in a Rhetoricall and Oratorious way endeavour in the most part of your Book to publish your great Sufferings and extraordinary Piety and so to move us all to compassion and ravish us all into admiration as if ye meant rather to perswade then to prove them Hee answereth that he cannot answer since here is no sence And wherefore I pray Because the Interrogatory point is put after these words or from us Truly As the word agree or differ may by a certain Figure in Grammar called Zeugma be understood to be joyned with all those words so is the point of Interrogation But it should bee at the end as it is in the Observations And whereas it is in the beginning in stead of a Comma it is either the Printers over-sight or mine But to say that this great learned Clerk could not perceive this wherein the most ignorant findeth no difficulty who can believe him It is a pretty evasion to elude my Question Whereas he saith that the Interrogation should have been after Anabaptists as if the Reformed Protestants who refute Brownists and Anabaptists should say we Brownists and Anabaptists it is but his foolery which yet we could easily endure if he answered the Question Which since he cannot do I take it for granted that in this they have not proceeded well or at least not so well as they might If I should serve my selfe of such poore advantages or shifts rather as easily I might up and down in his and C.C. Books I should answer nothing at all as this Gentleman does But good men know that when ever I doubt of sence in them what ever I do I deale ingenuously with them and consult with sundry to find out their meaning and when neither others nor I my selfe can find any sense in their writings I passe it over in silence not reproving that which I understand not or that cannot be understood But if others understood it it is a great shame for this great Divine to have been so dull 7. Consid A.S. Whether the Apol. Narr be published in the name of the Five Ministers or of all those also or a part of those whom they pretend to hold their Tenets If in the name of you Five only whether ye Five can arrogate a power unto your selves to maintain these Tenets as the constant opinion of all your Churches having no generall confession of their Faith thereabouts If in the name of all the rest we desire you would shew your Commission from all your Churches c. These Questions have much vexed M.S. and put him to his wits end he would not answer but turnes them over unto me and will have mee to answer To which therefore I doe answer 1. Quaestio questionem non solvit 2. I answer directly 1. that this Answer I have made to the Apologie I have done it of my selfe and have done it by Authority since I have a Licence granted by him that by Authority Licenceth Books 2. I write in defence of all the best Reformed Protestant Churches and specially of that of Scotland France and the Netherlands to whose Judgement and Authoritative power in Synods I acknowledge my Booke to be subject so I arrogate nothing but with due Dependence and subjection but the Five Ministers are as Independent as I am Dependent as imperious as I am subject and odedient to my Superiours If they will answer as I we shall no more contest They have gained me to them if I have not gained them to the Church of Christ Besides this These Questions cannot reasonably bee propounded to A.S. 1. for A.S. is no Sectary neither Independent Brownist Anabaptist Arminian c. condemned or rejected by the Church of England or any other well Reformed Church 2. He is no minister much lesse an Independent Minister 3. He is not a Suitor for a Toleration of any not tolerated or intolerable Religion as the Quinqu-Ecclesian Ministers 4. He has not written against the common Faith of Reformed Dependent Churches as they have 5. If he had done so he should judge himselfe bound to give Reason both of his Faith and answer all those who would ask for an account thereof 6. However you turne and returne the Interrogation yet are you bound to answer 1. M.S. takes upon him to answer but answereth not as we shall God willing heare His first answer is It is no arrogating for any Christian upon just occasion to make his Confession of faith But to what Question I pray answereth this I grant you this but answer you to my Question In whose name c. His second Answ The Confession of Faith in Doctrine that is in all the best Reformed Churches is theirs A.S. As wide as before the Question is not of the Confession of Faith but about the Apologie in whose name it is published c. 2. M.S. For one touching pure Discipline it was not found in Scotland whiles the Tyrannie of Bishops prevailed A.S. 1. Here he seemeth to acknowledge that being freed from Episcopall Tyrannie we have pure Discipline which I acknowledge to be true 2. If by pure Discipline he understands Presbyteriall Government wee had it when Bishops prevailed howbeit oppressed by Episcopacie 3. There is no Confession of Faith if it be taken strictly but of some points of Discipline in the Apologie but we cannot know of them in whose name I am not angry at their Confession of Faith as M.S. saith but sory for their Schismes and want of Charity neither is it true that I have opened other mens mouthes but God Efficiently and your Calumnies against the Church Occasionally have opened good mens mouthes against you Turdue sibi malum cacat and yee must be content to drink as ye have brewed for your selves 3. M.S. 3. The godly learned Fathers Tertullian Justin Martyr c. produced no Authority from men to Apologize for the truth The Scripture they Apologized for bore them out A.S. 1. It seemeth by this Answer that they Apologize only for Scripture and can produce no Christian Church that they Apologize for 2. Tertull. Justin Martyr and all the Fathers apologized in the name of all the true Christian Churches of their time and acknowledged themselves and their Apologies to be subject to the Judgement and Authoritative spirituall power of Synods and they were as Dependent upon them as ye are Independent 3. Howbeit their Apologies had no Authoritie of men yet were they able sure to tell from time to time in whose Names they did Apologize M.S. 4. The Parliament allowes the five Ministers more viz. to shew their Reasons therefore the less to shew their Opinion A.S. 1. This answereth not yet the Question 2. But the Parliament alloweth them not a particular clandestin Assemby separated from the Generall Assembly 3 It alloweth them not to print Apologies against all the best Reformed Protestant Churches when they are sitting in qualitie of Members of the Assembly and against the Opinion of the most part of the
l'esmotion bruyante de ses entrailles sur vos Eglises qu' Il nous donne bien tost subject de glorifier son Sainct Nomen vostre delivrance Amen jesuis Monsieur Vostre tres-humble serviteur Morus Geneve 18. Septemb. 1644. To Monsieur Buchanan a Scottish Gentleman at London SIR I Have shewed our Consistory the writing which you were pleased to addresse to them by my meanes whereby after you have deduced the Causes of your Troubles and the divers obstacles that keep back so long the publique peace you demand of us our Advice and particularly as to the Opinions of certain of the Members of your Synod that maintaine that all Churches may be sufficiently governed by their Consistories every one a part without any dependance at all upon the greater Assemblies that have fuller Authority such as are the Colloques and the Provinciall and Nationall Synods To which Head I have direction from them to write unto you that as our bowels have ever earned in compassion toward you as concerning your misfortunes having been very sensible of the Afflictions of Ioseph and considered the sad face of your Churches as a calamity that touches us very neare however we beheld it but at such a distance so we can doe no other then redouble our sighes to understand how the Devill sowes his Tares during the darke night of your Affliction and stirrs up such diversity of Spirits who through a zeale voyd of Knowledge teare in pieces that seamelesse Coate of our Lord and Saviour Iesus Christ But that which touches us yet nigher is that into an Assembly that should have no other levell or ayme save such a peace as may be Holy such differences and misunderstandings should glyde and insinuate themselves as ought not to spring up amongst the Servants of God or that Christian Prudence ought at least to stifle in their very birth and first Rise following the Authority of the Holy Scripture the Custome of the Primitive Church the History of all Ages and the Experience of our owne Times For not to stay my selfe upon the name of Independents which they take or others call them by though it deserve for ever to be banished from among those that are Orthodox and to be left to the Councells or to the Bishop of Rome know we not that the internall Kingdome of our Lord Iesus Soveraigne Monarch of the Church which tends all to unity to consummate all in One as He is one with his Father cannot possibly entertaine an Union without a Communion of the Spirit And is not this Communion extreamly weakened by meanes of the distractions of the severall members of the Body and by reason of the obstruction of the Vessells which should serve her as so many Conduit-pipes How should this Spirit freely passe up and downe from one part of the Body to the other for the entire aggregation of the Body of the Saints by its influence if a singularity of Discipline as a thick Hedge interpose and choake up its way How should ever this Body grow into a perfect man according to the measure of that perfect stature of Christ in all its joynts if so be that the Foot have no need of the Eye if the inferiour members disjoynt and loose themselves from the noble parts and the noble despise the lesse honourable which yet are the more necessary How can the Building of the Spirituall Temple be advanced if the worke-men will needs doe their worke every one a part and will not maintaine a close correspondence and understanding the one with the other Or this Heavenly Army how shall it ever be able to vanquish its Enemies when we