capacity of our condition is not sufficient to denominate or render the subject it is in perfect or an exact keeper of the Law of God If a debter owe twenty pound and hath but five pound which he pays to his Creditor doth the payment of this five pound which is as much as the present capacity of his condition reacheth to denominate and render him a perfect payer of his debt I trow not and pray Sir shew the difference betwixt this and your assertion CHAP. VI. Of Religion 1. YOu assert that Religion consists in belief not humane grounded upon reason but relying on the Churches authority and the assistance of the Holy Ghost Religio est virtus perquam homines Deo debitum cultum reverentiam exhibent Aquin. 22. q. 81. 1. c. religio est quae cultum honorem Deo tribuit Azor instit mor. p. 1. l. 3. c. 26. l. 9. c. 5. p. 23. Answ 1. The proper act of Religion is to worship and bring honour to God with relation to whom only Religion is defined by your Schoolmen and others This worship is due to God only and is that whereby we give up our selves unto God as the supream Lord of all and do place our hope and that in him as Azorius defines it According to this faith is a part of divine worship an act of Religion but relating to God the supream Lord of all not to the Church which is only a servant under him or if you will an assembly of his servants and indeed its reason that faith should refer to God it being the principal act by which a creature honours God and therefore is more pressed then any other Evangelical duty and besides its requisite it have a settled object to rest upon which is Gods authority for the Churches is not always visible Abraham beleeved but his faith relied not upon the Churches authority The Blessed Virgins faith could not rest upon any authority of the Church especially at Christs death when your men affirm that the Church was in her only but even then the Word of God the material object of faith had a visible existence and the fidelity of God faiths formal object was present with her to lean upon The Scriptures you urge to prove that faith relies on the Churches authority viz. Mark 16. John 14. make nothing for you the later speaks only of the Disciples instruction by the Spirit of God The former proves that we must beleeve the Gospel the material object of faith but saith not a word of the Church it saith not he that relies upon the Churches authority shall be saved Whosoever beleeves the Gospel whether he receive it from the Church or not shall be saved I challenge you or any that dotes on the word Church to give me any Scriptures that teacheth to beleeve in or on the Church and think you not the Apostles knew how to speak as well as you 2. I have already shewed that the Churches authority is but humane in the judgment of learned Papists and that the Spirits assistance makes her not infallible nor a guide or rule of belief Your self do in effect confesse at least of the present Church For you say pag. 16. To be the guide of belief requires further ability and skill to lay open immediately to belief Gods reveled truth a prerogative belongs to the Church and no other as to whom alone revelation was made Now this ability is not in the Church she laies not open immediately Gods reveiled truth whether hereby you mean that the Church speaks to the heart the seat of faith or that she doth it not by means of the Scriptures the Church lays open divine truths by the means of Scripture Besides the Church is not the subject of revelation which you say is the foundation of this prerogative Your Logical proceeding in councels shew your want of reuelation Your consciousness hereof makes you say revelation WAS made it was but is not so now 3. Your inference hereupon is 1. Thus The Religion of sectaries is vain their b lief being grounded on some humane respect not upon the warrantable authority of the Church ibid. Answ There may be belelief gounded neither on the authority of the Church nor on humane respects Consult Azorius and he will tell you that there are Cathâ—liques who ground not their faith on the authority of the Church and yet ground it not upon humane respects The Word of God revealed unto us by the light of faith wrought in the soul by the spirit is no humane respect and this Orthodox Christians build their belief upon 2. Inference For them to deserve the name of true Christians and to be stiled of the right Religion their only way is to level at perfection that takes its rise from an absolute resignation of their wills to the will of God in order to the Church which is to become spiritually little ones Matth. 18. Answ 1. Where do you learn that this grounding our belief upon the authority of the Church is the way yea the only the way to be true Christians and of the right Religion Are not those Papists who differ from you in this point and such there are as I have shewed true Christians and of the right Religion I am sure they are Papists for the main and therefore cannot be of a wrong Religion if popery be the right 2. Who told you that that Text of Matthew was to be so expounded I have seen divers expositions of the fathers on this Text different from yours but I find not one that from it doth teach us to ground our faith on the Church as the only way to true Christianity and the right Religion 3. It s a good lesson to teach us to submit our wills to the Will of God but it doth not appear that we should ground our faith upon the Churches authority the Scriptures are altogether ignorant and destitute of expressions of such a duty CHAP. VII Of the unity of Religion JN the beginning of this Chapter you assert that True Religion is One but presently fal upon the unity of persons in this one Religion and to the means whereby they come to be united which means you propound in these words viz. Experience shews that this unity of Religion is an effect of acknowledging the Church for the rule of belief it being visible to the eye that all that square their belief to the Church are one in religion whereas they that take to themselves other rules discent and jarre c. p. 28. Asw 1. Whether those who acknowledg the Church for the rule of belief be so one in Religion as that they neither dissent nor jarre I refer it to any mans judgment who hath but ordinary insight into the writers of Popish controversies I wonder whose experience it is that finds it Or what Alseeing eye it is that discerns All acknowledgers of the Churches authority to be one in Religion Have you seen
New Testament See Rom. 1.19 20. 2 Tim. 3.15 16.17 John 17.3 3. Your Conformity of Faith to the Church in a Popish sence is a novel phrase not used by the first Christians nor the Apostles of Christ in any of their writings nor did they ever bid men beleeve as the Church beleeved though that was of greater authority then the present Church is but still called their faith to the Word of God contrary to which if Paul or any other Apostles yea or Angels from Heaven did preach the people were to reject them and no doubt if Paul had preached such stuff as now Popish Sermons are filled with traditions and new decrees ungrounded on Gods Word the Beraeans had rejected him and his praying It was for want of this Conformity of Faith to the Word of God that our Saviour upbraids the two Disciples that travelled to Emaus Luk. 24.25 He saith not O flow of heart to beleeve all that the Church beleeves this as I said was no Scripture language nor known to primitive Christians but to beleeve all that the Prophets have spoken And that he may lead them to this Conformity of Faith he expounds not the Decrees and Constitutions of Scribes and Pharisees who sat in Moses Chair whereof there were many but 't is said Beginning at Moses and all the Prophets he expounded unto them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself vers 27. Sir I beleeve you are so dutiful a son to the Church that had you been in Christs stead you would rather have told them of Popes decretal Epistles then of Prophets writings of Traditions rather then Scripture if such things then had had a being But 4. Why could not you say a Conformity of Faith to the Truth revealed as well as a Conformity of Faith to the Church revealing the Truth The Truth revealed not the Church revealing it is the Rule of Faith as I shall shew hereafter 1. You might have done well once for all to have told us what you mean by The Church for the word is diversly attributed even by those who in general agree that it is only the Roman Church as you seem by your Epistle to the Reader to understand it 2. You urge Scripture to prove your Assertion viz. three Texts Mat. 28.19 Luke 10.16 Mat. 16. The two first do not so much as mention the word Church the last mentions the word but proves not the thing you bring it for 1. Mat. 28. Going teach ye all Nations Ans I wonder in what word the proof lies I suppose it 's not in Going and I dare say Teaching proves it not for then every Teacher should be a Rule of Faith besides the Apostles were not to teach men to hang their faith upon themselves or others whether of the Roman or any other Church but they were commanded to teach men to do whatsoever Christ had commanded vers 10. amongst which this was the principal work to believe on him whom God had sent Joh. 6.29 viz. Jesus Christ to whom they were brought by the Apostles preaching as living stones to be built upon a foundation 2. Luke 10.16 He that heareth you heareth me Ans I suppose this Text is brought to explain the other which had need of a Commentary to make it speak your language But 1. This is spoken primarily and absolutely of the Apostles