lambe and that worde of their testimonie they are more then conquerours brusing the head of the serpent yea thorough the power of his word they haue power to cast downe sathan like lightning to tread vpon serpents and scorpions to cast downe strong holdes and euerie thing that exalteth it selfe against God The gates of hell and all the principalities powers of the world shall not preuaile against it Brownist The muster maister hath viewed the world chosen his soldiers appointed the victuallers selected out the sergeants of the bands hath brought them to their captaine and they are readie to march on vnder his conduct in the face of their enemies bodily and ghostly to the confusion of sathan sinne hell and all VVhat wages he exspected for this his peece of seruice is best knowne vnto him selfe but what faithfulnes he hath vsed in his dealing it is apparant vnto all for in these three things his packing is notorious First that the victory of the church which she is assured of in and through the power of Christ is here restrained limited for our author doeth acknowledge it so farre only as it enioyeth this foresaid gouernement of Pastors Doctors Elders c. Secondly that the power of the word of God the ministerie thereof which is the sanctified meanes for sathans ouerthrow and the building vp of Christ his church is here granted no otherwise then this word is preached vnder this outward gouernement Lastly that the certainetie of victorie which is by faith is heere applied to the whole visible church as if all the members thereof were truly faithful By this his practise he woulde conclude that which as yet remaineth vnproued viz. that the necessitie of this gouernmēt is such that the enioyning of it is sufficient to make the church without spot or wrinckle and that where this is wanting there is no fight against fathan no strife against sinne no victorie no church apparant The testimonies of Scripture that should helpe him herein and are for the same cause noted in the margent do cut the throat of these his follies For thogh he telleth vs that this armie of Sainctes is martialled here on earth by these officers yet the holy ghost describeth the warrior and his traine to be the warriors which were in heauen Though this man saith that triumph is made by vertue of this gouernment yet the holy ghost saith it is in pacience and constancie of faith and obedience And in a word though he affirmeth that discipline is all in all yet the places noted by him speaking of the power of Christ in his sernants ouercomming satan doe not once mention anie outward gouernment much lesse this discipline here prescribed Brownist Further he hath giuen them the keies of the kingdome of heauen that whatsoeuer they binde on the earth by his word shall bee bound in heauen and whatsoeuer they loose on earth shall be loosed in heauen Now this power which Christ hath giuen vnto his Church and to euerie member of his church to keepe it in order he hath not lefte it to their discretions and lustes to bee vsed or neglected as they will but in his last will and testament he hath set downe both an order of proceeding and an end to which it is vsed Answere God hath in deede committed authoritie vnto his church of binding and loosing and hath also shewed an order of proceeding which assertions are to be collected out of these three places of Scriptures which are twice noted in the margent that the number of testimonies which they vsed might seeme greater then it is But here we haue to marke that Christ is said to haue giuen this power aforesaid to euery member of the church so that heere is no difference made betwene the people the gouernors or at the lest i◠he supposeth a difference to be betweene them he hath not set downe how farre the authoritie of the people is extended Againe if the people be granted so greate an interest in the matters of the church we must thinke that the officers themselues I meane the Deacons releeuers were not to be secluded which being graunted and seemeth here to be concluded not only women haue to dele in the censures of the Church but also the description of euerie office the Elder onely excepted hath ben vnperfect seeing no such matter hath beene mentioned in any of them Secondly we are to note that he saith that this order is not left to the descretion of the church for if his meaning bee that the censures of the church ought to bee vsed with all fidelitie wee doe not gainesaie him but if hee meane that when they are not duely executed there the church doeth cease to be the church apparant according to that doctrine which in another place they haue set downe then do they agree with the Anabaptists Donatists herein who being sufficientlie answered the one by Bullinger the other by Augustine I maruell that these men shoulde not be satisfied and contented to reuoke this error The summe of whose answers tend to this that the end of excommunication for the question is not of the officers but of the church censures in this place is that the partie punished might bee amended that the credite of the church might bee furthered that others be not offended and made worse and that the church might be preserued in peace Therefore edification and the welfare of the Church are especially to be regarded for better it were that wicked men should goe vnpunished if the punishing of them shoulde damnify the Church Againe the church of Corinth was the church of God when they neglected to proceede against the incestuous person Also the last supper of the Lord was rightly administred yet Iudas was not excommunicate the Prophets complained of the sinnes of the church in their times yet contemned they not the sacrifices sacraments and worship of God Christ and his Apostles blamed the Church for grosse corruptions yet was he circumcised therein c. By which reasons as by others by thē produced we are vrged to acknowledge that it may be the Church of God which doth not alwaies proceede against the wicked according to their deserts Thirdly we are to marke that hee ascribeth the keies of the kingdom of heauen to the officers before named whereas Christ committed this power not to the Elders for none were established but vnto the ministers of the word for in Peter they all are represented as by considering the places alleged out of Mathew and Iohn will plainly appeare Brownist And if the fault be priuate priuat holy louing admonition and reproofe with an inward desire and earnest care to win their brother but if he wil not heare thee yet to take two or three other brethren with him whome hee knoweth most meet to that purpose that by the mouth of two or three witnesses euerie worde
the corruptioÌ„ of their harts Thirdly that our ministery is antichristian a matter handled pag. 125. the scurrilitie in calling them hirelings mercenary preachers c. deserueth no answer the names of parson vicar c. doth not make a difference in the ministery but in their maintenance Fourthly we are subiect to the popish courtes as high commission c. wherunto I answer that al these courts haue their authority from her maiesty though some of theÌ„ more directly then the other In consideration wherof to call the lest antichristian is arrogant but to ioine theÌ„ all in one sentence to disswade her maiesties subiects froÌ„ yeelding obedience vnto any of theÌ„ it will be found an act of no good subiect yet for mine owne parte I purpose not to giue iudgement in the matter I leaue it to such as are acquainted with the law onely I will propound the case which is this The high court of Parlement hath agreed that the queene her hignes successors kings queenes of this realme shall haue full power by letters pattents vnder the great seale to name and authorise when as often and for so long time as her highnes her heires or successors shall thinke meete such person or persons as she or they shal thinke meet to execute vnder her c. all manner iurisdictions priuileges and preheminences in any wise concerning any spirituall iurisdiction within England and Ireland c. 1. Eliz. 1. Now her maiestie by the authoritie aforesaid hath graunted her letters pattentes vnder the great seale for the two courts of high commission and delegates And by the said authority first from the Parlement and then from her maiestie these two courtes doe stande and not by any other right or authoritie whatsoeuer yet these two courts of high commission and of delegates are here tearmed popishe and antichristian courts and the people are condemned to be antichristian which yeelde obedience vnto them This therefore is the case Whether it toucheth her maiesty or not that libels railing vpon and calling her highnes authority which is warranted by her broad seale popish antichristian c. Brownist These assemblies are not ruled by the old and new testament but by the canons iniunctions and decrees of those antichristian and popish courts therefore c. Ansvvere The Argument is this The true church is ruled by the old and new testament but the church of Englande is not c. Therefore c. If Christ hath in his last will set down a perfect gouernment for his church as they say he hath there is little vse of the olde Testament for direction of discipline vnder the Gospell But this Argument being in effect the same with the former needeth no other answere then it had Brownist These people stand not in for their Christian libertie but all of them remaine in bondage to these Aegyptian and Babylonishe yoakes yeelding obedience vnto these courts and their canons Therefore c. Ansvvere The Argument is this All and euerie of the true Church stand in and for their christian libertie to practise whatsoeuer God hath commanded them c. But in the church of England they stande not for their christian libertie Therefore c. Ansvvere We haue seene pag. 49. 50. that the priuate man doth passe the bondes of his calling in presuming to deale with publike reformation Againe it was sayde pag. 45. that in the visible church it doth not alwaies fall out that euerie member hath that freedom which is requisite in the performance of their christian dueties of his calling The proposition therefore is false As for the assumption in differing nothing from the three former it doth commend the greate facilitie of the author who in resoning in so smal varietie of matter is able to frame so greate a change of argumentes which yet being considered of doe appeare all one in effect Brownist These assemblies haue not the povver vvhich Christ hath giuen vnto his church vnto the vvorlds end al the povvers of earth and hell cannot take from them viz. to binde and loose and to reforme things that are amisse but are driuen to the Commissarie courtes Therefore c. Ansvvere The Argument is this The true church hath power to execute the censures of the church but the church of Englande hath not Therefore c. The proposition faileth for the true church is sometimes without outward gouernement whereof read pag. 25. and so consequently without the power which this man speaketh off for I know he will not restraine this power of binding and loosing though he might vnto the ministerie of the word whereof notwithstanding Christ speaketh Ioh. 20. 23. saying Whose sinnes soeuer ye remit they are remitted and whose sinnes ye retaine they are retained As for the assumption it is most vntrue for we haue not onely the power of Gods word which he hath giuen vnto his ministerie to bind and to loose therby but also the censures of the church in respect of outward gouernement I grant that euerie seuerall congregation hath not this power and I dare affirme that in no age it can be proued that euery seuerall congregation had this authoritie but euen in those churches which had an Eldership the same was not in euery assemblie but diuerse congregations were ordered by one senyorie therefore to say that because euerie priuate congregation hath not this power therefore it is not at all in the church is a childish kind of reasoning Brownist These assemblies cast out sathan by the power of sathan namely by these Imps of Antichrist the Bishops commissaries and priests Therfore they are not and for all their reasons seuerall and ioyned cannot be held in any Christian iudgement the true church of Christ. Answere In this last Argument is granted vnto vs that which before was denied viz. that our church hath power of casting out but it faileth in the manner for if they say true this power is not from Christ but from the imps of Antichrist c. vnto which accusation I answere the end wherefore men are cast out from amongst vs by the doctrine of our church should be that the offender by being depriued of the seales of the couenant might be brought vnto repentance Now for the ordering hereof the people are not in the weightie matters of the church to haue their voice pag. 47. c. And a presbyterie in euery congregation cannot be had pag. â—8 therfore neither election ordination excommunication nor other censures of the Church are to be committed to euerie particular congregation As for this vnchristian dealing in condemning for Antichristian whatsoeuer is not according to their humour it hath bene often answered Some defectes there are in our gouernment we challenge no perfection some corruption there is oftentimes in such as haue the ordering of it I defend not all But in this I would be resolued if wee by the power of Satan cast out Satan by what power do they cast out
