without the Church If it be replied No because that Church did implicitly consent in yeelding their Elders for members of that Presbytery We reply That if either your publick Law constrains that Church upon penalty Invitum dicitur quod quis vel per ignorantiam admittit Arist Eth. l. 3. c. 1. Kecker Praecog Syst Eth. against their light to suffer their Elders to fit in the Classicall Presbytery then that Church doth not freely consent or if that Church without constraint doth consent for want of light as it must be supposed if a Classis upon debate be found to be besides the word this ignorant act of that Church is an unwilling or involuntary act and so no free consent And so the Classis according to A. S. his distinction is like a Magistrate which is a Bishop without and about that Church But good A. S. we know it is an easie matter to distinguish the Magistrate into such an executive coercitive externall power as you speake of but we would fain see you demonstrate him into it and then A. S. and M. S. should be no more two but one S. We know not how to transform distinctions into demonstrations His second Distinction is of the Subject of this power the Magistrate whom he makes two-fold truly Christian and not truly Christian But 1. I would faine know by what Touchstone A. S. will try his gold in this case I mean judge of the truth of Christianitie in a Magistrate It appeares from page 50. of his discourse that he hath no mind to grant his truth of Christianity unto a Magistrate that is either Lutheran Anabaptist Socinian or Papist Any of these misprisions in Christianity are as sufficient in A. S. his judgement as in ours to keep the sword of that power we speake of out of the Magistrates hand And as for a Magistrate whose judgement shall be infected perfected reason and truth would say with Apologisme or the great hatred of his soule independencie I make no question but he in the Comique terme should bee exclusissimus from this capacitie or right above all the rest But let us goe on with the man in the termes of his own addresse to the Apologists Sect. 13. in the same place If he saith that by a Magistrate truly Christian he understand an orthodox Magistrate what if he had one or two errors would he yet permit him to be orthodox and truly Christian or not Till A. S. here specifies Seermones generales non movent his own shall make use of my reason to beleeve that by a Magistrate truly Christian A. S. onely mean a Magistrate who in his judgement is Presbyteriall and that this qualification of Presbyterialisme and truth of Christianitie in a Magistrate are against all contradictions and counter-poysings whatsoever termini aequipollentes in his Logique And if this be his meaning the king to be sure hath none of his power as yet in actu exercito and jure in re nor hath the Parliament at least for ought A. S. or the kingdom knoweth any whit more of it then the King And whatsoever it hath done hitherto by any executive coercive externall power about the Church or Church-affairs in which kinde it hath done very much depends as touching the validity and justifiableness of it upon this supposition that it Presbyterializeth Whence it followeth that he that cannot or doth not believe that the Parliament is of a Classique inclination cannot with the leave of A. S. his distinction judge them to have done lawfully or warrantably any thing that they have done hitherto about or for the Church The truth is that till A. S. will please to define what manner of Magistrate hee must be that shall pass the test of his distinction for truly Christian wee are constrained to suspend our bounty in conferring that executive coercive externall power about the Church upon any man Nor do I make much question but that wee shall have twenty Distinctions more before we shall obtain that Definition But of all the three distinctions here upon the stage Sect. 14. the best dancer is yet behind This Power or Authority saith he belongs actually and in effect in actu exercito jure in re it 's very long me thinks ere wee hear to whom it belongs to true Christian Magistrates but to others potentially in actu signato jure in rem only untill they become truly Christian 1. Though I have many times heard of the distinction in actu exercito in actu signato yet I never heard of any thing belonging to a person in actu exercito but that belonged to him and that per prius in actu signato Hee to whom the principle or power of acting doth not belong cannot stand ingaged for the exercise or acting of such a power 2. My soul longs for the Summer fruit of a good reason from A. S. Sect. 15. why any power about the Church and for the Church should not belong actually and in effect in actu exercito jure in re and with as many other proper unproper necessary unnecessary sober ridiculous expressions as he pleaseth as well to a Magistrate not yet truly Christian as to him that is such Hath not an Heathen or Heterodox Magistrate a lawfulness of power to do presently this day this hour to morrow and so forth toties quoties as much good to and for the Church or Churches of Christ within his jurisdiction or dominion as he could have if he were truly Christian Do acts of justice bounty grace towards the Churches of Christ any whit more defile a Magistrate how far from truly Christian soever then acts of the same nature performed unto his other subjects The Kings and those that were in authority in Pauls dayes were generally all the kings without exception far from being truly Christian and yet was it not lawfull for them to interpose with their Authority or Power that the Churches of Christ in their dominions might lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty If not then was that exhortation of his 1 Tim. 2.2 to be laid up in Lavender for some hundreds of yeers after it was given or else the benefit and blessing the obtaining whereof by prayer is made the ground of the exhortation must have been made over in the intentions of those that had so prayed unto their posterities after many generations A. S. may choose which of the two hee will believe for my part I shall not be his corrivall in either Yee have heard A. S. his Distinctions for a coercive power about the Church in a Civill Magistrate Demonstrationes autem ubi But where are his proofs Quas non invenio usquam esse puto nusquam What I finde not any where I believe to be no where I have searched Sect. 16. and that somewhat narrowly throughout the whole volume of his Discourse to finde something that with any indulgence of imagination might be
the Apologists p. 4. that you saw them no wayes minded to submit themselves in these matters of conscience to the desires of the Parliament I verily beleeve that did their judgements depend upon their wills as it seems yours doe they would have been as freely willing to have submitted in all things unto the desires of the Paâ—liament as you are But 6. If our wills be weak Sect. 8. and thereby are hindred from seeing that goodly vision of Presbyterian Government in the practice of the Jewish Church which you see what doe you contribute or afford us towards the healing and strengthening of them Nay doe you not rather occasion that which is weak in this kind to be quite turned out of the way For when you tell us as you doe pag. 13. 1. that the adaequate end of your Presbyteriall government is the externall peace of the Church And 2. that the power thereof consists first in the creation suspension and deposition of Church-officers secondly in determining matters of Doctrine thirdly in making Ecclesiasticall lawes concerning things indifferent c. all which you tell us on a heap pag. 42. you both make us very loth and unwilling to find your government there and withall very confident that there it is not to be found For First Sect. 9. was the adaequate end of the government of that Church the externall peace of the Church Had it nothing in designe for the spirituall good for the edification of the members of it in knowledge faith and holinesse Was the power of the high Priest given him only to keep the Church in externall peace I thought that to provide for the externall peace of the Church had rather appertained to the civill Magistrate and government then to the Ecclesiastick and it is the Apostle himself that thus thoughteth me 1 Tim. 2.2 where he enjoyneth that supplications prayers c. be made for Kings and all that are in authority that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godlinesse and honesty Secondly neither doe I find in the practise of that Church any power given to the combined rulers and governours thereof for the creation suspension deposition of Church-officers I read of the deposition of a Church-officer and no mean one neither by the Civill Magistrate 1. King 2.27 So Solomon cast out Abiathar from being Priest unto the Lord c. but of any