRIPTVRE AND THE CHVRCH Proposed expounded and defended in publike disputations at Oxford by Iohn Rainoldes 1 The holy scripture teacheth the Church all things necessarie to saluation 2 The militant Church may erre both in maners and in doctrine 3 The authoritie of the holy scripture is greater then the authoritie of the Church 4 The holy Catholike Church which wee beleeue is the whole company of Gods elect and chosen 5 The Church of Rome is not the Catholike Church nor a sound member of the Catholike Church 6 The reformed Churches in England Scotland Fraunce Germanie and other kingdomes and common-weales haue seuered themselues lawfully from the Church of Rome Ierem. 51.9 We would haue healed Babylon but she is not healed forsake her ô children of God and let vs goe euerie one into his owne countrey TO THE RIGHT WORSHIPFVLL and reuerend in Christ the heads of Colleges and companie of students of the Vniuersitie of Oxford Iohn Rainoldes wisheth grace and peace from God the father and from our Lord Iesus Christ. WHen Anna the mother of Samuel had brought vp her child whom she had obtained of God with earnest prayers to put from her selfe the reproch of barennesse she consecrated him to God before Eli the Priest that he might liue and serue in the temple of the Lord. In like maner I desiring to consecrate to the temple of the Lord my Samuel as it were the first child of trauaile that God hath geuen to my barrennes haue thought good to present him to God before you fathers and brethren welbeloued in Christ who either are already or shall be put in trust with the charge of the temple to serue if it may any way the temple of the liuing God Perhaps a rash enterprise vndertaken somewhat more boldly then aduisedly chiefly séeing that it is so far inferior to the ripenes of Samuel And truely I haue hetherto béene stil of the minde that I had leiffer the things which I had brought foorth rather as vntimely fruites then perfit children should be kept within then come abroad into the light stay in the court of the temple then presse into the temple For I haue béen dealt with both oft and earnestly by my very frends that I would suffer to be printed and published as other sclender exercises made rather for the fence-schoole as you would say then for the field so chiefly my Orations which when I read the Gréeke lecture in our College I made to mine audience coÌ„cerning the studies of humanitie and philosophie Which yet I haue refrained to doo not of enuie for I haue addicted my selfe to wish well vnto the Church common wealth neither of vnkindnes as though I were not willing to gratifâ—e them whom I was greatly bound too but partly
doctrine swéete of Christ their master fedde By preaching first by wryting then to nations all if spred And these bookes hath the holy Ghost set foorth for mortall wights That we in course of faith and life might folow them as lights Auant all ye who brain-sick toies and fansies vaine defend Who on humane traditions and Fathers sawes depend The holy written word of God doth shew the perfit way Whereby from death to life arise from curse to blisse we may 2 The militant Church may erre both in maners and in doctrine TO warfare euery one dooth goe that serueth Christ in field To warfare all their names are billed who doo Gods armour wéelde And doost thou man in warfare serue and art thou frée from blowes And may no dart thy body pearce assaulted by the foes The citie of Ierusalem with holy Church was dight That holy Church kept not her course at all assaies aright Corinthus godly was and pure Philippi shone full bright The faith of Thessalonians was spred in glorious plight Corinthus pure is stayned now Philippi lyes defaced Your praise O Thessalonians is by the Turke disgraced And thou O Rome the Qâ—éene of pride which swell'st on mountaines seuen Thy hart is pearst with deadly wound thou fall'st to hell from heauen While that the Church doth make abode on earth in seats of clay Am I deceiued or may she féele the dint of errours sway 3 The holy scripture is of greater autoritie then the Church THe godlesse rowt inflam'd with lust of holding scepter hie Dooth lift the stately throne of Rome vnto the golden skie Unto the skie that pride were â—inall nay faâ—re aboue the skie Subduing Christ his scepter great to Romish royaltie Men say that Giants did attempt the heauenly powers to quell What doo they raise new warres againe from grisly gulfe of hell The holy church may for it selfe claime worthy gifts of right T is great I graunt but lesse I trust then is the Lord of might Let mortall things geue place to God let men to Christ accord The wife to man the earth to heauen the subiect to the Lord. ALthough I am not ignorant right worshipfull audience that Cato the graue Censour reprooued a certaine Roman who taking vpon him to write a storie in Greeke had rather craue pardon of his fault in dooing it then kéepe himselfe cléere from committing that fault yet so it hath hapned to me at this present yelding shal I say thereto or refusing it surely some what against my will but so it hath hapned that I who could not choose but commit a faut am forced to request you to pardon my faut For both the weakenes of my voice because it is not able to fill the largenesse of this place wil discontent perhaps them who heare me not and the vnripenesse of my abilitiâ— which I feare me will not answere the solemnitie of this assemblie in handling those things that are to be debated will of likelihoode be reproued by them who heare me How much the more earnestly I am to request by word you that heare me by will the rest who heare me not that either you wil be no Censours at all or els be more fauourable Censours then Cato least either you iudge me to haue dealt vnwisely who did not kéepe my selfe from fault or impudent who first commit it and then request you not to blame it Neither do I dout but I shal finde defense for the weakenes of my voice in your frendly curtesiâ— before whom I speake for the vnripenes of my abilitie in the goodnes of the cause which I haue to speake off For that your curtesie will condemne me of that fault which I could not eschew I néede not to feare And the goodnes of the cause hath in it such euident and cléere light of trueth that I doo not dout it will defend it selfe though no man pleade for it Wherein I hope also that you euen your selues either doo already or will agrée with me if you shall heare me open as briefly as I may the meaning of the thrée Conclusions that I hâ—ld the perfection of the scripture the infirmitie of the Church the autoritie of them both For as for the praise and commendation of Diuinitie whereof the beginning is from heauen the maiestie diuine the office to be an instrument of saluation to mankinde which was ordeyned by God the father reueled by Iesus Christ registred in writing by the holy Ghost I cannot speake thereof as I would according to the woorthines of the thing as I may according to my power I ought not In the one I hope you approue my good will in the other I beséech you take my iudgement in good part For I doâ— not say by way of amplification colourably that I refraine therefore from the praising of it because my woundering at it dooth dasell like the brightnesse of the sun-beames the eyes of my minde as Tully faineth of Caesar that the people shewed not their good will toward him by ioyful clapping of their hands because that they being amazed with woondring at him could not stirre themselues But as the prophet Esay witnesseth of God that when he behelde his maiestie he was dismaied because he was a man of polluted lips vnworthie to behold the king and Lord of hostes so may I protesâ— from my hart in trueth that when I consider the highnes of Gods worde I holde my peace as amazed because I am a man of polluted lips vnfitte to touch the noblenesse of a thing so woorthie Wherefore I willingly leaue these Iuy-garlands to be hanged vp by them who vent the wine of Philosophie Physike and Lawe which artes very profitable but for the life that fadeth excellent but humaine commendable but transitorie beutifull but brittle I dout not but already the learning and eloquence of men well séene therein hath made you wel to like of in this exercise of disputations Now I take a greater enterprise in hand for the valour of the thing which I am to deale with though nether with better witte nor deeper iudgement then they whom I folow in the course of dealing Liuie reporteth that Annibal hauing purposed to fightâ—with the Romans did cause certaine couples of captiues to fight one with an other hand to hand before he set his souldiers in battaile aray that his Carthaginians might by that pastime of the captiues combat addresse them selues with better consideration and courage to the serious and set battaile In like sorte there haue béene brought before you gentle audience to the combat sundrie opinions of sundrie artes as it were cooples of captiues which whether they liue or dye be so or not so it skilleth not greatly the state of the realme is not ventured vpon it But now from that sporting conflict of light matters there cometh to the battaile for earnest tryall of thinges of weight host against host truth against falshood religion against errour wherein if we swarue out
and our Church doth hold The third Councell of Carthage which therein the Councel of Trent subscribeth to did adde the bookes of Maccabes the rest of the apocrypha to the old Canon The Councel of Nice appointed boundes and limits as wel for the Bishop of Romes iurisdiction as for other Bishops The Councell of Lateran gaue the soueraintie of ordinarie power to the Church of Rome ouer al other Churches The Councell of Constance decréed that the Councell is aboue the Pope and made the Papall power subiect to generall Councels Which thing did so highly displease the Councell of Florence that it vndermined the Councell of Basill and guilefully surprised it for putting that in â—re against Pope Eugenius Upon the which pointes it must needes be graunted that one side of these generall Councels did erre vnlesse we will say that thinges which are contrarie may be true both Wherefore to make an end sith it is apparant by most cléere proofes that both the chosen and the called both the flockes and the Pastours both in seuerall by them selues and assembled together in generall Councels may erre I am to conclude with the good liking I hope of such as loue the truth that the militant Church may erre in maners and doctrine In the one point whereof concerning maners I defend our selues against the malicious sclanders of the Papists who charge the Church of England with the heresie of Puritans impudently and falsly In the other concerning doctrine I doo not touch the walles of Babilon with a light finger but raze from the very ground the whole mount of the Romish Synagogue Whose intolerable presumption is reproued by the third Conclusion too wherein it resteth to be shewed that the holy scripture is of greater credit autoritie then the Church And although this be so manifestly true that to haue proposed it onely is to haue proued it yet giue me leaue I pray to proue it briefly with one reason I will not trouble you with many All the wordes of scripture be the wordes of truth some wordes of the Church be the words of errour But he that telleth the truth alwayes is more to be credited then he that lyeth sometimes Therefore the holy scripture is to be credited more then is the Church That all the wordes of scripture be the wordes of truth it is out of controuersie For the whole scripture is inspired of God and God can neither deceiue nor be deceiued That some wordes of the Church be the wordes of errour if any be not perswaded perhaps by the reasons which I haue brought already let him heare the sharpese and most earnest Patrone of the Church confessing it Andradâ—us Payua a Doctor of Portugall the best learned man in my opinion of all the papists reherseth certaine pointes wherein Councels also may erre euen generall Councels in so much that he saith that the very generall Councel of Chalcedon one of those four first which Gregorie professeth him selfe to receiue as the foure bookes of the holy Gospell yet Andradius saith that this Councell erred in that it did rashly and without reason these are his own wordes ordeine that the Church of Constantinople should be aboue the Churches of Alexandria and Antiâ—â—he Neither doth he onely say that the Councell of Chalcedon erred and contraried the decrees of the Nicen Cuncell but he addeth also a reason why Councels may erre in such cases to weete because they folow not the secret motion of the holy ghost but idle Blastes of vaine reportes and mens opinions which deceiue oft A Councell then may folow some times the deceitfull opinions of men and not the secret motion of the holy ghost Let the Councels then giue place to the holy scriptures whereof no part is vttered by the spirit of man but all by the spirit of God For if some cauiller to shift of this reason shall say that we must not account of that errour as though it were the iudgement of the generall Councell because the Bishop of Rome did not allow it and approue it I would request him first of all to weigh that a generall Councell and assemblie of Bishops must néedes be distinguished from this and that particular Bishop so that what the greater part of them ordeineth that is ordeined by the Councell next to consider that the name of Church may be giuen to an assemblis of Bishops and a Councell but it can not be giuen to the Bishop of Rome lastly to remember that the Bishop of Rome Honorius the first was condemned of heresie by the generall Councell of Constantinople allowed and approued by Agatho Bishop of Rome Wherefore take the name of Church in what sense soeuer you list be it for the company either of Gods chosen or of the called too or of the guides and Pastours or be it for the Bishop of Rome his owne person though to take it so it seemeth very absurd the Bishop of Rome him selfe if he were to be my iudge shall not be able to deny vnlesse his forhead be of adamant but that some of the Churches words are wordes of errour Now if the Bishop of Rome and Romanistes them selues be forced to confesse both that the Church saith some things which are erroneous and that the scripture saith nothing but cleere truth shall there yet be found any man either so blockishly vnskilfull or so frowardly past shame as that he dare affirme that the Church is of greater credit and autoritie then the holy scripture Pighius hath doon it in his treatise of the holy gouernment of the church Where though he in 〈◊〉 â—â—llify with gallant salues his cursed spéech yet to build the tower of his Church and Antichrist with the ruines of Christ and of the holy scripture first he saith touching the writings of the Apostles that they were giuen to the church not that they should rule our faith and religion but that they should bee ruled rather and then he concludeth that the autoritie of the church is not onely not inferiour not onely equall nay it is superiour also after a sort to the autoritie of the scriptures Plinie reporteth that there was at Rome a certaine diall set in the field of Flora to note the shadowes of the sunne the notes and markes of which diall had not agreed with the sunne for the space of thirty yeares And the cause thereof was this as Plinie saith that either the course of the sunne was disordered and changed by some meanes of heauen or els the whole earth was slipt away from her centre The Church of Rome séemeth to be very like this diall in the field of Flora. For she was placed in the Roman territorie to shew the shadowes of the sunne euen of the sunne of righteousnes that is of Christ but her notes and markes haue not agreed with Christ these many yeares togither Not that
the which the ministers of God are remoued from gouernance by the Pope who being not a voluntarie Senator as Tully iesteth at Asinius himselfe chosen by him selfe but a voluntary tyrant doth take vpon him selfe the rule of the whole church Who to get the soueraintie that he aspireth to doth cast off the foly of Paul and of Peter and neither will him selfe nor suffereth his to be subiect vnto higher powers Who autoriseth him selfe to giue and take away the dominions and kingdomes of the whole world as if that all Princes held their right of him Who chalengeth the two swordes as he termeth them the spirituall and temporall and that by the gospell because it was saide for sooth by the Apostles Beholde herâ— are two swordes Who hauing committed the temporall sword in part to ciuill magistrates and reserued it in part to him selfe hath put vp the spirituall sworde of all Pastors into his owne sheath Who of church-ministers hath made him selfe Cardinals felowes of kinges gardians of Princes Protectors of nations a Senate meete for such a â—arquin Who exacteth an oth of Emperours of Bishops of Christian common wealthes Uniuersities and Churches to be obedient vnto him Who admitteth I say not Cornelius the Centurion which Peter yet would neuer haue doon but the Lordes of Centurions euen Kinges and Keisars Emperours and Empresses to kisse his blessed feete Finally who being in Princely attire and accompanied with Princely traine serued not by common but by noble men wearing not a single but a triplâ— Crowne called by his Parasites our Lord God the Pope by discréete Doctors most good in grace most great in power as full of riotous pompe and pride as euer were the Persian kings z His clothes bedeckt with precious stones â—his gorgeous miter dight With iewels rare with glistring gold with Pyropus bright O very Troian truls not Troians hath taken the state ecclesiasticall of Christ appointed in noble order as an army set in aray and hath transformed it as it were with an enchauntment of the whoore of Babylon into a visisible monarchie and kingdome of the Romans And that the old saying might be fulfilled new Lordes new lawes such lippes such lettise as one said of an asse that was eating thistles this new Prince the Pope hath brought in new lawes to gouerne his kingdome in stéede of Gods lawes which Christ would haue to rule his Church and in stéede of the Canon of the holy scriptures he hath ordeined his Canon law Touching the vnrighteousnes of the which law least any man should think me perhaps to finde fault with that I haue no skill in as the shoomaker did whom Apelles warned not to presume beyond his shooe I had leiffer you should heare the iudgement of a learned Doctour and professour of the law then mine Francis Duaren a man of great skill in both the lawes ciuill and canon and named amongst lawiers the chiefest lawier of our time hath writen a learned treatise touching the holy functions and liuings of the Church as it were an abridgement of the canon law allowed by the iudgement of the Parlament of Parisâ— and set foorth with the priuiledge of the French king that no man can iustâ—y 〈◊〉 either the autor or the worke as hereticall In 〈…〉 then of the said treatise declaring that the body of the Canon law consisteth of two parts to weete Decrees and 〈◊〉 Decrees which were gathered together by Gratian 〈◊〉 epistles writen by sundry Popes he saith that in the â—irâ—t volume of Decretales conteining fiue bookes set out in the name of Gregory the ninth there are many things that doo much degenerate and grow out of kinde from that old discipline comprised in the former booke of Decrees And hence arose that saying which is common and famous amongst our countriemen he meaneth the Frenchmen Things haue gone ill with men since tales were added to Decrees that is since the time that in steed of the Decrees the Decretales did beare sway For the Church-causes had lost their olde simplicitie when Decrees were patched out with those tales as the world is wont to growe worse and worse So destenies do prouide That all thinges fall vnto decay and backe efisoones they slide As for the other volume the sixth booke of Decretales which Boâ—iface the eighth added it hath not bene receiued in the kingdome of France because the constitutions and ordinances thereof are thought to haue bene purposely made the most part of them in hatred and despite of Philip the French king and for the game of the court of Rome No not the Clementines neither nor Extrauagants the last part of the Decretales are voyde of like faultes nay the later lawes of the Popes be commonly worse then the former And this is the body of the Canon-law these are the Popes statutes by the which though very vnméete for the church in Duarens iudgement yet is the church of Rome gouerned and it is so gouerned that the Decrees which are the better part haue lesse autoritie the Decretales which are woorse haue greater force in Church-causes and are more authenticall Yea the matter came to that passe that Gratian the principall autor of the Canon law would haue had the Decretall epistles of the Popes to be accounted holy and reckened in the number of the Canonicall scriptures For the better compassing and credite whereof he did most shamefully corrupt a saying of S. Austins But it would not â—ay In so much that the Papists Alfonsus and Andradius are them selues ashamed of that his either wilfull fault or ouersight The Decretales therefore remaine not in the number of the Canonicall scriptures which hope the Giants fayled of through the diuision of their toungs yet equall in autoritie to the canonicall scriptures yea aboue them in deciding Church-causes at Rome For that which S. Bernard complained off to Pope Eugenius long since he might complaine off to any Pope in our time if he were aliue the lawes keepe a great sturre dayly in your Palace but the lawes of Iustinian not the lawes of the Lord. Whether iustly or no looke you to that For doutlesse the law of the Lord is vndefiled and conuerteth soules But these are not so much lawes as law-quarels and strifes subuerting iudgement Besides that the maner of dealing which is vsed in debating causes is too too abominable and such as is maruellous vnseemely for the church nay it were not seemely for the common place where ciuill matters are handled He meaneth that maner which the Popes Court of Chauncerie at Rome had bred long before though it were not growen yet to that bignesse to which it shot vp afterwarde euen that maner of dealing which is practised in the brabbles and cauils of aduocates