faction crie out that the true church is without spot or wrinkle or grosse pollution take libertie to slaunder those that are in authoritie so to free themselues from all submission affirme that the Sacraments are no Sacraments Whervpon though the renuer of this schisme Browne I meane did not in plaine wordes require a baptising againe yet their succossors in their established Church attempted it haue taught that they being the Lordes free people the magistrate is not to deale in causes ecclesiasticall holde that men are not to be compelled to good duties binde one another with a vow to persist in this faction boast of suffrings c. yet detest the name of Donatisme though Donatus was the first deuiser of Brownisme though Brown was the only restorer of these fansies The forerunners it should seeme were grosse when their Disciples are ashamed to be accounted their schollers yet if anie grossenesse as yet vnnamed either in matters of faith or manner of dealing be found in them it will appeare in these also for it is no new fansie but an ancient heresie neither is there hope that they will be restrained but by an olde remedie For as the Donanists when councels were called conference was had and they were conuicted yet gaue it out with great glorie that they had put to silence all the learned and remained wilfull vntill that by the sharp laws of Honorius they were restrained yea and many of them by that meanes were brought againe to the Church so with our men all gentle meanes haue bene vsed in conference hard speeches haue onelie helped them yet remaine they obstinate and brag of victorie if the lawes of our christian Honorius doe them no good they are incurable No doubt the Phisition is irke some to a frantique person and a father to an vnrulie child the one in binding the other in striking and both in louing The dutie of a phisition and the nature of a father must appeare in the magistrate not in satisfieng the desires of the froward to cōtent them but in restraining their phrensie to profite them It may bee to the discontentment of some that anie punishment should be inflicted vpon them for their disordered stubburnnes I would not be mistaken I wish it not howsoeuer m. Greenwood affirmeth that the magistrate ought to compell vnto the hearing of the word Only this I saie that the lesse these matters are cōsidered of the better may the men be conceiued of but view their writings examine their doctrine and marke their dealings and they will appeare the open enemies of Gods truth for in pretending to establish a church they ouerthrowe the church and vnder the colour of setting vp the discipline of Christ they seeke to plague themselues and others with their owne dreams which in this their treatise of discipline and in their two other treatises of certaine conferences lately by them published shall bee made manifest to the indifferent reader In answering of them al onelie the calumniations in the conferences excepted which concerne some particular persons whose cause I leaue to themselues who best know how farre they are abused and in regorde thereof can best answere the same I haue followed the authors method leauing the man and seeing into the matter not regarding who wrote it but what is the doctrine that is maintained by him As for the treatise of the visible Church it will appeare not tollerable inasmuch as it is impious abusing the Scripture iniurious to the Church in describing a false gouernment and daungerous to the simple who are readie to bee deceiued with euerie blast of vaine doctrine The other discourses are not onely like vnto it but haue in them many bitter speeches vngodlie slanders both of Church Magistracie Ministerie and all wherby it seemeth that the author hath not learned to rule his pen. In this mine attempt I haue small hope to satisfie those that are wedded to their will when Gaudentius was answered sufficientlie to his follies hee would notwithstanding returne his aunswere though he did the same nulla ratione respondens sed magis se nec respondere nec tacere potuisse declarans If our author wil replie let him labour to be vnlike to Gaudentius and his companie who with words and bitter speeches sought to vphold their cause if he vse the Scriptures let him applie them faithfully and then if he preuaile the controuersie will be at end In the meane while if these poore labours of mine might satisfie these discontented persons or failing hereof might staie the ignorant from beeing seduced or else might prouoke them that are better able to deale more substantially in these matters I shal be glad Finally I am to intreate the reader both to accept in good part that which in desire of his good is deliuered And also before hee beginne to reade this treatise to amend such faultes as by default in the printing were committed R. A. Faultes escaped in the printing The 2. pag. line 21. This read Thus. pag. 5. li. 5. read the sentence pag. 9. line 24. reade preaching pag. 13. in the margent Iudg. 4 reade Iude. 4. pag. 23. line 12. read Veliphnei Iehouah ijshpok c. pag. 30. line 14. dutie reade vnitie pag. 40. in the margent reade Bale in Apoc. 2. Iraeneus c. pag. 65. line 25. reade were not in the primitiue c. pag. 99. Tit. 3. is to bee placed line 11. and line 19. should be Deut. 13. pag. 108. line 28. reade for instruction onely c. pag. 110. line 23. reade Inst. lib. 4. c. pag. 117. line 2. reade ignorantiam A PLAINE CONFVTATION OF A TREATISE OF Brownisme published by one of that Faction the Title whereof is this A true Description out of the word of God of the visible Church The Answere to the Title THE departure out of the Church is rightly called the badge of an heretike to whom in his going out the Goates do flie for succour when the sheepe of Christ do seeke their foode in the Church of Christ. But because it is a lesser burthen to beare the marke then to haue the name of an heretike it falleth out that men in all ages when they forsake the fellowshippe of the saintes of GOD they doe professe a betaking themselues vnto the true Church of God Heerevppon it commeth that such as haue beene nourished with the milke of discontentment strengthened with the spirite of vnquietnesse and cloathed with the profession of a godlie conscience do now trouble and molest vs refuse to continue with vs and make a nullitie of our Church Their eyes they say are now opened who liued vntill nowe in blindnesse they haue found out the true Church whereof they labour to be members in seeking our good they publish and set sorth vnto vs a true description thereof and this shall bee confirmed out of the word of God This their knowledge their loue and their faithfull dealings are warranted vnto vs
Apostle saith that as liuely stones they were made a spirituall house yet he saith not that euery one among them was so and those that were he declareth from whence it came to wit Iesus Christ. In which matter if no further purity be ment by the author we do agree as also that euerie one hath his burthen his order being boūd to edifie one an other exhort reproue and comfort one an other louingly as being members of one bodie and faithfully as in Gods sight The neglect of these duties hath bred nourished continued this late pestilent schisme amongst vs. That the affecting of offices the wresting or neglecting of laws peruerting of truth are not incident to the church is newes too good to be true as shal appere euen by the selfe same places of scripture which here are set in the margent as good proofes of the authors follies whiles that they do so flatly gainesay that which they should iustifie For manie make merchandize of the word 2. Cor. 2. 17. And Diotrephes loueth to haue the preheminence 3. Iohn 9. then is there affecting of offices In the latter times some shall speake lies through hipocrisie and haue their consciences burned with an hot iron 1. Timoth. 4. 2. And some desiring to make a faire shew in the flesh constraine men to be circumcised Galat. 6. 12. then is there peruerting of trueth The Corinthians were negligent in proceeding against the incestuous person 1. Cor. 5. then is there neglecting of lawes VVhat shall we then say to this man who woulde make the world beleue that the scriptures do confirme that which they do so directly and plainely deny Let him pronounce the sentence vpon him selfe He saith The prophet that hath a dreame let him tell a dreame and he that hath Gods word let him speake Gods word faithfully Ier. 23. 28. and so say I for it is a vile abuse that is offered to God and man when a dreame or fancie is countenaunced with the scriptures which doe ouerthrow it What is the chaffe to the wheat Timothie durst not thus behaue himselfe in Gods house 1. timoth. 3. 15. Euerie member of the church say they ought to haue freedome to vtter his complaintes and griefes yea and not disturbing the peaceable order of the church by passing the boundes of his calling to reproue transgressions and errors this we grant of our owne accord not being vrged hereunto by any thing mentioned 1. Corinth 6. or 14. 30. which proue it not but that the estate of the visible church is such that euerie member hath alwaies this freedome we deny it Also we say that as there may be intrusion or climing vp an other way into the sheepefold through mens corruptions then by the election of those to whome election doth belong so woulde it be a horrible cōfusion if the election of offices were left in the hands of the people as in this platforme of discipline they doe teach vs but that the people should haue their interest in ordination also is more then grosse For proofe whereof I will not stand vppon those places of Paule 1. Tim. 5. 22. lay not thy hand rashlie on anie man and Tit 15. for this cause left I thee at Creete that thou mightest appoint Elders in euerie citie because that although they flatly gainesay the ordination of Elders by the people yet they seeme not sufficient vnto some to infringe the libertie of the people in election also because that Luke shewing howe Paule and Barnabas appointed Elders in the churches saith that they did it by consent And it is not to be thought saith Caluin that Paule did grant a greater liberty to Timothie and Titus then he tooke vnto himselfe for which purpose is also alleged Ciprian who would vt sacerdos plebe presente sub omnium oculis deligatur atque dignus atque idoneus publico iudicio cōprobetur that the priest when the people are present be chosen in the sight of all be approued to be sufficient meete by common consent Vnto all which I say that euen these authorities of Luke Caluin and Ciprian do flatly deny that election should be made by the people for Praeesse electioni debere alios pastores nequid vel per leuitatē vel per mala studia vel per tumultū à multitudine peccetur Other pastors ought to rule the election lest the multitude faile either through lightnes or by euill practises or tumult so that howsoeuer it be granted by these places cited that a wise people ought to haue their cōsent in election yet if they be tumultuous ill cōditioned or void of grauity as generally the cōmon sort are fautie in one of these then ought other pastors to rule yea and ouerrule thē Those churches also which by the iudgement of our author himselfe are most reformed who admit not any thing of weight to be don inscia vel inuita ecclesia yet whatsoeuer pertaineth to the state of the church they haue the same disposed by the cōmon counsel of the Elder ship so that election is in their power the people consenting vnto them And therfore not to presse the authority of Chrisostom writing about the yere of our lord 500. saith flatly that neither people nor Elders were to elect a bishop or a minister but the bishop only neither election much lesse ordination ought to be at any time in the hands of the multitude furder then in giuing cosent vnto the pastors nor at all to be regarded if they be such as before haue bin mentioned and therfore as these men are vaine in arrogating more then this so are they vaine in censuring the churche of Englande for that it leaueth not this election vnto the people whose ignorance is generally great for want of instruction whose heads are generally very tumultuous by the meanes of such as this our author is VVhy are not they a holie and free people Indeede when Corah and his companie had gathered them selues togither against Moses and Aaron they said Ye take too much vpon you seeing all the congregation is holie euerie one of them and the Lord is among them But I doubt I should iniurie Corah by comparing these men vnto him for he vnder the pretense of holinesse and freedome sought onely to be priuiledged from submission but these our men vnder the same vaile content not thēselues herewith but in their aspiring minds do seeke to bring not the gouernement of the church onely but of the weale publike also into their handes for obtaining where of they lay this platforme first that priuatmen are to erect and establish this gouernment of theirs and then it being erected that all matters both ciuill and ecclesiastical are to be ordered by the same The later of these two pointes wil be manifest hereafter in their description of an Elder who as they say must discerne betweene plea and plea c. And as touching the former point