such deposition by the combined rulers of that Church I remember not that I have read But 3. As for any power of determining matters of Doctrine Sect. 10. this is further out of my ken in the practice of that Church then any thing else I know not well what A. S. means by his phrase of Determining matters of Doctrine but in my notion and in the Grammaticall and proper sense of the word Determine the claim of such a power riseth up as a high partition-wall between me and his Government If by a power of determining matters of doctrine he meanes nothing else but a liberty or ability of discussing and arguing such matters and of recommending the issues and results of such discussions unto the Churches as consonant in their judgements to the truth with a proposall of their desires unto the Churches to consider well of them and to embrace them if they can so judge and conceive of them I have nothing to oppose against this power But if by his power to determine matters of Religion he means a power of concluding or defining what men shall be bound in conscience to receive and beleeve for truth and shal be look'd upon as sinning in case they doe it not whether they see sufficient ground for what is so concluded and obtruded upon them or not which I partly beleeve to be A. S. his sense I am sure is the proper sense of the word such a power is and I think ever will bee the first-born of the abhorrings of my soul I confesse I cannot be over-confident that A.S. intends the residence of such a power as this in his Presbyterian Assemblies partly because he speakes somewhat like a man in this behalfe elsewhere supposing it to be safe even for a few men to dissent from all the world Paget Defence of Church government pag. 29. in case they have very strong reasons for their dissent pag. 22. and requires no subjection in particular Congregations unto the judgment of Senats or Assemblies but according to Gods word pag. 28. I trust he means so apprehended by the congregation without this there is no subjection according to Gods word And again pag. 68. acknowledgeth it as an undoubted maxime that the church hath no absolute power in her judgments c. with many savoury expressions in this kind partly also because I find this indulgence generally subscribed with Presbyterian pens That the authority which Classes and Synods exercise is not absolute nor their Decrees held to be infallible but to be examined by the word of God and not to be received further then they do agree bâ—rewith And yet on the other hand I confesse that I cannot conceive or comprehend how A.S. his government can hold up her head like her selfe if this Iron-mace be taken out of her hand For my part if this one Article of a liberty to wave Presbyteriall Injunctions and Decisions in case of a non liquet from the word of God to him to whom they are tendered will bee but assented unto and candidly kept and performed it would be the best Mediator I know to reconcile my thoughts and judgement to it 4. Nor can I in the practice of the Jewish Church Sect. 13. find either vola or vestigium of a power granted unto the Rulers thereof to make Ecclesiasticall laws concerning things indifferent I rather find a prohibition served upon them for making any such laws Ye shall put nothing unto the word which I command you nor shall you take ought therefrom c. Deut. 4.2 So again Chap. 12.32 If A. S. can but produce one example of any such Law or Constitution made by them he shall be a good benefactor to the penury of my notions and in consideration thereof I will bestow upon him a dashing out of this peece of his charge 5. And lastly Sect. 12. in the practice of the Jewish Church the Prelaticall Schoole sees a vision or platforme of her government also And A.S. by your leave the High-Priest as well in his Authoritie as in his robes and holy accoutrements did farre more plausibly sympathize with Metropoliticall state and greatnesse then with Presbyteriall For my part I am not able to discern in all the practice of the Jewish Church from the one end of it unto the other any peece straine or veine of such a patterne as A. S. speaks of Surely the vision is so condition'd as not to be seen but upon Presbyterian ground The man did wisely in granting that he had no formall or expresse patterne for his government either
be lawfull to cut A. S. a syllable shorter power is which the man with both hands and an importune bounty will needs bestow upon the Civill Magistrate 2 By what authority and upon what grounds he doth it For the first hee describes and states this power after this manner pag. 6. The Parliament pretends no Directive power in matters of Religion nor any executive power that is intrinsecall to the Church but only an executive coercitive and externall power which is not in but about the Church and for the Church whereby it compelleth refractory men to obey the Church And this authority belongs actually and in effect in actu exercito as they say to true Christian Magistrates but to others potentially in actufignato and jure in rem only till they become true Christians c. In this description the man is to me a Barbarian his own phrase to the Apologists in the word Church Sect. 3. I have bestowed thoughts more then a few to be partners with him in his notion of the word but quanto plus cogito co minus capio For shame A. S. out with the beam of obscurity from your own eye before you tiffle again to pull the moat of obscurity out of your brothers eye A man in reason would think that the same word being used four or five times and that without the least intimation of any variety or difference of signification almost within the compasse of so many lines were still meant and to be taken in one and the same sense If so then ha with you The Parliament by that coercitive power which you are pleased here to bestow upon it by way of compensation for that directive power which you take from it compelleth say you refractory men to obey the Church I presume that by the Church here you do not mean all the particular Churches and Congregations in the kingdome in the folio of their respective members but in the deoimo sexto of their Synod representative Assembly If you take the word in the former sense you only say that the Parliament hath power to compell the refractory to obey all the particular Churches with their severall members in the Kingdome which is a sense I conceive at as much defiance with your ends as with your and our understandings If you take it in the latter which I doubt not but is your beloved sense then your meaning is that the use and intent of that executive coercive power in matters of Religion which you put into the Parliaments hands is to compell the kingdome in case it be refractory or tot quot to obey the Presbyterie and Presbyteriall assemblies in all their Canons Determinations and Decrees whatsoever without bail or mainprise without mercy or compassion whether a man findes sap sense savour reason or Religion in them or no. But yet secondly Sect. 4. I know not well how you should mean the Church contracted in her Grand Presbyterie or Generall Assembly neither first because you affirm in this coercive power in the Parliament to be not in but about the Church and for the Church And I doubt your meaning is not that the Parliament should either only or chiefly work or act with this their coercive power upon your Ecclesiastique Assemblies to restrain and keep them within compass though I confess if it should move only or chiefly in this sphere it would be more for the Church i. for the good and benefit of the Church in generall then to suffer such assemblies to fit and impose oaths upon men to obey their acts orders and decrees which you tell us glorying in your shame pag. 42. is done in your Presbyteriall Government and to punish or crush those that shall have more conscience then to inslave themselves unto them in such a way And 2. if by Church you should here mean the Church representative as it is more commonly then properly called in her generall Assembly you would be a little more open then I conceive will well stand with your principles in such cases For then your meaning is plainly this That the Parliament hath that executive coercive power which you ascribe to it not for the Church i. the benefit of the Saints and servants of God throughout the kingdome but for the benefit and behoof of the Ecclefiastique Presbyteries and Assemblies only Now however I can easily believe that thus you would have it yet I conceive it somewhat eccentricall to your other motions to profess it And yet 3. when you immediately adde that in vertue of this authority when parties pretend to be effended by the Church or if the Church judge any thing amiss hee the civill Magistrate may command the Church to revise and examine its judgement c. You must needs mean your transcendent Church of