fruites and other policies of the Popes to the end that he and his Courtly traine may be more rich in wealth more galant in brauery more high in Princely state Hath not all Christendome borne to their griefe the yoke of the ambition and couetousnes of Rome which crieth out like Iudas what wil ye geue me There is extant in print the defense and Apologie of the Church of England shewing fresh markes of the Roman tyranny wherewith our countrie hath béen seared as with a hote burning yron There is extant a supplication of the parlament of Paris wherein the Frenchmen request their king to ease them of the cursed extortions iniuries and guiles of the Court of Rome There are extant the hundred greeuances of Germany whose complaints writen as it were with their own blood doo shew with what outrage the Sée of Rome hath throwen down oppressed brused and spoyled that most noble nation There are extant infinite bookes of lamentations writen by lerned men of al coastes quarters in the middest of the Papacy confessing all with one consent that the discipline of the church is greatly decayed The Papistes themselues in the Councell of Trent doo not confesse it onely but also witnesse it by publike writing to the world There was gathered together a Councell at Constance about an eight score yéeres since that the church might be reformed both in the head and in the members The matter not being accomplished at Constance was enterprised againe at Basill But Eugenius the fourth who was Pope then could not abide the reformation and therefore reuoked the Councell of Basill by messages and bulles which sith they disobeied he brake it vp by force of armes And whereas there was made an act by the French king with his States that sundry decrees and ordinances of that Councel should be of force in France the Popes who succéeded Eugenius neuer rested till they had gotten that act repealed The last hope remained in the Councell of Trent and truely many things were decréed there for points of reformation wisely and worthily But thrée spots of mischiefes touched by Heruetus a Papist of so much the greater weight his testimonie is against Papists doo renue the old corruptions one that the decrees although they were made were not obserued yet another that although they should be obserued yet they are not such as might restore fully the ancient good orders the last that although they restored the ancient orders yet doo they litle good because the Pope is not bound to lawes him selfe and he dispenseth with whom he list so that medicines heale not the wounds but make them woorse as long as the Pope may repeale alter peruert and breake through the decrees of the Councell with his dispensations And out of all dout that detestable clause annexed to decrees of reformation in the Councell prouided alwaies that the Popes autoritie be safe and no way preiudiced dooth shew the Roman Church to be not onely sick but also past hope of recouering her health For as in mens bodies the greater the spleene waxeth the lesser waxe the rest of the members they say so the more safe the Popes autoritie is the lesse safe will all parts of the Church be The Court of Rome with poyson strōg infected to destroy With the contagion of her sores dooth countries all anoy Wherfore to knitte vp the summe of my reason séeing it is manifest by the very euidence of the things themselues that nether the faith of Christ is taught purely nor the sacraments rightly ministred nor prayers made religiously nor discipline duely practised in the Church of Rome if the former reason of causes séeme too weake yet is it fully proued I hope by the effects that the Church of Rome is no sound member of the Catholike church How much more absurde were it to count her the Catholike Church The Church of Rome therefore is neither the Catholike nor a sound member of the Catholike Church I haue stayed longer in opening this Conclusion then I had purposed but I may runne ouer the last so much the more speedily For knowing how the Church of Rome is infected with pestilent diseases the contagion whereof as the lepers sore because it is daungerous to them who dwell neere it must therefore be remoued out of the campe of the faithfull we may be assured that the reformed Churches in England Scotland Fraunce Germanie and other kingdomes common weales haue seuered themselues lawfully from the Church of Rome For that is done lawfully which is done by the warrant of the word of God all whose commaundements are righteousnesse saith the Prophet But the reformed Churches obeyed his commandement in seuering themselues from the Church of Rome Therefore they seuered themselues from the Church of Rome lawfully For as ecclesiasticall societies and Church-assemblies were ordained by God that his elect and chosen should seeke him and praise him that is learne to know him and worship him being known so where his right faith and knowledge is not taught or he is not serued and worshipped aright thence doth he commaund his seruants to depart To depart first from that Church-assemblie where his right faith and knowlege is not taught the charge is giuen to Timothee Whom S. Paul aduertising of such as taught other doctrine then he did and not the wholesome words of Christ and godly doctrine declareth the qualities and fruites of those woolues and biddeth him depart from them from such sayth Paul depart thou depart thou frō their assembly and Church For so must such teachers be departed from as himselfe declared by his example at Ephesus Where he frequented the synagogue of the Iewes for the space of three moneths But when certaine obstinate disobedient persons spake euill of the way of God before the multitude he departed from them and separated the disciples So that hée seuered not himselfe onely but others also from that Church wherein the way of God was euill spoken of and men were not taught to know and beléeue in him aright Now that we must likewise depart from that Church wherein God is not serued and worshipped aright it is writen to the Corinthians Who being admonished to flee from idolatrie and from al communion with idolatrous worship are charged not to yoke thēselues with idolaters in their assemblies méetinges For what fellowship hath righteousnesse with vnrighteousnesse light with darkenesse Christ with Belial the faithful with the infidell the temple of God with idols Wherfore come out from among them and separate your selues sayth the Lord. Separate your selues from them sayth the Lord the Lord sayth not I. The Lord sayth to the Iewes go ye not vp to Beth-auen not Hosea but the Lord sayth It is called Beth-el but it is
infallible the councels interpretation And these meanes he saith are the onely certaine sure infallible meanes of vnderstanding and expounding the Scripture aright As for other meanes which learned men do vse such as you obserued out of S. Austin he graunteth they are profitable but deceitfull many waies if ech of them be seuerally taken by it selfe Which he proueth in particular by the chiefest of them first the weighing of circumstances what goeth before what commeth after next the wordes and kinde of speeches vsed in the Scriptures thirdly the conferēce of places togither one to be lightned by an other fourthly recourse to the fountaines of the Greeke and the Hebrue text Wherefore though I acknowledge your way to be a good way and such as I am well content to walke in when these our waies shall lead me to it notwithstanding sith it is common to vs with all Heretikes yea with Iewes and Painims who do all conferre places obserue the kinde of spéeches looke on the Gréeke and Hebrue fountaines marke what goeth before what commeth after and such like thinges and yet they are verye farre from the true vnderstanding of the scriptures I will my selfe practise it when I shall see good but there is no reason of yours that can enforce me to allow it simply Rainoldes The treatise of your Doctor against the Protestants opinion is like the army of Antiochus prepared against the Romans verie great and huge of men of many nations but white liuered souldiours neither so strong with armour as glistering with gold and siluer Antiochus him selfe was amazed at it and thought it vnuincible so did the simple fooles of his country too But the Romans contemned it and Annibal iested at it The name of Protestants which he vseth tauntingly as all one with Heretikes wée are no more ashamed of then were the Prophets and Apostles whom the Spirit of God hath honored with that title because they did make a protestation of their faith vpon the like occasion as did the faithfull in Germany when they were noted by that name The Protestants opinion I haue alreadie shewed to be the opinion of the auncient Protestants the Fathers the Apostles the holie Ghost who spake by them If you call it an errour we are content to erre with them If he thinke it an heresie we are no better then Paul who in such heresie serued God The ground which he layeth for the disproofe of it is such that it séemeth his wits and he had made a fray when he layed it He saith that the scripture ought to be expounded by the rule of faith and therfore not by scripture onely Which is in effect as if a man should say the church must be taught by liuing creatures endued with reason and therefore not by men onely For as a liuing creature endued with reason and a man is all one which euerie childe knoweth by the principles of logicke so the rule of faith and scripture is all one doth not your Doctor know it It is a principle of diuinitie deliuered by S. Austin whom he pretendeth chiefly in this point to follow Hart. And doth he not follow him Doth he not alleage S. Austins owne wordes In a doubtfull place of scripture let a man seeke the rule of faith which rule hee hath learned of plainer places of the scriptures and of the authoritie of the church to proue that the rule of faith must be fetched out of the authoritie of the church also not out of scriptures onely Rainoldes Yes he doth alleage S. Austins wordes in déed but as the false witnesses alleaged Christes wordes of destroying the temple and building it in three dayes the wordes against the meaning Which tricke the law noteth as an abusing of the lawe yet is it common with your Doctor For as Christ when he spake of raising the temple by the temple meant his bodie the witnesses did wrest it to the temple of Ierusalem so the authoritie of the church is mentioned by S. Austin as teaching scriptures onely your Doctor alleageth it as teaching somewhat beside the scriptures Hart. This is strange that S. Austin by the authoritie of the church meant no more then by the plainer places of the scriptures For so much you séeme to say in effect Rainoldes Be it strange yet is it true For him selfe declareth that to be his meaning not onely by the rest of his whole treatise wherein he doth establish the scriptures alone for the rule of faith to shew the sense of doubtfuller places by the plainer but also by the ende of this your owne sentence which Stapleton in alleaging it either negligently passed or craftily suppressed vnlesse the fault perhaps be in some other with whose eyes he read it For after these wordes let him seeke the rule of faith which rule he hath learned of plainer places of the scriptures and of the authoritie of the church it followeth in S. Austin Of which rule we haue sufficiently entreated in the first booke when we spake of thinges Now in that discourse to which he referreth vs he spake not of any thing as taught by the church but what is in the scripture Wherefore in these wordes by the authoritie of the church he meant not any thing beside the scripture If he did shew it If he did not acknowledge it Hart. He did For in the first booke where he spake of things hee shewed that the doctrine of the Trinitie is comprised in that rule of faith Which yet is not expresly set downe in the scriptures Rainoldes Expresly What meane you by this word expresly Hart. I meane that it is not expressed in the scriptures Rainoldes What Not the doctrine of the blessed Trinitie the Father the Sonne and the holie Ghost Hart. Not all that our faith doth hold of the Trinitie Rainoldes God forbid that we should hold of such a mysterie more then he teacheth by his word Hart. Certainly S. Austin writing to an Arian who denied that God the sonne is consubstantiall with the Father saith that as we reade not in the holie scriptures the Father vnbegotten yet it is defended that it must be said in lyke sort it may be that neither consubstantiall is founde written there and yet being said in the assertion of faith may bee defended And again disputing against Maximinus a Bishop of the Ariās Giue me testimonies saist thou where the holy Ghost is worshipped as though by those things which we do read we vnderstood not some thinges also which wee reade not But that I be not inforced to seeke many where hast thou read God the Father vnbegotten or vnborne And yet it is true Rainoldes And thinke you that S. Austin meant by these spéeches that the scriptures teach not that God the holy Ghost is to be worshipped God the Sonne is of one substance with the Father God the Father is
not begotten or borne Hart. Hée séemeth to haue meant it And Torrensis who gathered S. Austins Confession out of all his workes alleageth these places to proue that Christians ought to belieue manie things which haue come to vs from the Apostles themselues deliuered as it were by hand although they bee not written expresly in scriptures Rainoldes The Iesuit Torrensis dooth great wrong herein to the truth of God to S. Austins credit and to you who reade him And yet with such a sophisme in the word expresly that if it should be laid vnto his charge he would wash his handes of it as Pilate did of Christes blood For he alleageth those places of S. Austin thereby to proue Traditions as though we had receiued that doctrine touching God by tradition vnwritten not by the written word S. Austin no such matter But dealing with an Arian who required the verie word consubstantiall to be shewed in scripture doth tell him that the thing it selfe is there founde though not that word perhaps Wherevpon he presseth him in like sort with the word vnbegotten which the Arian hauing giuen to God the Father and defending it S. Austin replieth that as he had termed the Father vnbegotten well although the word not written so might the Sonne also be termed consubstantiall sith the scripture proueth the thing meant therby And as with this Arian so with their bishop Maximinus Who hauing himself termed God the Father vnbegotten or vnborne denied the holie Ghost to be equall to the Sonne because it is not written that he is worshipped To the which cauill of his S. Austin answereth that although it be not written in flat termes yet is it gathered by necessarie consequence of that which is written Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God the holy Ghost is God therefore to bee worshipped Thus S. Austins meaning was of these pointes that the scripture teacheth them Whereby you may perceiue the fraude of Torrensis Who saying that they are not expresly written in the scriptures left him selfe this refuge that hee might say they are not in expresse wordes though for sense and substance they are in the scriptures And yet by referring that title to traditions induceth his reader to thinke that they are taught by tradition not by scripture A doctrine which Arians will clappe their handes at that the Sonne of God is not by scripture of one substance with the Father But let it be far from you M. Hart to thinke so prophanely of the word of God And if you rest so much on Doctors of your owne side rest here on Thomas of Aquine rather who saith that concerning God wee must say nothing but that which is founde in the holie scripture either in words or in sense Which as he confirfirmeth by Denys and Damascen so was it the common iudgement of the Fathers of S. Austin chiefly as his bookes touching the Trinitie doo shew And in the conclusion thereof for euident proofe of that which you denied he giueth the name of the rule of faith to that which is plainly set downe in scripture of the Trinitie Wherfore the scripture cōpriseth the rule of faith for that point And as for that point so for all the rest which in that very booke whereof we spake S. Austin noteth It remaineth therfore that S. Austin meant not by the authoritie of the church more then he signified by plainer places of the scriptures Hart. Yes his own words in that verie sentence doo yéeld sufficient proofe me thinkes that he did For if he signified by plainer places of the scriptures as much as he meant by the authoritie of the church then was it idle when he had named the one to adde the other to it chiefly in such sort as that is added by S. Austin For both the coniunction the places of scriptures and the authoritie of the church should import thinges different and I may say of wordes as the Philosopher saith of things That is done in vaine by more that may be done by fewer Rainoldes Nothing is done in vaine that is done to edifie The church might well be mentioned as an interpreter of the worde though it teach not any thing beside the word of God The people of Israel did beleeue the Lord and his seruaunt Moses yet Moses did nothing but that the Lorde commaunded him The wise man doth charge his sonne to hearken to the instruction of his father and forsake not the doctrine of his mother yet they both the father and mother teach one lesson the chiefest wisedome the feare of God The same is fulfilled in this Moses and the Lord or rather in this mother and our heauenly Father of whom it hath bene said well He cannot haue God to be his Father who hath not the church to be his mother For God hauing purposed to make vs his children and heires of life eternall as he prepared his word to be first the séede the immortall seed of which we are begotten a new afterward the milke the sincere milke whereby wee béeing borne grow so he ordeined the church by her ministerie to teach it as it were a mother first to conceaue and bring foorth the children afterward to nourish them as babes new borne with her milke Which appeareth as by others so chiefly by S. Paul who traueiled of them in childbirth whom he sought to conuert and when they were new borne he nourished them with milke to set before our eyes the duetie of the church and all the churches Ministers in bearing children vnto Christ. Now the milke which the church giueth to her children shée giueth it out of her brestes and her two brestes are the two testaments of the holie scriptures by S. Austins iudgement the old Testament and the new S. Austin therefore saying the rule of faith is receiued of the authoritie of the church meant not that the church should deliuer any thing but onely what shee draweth out of the holie scriptures Hart. Not for milke perhaps which babes are to sucke but for strong meate wherewith men are nourished For mothers féede not their children being growne with mylke out of theyr brestes Rainoldes But S. Austin addeth that the holy scriptures haue both milke for babes and strong meat for men milke in plainer thinges and easier to be vnderstood strong meate in harder and greater mysteries Yea where Christ said that euerye Scribe which is taught vnto the kingdome of heauen is lyke vnto an housholder who bringeth foorth out of his treasure thinges both newe and olde S. Austin iudgeth that hée meant by newe thinges and olde the olde and newe testament Wherefore sith euery pastor and teacher of the church is meant you graunt by this Scribe it foloweth by S. Austin that the meate which he is to fetch out of his storehouse for the
sustenance of his houshold must be the Scripture onely Which the light of reason will induce you too if you beléeue the former pointes For the Philosopher teacheth that we are nourished by the same thinges of which we do consist Then if we are begotten of Gods worde as seede the word as it is milke to nourish vs when we are young so must it nourish vs when we are grown as strong meat But if it were so that S. Austin had not had this opinion touching strong meat yet must he néedes haue it in that whereof we reason for there he speaketh of milke And he sayth that the rule of faith is receiued of plainer places of the scriptures and of the authoritie of the church to note the churches practise which in catechizing of her young ones taught them summarily the pointes of beléefe and the precepts of life So that the simplest Christians who had not read them selues the plainer places of the scriptures to learne the rule of faith yet knewe it by the catechisme wherin through the ministery of the church they learned it Now S. Austins catechisme hath nothing but the doctrine which Christians may sucke out of plainer places of the scriptures His rule of faith therefore deliuered in the plainer places of the scriptures is the same that the authoritye of the church deliuered In déede your newe Doctors in their Popish catechismes haue precepts of the church beside the precepts of the scriptures your church which nameth her selfe though vntruely the mother of al churches hath more then two brests a third out of the which shee powreth poyson with her milke Whereby through good vsage hauing killed her owne children shee claimeth our churches children to be hers as did the woman before Salomon And the whore hath got her atturneies of her minions which do not onely raile at vs for not acknowledging her to be our mother but also belye vs that we scoffe at and curse the very title of Holy mother the church But they whom God hath blessed with the spirite of wisedome as he did Salomon will easily discern that we are so far off from scoffing at and cursing that we giue the name of mother to the church with reuerence and ioy Marry the church of Rome to be called our holy mother which neither is holy nor our mother that our soules detest and wish that her stepmotherhood may be farre from vs. As for the rule offaith to which she layeth claime by her aduocate your Doctor pleading the title out of Austin that wee as acknowledging her child to be our sister may take her for our mother if we folow Salomon and rippe vp the plea with such a sword as he did we shall find that the child is neither hers nor her husbandes but the holy scriptures For Austin in saying the rule of faith is learned of plainer places of the Scriptures and of the authoritie of the church named the Scriptures as the matter the church as the minister wherof the rule of faith is learned Your Doctor supposing as wel the carpenter as the timber to be the stuffe whereof the house must be builded doth laye his axe to both togither and squaring them alike doth make him beames and postes and iuises some of the timber some of the carpenter Euen so the holy scripture is not the whole matter of the rule of faith whereof the church ministers as workemen and builders should frame the house of God but in part the church in part the scripture is the matter Both which being molten as were the earerings of the Israelites wrought in fashion by your craftesman not yéelding vnto it of weakenes as did Aaron but séeking after it with greedines as the people who knewe not what was become of Moses they will make a rule of faith not of Christes but of the Popes faith And this if it be decked with deuises to the eie as that was with gold and set foorth by men whose tongues are their owne and voices sweete to sing the song These be thy Gods ô Israel which brought thee out of the land of Egipt it will moue manye to daunse for ioy about it in as holy sort as the golden calfe did moue the Israelites to doo Hart. It doth not become you to scorne in this sort so graue and learned men as M.D. Stapleton and others whom you touch much lesse the church of Rome and least of al the Popes Holines Whose predecessors gaue vs our first faith in the time of the Britannes and restored it afterward in the daies of the English And do you thus reward them for it You will make some men perhaps if you vse it to giue their iudgement of you with what spirite you do it Rainoldes If you will speake of him who gaue vs our faith you shall do well to lift vp your eies from dust and rottennesse and cast them somewhat higher Else although I will not condemne your spirite therefore yet I shall feare you doo not that honour to Gods Spirite which would beseeme a child of God for who is their father But to accept them as the giuers of it whose ministery God vsed in it first as it is doubted of the one side whether the Britannes had their first faith from Eleutherius it is more likely no so of the other side it is confessed that all the English had it not from Austin sent by Gregory Then if it were so we had it first from them yet we receiued it not from the Popes predecessors For as you take the name of Pope for supreme head and supreme head for that power which you haue defined there was no Pope at all when we receiued the faith The bratte was not yet borne when Gregory the first much lesse when Eleutherius was Bishop of Rome as our cōnference will shew Thirdly if they who were the predecessours of the Pope though not as Pope gaue vs our first faith the successors can not complaine they gaue it fréely they haue béene paid swéetely for it Your men to set them vp compare them to Balaam and the church to his asse In deede we must graunt our church hath béene the asse but your Balaam hath not refused to accept a house full of siluer and gold nay hee hath béene glad to sue for it too Last of all if they had giuen it vs fréely and plaid a kind mothers part neuerthelesse of mother transgressing as she hath done our father saith vnto vs Contend with your mother contend that she is not my wife neither am I her husband to the intent she may remoue her fornications out of her sight and her adulteries from betweene her breastes S. Paule was brought vp at the feete of Gamaliel Gamaliel a great Pharise Neither was he onely the scholer but the sonne of