although in one of their writings which they haue dispersed they haue made this protestatiō We purpose not to medle with the reformation of the state otherwise then by our prayers vnto God yet as forgetting them selues immediately after in the same discourse they affirme that Christ hath left but one forme of gouernement in his last will and Testament vnto his church which he hath sealed with his bloud and therefore not left it arbitrable at the plesures of princes or policies of times to be done or vndone but made it by a double right inuiolable both by his vvord and his Testamēt so that the church of God can neither be gouerned by any other lawes or gouernement neither ought it to be without this for God holdeth them all in the state of enemies which haue not his sonne to raigne ouer them Now then the faithfull are cōmāded to gather togither in Christs name with promise of directiō protection authoritie not only to establish his lawes ordinances amōg thē but faithfully to gouern his church therby for the kingdom of God cōsisteth not in word but in power Now this assembly of the faithfull before they be planted established in this order cōsisteth hitherto but of priuate persons none as yet being called vnto office function Therefore we may well conclude that God cōmādeth his faithful seruants being as yet priuat men togither to build his church according to the true patterne of Christs Testament thus farre they But here is no word of God to proue any of these assertions we read of Asa Iehosaphat Iehoiada the priest Hezekia Iosia others some of them pulling downe the abominations of Iuda others setting vp the priests Leuits in their places in the house of God disposing thē as in the feere of God semed good in their eies but in the whole book of God is not to be found either precept or exāple to warrant a priuat man in purging much lesse in erecting the church of God Who then required these things at the hands of these men will they tell vs of extraordinary procedings in matters of extremity Let them shew herein some extraordinary testimony from God to warrant vs in regarding them otherwise here is in trusion For howsoeuer Zerubbabel Iehosuah Ezra Nehemia did daily pray for the restoring of the people out of captiuity were most willing ready to go before thē to bring them to Ierusalem yet vntill they had authority cōmitted to thē so to do by the kings of Persia Cirus Darius others they neuer durst attēpt the matter and yet we may truly say that these were no common persons Iehosua being the high priest Zerubbabel a chief mā of the people Ezra a scribe of the law Nehemia a great man yea in the court of Artashast but they al knew ful wel that Moses Aaron the prince and the priest must ioine together in all such actions Likewise in this church they haue holie lavves as limites and boundes vvhich it is lavvfull at no hand to transgresse they haue lavves to direct them in the choise of euerie officer vvhat kiude of them the Lord vvill haue Brownist This tautologie of the holy lawes of the church it is not so vnwisely iterated repeated but it is as foolishly also and fondly proued For Christ Matth. 5. 17. saying that he came not to destroy the lavve and the prophets but to fulfill them and Paul 1. Tim. 1. 18. giuing a commandement to Timothie which commandement is expressed what it is in the third fourth and fift verses of the same chapter doe not once speke of the churches lawes for outward direction as may appeare euidently to euery one that hath but a meane iudgement in the scriptures Ansvver Their pastor must be apt to teach no yong scholler able to diuide the word aright holding fast the faithfull word according to doctrine that he may be able also to exhort rebuke improue with wholesome doctrine and to conuince them that say against it he must be a man that loueth goodnes he must be wise righteoue holy temperate he must be of life vnreproueable as Gods steward he must be generally wel reported of and one that ruleth his owne householde vnder obedience with all honestie he must be modest humble meeke gentle and louing he must be a man of great patience compassion labour and diligence he must alwaies be carefull and watchfull ouer the flocke wherof the Lord hath made him ouerseer with all willingnes and cheerefulnes not holding his office in respect of persons but doing his duetie to euerie soule as he will answere before the chiefe shepheard c. Ansvvere In this descriptiō of the pastors office as the author hath set down some things therein required so hath he lefte other matters pertaining by his own doctrine thereunto altogether vntouched for whereas he telleth vs of an Eldershippe wherein the pastor is the chiefe here is nothing mentioned of this matter as if the ecclesiasticall censure remained as peculiar vnto the Elders Againe forasmuch as he requireth in a pastor that hee exhort rebuke and conuince the gayne-sayers of wholesome doctrine hee doth confirme herein that which hath ben said concerning the Doctor for either this functiō is not in the publik place of Gods worship or else it doeth intrude into the pastorall charge so these offices would not be seuered and diuerse Thirdly seeing modestie humilitie meeknes c. are necessarie in a Pastor Doctor Elder aud all we seee howe vnfitte these men are to beare anie office in the Church of God considering how farre they are from modestie meeknes or ciuill honestie when they call the ministerie of England traitors to Christ the Popes bastardes wicked guides Antichrists c. VVhen the booke of common praier is tearmed a peece of swines flesh and the people of Englande generally are accounted persecutors of the church of God no Christians Lastly we may obserue that some of these testimonies of Scripture in the margent are not so fit as might bee to proue the office of a pastor For Nu. 12. 3. doth speake of the meeknes of Moses but his was not a pastorall charge Esa. 50. 4. setteth foorth the Prophets diligence Zach. 7. 11. complaineth of the peoples obstinacie but what are these to proue the office of a pastor The place that is quoted 1. Tim. 2. 20. because it is somewhat after the end of the chapter it shall be answered when that verse is found Brownist Their Doctor or teacher must bee a man apt to teach able to diuide the word of God aright and to deliuer sound and wholsome doctrine frō the same still bulding vpon the same grounde worke he must be mightie in the Scriptures able to conuince the gainsaiers and carefully to deliuer his doctrine pure sound and plaine not vvith curiositie or affection but so that it may
studia in religione fieret diceretur in populis ego sum Pauli ego Appollo ego autem Cephae communi Presbyterorum concilio ecclesiae gubernabantur Postquam vero vnusquisque eos quos baptizauerat suos putabat esse non Christi in toto orbe decretumest vt vnus de Praesbyteris electus supponeretur ceteris ad quem omnis Ecclesiae cura pertineret An Elder is the same that a Bishoppe is and before that through the instigation of the deuill affection bare swaie in matters of religion and that it was said amongst the people I am of Paul I am of Apollo I am of Cephas the churches were gouerned by the common councell of the elders but after that euerie one thought that those whome hee baptized were his owne and not Christes it was deereed throughout the world that one of the elders should be set in the place of the rest to whome might pertaine the whole state of the Church If there be any help it must be had from the 2. Chro. 19. 8. for there it is thus writen Moreouer in Ierusalem Iehosaphat did appoint of the Leuites of the priests and of the chiefe of the families of Israel for the iudgements of the Lord and for strifes when they returned to Ierusalem By the iudgementes of the Lord are vnderstood those holy causes the knowledge whereof was committed to the priests Leuites by strifes are noted ciuil contentions the ending whereof pertained to the chiefe of the families of Israell This selfe same matter is expressed also Deut. 17. 9. If there arise a matter too hard for thee in iudgement betweene blood and blood plea and plea betweene plague and plague in the matters of controuersie within thy gates thou shalt then arise and go vp vnto the place which Iehoua thy God shall choose and thou shalt come vnto the priestes of the Leuites or vnto the iudge that shall be in those daies c. So that this disiunctiue or doth expresse a plaine difference betweene the office of the priest and the matters belonging to the iudge For althogh ve al hashpat be red in some translations to the iudge yet the twelft verse of this chapter doth end this controuersie where the disiunctiue or is set downe by an other worde That man that wil do presumptuously not harkning vnto the priest that stādeth before the Lord thy God to minister there o al hashpat or to the iudge shall dye For it is euident that bloud-shed pertained to the iudge the descrying of plagues vnto the priest Likewise contentions being about diuerse matters those that concerned ciuil affaires pertained to the tēporall iudge other matters of faith were to be decided by the ecclesiasticall cēsure so that althogh we shuld grant thē a seignorie yet all causes are not to bee brought into their consistorie In the meane time we see that these men being at defiance with popery haue here shewed vs a reason of it because the both of them would iudge all and would be iudged by none both wold priuiledge their owne deedes and haue the handling of the causes of all others and therefore as in the Papist so in these we may see a sottish ignorance with an arrogant and presumptuous spirit Brownist Their Deacont must be men of honest report hauing the mysterie of the faith in a pure conscience endued with the holie Ghost they must be graue temperate not giuen to excesse nor to filthie lucre Answere VVhereas the office of a Deacon is here mentioned as distinct from the former it had beene requisite for the author more fully to haue expressed his minde for as touching Deacons it is generallie graunted of all writers that they were in the primitiue Church such as our author doth here speake of One saith that Presbyteri Episcopi Diaconi hoc est ministri Christi Elders Bishops and deacons that is to saie the ministers of Christ were names giuen generally to those that had to instruct the people And for proofe thereof he alleadgeth that of Paul to Timothie Ten diaconian sou plerophoreson Fulfilling thy ministerie yet he was the disposer of Gods mysteries at Ephesus Annother saith Primum omnes docebant omnes baptizabant quibuscunque diebus vel temporibus fuisset occasio nec enim Philippus tempus quaesiuit aut diem quo Eunuchum baptizaret At the first all taught and al baptized when wheresoeuer occasion was offered neither did Philip staie for a time nor a daie wherein to baptize the Eunuch Athanasius expoundeth that of Paul 1. Tim. 3. 