see its Squadrons breake thus their Files and that its Bounds are so badly ranged The Scripture often tyes the Power of the Church and her Beauty in one band together But neither the one nor the other of these Graces can ever preserve its strength if men come once to set at naught that exquisite prop and ornament that Generall Assemblies afford it There it is that the Church still re-inforces her selfe and where she makes her selfe formidable as an Army that marches with Banners flying in a kind of Holy Triumph There it is where her Countenance appeares glorious after she hath gotten out the staines and filled up the wrinckles wherewith particular Mens Opinions and passions had eclipsed her lustre There it is that her Head comes to shine as bright as though she were Crowned with Starres and that she beares in her Hands those two staves of Beauty and Bands And to save my selfe the labour of alleadging here the Policy of the Church of the Iewes wherein notwithstanding it is evident that the great Councell of the Sanhedrim had an authentique direction Paul and Barnabas in their Dispute touching Ceremonies had they their recourse to any private man or particular Consistorys or decided they the point in controversie every one by his private Authority as he conceived of it No they assembled a Councell wâ—â— should serve as a Glasse and patterne to all the posterity of the Faithful even to the end of the world When as the Celebration of Easter Day was so much controverted was every Church left to its liberty to celebrate it after its own guise and fashion No here were assembled I know not how many Synods wherein it was ordered that it should be celebrated constantly on the Lords Day So when Constantine saw how the Bishops the People banded themselves one against the other like to Symplejades to use Eusebius his terme he convocated the Nicene Synod as though he had leavyed an Army for God protesting thereupon according to the report of Theodores Socrates that he had not found out any other meanes to settle any thing that might be firm and holding But we should be forced to interweave all the Epoches of the Church if we should bring here all that might be brought to this purpose These things are so cleare and so well knowne that it should be unusefull to speak of them did they not justifie the proceedings held at this day every where in the Orthodox Churches For we know not of any one that in a Conformity with the Primitive Church accounts not her selfe happy when she can see the Servants of God gathered into an Holy Assembly regulating with common consent that which appertaines either to the Decorum of the service or else the points of Doctrine by reason and by Scripture which is farre above all Reason And for our selves since you are pleased to demand our Advice we protest to all the world how great Enemies soever we are of Tyranny that we are no whit lesse of Anarchy We abominate and detest together with the usurpations of the Pope the madnesse of the Anabaptists We prize as high as ever did our Fathers a free Councell convocated in the name of God wherein his Spirit and Word may preside and have the casting voyce and we are clearely of Opinion that
were resolved to maintain 8. And whether it was the duty of those that were to be judged before that ever matters were propounded or debated in their Assembly to propound them and debate them themselves before the people before all the Water-men Mid-wives and children yea and the whole Kingdome Was there ever any such way taken in any Synod or Assembly in this world before this time M.S. But they declare themselves to close neerer with the Assembly were they all Presbytortans as we know the contrary then thousands ever thought they would A.S. This is but your fiction for if I should tell you some mens judgement mine own concerning you before the beginning of this Assembly I must say wee never thought that your Opinions could have been so absurd as we have fince found them in your Books we beleeved that ye were all to-gether conform with the rest of the Protestant Churches and that what ye did in separating your selves from Episcopall Government it was meerly out of necessity because of their persecution And I can assure you that this was the charitable construction that thousands of the Scots and French Protestants made of your proceedings 2. This your pretended Fact is grounded upon a Supposition contrary to your knowledge as you declare in your Parenthesis as we know the contrary and therefore is de ente possibili non de actuali M.S. they do profess themselves so unwedded to their former prastises that upon discovery of more light they are most willing to let it in A.S. This is the common tone of all Sectaries so did the Arminians say would to God that they and others of that Sect were so minded and thought not it rather derogatorie to the honour of so Independent Spirits to receive any light at all from others whose Spirits are subject to the Spirits of the Prophets But yee receive honour one from another c. But all this is not satisfactory to my Question in this Observation M.S. Seeing all he has said to be little or nothing to purpose and not answering to my Question he bringeth here his pretended Achilles his main answer The Assembly is not saith he to conclude things by pluralitie of Votes if you dare beleeve the Ordinance of parliament whose words are to confer and treat touching Doctrine Discipline c. and to deliver their Opinions and Advices as shall be most agreeable to the word of God And in case of difference of opinions among the said Divines they shall present the same together with the Reasons thereof to the Houses of Parliament This taketh away in his conceit pluralitie of voyces and doth more then allow so much as is done in the Apologeticall Narration A.S. I deny that the Assembly is not to conclude any thing by Plurality of Votes for they conclude by Plurality of Votes even those Opinions and Advices that they are to deliver to the Parliament and if it were not so they could not at all conclude their Opinions and Advices 1. And as for the Ordinance it commandeth one thing viz. to conferre c. but it forbiddeth not the other viz. to conclude things by Plurality of Votes 2. Howbeit it should forbid them in some manner to conclude some things by plurality of Votes yet should it not follow that it forbiddeth them absolutely and altogether 3. If any thing can be indirectly inferred of against concluding of things by pluraelity of voyces it is only this viz. That the Assembly in case of dissent amongst themselves shall conclude nothing before that they present it together with their Reasons to the Houses of Parliament and the reason is because howsoever the Church may conclude things by Ecclesiasticall authority yet cannot her Authority make it to be received in the Kingdome by Law and it is the Magistrates duty before that he establish it by Civill Authority and make it to passe as a Law that may oblige his Subjects in foro civili that he first informe himselfe throughly and know well upon what ground he passes it and this may be cleerly proved by the practice of the Primitive Church for howsoever there the Ministers of the Church concluded many things by their Canons without civill Authority in foro Ecclesiastico yet the Civill Magistrate afterwards after due information concluded the same things in foro civili as wee see through all the first 14. Titles of the first Book of the Code But out of this it cannot be inferred that after they have delivered their Advices to the Parliament they cannot conclude it if they have the power of a Synod 4. Yea I may say more that the Ministers of the Primitive Church in the first three hundred years after Christ exercised this Authority against the Civill Magistrates will in foro Ecclesiastice But praised be God our Ministers have no cause to doe so 5. Neither is it credible even according to the Independents their own Tenets that those they hold to be Lay-men only should by their lay-Authority build us up a Confession of Faith create and depose Ministers exercise the power of the Keyes in Censures and Excommunications c. Neither read we of any Prince or Civill Magistrate that ever usurped that power Neither remember I any that ever maintained it besides Sectaries 6. Yee your selves will not admit them to be ruling Elders how then admit ye them to bee Supreame Ecclesiasticall Judges in Ecclesiasticall and Spirituall matters viz. in matters of Doctrine c. Some will object but what if a Ministers Conscience cannot assent to that which the Assemby passes by plurality Votes in such a case may he not oppose himselfe to the rest Answ He may oppose himselfe in reasoning the businesse all along till it come to be concluded by Plurality of Votes but after that it is once concluded he must in foro externo according to Gods ordinary providence let it passe yea subscribe unto their Iudgements for in such a subscription he subscribes not that it is his particular judgement or according to his private Conscience but that it is the publick Iudgement of the Assembly 2. And if ye will oppose the whole Assembly because that it is against your particular judgement and Conscience so shall they all oppose you silly man and so nothing at all shall be concluded 3. Yea were it not as I say no Senate no Councell no Parliament no Ecclesiasticall or Politicall Assembly could ever conclude any thing for very hardly will ye finde any wherein some man doth not dissent from the rest And finally how ever one man in an Assembly dissenting from the rest might oppose the Iudgement before it be given or after the Iudgement for some scruple of Conscience which yet is not lawfull yet might he not at any hand doe it in writing of Apologies against their Iudgement much lesse before that they give out their Iudgement and for feare they judge otherwayes then he would have them judge 10. All this Answer is only against