who were Christs mouth in delivering the Scriptures and therefore infallibly inspired by the Holy Ghost that they could not err in what they delivered to us That which Moses was to the Jews in delivering the Law the same were the Apostles to us in delivering the Gospel So that he that heareth the Apostles heareth Christ because it was the word of Christ which they did speak and this way we hear the Apostles speak yet whilest wâ— read or hear the Scriptures which they pen'd but what is this to the present Roman Church and her unwritten Traditions 2. As it 's understood of ordinary Ministers in the Church it can only be understood conditionally He that heareth you while your doctrine agreeth with the Word of God heareth me so that faith is not a conformity to any Teachers or their doctrine but so far as their doctrine is agreeable with the Scriptures which indeed are the Rule both of their preaching and our beleeving Consonantly hereunto the Apostle saith If any man teach otherwise and consent not to wholesom words even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ he is proud from such withdraw thy self 1 Tim. 6.3 c. The Scribes and Pharisees who were the Church in a Popish sence were to be heard but it was whilest they sate in Moses Chair that is whilest they preached not their own traditions and phancies but Moses doctrine Arias Montanus saith Elucid in Mat. 23. Christ bids them do what the Scribes and Pharisees commanded Ex praescripto legis id est ex Cathedrâ Mosis So Origen Origen apud Lyran. Super Cathedram c. isie sermo de me est qui bona dâ—ceo contraria gero 3. The Text speaks not of the Church for particular Ministers in the Church are not the Church Now your Rhemists expound it of them in these words It is all one to despise Christ RheÌ„ Annot. on the Text. and to despise his Priests and Ministers in the Catholique Church to refuse his doctrine and theirs And indeed it must be understood of those who labour in the Word and Doctrine not of non-preaching Popes and Prelates 3. Mat. 16. you would say Mat. 18.17 which you read thus He that heareth not the Church let him be as an Heathen and a Publican Not to say any thing of your false quotation or reading a fault common throughout your Book Protestants may take notice what great cause we have to put these men into our bosoms as they expect whilest they profess we are no better then Heathens or Publicans though I am sure their usage from us hath shewed us Christians But to the Text How little it makes for your purpose the Context words themselves will shew It speaks not of Conformity of Faith to the Church but of obedience of the offending party to the admonition of the Pastors of the Church Thus Lyranus Si non aud Eccles pr ceptum praelatos contemnendo Lyr. in loc You might as well say that faith is a conformity to our selves because it 's said If he neglect to hear thee vers 15. or to two or three witnesses because it 's said If he neglect to hear them vers 17. whereby is implied that he ought to hear them Hence it might well follow that faith ought rather to be resolved upon a neighbor that is a private man then upon the Church because the offended party is first to be heard before the Church And then Sir who is guilty of the Private spirit that you anon talk of Sure your selves and not the Protestants In stead of these misapplied Scriptures for you I shall give you
much strength in them He that reads the Scriptures with a spiritually enlightened mind cannot but confess that never meer man spake like the Holy Writers and that flesh and blood revealed not those things to them which they declare but God only 2. Upon what account was this truth taken up by the first Christians for the space of three hundred years after Christ they could not take it up upon the Churches account and credit for your Authors hold that its only in the power of Oecumenical Sinods to define which are the Scriptures and for this time there was no such a Sinod called The first Sinod that I finde delivering the Canon of Scripture was that of Laodicea held about the year 364. Afterwards the third Council of Carthage both Provincial Sinods only though afterwards confirmed in a General Council 3. Upon what account or credit doth your Church take up this truth that the Scriptures are the Word of God Sure you are so great an Enemy to Spiritists that you will not think of extraordinary Revelations or Enthusiasms I hardly think that ever the Holy Ghost fell upon your Popes or Councils in fiery Tongues or that they had either visions or dreams nor do I think that you will say that your Church propoundeth the Canon of Scripture meerly upon the supposal of former practise that former Churches did allow and believe the Scriptures now received are Canonical for this is only a testimony concerning matter of fact in which 't is confessed the Pope may erre through wrong informations There may be spurious Canons foisted into former Councils like Pope Zozimus Canon of the Nicene Council whereby he maintained his Supremacy I therefore suppose that your judgment must be that your Church assisted by the Spirit doth from internal notes of Scripture conclude the divine authority thereof Hence 't is that Councils proceed by argument and reason and there is an acknowledgment of the truth before they proceed to definition or Decree Now if the Church take up Scripture upon this account that she through the assistance of Gods Spirit discerns the notes and marks of Gods Word why may not a Christian by the same assistance discover these notes and so believe that the Scriptures are Gods Word upon the same account that the Church takes up this beliefe though withal he doth and ought to reverence and highly account of the judgment of the Church or Pastors of it as that which hath a Priority and is an occasion of Christians private judgment and a confirmation of it yet as I hinted before it must not be denied that Christians have a divine light in themselves being taught of God Joh. 6.45 which is for the discovery of divine objects as natural light or reason is for the discovery of natural This Bellarmine confesseth saying Bellar. de lumine fid Conc. 1. Quemadmodum omnes homines c. As all men are indued with a certain natural light whereby they understand the first principles to be true without labour without arguments nor is there any that demands reasons and arguments when those principles are propounded So also all Christians enlightened by God with a certain divine and supernatural light do acknowledg the first principles of our Faith though difficult and exceeding reason to be most true Origen in his Book 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 where he proves the Divinity of Scriptures by divers arguments Origen lib. 4. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 cap. 1. as Protestants do hath a notable speech to this purpose Si quis cum omni judicio c. If any one doth judiciously and with that reverence that is meet consider of the Sacred Writ while he reads and diligently searcheth into it most certainly having his minde and senses affected with some divine inspiration he acknowledgeth that the word he reads is not the word of men but of God and of himselfe perceives ex semetipso sentiet that these books are written not by humane art or mortal eloquence but by the hand of God Thus I suppose it was with the first Christians of whom you cannot say that they believed the books of Scripture to be the Word of God meerly because the Apostles and others held them they were so but upon other account this overthrows your Position What I have said of the Scriptures may be said of other points of Faith that they are not taken up meerly or mainly upon the Churches credit and account but rather because God hath revealed them in his Word wherein they are therefore written that we might have a sure argument for our Faith But I come to your next inference 2 Consequence or Conclusion Whatsoever comes upon any other score is to be reputed Apocriphal and no way appertaining to the obligation of faith Magna Diana Romanorum Great is your Roman Goddess but its only with the Shrine-makers of Rome your conclusion is very high but notoriously false For 1. It s not the Churches definition that makes any book Apocriphal but the want of divine inspiration in those who wrote them so that whatsoever is not written by the Prophets or Apostles the Subjects of divine inspiration that is certainly Apocriphal whether the Church receive them or not Hence many of your learned men reject those books as Apocriphal which the Council of Trent declared to be Canonical the Apostle saith All Scripture is by divine inspiration 2 Tim. 3.16 the Scriptures of the Old Testament are called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 2 Pet. 1.19 read Luke 24.27 2. It was six hundred years after Christ before any General Council delivers the Canon of Scripture now will you say that till that time the books of Scripture were Apocriphal and no way appertaining to the obligation of Faith 3. The Spirit of God may work Faith in the Soule while it is reverently reading the Word of God without the testimony of the Church the person for the present being ignorant what the Church teacheth of particular points this is clear by the place of Origen even now mentioned Lyranus speaks of a teaching of the Spirit Lyran. in 1 Joh. 2.27 Vbi deficit humana Doctrina 4. When the Thessalonians received the Apostles Doctrine not as the word of men but as the Word of God Greg. Analus fid lib. 1. c. 15. was this Doctrine no way appertaining to the obligation of Faith Your Gregory of Valence confesseth Multa sunt c. There are many points of Christian Doctrine which of themselves can procure to themselves credit and authority Lastly the Greek Church with the reformed Churches receive all the Articles of the Apostles Creed because consonant to Gods Word not because delivered by your Roman Diana are those Articles therefore to be reputed Apocriphal and no way appertaining to the obligation of Faith Sure you cannot be so impudent as to assert it though we know Jesuitical impudency is not little For your Scriptures Sect. 2. When I see them reduced to arguments I shall