8. where the Deacon is willed not to be double tongued as if the deacon were a teacher in the word and he himself in describing how he fled for̄ the Arrians sayth thus Monui Diaconum vt recitaret Psalmum populum item vt auscultaret c. I willed the Deacon to reade a Psalme and the people also to giue eare Therefore although master Caluine saieth that Diaconi sub Episcopo pauperum essent oeconumi Deacons shoulde vnder the Bishoppes be prouiders for the poore Yet seeing they dealte in other matters also and were called Diaconi because they were ministers of the worde also our author should haue shewed vs when it was that these Deacons ceased to deale in other matters then in prouision for the poore onely or else hee shoulde haue tolde vs that there are two sortes of Deacons Diaconoi tou logou minister of the vvord and ministers or disposers of the goods of the poore And these thinges hee must haue prooued by Gods worde and then in this pointe hee had perfourmed his promise made in the Title of his booke and shevved himselfe to be so good as his owne worde but nowe by what authoritie hee hath affirmed by the same authority may be denied such an office as is here spoken of to be that Deacon which is mētioned in the places cited Act. 6. For Philip who was one of the Deacons did both teach and baptize Act. 8. which matter although we should graunt that he did it not as a deacon but being an Euangelist as some with this distinction would shifte off the matter yet must it bee confessed that the Deacons mentioned in the Actes were not discharged from dealing in the word onely to take vpon them the care of the poore Neither doeth Paul 1. Tit. 3. 8. speake anie thing to gainesaie this Yet I grant that in the Church of God a care of the poore must bee had and that there be faithfull men appointed for the same of whom the Apostle speaketh Rom. 12. 8. which place cannot bee referred vnto the liberalitie of al Christians in general as some haue taught For this is handled in the thirtenth verse of the same chapter which shoulde haue beene done if there were not a difference betweene the matter required in the eight verse which speketh of the publike officer and the thirteenth verse which extendeth it selfe to all Christians for
haue shewed that they without the rest were not to determine and also that supreame authority should be in them to controll both teacher and people being themselues priuiledged from the cēsures of other The office of the Ancients saith he is expressed in the description and in deede the matters heere spoken if and some of the quotations as Numb 11. 2. Chron. 19. are but repeated againe I wil therefore passe them ouer now Meat twife sodden hath little sweetenes in it And as for the other places of Scripture I will not seuerally handle them because they haue so small force in them to proue the matter whereunto they are applied That in the twētith of the Acts 1. Pet. 5 haue serued for the pastor once or twise wherein as I woulde haue him consider that a man may weary his frends by vsing them too often so he is to remember that therein he maketh no difference betweene a pastor and an elder The residue of the Scriptures are these Deut. 16. 18. where the appointing of Iudges Deut. 10. 16. where the circumcision of the hart is commanded The Apostle sheweth Timothie his dutie 1. Tim. 3. 15. and 2. Tim. 1. 13. he reproueth contention 1. Cor. 11. 16. 14. 33. sheweth his affection to the Galathians Gal. 2. 4. and the creation of all things to be by Iesus Christ Colos 1. 16. but what are all these for an Elder If it were not that Rom. 12. 8. were a frende at all assaies we should haue had iust occasion to complaine that all these places were abused whereas now we say that one among a dossen is reasonably wel applied although it can not be proued that euen this place speaketh of such rulers as now are in question Brownist The Deacons office is faithfullie to gather and collect by the ordinance of the church the goodes and boneuolence of the faithfull and by the same direction diligentlie and trustilie to distribute them according to the necessitie of the Saincts Further they must enquire and consider of the proportion of the wantes both of the officers and other poore and accordinglie relate vnto the church that prouision may be made The releuers and widdowes office is to minister vnto the sicke lame wearie and diseased such helpfull comfortes as they neede by watching tending and helping them Further they must shew good example to the younger women in sober modest godlie cōuersation auoiding idlenes vaine talke and light behauiour Answere These offices with their marginal quotations haue bene already considered of therefore auoiding so manie vaine rehearsals I referre the reader to that which had bin said of them before Brownist These officers though they be diuerse and seuerall yet are they not seuered least there shoulde be a diuision in the bodie but they are as members of the bodie hauing the same care one of an other iointly doing their seuerall duties to the seruice of the Saincts and to the edification of the bodie of Christ till we all meete together in the perfect measure of the fulnesse of Christ by whome all the bodie being in the meane while thus coupled and knit together by euerie ioint for the furniture thereof according to the effectuall power which is in the measure of euerie parte receaueth increase of the bodie vnto the edifyinge of it selfe in loue Neyther canne anie of these Offices bee wanting without grieuous lamenesse and apparant deformitie of the bodie yea violent iniurie to the heade Christ Iesus Ansvvere In these wordes are set downe these principal points first that in Gods church euerie member is to seeke the good one of an other and also to further the good of the whole bodie Secondly that a iarre in the members causeth a confusion of the bodie In both these we agree and do allowe the ninth of Luke vers 46. c. and Ioh 13. 12. c. as good proofs for them although it is to be obserued that neither of these places doe speake of these officers for such there were not among the disciples Thirdly we are told that as euerie member is to performe the duties of his calling so is he not to intrude into the function of others vnto this I also condescend not for that our author saith it inasmuch as he will not frame his actions according vnto it for doctore nihil frigidius qui verbis tantum philosophatur He which teacheth in word onely is a simple instructer but therefore we beleeue it bicause we are willed to walke in our callings and to admonish those that are vnruly such as will not abide in that place wherein the Lord hath set them Fourthly he saith that the necessitie of these officers is such that whereas one of them is wāting there is a grieuous lamenesse and apparant deformity of the bobodie c. and this is proued by 1. Cor. 12 and Ephesians 4. In both which places as other giftes and offices are set downe to haue bene in the church as 1. Cor. 12. Apostles prophets gifts of healing diuersities of tongues c. And Ephes. 4. Apostles prophets and euangelists so are not all these officers required by our author in those places spoken of but in the place to the Ephesians the pastor and doctor onely and in the Corinthes though hee would indeuour to wring out elders and deacons from thense yet must hee acknowledge that his widdowes are not mentioned Our author therefore may as well say that the want of the Apostles Euangelists gifts of healing and the rest doe cause deformitie of the bodie and that by these places by himself alleaged as doth the want of Elders Deacons releeuers Nay it hath bene alreadie proued that this gouernement was neuer to be imposed vppon all sortes of people alike and that the want of some of these offices haue neither bene deformitie in the bodie nor iniurie vnto the head This rather is an iniurie offered vnto Christ Iesus if either a priuat man should thrust himselfe into a publike calling of the magistracie or ministerie without his warrant as these Brownists doe both or if a publike magistrate shoulde prophane Gods ordinances by placing insufficient men in so high a roome as is the gouernment of the church which must be done if this bee true which these men speake And thus much of the discipline whereby the visible Churche as they say shoulde bee gouerned for we are now once againe come to the conclusion of this part Brownist Thus this holie armie of Saints is marshalled here in earth by those officers vnder the conduct of their glorious Emperour Christ that victorious Michael Thus it marcheth in that most heauenly and gratious araie against all enemies both bodilie and ghostlie Peaceable in it selfe as Ierusalem terrible vnto them as an army with banners triumphing ouer their tyrannie with patience and ouer death it selfe with dying Thus thorough the bloud of that spotlesse
may bee confirmed And if hee refuse to heare them then to declare the matter vnto the church which ought seuerelie and sharplie to reprehend grauelie to admonish and louinglie to perswade the partie offending shewing him the hainousnesse of his offence and the danger of his obstinacie and the feareful iudgements of the Lord. If this preuaile not to drawe him to repentance then are they in the name of the Lord Iesus with the whole congregation reuerentlie in praier to proceed to excommunication casting him out of their congregation and fellowship that is out of the couenant and protection of the Lorde for his disobedience and obstinacie and committing him to sathan for the destruction of the flesh that the spirite may be saued in the daie of the Lorde Iesus if such be his goodwill and pleasure Further they are to warne the whole congregation and all other faithfull to hold him as a heathen and a publican and to abstaine them selues from his societie as not to eate or drinke with him c. vnlesse it be such as of necessitie must needs as his wife his children and family yet these if they be members of the church are not to ioyne with him in anie spirituall exercise All this notwithstanding the church is not to holde him as an enemie but to admonish and pray for him as a brother prouing if at any time the Lord will giue him repentance for this power is not giuen them to the destruction of anie but to the edification and preseruation of all If the offence bee publike the partie is publikely to be reproued and admonished if he then repent not to proceede to excommunication Vt supra The repentance of the partie must bee proportionable to the offence viz. if the offence be publike publike if priuate priuate humbled submissiue sorrowfull vnfeined giuing glorie to the Lord. There must great care be had of admonitions that they be not captious or curious finding fault where none is neither yet in bitternesse or reproch for they were to destroy and not to saue our brother but they must be carefully done with prayer going before they must be seasoned with truth grauitie loue peace Moreouer in this church is an especiall care had by euerie member thereof of offences the strong ought not to offend the weake nor the weake to iudge the strong but all graces here are giuen to the seruice and edification of ech other in loue and long suffring Answere I thought it conuenient to ioyne al this togither being but one matter viz. the proceeding of the church and of euerie member thereof Concerning the which I say with them that God hath not onely giuen a charge to euerie member of the church to looke vnto his steppes that he refraine from offending his fellow members least thorough his owne default the church be prouoked to proceed against him but also hath prescribed vnto the Church her order of proceeding which order I grant to be here set downe in part namely so long as the conuersations of men are in question but in matters of faith these rules will faile for although it be the nature of man to erre in his errors we may not depriue him of admonitions yet if his error do proue an heresie after once or twice admonitiō at the vtmost he is to be reiected For a simple error may be healed but peruersnesse is incurable and the manner of his reiection is not in a bare forsaking of him but in restraining him least that by his false doctrine the simple sort be seduced I speake not now of the Magistrates authoritie who was commanded by the Lord to cut off the false prophet but I speake of the ecclesiasticall power which hath his warāt for the suppressing of such the order of whose proceeding is first admonition then excommunication afterwards to make the magistrate acquainted both with this euill and with his duety in proceeding against it for I will not vrge that of master Bullinger who seemeth to go farther in asking this question viz. if the church had onely authoritie to flie from and not to chastice an heretike how came it to passe that the Apostle Paul by the power of God depriued Elimas of his sight bicause he did stubbernly maintaine falshood and withstand the truth But this point of discipline hath in wisedome bene passed ouer least that our author shuld therin haue blamed both our teachers and our Magistrates for their to much lenitie in this schisme and heresie Now as touching the florish that is made with a great shew of scriptures in the margent it is more then childish not in regard of applying them though one or two of them might be amended but in respect of the vaine alledging of one scripture often as Matth. 