Evangelisé il nous soit Anatheme Gal. 1. Jusques La que Sainct Jehan la douceur la charitè mesme ne veut point que nous recevions en nos maisons n'y que nous saluions seulement ceux qui ne nous apportent la Sancte Doctrine de l'Evangile 7. Quant a ce qu'ils ne font aucun cas du Jugement n'y du Consentement des autres Eglises Reformées ayns le rejettent comme un Argument Humain je trouvc qu'ils ont fort peu profite en l'Escbole de Sainct Paul qui veut que nous nous submettions les uns aux aulrres en la crainte de Dieu que nous nous prevenions les uns les aultres par honneur que les esprits des Prophetes soient subjects aux Prophetes A Dieu ne plaise que nous metions en un mesrus rang les Ordonances de Dieu et les constitutions Ecclesiastiques 〈◊〉 ce que Dieu nous dit nous est une Ley invialable 〈◊〉 aux bommes Nous esprouvons toutes choses retenons ce qui est bon Pour le fonds et l'Essence de la Religion il n'y a que Dieu seul qui en puisse Ordaâ—ner Mais quant a l'ordre Exterieur a la police de l'Eglise ce sage pere de famille se contrute de nous dere en general que tout se face en sa maison honnestement par ordre il laisse le detail a la saincte Prudence de ceux quil appelle a conduire son peuple c'est a eux lors quils sont Assembles au nom du Seigneur de le supplier ardenment de presider au milieu d'eux et de leur mettre un coeur les choses qui seront les plus expedientes pour sâ— gloire l'edification de ses Enfants la conduite des autres Eglises Reformees ne nous impose pas un jong necessaire ne nous peut estre proposee comme une loy infallible mais elle nous doibt servir d'Exemple que nous devons imiter si nous ny recognoissons des repugnances manifestes a la parole de Dien que s'il y a quel qu'un qui ponse estre contentieux nous a avens pas une telle constume ny aussi les Eglises de Dieu 1 Cor. 11.16 6. Nous tenons pour constant qu'il n'y a n'y doibt avoir auoune charge pour paistre conduire l'Eglise qui ne soit fondé en la parale de Dieu ainsy les charges du Ministre Pasteur Evesque Ancien Diacre sont fondèe simmediatement for mellement expressement dans la parole de Dien bien que quelques nus venlent que la charge d'Ancien telle qu'elle anjour dhuy dans les Eglises reformées n'est fondee dans l'Escriture que par analogie tirèe par consequence necessaire comme ils parleut qui au fond est un de mesme car ce qui est tiré par consequence necessaire de la St. Escriteure y est autand comme ce qui est en teâ—â—es expres Tout cecy est conforme aux articles 29 30. de confession de Foy au il est dict que nostre Seigneur a establic'este police governement dans l'Eglise par Pasteurs Sur veillants ou Anciens diacres que les urays Pasteurs en quelque lieu qu'ils soient ont le â—esme authoritè esgale puissance sâ—ubs nostre Seigneur l'Archi-pasteur grand Evesque des nos ames Act. 6.4 Ephes 4.11 1 Tim. 3.1 Tit. 1.5 Math. 20.26 18 2. 2 Cor. 1.27 1 Pet. 5.3 The Iudgement of the Church of France concerning Episcapacy and Independency extracted out of Letters written to Master Buchanan by some French Ministers 1. OUr Churches have ever believed and constantly taught that the Order of Bishops it not at any hand of Divine Right 2. If some Protestant Doctors have used this terme Divine it is with the same impropriety and abuse of Language that some of the Ancients called those Canons which their Fathers had made and which themselves could at any time change and abrogate Divine Canens 3. According to the Scripture Priest and Bishop point out but one and the same Christ howsoever in divers respects one of those names which seemes to be derived from their age or yeares denotes such a gravity as befits Christs Ministers and the other expresseth their Office that is to watch over the Flock which is common to them both 4 It is as cleare as the day that in Scripture Priest and Bishop mark out one and the same Charge for there were many Bishops in the same Town Phil. 1. and the very same persons are qualified indifferently both Priest and Bishop Acts 20.1 5. So as we take it to be the surest way to hold our selves close to that Apostolique simplicity that the Church of God be governed by Pastors Antients and Deacons 6. But we understand on all hands and the Writings of the Bishops themselves make it good that they have hither-to made a Body a part distinguished from other Postors likewise that they take an Authority upon them and a superiority over the other Pastors of the Church which they will needs have to be of Divine Right Likewise that they beleeve that they alone are the Representative Church of the Nation that they challenge to themselves the cognizance and absolute disposall of all the Affaires of importance that they exercise a dominion over their Brethren whom the Forme of their Discipline hath put in a kind of subjection unto them and treate the Pastors not as their Brethren and equalls by Divine Right but as Subjects and servants which being granted it cannot be avoided but they must be accounted as those that have exercised a kind of Tyranny in the House of God and maintained the arts of Antichristianisme 7. Wherefore many of our men considering the state of the Church of England which God had delivered from the Errours and the Idolatries of the Church of Rome how notwithstanding she still retained the Pompe of Hierarchy and Ceremonies had just cause to say that the Body of the great Whore was indeed taken away but that her Vestments and Apparrell still remained with her 8. We were much joyed when we understood that things were so well fitted and disposed toward an holy Reformation in England being well assured that the power which the Bishops had usurped and which till this present was given them ought to be entirely suppressed and abolished 9. But we are much afflicted that among them that put their hand to so holy and necessary a work there there are some that passe from one Extream to another willing that every particular Church be so absolute and soveraign that it depend not upon any other for its direction nor be obliged to give an account to other Churches of its Government 10. We conceive that this is not
sure at the rising of the Assembly to murmure at and condemne the Iudgements that were passed if either they were not to their good liking or that they found them not to be grounded upon such Reasons as themselves approved of 5. As to that that they permit any one whatsoever if he have the ability to Preach publickly in their Assemblies notwithstanding that he have not Orders This is one of the greatest Disorders that can possibly happen in the world This what is it other but to bring in all kinde of Fanatiques and Enthusiasts and to expose Christian Religion to be made a laughing-stock to the Enemies of Gods Truth And to make of the House of God which is an House of Order a Babell of Disorder and horrible Confusion It will serve them to little purpose to alleadge for themselves the Example of the Ancient Church in the Times of the Apostles for in those times all the faithfull had Extraordinary Graces as also the guift of Prophecie and yet for all that were those holy Prophets to stay till they were bidden to speake and untill such time as it was said to them as to St. Paul and Barnabas Men Brethren If you have any word of Exhortation speake on which was a kind of Vocation Now a daies when men have not such Infusions of Guifts but that they acquire the Sciences and abilities for Preaching by study and paines God powring forth his blessing upon their industry it were to mocke God and men to require that all men should Preach indifferently without any praevious Examen of their Guifts or the dexterity they have to divide the Word of God to Edification 6. As to that That many maintaine that every man ought to have liberty to make profession of whatsoever Religion himselfe thinkes best how bad soever it be provided that he attempt nothing against the State wherein he lives this is a Libertinisme not to be indured in the House of God and it is flatly against his Word For in the Old Testament it was not permitted to any to make profession of any other Religion save that which God himselfe had instituted And you know what God ordained against false Prophets that turne away the people from his service Deut. 13. As also in the New Testament how St. Paul wills us to take heed of such as make Divisions and raise scandalls against that Doctrin that we have learn't and that we turne away from them Rom. 16. And that if an Apostle or an Angell from Heaven preach another Gospell unto us then hath been preached that he be accursed Gal. 1. yea St. Iohn very sweetnesse and Charity it self will not at any hand that we receive into our houses no not that we so much as bid God speed to those that bring us not the Doctrin of the Gospell 7. As to that That they make no reckoning either of the Iudgement or Consent of other Reformed Churches but reject them as an humane Argument I see they have profited little in Saint Pauls Schoole whose Lesson is that we submit our selves one to another in the feare of God and that in giving honour we goe one before the other and that the spirits of the Prophets be subject to the Prophets God forbid we should ever place Gods Ordinances and the Ecclesiasticall Constitutions in the same ranke together Whatsoever God sayes should be unto us a Law inviolable But as for men we are to prove all things and to hold that which is good For as much as concernes the Foundation or Essence of Religion there is none but God alone that can ordain any thing in it But as to the Exteriour Order and Policy of the Church That wise Father of his Family is content to leave with us his Generall Word of direction That in his House all things be done decently and in order He leaves the particulars to the pious prudence of such as he hath called to the guidance and Government of his people It is their duty when they are met together in the name of the Lord to be earnest Suiters and Suppliants unto him that he will please to preside in the midst of them and put in their hearts to doe those things that shall be most expedient for his Glory and the Edification of his Children The Government of other Reformed Churches layes no absolute yoake upon us nor can it be propounded as any infallible Law But true it is it ought to be a Patterne and Example for our imitation if so be we finde no manifest repugnancies in it to the Word of God But if there be any that is resolved to be contentious hereabouts we have no such custome nor yet have the Churches of God 1 Cor. 2.16 We hold for certaine that there neither is nor ought to be any Office for teaching and governing the Church which should not have its foundation and ground in Gods Word And so the Office of Minister Pastor Bishop Ancient and Deacon are founded immediatly Formally and Expresly on the Word of God howsoever some there be that will needs have the Office of Ancients as it is now practised in the Reformed Churches to have no other ground at all in Scripture save onely by Analogy and as it is drawne thence by necessary Consequence as they speake which in conclusion is one and the same thing For that which is deduced by necessary Consequence from Scripture is every jot as much in Scripture as that what ever it is that is there in Expresse Termes All this is agreeable and conforme with 29. and 30. Articles of the Confession of Faith where it is said That our Lord hath established this Policy and Government in his Church viz. by Pastors Over-seers or Ancients and Deacons And that those that are true Pastors in what place soever they inhabit have the very same Authority and equall power under the Lord Iesus Christ the chiefe Pastor and Bishop of our soules Act. 6.4 Eph. 4.11 1 Tim. 3.1 Tit. 1.5 Matth. 