Presbyters otherwise you should prevaricate and grant a judiciary power to particular Congregations 4. And lastly in the very next page pag. 7. Sect. 5. to represent the voluntary exile of the Apologists with as hard-favour'd an aspect in the eyes of men as he could his indignation against it utters it self in this Patheticall strain over the poor Church of God in this Kingdome And if they all had fled away what might have become of the poor Church of God in this Kingdome c. Here by the Church of God in this Kingdome he cannot mean the Ecclesiastique Church of representing Presbyters because if these had all fled away there had been no Church of God in such a sense in this Kingdome By the Church of God in this place if he means any thing like a man hee must needs mean the godly part in the Kingdom and that considered without their Presbyters or Pastours And oh that hee and his coopinatory party would but grant that that executive coercive power which is in the civil Magistrate is for this Church I mean for the benefit and peace of this Church of God But in the mean time you see that his Trumpet in the Description he gives of his executive coercive externall power in the Magistrate gives no distinct sound perhaps he blew wild on purpose lest an enemy should know how to prepare to battaile against him But is there never a blessing of reason or truth in all this cluster Come and see In vertue of this authoritie saith he when parties pretend to be offended with the Church or the Church judge any thing amisse Sect. 6. he the Civill Magistrate may command the Church to examine its judgement c. In these few words he hath plainly plundred and undone a very confiderable partie of his owne beloved notions elsewhere For 1. What reason hath he to be so invective against the Apologists as he is pag. 49. and 50. for holding that Kings or civill Magistrates are above the Church when as himselfe here professeth that they may command the Church especially his own Maxime elsewhere being this that Par in parem non habet imperium and that
you Brethren in the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ that yee withdraw your selves from every brother that walketh inordinately c. and vers 14. If any man obey not this our saying in this letter note him and have no company with him that he may be ashamed Clearly implying that to with-draw communion and to deny Christian fellowship unto Christians walking inordinately is both a means of Divine institution and otherwise proper and commodious in it self to reclaim and bring them to Repentance There is the same reason of Churches in this behalf which there is of persons Churches being nothing else but persons embodied Secondly suppose there were no such sufficient or satisfactory remedy for the inconvenience mentioned in the way of the Apologists as A.S. conceives to be in his which yet there is as hath in part already and will afterwards further appear yet Lawyers have a saying that a mischief is better then an inconvenience A man had better run the hazard of a greater loss then expose himself to a daily wasting and consuming of his estate A man had better be wet through and through with a soaking showre once a yeer then be exposed in his house to continuall droppings all the yeer long The Delinquencie of whole Churches such I mean as is matter of publique scandall or offence to their neighbour Churches is not an every dayes case no more in the way of Congregationall men of Presbyteriall Government you acknowledge the rarity of it in your Government and we affirm it in ours Now then much better it is to want a remedy against such an evill which possibly may not fall out within an age though it be greater when it doth fall then it is to expose our selves to continuall droppings I mean to those daily inconveniences which wee lately shewed to be Incident to the Classique Government Thirdly they that implead the Congregationall way for being defective as touching the matter in hand seem to suppose that God hath â—ut a sufficiency of power inâ—o the hands of men to remedy all defects errours and miscarriagâ—s of men whatsoever Elâ—â— why should it be made matter of so deep a charge and challenge against the way of tâ—e Apologistâ— that it affords not a sufficient and satisfactory remedy either to prevent or heal all possible miscarriages in all churches I would willingly know in case your Church transcendent your supreme Session of Presbyters should miscarry and in your Doctrinall determinations give us bay stubble and wood in stead of silver gold and precious stones a misprision you know wel-neer as incident to such Assemblies yea and to those that are more generall and oecumeniall then so as obstinacy in errour is to particular Congregations what remedy the poor Saints and Churches of God under you have or can expect against such a mischiefe or what remedy you now have in the way of your government for the recovering of your selves out of such a snare more then what the Congregationall way affordeth for the reclaiming of particular Churches Nay the truth is your Government in such a case is at a greater loss in respect of any probable or hopefull remedy against such an evill which yet is an evill of a most dangerous consequence then the other way of Government is for the reduction of particular Churches That hath the remedy of God as hath been shewed though not the remedy of men and yet that remedy of God which it hath in appliable by men and those known who they are viz. the Churches of Christ neer adjoyning but if your great Ecclesiastique body be tainted or infected though never so dangerously Corpora morbis majora patent Sen. God must have mercy on you and that in a way somewhat at least more then ordinary if ever you be healed For that Directive power in matters of Religion which had you left it in other mens hands might in this case through the blessing of God have healed you being now only in your own hath not only occasioned that evill disease that is upon you but also leaves you helpless and cureless by other men A. S. makes the greatest part of his arguments against that way of Government which hee opposeth of what iffs I mean of loose and impertinent suppositions and cases that are not like to fall out till ursa major and ursa minor meet unto which kind of arguments every whit as much as enough hath been answered already but he shall shew himself a soveraign Benefactour indeed to the Presbyterian cause if he can find out a remedy satisfactory and sufficient against that sore evill we speak of incident to his Government in the case mentioned which is a case both of a far worse consequence then the obstinacy of a particular Church in some error and I fear of a far more frequent occurrence then the world is willing to take notice of Fourthly let us ponder a little how sufficient and satisfactorie that remedie against the evill now in consideration is which the Classique politie under the protection of A. S. his pen so much glorieth in let us compare the two remedies of the two corriving polities together as A. S. hath done after this manner But the Presbyteriall Government saith he p. 39. is subject to none of these inconveniences For the collective or combined eldership having an Authoritative power all men and Churches thereof are bound by Law and Covenant to submit themselves thereunto Every man knoweth their set times of meeting wherein sundrie matters are dispatched and all things carried by pluralitie of voyces without any schisme or separation Not to be troublesome to the man about his Grammaticals wherein hi pen slips oftner then Priscian will tolerate in such a piece because in these he opposeth nothing but a mans conceit either of overmuch scholarship or overmuch care in him Here is a remedie indeed against some inconveniences but whether the inconveniences be not much better then the remedie adhuc sub Judice lis est But what are the inconveniences The first is that Churches being equall in authoritie one cannot binde another to give any account in case of offence given Well what is the remedie for this in Classique constitution The combined Eldership having an authoritative power all men and Churches thereof are bound by Law and Covenant to submit themselves c. What is another inconvenience In case other churches were offended in the proceedings of a particular church they could not judge in it for then they should be both judge and partie in one cause c. Well what is the remedie in Presbyterian politie The combined Eldership having an authoritative power all men and Churchches c. What is a third inconvenience That Congregationall Government giveth no more power or authoritie to a thousand Churches over one then to a Tinker yea to the Hangman over a thousand c. What is the Presbyterian remedie for this The combined Eldership having an Authoritative power c.