written in heaven stedfast ones hear saith he and acknowledg that this Church in the Apostolical Epistles is called a foundation 3. In regard of the first Christians and Ministers not succeeding Churches unless in such regards as I shall shew hereafter the Apostle speaks in the Present tense The authoritie of the Primitive Church is greater then of the present Churches There is a clear testimonie and much to our present purpose in your Lovain Doctor Driedo Dried lib. de dogm variâ—s who acknowledges that the Primitive Church was of greater authoritie in teaching and delivering Doctrines of Faith then the present Church because of the Apostles qui â—cclsiae illius columneae Gersom de vita spirituali animae f. 61. R. who being Pillars of that Church were eye-witnesses of that which they taught Thus Gersom expounding that Speech of Augustine you much glory in non crederem Evangelio and I had not believed the Gospel unless the authority of the Church had compelled me thereto saith he taking Church there for the Primitive Congregation of the faithful who saw and heard Christ and were his witnesses Suppose we grant this Church was the Pillar and ground of Truth in your sense what would your present Apostatized Roman Church gaine by hat Your Prelates are no such Pillars as the Atostles nor your Church such a foundation of truth as theirs Lastly supposing it were meant of the present Churches particularly of the Roman It 's being called the Pillar and ground of Truth doth not prove it's infallibilitie James Cephas Gal. 2.9 and John were Pillars yet who would infer from thence that they were infallible Gersom is by one call'd Constantiensis Concilii columnam a Pillar of the Council of Constance yet he was not thought infallible All that can be proved from these titles is this that God makes use of the Church both Pastors and faithful people according to their places to hold forth and preserve the truth which is accomplishhd in every particular Church so long as it continues a true Church of Christ but this doth not exempt it from ceasing to be a true Church or from erring Thus it may truly be said of the Churches of Asia and of Rome that while they continued true Churches of Christ they held forth and preserved Gods truth but neither this nor those were exempt from erring Adam in the state of Innocencie might have been truly called the Pillar and ground of truth and goodness holiness and righteousness yet Adam was created with a posse errare a possibilitie of erring as we know by woful experience Your other text is Matth. 16. I answer 1. By Church we are to understand true Believers Augustine expounds this place by Matth. 7.24.25 Aug. de unit eccles c. 18. See Lyran These cannot be finally prevailed against by the Gates of Hell There will be a number of true Believers and these visible let the Devil and his Instruments do what they can 2. By Hell Gates the Fathers understand persecutions and sins and will you say that the members of the true Church cannot be persecuted nor tempted to sin the contrarie is undeniable 3. It s one thing for Hell Gates to wound us and cause us to shrink another thing to overcome us utterly our weakness lays us open to blows and wounds such weakness was in Peter and the rest of the Apostles who denied or forsook Christ such weakness was in your Pope Liberius when he subscribed to the Arian Heresie Though God doth alwayes strengthen his servants against total Apostacie 4. Tell me Sir suppose I had brought this place to prove the certainty of the Saints perseverance would you have been perswaded that they could not err so much as in the least truth or fall into the least sin 3. Arg. Your third Argument is taken from Christs promise of his presence Matth. 28. I am with you alwayos to the end of the world Ans 1. This promise is made to all the Apostles and their Successors Pag. 15. and therefore if it proved infallibilitie for any it would be for the Apostles Successors in other Churches as well as Rome which is not harmonious musick to Popish ears 2. It s made to the Successors of the Apostles as imployed about the ministerial acts of teaching and baptizing and therefore if it proved infallibilitie the Pope must part with a priviledg you ascribe only to him 3. What is more promised here then Joh. 14.23 where Christ promiseth his presence and abode with private Christians even such as love him and keep his word whom you account not unerrable 4. There are three things contained in this promise a threefold effect of Christs presence with the successes of the Apostles 1. His special support and assistance for the discharge of their duties Thus Chrysostome saith Quia magna eis injunxerat c because he had laid a great task upon them to comfort them he saith Chrysost Hom. 91. in Matth. Behold I am with you c. q. d. lest you should complain that your work is difficult I will be with you who make all things light 2. His protection of them that there shall never cease a Succession of Pastors in the Church to the end of the world Ephes 4.11.12.13.14 3. Ordinarie illumination and direction I say ordinarie to distinguish it from that extraordinarie illumination which the Apostles had and which was suitable for them by whom the Scriptures were written and the Churches first founded but is ceased with them so as Gods Timothies must give themselves to reading meditation c. which the Apostles were not tyed unto Hereupon your inferences fall to the ground in that you say Either Christ was not of power to keep his Church from strayings or that he wanted fidelity to make good his word Christs power is larger then his will or promise and therefore sufficient to perform what he promised Nor is there any defect in his fidelitie whatsoever he hath promised he will perform it to his Church but he never promised her inerrabilitie she is not therefore to expect it from him 4. Arg. Your fourth Argument is in these words The certaintie Divine Faith requires to be built on is a further evidence of the Churches infallibilitie ibid. for how is it possible Faith can be certain if the Church that is to ascertain it be uncertain and fallible The Argument is reducible to this form That which Divine Faith doth build upon must be certain and infallible else Faith it self could not be certain but it 's the Church that â—ivine Faith doth build upon therefore the Church must be certain and infallible Your major I easily grant but deny your minor Proposition which being only questionable you should have brought some proof for it as well as for the other which no man doubts of but it hath been observed to be the practise of Jesuites Probare concessa leviter pertransire dubitata whom you are pleased to imitate
do is neither to men nor their fancies but unto God himself CHAP. X. Of the Protestant Church AFter an unconceivable distinction betwixt Protestants and Spiritists is Lutherans Zuinglians Calvinists in the first words of this Chapter you tell us That this Chapter pretends to lay open the many shapes Protestants put their Church into to make her passe for true Answ 1. The shapes you lay open are not many 'T is true you mention five but there are two distinct ones only to which al the rest may be reduced viz. lawfull Pastors and true Doctrine 2ly The shapes as you call them of Protestants or the notes of the truth of their Church as themselves propound them are not many but very few 3ly You lay not open what Protestants they are that form these several shapes that so your Reader might examine them himself and see what they say for themselves and whether you deal candidly with them in reporting their opinions Your dishonest dealing with Gods Word makes us suspect you deal no better with men Before I come particularly to the shapes I shall premise for the Readers information that there are ordinarily two only notes whereby Protestants prove their Church true viz. the pure preaching of Gods Word and the right administration of the Sacraments to which some few add as a third the use of right Eclesiastical Discipline But this man as if he had known nothing of Protestants judgment or had no mind to encounter with them in their way wholly omits the plea of right administration of the Sacraments and brings the other but in the last place spending the most of his Chapter about personal succession of Bishops thinking himself probably best able to encounter with us in this point both because of their bead-roll of Popes and Papists general conceit that there were no Protestant Pastors in the World before Luther's days which is also this mans misconceit so far as I know But I shall do him the favour to reduce his five shapes to the former of our notes supposing him to say as Stapleton Stap. princ doc l. 1. c. 22. That the preaching of the Gospel is a very clear note of the Catholique Church so it be done by lawful Ministers The question then is concerning the lawfulness of our Ministry which is asserted and confirmed according to the divers times in which it hath been questioned and