and verie strongly proued Rainoldes This long and smooth tale which you haue tolde out of your Doctor is like to that nightingale to which a Lacedemonian when he had plucked her feathers off and sawe a litle caraine left said Thou art a voice nought else Plucke off the feathers of your tale the body is a poore carkase and hath no substance in it Howbeit the names of the two courtes the outward court the inward court with other tunes of like musike are very sweete melodie in the eares of them whose hartes are in the court of Rome As for simple men who haue béene onelye conuersant in the courtes of the Lord they sound to them like straunge languages and seeme to containe more profound mysteries then we can reach the depth off But to open your answere that it may be séene what is vnsound in it this is the point of the thing in controuersie I say that the power promised to Peter by the name of the keyes in the sixtéenth of Matthew was performed and giuen to all the Apostles by the commission of Christ in the twentieth of Iohn You with Stapleton deny it Why Because the keyes promised to Peter do signifie all kind of power wherof a part onely was giuen to the Apostles to bind and loose in either court And how proue you this Forsooth bicause by these wordes whatsoeuer thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heauen and whatsoeuer thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heauen Christ doth not expound what he meant by the keies as some men say you haue thoughtthat he doth Then some men haue thought that the power of the keyes and the power of binding and loosing are all one the later added by Christ to expound the former In deede I thought so and I perceaue by you that I thought not so alone some other men haue thought it too But you say it is not as some men haue thought Yet you do not tell vs the names of these some men Might we knowe I praye what these some men be Hart. What matter is it who they be sith wee are not of their minde Rainoldes Yes it is a matter For if I knew them it may be I would talke with them Hart. To confirme you in your errour But learned men do vary in expounding of Scriptures some hitte the marke some misse it And D. Stapleton reading many of all â—ortes might fall on some expounding it amisse as you do whom hée for modestie would not name where hee reprooueth their opinion Rainoldes This modestie I like not The truth is hee durst not name them least wee should know them and bee the more strengthned by them in the truth to the confounding of your errour For these some men whom hee so lightly trippeth ouer are but al the Fathers who haue with one consent expounded Christes promise of the keyes as we do Now the exposition which the Fathers make is by his owne iudgement the churches exposition which hath the right sense of the scripture And so while he is launching out into the deepe to fetch in a prise for Peter of Romes supremacie hee maketh shipwracke in the hauen Hart. How know you that the Fathers all haue so expounded it You haue not read them all haue you Rainoldes No truely Neither euer am likely to doo it But I haue read him that hath read them all I trow And hee being a man worthy with you of credit doth witnesse that I saye true Hart. Who is that Rainoldes Euen Father Robert the publike reader and professor of diuinitie in Rome Who when he discoursed of Christes wordes to Peter Whatsoeuer thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heauen and whatsoeuer thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heauen said that all power of the keyes is therein promised not restrained to part but enlarged to what soeuer Yea that Christ likewise promised the same power to all the Apostles when he spake in like wordes Whatsoeuer ye bind on earth shall be bound in heauen what soeuer ye loose on earth shall be loosed in heauen For albeit Origen more subtilly then literally doth put a difference betweene the promises because in the one the word heauen is vsed in the other heauens yet the common exposition of S. Ierom S. Hilarie S. Anselme and others vpon this place yea of S. Austin him selfe in his treatise vpon Iohn is that Christ speaketh of the power of the keyes by which the Apostles and their successours do bynd or loose sinners And although it seemeth that here is chiefely meant the power of iurisdiction whereby sinners are excommunicate yet the said Fathers doo vnderstand it of both the powers not onely of iurisdiction but of order too And that may be gathered it seemeth by the text For it is said as generally to the Apostles What things soeuer ye shal bind as it is to Peter What thing soeuer thou shalt bind Hart. Perhaps Father Robert doth bring in these thinges by way of an obiection and frameth thereunto an answere and so resolueth to the contrarie Rainoldes No. But he bringeth your opinion in deede by way of an obiection and frameth thereunto an answere and so resolueth to the contrary For thus he goeth forward What Is that giuen then to all the Apostles which was promised to Peter Caietan in his treatise of the Popes authority saith that the keyes of the kingdome of heauen and the power of byndyng and loosing are not all one for that to bynd and loose is lesse then to open and shut But this doctrine seemeth to be more subtill then true For it is a thing vnheard of that there are in the Church any other keyes then the keyes of order and of iurisdiction And the sense of those wordes I will giue thee the keyes and whatsoeuer thou shalt bind and loose is plaine that first a certaine power and authoritie is promised afterward the function of it is declared Now the function of these keyes is declared by the wordes to bind and loose not by the wordes to shut and open that we may vnderstand they be metaphoricall and borowed kindes of speeches neither heauen is opened properly but it is said that heauen is opened then with these keyes when men are loosed and dispatched of the difficulties and infirmities which shut them out of heauen and so forth Thus saith your chiefest reader and Iesuit Robert Bellarmin whose iudgement by your leaue I farre esteeme in this point aboue D. Stapletons as more agreeable to the scriptures Hart. You may estéeme it as you liâ—t But I am not bound to stand to Bellarmines iudgement Rainoldes But you are bound to stand to the iudgement of the Fathers by the Councell of Trent and that vpon your othe as I take it With the which othe I know not how D. Stapleton dispenseth Unlesse the Pope expound it that you must folow them so farre as
earthly not bodily but spirituall not temporall but eternall Their authoritie they receiued by the wordes of his commission But the discharge of the duetie required great treasures of the holie Ghost Whereof hée gaue them some then more in the fiery toonges from heauen more as the churches state required and these well occupied gained more with the increase whereof their abilitie still increased their authoritie not so which all was giuen them at once Hart. But a King for better triall of his Iustices may commit some lesser authoritie first vnto them and afterwarde greater Rainoldes So did Christ to his Apostles But hauing made triall of them in the lesser he called them by this commission to the greater nay to the greatest then which he had no greater for them Hart. Not within the limits perhaps of their commission yet he might enlarge them and giue them greater limits Rainoldes But Christ in this commission had giuen them authoritie through all his dominion not through a shire onely For he sent them to all nations Hart. And what if I grant that Christ in this commission gaue all that power to Peter which he had promised him was to giue vnto him Rainoldes If he gaue him all that power in this commission no part thereof remained to be giuen in any other If no part to be giuen then was there no further power giuen to him by those wordes of Christ Feede my lambes feede my sheepe If no further power were giuen him thereby the bulwarke of your Papacy is builded on a fansie Hart. Then belike our Sauiour spake to no purpose when he said to Peter Doost thou loue mee Feede my lambes Doost thou loue mee Feede my sheepe Rainoldes God forbid To great purpose though not to yours For he giueth him therein a commandement though not a commission As if the Quéenes Maiestie hauing made alreadie by letters of commission some Iustices in the North one perhaps amongst them of whose faithfull heart she were persuaded well yet that had shewed himselfe not of the trustiest in time of the rebellion shée should say vnto him to stirre in him a liuely regard of his duetie Do you loue vs Haue care of our poore subiectes Doo you loue vs Haue care of our good people Which charge and commaundement Christ might giue a great deale better to Peter then the Quéene to any Iustice in the North because shée knoweth not whither any new Bull be comming from Rome or new rebellion be toward But he knew that Peter should be in greater danger then he was when he fled and denied his Maister Whereof he forewarneth him straight vpon the giuing him of this commandement and that with earnest words of great asseueration as in a matter of weight telling him that he should dye a gréeuous death for his profession of the faith and féeding of the flocke of Christ. So that to arme him against that feare of the flesh which before had made him to betray his duetie when he had lesse cause to feare Christ hauing made the iron hot as it were by asking him Doost thou loue mee striketh it to make it a fit instrument to build with so commandeth Feede my flocke yea though the worke be painefull and will cost thée déere for it shall bring thée to thy death So he committeth not a new charge to Peter but willeth him to looke to that which he had committed and flée not from it for any danger As if a wise shipmaster séeing a daungerous storme at hand should command his mariners whom he had well deserued of that if they loue him they looke vnto their tackelings Hart. Well If it were perhaps not a commission but a commandement yet was it a commandement to discharge that duetie wherewith he was put in trust by commission Rainoldes I grant What inferre you Hart. Then Peter had commission to feede the lambes and sheepe of Christ. Rainoldes Who dooth deny it For he had the same commission from Christ that Christ from God his Father to preach the Gospell to the poore to heale the broken-hearted to preach deliuerance to the captiues and recouering of sight to the blind to set at libertie them that are bruised and preach the acceptable yeare of the Lord. Which is in other wordes to feede the lambes and sheepe of Christ. For Christ by a similitude is named the chiefe shepheard his church and chosen seruants a flocke of sheepe and lambes whereof he gaue a principall charge to his Apostles that they should féede it Wherefore the commandement giuen vnto Peter to feede his sheepe and lambes importeth the commission which before was giuen him when Christ sent him as God sent Christ. But in this commission the Apostles all were equall vnto Peter They were equall therefore to him in charge of feeding the sheepe and lambes of Christ. And so the second point which I had to proue the verie deaths-wound of your supremacy is proued Hart. Proued How proued Rainoldes As clearely as the Sunne dooth shine at noone day For to send the Apostles as God the Father sent Christ is to giue them charge to feede his sheepe and lambes But Christ sent the Apostles as God the Father sent him Therefore he gaue them charge to feede his sheepe lambes Now this is the greatest power that can be shewed was giuen Peter by Christ. Wherefore in the greatest power that Christ gaue him the rest of the Apostles all were his equals If you be loth herein to beleeue the Scripture yet beleeue the Pope and an ancient Pope vnlesse the Canon law lye The rest of the Apostles receiued honor and power in equall felowship with Peter Hart. It is true that the Apostles were equall to Peter but in respect of their Apostleship not of their Pastorall charge Rainoldes This answere of yours hath a distinction but not a difference It is the same fellow but in an other gowne whom a litle rather I shewed to be a bankrupt and now he commeth foorth againe in newe apparaile like an honest and welthy Citizen Hart Why say you so Rainoldes Because you did distinguish the Bishoply power of the Apostles from their power Apostolike as here with other wordes you doo their Apostleship from their Pastorall charge Whereas in déede the pastorall charge of the Apostles is nothing els but their Apostleship and hath no more difference then the other had For the name of Pastor is vsed in two senses a speciall and a generall In the speciall to note a kind of function distinct from the Apostles your Doctor graunteth it and so Apostles are not Pastors as when it is said some Apostles some Prophets some Euangelistes some Pastors and teachers In the general to signifie the cōmon charge of al such as do teach the word and féede the flocke of God in which respect Christ him selfe is called a Pastor Wherefore sith Apostles
God by inspiration and is the word of God Wherefore if you will take the golde of Vincentius you must grant that scripture alone is sufficient to trie the truth from errour and to mainteine the Catholike faith against heresie Hart. You doo not deale well in misreporting so the words of Vincentius For he setteth downe two meanes by the which we must fense our faith against the guiles of heretikes eschue their snares first by the authoritie saith he of the scripture then by the tradition of the catholike Church You leaue out altogither that which he saith of tradition and handle him in such sort as though he had spoken for the scripture onely Rainoldes It is not your purpose I hope to beguile mée by the colour of his wordes It may be that your selfe are beguiled in them For he by the traditiō of the catholike church meant the true and right exposition of the scripture made by faithfull pastors and teachers of the church as his owne words immediately shew And this I made mention of in that I said that scripture is sufficient alone against heretikes if it be taken in the right sense the catholike sense hee calleth it You séeme to imagine that he meant by the worde tradition vnwritten verities as they haue bin termed or as you terme them now traditions which the Trent-Councell dooth account as much of as of scriptures and coupleth them togither to make a sufficient perfit rule of truth as though that onely scriptures were insufficient for it Which errour was so far from the minde of Vincentius that he saith expresly that he dooth not adde the traditiō of the Church to the authoritie of the scriptures as though that the scriptures were not thēselues alone sufficient for all thinges yea more then sufficient but to shew that because heretikes doo wrest and misse-expound the scriptures therefore we must learne their right sense and meaning deliuered to the godly by the ministery of the Church In which consideration as S. Paule writeth that he did deliuer according to the scriptures the things which he taught and therevpon nameth his doctrine traditions as you would say things deliuered so Vincentius mentioneth both the Churches tradition to note the ministerie of the Church deliuering the sense of scriptures and the Churches traditions to signifie the rules of faith according whereunto the scriptures are expounded as I haue shewed by scriptures Wherefore the wordes that your Vincentius speaketh touching the tradition and traditions of the Church do ioine hands with that which I did deliuer of the truth in pointes of faith to be tried by the scripture only Hart. You may not cary so the wordes of Vincentius away in a cloude For though he may séeme to haue meant in generall by the tradition of the Church the expounding of scriptures according to the rule of their right and Catholike sense which the Pastors of the Church deliuer yet comming to particulars he frameth that rule not out of the scriptures but out of the opinions which the Church holdeth in matters of religion For he asketh him selfe when heretikes pretend scriptures what shall the Catholikes doo How shall they discerne the truth from falshood in the scriptures Whereto he maketh answere that they must take the scriptures in the sense of the Church and therein they must folow vniuersalitie antiquitie consent By the which thréefold meanes to trie the truth he instructeth vs that we must hold that which the church of our time doth hold through all the world vniuersally If a part of Christendome diuide and cut it selfe from the faith of the whole then are we bound to folow the whole and not the part If the whole in our time be stained with any error then must we haue respect to the former time and cleaue to antiquitie If all in antiquity agreed not about it then looke too consent as what a generalll Councell did decree therof or if no such decree be what all the Fathers thought or if not all what the most euen they who continued in the faith and felowship of the Catholike Church And whatsoeuer we find that not one or two but all with one consent haue held written taught plainely commonly continually let vs be assured that we must hold also that without all doubt Thus Vincentius sheweth how he would haue the truth to be tried by the church if the church be soūd by the vniuersalitie of our own time if that be corrupt by the antiquitie of the former time if that be at variance by the consent of all or most of the Fathers Wherfore if you will stand vnto his iudgement to which you giue countenance as though you liked it you must not call the tryall of truth in religion to the scriptures onely but to the consent of the Fathers rather Rainoldes I liked his iudgement in the generall point touching the sufficiencie and perfitnes of scriptures which I know you like not though you make greater semblaunce of liking him then I. If in the particulars I mislike somewhat let the blame be laid vpon the blame-worthy not me who stand to that which he hath spoken well but him who falleth from it For laying his foundation as it were on a rocke he buildeth vp his house beside it on the sand That scripture is sufficient alone against heretikes so that it be taken in the right sense expounded by the rules of the Catholike faith this hath hée well auouched as on the rocke of Gods word But that the rules of faith and sense of the scripture must be tried and iudged by the consent antiquitie and vniuersalitie of the Church this hath he added not so well as on the sand of mens opinions The difference of the pointes may be perceiued by S. Austin who ioining in the former of them with Vincentius doth leaue him in the later For Austin as he setteth the ground of religion in the right sense and Catholike meaning of the scripture so teacheth he that this must be knowne and tried by the scripture it selfe the infallible rule of truth not by the fickle minds of mē And to haue taught hereof as Austin doth it had agreed best with the foundation of Vincentius which maketh the rule of scriptures alone sufficient for all thinges But because the weaker and ruder sort of Christians haue not skill to know the right exposition of scripture from the wrong therefore he tempering him selfe to their infirmitie doth giue them outward sensible markes to know it by Wherein he dealeth with them as if a Philosopher hauing saide that a man is areasonable creature should because his scholers cannot discerne of reason whereof the shew is such in many brute beastes that some haue thought them reasonable describe him more plainely by outward markes and accidents as namely that he hath two feete and no