The combined Eldership with their Authoritative power together with a Law or Covenant whereby all men and Churches under them are bound to submit unto them are as bars of iron and gates of brasse to keep out al those inconveniences irregularities defilements pollutions out of the Presbyterian Temple whereunto it seems the Congregationall temple for want of such stoure and tight provisions lies open But First what if your combined Eldership hath neither footing nor foundation in the Word of God It is not the serviceablenesse of it against a thousand such inconveniences as were mentioned that will justifie it Sauls offering sacrifice was a means to prevent the scattering of the people from him yet Samuel told him that he had done foolishly in it and it cost him his Kingdom 1 Sam. 13.9.13.14 So the putting forth of Vzzâ—h's hand to stay the Ark was a meanes to keepe it from being shaken but yet the doing of it cost him his life Peters valour and zeale in drawing his sword and laying about him was a likely meanes of rescuing his Master but the Lord Christ preferred the imminent danger of his life before such a rescue and check'd the sword that was drawne for him againe into the sheath That Law and constitution in the Papacie whereby all men all Churches thereof are bound to submit their judgements in matters of Faith to the decision of the Papall Chair is as soveraigne a remedie against all those inconveniences named as that for which Classique Authoritie is so much magnified by you and yet it is never the lesse abominable in the eyes both of God and men The Question is not which Government will serve most turnes but which is most agreeable to the will and Word of God If that of Presbyterie be defective this way as there is extreame cause to feare it is this defect cannot be recompenced or redeemed by any other commendation whatsoever Secondly neither can we with any tolerable satisfaction informe our selves out of all your discourse either what you meane by that Authoritative power which you claime to your combined Eldership nor yet how or by what or whose Authoritie they come to be invested with it As for the power sometimes you deny it to be Magisteriall or such which may not lawfully be declin'd when a man cannot submit unto it without disobedience to God otherwise you make it so irrefragably sacred as if it were no lesser sin then perjurie it selfe to detract it Again for the investiture of your Eldership with this power whether they arrogate it unto themselves and are their own carvers or whether the Civill State and Parliamentarie Law or whether the free and joynt consent of those over whom this power is exercised do conferre and derive it upon them you informe us not but count an ignoramus better then a verdict But till you do resolve us by what Authoritie or power this Authoritative power comes into the hand of your combined Eldership we shall thinke it safer to stand to the hazard and dammage of all the inconveniences spoken of then to subject to it Thirdly if the Law of the State be the first and most considerable band or tye upon men to submit unto the power of your combined Eddership as you seeme here to imply in saying that all men all Churches thereof are bound by Law c. then 1. you must acknowledge that the root and base of your Government is potestas secularis secular authoritie and then how is it Ecclesiastick or spirituall A man may as well bring a clean thing out of an unclean in Jobs expression as make a spirituall extraction out of a secular root Secondly it will rest upon you to prove that the Civill State hath a power to forme and fashion the government of the Churches of Christ Yea thirdly and lastly it will be demonstratively proved against you that you resolve the government of the Churches of Christ in the last resolution of it into the humors wills and pleasures of the world yea of the vilest and most unworthy of men But Fourthly and lastly the Authoritative power of your combined Eldership being granted unto you we doe not see how the inconveniences you find in the Congregationall way will bee much better solv'd in yours For first what if a particular Congregation under the jurisdiction of your Eldership reflecting upon the Oath or Covenant it hath taken for subjection thereunto as likewise upon all other engagements that way as unlawfull shall peremptorily refuse to stand to the awards or determinations of it what will you do in this case How will your combined Eldership remedy this inconvenience What will you excommunicate this Church The Apologists in their way do little lesse and that by a power farre lesse questionable then yours nay in your interpretation they doe every whit as much Or will you deliver them over Brachio secularie to be hamper'd and taught better then it seems you can teach them by prisons fines banishment c. O A. S. remember you tar'd the Apologists for comporting in a very small matter in comparison with the Arminians in case it had been true and will you comply with the Papists in a matter of this high nature Churches had need take heed how they chuse men for their Guardians that will so dispose of them if they please them not Besides you know what was said in the second chapter touching the power of the Magistrate in this case And what if in the Session of your combined Eldership there be no such thing as plurality of votes concerning excommunication of such a Church as it is very possible that in such a meeting the truth may find just as many friends as error hath and no more is not the remedy you spake of now in the dâ—st Again secondly to touch upon the second inconvenience mentioned when your combined Eldership proceeds against a particular Church amongst you upon offence taken is not this Eldership as well Party as Judâ—â— If you think you have every whit the better of it because your Eldership though it be both Party and Judge yet hath an authoritative power over those whom it judgeth I answer first that as our Saviour told Pilate He could have no power against him except it were given him from above no more can your Edership have over those whom it judgeth in this case Now how uncertain and faint the probabilities are that they have any power over them given them from above hath been formerly shewed at large And if that power which your Eldership claimeth and exerciseth over the Church arraigned be not from above then the Apologists remedy is farre better and safer then yours Secondly to hold and maintain that all those that have an Authoritative power over men may lawfully by vertue of such power be both parties and Judges is to exalt all manner of tyranny violence and oppression by a Law Upon such a supposition men invested with authority and power
whether in Church or State may be their own carvers and serve themselves of the estates liberties and lives of those that are under them how and when as oft as they list And why doe you not submit to the decisive judgment of the King in all controversies depending between you and him if that be your doctrine For the third inconvenience so called I shall be your debtour to tell me plainly and distinctly what power more your government giveth to a thousand Churches over one then to a Tinker or the Hangman over a thousand I doe not remember where either your selfe or any of your party have calculated the proportion but I well remember a saying in Charron That every humane proposition hath equall authoritie Tout proposition humane a autant d'autherite quel'autre si la raison n'on fait la d fference Charion de sagâ—sse Plus credendiâ— est assertioni alicujus simplicis non authoâ—izati excellenter in Scripturis eruditi quam declarationi Papae if reason make not the difference and another of Gerson much commended by Protestant Authors though the Author of it Pontificiall The saying of a simple man and no wayes authoriz'd if he be well seen in the Scriptures is rather to be beleeved then the Popes own determination But A. S. what makes you thinke for I can easily guesse what makes you say that the government of the Apologists gives no more power to a thousand Churches over one then to a Tinker or Hangman over a thousand Vbi uando quibus testibus did this government or any son it hath ever make any such comparison or so farre honour either your Tiâ—ker or Hungman as to make them quall in power to a thousand Churches And yet I suppose if a man should say that the dust in the ballance hath as much life in it as the Sunne it would be no disparagement to this excellent and glorious creature because the excellencie of it doth not stand in any degrees or superiority of life above any other creature but in the aboundance of light which it hath and the height of its situation and the service abtenesse of it to the world by means of both In like manner if it be supposed which I think upon what hath been delivered may very reasonably be supposed that the glory and excellencie of Churches doth not stand in any power or authority that one hath over another or many over one but in other farre more rich and holy and honourable endowments relations and qualifications it can be no prejudice or disparagement unto ten thousand of them to say they have no more authority over one then A. S. his Tinker or Hangman hath over them Therefore if A. S. his admired peece of Church-policie hath no greater commendation then to serve for preventing such Inconveniences as this the world needs make no great lamentation over it though it were in the condition of Rachels children Matth. 