contradicted particularly in the days of Luther and Queen Elizabeth of blessed memory together with the times preceding them Notwithstanding I will follow you in your method viewing the shapes and your answers to them in that order wherein you propound them SHAPE I. PRotestants are a company of Christians under the government of Bishops and Pastors that have power and authoritie from Christ and his Apostles to administer the Sacrament and preach the Word of God but such a companie is the true Church therefore Protestants are the true Church To which you answer Neither Christ nor the Apostles confer'd any power or authoritie on Protestant Bishops and Pastors they were dead and gone long before these had any being to give power and authoritie requires presence of the giver c. Rep. 1. The foundation of it is sandy it s not universally true that to give power and authority requires the presence of the giver for it may be otherwise especially in two cases 1. If the giver shall deliver some rules or directions for persons receiving power c. a person after his death by his will or testament gives power to another to be his executor A King by his Patten though himself be personally absent gives power and authority to his Commissioners who therefore acts by the Kings authority Your Popes derive not their power and authority from any but from Peter every Pope professeth he hath the keys from Peter that is by Peter's will or testament or some directions and rules of his for he is not I know always present when the Pope is ordained 2. If the prime-giver do invest some person present with him with power to give the same unto others his successors A King doth invest a Town or Justices of peace to ordain a Constable or some other officer in their circuit It s the Kings power that invests him in his office and by oath he promiseth fidelity to him yet the King is not present but as represented by his ministers Should I upon this ground infer that neither your present Pope Cardinals Priests Jesuits no nor present Church hath any of its power from Jesus Christ or his Apostles what could you say to it If you grant it you prejudice your Church for whatsoever spiritual power is not from Jesus Christ or his Apostles is usurped tyrannical if you deny it you cause an earthquake in your argument shaking yea overthrowing its very foundation that to give power and authority requires presence of the giver For Christ is not now present with your Pope c. as God was present with Moses Exod. 3. Or Christ with the Apostles Math. 28. To say they have a mediate presence will not serve your turn for you require personal presence like that Exod. 3. and Math. 28. where God and Christ did confer power immediately by themselves and not by others To apply this to our purpose by way of reply to your answer I say Protestant Bishops and Pastors have their power and authority from Christ both those ways I mentioned viz. 1. By deed and testament Thus Christ by himself and Apostles in Scripture authorize those who are qualified with gifts and abilities for the Ministry to exercise their gifts which they may do upon some occasions and in some times even without a solemn installment by Bishops and Presbiters as when God doth cast them amongst a people where the Gospel hath not before come or where Presbyterial ordination cannot be had in regard of the corruption and wickedness of such as have power to ordain or where Pastors are few and unable for the service of Christ in his Church Upon these and such like occasions that respect each one should have to the promoting of Christs Kingdom puts him so far as God qualifies him for it upon the exercise of this duty provided there be not a contempt or wilfull neglect of that tryal of these gifts which Christ hath committed to the Ministers of his Church whom he hath also intrusted with the power ordination of those who are gifted Thus it may be supposed to have been with Apollo's Acts 18.24 25 27. and you read of divers persons preaching whose ordination is not expresly mentioned thus though we should grant you that our first reformers had no ordinary exernal calling yet had they their authority from Christ being by him furnished with inward abilities which ordination is but a solemn reflection upon and an acknowledgment of You confess that Luther was a man of learning and parts pag. 47. Surius affirms of Bucer Sur comment in An. 1526.
one or two plain Scriptures proving the Word of God to be that whereunto a Christians faith is to be conformable The Apostle continued witnessing both to small and great saying None other things then those wâ—ich the Prophets and Moses did say should come to pass Acts 26.22 This was his teaching And for his own faith you have it Acts 24.14 This I confess unto thee that after the way which they call Heresie so worship I the God of my fathers believing all things which are written in the Law and the Prophets I shall put you in mind of what one of your Proselites writes about this Point I found that by consent of all Christians Dr Vane Lost Sheep return p. 5 6. this knowledg of the means to attain to happiness was not to be gotten by clear and evident sight nor by humane discourse founded on the principles of Reason nor by reliance upon Authority meerly humane but Only by Faith Grounded On The Word of GOD revealing unto men things that were otherwise only known to his infinite Wisdom seeing the Church to the worlds end must be built on the Apostles and Believe Nothing as Matter of Faith beside that which was delivered of them as St. Paul saith Ephes 2.20 Your self also when you come to the Point to speak of the Rule of Faith say that the Truth of God revealed and expressed to us is the Rule of Faith Chap. 9. If Faith be grounded on Gods Word and that this Word of God be the Rule of Faith How can the Church be it seeing there is a vast difference betwixt the Truth and the Church as betwixt a Rule and him that bears it Can you say properly that a man that keeps the standard in his house is the standard or that the post that bears it is it or that the ship that carries the compass is the compass Now you only say that the Church is the Pillar of Truth i. e. it doth but bear it If the Church be the Rule of Faith then I wonder what Rule they have sure not themselves and they being men like us they cannot be without a Rule no more then they can be Christians and yet want faith 3. You say By the first Conformity man comes to the knowledg of God as he is the Author and End of Grace by the second he relies upon his Mercy and Goodness c. Ans 1. You seem to make faith a bare knowledg distinct from reliance on Gods mercy and goodness whereby you give too little to faith whose acts are not only to discern God and divine objects but to rely upon that merciful and good promise of God whereby he offers himself and divine objects to be received by us By this receiving is faith expressed John 1.12 If faith be no more but bare knowledg then Devils yea Reprobates may have true faith yea and may hope in Gods mercy for faith is the foundation of sound hope Your Vasquez is more ingenious then most of you for he acknowledgeth that besides a dogmatical or historical faith Vasq in 1. 2. To. 2. disp 209. c. 1. 4. which he calls Catholike there is also a peculiar faith whereby a Christian believes that he is or shall be justified or saved And this faith is the foundation of that hope you mention and not much differing from it only that as hope looks at the thing promised so faith doth more directly reflect upon the promise though Vasquez saith the same of faith that you of hope Cujus generis est fides qua aliquis credit se a Deo per orationem obtenturum id quod petit c. I shall conclude this with the words of learned Rivet Ineptiunt ergo ne quid gravius dicam qui cum tribuant fideli spem fiduciam circa electionem gratiam salut m Propriam fidem tamen negant Rivet sum Cont. Tract 4. q. 16. ss 6. But as you cast faith here below it self so in the next Chapter you set up Charity above it self making it the soul of faith CHAP. III. Of the Diversities of Faiths Hopes and Charities IN this Chapter I shall only take notice of two passages 1. You say The means of habitual and actual divine Faith Hope and Charity is the Tradition of the Church Ans 1. If by the Tradition of the Church you mean the true and right Exposition of Scripture made by faithful Pastors and Teachers of the Church as Vincentius Lyrinensis understands it then I shall easily consent to you for it is no more then the Apostle himself asserts when he saith Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God Rom. 10.17 But 2. If you mean the Churches opinions distinct from Scripture or unwritten Verities as they are called by you then I affirm that these are not means for your proposed end the Scripture it self without your additions being sufficient to make the man of God perfect in all graces And this you are not altogether unconvinced of as appears by your Preachers who in their Sermons do ground their discourses upon Texts of Scriptures and I suppose their Sermons are intended to be means of faith hope c. 2. You say St Paul gives to Charity the preeminence And not undeservedly for she is the enlivening Soul of Faith and Hope c. both they being out of her company as dead bodies without life or motion c. Your assertion is grounded upon two Scriptures viz. 1 Cor. 13.13 and James 2.26 For the first I freely subscribe to the preeminence of Charity but upon the Apostles reason not yours which is the continuance of Charity when Faith and Hope fail Thus the Apostle is understood by your ordinary Gloss Primasius Augustine and the generality of Expositors In presenti tria haec Lyran. in 1 Cor. 13.13 in futuro sola charitas permanebit Majus est ergo quod semper erit quam quod aliquando cessabit But you say It 's the Soul of Faith c. This I deny For 1. Your own Authors do earnestly contend that true faith yea that faith that justifies and is joyned with hope and charity 1 Cor. 13.13 may be without charity charity therefore cannot be the soul of faith for the enlivening soul cannot be absent from its body and yet that body remain a true living humane body 2. The Apostle saith that faith without works is dead as the body without the soul yet you will not say that good works are the soul of faith whereby it hath life and motion Your Rhemists assert it that the Thief on the Cross wanted good works and thereupon conclude RheÌ„ Annot. on Luke 23.43 that Faith hope c. will be sufficient and good works not required where for want of time and opportunity they cannot be had Now can you say that his faith was without life and motion It had so much life and motion that it brought him to Heaven by your own confession Now if the