Achithophel a counsellor had such authority with his Prince that his counsell was regarded as an oracle of God and Gamaliel a Pharise had such authoritie with the Iewes that the hie priest and the whole assemblie did yéelde to his aduise and as it were obeyed him Wherefore the authoritie which Ierom saith that Peter had dooth not prooue a power much lesse a supremacie Hart. Yet oftentimes authoritie is taken for the same that power as when a thing is doon by the appointment and order of the magistrate wée are wâ—nt to say that it is doone by authoritie Rainoldes True because power is one of those qualities which procure authoritie the greater authoritie the better that the power is vsed And so I ioyned power and authoritie together when I spake of the keies that Christ did geue to Peter But although the words be taken for the same in a figuratiue kinde of speech by reason of the affinitie which is betweene the things yet as the things differ and the words are vsed for them as different properly it is cléere that authoritie may bée without power and an inferior in power may be superior in authoritie So Tully when he tolde the Senatours of Rome that they ought to geue autoritie to Cesar and the rest against Antonie he meant by autoritie lawfull power and right to deale against him as against an enemie But otherwhere intreating of foure things which should be in a Generall of an army skill vertue autoritie felicitie he meant not lawful power by autoritie but estimation that a Generall must bee honorably thought of by frends and foes The difference betwéene them hée shewed where he saide that Metellus a priuate man though chosen Consul for the yéere folowing forbadde certain playes when an officer had allowed them and that which hee could not yet obteine by power hee did obteine by autoritie Hart. The thinges doo differ I graunt But séeing that the name of autoritie is vsed as well for power sometimes as for estimation why should it be taken in S. Ieroms words rather for estimation as you wil haue it then for power as I Rainoldes Because the point which Ierom dooth therevpon inferre cannot agree to power but to estimation yea this word it selfe is expressed by him and sheweth that he meant it For he saith that Paul went vp to Ierusalem to conferre of the gospel with them that were esteemed by whome hee meaneth Peter and other Apostles euen them whom Paul nameth and noteth their estimation as himselfe expoundeth it Iames and Peter and Iohn who were esteemed to be pillars Wherefore albeit Ierom speake hardly of Paul that he had not had securitie of preaching the gospell vnlesse it had beene approued by these yet the authoritie which he giueth Peter he giueth other Apostles Iames and Iohn with him and therfore a preeminence in estimation not in power not in supremacie but in credit For if by authoritie he meant supreme power Iames and Iohn should haue it ouer the Apostles as well as Peter had But they you say were equall in power to the rest and inferior to Peter Then Ierom by authoritie which he gaue to Peter meant not the supremacie Hart. The primacie of Peter doth proue it more forcibly which is the next prerogatiue And that is giuen to him not only by S. Austin but also by S. Cyprian as I haue declared Rainoldes What néede you to alleage me S. Austin and S. Cyprian Did I denie his primacie Hart. Why Doo you not deny it Rainoldes If I doo let me be smitten not with the blunt weapon of the words of men for so I may iustly terme them in this comparison but with the sharpe two-edged sword of Gods word For it is writen in S. Matthewes gospell these are the names of the twelue Apostles the first is Simon called Peter Now if he were the first then he had the primacie For although the reason be not so plaine in English because we haue not a fit word deriued from our English first as primacie is deriued from the first in Latin yet they who know reason will neuer deny but that he that is first hath the firstâ—ship if I might speake so that is to say the primacie But this is such a primacie as a foreman of the Quest is wont to haue in Iuries not a primacie of power as ouer inferiours but a primacie of order as amongst equals Hart. The primacie of order is a colourable shew wherby you may auoid S. Matthew But Austin and Cyprian cannot be so auoided For their wordes are witnesses they meant a farther primacie and what should that be but a primacie of power Which because they learned as it is likely out of S. Matthew therof do I gather that S. Matthew meant a primacie of power and not of order onely Rainoldes And because S. Matthew as it is more likely meant not a primacie of power to one there where he sheweth that Christ gaue the same power to all the Apostles thereof doo I gather that he meant a primacie of order onely not of power But Austin and Cyprian meant a farther primacie you say Perhaps they did Therefore a primacie in power It doth not folow Nay it is manifest they meant it not of power For Austin doth build it vpon the ground of Cyprian and Cyprian doth teach that Christ gaue equall power to all the Apostles The truth is they meant a primacie in calling to wéet that the Lord did choose Peter first as Cyprian doth speake expressely And whether S. Matthew regarded this also in that he numbred Peter first I can not define But whether hée did or no it is no farther primacie then I graunted you by the foreman of the Quest who is called first as he is reckened fiâ—st and so both in order and calling hath a primacie which he hath not in power Hart. A primacie in calling Nay yet you had done better to haue cleaued still to the primacie of order For Peter in order was the first in déed and so I deny not but he might haue béene though he had bene equall in power to his brethren But he was not the first in calling For S. Ambrose saith Andrew first folowed our Sauiour before Peter and yet Andrew receiued not the primacie but Peter And S. Austins words the primacie of the Apostles is conspicuous and preeminent with excellent grace in Peter doo plainely import that he meant a primacie not in calling but preeminence Rainoldes You say that Peter had not a primacie in calling for S. Ambrose saith so What if I should answere Hee had a primacie in calling for S. Cyprian saith so Or to helpe S. Cyprian if he haue smaller credit with you for S. Gregory saith so Peter was called to the Apostleship first But there is no dissension betwéene them and Ambrose if
in the Gospell he who said he would not goe into the vineyarde repented afterward and went so you may yéeld to this on better aduise to which you say you will not yéeld Though if your opinion of Peters supremacie were graunted to be true it proueth not your title to the Popes supremacie the principall point in question which you claime thereby For let vs faine that Peter was head of the Apostles How followeth it thereof that the Bishop of Rome is head of all the Church of Christ Hart. It foloweth by the second part of my reason The Bishop of Rome succeedeth Peter in the same power ouer Bishops that he had ouer the Apostles For if Peters power ouer the Apostles did reach vnto the whole flock both of the shéepe and the lambes then must the same power of his successor ouer Bishops reach by like reason vnto the same flocke and so to all the Church of Christ. Rainoldes But how doo you proue that the Bishop of Rome succéedeth Peter in his power Hart. Because that the power committed to Peter was not to dye with Peter For this had not bene agréeable to the goodnes and wisedom of Christ vpō whom it lay to prouide for his church vntill the end of the world as Austin sheweth he did Thinke not saith hee to the Church thinke not thy selfe forsaken because thou seest not Peter because thou seest not Paule because thou seest not them by whom thou art begotten Of thine ofspring there is growne vnto thee a fatherhood in steed of thy fathers children are borne vnto thee Rainoldes The goodnes and wisedome of our Sauiour Christ prouided for his Church as S. Paule witnesseth by giuing Pastors and teachers Pastors and teachers not one to the whole but many to the seuerall partes of his Church For they whom Christ hath chosen to serue him in the ordinarie feeding of his flocke to instruct his people and guide them in the way of life vntill the end of the world are named in the scripture sometime Elders of their age sometime Bishops of their duetie And he hath taken order by his spirite and word that such should be appointed in euery Church through euery citie This was it that Austin regarded when he said the church is not forsaken although she see not the Apostles considering that in steed of the Apostles she hath Bishops For by the name of Fathers he meant the Apostles and by the name of children bishops In steed of thy fathers children are borne vnto thee Which how it may serue your purpose I see not Unlesse perhaps you meane that amongst those children the Bishop of Rome should be heire as eldest and Bishops of other cities should be handled al like younger brethren But Austin saith not so Hart. It is proued by Austin that our Sauiour Christ prouided for his church And this I graunt he did by giuing seueral Pastors vnto seuerall flockes but so that he committed the charge of them all to one supreme Pastor which is the Bishop of Rome Rainoldes Thus I heare you say But I had rather heare Thus saith the Lord. Hart. You shall heare it The Lord saith that there shal be one flocke and one shepheard or as we translate it one folde and one Pastor whereof I make this reason By the name of Pastor is noted an ordinarie gouernment and charge which hath relation to a flocke and therefore as long as the flocke continueth the Pastors office must continue the office of one Pastor as the flocke is one It continued in Peter when Christ made him supreme Pastor Now when Peter dyed it should continue in his successor And the successor of Peter is the Bishop of Rome The Bishop of Rome therefore is the supreme Pastor of the Church of Christ. Rainoldes I perceiue your Pope can make no shew of title to supreme-headship of the Church vnlesse he put Christ from the possession of it For Christ by one Pastor doth signifie himselfe as it may appeare by the drift of all his spéech wherein he maintaineth his office and autoritie against the slanders of the Phariseis I am saith he the good Pastor and know mine owne and am known of mine As the Father knoweth me so know I the Father and I lay downe my life for my sheepe Other sheepe I haue also which are not of this fold and them must I bring and they shall heare my voyce and there shal be one flocke one Pastor One Pastor who but he of whome the wordes afore and after are meant He who is the good Pastor who knoweth his sheepe who layeth downe his life for them who hath other sheepe beside the Iewes to wéete the Gentiles whom hee will bring to his folde and so of them both the Church shal be as one flocke obeying Christ as one Pastor This is the one Pastor that our Sauiour meant Which if you wil not beléeue on my word or rather on his word who spake it beléeue your own Bible expoūding it by conferēce of scripture with scripture of Iohn with Ezekiel In whom God doth promise that he wil make of Israel Iuda one people and set his seruant Dauid that is Christ the sonne of Dauid to be one Pastor vnto them all and hee shall feede them Thus in Gods law the wordes are meant of Christ. The Pope in his law wil haue him selfe meant by them You are angry with vs when we call him Antichrist Is not the name of Antichrist too gentle for him who claimeth that to himselfe which is proper to Christ Hart. The Pope will haue himselfe to be meant by them as the vicar of Christ and so they doo belong to him Though they belong also to Christ which we deny not For thus saith the Pope Of the Church which is one there is one bodie and one head not two heades as a monster namely Christ and Christes vicar Peter and Peters successor sith the Lord saith to Peter himselfe Feede my sheepe my sheepe saith he in generall not in particular these or these whereby hee is vnderstood to haue committed all to him Whether they bee therfore Grecians or others who say that they are not committed to Peter and to his successors they must needes confesse them selues not to bee of the sheepe of Christ Sith the Lord saith in Iohn that there is one folde and one Pastor Which wordes though they conclude the Pope to bée that one Pastor yet you must not take them as though the Pope meant them of himselfe alone but that they are verified first in Christ then in Peter lastly in himselfe And so there continueth one Pastor by succession euen as the Church continueth one Rainoldes Doo you know what you say when you say there continueth one Pastor by succession Peter after Christ the Pope after Peter I hope you doo it ignorantly and therefore may obteine mercy though
the chaire of Moses but in the chaire of Christ doo the Priests sit for they haue receiued his doctrine Which point vnlesse your former argument were naught will proue that Priestes cannot erre no more then Popes For they who sit in Christes chaire haue greater prerogatiue then they who sate in the chaire of Moses Priestes then Scribes and Pharises The Scribes and the Pharises were to be obeied in all things which they said The Priestes must bee therefore much more obeied in all things But if they should erre then ought they not to be obeied Therefore they cannot erre in any thing they say Acknowledge you the forme of your owne argument Doth not the conclusion folow as necessarily here as there And thinke you M. Hart that Priestes cannot erre Thinke you that your selfe are of this perfection that wée ought to obey both you and your companions in all thinges which you say Or if you thinke not so fondly of them so proudly of your selfe as I hope you do not then leaue Doctor Stapletons exposition which inferreth it which he patcheth vp with the wordes of Austin Chrysostome and Origen whereas not one of them meant it Yéelde rather if you be wedded to Doctors of your owne side vnto their authoritie then whom the Church of Rome hath none of greater knowledge and perfiter iudgement for right interpreting of the scriptures I meane Iohn Ferus Arias Montanus Of whom the one saith that Christ taught his disciples to obserue and doo whatsoeuer the Scribes and the Pharises commanded by the prescript of the law that is out of the chaire of Moses the other that he chargeth vs to obey euil prelates yet withall he addeth how farre we must obey them Do ye saith he all things which they shall say vnto you but he had told them first they sit vpon the chaire of Moses For Christ did not meane that they should obserue all the decrees of Pharises but so farre forth as they agreed with the law According whereunto when he had shewed before also that they taught contrarie to the law in some pointes after certaine things touched betweene he added Beware of the leauen of the Pharises In like sort he said to the Apostles and their successours Hee that heareth you heareth me and he that despiseth you despiseth me and it shall be easier for the land of Sodom in the day of iudgement then for them who shall not receiue you and heare your wordes But Matthew had set downe before that Christ chose twelue whom he called Apostles and charged them to preach the gospell Whereby it appeereth that the Apostles must be heard but so farre forth as they be Apostles that is as they doo Christes worke and preach and teach the thinges which Christ commanded But if they teach other thinges and contrarie to Christ then are they not Apostles now but seducers and therefore not to be heard O the great light of truth which forceth euen the aduersaries not onely to perceiue it but also to reueale it often So will it force you too if you haue so much grace as Ferus and Montanus had Hart. So much grace as to say that if the Apostles teach thinges contrarie to Christ they are no Apostles now but seducers Doo you allow that spéech of Ferus And might the Apostles be seducers Rainoldes Peter an Apostle might say vnto Christ when he heard him speake of suffering at Ierusalem Maister pitie thy selfe this shall not be vnto thee And Christ would not therefore haue called him Satan had he not thought him a seducer Hart. But Christ did giue them afterwarde the holy ghost in greater abundance from heauen when he sent them to preach vnto all the world Rainoldes But Christ had told them before that it should be easier for Sodom and Gomorrha then for the citie that shold not heare their wordes Yet Christ himselfe refused to heare the wordes of Peter Wherefore the exposition of Ferus is good that Christ meant those wordes which he had willed them to preach that is the gospell Beside that Ferus speaketh not onely of Apostles but also of their successours Now though the Apostles were priuileged afterwarde by the speciall graces of the holy ghost to teach the truth in all thinges yet Bishops who succeeded them haue not that priuilege You must renounce therfore that erroneous expositioÌ„ which knitteth an assured truth of faith and doctrine to the succession of the Apostles and bindeth vs in all thinges to obey them who succeede into the seate of the Apostles and saith that he who sitteth in the chaire of the Apostles doth speake not his owne thinges but the thinges of God For our Sauiour meant that the Scribes Pharises ought to be obeied in al things which they taught out of the law of God not that they câ—uld not erre in faith and doctrine because they did succeede Aaron Hart. I cannot conceiue but that he meant to cléere their doctrine from errour For his wordes of doing that which they say because they sit in the chaire of Moses are rather a warraÌ„t for them in all thinges which they teach then a restraint for others how farre they must obey them Rainoldes His wordes belong properly to the instruction of hearers that they despise not the doctrine of God for the fautes of teachers So are they both a warrant and a restraint by consequent A warrant for teachers to be obeied in all things which they shall say out of the law A restraint for hearers not to doo those thinges whiâ—h the teachers say if they shall teach against the law As letters of credence geuen by Princes vnto their embassadours doo warrant them for their commission restraine them if they goe beyond it Hart. But the commission here is generall for all thinges that concerne teachers For Christ expresly sâ—ith obserue ye and doo ye Now we obserue pointes of faith we doo precepts of maners Wherefore whatsoeuer the Scribes and Pharises taught either of faith or maners they were to be obeyed in it Rainoldes That were a pretie proofe for your traditions of both sortes if it had ground in the text But to obserue and doo are both referred by Christ to the same thinges as he sheweth by comprising them first in the one worde then in the other All thinges whatsoeuer they say you must obserue obserue ye and doo ye but after their workes doo not for they say and doo not So it séemeth that to fasten his lesson of obeying the commandements of God which the Scribes and Pharises taught out of Moses he doubleth as it were his stroke by saying both obserue ye and doo ye Wherein he might expresse and call to their remembrance that which he doth commend of Moses who doubleth oft the same wordes in vrging of the same doctrine To be short
was taken for the peace safetie both of the countrie the State least the Emperours being absent out of Italie abiding at Constantinople the Pope whose autoritie was growen to be great if he should mislike the State or be factious might entise both Rome and Italie to reuolt from them to their enimies as Iustinian was perswaded that Pope Siluerius sought to doo This order continued vntill the yeare sixe hundred eightie and sixe about the which time the Emperour released the Pope from that bond But afterwarde the Pope did binde himselfe againe vnto it For in the yeare seuen hundred seuentie and thrée Pope Adrian the first gaue to Charles the greate the right and autoritie of choosing the Pope and ordering the Sée of Rome and he gaue it with consent of a Councell of Bishops not of his owne fansie The decreee of which Councell did stand in strength and vertue aboue a hundred yeares vntill the time of the fiftie Popes For in the yeare eight hundred eightie and fiue Pope Adrian the third made a contrarie decree to wéete that in creating of Popes they should not waite for the consent of the Emperour but the voices of the clergie and people should bée frée Neither had any Emperour that prerogatiue after till the yeare nine hundred sixtie and thrée when it was restored againe vnto Otho Now in the meane time the monsters came in Formosus Boniface Stephen Romanus Theodore Iohn the ninth Christopher Sergius and finally that monster of monsters Iohn the twelfth Of whom there was not one appointed by the Emperour And yet to sée the spirite of a Popish zeale how it wilâ— besotte men Genebrard hauing writen that Sergius did imprison his predecessor Christopher and commanded the bodie of Formosus to be digged out of his graue and beheaded doth adde this note vpon it No maruell if these Popes were monstrous for they were not chosen after the maner of their ancestors but intruded by the Emperours Whereas your Chronicles shew that Sergius conspiring against his predecessour Christopher as Christopher had conspired against his predecessor Leo did force him to renounce the Popedome on one day himselfe the next day did stall himâ—elfe in it So that not asmuch as the presence of the Emperours embassadours was stayed for at his consecration which yet by order should haue béene to hinder violence and offenses muâ—h lesse was he intruded as Genebrard saith by the Emperour But when Iohn the twelfth had gotten the roome then the which there could not a wretcheder thing possesse it vnlesse the diuell himselfe should hold it in person the Emperour Otho being earnestly sued too by the Romans to set the Church in better order caused the Bishops of Italie with others and the Roman clergie to be assembled in a Councell Wherein after that they had deposed Iohn and chosen Leo the eigth all with one consent Pope Leo with the whole clergie and people of Rome did graunt vnto Otho and his successours for euer the power of choosing the Pope The cause which moued him to stablish this order was that no such monsters might sit in Peters seate as there had before For he considered that since the time that Adrian the third had taken away that power from the Emperours and left it to the people and clergie the foule and inordinate ambition of the Romans had filled the Church with beasts the citie with tumults and the elections with vilanie He saw that this outrage must be repressed some way He thought no bridle fitter then that the decrée of Adrian the first who gaue the right of choosing the Pope to the Emperour should be reuiued And so he proposed the matter to the Councell and the Councell agréed vpon it Wherefore the former halfe of the fifty monsters were not intruded by the Emperours If the later were whose was the faute the Emperours or the Popes and Councels who gaue the Emperour that right But in déed they were not For although the Romans had sworne to Otho that they would neuer choose Pope without his consent and his sonnes yet by and by they turned to their olde bent like a deceitfull bow Howbeit in his dayes they could not haue their purpose For when they cast out Leo and brought in Iohn againe and chose one after him too Otho by force of armes made them repent it and redressed it But in his sonnes dayes they went thorough with it His nephew had a stroak in the choise of one or two but they were of the better sorte It was the Romans choise that thrust the monsters in Of whom we may estéeme what the rest were by their head and taile Boniface and Benedict Boniface the seuenth who came in by briberie was cast out by violence went away with sacrilege made money of his Church-robberies and therewith got againe the Popedome Benedict the ninth who when he was throwne out for his vnworthinesse and Siuester placed in his stéede he by helpe of the faction which had made him Pope threw Siluester out againe and fearing that mens stomakes would not brooke him long they did so loth him and abhorre him hee set the Popedome to sale and Gregorie the sixth bought it These dealinges of Gregorie Siluester and Benedict thrée most vgly monsters as they are called by Platina stirred vp the Emperour Henrie the second to looke vnto the Church as Otho had done Whereupon when he was come into Italie Pope Gregorie went vnto him and offered him a pretious diademe to winne his fauour But he neuertheles assembled togither a Councell of Bishops who hauing examined the cause of Pope Gregorie found that mony made him Pope iudged him vnlawfully made so he was depriued for Simonie Then in consultation about a new Pope when the Romanes themselues did not name any the Emperour named a German Suidiger a Bishop commended for his skil vertue who being approued by them all was chosen Pope called Clemens By whom by an other Councell held at Rome the same power was giuen to Henrie againe for ordering of the Popedome that was before to Otho So neither did the Emperors intrude the later monsters of the fiftie Popes no more then the former For there is but one of the fiftie after Clemens and he none of the monsters though Genebrard make him one because the Emperour chose him nor had the Romanes néeded to haue béene troubled with him but that Clemens the German tooke some Italian drugs amongst them Nay the Emperours were so farre from intruding of monsters that they did extrude them and were the chiefest meanes to ridde the Church of them Which as it is euident by the whole course of their liues and stories so Carolus Sigonius in his storie of Italie no partiall man against the Popes doth beare