20.26.18.2 2 Cor. 1.27 1 Pet. 5.3 Sentiment d'u grand Theologien de France Touchant l'Independence declarè en une Lettre addresseè a Mr. Buchanan VN mien amy homme vertueux craignant Dieu m'a adverti que quelques personnes trouvent mauvais l'ordre establi en nos Eglises par le quel les Consistoires sont subjects aux Colloques les Colloques aux Synodes Provinciaux les Provinciaux aux Nationaux Ils voudroient que chaque Consistoire eust une authoritè absolue qui ne dependist d'aucune assemblée superieure la dessus ce mien amy me demande quel est mou seutiment la chose est de telle nature de telle importance que je nay peu luy refuser ce qu'il requiert de moy Je dis donc que ceux qui font telles Propositions ne doivent estre creus si on suiuois leur advis il ne s'en pourroit ensuiure que le renversement de l'Eglise une
extreme confusion souvent advient que deux pasteurs d'une mesme Eglise s'entrequerellent divisent le troupeau en deux factions contraires En ce cas il faut par necessitè avoir recours a une compagnie puissance superieure que si l'Eglise nà qu'un Pasteur que ce Pasteur soit vitieux vive à 'une vie scandaleuse soit supporté par le Consistoire entier ou que le Consistoire soit divisé il n'y a point de remede a ce mal que par les Colloques Synodes ayants puissance de suspendre ou deposer un tel Pasteur n'y ayant qu'un Pasteur en ceste Eglise iceluy meritant d'estre depose qui est ce qui le deposera Les Anciens du Consistoire seuls prononceront ils contre luy sentence de deposition Que si quelcun du peuple est injustement suspendu de la Saincte Cene ou excommunié a qui aura il recours pour estre restabli a qui formera il ses plainctes si le Consistoire qui l'a injustement condamnè a une Authorité Independante irrefragable Que si une nouvelle Heresie s'espand que quelques Pasteurs Eglises en soyent infectées quel moyen d'obvier a un si grand mal que par un Synode qui puisse deposer les Pasteurs obstinés en leur erreur Insectants le troupeau sans le Synode de Dordrect l'Arminianisme sespandroit par tout le pays si chaque Consistoire eust esté absolu Independant il eust peu mespriser la decision du Synode en disant nous ne sommes subjects a aucun Synode avons une authorité absolue Independante L'es Synodes sont principalement occupès a ouyr les plainctes des Eglises particulieres a juger des appels si vous ostez cela aux Synodes ils nont plus rien a faire leur Convocation sera inutile Car aussi eu vain prononceroient ils des jugements dont l'Execution ne seroit en leur puissance Chasque Consistoireise gouvernezoit a sa fautasie comme si en un grand pays de chaque village on faisoit une Souverainetè Cela est vouloir introduire vn ordre qui depuis le temps des Apostres jusques a maintenant n'a jamais esté practiqué Il y a plusieurs petites Eglises Champestres dont le Consistoire est composè d'un Pasteur qui na pas beaucoup de capacité de quatre ou cinq paysans qui sont Ancicus de l'Eglise donner a on a une telle Eglise ou Consistoire une authoritè Independante ce Pasteur venant a mourir ees payisans auront ils le pouvoir d'èn choisir un autre ou de luy imposer les mains sont ls Juges suffisants de la capacitè d'un Ministre Que si a cause de l'affliction de l'Eglise il est besoin de celebrer un jeusue par toutes les Eglises du Royaume qui ordonnerace jusne qui assignera le jour S'il faut representer au Prince Souverain les plaintes de toutes les Eglises qui esce qui deputera qui est ce qui presentera les requestes de tout le corps des Eglises du Royaume Si pour quelques occasions survenues il est besoiug de changer quelque chose en la Discipline Ecclesiastique faire des nouveaux reglements qui obligent toutes les Eglises cela se pourra il faire par des Consistoires Independants nm subjects a aucun reglement general Bref faut tenir pour constant que la Dependance des Compagnies inferieures subjectes aux Superieures est le lien qui entretient l'Vnion de l'Eglise le quelestant couppê il ny auroit plus de correspondance on verroit une horrible confusion Nul ne peut estre Juge eu sa propre cause s'il y a de la contention entre deux Eglises Particulieres comme cela advient fort souvent pas une de ces Eglises ne peut estre Iuge faut avoir recours a quelque authorité superieure Ie ne veux croire que ces Independants ayent Intelligence avec les Adversaires que leur but soit soubs ombre de Reformation de nous jecter en vne confusion qui nous expose en risee a ceux qui nous sont contraires I'aime mieux croire qu'ils errent par faute d'experience de cognoissance de ce qui est possible ou profitable a l'Eglise de Dieu P. D. M. The Iudgement of a great Divine in France concerning Independency declared in a Letter directed to Master Buchanan A Friend of mine a vertuous man and fearing God has advertised me that certaine persons finde fault with the Order established in our Churches by the which the Consistories are subject unto Colloques and the Colloques unto Provinciall Synods and the Provinciall Synods unto Nationall Synods They would have every Consistory to have an absolute authority and not to depend upon any superiour Assembly My Friend askes me thereupon my judgement The thing is of such a nature and of such weight that I could not deny him his request I say then That those that make such Propositions ought not to be believed if men followed their advice there could nothing follow but a turning of the Church upside down and an utter confusion It fals out often that two Pastors of one and the same Church fall out amongst themselves and divide the flock into two contrary Factions in this case of necessity we must have recourse unto a Company and Power Superiour But if the Church have but one Pastor and he be a vicious man and of a scandalous life and be supported by the whole Consistory or that the Consistory be divided there is no remedie for this evil but by Colloques and Synods that have power to suspend and Depose such a Pastor There being but one Pastor in this Church and he deserving to be deposed who is he that shall depose him The Elders of the Consistorie alone Shall they pronounce Sentence of Deposition against him What if any one among the People be suspended from the holy Supper or excommunicated To whom shall he have his recourse to be received again into the Church And to whom shall he make his Complaint if the Consistorie which hath unjustly condemned him have an Independant and irrefragable Authority What if a new Heresic be sowen abroad and that certaine Pastors and Churches be infected with it what means is there to meet with such an evil but by a Synode that hath power to depose Pastors that are obstinate in their Error and infect the Flocks Had it not been for the Synod of Dordrecht Arminianisme had spread it self over the whole country If every Consistory had been Independant it had contemned the Decision of the Synod
saying We are not subject to any Synode We have an absolute and Independant Authority Synods are chiefly busied about hearing of the Complaints of particular Churches and to judge of Appellations If you deny that Power unto Synods they have no more to do and their Convocation shall be to no use for in vain should they pronounce Iudgements which were not in their power to put in Execution Every Consistory should governe it self after its own fancy as if in a great Country one should make of every Village a Soveraignty that were to introduce an Order which since the dayes of the Apostles was never practised untill this time There are many little Country Churches whereof the Consistory is composed of one Pastor who is of no deep understanding and of four or five Persons that are Elders of the Church shall we give to such a Church or Consistory an Independant Authority And that Pastor hapning to die these Persons shall they have power to choose another or give him Imposition of Hands Are they competent Judges of a Ministers sulficiency What if because of the Affliction of the Church it be necessary to Celebrate a Fast throughout all the Churches of the Kingdom who shall ordaine this Fast Who shall appoint the Day If the Complaints of all the Churches must be represented to the Soveraigne Prince who shall Depute Who shall present the Requests of the whole Body of the Churches of the Kingdom If for certain Emergent Occasions it be necessary to change something in the Discipline of the Church and to make new Ordinances to binde all the Churches can that be done by Independant Consistories not subject to any generall Rule Briefly we must hold constantly that the Dependence of Inferiour Companies being subject to Superious is the Band that entertains the Union of the Church which being cut asunder there should be no more Correspondence and we should see a horrible confusion