Popes Legates sitting in it yet pleased not the Pope by their decree in the second Session That the Pope ought to be subject to a general Council This was also the decree of the Council of Constantinople which notwithstanding was called by John the 24. and confirmed by Martin the 5 two Popes 3. Infallibility is not subjected in the body of the faithful for it 's a clear truth which Dr Featly observed Whatsoever the Romanists say of the infallibility of the Church they resolve it at last into the Authority of the Church Indeed if we speak of the universal visible Church as comprehending all Beleevers in the world it 's not possible that all should err for then Christ should want a Church but for particular Churches it 's most evident they are subject unto error Papists profess it openly of other Churches and sometimes confess it of the Roman The Council of Trent decree to reform many things in manners and doctrine in that Church and there was great need so to do Cassander ingeniously acknowledgeth a defection from the primitive Church Cassand Cons Act. 7. p. 929. both in regard of integrity of manners and discipline and also in regard of sincerity of doctrine and further saith that this Church hath provoked her Husband multis erroribus vitiis with her many errors and vices From all this it 's most infallibly true that the Roman in none of their Considerations is infallible I will now come to examine his Arguments Pag. 12. he begins with a supposition saying Supposing it for granted that Christs knowledg of Gods revealed Truth and his power to convey the same to belief raised his preaching and teaching to the full height and perfection of a Rule of Belief to the first Christians it cannot in reason be denyed he having communicated his said knowledg and power to the Apostles and in them to the succeeding Churches as appears by his own words Joh. 15. Joh. 20. but she may challenge a like interest and right in respect of after-Christians whence it follows that all matters of Belief as well other Points as Scripture are to be taken up upon her account and credit and that whatsoever comes upon any other score is to be reputed Apocryphal and no way appertaining to the obligation of Belief In answer hereunto I will first consider the Supposition and afterwards the inferences and proofs of them There are divers things herein questionable if not simply false 1. 'T is said Christs preaching and teaching was a Rule of Belief Ans If by these acts you understand the materia circa quam the matter of his preaching viz. the Scripture or Word of God then it 's true that his teaching was the Rule of Faith i. e. that which he taught and discovered to them was the Rule of Faith but if you understand it of his transient preaching as if by these acts he propounded to them a Rule of Faith for so your words seem to import it 's false for Christ by his preaching did not propound a new Rule of Faith but did onely reveal that rule of Faith which was before laid and was contained in the Scriptures of the Old Testament Hence it was that Christ sent his hearers to the Scriptures John 5.39 and himselfe did preach out of the Scriptures Luk. 24.25.26 27 44. c. Luk. 4.16 and that for this end as Beda notes that he might manifest himself to be the same that spoke in the Prophets Beda apud Lyran. and that he might remove that sacrilegious conceit that there was one God of the Old another of the New Testament Yea further Thus did the Apostles after him Act. 26.22 they preached nothing but what was contained in the Law and Psalms and Prophets 2. 'T is said was a Rule of Beliefe to the first Christian◠Ans And is it not a Rule of Belief unto us who are after-Christians Had the primitive Christians one Rule of Faith and we another If there be one Faith why not one Rule of Faith to all Christians why doth the Apostle exhort the Philippians and in them all Christians to walk by the same rule In eadem regulâ fidei Phil. 3.16 Gloss interl If there were one rule doth that blessing Gal. 6.16 extend only to the Primitive Churches and not rather to all Christians who were to walk by the same rule that they walked The teaching of Christ doth not make one rule and of the Apostles another but both reflect upon and explain one and the same rule of Faith 3. Whereas you say Christs knowledg of Gods revealed truth and his power to convey the same to belief raised his preaching c. Pon might have done well to have explained what knowledg and what power this is you speak of which is sufficient to qualifie a person for propounding a rule of Faith I conceive its requisite 1. that this knowledg extend to whatsoever Faith is to belief for seeing the rule of Faith must be exact containing neither more nor less then Faith is to belief hence it will follow the Propounder of this rule must know what is the adequate object of Faith This universality of Christs knowledg is hinted in one of the Texts you mention viz. Joh. 15. All I have learned of my Father I have made known unto you Here is first an universal knowledg and then the proposal of a rule suitable to this knowledg 2. That this knowledg be most certain and infallible no teaching can be a rule of belief but that which is grounded on infallible knowledg conjectural knowledg may be a ground of opinion not of Faith Hence is that expression Joh. 19.35 He that saw it bare record and his record is true and he knoweth that he saith true that ye might believe Now this infallibility in the subject knowing ariseth either 1. from the Divine Nature in the person Thus the persons in the Trinity are only infallible and for this cause it is that many learned Papists do deny that our Faith is resolved into the authority of the Church and Azorius tells us that in his time it was the common opinion of your Divines that Faith was ultimately resolved into God Inter Cathol tres sunt opiniones una est asserentium primam rationem in quam fides nostra ultimò resolvitur esse Deum revelantem quae sunt fidei Deus enim est prima summa veritas quaé falli ullo modo nec fallere potest ac ratio credendi debet esse talis ac tanta ut ei falsum subesse non possit Haec opinio quam sequitur Cajetanus est communi consensu in Theol. Scholis modo recepta Azor. instit Moral parl 2. l. 5. c. 24. q. 2. the revealer of the objects of Faith and that upon this account because he could neither deceive nor be deceived being the prime and chief Verity and the reason of Faith must be such as cannot deceive and for this reason he rejects
endeavour to answer them for the present I understand not what they should prove and therefore dismiss them without any answer In your third Section you go about to prove the Churches infallibility as a qualification of her for the delivery of a Rule of Faith and you urge divers Arguments which I now come to examine and answer Arg. 1. God hath endowed her with inerrability whereby to convey the truth safely and without danger of miscarrying by arming her proof against all the enemies of truth against ignorance error darkness weakness For this you urge divers Texts In these words though they seem an intention of but one argument yet there are these two viz. 1. If the Church cannot convey truth safely and without danger of miscarrying but by the gift of inerrability then Christ hath endowed her with it But she cannot convey truth safely and without danger of miscarrying but by the gift of inerrability Ergo c. 2. If Christ hath armed his Church against the enemies of truth viz. ignorance darkness error and weakness then hath he endowed her with inerrability but he hath so armed her Ergo c. To these in order Ans First to the first I answer 1. By denying the consequence of the major Proposition the reason of my denial is this Christ hath not made the Church the principal much less the only means of conveying truth safely Though yoor Pope Cardinals Jesuites Priests yea General Councils should err yet there remains a safe way of conveying truth without miscarrying that is the Scriptures 2 Pet. 1.19 Beda paraphrasing upon those words In a dark place Beda apud Lyran. hath this note In hujus saeculi nocte c. In the night of this world full of temptations vices and errors where there is hardly one to be found without error against which this light is necessary So that you see the Scriptures convey the truth safely against temptations vices errors in the judgment of this venerable Author It may be you will object that infallibility is necessary for the Church that she may safely convey these Scriptures wherein the truth is But I deny this to be true For 1. It cannot be denied but God did make use of the Jewes to preserve the Scriptures Rom. 3.2 yet by the leaven of their Doctors the Pharisees the Commandments of God were transgressed Matth. 