2.18 when she wept for them and would not be comforted Some other inconveniences there are wherein A. S. findes the Government which he opposeth tardie and thinkes he sets a crown of glory upon the head of his Presbytery in vindicating the innocencie of it in respect of such guilt But alas he washeth off this guilt with blood or with water fouler then it as hath been shewed and condemneth his government in that wherein he mainly alloweth it The guilt is innocencie in respect of the purgation There is one inconvenience formerly opened and insisted upon in this chapter very incident to Presbytery the conscience whereof me thinks should make all the sons of that way rather to cover and compassionate then to complain or cry out of any inconvenience they either see or rather think they see in another Chap. 5. Whether the Apologists and men of their judgement may lawfully and without danger or prejudice to the State be tolerated and whether A. S. his reasons to the contrarie be of sufficient weight to perswade either to the banishment crushing or suppressing of them in any kind HE that hath read the precedent part of this discourse and doth though but with the lowest degree of impartialitie consider what hath been argued between the two wayes Presbytery and Apologisme cannot lightly but mourne over the title of this chapter and think him to be a man of iron entrails that should give occasion to such a Question as is there propounded Suppose the opinion maintained in the latter part of the second Chapter were wav'd and such a coercive power in matters of Religion as A. S. contends for allowed in the Magistrates hand yet that any man should plead for the drawing of this sword against those men who first have such a considerable strength if not of evidence yet of reason for what they practise and professe secondly have a like if not a more considerable strength against that way of government which they cannot submit to Thirdly are by their fiercest adversaries and opposites themselves acknowledged ten times over for very pious godly and learned men Fourthly have been at least the generalitie of them and so continue men of the most affectionate and withall the most effectuall activitie and forwardnesse to promote the great cause of Religion Parliament and Kingdome Fifthly are as deep in or if you will as much out of their estates rateably for the support of this cause as any other sort of men whatsoever Sixthly have many of them such as were meet for such a service adventur'd their persons and lives in the face of the rage and furie of the common enemie continuing still in the same engagements Yea seventhly and lastly have some of them exposed themselves to more danger and harder termes from the adverse party then ordinary in case they should prevaile by a publick vindication of the cause of the Parliament in print from the Scriptures and that before any man of differing judgment from them in Church affairs appeared in the cause upon such termes that any man I say on this side of malignancie should consult the sorrow trouble disgrace suppression ruine of men so holy so harmlesse of such eminent desert in the cause of Religion State Kingdome me thinkes should exceed the line of humanity and be thought some inspiration or suggestion from the great enemy of mankind Neverthelesse if either God Reason the peace or safety of the Kingdome require the sorrows or sufferings of these men I make no question but they will be willing to dispense with all considerations whatsoever that stand up to plead their immunitie and will with Isaac patiently suffer themselves to be bound yea and to be offered up in sacrifice also if need be Onely their humble request and suit is that they may not be sacrificed upon the service of the ignorance vain surmises needlesse jealousies bitter suggestions whether of a few or of many Better a thousand times is it that such distempers as these though found in millions of men
pride as that the patient Philosopher could justly reply yea saith he Thou dancest on my pride with thy greater pride How much of this is A. S. his I say not but sure it was the unseasonablest if not the most unsavoury book to multitudes of spirituall palates as ever wise man put forth Yet Iames Cranford is quoted by the Printer in the page before the Title as approving it and the book with a licentious approbation in these words These judicious Observations and Annotations c. as being at this time necessarie and seasonable for the vindication of all Protestant Churches defending the authority of Parliaments and Synods and prevention of division amongst our selves though I reverence the persons of the Apologists yet I approve to be impressed Mr. Cranford if the Printer hath dealt faithfully with you let me intreat you and the Lord help you to see your selfe ask your conscience ask your reason ask the book it selfe whether there be one true clause in all that you have said Are these Observations c. of A. S. judicious that are extra-judiciall and prejudiciall to the publick peace and order and ordinance for dispute prejudging and adjudging them who joyntly with the grave Assembly A. S. acknowledgeth the Arbitrator in the matters in question Are they at this time necessarie when the grave Commissioners of Scotland had with farre more prudence and solidity then A. S. said by way of reply so much to the Apologie Nemine reclamante none replying till A. S. was abroad Is there any need to bring a great printing Presse to squeese to death a poore worme troden on before Or to bring many leavers to break an egge that makes small resistance The truth is A. S. his Observations are like a man with a Pole-axe knocking a man on the head to kill a flie lighting on his beard For though he saith He humbly submitteth to the Protestant Churches yet hee layes about him as if hee would knock them all down unto a submission to A.S. whosoever they be that will not stoop to his book For though he thinkes that all Protestant and Christian Churches are for him rather then for the five Ministers as he intimates in the beginning of his Epistle and therefore in all likelihood professeth a submission to them yet he will find many Churches in London he would wonder if we should name how many that will not submit to his book and yet come to the publick Ordinance doe not separate but are most willing to submit to the truth regularly discussed cleared and brought down to them Yet still James Cranford stands fixed in the licence page in black and not blush for asserting that A. S. his Observations c. are judicious and necessarie when as they are neither unlesse preposterousnesse abuse of good men and the disturbance of the people be judicious and necessarie For though the ensuing answer will prove them evill yet they will never be proved necessarie evils They are not so much as civilly necessary either necessitate praecepti as commanded by Parliament or Assembly or necessitate medii as usefull to compose but indispose the minds of men to embrace things prejudiced with the violence of private spirits Men will not be so easily whipt and compelled by one inferiour Again are the Observations seasonable which doe but interstrepere make a noyse whilst the Divines are disputing drawing the people together in heaps there taking up their parts to defend one against another and pre-ingage themselves before they come to heare what the Assembly will say For such a book cannot come forth but it makes a thousand dispute in a week every one then contending for his owne when it is so irregularly and illegally taken from him Are they for the vindication of all Protestant Churches when as in condemning the Apology they condemne many very many Churches in England many in Holland generally all in New-England notwithstanding some private Letters and Manuscripts sent over to which we shall answer afterwards Are they for the defence of the authoritie of Parliament in opposition to the Apology Doth the Apology touch one haire of the honourable heads of the Parliament Are not the five Ministers chidden some where in print R. C. for saying They allow more to the civill Magistrate then they thinke others principles can Doth not A. S. snib them tâ—o for going as he thinkes in their Apology to the civill Magistrate Pag. 4. Doth not A. S. in his Booke give a negative vote against the civill Magistrates directive power in matters of Religion Pag. 5. Let me say what I thinke seeng I think no harme viz. If the resolutions of the Divines be not digested by the reason and graces of the Houses of Parliament and so made as their owne sense for ought I know they will never be turned into a Statute If the Parliament have no directive power in matters of Religion or Ecclesiasticall under any notion then A. S. will condemn them for voting down the new Canons and prescribing the Oath or Covenant Are these Observations for the defence of the authoritie of Synods in opposition to the Apologie What Synods Scripture-Synods Where doth the Apologie whimper against them or doe you mean Classicall ones If so that 's the question And so you proclaim a defence of that which yet hath no existence The question is not resolved Lastly are these Observations