No man can be Iudge in his own Cause If there be a strife betwixt two particular Churches as it fals out very often not one of these Churches can be Iudge They must addresse themselves to some superiour Authority I will not believe that these Independants have intelligence with the Adversaries and that their Aime is under colour of Reformation to cast us into a Confusion which might expose us to be laught at by those who are our Opposites I would rather believe that they erre for want of Experience and knowledge of that which is pessible and profitable for the Church of God Sentiment d'un grand Theologien de Hollande touchant l'Independence declarè en une Lettre addressée a Mr. Buchanan VN voyage que j'ay faict au nom de nostre Academie est cause du retardement de ma Responce a celle que vous m'aves faict la faveur de m'escrire Ie vous suis obligè des tesmoignages de vostre affection et vous prie de faire estat reciproquement de la mienne Ie ne vous seaures asses representer comme nous gemissons pour les confusions de vos Royaumes Ie souhaite avec passion que la Reformation de l'Eglise d'Escosse soit suivie de celle d'Angleterre et que vos Ordres aussi bien que vos Armées leur soient rendues salutaires ie ne hesite nullement ains crois que ceux qui veulent introduire l'Independ des Eglises introduiront l'Anarchie confusion et toutes sortes de licence a remplir les Chaires de Fanatiques vos Eglises de Schismes Ie ne doute point que nombre de personnes ne soient portées a ce parti de bon Zele ne croient bien faire Mais la consequence de ceste Indep ne se pouroit jamais suffisamment descouvrir qu'apres quelle auroit esté establie autant presque que vous auriez d'Eglises autant auriez vous dautel contre autels et l'un seroit pour Paul et l'autre pour Cephas le 3 pour Apollos Dieu vous garde de ces horribles confusions on veroit un beau mesnage si chaque Famille estoit Independ sans police et sans dependence d'un ordre public et que seroit ce del Eglise Iaurois mis la main a la plume pour en faire une dissertation estendue si je neusse estimé quil seroit plus a propos que ce jugement soit demandé a nostre faculte il auroit par a moyen plus de pards que procedent dun particulier Aoust 1. 1644. The Iudgement of a great Divine in Holland concerning Independency declared in a Letter directed to Master Buchanan Sir A Iourney that I was put upon by our University is the cause why I had not answered sooner those Letters you were pleased to write unto me I am much beholding to you for the testimony of your Affection and I pray you reciprocally to make account you have mine I cannot sufficiently represent unto you how much we take to heart the confusions of your Kingdom Learnestly wish that the Reformation of Scotland may be imitated by the Church of England and that your Church-Government as well as your Brotherly Assistance by Armes may be serviceable unto them I doubt nothing but firmely believe that they that would introduce Independency of Churches would bring in an Anarchie a confusion and all sorts of Licence to furnish all Pulpits with men of Fanatick Spirits as also your Churches with Schismes I make no question but many of them are carried to these opinions with a good meaning that they think therein they do wel But the dangerous consequence of such an Independence should it be established would discover more then we believe can ever sufficiently be discovered till it be established As many Altars should you then have erected one against another as you have Churches One Church would side it selfe with Paul another with Cephas a third with Apollos God preserve you from these horrid confusions you should see a sweet Oconomie if every particular family should once come to be Independant without any Policy or Dependance upon the publike and what then would become of the poor Church of God I should have been much larger in handling the point more accurately had I not thought it had been more expedient for you to have had the Iudgement of the Divines of this University jointly being that it would have carried more authority with it then possibly any thing can do that proceeds from a private man onely Quod foelix faustumque sit THe first period of this Book is a manifest untruth There is no such thing in all my Book as that my heart with discontent is rent in two pieces to hear the innocent bleatings of that wronged Lamb the Apologie So as I may here use your admirative Interrogation Is this the use men make of pressing Sermons Your following Injuries non sunt dignae irâ Caesaris I must be fain to beare with this Epidemicall Disease of you Independents and
a Syncategorema of my Observation viz. this where things are carried by Plurality of voyces which asserts nothing at all as all Logicians know but nothing to the whole Demand 11 Put the case that this Syncategorema were omitted yet this Interrogation should stand in its full force so as the Reader may see 1. That this Pamphleters ayme is not so much to answer as to elude this Demand 2. That the Ordinance has nothing against Plurality of voyces 3. That it justifies not your Apologists being members of the Assembly to publish Apologies as they have done 4 Much lesse doth it more then allow so much as they have done or if it doe it should consequently allow all such as have the gift of writing to fall upon you all and pay you soundly A.S. 2. Obser Whether in taking such resolutions they should not consequently resolve themselves to quit the Assembly and to appeare as Parties M.S. 1. Denyeth the Antecedent in the first consideration But A.S. has abundantly proved it 2. M.S. telleth us that he utterly disliketh my Consequent viz. that the five Ministers quit the Assembly and appeare as parties for then the worthy Commissioners of Scotland should likewise quit the Assembly for that they replyed to the Apologie A.S. 1. I know well ye utterly mislike my motion 2. Neither believe I that this Argument proceedeth of any great good-will ye have that the worthy Commissioners of Scotland should sit in the Assembly It may be ye wish them a faire wind to carry them home safe to their Countrey 3. I deny your Consequence for it appeareth not that they did reply to the Apologie neither name they the Apologists 4. And howbeit they had written against them yet should it not follow for they writ in defence of a Discipline already received in Protestant Churches whereunto the Parliament and Synod intends to conforme theirs Item of a Discipline already approved by the Church of England and no wayes condemned by any lawfull publick Authority either Civill or Ecclesiasticall 6. And against a new Sect never as yet received or approved in this Island 7. If that should follow it should likewise follow that all they who did write against Antinomians or in case any of the Divines of the Assembly should write against Anabaptists and other Hereticks who should be condemned by it that they in such a case should quit the Assembly but perchance you will deny the Consequence E. you must deny the Antecedent 8. Forraigne Churches have complained to the Assembly of your Apologie but not of the Reformation cleared and therefore the Synod is bound in conscience either to avow and make good the Apologie or to censure and punish the Authors of it condignly at least if it be minded to entertain Brotherly correspondence with them It is not needfull to fill up my paper in observing of all this mans impertinencies and absurdities this may suffice Only I am sorry that he should so indiscreetly defame his own Nation under pretext of praising of our Commissioners Sir neither will the Commissioners nor any Scots-man praise you for this their honour consisteth not of other mens dishonour and this is sufficient to make your Book to be condemned in quality of a Libell if good men pitty you not but whoever has to do with such Spirits as yours had need of much patience A.S. His third Consideration Whether such an inconsiderable number in so doing may not be refused by the parties as in competent Judges M.S. will needs have this Consideration to vanish upon his answer to the first and second A.S. To that I reply that since I have confirmed the two former followeth from them most necessarily A.S. 2. M.S. answers not this Consideration for that as he sayes he had formerly answered it the which is an handsome but an ordinary evasion when men are at a non-plus and know not what to say How should he have answered it considering that the Question was not as yet so much as propounded viz. in the two first Considerations For they onely shew that so small and inconsiderable a number should not oppose themselves to so great and grave an Assembly and that in case they doe it they must quit and renounce the office of Judges But now the third shewes that if they faile in this the Assembly ought to eject them from being any longer of her Body and take them for parties Wherein the difference of this from the two former Considerations is cleere and evident and consequently it is as cleete that M.S. has answered nothing at all But it seemes it is all one to him provided that he can escape And I wish he had done so throughout or rather that he had held his peace then to haue made semblances as though hee had answered and so hud-winked his Reader It had been fairer dealing by far not to have spoken at all then to have spoken so little to the purpose A.S. his fourth Consideration Whether this Apologeticall Narration was necessary when you found the Calumnies c. begin by your presence to scatter and vanish without speaking a word M.S. answers that these serene Spirits oh abominable flattery were the Beames to scatter these mysts But they begun onely as he sayes to scatter them and that therefore it was expedient that they should have written that Apologetick Narration to scatter them altogether A.S. Experience hath sufficiently shewen the contrary For their Writings were so farre from scattering those mists that they have encreased them rather and have evidenced it to all the world that the conceit that men had of their Opinions was not Calumnies Mistakes or mis-apprchensions as they would faine have it beleeved but an apprehension very well grounded and moreover they plainly shew that their opinions prove to be farre worse then ever wee thought And admit it should have been expedient they should have written at the time those mists began to scatter yet notwithstanding it should have been more expedient that they had written when the mists were at the thickest when there was no figne at all of scattering One would have thought it had been more seasonable that they had written whilest they were under the cloud then when they were now gotten out of it Whilst they were yet unjustified then when they were already justified I spare him in his sublime Conceptions and pass over his Proverb which however it may a little poore Rhyme in it has yet no reason and serves as little for the purpose he brings it as also in his Assinine Allusion of brayed or breathed A little after not content to have set upon me he accuses two learned Divines one an English man another Scottish that they have written to stirre up the people against the Independents A.S. In the same Consideration saith The honour the Parliament shewed you in calling you to be Members of the Assembly was sufficient enough to justifie your persons from all aspersions M.S. denies it and pretends that their