Bishops all such as say and doo not and that S. Austin giueth that sense of the text But the Diuines of Rhemes haue set downe S. Austins name and wordes so as if he had thought that to be Scribes and Pharises had béene a peculiar grace vnto the Popes And vnder colour of his authoritie and iudgement they force the scriptures also to it saying that the chaire of Moses in the olde law was that the Sée of Rome is now The See of Rome is answerable to the chaire of Moses Which sentence is so grosse that vnlesse they had hoped to finde swine in England whom any doung would please that sauoured of the Pope they would not haue durst to lay it on the scriptures no not though their heartes had béene as fat as brawne and their faces as hard as adamant Hart. What meane you to sclaunder a college of so learned Diuines in such sort Doth not S. Austin mention the See and Bishops of Rome in all the places which they cite both in the epistles and against Petilian Rainoldes Not in all in some he doth But doth he mention him in any of them so as though the chaire of Moses were proper vnto him and he alone should sit in it Hart. Perhaps not expressely yet he doth impliedly and by a consequent For els why made he speciall mention of him more then of others Rainoldes Because he had occasion to speake of him specially through the obiections of his aduersaries Yet he maketh mention of other Sees and Bishops too as of Ierusalem But the scripture witnesseth that all men are lyers If I should hence auouch that the Pope is a lyer would you say that I auouch the Pope alone to to be a lyer and not the Turke also Hart. The Pope may lye by nature but God by grace can free him from it Rainoldes The question is what God doth not what hee can doo Hart. But as he can so he doth by priuilege of the Sée of Rome Rainoldes As true as Austin saith it Such a proofe such a priuilege Hart. S. Austin may haue said it if not in the former places yet in the other For certes D. Genebrard to proue that the Pope may be an heretike in person but cannot erre iudicially doth bring forth a reason from the chaire that is the Sée and quoteth him for it For the force saith he of the chaire is such that it constraineth them to speake good thinges and true who doo not good nor thinke true neither doth it suffer them to teach their owne thinges but the things of God Augustin lib. 4. de dectr Christ cap. 27. epist. 166. Rainoldes Of the two places whence he gathereth this the former agreeth fully with the later the later is the same that your Diuines of Rhemes abuse as I haue shewed In both S. Austin speaketh of wicked Bishops generally not specially of the Pope In both he meaneth the office of teaching by the chaire the office committed not to one Bishop but to all If Genebrard doo take the chaire in this sense how proueth it your priuilege If he meane the Sée of Rome by the chaire then is there a conspiracie of Prophets among you as there was among the Iewes and Genebrard is one of them Hart. It is not likely that S. Austin vsed the name of the chaire for the office of teaching which is common to all Bishops as well to hirelinges as to pastors For he saith that the chaire constraineth them to speake good thinges and true the chaire constraineth them How are they constrained but by a speciall grace for the benefite of the Church And in what Bishops may this grace be shewed but in the Popes onely Rainoldes S. Austin as he noteth that grace in the Popes so doth he shew it in all other Catholike Bishops of his time whose doctrine the Donatists against whom he writeth did not reproue but their maners He calleth the chaire in which they all sit the chaire of wholsome doctrine and saith they are constrained to speake good thinges in it He openeth the cause why they are constrained to wéete that although they seeke their owne thinges yet they are afraid and dare not teach their owne thinges out of the pulpit of that Church in which sound doctrine is established So that the speciall grace whereby they are constrained to speake good thinges and true is an vngratious grace whereby they are induced to séeke their wealth or honour For they preach Christ for earâ—hly commodities of mony or dignities and the prayse of man The loue of which thinges is so mightie with them that it doth moue them effectually and forcibly to preach in such sorte as is fit to get or keepe the thinges which they loue And hereupon S. Austin saith they are constrained and inforced to it as Paul said to Peter that he constrained the Gentiles to doo like the Iewes because by his example hee moued them effectually as Laelius told his friendes that they constrained him to graunt them a thing which they by earnest suite intreated For that he vsed the worde constraine in that sense himselfe hath declared other-where by saying that shepeheardes he meaneth hirelinges will they nill they will say the wordes of God that they may come to milke and wooll The spéech may séeme harsh that shepeheardes will they nill they will say the wordes of God but hee speaketh so to note that the loue of milke and of wolle that is of commodities constraineth them to féede the sheepe with Gods worde whether they like of it or no. Now because the doing herof is in and by their office of teaching which the chaire betokened as the chaire of Moses therefore he saith that Moses chaire did constraine the Scribes and Pharises to say good thinges and that amongst Christians hirelinges are constrained to say them in the chaire too As if I should say when in the Church of England a Papist preacheth against Poperie a worldling against worldlinesse an hypocrite against hypocrisie which some times they doo the pulpit constraineth them to preach so You should mistake me if you should imagin that I meane our pulpit hath a speciall grace to kéepe all preachers still from errour Euen so doo they S. Austin who dreame of such a chaire in his wordes Howbeit if you thinke that a chaire with him is of greater force then a pulpit with vs yet you can not thinke but that his wordes spoken of the Scribes and Pharises are meant of all Bishops who say and doo not For so he expoundeth the Scribes and Pharises often euen in the same booke which your Rhemists alleage Wherefore if the Pope by vertue of the chaire cannot erre as Pope then an other Bishop cannot erre as Bishop by vertue of the same chaire But any other Bishop you graunt may erre as Bishop Therefore you must graunt the Pope may erre as Pope
should now be subiect to him who raigned in the imperiall citie as it had béene afore time to the Emperour In this consideration he moued warre against Stephen the successour of Zacharie Pope Stephen remembring his predecessors benefite bestowed on king Pipine went to him into France and putting him in minde of Zacharies good turne prayed him to vndertake the quarell of S. Peter and of the common wealth of Rome against the Lombards Yea in an assemblie of the Nobles of France whom Pipine called together to know what they would say thereto the Pope did not onâ—ly exhort them to warre that they might recouer Rauenna and the Emperours land from the Lombards but also was importuâ—â—te with them that they should not restore it to the Emperour For he said the Emperour was vnworthie of it because hee had forsaken the defense of Italie and was an enimie to the Church But if that king Pipine would either doo the dutie of a thankfull man or prouide for his soule health or rewarde the Popes labour he should bestow Rauenna and the dominion of it with the rest of that dition by way of gift vpon S. Peter This sermon as soone as Pope Stephen had made the French men agréed to warre against the Lombards Pipine protested that if he conquered them he would for obteining the forgiuenesse of his sinnes giue Rauenna with the dominion and dition ioyning to it vnto S. Peter his successouâ—s According to which vow when he was come into Italy and the Emperour sent him Embassadours with presents desiring him if he recouered that dition and dominion to graunt it vnto him and not vnto the Pope he answered that being moued thereunto not with humane rewardes but with desire of meriting the fauour of God he had receyued the church of Rome into protection because he was perswaded that it would be auailable to the saluation of his soule and the forgiuenes of his sinnes and sith hee had sworne that he would graunt giue it vnto S. Peter and his successours therefore he must performe it Which as he saide so he did Neither did he geue it vnto them more willingly then his sonne Charles the great confirmed the gift and added more to it when he had made a full conquest of the Lombards brought into subiection the kingdom of Italy Howbeit though the Popes were now become mightie with spoyles of the Emperour and had cast off his yoke from them yet were they still subiect to Charles the great king of Italie and France whom afterwarde they called the Emperour of the Romanes as the other the Greeke Emperour For though Charles gaue the countries to the Pope yet hee reserued the right soueraintie and roialtie thereof to him selfe And when his race decaying Otho the great had gotten the Italian kingdome Rome and the rest of the Popes dominions regarded the Pope as Prince of the common wealth but the king or Emperour as their soueraine Lord and did yéeld tributes and seruices to him So that the Pope was but a vasall to the Emperour and held of him in fée The chiefest meanes whereby they cast of this yoke also was excommunication not Christian but Papall excommunication such as they had practized against the Gréeke Emperour Pope Gregorie the seuenth was the beast that did it The occasion was the giuing of Bishoprickes and church-liuings which the Popes themselues had graunted to the Emperours Charles and Otho yea the giuing of the Bishopricke of Rome and choosing Popes But when they had gotten of them that they sought and were growne lustie and fatt by their meanes they saw that the giuing of Bishoprickes and church-liuings did abate that power to which they aspired Wherefore vnder colour that the Emperours gaue them not fréely but for mony they taught that lay men ought not to giue them at all and cursed both the giuers and receiuers of them Hereupon there arose great strife betwéene the Pope and the Emperour Henrie the third in the flames whereof Pope Gregorie the seuenth did by the right of S. Peters authoritie depriue him of his whole Empire discharge his subiects of their oth and forbidde them to obey him The Princes of Germanie not knowing the boundes either of S. Peters authoritie or of the Popes thought them selues bound to disobey their Emperour and so rebelled against him Pitifull and lamentable were the griefes and contumelies which the poore Emperour was faine to endure betweene the Pope and Papistes while sundrie waies he sought to retaine his state But in fine Rodulph a Duke one of his subiectes was chosen Emperour against him The Pope to strengthen Rodulph sent him a kingly crowne and pricking him forward to defend valiantly the Church against Henrie did graunt in the name of Peter and Paule a pardon and forgiuenes of all sinnes both in this life and in the life to come to all that were obedient and faithfull vnto him When that would not sâ—rue for the newe Emperour was staine by Henrie in the field his owne naturall children were raised against their father first Conrade the eldest then Henrie the next Which Henrie spoiled him at last of the Empire and brought him to such miserie that he was faine to begge meat and drinke of the Bishop of Spier in a Church which him selfe had built promising to earne it by doing there a clerkes duetie for hee could serue the quire And not obteining that he pined away and died for sorow This dreadfull example of Henrie the third aduaunced much the credit of the Popes authoritie The more because that when Vecilo the chiefest Bishop of the Germanes had denyed in the time of those sturres and troubles that the Emperour might be depriued of his crowne and kingdom by the Pope there was a Councel gathered in which the Popes legate being present at it Vecilo was condemned of heresie for that opinion For when the doctrine also was receiued besids the practise that the Pope might lawfully depose kings and Emperours it made the tallest cedars of Libanus to shake and to feare the bramble least fyre should come out from him and consume them Which appeered in Henrie the fourth the next Emperour Who though he began to tread his fathers steppes and tooke Pope Paschal prisoner whereby they grewe to composition confirmed by the Popes othe that Bishops and Abbats chosen by free voices should be inuested with ring and stafâ—e by the Emperour without Simonie and being so inuested might lawfully receiue consecration of their archbishop but he who were chosen by the clergie and people and not inuested by the Emperour should be consecrated of no man yet when he was set at libertie againe and breaking his couenants 〈…〉 with open periurie condemned both the graunt which he had made to the Emperour and the Emperour himselfe and that with the consent of many Bishops of sundrie prouâ—â—â—es
wiser and discréeter legates writing by them vnto him that there was no cause why hee should be offended with his former letters For though other men saith he take the word benefit in an other sense yet you should haue taken it in that in which we tooke it and which it seemeth to haue by the first originall For it is compounded of two wordes good and fact and it signifieth not a thing that is giuen in â—ee but a good fact As it is vsed throughout the whole course of the holy scripture wherein we are saide to bee guided and nourished by the benefit of God not as though wee had these thinges of him in fee but as of his blessing and a good fact of his Now we as you know did set vpon your head the crowne of the Empire so well and so honourably that all men may iudge it was a goodfact And so were the other wordes mistaken also we bestowed on you the crowne of the Empire For by this worde bestowed we meant nothing els but we set it vpon you The Emperour had required the picture to be razed out the writing to be called backe But hée must be content and so he was with this Papall mitigation of the writing made somewhat â—mother by the Legates The picture was too good an euidence to be defaced And for all this smoothing of the writing too Pope Breake-speare ceased not to quarell with him still and to encroch vpon him The Emperour exacted hiâ— tribute to be taken vp in the Popes dominion the Pope sent him worde that he should not exact it but at his coronation onely The Emperour required Bishops to doo him homage and to be sworne to him the Pope wrote sharpe letters and reproued him for it The Emperour being offended with the Popes letters wrote somewhat sharply backe and set his name before the Popes and spake to him in the singular number the Pope againe wrote to him that he marueiled why he gaue not due reuerence to S. Peter and to the holy Church of Rome The Pope required him not to binde the Bishops of Italie to doo him homage the Emperour saide he was content not to seeke their homage if they would be content not to hold his lordships The Pope would not haue him send messengers to Rome vnlesse he made him priuie to it sith all in that citie were S. Peters magistrates with the whole royaltie the Emperour said that that point did neede more consultation for so the Roman Emperour should haue the bare name of a ruler onely if the Citie of Rome whence he is named the Roman Emperour were not subiect to him Upon these dealinges and answeres too and fro the matter was debated betwéene the Popes legates foure Cardinalls and the Emperour to bring them to agréement The Emperour professed that hee would both giue and receiue iudgement The Popes legates answered that it was meete he should receyue it onely sith the Pope is not subiect to any mans iudgement Whereto when the Emperour saide that he would stand to the arbitriment of sixe Cardinalls and sixe Bishops or Princes the legates were content to write thereof vnto the Pope They wrote and the Pope refused the condition To be short they agréeed not while Pope Breake-speare liued But the lustie Cardinall Rowland who succéeded him and being Pope was named Alexander the third did so rowse vp Fridericke with their olde policy of excommunications Papall and rebellions that after great daungers of his state and life he was enforced to yeelde at length and aske him pardon Which being graunted on conditions he came to Pope Rowland in the citie of Venice and kissed there his feete and gaue him the vpper hand and held his stirrup while he was mâ—unting on his palfâ—ie So by treading downe the Emperour Fridericke the Popedome was aduanced to be the highest state in earth and Peters chaire got Caesars right If Henry the fifth the sonne of Fridericke sought to stay it by seazing on S. Peters lands giuing them to thrée Dukes to be held of him in fée he sought to stay a water-course which the more you stoppe it the fiercer it doth breake out For Philip his brother the greatest of the thrée was excommunicated straight and Pope Innocentius the third watching his time drew the two swordes out against them all discharged their subiectes of their allegiance and oth and set both his clergie and laitie vpon them neither left them til he hâ—d vanquiâ—ht them what with curses what with warres and that which Pope Rowland had well begoon he nobly finished Thus haue I touched briefly the storie of the temporall state and kingdom of the Popes how â—hâ—y climeâ— vp to the soueraintie of it The truth of which storie is cléere by the monuments of historians worthie credit Paulus Diaconus Otho Radeuicus Aimoâ—nus Rhegino Sigibertus and others who liued at the same times wherein the seuerall thinges were done Yea they in sundrie pointes and circumstances of importance haue opened partly more partly the same more forcibly then as I haue touched it But lest you should suspect that some of them perhaps speake somewhat of affection against the Popes or for the Emperours I haue contented my selfe to touch no more nor with more aduantage then Sigonius in his storie of the kingdome of Italie presented to the Popes sonne and writen for the Popes glory as it became the Popes reader hath set downe out of them and other monuments as most true Whereby it is verie apparant and euident thâ—â— vnder pretense of the Churches state of the Church-discipline in excommunication of the Church-doctrine in meritorious workes of the Church autoritie in forgiuing sinnes in teaching men their dueties in dispensing with othes and lastly of the Church-solemnities in setting crownes on Emperours heads the Pope hath gathered iewels to decke the triple crowne of his worldly kingdome and hath made himselfe not onely a Prince but also a Prince of Princes of the earth It was almost twelue hundred yeares after Christ when he obtained this soueraintie Sith the which time he hath more notoriously built vp his Babylon with the stones of Sion The common wealth is witnesse hereof in the calamitâ—â—s of her ciuill gouernours Whom by the deuises of the same treacheries he hath depriued of kingdomes goodes libertie and life when they haue stoode in his light as the realmes of England of France of Germanie of Boheme of Nauarre the states of Florence Vrbine Venice in Italie haue tried to their smart But the Church hath tried it with greater smart in her spiritual pastors For as Samuell when the Israelites would haue a king to rule them as other nations had tolde them that the king who should raigne ouer them would play the king with them