23.5 Yea it evidenceth their errability that they mistook the sense of the Law and when Christ came Mariana tract pro edit vulgát cap. 7. p. 50. that they did generally oppose and resist him and yet I believe the Scriptures yea I had almost said the very iota's and titles of them were preserved from miscarrying Your Authors confess of the Hebrew text that there is no substantial error in it 2. The Law was by Gods providence kept safely a great while in the House of the Lord unknown to any till Hilkiah the High-Priest found it in the daies of Josiah 2 King 22.8 Now you will not ascribe infallibility to the House of the Lord. 3. You acknowledg not the Greek Church to be a true Church yet the Scriptures have been safely preserved by them whilest the error of the Chiliasts and of those who laid a necessity on Infants to receive the Eucharist remained in the Church which was for some 100. of years yet then the Scriptures were preserved from miscarrying The truth is Gods Providence is chiefly ingaged for the preservation of these books and that concurring any means that God useth may suffice though they were Turks and Heathens that had the keeping of them 2. I answer by denying your Minor and say the Church may convey the truth without the gift of inerrability bestowed on her as well as other Churches subject to errour have done Thus we confess that your Roman Church hath preserved the ancient Creeds the Commandments and Scriptures though we deny you to be sound members of the Catholike Church We admire and adore Gods providence not your inerrability had not a Divine hand overawed you I fear the Scriptures would have fared little better then the Fathers have done whose writings you have notoriously corrupted and falsified as hath beene manifested against you by our learned Writers 2. Arg. 2. To your second Argument I answer by distinction viz. a subject and particularly the Church may be armed against ignorance darkness error and weakness either in regard of hurts blows and lesser foils or in regard of total ruine or a final overthrow or if you will these may be considered either as total or only partial It 's exemption not onely from total and ruining ignorance darkness error and weakness but from inferiour degrees hereof that can prove infallibility in the subject so exempted So then if the Church be exempted from all degrees of these evils so as they cannot at all hurt her then your Argument is good but this exemption I utterly deny Christ hath only so far armed his Church whilst Militant against these that they shall not ruine or destroy her gross ignorance and obstinate error the forerunners of ruine cannot happen to the Church but lesser degrees of these may This is confessed by your own Authors of each of these 1. Ignorance Lombard saith Lomb. l. 4. dist 18. f. Deus non semper sequitur ecclesiae judicium c. God doth not alwayes concur with the judgment of the Church which judgeth somtime by stealth and ignorance 2. Darkness Ccc. Dial. p. 1. lib. 5. cap. 28. Occam saith Circa illa c. Concerning those things that are not necessary to be believed expresly it s not necessary that the Churches judgment be alwayes certain Sure uncertaintie of judgment must arise from darkness 3. Error Thus Picus saith Fieri potest c. It may be that the Vice-head may be distempered as the natural Franc Picus Theor. 23. and as this noxious humour so that may diffuse into the body unsound opinions Stapl. Relect c. 1. q. 4. Art 5. Not. 1. Stapleton confesseth That perfect holiness in regard of Doctrine is not in all times and places because great men may not only doubt but err in some points of Doctrine and yet the true Church remain with them 4. Weakness Thus Turrecrema saith Quamvìs ecclesia Turrecr sum d. Eccles 2. c. 112. c. Although the Church be supported by divine power and authority yet inasmuch as it is a Congregation of men something through humane weakness is acted by it which is not divine Thus it 's confest that the Church is not totally exempted from these enemies But because you bring Scripture to patronize your cause let us see whether it speak for you 1. Against Ignorance you urge Mat. 13. To you it is given to know the mysteries of the Kingdome of heaven Ans 1. I wonder your Rhemists had nothing to say for the Churches infallibilitie from this Text all that they conclude from it is this That to the Apostles and
The reasons of my denial are these 1. It s the priviledg of the Word of God written or the Scripture to be the ground of Faith These things are written that ye might believe Joh. 20. ult i. e. that your Faith might have a certain foundation revelations or traditions being more uncertain and easily pretended where they have no existence or being Compare with this 2 Pet. 1.18.19 Ye have a more sure word of Prophecie that is In quo magis confirmetur auditor whereby the hearer may be more confirmed So that the word is more sure and that to us inasmuch as we are thereby more confirmed Hence it is that our Saviour sends his hearers to the Scriptures that therein they might finde what they have to believe Joh. 5.39 So doth the Prophet Isa 8.20 and Abraham in the parable Luk. 16.29 which your Lyranus comments thus upon Lyran. in Luk. 1 is 29. Habent Moysen c. they have Moyses who taught moral actions and the Prophets who delivered mysteries of Faith and these suffice to salvation therefore it follows let them hear them This was the measure of the Apostles preaching and faith Act. 26.22 Act. 17.10.11 By this the Bereans tryed the truth of the Apostles preaching and for its conformity thereto Annot. of Divines on the Text. did receive it into their belief 't is said therefore many of them believed i. e. because of the testimony of the Scriptures So that we may truly say that if the Apostles had preached any thing beside or contrary to Scripture the Bereans would not have believed their preaching and the Apostle himself would have justified them herein Gal. 1.8.9 On which Text Augustine hath this note Qui praeter greditur Aug. apud Lyran. in c. He that goes beside the rule of Faith doth not walk in the way but departs from it Neither would the Apostle himself have us found our hope on him but on that truth which he declared That which was spoken by him was better then he by whom it was spoken From whence what can be more clearly infer'd then that 1. The Word of God preached is the rule of Faith And 2. That faith is not resolved into persons preaching the truth but into the truth preached by them contrarie to both which is your minor Proposition 2. Ans Supposing it true that the Church must be the ground of Faith yet I affirme that this is not yours or any other present Church but only the Primitive Church which as I have already shewed is of greater authority then the present Church which is in a kind grounded upon the Apostolike Church or that Church which contains the Prophets Apostles c. All succeeding Churches are built upon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets whose testimony because of their visible converse with God and Christ becomes efficax ad credendum effectual for the grounding of Faith It s observeable that whereas Abraham might have told the rich man that his Brethren had a present Church to hearken to yet he only mentions Moses and the Prophets 2. I affirm that if your Church be a foundation of Faith yet this would not be a Divine but only an humane Faith And indeed this is the very reason why your Doctors commonly held that Faith is ultimately resolved upon God himself revealing the truth as Azorius observes because Divine Faith must be resolved into a Divine testimony which the testimony of the Church is not and they prove it by divers arguments especially by foure which I have transcribed out of Azorius And though he do not altogether adhere to their opinion Ratio 1. Ecclesiae testimonium est quidem divinum sed participatione non per se sua naturâ at Dei testimonium est divinum per se suâ naturâ fides divina resolvi debet in testimonium quod sit per se non autem participatione divinum 2. Quae sunt fidei revelatione Divinâ non naturae lumine sunt patefacta at Deus est qui revelat ac pandit res fidei non ecclesia 3. In Angelis Prophetis Apostolis caeteris Librorum Cananicorum Scriptoribus fides non resolvebat in ecclesiae testimonium sed in Deum per se pro xime revelantem at fides nostra est ejusdem speciei cujus fui illa Ergo in eandem rationem credendi reducitur 4. Quamvis ecclesia sit testis non tamen Condit aliquem articulum fidei sed declarat explicat quae sunt fidei c. Azor. Instit Moral Parl. 2. l. 5. c. 24. q. 2. but allows somthing to the Church yet he acknowledges that it 's ex accidenti by accident that our Faith is resolved into the Churches authority Again 2. Many learned Papists believe and teach that it 's onely an humane Faith whereby we believe that this or the other Pope is Peters Successor and Christs Vicar on earth because it depends on this Proposition that this or the other Pope is orderly and Canonically chosen to the Popedome which is also objected against General Councils Now how can we believe a Popes Decrees for a Divine Faith when it s onely an humane Faith whereby we believe that he is Pope or Peters Successor Becanus clearly resolves That if any stay in the resolution of the Church and ascend not to the Scripture his assent who believes because of the authority of the Church is not an assent of Theological Faith but of an other inferiour order viz. that which Scotus calls an acquired Faith and saith is only conceived by the Churches testimony which indeed is nothing else but an human faith for its such a Faith whereby we believe one that may both be deceived himself and may deceive us although we believe that he will not deceive us Sot lib. 2. de Nat. grat c. 7. Hereupon Sotus acknowledgeth of him that he held the authoritie of the Church to be only humane than which what can be more contradictory to your assertion 3. Ans I grant that the testimony of the Church is an external motive to belief as is also consent of people conformitie of the things believed to natural light accomplishment of Prophecies Miracles Gods Judgments against the Enemies of Truth c. The testimonie of the woman of Samaria was an external motive to the Samaritanes belief not the formal cause of it so the preaching of Godly Ministers is a means whereby men are brought to believe yet you will not conclude that Faith is built on them and they infallible It is the Church by which as a means not for which as the formal ground we do believe Your fifth Argument is taken from the Churches composure and nature 5. Arg. p. 18. 