18. 15. 16. Leuiticus 19. 17. 18. Prou. 10. 12. c. but he would haue vs to thinke that he is read in the scriptures and therefore busieth himselfe with iterating so manie quotations Brownist In this church is the truth purely taught surely kept here is the couenant of the sacraments and promises the graces the glorie the presence the worship of God Into this Temple entreth no vncleane thing neither whatsoeuer worketh abhominations or lies but they which are written in the Lambes booke of life But without this church shal be dogges and enchanters and whoremongers and murtherers and Idolaters and whosoeuer loueth and maketh lies Answere Here we haue described vnto vs the state wherein this visible church doth stand both in regard of the conenant betweene God and it and also in respect of the sanctimonie thereof in the sight of men As for the former of these it is to be granted but howsoeuer the promises are made vnto the church and the worship approoued of God is kept and retained therein yet may it fall out that some one member thereof may haue no interest in the promises as Matth. 22. 13. nor yet be a true worshipper of God as Eccles. 4. 17 And although the church hath this dignitie giuen vnto it thorow an especiall grace yet some one man who is not of the visible church may be partaker of the promises and a true worshipper of God as Naaman the Syrian and Iob in the land of Hus the visible church then being among the people of Israel As touching the other matter viz. that this church apparant is commended vnto vs both for the puritie thereof in it selfe and also for the vncleannesse of all those which are not members of the same It is a palpable grosnes to conceiue a sottish follie to publish such a dreame For are al they cleane which enter into the visible church these men themselues haue confessed the contrarie Are all the members of the visible church written in the lambs booke of life who
then blotted out Cain Esau Corah yea and Israel it selfe Againe is it true that all those which are not vnder this gouernement are dogs c. I will not aske what shall become of these men themselues but what is become of Peter and the rest that remained with Christ and of all the churches of Ierusalem Ephesus Corinth and the rest which had not this gouernement and all these offices at any time among them for some wanted Deacons some widows some vnministring Elders some Doctors To draw to an end The scriptures that are alledged to proue these matters are either promises of that full redemption which is obtained and shall be perfited vnto the church in the day of Christs appearing as Esa. 52. 1. and 35. 8. and Reuelation 28. 27. or else are they types thereof as Eze. 44. and the ninth verse and Zacharie 14. 21. VVherefore they cannot proue the truth hereof in the visible church of God Also Reuel 22. 15. sheweth the estate of the vngodly which in the day of that generall search shall be thrust out of the presence of God VVhich matter Paul doth plainly shew Rom. 2. 9. for hee threatneth oppression and anguishe vnto euerie soule that doth euill whether Iew or Greeke that is whether of the visible Church or not In this one thing these men may be commended that seeing their assertions cannot bee warranted by the woorde of of God they will doe the best they can to make their sayings true in themselues For surely they coulde not possiblie giue ouer themselues vnto a doggish disposition as they do if they were not perswaded that in so dooing the conditions of men which haue cast off gouernement should in thē be made manifest vnto the world VVee are therefore to desire for them that discipline may be put in practise if happely they may bee brought to some good order Thus haue we seene how the Author of this Treatise hath failed in the perfourmance of his promise made in the title thereof A MANIFESTATION OF THE INCONSTANCIE of Brownisme grathered out of two Treatises lately dispersed throughout the land AThanasius speaking of the Eusebian hereticke saith that if once he tast the Arrian schisme he will neuer refraine his tongue from vngodlinesse He noteth it also as a common disease in all heretikes that they will be constant in a peeuish wilfulnesse least they should be condemned of those whom they haue seduced yet in all other things inconstant Nunc probantes quod dicunt mox vero vituperātes quod dixerunt ac rursum approbantes quod paulo ante calumniabantur It is no maruell therfore though the factioners of our age hauing auouched their owne dreames to be the truth of God do now cry out y t they are blasphemed abused slādered if the same be laid to their charge yet in discoursing vpon the self-same matters they wil not stick to iustifie their first conceipts al which may appeare to him that readeth the two pamphlets lately by them published the one intituled A collection of certaine slanderous Articles and the other A collection of certaine articles and conferences c. For in these bookes we shall finde the certaintie of doctrine what it is amongst conceited diuines And that the truth may be more euident I wil set downe first their Articles which sometimes they did hold and now are charged with Secondly the sore complaints that they make of being slandered with them by our Bishops Thirdly what small cause they haue to complaine considering that they are now resolute to defend the same Articles vnto the death And lastly the fondnesse of their assertions which for the auoiding of tediousnes shalbe done either by referring the Reader vnto those places where these matters are handled elsewhere or else by plaine and euident proofes The Articles which are so iniuriously imputed vnto them as they themselues haue published are these 1 THat it is not lavvfull to vse the Lords praier publikelie in the church for a set forme of praier 2 Secondlie that all set and stinted praiers are meere babling in the sight of the Lord not to be vsed in publike Christian assemblies 3 Thirdly that the publique praiers and vvorship of God in England as it is by lavv in the church of England established is false superstitious popish and not to be vsed in anie Christian congregation 4 That the Church of England as it is novv established is no entire member of the church of Christ. 5 That the gouernment of the church of England as it is novv established is no lavvfull gouernement nor christian but antichristian and popish 6 That the Sacraments of baptisme the Lords supper as they are administred in the church of England be not true sacraments 7 That infants ought not to be baptised according to the forme of baptisme ministred novv in the church of England but are rather to be kept vnbaptised 8 Manie of them make scruple to affirme that the Queenes maiestie hath supreame authoritie to gouerne the church of England in cases ecclesiasticall and to make lavves ecclesiasticall not contrarie to Christs lavves 9 That the lavves ecclesiasticall alreadie established by the authoritie of the queene realme be not lavvfull 10 That if the Prince or magistrate vnder her do refuse or defer to reforme such faults as are amisse in the church the people maie take the reforming of them into their ovvne hands before or vvithout her authoritie 11 That the presbiterie or eldership maie for some causes after admonition if there ensue not reformation excommunicate the Queene 12 That the Church of England as it novv standeth by lavv established professeth not a true Christ nor true religion that it hath no ministers in deed nor Sacraments in deed Now they complaine that they are much abused in being charged with these matters for the title of one of the Treatises is A collection of certaine slanderous articles giuen out by the bishops against such faithful Christians as they now vniustly detaine in their prisons c. The Epistle saith that there are spersed abroad throughout the land certaine articles of the bishops owne deuising against these men to bring them into hatred vvith the vvhole land The Author in answering the said Articles termeth them forged positions Again God forbid saith he that our Magistrates should be guiltie of our innocent blood by such slanderous reports To be short master Barrow as he himselfe reporteth complained to Doctor Androwes that he hath bene greeuouslie slandred blasphemed and accused by spearsed articles c. therefore a great fault there is in those which offer these persecuted Christians for so they terme themselues this great iniurie or else in them who if the Black-amore could change his hue would deny their owne opinions but if they giue the lie vnto vs without iust cause as it shall appeare that they do by that which followeth and maintaine these things which thus confidētly they haue denied
in crying out they are slandered then wil it also be cōfessed that they are not persecuted Christians but vnbridled factioners For these are no slanderous positions as they say forged against them by the bishops but phantasticall assertions first deuised and now againe confirmed by themselues as by their seuerall handling of the seuerall Articles they do shew To the first Article therefore they say that neither the Lords Prayer nor any other praier in the scriptures may be vsed but by explication Also that they serue onely for instruction Againe That the verie forme of words as they are in these petitions was giuen and instituted as a set and stinted prayer we finde not in the scriptures Also to vse it for a set prayer is say they a stinting of the holy Ghost Now if these assertions do not agree with the Article and testifie that they do hold it they haue the greater cause to complaine but I see no difference betwene the one the other Now the folly of this Article is manifest in this that the Lords prayer was giuen for the same end y e other prayers were in the canonicall scripture but other prayers were not for instruction as hath bin shewed before pag. 23. I need not make the conclusion And as touching their denying the forme of praier which Christ gaue to his disciples to be his praier because we reade not that he euer vsed it And their accusing vs to be falsifiers of the text when we call it the Lords Prayer If it were not a strife about words I would say more whereas now I wil onely put them in minde that we haue learned this phrase of the holy Ghost who calleth the prayers which God hath taught and doth approue his prayers as Esa. 56. 