yet promiseth an Answer M.S. his first Answer is that the Five Ministers ayme at no separation but as their Brethren the Scots did from Prelaticall coaction A.S. If it be only from Prelaticall coaction wherefore separate they themselves from their Brethren the Scots their Sacramentall Communion and the Scots from theirs if they separate not themselves from us wherefore are they suitors for a Toleration or approbation of their Religion since ours is already tolerated and approved as appeareth in the French Italian and Spanish Churches in this Kingdome Neither are you compelled to be Actors in any thing against your Consciences as your Brethren were by Bishops M.S. He saith the Church from which the five Ministers would separate testifies a great desire to reforme Defects yet saith he those Defects are but pretended A.S. Our meaning is to reforme Defects if any there be such as we acknowledge to be in manners as amongst you also or in the administration of Discipline as may be amongst us all But as for any Defects in the principall parts of our Ecclesiasticall Discipline we see none as yet that we travell not to reforme but believe such as hee objects us in them to be rather pretended then Reall Neither can we or shall we judge them to be any other thing but pretended till he make it appeare that they are Reall Will He that we beleeve them to be Reall because that he only sayes so but it is not the first untruth has falne from his pen. M.S. He would have the Five Ministers quit the Assembly A.S. This M.S. supposes that this last Proposition crosseth my Supposition But they may stay in the Church to reforme Abuses if there be any really as it is pretended by the Independents and live out of the Assembly as many others who are no wayes their Inferiours Neither said I that I wished them to be out of the Assembly only I propounded a question whether in consequence of the publishing of their Apologie they should not resolve themselves to quit the Assembly Now courtcous and conscientious Reader be thou judge I pray thee whether this man hath answered any of my Questions yea or not which are all the main points here to be debated Quest I. Whether it had not been honester and fairer dealing to have added the Author and Licencer's Name to M.S. his Booke then to have omitted them I Affirme it 1. because it testifieth a greater sincerity especially in these Times 2. Because it makes it appear more probably to the world that it is not a Libel 3. And that it conteineth nothing against the Law 4. Because the Name of the Author giveth authority to the Book if he be either learned or honest and the omission thereof may cut off the Authority of it and bring discredit unto it especially when the Law for this effect ordaineth it to be added 5. Because when it is suppressed and the Book a Libell it giveth too much adoe to the Magistrate to find out the Author to censure and punish him condignly according to his demerits 6. Because the Holy Writers did so and if their Names be omitted in some Books we know not whether it was with their consent or whether they did not put to their names howbeit not in quality of Canonicall Scripture or peradventure it was because they were not the Authors but as it were Gods Secretaries or Scribes for the Holy Ghost dictated them what they had to write 7. Because it hindreth men from being deceived in their moneys for sundry times men because of specious Titles put before Books buy them and afterward find nothing worth their money 8. The adding of the name of the Author and of the Licencer with the Licence will hinder the common people to be deceived in reading of hereticall and unsound in stead of Orthodox and sound Books So that this being confidered this Author should have done better that he had added his name and the Licence to his Book Quest II. Whether Mr. Cranford might not justly Licence A.S. his Consid and Answer to the Libell c. I Susteine the first part of the Question and deny the second As for the first it is evident 1. Because it is conformed to Gods word as we shall see hereafter 2. Because that Answer is nothing else but an Apologie for the Discipline of the Reformed Churches 3. Because it containeth nothing contrary to the Doctrine of the Church of England or any other true Reformed Churches only it hath some new Sectaries for Enemies 4. Because the Church of England evermore entertained Union with the Reformed Churches that were ruled by that Discipline and they refused not one another to the Communion of the Sacraments 5. Because that a Bishop and the rest of the Commissioners from England at the Synod of Dordrecht approved that Discipline in the name of the Church of England 6. Because in England it selfe it hath been evermore approved by the King and Parliament who granted the Exercise thereof unto the French Dutch Italian and Spanish Churches in this very City of London and sundry other parts of this Kingdome 7. At this present Episcopall Government being put down it standeth by Law approved both by State and Church as conforme unto Gods word 8. The Kings Majesty likewise by consent of Parliament Licenced it in Scotland The second part of the Question may be proved by the contrary Arguments 1. Because it maintaineth a Discipline that is not conforme to Gods word which hath not one word of particular Churches Independent one from another of particular Church-Covenants distinct from that of Grace of not Baptizing Christians Children of not admission of Faithfull men and women who are without Scandall unto the Lords Table c. 2. Because the Discipline it maintaineth is repugnant to all other Disciplines of all other reformed yea of all Christian Churches 3. It containeth many things contrary to the Doctrine of the Church of England as they confesse themselves 4. Because the Church of England never entertained any Union or Communion with any Church ruled by that Discipline 5. No Commissioners from England ever approved it 6. It hath never been received in England by King or Parliament 7. It hath never been put up here nor standeth here Legally as the other And therefore the first Legally might have been Licenced and the other could not be Licenced QUEST 3. Whether any man may not state and determine Questions agitated in Synods before the Synods Determination M. S. BLames me mightily for stating some Questions now in agitation in the Synod To the contrary I conceive that herein I have done nothing amisse But for the better stating and determining of this Question we must observe 1. That there are two sorts of Questions some that are already determined in Gods Word and his Church also Others that are not 2. That there are some Determinations by publick Authority as Lawes Statutes Ecclesiasticall Canons c. and others particular proceeding
of private or particular mens Iudgements The first binds and obliges them who are subject unto them the second cannot oblige any man to obedience and so I say 1. That in Questions already determined in Gods Word by his Church every man may determine as God and the Church have determined 1. Because God obliges us to determine our judgements according to the Determinations of his Word especially in things that are necessary to Salvation for the very publication of the Gospell obligeth us to assent 2. If every man determineth not according to Gods Word he sinneth 3. If particular men determine not their Iudgement according to Gods Word and because the thing beleeved is conforme to Gods Word it is not an Act of Divine Faith In these Determinations according to the Word I say that the Church Determination is publick 1. Because God hath endowed her with publick Authority to determine according to the Determination of his Word 2. Because she Iudges not by private authority as private men 3. Because Suspension from the Lords Table c. are not Acts of private but of publick Iudgement and authority This Authority of the Church is not Imperiall or Magisteriall but Ministeriall because the Ministers of the Church be nothing else but Gods Ministers or Servants and not Lords in the Church The Determinations and Iudgements of particular Persons are only particular and a Iudgement of Discretion 1. Because they proceed not from publick but from private and particular persons even when they proceed from a Minister 2. Because they have not publick authority to oblige Congregations but themselves alone 3. Their principall and intrinsecall ayme is not to be directions for others but for themselves and they doe not helpe to direct others in particular This M. S. objecteth that if A. S. determine it he anticipates upon the Assemblies Iudgement but that he must not doe so Answ I deny the Consequence 1. for the Assemblies Iudgement is publick and mine particular 2. It is already Iudged by the Church of this Kingdom that Presbyterian Discipline is not contrary to Gods