for prevention of sad division amongst our selves Well Mr. Cranford you have by this endeavoured to set Divines together by the eares More Ecclesiastico your licentiating hath inabled men to give the second blow upon which the Common Law layeth the breach of the peace And notwithstanding you licence these Annotations yet you say you reverence the persons of the Apologists A pinne for such complements Love me and love the truth Let us measure your respects to them whilst the advantage of the higher ground whereon it stands be removed Away with your dare verba your froathy words This is the truth so much you respect them as A. S. respects them And so much have you spoken judiciously truly and seasonably as A.S. hath spoken and no more If he be cast you will be condemned Stand by Mr Cranford and heare A. S. tryed and in him your selfe THE EPISTLE A. S. To the right reverend Divines the Authors of the Apologetical Narration M. S. The Authors of the Apologeticall Narration desire more of your right though they have lesse of your reverence Had I written a booke with so much unreverence I would either have blotted out my title Right Reverend or else I should never have put in that Episcopall stile Most Reverend and Right Reverend seeing the Bishops are going For to stroke in the title and to strike in the book is but flattery if not grosse dissimulation Or as to say Art thou in health my brother and in the meane while to strike under the fift rib A. S. The high esteeme I have ever
and not offend the consciences of Brethren or Gods woe is by him pronounced against you A. S. I may adde to all these your undervaluing of the Parliaments great favour towards you For yee know brethren how they notwithstanding your former separation from all other Churches c. invited you to be members of this Assembly had they not given you the capacity yee had been altogether incapable And not only that but they honoured one of you with the high favour of sending one of you with their Commissioners to Scotland M. S. O abominable accusation O sycophantising insinuation Who art A. S. Cujas Can an English-man unjesuited or any Minister unprelatised or any man honestised say thus I am distressed how to put home to this and yet prudently I tell thee A. S. Thy accusation is a gross falshood For their respect to the Parliament and their respect from the Parliament let many of the choyce members of both Houses speak they will soon prove thee a gross Thy probation a silly phantasie Did ever any Vote of the Parliament or of the Assembly accuse the Apologie of undervaluing the Parliaments favours None but he that hath A. S. as part of his name would say so For all discreet men see plainly that as the form and stile of the Apologie is most sweet so the matter now in hand so much as is there intimated is the Question Can that be an offence to the Parliament for the five Ministers to propound that of the things they are to debate by Ordinance of Parliament which is to them the question making it ready and leaving it for debate in the Assembly Yea whether the whole draught of the Apologie be to be condemned or commended by the Parliament that is also a question yet unresolved by Parliament Assembly and a considerable part of City and Kingdom Therefore why doth one A. S. presumptuously make it a crime against the Parliament Since the thrice worthy Parliament had it in debate in the House March 13. 1643. being put on by the Letters from Middleborough in Zeland and upon the speech of learned Mr. Selden and others they resolved with a generall acclamation that the Apologie was to be left as it was found unblamed The God of heaven in much mercy bless the Parliament as for all the good they have done so for their uprightness therein They joy of the Churches is now as high as their sorrows would have been deep had it been condemned For it would to them have been not only a dolefull ante or anti but-anticipating-presage But blessed be our Parliament-guiding God that as they had no hand in the Apologie so they would have no hand against it Therefore away A. S. Operam oleum perdidisti as the Starling said to the Emperour having saluted him in vain with 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 you have lost your labour The Parliament despise sycophantising colloguing Are you as wise as that Bird to see that it said And on the other side they do not repent of what honour they conferred on Mr. Nye For the Parliament in wisdom chose some Episcopall men to be of the Assembly to plead their own cause if they could Some of which since cast out themselves and others were cast out and through him on his brethren of the same judgement They could not but think what ever you dream but that the five Ministers were in as neer a capacity to be of the Assembly c. being native English-men and against Episcopacie as either those of other Nations or those of our own in judgement holding for Episcopacie and standing for the just and lawfull authority of Magistracy as either A. S. The Apol. Narration containing how ever you name it a singular desire of separation from them that so cherish you with some unworthy nick-names put upon them who stile you by no worse names then Brethren M. S. What ever names A. S. puts upon this his Book as Annot. Consid Notes sure enough Nigro carbone notandus Hic Niger est hunc tu Romane caveto it is not candid but holds forth A. S. his singular desire of making division if he could either between the Parliament and the Brethren or between them and our dearest brethren of Scotland if M. S. do rightly divine what he means by them God and man hates this thy design O A. S. Six things the Lord hates yea seven are abomination to him Aproud look a lying tongue an heart that deviseth wicked imaginations a false witness that speaketh lies him that soweth discord among brethren c. for I have named enough for A. S. to make his choice And I am informed that the worthy Commissioners of Scotland nobly done do utterly dislike A. S. his Book From whom we have far more evident and effectuall symptomes of their cordiall love then the word Brethren Which with A. S. in his Book is nothing but Complementall dissimulation For his Epistle begins as it were with kissing viz. Right reverend and dear Brethren And his book is biting So that as he useth the word Brethren it is much to the same sense as a parasiticall Minister being to preach an odde fellows funerall did use the words of that deceased mans Will viz. In the name of God Amen this story is proper for A. S. if he hath any skill in the law for I cannot yet be certain what he is saith the Priest being put to it for matter for his Trentall Panegyrick See the devotion of this deceased brother he begins his Will with In the name of God Amen A silly Goose for it 's as common for all good and bad to begin their Wills so as A. S. knows if a Lawyer as for A. S. to call Brethren and to bawl forth reviling all along his book As for the Nick-names A. S. chargeth upon the five Ministers with which they should nick-name I know not whom he names them not which makes me think he hath no skill in Law He knows that Dolus latet in universalibus or to use his own words p. 47. Sermones generales non movent we cannot answer to generalls nor can he find them in the Apologie What a Pharisee may phantasie that will not have mens defects intimated as they stand in the crowd of all Christendome I am sure the worthy Commissioners piously confess their Churches may be yet further reformed and what religious men will not sigh forth the same touching their own native Countries A. S. What else have yee done but erected one Assembly in the Assembly by private authority against publike taking private resolutions against publike M. S. O gross yet he will follow Machiavels counsell that said Calumniare audacter aliquid adherebit If men must not speake write or preach any thing that may relate to something in debate in the Assembly then as it was excellently spoken in Parliament Ministers may write and say nothing at all Divers print and preach for the Presbytery yet of