7. I vvil make them glad bebeth tepillati in the house of my prayer for there it is called the Lords prayer not for that he vsed it but because he prescribed it And why then may not we in like sort cal this the Lords praier in as much as he hath taught it but of this enough lest it be said of vs para men gar hemin esti logoma chia c To the 2. article they say that the canonicall praiers commended to vs by Gods spirite haue this onely vse that they serue for instruction And that our morning and euening praiers are not onely a babling but apocriphall and idolatrous c. So that neither canonicall nor other praiers that are prescribed are deemed lawfull to be vsed for praiers in the sight of the Lord. Whereby it is made manifest that they are not vniustly charged with this Article Which notwithstanding is but a false assertion considering that sette praiers were vsed vnder the lawe are not forbidden in the gospell and are also vsed in all reformed churches vntil this daie To the 3. article they saie that our liturgie is drawen out of the Popes portuise is not onely idolatrous superstious and a deuised worship but a bundle of infinite grosse blasphemous errours a Pseudodiathesis a counterfet gospell an idoll and huge Chaos of long gathered and patched absurdities a new gospel a masse booke and what not How then are they slandered when it is sayde that they account our worship of God as it is now established to be false superstitious and popish But the best is these calumniations are not greatly to be regarded for if they need not to be ashamed of learning the truth of Donatus who was a schismatical heretique wee haue as small cause to cast awaie good things though it could be proued as it is not that we had taken them from an heretike And though no worke of man and so not our booke of publike praier can be free from all blemishes the Lord reseruing this glorie to himselfe that hee will bee acknowledged perfectly wise and his workes onely voide of imperfection yet so farre is this booke from deseruing these great reproches that it beeing compared with the best treatise that these disturbers haue brought forth the most grosse and blasphemous error which they cā proue therin may be iustified in cōparison of many that are deliuered for sound doctrine in their pamphlets if both of thē be right vnderstood To the 4. they say that it being subiect to the vvorship aforesaid cōsisting of al sorts of vnclen spirits atheists papists heretikes c. it is not a true mēber of the bodie of Christ. It is not thē blasphemy to charge thē with this 4. article And whether they haue cause to hold it vppon this ground or not shal be euident hereafter To the fifth article It is euident to al men saie they and confessed of our enimies that the ministers laws and other ordinances whereby the parish assemblies are gouerned are not such as Christ appointed to his church of pastor c. but by such officers courts and canons as are hatched from Rome Do they not then iustifie this article wherin as in others they cōplaine they are slandered yet in as much as they are constāt in it let thē proue by the word of God both their discipline to be good also our gouernmēt to be Antichristian which they will hardlie afford considering that before the time of papacy there were these offices in the church which these men terme Antichrististian as M. Caluin testifieth Inst. li. 5. ca. 4. se. 4. whose authoritie I vse with these men because I finde that they themselues haue alleaged the same To the 6. article they saie that vve neither hauing a lavvfull ministerie nor faithfull holie free people c. the sacraments in our assemblies deliuered are no true sacraments nor seales vvith promise How thē can these men without blushing put this article in the nūber of forged positiōs for cōsidering that they make their iudgments knowen concerning this point I maruell more they are not ashamed to denie it then I do that some of them Donatist like haue desired to be baptised again The answer to this wilbe easie by that which foloweth in the answer to the 3 brāch of the 5. argumēt To the seauenth they say that no godlie Christians separate from the false church ought to bring their infants to these parish assemblies to bee baptised into that fellovvship and profession c. These wordes do iustifie our Bishops in charging these men with this article The substance whereof seeing it doth depend vpon the former article the follies of it being perceaued the want of wisedom in this will soone be descried To the eight they say that all true christians vvithin her maiestie dominions acknovvledge her Maiestie to be the supreame magistrate and gouernes ouer all persons within the church and without the church yea ouer all causes ecclesiasticall and ciuill Which assertion if it had bene receiued of the whole sect then it had bene a slander in deed but in as much as in an assembly of aboue twentie persons it was concluded that her Maiestie is
not supreame head of the church neither hath authoritie to make lawes ecclesiastical in the church they must acknowledge a dissent of iudgment amongst themselues or else confesse that there was a time when they were of another opinion but now they haue learned to be more wise yet the caueat that is giuen hath a secret meaning viz. a granting of the latter part of this article that her maiestie hath no authoritie to make anie lawes ecclesiasticall But this being so closely couered I minde not to see it I conceiue the best namely that as they yeelde more to her maiestie then of former times they haue done so will they in time grant her that right which is due vnto her roiall authoritie Of the ninth article they saie that the lavves ecclesiasticall vvherevvith our assemblies are guided are not deriued from the booke of God but culled out from that great Antichrists canons orders deuillish pollicies c. that they are the execrable wares of Antichrist statuts of Omry not to be receiued or obeied of anie that loue the Lord Iesus This article then is maintained by these men and not vniustly imputed to them But as touching this grieuous accusation we are here also to call to minde that the lawes of God are onely perfect the decrees and statutes of men though holy yet haue their wants In regard wherof I doe acknowledge a want of perfection but the deformitie of these laws doth seeme greater partly by the meanes of such as shoulde dispose them more vprightly and partly by reason of others who haue a malitious eie in beholding and an enuious tongue in reproching them Vnto the tenth article they answere that they neither looke for the reformation of Babel our false Church for so they tearme it nor take vpon them to intermeddle with the magistrates swoord but all that will bee saued must forsake the false church and by repentance come vnder Christs obedience to serue God aright in his true church c. Neither may they neglect the seruice of GOD nor the practise of any parte thereof c. Though the Prince shoulde inhibite c. So that they affirme that of their owne authority they are not only to separate themselues from vs but also to prctaise the discipline which they haue fansied though her maiestie shoulde inhibite the one or commaunde the other so that this article is not wrongfully fathered vpon them But before this article be granted vnto them as a true position they must not onelie conuince our church as out of the which there ought to be a departure but also they must proue that a priuate man may attempt reformation in the church contrarie to that which hath bene spoken To the eleuenth article they saie first that the presbyterie may not excommunicate any person by their sole power seeing Christ hath giuen this power to the whole church This is made more plaine in an other place where one of them saith that the least member of the church that is a communicant hath as much interest in all the censures of the church as the pastor Secondly they affirme that the prince if he will be a member of the church must be subiect to the censure in the church The which two positions being considered it shall be needlesse to open what these men would haue but of the authoritie of a priuat man hath ben spoken sufficiently heretofore To the twelfth they answer roundly in this sort as for your religion church sacramentes c. vve haue before shevved the forgerie of them vnto the vvhich former articles I referre the reader Euen so do I for I purpose not palinodiam canâ—re onely I say that amongst these twelue articles there is not one wherewith they are abused or vniustly charged and therefore are their exclamations before mentioned vaine There are in the ende of the foresaid pamphlet other twelue articles not vnlike to the former which they tearme slanderous articles also forged against them as if they did not hold them which are these 1 THey hold that the Lords praier or anie set praier is blasphemie and they neuer vse anie praier for the Queene as supreame head vnder Christ of the church of England 2 That all set praiers or stinted praies or read seruice are but meere babling in Gods sight and plaine Idolatrie 3 They teach there is no head or supreame gouernor of the church of Christ and that the Queene hath none authoritie in the church to make lavves ecclesiasticall 4 They teach that a laie man may beget faith and that vve haue no need of publike administration 5 They condemne all comming to Church al preaching all institution of Sacraments and saie that all the ministers vvere sent by God in his anger to deceiue the people 6 They affirme that the people must reforme the church and not tarie for the magistrate and that the Primitiue church sued not to courts and parliaments nor vvaited vpon princes pleasures but vve make Christ to attend vppoÌ„ princes to be subiect to their lavvs gouernment 7 That the booke of common praier is a pregnant Idol full of abhominations a peece of svvines flesh and abhomination to the Lord. 8 They saie it is a greater sinne to go to the church to publik praiers then for a maÌ„ to lie vvith his fathers vvife 9 Those that vvil not refrain from our churches preaching or seruice they giue vnto the deuil excoÌ„municat 10 They hold it not lavvfull to baptise children among vs they neuer haue anie sacrament among them 11 They refuse to take an oath to be examined 12 They vvill not marrie amongst vs in our churches but resort to the Fleet to other places to bee married by one Greenwood and Barrow All which whether these men are vniustly blamed with them or do hold them as firme as they do the former Articles I leaue vnto the consideration of all men Their iudgemeÌ„t coÌ„cerning the two first articles hath bene set downe alredie for they do little differ from those two positions set downe in the former place Likewise concerning the third article we haue had their minde in the eight article so that it shall be needlesse either to shew again that those are by their desert imputed vnto them or that in maintaining theÌ„ their warrants be of smal force And the fourth article is so far from being an vngodly calumniation against theÌ„ y t they hold it not only a possible thing for a priuate man to beget faith but also lawfull for him to preach the word interpret the scriptures in publike assemblies Wherin a question might be moued what is the differeÌ„ce betwene him y t is Leitourgos a minister of Christ in their publike functioÌ„ euery priuate man in the congregation both hauing equall authoritie as well in preaching as in the censures of the church Also what these priuate men are to be esteemed in preaching whether ministers or no ministers vnto the people whom