Word for if it were it had never permitted it to be practised or approved in England as I have already shewed 2. To the Minor I answer That either by anticipating upon the Synods Iudgement he understandeth an anticipation by a publick Iudgement and that is impossible to me for my Iudgement is not publick but particular or by a particular Iudgement and then it is not properly an Anticipation or if he will needs have it to be so I answer that if I or any other Christian have learned any truth in Gods Word we are all bound to determine our particular Iudgements according to it Neither can the long Examination of businesses in Synods which proceedeth from Hereticks Sectaries and others their crafts malice or infirmities hinder us from determining the truths according to our particular Iudgements for if it could then whensoever any Heretick should start up and dogmatize against the first Articles of our Faith denying Gods Infinity Simplicity Perfection Eternity Immutability his Wisdome Decrees Power or Providence and his opinion were to be examined in a Synod we must begin to doubt and suspend our Iudgements as so many Pyrrhonians about all those points which already we beleeved by Faith and stand gaping for some new Determination of the Articles of our faith from Synods And so Synods should be most pernicious in making us to lose our Faith which before we had In a word we have received already the Determination and Resolution of the Independents questions in Gods Word in other Protestant Churches and the approbation of those Determinations here by the Church of England And the Discussion of them in the Synod is not to change Gods Ordinance but to give contentment unto weake Consciences if they can receive it Again If this Argument be strong I retort it against his Sect If the Quinque Ecclesian Ministers M. S. and C. C. determine these Questions as they doe in their printed Bookes here and Sermons also as we are credibly informed they also anticipate upon the Assemblies Iudgement But the First is true Ergo so must the Second also be Again Either this man with the rest of the Sectaries are minded to acquiesce to the Determination of the Synod or not If the first it is well it is more then I expect of them I pray God they deceive me if not what needeth he to sight so much for the Determination of the Synod which he is determined not to stand unto would not this seeme to be said in derifion of the Synod 2. Obj. A. S. In determining the Question taketh it out of the Assemblies hands Answ I deny the Consequence for it is in their hands by way of publick Authority publicke Iudgement and publicke Determination Now A. S. or any other particular Determination taketh not away the publick and Authoritative Determination Iudgement or Authority As for the stating of the Question this man will not permit me and consequently no particular man so much as to state it in particular and that for the same reason But if we may according to our particular Iudgement Determine it how much more may we state it since it can no waiess be Determined unlesse first it be stated Can the Synods stating and Determining the question free us of the obligation whereby we are bound to state it and Determine it according to Gods Word QUEST 4. Whether the Quinqu ' Ecclesian Ministers publish this their Apologeticall Narration seasonably yea or not against M. S. p. 24 25. c. that affirmes it I Maintaine the Negative part of the Question his Reasons are 1. Because before the publication thereof the Calumnies mistakes misapprehensions of their Opinions and many of those mists that were gathered about them or rather cast upon their Persons in their absence began by their presence againe and the blessing of God upon them in a great measure to scatter and vanish without speaking a word for themselves and cause as the five Ministers say in their Apologeticall Narration M. S. p. 24. of his Booke Answereth 1. That that scattering of mists doth but relate to the people and onely to some of them viz. Those that professe or pretend the power of godlinesse as appeareth by the precedent period A. S. Reply 1. The precedent period hath no relation to this for it endeth with a full point 2. It is not the precedent period that should interpret the subsequent but rather the subsequent that should serve for interpretation to the precedent unlesse yee put the Explication before the Text. 3. Because it is said absolutely 4. They themselves beleeve now at this present that this relateth to others as yee may see p. 15. where they speak of those who incited the State not to allow them a peaceable practise of their Conscience and of some others who did write Bookes against them whom they accuse also of mis-apprehensions and mistakes
written to all Yet was it not written to all in the same fashion but to every one according to his Vocation as the Kings Edicts viz. To some meerly to be obeyed by them To others that have Jurisdiction as to inferiour Judicatories to obey them and to cause them to be obeyed by others Ob. They prove it from this Chapter v. 3. because S. Paul and Barnabas being come back from Jerusalem to Antioch they gathered the multitude and delivered the Epistle written from the Apostles c. A. I answer 1. That the text sayes not that they delivered the Epistle to the Multitude but when they had gathered the Multitude they delivered the Epist Ob. But it is said v. 31. when the Multitude had read the Epistle they rejoyced A. I answer it is not said that the Multitude had read the Epistle but that the Apostles delivered it which when they had read This they may signifie some other then the Multitude 1. Because it is not the custome in any Assembly that all the Multitude read Epistles 2. Neither is it possible without very great confusion Ob. But how could the People then rejoyce for the consolation A. 1. Because the Letter was read in their presence by the Church-Officers A. 2. But put the case that the Letter was read by the People it could not be till after it had been read in the Representative Church or by the Elders and after that it had been published A. 3. Howbeit it had been received and read by the People or to the People yet was not that an Act of Ecclesiasticall Jurisdiction but of obedience of an inferiour Ecclesiasticall Judicatorie to a Superiour A. 4. It might have been read to all the People yea to Children and women that were to obey And yet it follows not presently that they had Ecclesiasticall Jurisdiction A. 5. It might have been read to all or by all Tanque subjecto Denominationis Et ut quod But not tanquam subjecto ut quo as when the whole Kingdome is that which is named rich or potent howbeit their Riches and Power be not in every man but in a few So a man is said to be judged by the Kingdome who is only judged by the Kings Counsell or by the Parliament or Representative Kingdome and neverthelesse what the Parliament does is said to be done by the Reall Kingdome or it may belong to the whole Body but not wholly but to every part according to the exigence thereof Ob. They say that 1 Cor. 5. and 2 Cor. 2. The Apostle commands all the People to Excommunicate the incestuous man when they were gathered together and after his repentance to receive him to the peace of the Church againe A. We deny that the Apostle gives any such Power to the People or promiscuous multitude by that passage but only to Church-Officers that represents the Church Inst But they prove it on this manner They among whom the Fornicator was that were puffed up when they should have sorrowed and from out of the midst of whom he was to be put who had done that thing Item They who had to purge out the old leaven that were not to company with Fornicators Covetous men Drunkards c. received Power to judge and to Excommunicate that incestuous man But the Fornicator was not amongst the Elders alone neither were they alone puffed up c. E. He was not to be judged by them alone but by the Church with them though governed by them A. 1. This Argument failes mightily in forme 1. Because it containes two or three Conclusions viz. 1. He was not to be judged by them alone 2. Hee was to be judged by the Church with them 3. He was to be judged by the Church governed by them 2. This Syllogisme is either Categoricall and so failes because of the Assumption Negative in the first Figure or Conditionall because of the Major Relative and so it failes because it destroyes the Antecedent in the Assumption A. 2. It failes in Matter For the first Proposition being taken Universally is false because the Fornicator was among Women and Youths c. who were puffed up c. and yet our Brethren grant that they had not power to Voyce or to Excommunicate 2. Because 2. Cor. 2. v. 6. This punishment is said to be inflicted by many and not by all for many are opposite to all as ye may see in Arist. 1. Top. c. 1. sect 7. 3. Because in the Text there is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as Beza observes which is more then 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as others observes it is only the greater part in number as in that passage of Arist 1 Top. 1. sect 7. but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as those that are greater in dignitie which are but few viz. the Church-Officers that rule the Church as Beza observes upon this place A. 3. That howbeit this be said and written to them all Yet is it not said to them all alwayes but according as they were capable to obey Now some were capable to obey by Judiciall Power as the Representative Church in Excommunicating him and so binding themselves and others by Authority to quit his company Others only as private Persons or Christians in obeying the Sentence of the Representative Church And so this was said and commanded to private Christians But they Reply As it was not enjoyn'd the Levites and Elders alone in Israel to purge out of their Houses the materiall Leaven but it belonged to the People also so is it in the Spirituall Leaven A. This we grant that it was the duty of every Israelite by obedience as he was a Private person to put away the Materiall Leaven out of his own house And so it is every private Christians duty to put away the Spirituall Leaven But neither among the Israelites had every private or particular man a publick Authority and Jurisdiction to put it away out of his own and all other Houses nor among Christians to put away Spirituall Leaven Every particular man in his own house may command but not in another mans without publick Authority They bring another Text. 1. Tim. 5.20 Those who sin rebuke publikely that others also may feare But what inferre ye from hence E. Every one of the People have Ecclesiasticall Jurisdiction to rebuke publickly A. Wee deny the Consequence 1. For this is said to Timothy who was a Pastor and an Evangelist and not to every one of the People 2. Because every one of the People hath not the gift to robuke publikely at least pertinently or 3. If some of them meddle with this charge I thinke they will deserve more to be rebuked themselves then he who is rebuked by them 4. If this belong to every one of the People E. That which is said Cap. 4. v. 11. These things command and teach v. 12. Let no man despise thy youth v. 14. Neglect not the