the Papists who pretend to be nothing but one Church meaning that a compliance with them in unity and uniformity will be an exemption to them from their calumnies 3. It is an old piece of subtilty of the old Serpent Sect. 14. to oppose God in his Saints and in his wayes by teaching his Prophets and Agents to make parallels between to sort and to suit Gods servants with his and Gods wayes or works with his that so the foolish and inconsiderate world might be brought to think that God and hee are but one and that there is little or no difference between them How did Jannes and Jambres withstand Moses but by doing the same things in appearance by the help of the Devill which Moses did by the finger of God By this they hardened Pharaoh and the Egyptians with this confidence and conceit that God was no more with Moses then with them A. S. parallels the Apologists with the Arminians hoping to catch the foot of the simple in this snare to make them think that they are both baptized into one and the same spirit you shall finde a further strain of this malignity in him pag. 22. Fourthly and lastly if the Arminians gave that power to the Civill Magistrate which they are here charged to have done Sect. 15. upon hope they would have beene for them they are no Antipodes to A. S. and his fraternitie who deny this power to the Civill Magistrate for feare they should not be for them if they were left free to judge of their owne actions All the lineaments in the face of Presbyterie demonstrate this to be in the heart of it a willingness to conferre all and all manner of power whatsoever upon the Civill Magistrate in matters of Religion which they may be secured will be used to serve their turnes and not to the prejudice or disturbance of them in their way And so A. S. after hee had laboured in the very fire and had ingag'd himselfe to the uttermost to prove the negative he fals off with this glozing close at the last pag. 51. that if the King and Parliament should finde any thing contrary to what he had delivered expedient he had nothing to say against it Therefore of the two Arminians are more charitably affected towards the Civill Magistrate in casting a power upon them out of an hope they would use if for their good then the Presbyterians are in denying this power unto them out of feare they will use it to their damage 6. And lastly Sect. 16. for conclusion of this first Chapter concerning such a Directive power in matters of Religion as A. S. it seemes would here sequester for the honour and service of his Presbyterie when Jesus Christ had declared himselfe willing to divest himselfe and make a delegation of it unto them I shall as willingly acknowledge and adore their parent as any other In the meane time God supporting me I shall with the utmost of my power and in the presence of all discouragements dangers deaths vindicate the rights and prerogatives belonging to the crowne of my great Lord and Master what shall become of me in so doing ipse viderit As for such a Directive power which with the honour and safety of the rights of Heaven is attributable unto men whose character and cognizance is this not to be compulsorie unto men by any externall violence whether directly or indirectly to subscribe against their judgements and consciences to it I can freely allow as much of it to A. S. and his Presbyterial Assemblies as will stand with their peace with God with their honour in the sight of unpartiall and intelligent men with the peace and edification of the Churches of God if they would have more let them looke to it this desire of theirs will in time finde them out and slay them Cap. 2. Concerning that executive coercitive and externall power in matters of Religion which A. S. ascribes unto the Civill Magistrate pag. 6. A. S. in this sixth page to perswade with the Parliament and Civill Magistrate that they shal do God good service to resigne up their eyes patiently into the hands of his Presbyterie feeds them with the commendations of Constantine the Great in refusing an unjust and exorbitant powâ—r which the Councell gave to him Where by the way it is somewhat observable that it is a thing incident to Councels and Synods to give unjust exorbitant power unto Civil Magistrates So that it stands the Parliament civil Magistrate in hand before they part with their eyes upon such terms to look about them and to consider twice over what power they receive and accept of from the hand of Councel and Synods especially in reference to matters of Religion and the Churches or servants of Christ It is a terrible saying of Christ enough to make both the ears of Kings and Princes and Parliaments yea and of Synods and Assemblies too to tingle Whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me it were better for him that a milstone were hanged about his neck and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea Matth. 18.6 It is dangerous medling with Saints in any other way then of tenderness and love be the never so few in number never so weak in power or otherwise one of these little ones saith Christ All the 21. Reasons with 41. more put to them whereby A. S. incites the Parliament against a toleration of the Apologists with men of their judgement in the sequele of his discourse will not deliver either the King or Parliament out of the hand of that threatning if they come under the dint of it by offering any violence shall I say yea any offence to the least of these little ones The Holy Ghost I Cor. 15.24 prophesieth of the putting down of all rule and all authority and power by Christ the reason thereof in the words immediatly following hee sheweth to be their enmity unto him for hee must reign saith the Apostle Vers 25. till he hath put all his enemies under his feet The truth is that it is a very hard matter even for the best of men in places of rule authority and power to move regularly in their own orb and not to mistake or strain beyond the tenour of their commission to intermeddle in the affairs of Christ considering first that they are compassed about with their own infirmities as well as other men secondly in respect of their callings they are compassed about with more tentations this way then other men thirdly and lastly which is as much or more then both the former if they be Christians what between the insinuations and flatteries of the baser and the inconsiderate affections and favour of the better sort of Teachers they are taught to dash their foot against this stone as if it were another crown of glory to them But let us first see Sect. 2. what that executive or coercive if it
all Religions as they call them all wayes sects opinions and practices in Religion wholly siâ—enc'd suppress'd and abolished where they live excepting only that one way and practice which shall be authorised and practised by the State Because by this means they hope they shall not be distracted about their Religion nor be put upon that sore trouble of seeking it they know not where or amongst whom but shall have it put into their mouths by the hand of Authority which they hope likewise will stand between them and harm in case it should not prove a Religion of that purity and goodness which God requireth 10. And lastly That power which in the use of it Sect. 37. directly tends to defile and pollute the consciences of men either by destroying the softness tenderness and ingenuity of them or by disturbing the lawfull peace and comfort of them or by both is a power from beneath not from above This Proposition also a conscience any whit ingenuous cannot lightly deny But such is the coercive power in matters of Religion wherewith A. S. would fain befriend himself in the civill Magistrate Ergo. The truth of the Assumption appears in this consideration When the conscience of a man hath once broke the bands and tie of its own light and prostituted it self to the desires and pleasures of men against the grain of its own judgement and inclination whereunto it is sorely tempted and urged when the man is threatned deep in case he shall not comply with the State in their Religion his judgement and conscience being wholly averse to it one of these two great evils or miseries commonly befalls him Either 1. God takes no more pleasure in such a conscience afterwards but withdrawing himself from it leaves it unto it self whereupon secretly as it were resenting the departure of God from it it falls upon a course of hardening it self and by degrees contracts a boldness impudence and desperateness in sinning as a woman by suffering a breach to be made upon her modestie or chastity once often becomes facile and prone to that kinde of sinning afterwards or else 2. by reflecting upon what it hath done in such a case and feeding night and day upon the sad thoughts of its own act and casting it up between God and it self how grievous a sin it is to trample upon its own light for any mans sake or upon any consideration whatsoever it brings it self into grievous agonies of perplexity and horrour out of which it never recovers afterward Thus I have given A. S. an account of my present thoughts touching that coercitive power in matters of Religion which hee is so importune to put into the civill Magistrates hand with both his own making it as strange and uncouth a matter as a new Independ neio amounts unto pag. 60. that any man should not give the righâ— hand of fellowship to his conceit herein Whicâ— yet notwithstanding I shall be most willing and ready to do if the man wilâ— buâ— do mee the courtesie solidly and theologue-like by reason and not by vote that is unanswerably to answer the ten arguments propunded For I profess ingenuously there is nothing separates between mee and his judgement in the point in hand but only those ten reasons with their fellows and if I were able to answer them my self I would abate the condition required to the bargain and purchase my agreement with him by mine own labour Chap. 3. Concerning Presbyterie or Classique Government of Churches whether it be founded upon the Scriptures or what foundation it hath otherwise IT is easie to observe and yet well worth the observing how A. S. his hand trembleth and shaketh in drawing the line of the descent and pâ—degree of his Presbyteriall Government hee knows not well where to finde the sourse first spring or originall of it Hee is between the Scriptures on the one hand and the law of nature on the other as the Poet describes a fierce Tygre between two droves or herds of cattell Nescit utrò potius ruat ruere ardet utroque He knows not which he had best fall upon but hath a great minde to fasten upon both When he hath occasion to skirmish