they teach mutuall exhortations I grant to be necessarie amongst the people of God wherby the faith of the godly may be encreased whereof is mention made Act. 18. 26. 1. Pet. 4. 10. 1. Thess. 5. 11. And the euils in others might be restrained wherof Iames speaketh Cap. 5. 19. 20. And Paul 1. Cor. 7. 16. For as I yeeld vnto the author of this discourse that these fiue places of scripture do proue one and the same matter so I hope he will call home his wits grant vnto me that they proue not a preaching in the publike assemblie considering that the woman of whom this dutie of exhorting is required 1. Cor. 7. 16. is not allowed to speake in the congregation The other places of scriptures alledged viz. Luk. 10. and 1. Cor. 14. do mention a publike dealing with the word but neither were the 70. when Christ sent forth priuate men nor yet the others spoken of in the Corinthes where he speaketh not of all the faithfull but of all the Prophets as master Caluin also noteth vpon that place that in Luk. 8. 39. Act. 8. 4. and 11. 19. can make nothing for this matter vntill it be proued that the men there mentioned first were priuate men 2. executed a ministery in the publike assemblie and lastly had no extraordinarie sending forth The place of Paul Philip. 2. verse 15. and 16. speaketh not of preaching but of the conuersation which should be such in the middest of a froward people as might be a meanes to winne them without the word who had no care of the word The other place 1. Pet. 3. 2. pertaineth nothing to the matter in question so that as yet it remaineth vnprooued that a priuate man may preach in the congregation Of which matter Master Caluin speaketh Instit. lib. 4. cap. 3. sect 10. and if they may not preach then can they not beget faith for none can be called to the true faith without the preaching of the gospel as they themselues haue affirmed in their last conference with Doctor Andrewes Therefore this is not a slanderous article to bring them into hatred vniustlie but a blind deuise to bring confusion into the church The fift article here set downe and the seuenth are the same with that which was set in the third place in the beginning The sixt article being all one with the tenth of the former sort hath also bene considered of To the 8. article they saie that to go to the church to publike praiers is a high sinne against the first table which being but a begging of the question they must first proue our worship to be idolatrie before their calumniation is to be harkened vnto To the ninth they say that they iudge not them that are without but those that hauing left all false assemblies c. haue ioyned with them c. And if among them any fall into error them do they excommunicate As here is no slander so may we see the confusion of their doctrine and their practises to be accordingly First the priuate man hath as much authoritie in the censures of their church as Pastor Elder or any other Secondly that their church hath authoritie ouer those that haue ioyned with them from these sweete positions haue sprong this excellent harmonie that euerie man presumeth amongst them to excommunicate one another as hath bin seene and is dayly manifest both in the Clinke and other prisons for as Theodoret saith ex ipsa ignoraÌ„tiam pestem superbie contraxerunt Ignorance hath brought them to pride which he compareth vnto the plague because as it infecteth the bodie so pride peruerteth the mind for from it do spring a stubborne disobedience towards others hypocrisie seeking glorie in outward apparance wilfulnesse in defending the euill least their error should appeare discord ech man labouring to be singular deuise of nouelties c. And therefore it is no wonder to behold the readinesse of euerie of them in casting off submission boasting of godlines and maintaining falshood yet whiles euerie man affecteth glorie by new deuises the dissention is such that one sort excommunicateth another and the excommunicated do the like for the other that euen the Papists who behold the same in their prisons laugh at such confusion The tenth article is all one with the sixt in the former number To the 11 they say that they refuse not an oath by the holy name of God 2. before a lawful Magistrate 3. vpon iust occasion according to the word but our oathes they say are rash and vngodly First by or with a booke Secondly offred enforced by the Bishops Thirdly at their pleasure vpon euery occasion contrary to the word of God the lawes of the land derogatorie to her Maiesties prerogatiue royall so that if we say that these men refuse to take an oath according to the laws of our land it wil appere no slander Now coÌ„cerning their iudgmeÌ„t we agree with them that the Lord condemneth all false rash and vngodly oathes that is such oathes as are in matters of vntruth in things of small importance and by taking any other to witnesse but God onely for the which may be alledged Deut. 6. 13. Ierem. 4. 2. Heb. 6. 16. and many others Herein we dissent first that they seeme to allow an oath before a magistrate onely wherein they condemne the deede of Iacob and Laban Gen. 31. 53. and of â—oos to Ruth Ruth 3. 13. and of Obadia to Eliah 1. Reg. 18. 10. who being all but priuat persons yet doe confirme with an oath the matters in question betwene them Secondly that they will not acknowledge those to haue authoritie to take an oath to whom her maiestie hath committed the same Thirdly that they condemne the forme of swearing before the magistrate which by the laws of Englang is vsed for as Abraham in vrging his seruant Eleazar to sweare Gen. 24. 2. and Iacob taking an oath of Ioseph Gen. 47. 29. said Put thine hand vnder my thigh a ceremonie vsed among the Ethiopians and Indians vntill this day can not be charged to haue vsed an idolatrous rite inasmuch as the oath was not taken by the thigh but by the God of heauen and the creator of the earth so likewise the hand is laid vpon the booke the oath is not vrged to be taken by the booke but by him whom the doctrine of that booke maketh knowne vnto vs of both which rites we neede not feare to say Prophanos ritus non esse qui Dei gloriae quicquam detraherent quia interponitur Dei nomen c. Neither do the places of Scripture cited infringe this for Amo. 5. 4. is not at all spoken of an oath but generally that men shoulde seeke out that which is good and not euill The other three places viz. Zoph 1. 5. Matth. 5. 34. and 23. 16. disproue not an outward ceremony in an oath onely Zephanie telleth that God condemneth those which doe outwardly worshippe Idols though they
entrance vnto the Crowne as the visible Church in all ages from the beginning hath afforded Brownist They are not gathered in the name of Christ but in the name of Antichrist vvhom they obey as shall aftervvard appeare Therefore c. Ansvvere The Argument is this The true church is gathered in the name of Christ but the church of England is not c. Therefore not the true church The proposition is granted the Assumption is denied in asmuch as we do renounce the doctrine gouernment worship of Antichrist as shalbe shewed in the places where they labor to proue the contrary Brownist They vvorship not God truely but after a false and idolatrus manner as vvitnesseth their Popish liturgie their stinted booke of common praiers Therefore c. The Argument standeth this The true church worshipeth God truely but the church of England doth not Therefore it is no true church I grant the proposition yet with this caueat that not euery mēber of the visible church performeth this dutie and that the true worship of God offered vnto him by man thorough the frailtie of man is not without great wants The matter of the assumption hath bene dealt in pag. 21. And they receiue not nor obey not Christ as their king priest and prophet Therefore c. This argument is diuided into three seuerall parts in this manner Not as their king reiecting his gouernement and receiuing and standing vnder the antichristian yoke of their Popish gruernment Therefore c. The force of the reason is this The true church obeyeth Christ as her king and reteineth his gouernement but the church of England doth not Therefore no true church We are to remember that the question is of outward gouernment which hath bene shewed pag. 25. not to be the life of the church but the word onely Herevnto we ad their own confession that the true church may be vvithout sacraments which we hold as necessarie as outward gouernment But we are here charged with a double crime viz. with the casting of Christs gouernment and with the receiuing the yoke of Antichrist To the first whereof I answere that if pastors Doctors and Elders and Deacons be the gouernement of Christ we haue it in as much as the matter required in all these offices is retained with vs if these be abused by men it is not sufficient to proue that we haue them not at all if strife be about the changing of the names wise men will condemne it for follie To the second I answere that her maiestie is supreame gouernesse ouer vs in all causes both ecclesiasticall and ciuill and therefore hath authoritie to appoint such gouernors to confirme that gouernment which being not contrarie vnto Gods word shall seeme meete vnto hir Nowe this gouernement which we haue else where is shewed to haue bene for the preseruation of discipline and auoiding confusion before the time that Antichrist bare sway in the church I grant that afterward he abused it so did he many other matters and yet they are not to be counted Antichristian hauing not their beginning of him when they are restored vnto their first vse But this one calumniation bringeth foorth these fruites First in teaching that euery priuat man hath authority in the election of ecclesiasticall gouernors or else the gouernement is Antichristian the priuat man is taught to intrude into her highnesse right to whome this matter was granted by Act of Parlement 1. Eliz. 1. Againe in disswading from the obedience of this authority the cōmandement of God is made no commandement Ro. 13. 1. which willeth that euery soule be subiect vnto the higher powers And as Absolon with Dauid so do these men deale with her maiesty in seeking to alienate the harts of good subiects from her by crying out against her gouernment promising better things if they be harkned vnto that mē might be brought to ioyne in their rebellions We shun the Iesuites who from house to house do labour to draw the people into a loathing of their present estate this natiue schisme is so muche the more to bee looked vnto as it commeth with a greater shew of godlinesse and yet indeuoreth to worke confusion by these Iesuiticall proceedings Brownist Not as their Priest sacrilegiously prophaning his name vvith their idolatrie prostituting his blood and making him a Priest and sacrifice to infidels and the most vvicked offenders Ansvvere The Argument is thus The true church receiueth Christ as their Priest but the church of England doth not because it prophaneth his name c. Therefore no true church The assumtion is false for the doctrin of our church is that Christ is the onely Priest who by his owne blood entred in once into the holy place and obtained eternall redemption for vs and therefore that men should walke worthy of so holy a calling as Christ hath vouchsafed to set them in neither in their worshipping of God prophaning his name not by their vngodlinesse abusing his sacraments wherein the practise by our church commanded is that prophane vngodly men be repelled from the same It is not therfore a matter to be generally laid vnto the charge of the whole church that they prophane his name c. I grant indeed that the Pastor may thorow ignorance negligence or some other euill occasion deliuer the sactament to an vnworthy man which as it is a sinne in the receiuer so may it be as great a sinne in the deliuerer yet will this be a weake reason to conuince the whole church of prostituting the blood of Christ denying his priesthood prophaning his name c. seing that Iudas was partaker of the supper of the Lord and yet the whole companie were not polluted thereby Brownist Not as their prophet giuing no obedience to his vvord vsing it as a mantell to couer their sinne rather then as a rule vvherby to direct their liues not seeking a true ministerie but maintaining a false of vvhich sort the vvhole ministererie of the land is vvhich are permitted to teach in their publike places to vvhom they giue eare Ansvvere The Argument is this The true church receiueth Christ as her prophet but the church of England doth not c. Therefore c. The assumption of which argument they proue thus First because the church of England giueth no obedience to his word Secondly because they vse it as a mantle to couer their sinne and thirdlie because they seeke not a true ministerie but maintaine a false It hath heretofore bene granted that the best churches haue had some bad members in them whereof some in Athiesme despised the word others in hipocrisie made it a cloake to couer their vngodlinesse wherein the church of England goeth not scotfree but for the wickednes of some to condeme the whole were verie hard and so sharpely to censure all were intollerable Yet these men do it when they affirme that no obedience is giuen to the word as if all from the