gift that is in thee which was given thee by Prophesie with the laying on of the hands of the Presbytery Item That which is said c. 5. v. 21.22 About laying on of hands and drinking of wine But all this should be ridiculous and superfluous The truth is that here as in other Epistles many Duties are commanded but not all to all but some to Publick persons as to Pastours to Church-Rulers Some to particular Persons And others are common to all And this here is commanded to Timothy a Pastour and in his name to all other Pastours as the same common Dutie of them all After Scripture they bring Reason but against both Scripture and Reason 1. VVhat concerneth all ought to be done by the consent of all But the Government of the Church concernes all E. A. If by the word Consent bee here meant Formall and Actuall explicit Consent it is false 1. Because our Brethren crave not the consent of VVomen and young Men and yet the Preaching of Gods word the Administration of the Sacraments and the Government of the Church concernes them all 2. Because scarsly is it possible or at least it falls rarely out that every one whom every Act of Ecclesiasticall Government concernes consents thereunto for Voyces and suffrages sometimes are divided yea among our Brethren in their voycing So that this is against themselves 3. In our Churches it is done by the consent of all either Formall or Virtuall since our Ecclesisticall Discipline and Government is established by all and our Church Rulers have the Power to rule according to Gods word by consent of the People so far forth as they actually consent thereunto or contradict it not 4. Either they understand here the generall Forme of Government and the power of Jurisdiction or the exercise thereof in actuall judging or the execution thereof after the matter is judged which they will to be done with the consent of all The first is established by God without our consent as they avow The second we deny it for in the Politicall Government the Judges doe Voyce and judge without the consent of all whom it concerneth As for the third if it concerne all particularly as Excommunication then it is published and if none contradict the Judgement they are thought to consent at least interpretativè since they contradict it not or if any man dissent his Reasons are to be heard which if they be just the proceeding is to be hindred if not he is to rest contented according to Gods word And if after sufficient satisfaction he acquiesces not he is to be punished according to the quality of his Fault Ob. If your Ecclesiasticall Senate judge alone as the Representative Church as ye call it then must it judge according to the Judgement of the People or Reall Church otherwise it shall no more represent the People or the whole Congregation then an Assent represents a Dissent or Black represents White But that can it not unlesse it know the Judgement of the People which cannot be known but by their Voycing and hearing of them E. R. I answer 1. to the Major it must be conforme to their actuall Judgement formall I deny it for the reason here alleadged to their vertuall Judgement I grant it for they professe actually that they will follow Gods word wherein vertually is conteined and they may be deduce if they will that the Representative Church judges not according to their erronious formall and actuall judgement and so the Assumption is false R. 2. To their actuall Judgement whatsoever it be I deny it To that whereby they will judge truly according to Gods word I grant it and then the Assumption is false R. 3. To all their Judgement I deny the Major for it is impossible to follow the Judgement contradictory of divers Persons or those of one man which actually and formally or virtually may be contradictory to themselves R. 4. I answer the Representative Church must judge according to the actuall Judgement of the Reall Church or People it is false For what if the People be infected with Heresie Shall the Ministers and Rulers of the Church in that case become Hereticks or judge in favour of Hereticks according to the Judgement Such as it should be according to Gods word it is true for the Representative Church is not so called as if it represented the Churches Judgement such as it is but such as it should be according to Gods word that rules them both yea if that should represent this actuall Judgement it should doe more then 20. divers Judgements which oftentimes are to be found amongst the People upon one subject And so we deny the Assumption of the Syllogisme To the confirmation thereof I answer that it should no more represent their actuall Judgement I grant it but it should represent their Potentiall Judgement such as they are bound to have howsoever their actuall Judgements be contradictory Ob. But what if the Judgement of your Ecclesiasticall Senate or Representative Church be wrong and that of the Reall Church sound A. That Case is extraordinary in respect of the order established in Gods Church for when it is said Tell it unto the Church and if hee heare not the Church c. It is supposed that the Church will judge the judgements of the Lord or according to his Law neither hath Shee any other order from God but in that extraordinarie Case supposed I answer that neither the People nor any particular man is bound to obey the Representative Church but every one hath power of God to contest lawfully the Judgement of the Representative Church and Shee is bound to admit them in their contestations and to heare them according to the Scripture and to amend their Judgement And if all the Church or the greater part of the Reall Church or Congregation oppose it selfe to their Judgement it cannot stand nor be put in execution yea I dare say that the Representative Church shewing her selfe pertinacious in her errour after sufficient conviction or refusing to heare her conviction is really Schismaticall or Hereticall according to the matter contested in Gods account And howsoever particular men cannot right themselves but are bound to suffer injustice so long as they stay in such Churches since they are not Ecclesiasticall Judges or to retire themselves out of the societie of such Oppressors to the end they may more easily defend themselves neverthelesse the Collective Body of the Reall Church or the greater part thereof if it have the Abilitie is bound to refute them to make them ashamed yea to contemne their Judgement and by all lawfull meanes oppresse such Oppressors And this is the Doctrine of our first Reformers oppressed by the Roman Antichristianisme against Papists which holds also in Reformed Churches For it is all one to me to find Antichristian Tyranny at Rome or at Edinburgh London Paris or Amsterdam It is not the place but Antichristian Tyranny or Doctrine that makes an Antichrist And to be quit with them here I aske againe what if the Judgement of the Consistorie be right and that of the People which ordinarily falls out wrong or if the Judgement of the greater part of the People be wrong and that of the lesser part right what then is to be done or followed Here they shall find themselves in no lesse straights then they think to draw us unto Ob. They say it is a thing never heard nor seene in any Kingdome of the world or in any Ecclesiasticall Judicatorie before Calvin and Beza that all the People should be secretly as it were in a Chamber of Meditation judged out of all mens presence by six or ten Ecclesiasticall Persons A. They that say so have not seen nor heard much of that which passes in the Christian world it is a thing very ordinary to see some civill Causes in civill Judicatories Pleaded with the doors shut by the consent of the Parties yea sometimes by the will of the Judges 2. And I would pray them to go no farther to tell me if every man hath libertie to enter in at the Parliament here at home They cannot deny but that the door is kept close and that ordinarily only the Members of the House have entry 3. And neverthelesse if the Parties desire to plead their Causes in the presence of so many as may enter I doubt not but the Reformed Church will grant it them yea there is an Act of the French Discipline to that purpose commanding that the Parties desiring their Causes to be discussed openly the doores cast open it should be granted Yea wee maintain that in such Cases when parties complaine of such secret Ecclesiasticall oppression the Church is bound by law and Conscience to proceed publickly and to justifie to the world her Proceedings otherwise shee is no wayes to be believed And this Argument I had willingly passed over if it had not been urged against me and that I had beene prayed to answer it by some of our Brethren that thought it so strong that it could not be answered But to answer ad hominem may not such faults fall out amongst them that object this Argument as we have Examples of it Our Question is not so much what is done as what should be done How to establish a Law against Abuses in the Churches and not How men abuse their owne Authoritie FINIS