16. in these words Look on the Churches composure and nature and her strength will appear yet more by reason she is framed and made up of men Gen. 22. dispersed and spread over the world Act. 1. who
by this means being of several Nations Ps 11. different tempers and interests Luk. 24. neither could nor can meet or conspire to cheat themselves or posteritie with a lie Which may be reduced to this Syllogism If the Church be composed of men of several Nations different tempers and interests then it 's infallible but it is so composed c. therefore infallible A. To your minor I shall onlie say that if I were not otherwayes perswaded to believe it then by your proofs of it which are to be sought like a Needle in a Bottle of Hey I should doubt of the truth of it Sure you intended your proofs for your Romish Catholiques who you know read not Scripture But what needs all this ado this sensless urging of holy Scripture to prove that the Church is composed of men men of several Nations different tempers and interests But leaving this for your bruitish admirers to ruminate on I deny the consequence of your Major Proposition which is this That society that is framed and made up of men dispersed and spread over the world c. is infallible What Schoolboy that knows what infallibilitie is would assent to this Who knows not that Herod and Pontius Pilate the Jews and Romans men of several Nations of different tempers and interests yet conspired in resisting the Gospel and crucifying of Christ Are not the Mahometans men of several Nations yea more then true Christians possess different tempers and interests yet damnable erroneous What do you think of the 72. Interpreters Oyril Caled 3. pag 99. who were sent by Eleazer the Priest to Ptolemy to translate the Hebrew Text into Greek which they did without any discrepancie eirher in sense or words though kept asunder one from another Do you think they were infallible The Arian Church was composed of men dispersed over the world of different tempers and interests yet most dangerously erroneous Yet further when our Saviour suffered some of your Doctors say the Church was only in the blessed Virgin how would this your argument have proved the Churches infallibilitie at that time Your citation of Gen. 22. and Act. 1. and Ps 11. and Luk. 24. would have been to no purpose Once more shall not the Antichristian Church having these qualifications yet damnably err 2. Tell me what you understand by different tempers and interests Is it that some are godly some wicked some promoters of Christs interest some advancers of the Devils By your tempers mean you that some are hot others cold and a third sort lukewarm And by your different interests that some promote the Popes interest others the interest of Councils against the Pope This is your Churches composure but proves no infallibilitie 3. If the verie seeming contradictions in Scripture overthrow the Protestants Argument for its Divine Authoritie from its concent and harmonie which Vane in his late books labours to prove Why do not your real differences which Bellarmine declares to the world Vane's Lost Sheep p. 16. much more conclude against your infallibility But you seem to be sensible of the insufficient of your Argument and therefore before the end of your Section you flie to Gods assisting and strengthening of the Church whereby she becomes infallible But this I have answered before and avoid repetitions CHAP. V. Of the possibility of keeping the Commandments J Cannot but wonder what your method should be in this book and how this Chapter should come in next to the former When you had spoken so much of conformity of faith to the Church which you account as the first means of supernatural happiness what rational man but would have thought but that you should have said somthing of the conformity of hope to the Lords Prayer which you laid down as a second means and not have leapt to the third in such haste I could almost think that you are secretly proving adoration of that Roman Creature the Church of Rome for in your former Chapter you have been freeing her from Error here you free her from sin for if any be free from sin it must be the Roman Church And your next Chapter is about Religion or religious worship But seeing I have begun I will continue to follow you In this chapter you weave Penelope's Web what you say in the first and second Section you clearlie unsay in the third which will therefore help me in answering your former assertions You begin with exceeding confidence wondering that any can make question of the possibilitie of keeping the Commandments But the ground of this your confidence is misapplication of Scriptures as I shal through Gods assistance make it appear in my answers to you You urge Scripture examples and arguments The Scriptures you mainly urge are these Deut. 30. and Mat. 11.21 1 Deut. 30. They are not above but very neer us in our mouths and in our hearts to do them It s the Argument of your Donatists but makes not for you to prove possibilitie of perfect obedience that which it proves is the perspicuitie of the Law as to the Jews knowledg of it Vatab. Annot in Loc. That word which you render above is by Vatablus rendred Hid non est occultum à te It s not hidden from thee As if he should say to them you have no cause to plead ignorance of the Law seeing it s not hid from you but published to you being in your mouths i. e. in ore Levitarum c. in the mouths of the Levites who are of thy people that thou mayest receive from them those precepts that concern a good lâ—fe Id. ibid. and that they may teach them thee without delay This is more confirmed by his Marginal Note Praeciditur hic c. Here is cut off from the Jews all occasion of pleading their ignorance of the Law 2. These words do mainlie intend the words of Faith Rom. 10.8 i. e. the application of Christs righteousness to us by Faith Thus Lyranus explains it saying Lyran. Ostenditur c. Here is shewed the facility of that righteousness which is by the Faith of Christ which the Apostle opposeth to righteousness by the Law Phil. 3.9 Vatablus is verie clear in this point understanding it of that righteousness which is freely bestowed on Faith his words at large are these Si de sola lege c. If this were spoken only of the Law his argument were frivolous in that the Law of God is nothing easier to be done by being before our eyes then if it were far off Moses therefore in this Chapter as in the fourth doth commend unto the people Gods special good will as appears by that place of Paul Rom. 10 8. in bringing them under his tutorage which commendation could not be taken from the naked Law Nor doth it hinder that Moses preacheth of ordering their life according to the rule of the Law for the free righteousness of Faith hath the Spirit of regeneration accompanying it therefore one is
in all points with themselves therefore are not Protestants The ground of your Major must needs be this Protestants hold in all points with themselves We grant and thankfully accept of your Major proposition together with its foundation and desire you would remember it when you come to tell us of our divisions 2. For your Minor 1. It s verified of their adversaries the Authors you mention as I have particularly shewed 2. There is reason to think they held at least in all main points with themselves 1. Because of the Testimony of Rainerus who saith they believe rightly concerning God and all other articles of the Creed 2. because they were men of good parts and very pious 3. Because your assertion of their dissent is only general When you shew the particulars I shall endeavour their vindication 2. You answer supposing them Protestants There was a great distance between them and the Apostles in which they could not be mentioned forasmuch as they were not begun or were quite extinct Answ 1. If you speak of them as Waldenses that is particular persons followers of Waldus I grant there was a distance betwixt them and the Apostles Thus if you consider of your present Pope it s as true that he is none of Peters successor there being a great distance between him and the Apostle Peter in which he could not be mentioned forasmuch as he was not then in being But 2. If you speak of them as to their profession of the reformed Religion not