he knew and furnished with the treasures of the Popes librarie to know the best that might be saide yet after many floorishes for Constantines donation of the largest sise he addeth in conclusion that the Pope Gregorie the third did excommunicate Leo the Emperour and caused Rome and Italie to rebell against him absoluing all his subiectes from their oth of fealtie And so he confuteth the lye which himselfe and Genebrard doo build on that Rome after Constantine was not the Emperours but the Popes and graunteth by consequent that the Popes temporall dominion in Italie was vnlawfully gotten and wrongfully vsurped by this deuise of treason Hart. Nay Genebrard hath other reasons to defend the right of the Pope if these doo not content men For I saith he answere to heretikes impugning the donation of Constantine that which Iephte did in the eleuenth of Iudges to the king of Ammonites requiring the land of Galaad to bee restored him we will possesse that which the Lord our God hath conquered and obteined Vnlesse perhaps thou canst shew that any man did striue about it for the space of three hundred yeares here for a thousand yeares and more Why so long time haue you attempted nothing for the recouerie of it Chiefly sith the prescription of certaine yeares sufficeth in groundes and possessions Moreouer the consent of Italie and of the Church and of the whole world is of force enough to giue the Pope that right Finally that Constantine remoued the seat of the earthly Empire to Constantinople through Gods speciall prouidence to the end that the kingdome of the Church forespoken of by Daniel the Prophet might haue his seate at Rome it appeareth by this that straight the westerne Emperours Constans and the rest who folowed for certaine ages left Rome still and placed the seate of the westerne Empire at Milan or Rauenna and also that Constantius the nephiew of Heraclius Michael and certaine others would haue brought it in againe to Rome but could not Wherefore howsoeuer the Popes dominion temporall began or whensoeuer it is sure that he hath right vnto it now Rainoldes The point that we reason of is not M. Hart what right he hath now but what wrong heretofore hee hath doone the Emperour to obteine this right Though neither can you proue his right by these reasons For that which Iephte spake of gotten by the Israelites they got by lawfull warre The Pope hath gotten his by vnlawfull treacherie And prescription holdeth not in thinges that are stollen and detained by force if you beleeue the law As for the thousand yeares and more which Genebrard addeth that no man stroue about it if he meane about Constantines donation no maruell if they stroue not about that which was not If he meane about that which Popes claime thereby it hath two vntruthes one that they haue helde it a thousand yeares and more an other that no man stroue with them about it For to passe ouer the Emperours before touched and namely Friderike the first the Romans them selues had many bickerings with them for the temporall rule and gouernment of the citie contending that the Pope should medle with the spirituall onely Whereby withall appeareth how vaine the bragge is of the consent of Italie the church and the whole world Though neither their consent can giue the Pope that right vnlesse the Roman Emperours the right owners of it do consent also And how they consent you may learne by late Emperours of whom one desired to recouer Rome and all the Popes dominion as being his of right an other did more then desire i◠or rather by late Popes who are afraide of nothing more then of the Emperours comming into Italie Now the last reason of Gods speciall prouidence remouing the seate of the westerne Empire to Constantinople to the end that the kingdom of the church forespoken of by Daniel the Prophet might haue his seate at Rome beside that it is seasoned after Genebrards maner with vntruth of storie as that the western Emperours who succeeded Constantine for certaine ages left Rome still which is disproued by Honorius it wresteth Gods worde to the maintenance of mans pride For the Churches kingdome which Daniel forespake of is the kingdome of the Iewes touching the temporall state touching the spirituall the kingdome of the Saintes that doth endure for euer And if we presume vpon the secret workes of the prouidence of God to gather what the fansie of man doth imagin not what the wisedom of God hath reuealed the Turkish impietie may bee as well proued as the Papall kingdom because as the seate of the westerne Empire is fallen to the Pope so Constantinople the seat of the Easterne is fallen to the Turke But whatsoeuer right these reasons may afforde to the Pope now they acquite him not from hauing doon wrong to the Emperours heretofore in that he got his temporall dominion from them by treason and rebellion And this is the first point wherein you went about to cléere his supremacie The next is his tyrannie in spirituall things Wherein your defense of him is so tempered that although you cannot choose but acknowledge his faute in those excesses which I laide open yet doo you smooth them as abuses onely of lawfull autoritie and not vnlawfull actes of vsurped power For you say that if any of the Bishops of Rome abused their wealth to any euill purpose or els their autoritie in any of the pointes mentioned by me you are so farre off from iustifying them therein that rather you rew to see it and you condemne them therefore A short and sclender answere to all their crimes that I touched Howbeit if you speake vnfainedly M. Hart as I pray God you doo I am glad that you seeke not to iustifie the Popes in any of the pointes that I charged them with but rew and condemne their abuses therein For I laide to their charge that they haue oppressed both the ciuil state and the ecclesiasticall the ciuil in taking vpon them to giue Empires to depose Princes to discharge subiectes of their allegiance and oth the ecclesiasticall in making of Church-officers ordering of Church-causes disposing of Church-goodes executing of Church-censures and establishing of Church-lawes to serue their owne desires and lustes In all the which pointes if you condemne their doinges as abuses of their autoritie you condemne the practise of their whole supremacie as nothing els in grosse but an heape of abuses Hart. Not of their whole supremacie For though some of them abused their autoritie in sundrie pointes which you mentioned yet others haue not doon so As we had experience in Quéene Maries dayes wherein there were not so many Church-liuings bestowed in England vpon Italian Pastors as you spake of vnder Gregorie the ninth or Innocentius the fourth But howsoeuer they dealt with practise of their power which they abused I graunt the power
Whereupon as the scripture speaketh of S. Paul that he sate at Corinth a yeare sixe monethes teaching the word of of God amongst them meaning that he continued there and preached to them in like sort the Fathers â—o signifie that Peter abode and taught in Rome are accustomed to say that he sate at Rome So doth Austin mention the succession of Bishops from the seat of Peter So doth Ierom honor the Bishop of that See with the nâ—me of Peters chaire But what is this to the supremacie For it is spoken by the Fathers also that Peter did sit and hâ—d hâ—s châ—ire at Antioche yea at Antioche as some say he had in deede a high chaire wherin he was exalted And of his chaire at Antioche you haue an olde holy day of his chaire at Rome a new one trimmed of late Wherefore if the high chaire of Peter at Antioche with an olde feaste could not make the Bishop of Antioche supreme head how can the Bishop of Rome be made supreme head by Peters chaire perhaps a lower chaire at Rome with a newe feast If the new feast be that which maketh vp the matter the Pope was no foole in making that feast He may doo well to make mâ—e Hart. You make your selfe sport with our feastes of S. Peters chaire as though I had said that because the Fathers doo name the Sée of Rome the seat and chaire of Peter therefore the Bishop of Rome must haue the supremacie Whereas I alleaged them to shew that the Bishops and the succession of Bishops in that See is the rocke on which S. Ièrom saith he knoweth the Church to be built against which S. Austin saith that the proud gates of hell preuaile not Rainoldes But you doo conclude the Popes supremacie hereof or els you stray from the question Hart. Why may I not conclude it Rainoldes If you list but the feast of S. Peters chaire would proue it more galantly For if the testimonies which you alleage of Ierom and Austin be examined they say nothing for it S. Ierom abiding in his young yeares among the Arian heretikes in the coastes of Syria was required by their Bishop to allow and approue a profession of faith touching the Trinitie wherein he suspected there lay some priuy poyson hidden Wherefore least he should yéelde thereunto rashly he sought to be directed by the aduise and counsell of Damasus Bishop of Rome as whom both hee acknowledged to bee his owne Biâ—hop and knew to be a Bishop that helde the catholike faith which praise by that title of the rocke he giueth him In Afrike they were troubled with other heretikes named Donatistes a sect which despised the communion of Saintes and rent them selues a sunder from the assemblies of Christians because there were some euil men amongst them as they said whose felowship defiled them S. Austin wrote a Psalme for the Catholiks against these wherein hauing proued first out of the scriptures that we must not leaue the communion of the Church for that there are some euill men in it sith Christ hath declared that there should be so as tares with corne in the field as chaffe with wheate in the floore as badde with good in the nett he confirmeth this doctrine by the consent iudgement of the Church of Rome whose Bishops euen from Peter had imbraced it still and constantly maintained it the gates of hel in vaine assaulting them So the wordes of Austin and Ierom doo import a sinceritie of faith in the Church of Rome the Roman Bishops against the Arians and Donatistes but neither of their wordes import the supremacie which is a soueraintie of power Hart. If they had not meant as well a soueraintie of power as sinceritie of faith why should they mention that Church and not others Were there no Bishops sincere through al the world but the Bishops of Rome onely Rainoldes Yes a great many and they mention them too For Ierom though he asketh the aduise of Damasus a young man of an old a Roman of the Bishop of Rome whose religion was sound whose authoritie was great and the greater with Ierom because he knew him well as hauing lerned him selfe the faith of Christ in Rome where he was baptized yet doth he name S. Ambrose the Bishop then of Milan as sound in faith also and the Bishops of Aegypt yea of the west in generall Now in the west saith he the sunne of righteousnes ariseth and the inheritance of the Fathers is kept vncorrupted amongst you alone In like sort doth Austin note against the Donatistes whose canker had fretted but a péece of Afrike that Bishops of the coastes and countries beyond sea and Churches through the whole world were pure from their heresie Howbeit as Ierom preferred the aduise of Damasus before others to confirme himselfe so did Austin choose the Church of Rome aboue the rest to confirme his brethren For he penned his Psalme wherin this is writen of purpose to the capacitie of the very meanest simplest of the people that they might vnderstaÌ„d and remember the state of the controuersie with the Donatistes Wherefore he commendeth the truth by the authoritie of the Church of Rome which of all the Churches that the Apostles planted was both néerest to them and best estéemed of amongst them But how farre S. Austin was from your fansie of the Popes supremacie when he alleaged the Church of Rome to this intent let that bee a token that writing for the learned who were of greater reach he alleageth the Churches of Ierusalem of Corinth of Antioche Ephesus Smyrna Pergamus of Asia Bithynia Galatia Cappadocia in a worde of all the rest as well as of Rome And this may be semblably noted in S. Ierom. Who when the Arians charged him with heresie did iustifie his faith by his communion with the Churches of the west and of Aegypt of Damasus Bishop of Rome and Peter Bishop of Alexandria According to the law of the Emperour Theodosius wherein it is decréed that all they should be named and esteemed Catholikes who beleeued of the Trinitie as Damasus and Peter did the rest to be accounted and punished as heretikes A great prayse I graunt of the faith of Damasus that so good an Emperour did set him for a sampler whom Christians should folow but a prayse common 〈◊〉 him with Peter Bishop of Alexandria and common to them both with sundrie Bishops of the East Nectarius Pelagius Diodorus Amphilochius Helladius Otreinâ—s Gregorie Nyâ—â—en and mo Of whom the same Emperour did 〈◊〉 make an other law that none should haue the châ—rge of â—ishoprickes committed to them but such as weâ—â— of their faith Whereby you may perceyue that the prayse giuen to Damasus by Ierom proueth a sound faith common to the Bishop of Rome with many other not a soueraine power peculiar to him alone aboue all Hart. Then
and loosing giuen Peter as though after Peter it were proper to the Pope Denys saith the contrarie that it is common to all Bishops Whereby you may perceiue beside that if the title which he giueth Peter did proue his supremacie though I haue shewed it doth not but if it did yet your commoÌ„ reason from Peters supremacie to the Popes is iointlesse For he who calleth Peter chiefe of the Apostles yet maketh Bishops equal and giueth Rome no greater priuilege then Antioche or Ierusalem But to knit vp that which brought vs vnto this of Denys you sée that your Rhemists tale of the assumption of the blessed virgin is contrarie to the scriptures Yet they doo beléeue it for the authoritie of Fathers That I might dout iustly whether you would beléeue the Fathers in those things in which they are conuicted of errour by the scriptures Hart. I cannot beléeue that the scriptures are against it For the Church doth holde it I meane the Catholike Church of Rome Rainoldes In that your Rhemists lauish too For though the lying Greekes as your Molanus calleth them doo vouch it very boldly yet the Latin writers do say it is vncertaine Yea the verie Martyrologe of the Roman Church affirmeth that the Church celebrateth the memory of S. Maries death but where it hath pleased God to hide her body the Churches sobrietie hath chosen rather to be ignorant therof religiously then to holde and teach some friuolous thing forged How much the more shamefull is the misdemeanor first of a Papist who saith that it is certaine she was assumpted by death not onely in soule but in body also then of the Pope who setting foorth his new Portesse saith that those things which are vncertaine are put out where this is left in which they can not denie themselues to be vncertaine But your Rhemists passe Who as though the Porâ—esse were not bolde enough in alleaging Damascene though it mende his tale with more then one lye they take that which their Portesse doth tell them lye and al and father it vpon S. Denys that it may haue the greater credit Hart. Our Rhemists will render good account I dout not of this which they haue writen when they shall heare what is said against it And that which you declared out of the holy scriptures concerning the time of S. Denys conuersion which is the greatest argument that you brought yet to disproue the storie auouched of his preseÌ„ce at the departure of our Lady I must referre to them For I my selfe know not indéede how to accord it But why do you presse that point about the Fathers touching their ouerseeing ether the wordes or meaning or consequent of the scriptures We are past the scriptures and proofes that the Fathers do gather out of them Rainoldes But if they may gather amisse out of the scriptures and ouershoote them selues in the word of God they may be deceiued in the word of man too and either not conceiue well or not remember well or not conclude well of it Which hapned to S. Ierom in that same point that I reproued a litle rather in Eusebius For he reckning Philo the Iew amongst the Christian ecclesiastical writers doth it he saith for this reason because Philo writing a booke touching the first Church planted by the Euangelist S. Mark in Alexandria hath praised the Christians reporting them to be not onely there but in many countries and calling their dwelling places Monasteries Whereby it is apparant that the Church of beleeuers in Christ at the first was such as moonkes endeuour and seeke to be now that nothing is any mans owne in proprietie none is rich amongst them none poore their patrimonies are distributed to the needy they giue them selues wholy to prayer and to singing of Psalmes and to learning and to continencie of life such as S. Luke also doth write that the beleeuers were first at Ierusalem And this booke of Philo touching the life of our men that is of men Apostolike is entitled of the contemplatiue life of men that pray because they did contemplate studie and meditate heauenly things and prayed to God alwayes Thus farre S. Ierom. Wherein that the pointes of contemplation and prayer being somewhat like in them whom Philo wrote off and in the Christian Church did make him to mistake the one for the other as likenes they say is the mother of error but that they were not Christians whom Philo meant in that booke it may appeere by foure circumstances of names of deedes of times and of places For they of whom Philo doth write were called Essees which was a sect of Iewes of whom some liued in action and some in contemplation The Christians were neuer knowne by name of Essees either contemplatiue or actiue Againe they in Philo did leaue their goods and substance to their sonnes or daughters or kinsemen or if they had no kinsemen to their friendes The Christians gaue them to the poore and such as stood in need of succour Moreouer the solemne day which they in Philo did meete together publikely to heare the word of God taught was the seuenth day of the weeke which was the Sabbat of the Iewes the saterday as we cal it The Christians were wont to meete on the first day of the weeke that is sonday the Lordes day as S. Iohn termeth it Finally they whom Philo discourseth of did liue in no towne or citie but without in gardens and solitarie places The Christians liued in cities Euen they who are namely mentioned by Ierom I meane the Christian Church placed by S. Marke in Alexandria were planted in the citie Alexandria it selfe whereas it is precisely noted by Philo that his Iewish moonkes did dwell about it and without it Wherefore it is manifest that Ierom did mistake or had forgot the wordes of Philo. Howbeit if he had both well conceiued and remembred them yet he thereof inferred amisse that the moonkes in his time were such as S. Luke doth write that the beleeuers were first at Ierusalem For the beleeuers at Ierusalem might keepe their owne if they listed as Peter saith to Ananias while it remained perteined it not to thee And when it was sold was it not in thine own power But Ierom saith that his moonks may not haue proprietie in any thing of their owne Beside the moonkes of Ierom did liue in continencie The beléeuers at Ierusalem had wiues vsed them for any thing that S. Luke sheweth Though by the way to note the difference betwéene the Iewish moonkes the Christian who els would be too like some of the Christian moonks in Ieroms time had wiues did beget childreÌ„ which I haue not read that anie of the Iewish did Last of all the moonkes whom Ierom doth meane as he must néedes by Philo were moonkes according to their
Latin for the vulgar it is idiotae Which word if we should haue translated the idiot we should haue doon iniury to the common sort of rude vnlearned men whom it doth betoken as you must néedes acknowledge who translate it the vnlearned as wee doo the vulgar Rainoldes True But you may sée then how wise your Rhemists are who charge vs with notorious folly becauâ—e we giue the name of Priest to sacerdos and not to presbyter For as the name of idiot doth come from idiota but is taken for a foole so the name of Priest is deriued from presbyter but signifieth a sacrificer by custome of our English speech Wherefore if your reason doo proue that all Pastors of the Christian Church must be called Priestes and haue autoritie to sacrifice because they are presbyterâ— it will proue as well that all vnlearned Christians must be called idiotes and may be begged for fooles because they are idiotae Which if you dare not say of vnlearned Christians though in very truth you deale with them as idiotes when you make such reasons to approue your Masse Massing Priestes vnto them learne by discharging your selues in the one to cléere vs of notorious folly in the other For sith in translating thinges as you confesse the sense must bee kept and the sense of wordes is that which vsually men vnderstand by them and by the worde Priest men vnderstand sacerdos that is to say a man appointed to sacrifice it foloweth thereof that our translatours did their dutie in giuing the name of Priests to them onely to whom the Priestly function in scripture doth appropriate it As for your Rhemists who still doo translate sacerdos a Priest as graunting that we haue no other English woâ—d for it and yet translate presbyter by the same worde too they do ioyne together that which God hath seuered and the wordes which the holy Gost hath distinguished they wittingly confound Wherein they doo lewdly abuse the simple Christians who are vnskilful in the tongues to make them in loue with the whorish sacrifice of the idolatrous Masse and alienate their mindes from the true religion professed in the Church of England For the name of Priest as it hath relation to sacrifice is sacerdos which worde your Trent-fathers doo therefore vse in handling the sacrifice of the Masse Now because the name of sacerdos is not giuen to the Ministers of the gospell in the new testament your Rhemists make the name that is giuen them the same in English with sacerdos To the intent that the simple not seeing the sleight may conceiue thereby that ministers of the gospell are Priestes ordeined to sacrifice and so may loth our Ministers who neither doo sacrifice nor list to be called Priestes and may embrace your Priestes who professe them selues to be Priestes yea Masse priestes and are sent to sacrifice as it is shewed in your Apologie of the English Seminaries Hart. That learned Apology which D. Allen wrote in the defense of our Seminaries doth iustly blame your new pulpits the very chaires of the scorneful for calling vs by that terme merily or mockingly For the Church of God knoweth no other Priests neither hath Christ instituted any other order of Priests but of these whom contemptuously you doo call Masse-priests Rainoldes So D. Allen saith But he proueth neither Priestes nor Masse by scripture vnlesse the Masse be the chaire and the Priestes be the scornefull Hart. Though he alleage not the scripture there to proue them yet hath he done it other where as in his Latin treatise of the sacrifice of the Masse and in our Annotations on the testament in English wherein his hand was chiefest For Esay doth specially prophecy of the Priestes of the new testament as S. Ierom declareth vpon the same place in these words You shall be called the Priestes of God the Ministers of our God shall it be saide vnto you And as here the Ministers of God are called Priestes in that very terme which your selfe confesse hath a relation to sacrifice so that they did sacrifice you may perceiue too by the Actes of the Apostles where it is writen of Prophets and Doctors in the Church at Antioche that they were ministring to our Lord. For the Gréeke signifieth that they were sacrificing and so Erasmus translated Whereby it is meant that they did say Masse and the Gréeke Fathers hereof had their name Liturgie which Eraâ—mus translateth Masse saying Missa Chrysostomi Howbeit we translate it ministring and not sacrificing or saying Masse though wee might if we would as you doo boldly turne what text we list and flée from one language to another for the aduantage of our cause But we kéepe our text as the translatours of the scriptures should doo most religiously Rainoldes Your text then doth say that the Prophets Doctors at Antioche were ministring but you to proue the Masse doo reproue your text For if the Gréeke signifie that they were sacrificing and your text translated the Gréeke into Latin how did your text kéepe his text when he translated it not sacrificing but ministring Will you say that the autour of your old translation which onely is approued by your men as authenticall did not performe that dutie which the translators of the scriptures ought most religiously You doo so for aduantage But in this point you doo him iniurie For though the worde may by consequent import to sacrifice when sacrifice is a seruice pertaining vnto them whose ministerie it betokeneth as where it is spoken of Leuites and Priestes yet doth it properly signifie to minister either in publike function after the originall thereof or in any as magistrates are called the ministers of God and Angels are saide to be ministring spirits and the Gentiles are willed to minister vnto the Iewes in relieuing of their necessitie In so much that the learnedst of your owne translators Isidorus Clarius and Arias Montanus who both haue turned the new testament out of Gréeke into Latin the one approued by the Deputies of the Trent-councel the other by the Doctors of Louan doo both of them translate it in this very place of the Actes of the Apostles not sacrificing but ministring which their affection to the Masse would haue béene loth to doo vnlesse the truth had forced them to it How much the more shamefull is the demeanour of your Rhemists who where they carp vs as leauing the Greeke for the aduantage of our cause them selues for the aduantage of their owne cause doo clip the meaning of the Gréeke against I say not the iudgement of Grammarians euen such as seeke to helpe them most but against the common vse of it in scripture against their olde text against their new translations yea against their owne conscience as that which you alleaged out of the Prophet Esay where they haue Englished it