with the Apologists upon this point me thinks I see him traversing his ground as if he trod upon hot Irons he treads daintily and tenderly and shifts his steppings to and again off and on as if he felt no ground under him but that whereof he was jealous And it seems that for the whole family it self of persons ingaged in A. S. his judgement about Church-government though they be but one resolutely enough agreed for the government it self yet there are great divisions of heart amongst them concerning the parentage and descent of it Some out of a desire to have it the more adored and reverenced in the world will needs have it to be of the house and lineage of Johns Baptisme viz. from heaven from the Scriptures Others of them fearing that genealogie to be so perplexed and intricate that it is fitter to make strife and questions of then dâ—monstration and satisfaction think it better to wave that title and claim and to content themselves with a Meropean in stead of a Phoebean parentage for it to rise no higher then the liberty or power of the Church it self to seek its originall Which cleft in the house considered it was a very prudent spoke put into the wheel of the Apologists by him that gave counsell if all tales be true at no hand to have it put to vote whether Presbyteriall Government could be proved from the Scriptures or no. Such a vote as this might very possibly have prov'd of as interruptory a consequence to the builders of this Government as the confusion of tongues sometimes did to builders of another fabrick But A.S. is A perse A for ought that ever yet I could hear save only from his own pen in making subordination Sect. 2. between superiour and inferiour Ecclesiasticall Judicatories i. in plain English Presbyteriall Government to be partim juris divini partim naturalis aut mixti partly of divine right partly of naturall or mixt which yet is his Dâ—cision pag. 27. When he affirmes pag. 36. that his Presbyteriall power needs not any pattern formally and expressly from Christ it sufficeth that it hath one from nature would not a man think that he waves the Scriptures in the question as being compleatly furnished otherwise to make good his standing And yet within a few lines after he glories too in the superfluous and over-abounding contributions of the Scriptures to him And yet saith he we can shew a patent for it not onely from the Law of Nature which should suffice but also from the Law of Grace in the old and new Testament In other places hee seemes wholly to decline the Law of Nature as if men by their prudentials or power in any kind had nothing to doe to institute or set up any power in
whereas he addes in the close of this reason that the lesse the difference be the greater is the schisme and addes no more I marvell who he thinks will entertain such a saying the old Writ of Ipse dixit being out of date long agoe yet the saying somewhat confirms me in what I said before viz that the man knows not what belongs to a schism For doth he here by a schism understand anything that is sinful Then he makes the lesser difference from the truth to be a greater sin then a greater would be If his meaning be that the lesse materiall the ground or reason of any mans dissenting from a major part be the greater is his fault or sin in dissenting We answer that his Argument proceeds not onely a non concessis but also a non concedendis for to dissent from a major part though the grounds of a mans dissent be no matters of deep consequence yet if they be such wherein his judgement and conscience are not satisfied his dissent is no sin at all and consequently cannot be the greater sin Gnats must not be swallowed for any mans sake more then Camels His 5 reason answered To his fifth Reason we answer First that suppose God in the Old Testament granted no toleration of divers Religions or disciplines doth it follow from hence that you should grant none neither Dare you say in matters of knowledge authority and power Ero similis Altissimo you will be like the Highest Remember the fall of the son of the morning Will you set your threshold by Gods and compare with him for excellencie of knowledge or infallibilitie of discerning If you could assure us after the rate of a divine assurance that that Religion and Discipline which you would impose on us are in all points sound and justifiable in the sight of God we could much better beare the height of your indignation against a toleration of any discipline or opinions but your own Secondly though God granted no such toleration as you speak of in terminis yet he straightly prohibited all manner of violence oppression and hard measure among his people one towards another and in speciall manner charged it upon the consciences of the rich not to take any advantage of the povertie of their brethren to exact upon them enslave them and the like Though such Lawes as these in the letter of them respected onely civill transactions and dealings between men yet the equitie and spirit of them extends to spirituals also men being every whit as liable to violence oppression and hard measure from men for their conscience sake as in any other respects or upon any other grounds whatsoever Therefore in case there had been a minor party in that Nation that had been of a peculiar judgement by themselves about the sense and meaning of such or such a Law relating unto practice as Lawes generally doe in one kinde or other and so had dissented in this practice from the major part of their brethren in their Nation in case this major part had taken the advantage of their brethrens weaknesse and because they were fewer in number should have forc'd them against the light of their judgments to alter their practice or if they refused should have troden and trampled upon them or any wayes evill intreated them it had been as apparent a breach of the Laws we spake of as any oppression or violence in civill proceedings And the truth is that for men that are truly conscientious civill liberty as it is called i. freedome from illegall taxes impositions exactions imprisonments without libertie of conscience is an accommodation of little value yea without this such men are not capable of much ease or benefit by the other They are still in danger of being in trouble and molestation from the State for their conscience sake 3. Though God gave no such toleration as you speak of by a law yet he did actually tolerate for a long time together with much patience not onely a minor but a major part of the Jewish Nation in a manner the whole Nation and that not only in some opinions or practises which were disputably false or sinfull but even in such which were notoriously and unquestionably such 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 saith Paul Act. 13.18 He suffered or tolerated their manners in the wildernesse fourtie yeares and afterwards in the land of Canaan many and many a yeare longer even till there was no remedy as the Scripture somewhere speaketh So then if you be willing to follow the practice and example of God an honour whereunto you seem to pretend in this Reason you must tolerate your brethren not onely in some opinions and practises which are dialectically and topically evill but even in those which are demonstratively such 4. And lastly whereas you adde that the New Testament requireth no lesse union among Christians then the old did amongst the Jewes we acknowledge the truth of what you say but the pertinencie of it to your purpose we yet desire Though the New Testament requires union amongst Christians and that very ardently and pressingly yet it doth not require him that is stronger to cudgell him that is weaker into the same opinion with him If you be of a better growth and stature in knowledge then we and comprehend such truths as wee doe not yet understand we are most willing as farre and as fast as meat and nourishment will doe it to grow up unto you onely we would not be rack'd or stretch'd to the same stature or proportion with you We shewed in our second Chapter what meanes the new Testament hath appointed and sanctified for the effecting of the unitie amongst the Saints which it requireth of them His 1. Reason answered For your sixt Reason so called wee can scarce see the face of a Reason in it You say that if your brethren do assent to your Doctrine and are resolved likewise to assent to your Discipline which shall be established by common consent they need no other toleration then the rest If your meaning be that in case they assent to your Doctrine and are resolved to assent to your Discipline viz. immediately and out of hand as soone as it comes from under the hammer and hath but the stamp of Presbyteriall Authoritie set upon it we are clearly of your mind and doe not conceive how or why they should need any other alteration then what others have Onely we somewhat marvell that you should so farre forget your selfe as to imply by this your expression that even your Presbyterian partie it selfe standeth in need of a toleration as well as ours Jam sumus ergo pares Truth I see is sometimes too quick and cunning for her adversaries But if your meaning be that a resolution in your Brethren the Apologists to assent to your Discipline viz. when and assoon as they can possibly satisfie themselves touching the lawfulnesse of it will exempt them from a necessitie of a Toleration