A PLAINE CONFVTATION OF A TREATISE OF BROVVNISME Published by some of that Faction Entituled A description of the visible Church In the confutation whereof is shewed that the Author hath neither described a true gouernment of the Church nor yet proued that outward discipline is the life of the Church Whereunto is annexed an answere vnto two other Pamphlets by the said Factioners latelie dispersed of certaine conferences had with some of them in prison Wherein is made knowen the inconstancie of this Sect what the Articles are which they still maintaine as also a short confutation of them There is also added a short ansvvere vnto such argumentes as they haue vsed to proue the Church of England not to be the Church of God LONDON Printed by Thomas Scarlet for William Wright 1590. TO THE RIGHT HONOrable Sir Thomas Henedge Knight Vize Chamberlaine to her Highnes Treasurer of her Maiesties chamber Chanceller of the Dutchie of Lancaster and one of her Highnes most honorable priuie Councell the comforts of this life and of the life to come COnsidring that right Honorable the making of many bookes doth breeda wearisomnesse with smal profit the councell of Salomon is to bee regarded who willeth vs to receiue admonition by his holie writings In regard whereof though hereticall pamphlets are dailie dispersed yet the wise are loth to answer thē as also lest that in answring the fole according to his follies they might seem like vnto him yet when silence hath hardned the factious and emboldned them to adde new supplies we learne that the foole is to be answered vnto his follies lest he seeme wise in his own conceit This burden I haue taken vpon me perhaps presumptuouslie but finding on the one side the learned vnwilling to deale with so sottish a schisme and on the other side that small learning wil be sufficient to ouerthrow so ignorāt a sect I haue bin the more bold in this mine attēpt for I preiudice not the wise herein who refuse this labor nor yet giue cause of discontētment to the simple for whose sake onely I haue done it if those with whom I deale find themselues grieued I regard it not onely if I may escape the censure of rash presumptiō in publishing this rude treatise vnder your honorable title I shall obtaine my desire I haue presumed to present it to your H. not for that I am able to bring forth anie thing worthie your H. acceptation but that I might obtain a defence for my self your H. might be moued to go on in furthering the Lordes building So shall God by your meanes be glorified his church comforted and euerie member thereof shall haue iust cause to continue their heartie praiers vnto God for your H. prosperitie with the increase of all heauenlie giftes graces of his spirit in this life for the assurance of your euerlasting ioy in the life to come Your Honors most humble in the Lord to command R. Alison TO THE READER HOwsoeuer earthly kingdoms do prosper best when peace is had yet the church of Christ which is his throne receiueth good euen by dissention Inde crescit Ecclesia vnde mundus deficit Therfore although a good agreement in al affaires ought to be regarded yet a dissent in religion doth sometime profit inasmuch as therby the faith of some is exercised the inconstancie of others is made manifest and the diligence of all those whom deep securitie hath not ouerwhelmed is much quickned vnto the serching of the truth The rent that is made by some hath confirmed this vnto vs by experience whiles that the constancie of such as are wise hearted is made manifest the vanitie of those that are vnstedfastly minded is laide open the godly are made acquainted with those ancient heresies whereof in times past they were both ignorant and carelesse The disturbances of our Church are many proceeding from one fountaine though they bee not all of one nature Satan hath sent them they are like vnto him disagreeing one with another and at iarre in themselues and yet are all opposite vnto the truth For the Atheists and Papists are at as great defiance one with another as euer was Herod and Pilate And the Anabaptists and Donatists condemne each the other for matters of religion as much as the Pharesies did the Saduces and yet as they could bee reconciled rather then the Church should inioy her peace so these will sooner iustifie one another than they will submit themselues vnto the truth But the bush which Msoses sawe perished not though it was compassed with a flame and the Church of God through his gracious prouidence doth stand fast though the securitie of Atheists the Idolatrie of Papists and the impietie of the rest haue threatned an ouerthrow yea it is now come to passe that although no heresie is without some fauourers yet the deuises euen of the most skilfull deceiuers haue bene so laid vpon that not one of those is thought vpon of sober mindes but with detestation I grant that men voide of reason may thinke reuerently of them because wee see the Donatist condemning Donatisme a schisme which hee himselfe vpholdeth which is a verie dronkennes though it bee without wine but wisedome is iustified of her children The Donatists in the yeere of our Lorde 290. or as some write 353. by their preposterous dealings disturbed the churches in all those partes where they remained With vaine impudencie they condemned all the Churches of God and affirmed that the Church was in the partes of Donatus onely Also in vpholding that the Church of Christ is without spot or wrinkle or grosse pollution they did falsely charge Coecilianus the Bishop of Carthage with certaine crimes taking occasion therevpon to separate themselues from the Church They did account the Sacraments to be no Sacraments if they were deliuered by one that approued not their schisme And therevpon though Donatus did not institute rebaptization yet his successors rebaptised those that came vnto them They taught that it was vnlawfull to seeke vnto the magistrate for aide in causes of the church because they were the Lords free people To be short that men are not to be compelled vnto good duties that they are to vow a constancie in their schisme that they were ready to prouoke the sword of the magistrate against themselues that they might brag of sufferings these and such like were the fruites of Donatisme Now Donatus the first author of this schisme was condemned for an heretique and his doctrine for hereticall in the daies of Constantine by the councel of Carthage and from time to time euer since it hath ben so accounted of not onely of the Church of God but also of such as abhorre the name but maintaine the doctrine of this schisme This is it that the malcontents of our age do greedilie hunt after the annoiance of our church condemne it and all other Churches that are not partakers of their
highest to the lowest were infidels and pagans without God without the knowledge of his word without conscience in any thing without the feare of God This is the meeknesse of an arrogant spirit The bull sent by Pope Pius the fift to cursse her Maieiestie the land was not vnlike vnto it the calumniation is the same in both and therefore master Iewell hath framed an answere meete for both Now as touching our ministery which is set as the third argument of our disobedience the defects therof are noted to be either in their election or in their subiection to a false gouernement Their election and ordination say they are not by the Lords holy and free people This hath bene answered pag. 45. Also they are made in nubibus say they but if these factioners had not made their owne ministers in tenebris they might with lesse impudencie haue blamed the making of ours Besides they say that at her maiesties entrance vnto the crowne our ministers were set ouer the people without an outvvard calling Wherein I will not oppose the ministerie of Luther and Caluin whose ministerie they cannot deny to be warrantable pag. 53. of their booke and yet they had not a better calling then our men had but I dare auouch the calling of our men vnto the ministerie at the entring in of her maiestie vnto the crowne to be the selfe same that euen our aduersaries haue warranted pag. 59. of the aforesaid treatise viz. the magistrate did send them to instruct the vnbeleeuers but say they they vvere no ministers vnto them Then let them tell vs what other ministerie this might be and what warrant they haue for it in the word or else they giue vs iust cause to complaine that they are filled with conceites Now the gouernement vnder the which they execute their ministerie is such that master Caluin acknowledgeth the antiquitie thereof to be great and saith that it was in vse before the time of Papacie and the vse thereof to be good viz. ad disciplinae conseruationem for the vpholding of discipline and for the auoyding of confusion But master Barrow saith that the Queene and Parliament do vvickedly in giuing this authoritie vnto the Bishops vvhich they haue committed vnto them the same is published by his owne procurement vnto the view of all men who reading it and considering of it may see the dealings of master Barrow I say no more But to make an end with this Argument notwithstanding all the exceptions afore said the Church of England acknowledgeth Christ as their Prophet and for conscience sake doth reuerence gods word taught by the ministerie thereof from the which who so turneth away his eare euen his prayers are abhominable Pro. 28. 9. And also the sacraments deliuered by them considering that God hath ioyned them as seales vnto his word whereof hath bene spoken pag. 27. Brownist Their people are not knit togither as members ech of other in one congregation but both roue and goe assemble depart at their pleasure when they will vvhether they vvill and as they vvil themselues as also liue in continual disorder Ansvvere The Argument is this The true church is ioyned togither as members of one bodie but the church of England is not but doth roue and go c. Therefore c. In the proposition I finde these absurdlties first that the visible church is tyed to be all of one assemblie or congregation in which respect the diuision of our church into seuerall parishes is an eye-sore vnto them Secondly that the inordinate proceedings of some in the church should proue a nullitie of the church as if the losse or vnsoundnesse of a member could take away the esse from the bodie Thirdly that the spiritual vnion of the mēber in the whole church is so required in euerie seuerall assemblie as if it were as great a sin for a man to depart from one assemblie vnto another as to dismember himselfe altogither from the whole bodie which is the church Al which are so grosse that a censurer doth better become them then a confuter As for our church the disorders therein are too many yet were they exceeding and intollerable if they were so generall as this accuser thereof hath auouched viz. amongst all men at all times and in all their actions but an Orator can doe much in perswading and a slanderer will do more in abusing Brownist Their parishes are not ordered gouerned by such officers as Christ hath appointed to his church haue no true pastors teachers elders deacons releeuers but in stead of these they remaine most seruilely subiect to the Antichristian gouernement of their Popishe Archbishops Bishops Chancellors Archdeacons Deacons Commissaries Doctors proctors aduocats notaries registers pursuiuants cursitors summoners c. and from the Apostolicall seat of the Bishops they receaue an Antichristian and a false ministery as their parsons vicars curats hirelings lecturers mercenary preachers c. vvhich together vvith this people stande bounde and subiect to these bishops and their popish courtes of high commission of faculties of arches of prerogatiue of delegates of their commissaries c. Therefore c. Ansvvere The argument is this The true church is ordered by such officers and and lawes as Christ in his last wil and testament hath thereunto ordained But the church of England is not ordered thus Therefore c. The first argument hath beene infringed pag. 25. where it was proued that outwarde discipline is not the life of the church also pag. 26. 70. where it was shewed that doctors widdows were not necessarie in euery congregation Wherunto I adde this that although a gouernement by elders c. was established in some churches in the Apostles times yet as pag. 62. hath beene said it remaineth as yet vnproued that this gouernement is to remaine vnchangeable in all ages they tell vs that Christ was as faithfull in his house as Moses was I grant it yea and more faithfull Therfore say they he hath set downe an outward gouernement as well as Moses did This also will I grant thē yet remaineth a third matter viz. that the Brownistes cast their heades together againe and describe this gouernement better then as yet they haue done and proue out of Gods word not onely what it is but that it is necessarily to be had in al ages alike yea and that the want of it doth conuince a people to be no true church vnto God All which being once performed their proposition shall be granted The second part of this argument is confirmed by these foure circumstances that wee haue no true pastors whereof hath bene spoken very oft Secondly that the gouernement by Archbishops c. is antichristian A matter answered pag. 110. but in affirming our gouernement to be in the power of proctors aduocates notaries registers pursuiuants summoners c. whom these euill tongued men doe know to haue no authority in hearing of causes giuing sentence bewraieth