point proueth the Papacy And what his iudgement was thereof I haue declared Now for them first who asked the aduise and counsell of the Pope I will tell you a storie which I pray consider of Theodosius the Emperour desirous to procure the peace of the Church consulted with Nectarius the Patriarke of Constantinople what way might best be taken for ending controuersies of religion The Patriarke imparted the matter to Agelius a Nouatian Bishop The Bishop to Sisinius a reader in his church The reader gaue aduise and counsel to the Patriarke Which the Patriarke liked of and shewed it to the Emperour the Emperour embraced it and dealt according thereunto Hart. You would inferre hereof that the auncient Fathers might aske the Popes counsell and yet not acknowledge him to be their supreme head Rainoldes True as the Emperour might of the Patriarke the Patriarke of the Bishop the Bishop of the reader Hart. The case is not like For it was the personal wisdome vertue lerning or faith of these men which made them to be sought to But that which made the Fathers séeke to the Popes was the prerogatiue of their office Rainoldes Wherein they could not erre as you heard say at Rhemes But you who distinguish the office of the Popes from their personall faith and giftes in this sorte must be put in mind that by the same reason Sergius the Patriarke of Constantinople sought to Pope Honorius in respect not of his personall wisedome vertue learning or faith but of his office too And so shall your selfe be forced to confesse that eyther the Pope may erre in consultations which he dealeth with by reason of his office as Pope Honorius did or the Fathers séeking to the Popes for counsell did séeke in respect of their personall giftes that they were learned and godly Pastours as many sought to Austin then to Caluin lately though neither of them were Pope Hart. Nay it is certaine that S. Ierom sought to Damasus for his office sake For he speaketh namely of the chaire of Peter that is the Sée Apostolike committed to Damasus Rainoldes But withall he speaketh of the inheritance of the Fathers that is the Christian faith which Damasus kept vncorrupted And therfore he sought to him as a godly lerned not as a Pastour only not for his office sake alone but for his person succéeding as in place so in doctrine to Peter Though in whatsoeuer respect and consideration Ierom sought to Damasus his séeking to be resolued in a point of faith doth not import soueraintie of power as I haue shewed Much les doth the counsell that Basill asked import it about asswaging of their troubles Least of all that Austin and the Bishop of Afrike who vnder shew of asking counsell of Innocentius in trueth gaue him counsell for feare least the Pelagians should haue seduced him to their errour Wherefore the auncient Fathers who sought aduise of Popes proue not the Popes supremacie No more doe they in déede who sought to further others or reléeue themselues by the Popes autoritie For autoritie power differ that such as are their brethrens superiours in the one may be their inferiours or equals in the other As wée agréed if you remember Hart. It may be so I graunt But they whom I named sought to Innocentius the first and other Popes as to supreme heads of all the Church in power not as to their superiours in autoritie only Rainoldes Their own wordes and déedes argue the contrarie For Chrysostome 14. being called into iudgement by his enemies namely by the Bishop of Alexandria others assembled in a Councell did appeale from them to a generall Councell and as himselfe speaketh thereof to iust iudgement Whereby hee declareth that the lawfull power of iudging his cause belonged to the Councell and not to the Pope Hart. But when he was depriued and cast out of his Bishoprike notwithstanding his appealing to the generall Councell he requested the Pope to write that those things being wrongfully done were of no force as in deed they were not and that they who did him such wrong might bee punished Rainoldes But in this request hée dealt with the Pope as with a member only of the generall Councell to which hée had appealed a member in power a principall member in autoritie For in praying him aboue the rest to write he shewed that he thought him to be of greater credit then other of his brethren But in appealing to them all ioyntly not to him alone hée shewed that the right of iudging the matter belonged not to him but to them in common Which is playner yet by that he saith farther of Bishops in seuerall that they are forbidden by lawes of the Fathers to take on thē the iudging of such as are without the limites of their diocese Wherefore the preeminence which Chrysostome gaue the Pope was of autoritie not of power The same I say of Basil or rather himselfe saith it desiring that the Pope would vse his own autoritie in sending men to succour them Hart. You doe vs great iniurie by this newe distinction of autoritie and power For Basil meant power when he named autoritie Rainoldes You will not say so if you weigh the grounde and circumstances of his spéech For the Easterne Churches being pestered with the Arian heresie by meanes of the Emperour Valens an Arian who persecuted the Catholikes the Churches of the West vnder Valentinian a Catholike Emperour did flourish with sinceritie of faith and faithfull Bishops Whereupon S. Basil conferring with Athanasius both Bishops of the East about their Churches state saith that the consent of the Westerne Bishops is the onely way meanes to helpe it in his iudgement For if they would shewe that zeale for our Churches which they did for one or two being taken among them selues in errour it is likely saith he that they should do vs good by reasō that the rulers would regard and reuerence the credit of their multitude the people euery where would folow them without gainsaying Now this whereto he wished a multitude of Bishops first is the same that afterward he sought to the Pope for Whom he prayed to deale himselfe in the matter vse his own autoritie in choosing and sending fit men to that purpose because the Westerne Bishops could not doe it easily by a cōmon conference and decree of Councell So that he desired a Councels aide chiefly because their consent multitude had greater credit as in his epistle to the Westerne Bishops themselues he saith againe It was not power therefore but credit and reputation that S. Basil meant in suing to be succoured by the autoritie of the Pope Which you must néedes graunt vnlesse you wil say that he thought the Councell to bée aboue the Pope in power against your Trent-doctrine of the Popes supreme power ouer the whole Church As
them and the Pope hath robbed them The ninth Chapter 1 The Church is the piller ground of the truth The common consent and practise of the Church before the Nicen Councell 2 the Councell of Nice 3 of Antioche of Sardica of Constantinople Mileuis Carthage Afrike 4 of Ephesus of Chalcedon of Constantinople est soones and of Nice of Constance and of Basill with the iudgements of Vniuersities and seuerall Churches throughout Christendome condemning all the Popes supremacie HART The Church doth acknowledge the doctrine of the Popes supremacie to be catholike Wherefore you doe euill to touch it with the name of Papistrie For the Church is the piller and ground of the truth Rainoldes The Church is the pillar and ground of the truth in office and dutie and the Priest is the messenger of the Lord of hostes But as there were Priestes who did not their message in shewing Gods will so there may be Churches which shall not vpholde and mainetayne the truth Hart. Nay that is true still which the Church teacheth For S. Paul sayth not that it ought to be the piller ground of the truth but that it is so Rainoldes Neither doth Malachie say that the Priest ought to be the messenger of the Lord of hostes but that hée is so And what is the occasion wherevpon S. Paule sayth that and to whom Hart. To Timothee that he might know how he ought to conuerse in the house of God which is the Church of the liuing God Rainoldes The Church then which Timothee was conuersant in and must behaue himselfe according to his charge in gouernment thereof is called by S. Paule the piller and grounde of the truth Hart. It is and what then Rainoldes But the Church which Timothee was conuersant in was the Church of Ephesus The Church of Ephesus then is called the piller and ground of the truth Now the Church of Ephesus hath condemned the doctrine of the Popes supremacie nor only that Church but other of the East too Wherefore if that be true still which the Church teacheth because S. Paule calleth it the piller and ground of the truth the doctrine of the Popes supremacie is wicked and Papistrie is heresie Hart. The Churches of the East haue erred therein But the West alloweth it for catholike doctrine And all the ancient Churches both of East and West did subscribe to it vntill schisme and heresie had seuered them one from the other Rainoldes That spéeche is as true as was the former of the Fathers For except the crew of the Italian faction who haue aduanced the Pope that they might raigne with him all Christian Churches haue condemned his vsurped soueraintie and do till this day Hart. All Christian Churches who did euer say so before you or what one witnesse haue you of it Rainoldes The Pastors and Doctours in Synodes and Councels wherein they tooke order for their Church-gouernment ech in their seuerall ages For to begin with the ancientst and so come downe to our owne it was in Cyprians tyme ordeined by them al that euery mans cause should be heard there where the fault was committed Hart. That must be vnderstoode of the first handling of causes not the last For they might be heard at Rome vpoÌ„ appeales if being heard at home first the parties were not satisfied Rainoldes The cause of the parties mentioned in Cyprian was heard at home alreadie by the Bishops of Afrike who excommunicated them Yet he reproueth them for running to Rome Wherefore the ordinaunce that he groundeth on did prouide for hearing and determining of causes both first last and all against such as appealed if you so tearme it to Rome Which he maketh plainer yet in that he calleth those Rome-appealers home if vpon repentaunce they séeke to be restored and sayth that they ought to pleade their cause there where they may haue accusers and witnesses of their fault and that other Bishops ought not to retract thinges done by them of Afrike vnlesse a few lewde desperate persons thinke the Bishops of Afrike to haue lesse autoritie by whom they were iudged alreadie and condemned Hart. When Cyprian denieth that the Bishops of Afrike are of lesse authoritie you must not imagine that he compareth them with the Bishop of Rome but with the Bishops of Fraunce Spaine Greece or Asia and chiefly of Numâ—dia Rainoldes You were better say as a Iesuit doth that Cyprian hath no such thing then answer so absurdly For it is too manifest that he compareth them with such as the parties whom they had coÌ„demned did run to for remedie And that was Cornelius Bishop then of Rome It was ordeined therfore by all the Bishops of Afrike Italie and others in the primitiue Church that the Pope should not be the supreme iudge of ecclesiasticall causes Hart. Why doth S. Cyprian then desire Pope Stephen to depose Martian a Nouatian heretike Bishop of Arle in Fraunce and to substitute an other in his roome a Catholike Rainoldes Nay why doe your men say that S. Cyprian doth so whereas he doth not For he desireth Stephen to write to the Bishops of Fraunce to depose him and to the prouince and people of Arle to choose a new Both which things are disproofes of the Popes supremacie Who neither could depose Bishops at that time as also the Cardinal of Aliaco noteth misliking that the Pope alone doth now depose them which then a Synode did neither when a Bishop was orderly deposed could he create an other but the people of the citie and Bishops of the prouince chose him Yea a Bishop chosen by them was lawfull Bishop though the Pope confirmed him not yea though he disallowed him as it is declared by a Councell of Afrike against the same Pope Stephen Wherefore Cyprian meant not that he might depose and substitute a Bishop but ought to giue his neighbours counsell to doe it for the common dutie that euery pastour oweth to all the sheepe of Christ to helpe them when they are in daunger And thus sith the ordinances of the primitiue Church deharred the Pope from the soueraine power of iudging deposing creating Bishops nor from this only but other ecclesiasticall causes as I shewed it foloweth that the primitiue Church did denie the supremacie of the Pope or to say it with the wordes of Cardinal Siluius Before the Councell of Nice men liued ech to himselfe and there was small regard had to the Church of Rome Hart. Yet there was a Councâ—l holden at Sinuessa or Suessa as some say before the Councel of Nice And there wheÌ„ Marcellinus the Pope was accused for offring incense vnto idols the Bishops sayd that he might be iudged of no man Which is a manifest token of their allowing his supremacie Rainoldes That Councell is a counterfeit As you may perceaue by that it reporteth that Diocletian
the youthes in his Pasquines nor poore men haue cause to stand in doute of him though he threaten being armed with a leauer and a dish-clout that a wil quel all who stand in his way crush theÌ„ in peeces And if the Parasites of the Pope think that to be lightning which he hath â—â—asht to burn England sure it is such lightning as was after the Poet the lightning of Salmoneus who shaking oft a torch did counterfeit the thundring soundes and lightning flames of heauen But such kindes of lightning although they daunt the wauering Gréekes and towne of Elis whose king is Salmoneus yet they daunt not the vnuincible Christians and citie of the liuing God whose king is the Lord. And let him who flasht it take héed if he bee wise least his foolish lightning as they say it happened to the lightner Salmoneus be reuenged with true lightning of almightie God to the vtter ruine of him selfe his towne and citizens For the Church which is lead by the holy Ghost into all truth hath béene alreadie taught by him out of the scriptures and shall be taught farther through the grace of God what difference there is betweene the lightning of Bristow and the light of Iesus Christ the lightning of Bristow the heate whereof doth hurt the bodies which it striketh the light of Iesus Christ the beames whereof delite the men to whom it shineth the lightning euill and pestilent which blindeth them who sée and killeth them who liue the light good and healthfull which giueth sight vnto the blinde and life vnto the dead Neither are wee without many godly men of excellent autoritie learning and iudgement euen amongst them whom this Tertullus nameth reprochefâ—lly great Maiâ—ters who could haue shewed this long ago â—â—wbeit they haue stayed hetherto from dooing it either because they thought his folies were refuted before they were writen for that after the maner of the Popish writers he bringeth no new matter but scowreth vp old rustie stuffe as one of them did note long since or because they purposed first to encounter with such as had writen before and more pithily entending to deale after with the rest in due time as an other signified of late that he meant or because the controuersies being sufficiently traueled in by many they thought that they might well cease from this labour though the Papistes ceased not from their impudencie as Ieremie hauing answered Hananiah once gaue him no answere wheÌ„ he repeated his error or because perhaps some had no leasure from their weightier charge of feeding the Church some listed not to striue with such a railing person some while they thinke that others haue taken it in hand do let it alone al either remember the counsell of the wise man that thou must not alwayes answere a foole least thou become like him or if it were requisite to answere him now least he seeme wise in his owne conceit they straine curtesie who should doo it For my part least the Philistines should vaunt any longer as if their were no man amongst the Israelites that durst fight with Goliath or the Israelites be gréeued with hearing the host of the liuing God to be so defyed of an vncircumcised Philistin I purposed through gods grace though perhaps Goliath would haue disdained me as a childe yet I purposed to set vpon him in the name of the Lord of hostes the God of the host of Israel But when I had prepared my selfe to the battaile and chosen smooth stones out of the brooke of Gods worde which are mightie through God to cast downe holdes euery high thing that is exalted against the knowledge of God I heard that the matter was dispatched alreadie by a stoute and faithful souldiour of Christ by whom many Philistines had before beene conquered Whose worke as I vnderstood since is at the presse too and shall be shortly published Wherefore laying now aside my former purpose I thought on that demaund and promise of Bristow touching the scripture and the Church wherein he doth challenge and offer vs the combat For whereas a countrie man of ours vnder the title of an vnlearned Christian concealing his own name had set foorth a booke touching the autoritie of Gods word 〈◊〉 Church Bristow willeth him to set out his booke and put his name to it with approbation of our Rabbines and with priuilege and promiseth that he shal quickly see it answered This booke haue I sought for but could not fall vpon it all the copies of it as I ghesse being sold. Neither knew I how to speake with the autor who had coÌ„cealed his name I dout not but for good cause But to satisfie if not wholy yet as farre as I might the chaleÌ„ge of Bristow I haue set out this litle treatise of the same point with the autours name thereto approbation not of Rabbines whom we leaue to that Synagogue whose rulers loue to be called Rabbi Rabbi Maisters Doctours but of graue and learned men whom it concerneth Which thing I hope will like him so much the better because it compriseth not onely that question touching the scripture and the Church that he desireth to be set out but certaine other also of the same kinde chiefly touching the Church whereof he hath onely the bare name to boast of And I looke for an answere so much the sooner because there are now fower yeares past since he promised a Latin booke to which whether it be come abroad already or to come shortly he may ioine if it please him an answere to these Conclusions Wherein if he thinke it méete for him to deale there are thrée things both easy to be doon and reasonable in my iudgement which I will request him One is that he will set downe the text of my Conclusions wholy with his answere as I had determined to doo with his Demaundes that the readers may sée what he confuteth and how An other that he will not kicke against the prickes that he will yéelde to the truth and not go about to darken the cléere light of the sunne of righteousnes with cauils and sclanders The thirde that if he be ashamed to say the truth preuails against me yet in reprouing such things as he assayeth to reproue he will deale more soundly and sincerely then D. Stapleton hath doon in his Doctrinall Principles of faith a worke more full of wordes then truth For to confute our doctrine that the Church is the company of Gods elect and chosen which we teach of the Catholike Church and it is true he teacheth that euill men are mingled in the Church with good the reprobate with the elect which thing is also true in the militant Church But true thinges agrée with true thinges neâ—â—her doth one truth ouerthrow an other We hold that the Catholike Church which is commended to vs in the Creede is the whole company of
Gods elect and chosen He answereth that the militant Church which is mentioned in the scriptures too containeth neither all the elect nor them onely And by this answere he saith he hath confuted the errour and heresie of the Hussites But therein he dealeth like them of whom the prouerbe is I asked for hookes they say they haue no mattokes But to returne to my purpose I haue thought good to publish my Conclusions euen in the same sort as they were set downe in verses and opened with suppositions according to the order of publike disputations of our Uniuersitie the rather for this cause that straungers might perceiue the kinde of our disputations which and all things els of our Uniuersitie are so debased by Bristow as if wisedom had béene borne with them alone and should dye with them Now these six Conclusions containe the chiefe fountaines and as it were the very foundations of the controuersies which we haue with the Church of Rome That the light thereof will be some helpe I trust to such as are not wilfully blinde to scatter Bristowes mistes and all the mistie cauils of Bristowes mates and complices For where it is certaine by manifest proofe as the Church of Rome it selfe doth acknowledge that the whole doctrine of religion and faith which leadeth the faithfull to saluation and life by the true and right worship of God is contained in Gods word the Papists to establish their superstitions and errours that are against the scripture diuide the worde of God into scripture and traditions that what they can not finde in Gods writen worde they may cauill that is was ordered by Gods traditionarie word so to terme it An old sleight and policie of the ympes of Satan wherewith first the Scribes and Pharises of the Iewes did craftily assay to beguyle our Sauiour Christ as the Euangelistes haue writen afterwarde the heretikes Tatian Valentinus Marcion and their felowes assayed in like sort to beguyle Christians as Ierom and Irenaeus shew And these are the parents of that corrupt opinion concerning traditions which are called Apostolike as by olde heretikes so by new The Roman Church embraceth the opinion as her owne childe litle considering that it is a bastard not conceyued by Christ but got by theft from old heretikes Unlesse perhaps she had it rather by adoption from Marcus Antonius who when the Senate had ratified the actes of Caesar he added to Caesars acts what he listed and would haue it to stand as sure as if Caesar him selfe had enacted it But that the opinion it selfe is a bastard whosoeuer begot it an heretike or an Heathen and therefore to be shut out of the Lordes assemblie which bastardes are forbidden to enter into my first Conclusion sheweth wherein I haue declared that the holy scripture teacheth the Church all thinges necessarie to saluation Now the Papists being cast downe from this bulwarke retyre vnto the Church and say thereof it can not erre that although their traditions that is their errours did not spring from Christ yet can they haue no faute because the Church doth hold them Herodotus reporteth that Cambyses king of Persia burning with wicked loue of his owne sister asked the Persian iudges whether hee might mary her by the law of the realme Whereto they made answere after consultation that they found no law which permitteth a brother to mary his sister but an other law they had found yet which permitteth the king of Persians to do what he list The Persian iudges offended if they fained this law the Persians if they made it But vpon that answere Cambyses did ioyne him self incesâ—uously in mariage with his sister The Heathens haue reproued this fact of his as wicked and is not the Papists â—act most like vnto it The Roman Church the Quéene of Baâ—ylon hath burned with a cursed desire not of her brother as Cambyses of his sister but of idols superstitions The aduise of Bishops the Roman iudges hath béene asked whether she might mary superstitions and idols by the law of Christ. The Bishops haue caused the scriptures to be serched and they finde no law whereby the worship of idols and superstitions is permitted but an other law they haue found yet which prouideth that the Church can not erre in decreeing any thing The Roman iudges offended who fained this law the Romanists who allow it But vpon this sentence their Church pretendeth mariage committeth adulterie with superstitions and idols in most abominable sort Yet Bristow layeth it in the foundation of his house and maketh mention of it as if it were the law of Austin yea of Christ but impudently and fasly that it may well appéere he neither knew what Christ said nor what Austin meant Wherefore to ouerthrow the ruinous walles both of the house and the foundation I haue set the second Conclusion against it which proueth manifestly that the militant Church may erre not in maners only but in doctrine too And that being settled doth séeme withall to settle strengthen the third wherein it is auouched that the holy scripture is of greater credit and autoritie then the Church Truly I should maruaile that it could euer come into the minde of any man to thinke otherwise had not S. Paul foretold that the man of sinne the sonne of perdition should sit in the temple of God exalt him self aboue God Which prophecie hath béene fulfilled in their eyes who haue séene Antichrist preferred before Christ they haue séene Antichrist preferred before Christ who haue séene the Church aduanced aboue the scripture For what is detracted from the scripture the worde of Christ that is in déede detracted from Christ the autour of the word And that which in shew is yéelded to the Church is attributed in truth to the Pope of Rome Both these thinges are euident by Albertus Pighius whose sayinges concerning the scripture and the Church although they bee very insolent and vngodly yet there were amongst them who liued before Pighius euen of the chiefetaines of the Romish Church as namely the Fathers of the Councell of Constance and Cardinall Cusanus who spake more insolently They who liued since haue kept the sense and substance of Cusanus and Pighius in that they geue a Princely or rather a tyrannicall autoritie to the Church for expounding the scripture as Cardinall Hosius dooth But they haue put fresh colours on it and qualified as it were the rigour of the spéeches in so much that Bristow treading the steppes of Hosius requyreth not greater autoritie for the Church but séemeth wel content to make it equall with the scripture Howbeit hee speaketh so I know not how that I dare not auouch he is of that mind For though he doo chalenge like obedience to them both like truth like priuilege to be frée from errour yet in that hée addeth
that we beleeue the scripture because of the Church if he come as néere to the meaning of Cusanus as he dooth to his wordes that he thinke the scriptures credit and autoritie dependeth of the Church and the Church imparteth autoritie canonicall as Pighius expresly saith vnto the scripture he hath a harder forhead then I thought he had Yet Andradius the expounder and patrone of the faith of Trent speaketh much more modestly and religiously to geue him his due praise of the autoritie of the scriptures Which first he acknowledgeth that they haue not from men but from God not from the Church but from the holy Ghost and then he concludeth thereof that it is detestable to teach that either profane bookes may be made canonicall by the Church Bishops or such as are certainly canonicall may be refused Of the which things to affirme the one he saith it is a point of notorious impudencie the other of madnesse and impietie not to be suffered O that Andradius had likewise detested the cuppe of the whoores abominations in other things Or sith he is dead I would to God that all Christians who of godly mind mislike somewhat in her and who dooth not mislike somewhat would mislike the rest of all her filthinesse too nor onely be Christians almost as Agrippa but like both almost and altogether to Paul as Paul did wish to him To the which end that I might help them forward as much as lay in me I haue doone the best I can to heale the dangerous humors of opinions which do so anoy the tast of séely soules that they thinke the heauenly bread to be poyson and abhorre the swéetest foode of life as woormwood These humours that I speake off are peruerse errours which seduce them from the truth in that article of our Créede I beleeue the holy catholike Church For some are perswaded that the name of holy Church belongeth not to the whole company of the Christian people but to the Ministers onely and Bishops of the Church no not to the Ministers of euery Church neither but of the Church of Rome euen the Pope and Cardinals Whom to haue gotten by a certaine custome to be called the church and that the church had doon receiued and ordeined that which was do on receiued and ordeined by them Marsilius Patauinus did note in his age and it is too well knowen vnto men of yéeres Other some and they of the lernedder sort acknowledge that the Church doth signifie the company of faithfull men and beléeuers but they wil haue that company to bée a people assembled by their own Bishop and cleauing to the head that is to the Pope least the Papall State be any way impaired They comprehende therefore all such within that company as doo professe the faith both the good and badde holy and profane godly and hypocrites There are some also who thinke that by this point to beleeue the holy church the churches authoritie is commended to vs that we should trust credite and obey the church which the Councell of Trent it séemeth would insinuate though somewhat darkely and distrustfully But Bristow therein dooth beare the bell away For he the more easily to deceiue English men at least the simpler if not all worketh treacherie with the dooble signification of wordes expounding this article I beleeue the Church as if the meaning of it were I trust the Church betwéene the which things there is great difference and that very manifest in the Gréeke and Latin though in our mother tounge not so Yet this man was created Doctor at Dâ—way and some doo account him a man of much value O wretched professors of the Doway-schoole that created such a Doctour but more wretched Papistes if they geue credit to such a Doctour who whether he be sophister or sclaunderer more notable it is harde to say A learned man among the Heathens if I remember well said that physicians can not finde a medicine against the byting of a sclaunderer But because the things are possible with God which are impossible with men therefore vpon confidence of his gracious goodnes I haue assayed to make one against the biting of this sclaunderer and of the like in the fourth Conclusion wherein I haue declared setting apart the Prelates of the Church of Rome and goates mingled with shéepe that the holy Catholike Church which we beleeue is the whole companie of Gods elect and chosen Moreouer least the painting of the Romish Church should make vnskilfull young men to be enamored of her when they should heare many commend her as Catholike Apostolike and sound in faith to take this visard also away from her face wash away her painting with water of the holy Ghost I haue added the fifth Conclusion that the Church of Rome is not the Catholike Church nor a sound member of the Catholike church A matter cléere in truth but hard to be perswaded specially to louers for Cupide is blinde And as he saith in Theocritus The things that are not faire seeme faire to him that is in loue Daphnis in the Poet saith so to Polyphemus we by experience haue found it true in Bristow For he being besotted with the loue of the whoore is not content to say that she alone is Catholike that errour were more tolerable at least it were an error common to him with many But he affirmeth farther that the Church might be was called Apostolike for this cause onely that we might be directed thereby as by a marke to the Church of Rome founded by the Apostles Peter and Paul the onely Church now left of all the Churches Apostolike Which flattering spéech of this louer the Pope of Rome himselfe the bridegroome of his Church though doating on his bride too yet refuseth acknowledging that the Church was called Apostolike by the Fathers in the Creede to note the beginning of the Church which it hath from the Apostles because they deliuered once the Churches doctrine and spread it abroad through all the world As for them that geue the title of Catholike to the Church of Rome they must take aduisement how to cléere their boldnesse from attaint of sacriledge who decke an adulteresse with the spoiles of the spouse of Christ or to thinke the best of the Church of Rome who spoile the mother to decke the daughter and her not the best with great wrong and iniurie to the rest of the sisters For the name of Catholike dooth not appertaine to this or that Church but to the Church vniuersall continued through all nations ages and prouinces from Adam vnto vs and to our posteritie as the Councell of Trent and the expounders of the Councell such is the force of truth doo confesse plainly But the chiefest errour that is to be abated is theirs who are perswaded that the Church of Rome is of right
so the golden treasure of truth by striking reasons as it were together is parted from the dregs which it hath not gotten froÌ„ the holy veines whence it is digged but from mens vessels wherein it is receiued and the corne that is sowen for the foode of the soule is winowed with the winde that bloweth from the holy Ghost by the husbandmen of heauen that it may be cleaner from the chaffe of errours The chéerefull vndertaking and faithfull performing of the which duetie the common wealth may chalenge at our hands of right specially for that it hath indowed and furnished this noble Vniuersitie and place of exercise of good learning with priuileges with houses with lands in ample sort to this intent chiefly that it might be a nurserie for Pastours of the Church For both it is méete that Pastours of the Church should be not onely able to edifie the faithfull with sound and wholesome doctrine but also to conuince them who gainesay it as S. Paul witnesseth and we shall be able to conuince gainesayers so much the more easily fitly and effectually if first we practise that in a warlike exercise which we may do after when we shall make warre with enemies in déede Now it there be any thing wherein it is very conuenient and behoofefull both for Christian souldiers to be well practised against the mischieuous attempts of their enemies and the golde of Christian truth to be throughly clensed from the drosse the wheate from the chaâ—â—e by the paines of husbandmen and workmen of the church doubtlesse thâ—s which I haue chosen to debate of is so profitable being knowen so perillous vnknowen that we haue great cause to bend all our wittes vnto the serch knowledge of it For there haue assailed the Church now this great while and scatteredly there range they of whom Christ hath warned vs to beware whom Peter did foretell of that they should be in the Church I meane false teachers and false prophets who comming to vs in the clothing of sheepe yet being rauening woolues in their hearts and déedes naming them selues the Church as if they were the onely sheepe of Christ do teach damnable heresies and blaspheme the way of truth To spred the infection of the which pestilence farther amongst the faithfull as Rabsakeh the Assyrian when he did sollicit Ierusalem to fall from God did vse the name of God against the people of God so that Romish Rabsakeh the enemie of the new Ierusalem doth vse the Churches name against the children of the Church He saith that Christians ought to beleeue the Catholike Church and that no Church is Catholike at all but the church of Rome and that we therefore who haue forsaken it haue fallen away from the communion of the catholike Church moreouer that there can not be any hope of saluation out of the Church and therefore that all who eyther leaue the Church of Rome or ioine them selues to any of our reformed Churches must needes be lost for euer This faire but false visard of the catholike Church doth leade many simple men out of the way who shunne the catholike faith while they are afraide least they should fal from the faith dare not ioyne them selues with the Church of Christ least they should be seuered from the coÌ„munion of the Church So that we may iustly say to the Bishops of Rome at this day that which a Roman Bishop did write long ago to the Bishops of Iewry Ye thinke your selues to deale for the faith O ye Romans ye go against the faith ye do arme your selues with the name of the church ye fight against the church Wherfore being perswaded that the handling hereof would auaile much to ease the ignorance of the vnskilfull and quaile the stubbornnesse of our aduersaries and furder which is the chiefe point the saluation of the elect I for the duety or rather more then duty which I owe to the church of Christ resolued with my selfe hauing such opportunitie of disputation offered to treate of the state of the Catholike of the Roman and of our owne Church The rather for that the foundations of this woorke are already layed in our former disputation wherein it was shewed out of the word of truth that the scripture teacheth all things needefull to saluation that the church may erre while it is militant on the earth that the autoritie of the church is subiect to the scripture Which things being setled it will be the easier to build thereupon that which I haue purposed I meane to lay open the nature and condition of the catholike church the corruption of the Roman and the soundnes of ours But before I enter into the opening of these pointes which I will doo by Gods grace briefly as the time sincerely as the charge requireth first I must desire and craue of you all my hearers most earnestly not that you will giue mée an attentiue eare which of your owne accord ye doo but that with your eare you will bring a minde desirous to embrace the truth In Athenes there were iudges called Areopagites whose order was such as the Heathens write and commend them for it that they bid the pleader pleade without preambles and made him to be sworne that he should tell them no vntruth them selues did heare the cause with great silence while it was pleading and iudged of it with great vprightnes when they had heard it Such Areopagites would I haue you brethren in this our Christian Athenes shew your selues to me warde I wil declare the matter as a pleader ought simply and sincerely without preambles though vnbidden and without vntruthes though vnsworne Giue you as iudges should doo fauourable audience without a partiall preiudice of foreconceiued errors and sentence with the truth without corrupt affections according vnto right and reason And I would to God you would heare me in such sort as Denys the Areopagite heard Paul the Apostle whose words of the vnknowen God he beleeued perswaded by the light of truth though against that opinion which hée had foreconceiued God the father of lightes and autour of truth who gaue Paul a fiery tongue to lighten and kindle the mindes of his hearers who moued the hart of Denys to sée the light of godlines and to be set on fier with it vouchsafe with the direction of his holy spirit both to guide my tongue that it may serue to open the mysteries of his word and to soften your hartes that the séede of life may fall vpon a fruitfull ground Open our eyes O Lord and we shall sée giue vs fleshy heartes and we shall assent Let thy spirit leade vs into all truth and let thy word be a lanterne to our feete that wée may beléeue the things which thou teachest and doo the things which thou commaundest to the euerlasting glory of thy goodnes and our owne saluation Amen In the treatie of the matter that I set in hand with
for S. Austin and the Bishops of Afrike it is too manifest that they kept this new distinction as you terme it For of the two Popes whom you say they sought to they desired the one to assist them with his autoritie the other not to chalenge power in their Church causes A great fault of yours to say that S. Austin and the Bishops of Afrike sought to Caelestinus for the prerogatiue of his office when they dealt against his vsurped prerogatiue Greater if you did it wittingly and willingly Wherof your Annotations do geue strong suspicion in that hauing quoted all the other places they lâ—â—ue this vnquoted least the reader should find the fraude Hart. I was not at the finishing of our Annotations They who set them downe knew their own meaning and will I warrant you maintaine it But what a souerainty the Fathers yéelded to the Pope it may appeare by this as D. Stapleton sheweth that they thought no Councell to be of any force vnles he confirmed it For the Fathers assembled in the Councell of Nice the first generall Councell sent their epistle to Pope Siluester beséeching him to ratifie and confyrme with his consent whatsoeuer they had ordeined Rainoldes The Councell of Nice had no such fansie of the Pope Their epistle is forged and he who forged it was not his craftes-master For one of the Fathers pretended to haue writen it is Macarius Bishop of Constantinople Whereas Constantinople had not that name yet in certaine yéeres after the date of this epistle but was called Bizantium neither was Macarius Bishop of Bizantium at that time but Alexander Moreouer they are made to request the Pope that he wil assemble the Bishops of his whole citie Which is a droonken spéech sith the Bishops of his whole citie were but one that one was himselfe Unlesse they vsed the word citie as the Pope answering them in like sort that he conferred with the Bishops of the whole citie of Italie And so it is more sober but no more séemely for the Councell of Nice Finally neither Eusebius who was at the Councell nor Rufinus nor Socrates nor Theodoret nor Sozomen nor other auncient writers doo mention any such thing Only Peter Crabbe the setter foorth of it had it out of a librarie of Friers at Coolein But wheÌ„ce had the Fryers it Hart. The Fathers of the Councell of Constantinople the second generall Councel wrote to Pope Damasus for his consent to their decrees And that is witnessed by Theodoret. Rainoldes It is and so witnessed that it ouerthroweth the Popes soueraintie which D. Stapleton would proue by it For they wrote ioyntly to Damasus Ambrose Britto Valerian Ascholius Anemie Basill and the rest of the Westerne Bishops assembled in a Councel at Rome Nor only to them but to the Emperour Theodosius Yea to Theodosius in seueral and more forcibly For they requested him to confirme and ratifie their decrees and ordinances Wherefore if the Pope haue such a supremacie whose consent and liking therof they desired what supremacie hath the Emperor whom they besought to ratifie them and to confirme them Hart. Nay your own distinction of power and authoritie dooth serue well and fitly to this of the Emperour For their decrées and ordinances of doctrine were true and of discipline good though he had not confirmed them But more would accept of them as good and true through his word countenance As we see that many doo frame themselues to Princes iudgements Wherefore it was the Emperours autoritie and credit for which they desired his confirmation of their decrées not for any soueraintie of power that he had in matters of religion Rainoldes Not for any soueraintie of power that hee had to make matters true of false or good of euill but to make his subiectes vse them as good and true being so in déede Which perhaps the Fathers of the Councell meant too But your own answere may teach you to mend your imagination of that they wrote to Pope Damasus For the doctrine of Christ which they decréed was true the discipline good though he had not consented to it But more would accept of it as good true through his agréement and allowance As we sée that manie doe follow the mindes of Bishops Wherefore it was the Popes autoritie and credit for which they desired his consent to their decrées not for any soueraintie of power that he had in matters of religion Which is plaine by their crauing not of him alone but of other Bishops to like thereof also that the Christian faith being agreed vpon and loue confirmed amongst them they might keepe the Church from schismes and dissensions Hart. All Bishops might allow the decrées of Councels by consenting to them But the Pope confirmed them in speciall sort For S. Cyrill saith of the third general Councel of Ephesus that Pope Caelestinus wrote agreeably to the Councell and confirmed all thinges that were done therein Rainoldes S. Cyrill sayth not that of Caelestinus but of Sixtus Howbeit if he had yet this would proue autoritie still and not power As Prosper noteth well that the Nestorian heresie was specially withstood by the industrie of Cyril and the authoritie of Caelestinus But these very wordes of Cyrill touching Sixtus doe ouerthrow your fansie conceaued on the Popes confirming of Councels For the Councell of Ephesus was of force and strength in Caelestinus time by your own confession Notwithstanding Sixtus who succéeded him did confirm it afterward In déede the truth dependeth neither of CouÌ„cel nor of Pope though wheÌ„ Popes Councels were good godly minded they were chosen vessels and instruments of God to set forth the truth For as Ioshua sayd to all the tribes of Israel euen to the Priests also assembled in a Councell If it seeme euill to you to serue the Lorde choose you whom you will serue whether the Gods which your Fathers serued or the Gods of the Amorites but I and my house will serue the Lord so the right faith and religion of Christ is firme of it selfe and ought to be imbraced of euery Christian with his houshold whether it please the tribes that is the Church or no. But the Church is named the piller and ground of truth in respect of men because it beareth vp the truth and confirmeth it through preaching of the word by the ministerie of Priests in the old testament and Bishops in the new whom therefore Basil termeth the pillers and ground of truth Now the more there be of these who maintaine it and the greater credit they haue amongst men the stronger and surer the truth doth séeme to be and many yéeld the sooner to it For which cause the doctrine of Barnabas and Paul though assuredly true yet was coÌ„firmed by Iames Peter and Iohn who were counted to be