confining your speech to those particular persons but extending to all that professed the same Religion with them then there is no distance between them and the Apostles as I shall shew when I come to your fourth Shape 3. What you mean by their being quite extinct I know not sure you do not take them to be Jewish heretiques that were extinct before the Apostles and let me tell you that after their rise notwithstanding the fury of Papists which brought many miseries upon them they could never be extinct as the French Historian above mentioned shews But thus much for your first Shape SHAPE II. LUther descended from Catholiques Catholiques from the Apostles therefore Protestants had their Original from the Apostles they deriving themselves uninterruptedly from Luther To this you answer Answ Protestants derivation from Luther is frivolous and of no weight Luther wanting Episcopal authority without which all ordinations are null and frustrate by the confessions of the cheif Protestants themselves See Saravia Sutcliffe Bilson Andrewes White Mason Mountague Hall and others Rep. 1. Protestants derivation from Luther is of weight for any thing you do say against it It s most false that without Episcopal authority all ordinations are null and frustrate For 1. Ordination it self is not of absolute necessity for the constitution of a Pastor In some cases a man may preach the Word without it So did Origen whose practise was justified by divers Bishops Cameron fully asserts this Euseb Eccl. Hist l. 6. c. 20. Cam. Myroth in Eph. 4.11 that private men without formal ordination may teach and feed others with the Word of God 2. Supposing ordination to be of absolute necessity yet that it must be done by Episcopal authority as distinct from Presbyterial is not absolutely necessary so as that it should be null and frustrate without it nor are there any Protestants that I know of that affirms this with you not those who are named by you Sutcliffe one of them speaking of our first reformers hath these words Neither is it material that the first Preachers of the Gospel in these Countries were not Bishops Sutc. review of Kell Survey c. 1. p. 5. and so called as it was in England for suppose no Bishop would have renounced the heresies of Popery nor have taught sincerely should not inferior Ministers teach truth and Ordain other Teachers after them Furthermore they wanted nothing of true Bishops but the Name and Title Finally the right and imposition of hands by such as are called Bishops is not so necessary but that in a defection of Bishops of a Nation and in case of other extream necessity Ministers may lawfully be ordained by other Ministers And he gives divers reasons for it The rest of them are of the same judgment to whom we may add Dr. Prideaux and Dr. Field who shews that not only Protestants Prid. falac controv Theol. loc 4. sec 3. q. 2. Field of the Ch. book 3. c. 39. but Papists in former times were of opinion that in some cases and at some times Presbiters may give Orders and that their ordinations are of force and he further shews that your Suffragens who are but Presbiters do give Orders All judicious Protestants have honourable thoughts of the reformed Churches beyond Seas and of their Ministry though they want Episcopal ordination See a Book of Master Baxter But you bring us in objecting Luther received Episcopal power immediatly from God To which you answer Answ Such a power being extraordinary is always accompanied with that of Miracles as appeared in Moses Exod. 3. And the Apostles Act. 2 14. Luther never wrought Miracle Rep. For any thing I see this might have made another Shape for its independent on this you lead us as the Devil our Saviour into the Wildernesse to be tempted but as he evaded the Devils so we shall do your temptations We say then 1. A power received immediately from God is not always accompanied with that of Miracles The Prophets were caled immediately by God so was John the Baptist and probably Phillip the Deacon Act. 8.14 and the men of Cyprus and Cyrene Act. 11 Yet all of these were not invested with power of Miracles It was so with our Reformers they did not work Miracles nor as you say did pretend to that gift Yet had they sufficient testimonies of their calling as their true Evangelical Doctrine seconded with the holiness of their lives and the wonderfull success of their Preaching These did evidence their divine calling You object Luther's drawing so many after him maugre the Pope Emperor and other Potentates shews only a strange itching in men after novelties and pronenesse to libertinage Arius in a shorter space led away far more Answ 1. I speak not of his successe only or by it self but as accompanied with truth of Doctrine and an holy life and this doth evidence a lawfully called Pastor Thus it was not with Arius or any other heretiques who have been erroneous in their Doctrine and profane in their lives or else successes or if they have had successe they have but been short lived with it none of which can be affirmed of Luther or his adherents 2. I deny that Arius was more succesfull than Luther there is a great disproportion betwixt them herein For 1. Arius had not that opposition that Luther had Arius's opposers were no inquisitors nor cruel Emperors nor cursing Popes nor cut-throat Jesuites but a milde Emperour and some
modest Bishops the weapons wherewith he was assaulted were meek exhortations perswasions entreaties not bulls curses racks tortures that holy age knew no such Ecclesiastical censures as Luther and his followers were acquainted with The French Historian gives this account of Protestants persecutions page 38. The Doctrine of Luther seemed to encrease by the greatnesse of persecutions which might be seen by the hot persecutions in the year 1534. for searches and informations were no sooner made of the prisoners but they were as speedily burnt quick tyed to a stake after swinged into the aire were let fall into the fire and so by a pullise pul'd up and down untill a man might see them all roasted and scorched by a small fire without complaining not able to speak by reason that they had taken out their tongue and gagged them 2. Arius did not set himself against the vices of an usurping lordly power which might have procured him hatred and revengefull opposition but Luther did whose two vices as Erasmus told Fredrick were that he touched the bellies of the Monks and the Crown of the Pope 3. Arius his heresy was not constantly maintained and stuck to Arius recanted and subscribed the Nicen Creed as did others his followers but Luther's Doctrine was constantly maintained by himself and followers without any recantation or counterfeit compliance 4. Arius his heresie did not seem crosse to reason but rather conformable but Luther's did crosse carnal reason the ground of Popish heresies In these regards Luther might more truly becompared with the Apostles than Arius And indeed his Doctrine though you are pleased to slander it as being acceptable and pleasing to the depravednesse of Nature and so contrary to the Apostles Doctrine is the very same for the substance of it that the Apostles taught being no way contrary to mortification of wills religious fasting chastity and the like And therefore it was not itching after novelties and pronnesse to libertinage that drew many after him but a desire of reformation both of Doctrine and Discipline which were exceeding corrupt in the Romish Church whereof very many were sensible and under which they groaned waiting for freedom and this is that which a great Papist saith Neither did Luther in this age come forth alone Alphons de Castro ado haeres epist nuncup but accompanied with a great troop as with a guard waiting for him as for their Captain and Leader who seemed to have expected him before he came and upon his coming did cleave unto him SHAPE III. PRotestants received their mission from Catholique Bishops in Queen Elizabeths daies and since You answer Ans If some did which is to be proved nay the contrary seems to be proved by Doctor Champney it is evident the greater part did not and what a Church must that companie make of which most are judged fit to preach the Word of God and administer the Sacraments without Authoritie Repl. 1. We had Protestant Bishops in England before Queen Elizabeths days eminent oppugners of Popish heresies then in the time of Queen Mary whom notwithstanding your fiery rage God preserved making them to survive her bloody raign by these were others afterways ordained as Bishop Parker who was consecrated by the imposition of hands of Bishop Barloe Bishop Coverdale Bishop Scory and two suffragans So that I know no Protestant that needs to use the shape you impose upon us nor do I think any doth but you set up moments and then shoot at them which is a very learned and ingenious prank But 2. Supposing it our Shape I say to your answer 1. Divers Popish Catholiques in Queen Maries days were Protestants in Queen Elizabeths and these might have an hand in Ordinations afterwards 2. Though the greater part of our Pastors received not Mission from Popeish Bishops yet they might have authority You beg the question when you tell us that they are not ordained by Popeish Bishops have no authority We had lawful Bishops Pastors in England before your Pope or any of his gowned Factors knew England But you answer 2ly Admit the calling of Protestant Bishops and Pastors were right in all of them it would not follow that the Protestant Church is true so long as she advanceth Protestantism contrary to the meaning of the Catholique Bishops who never impowâ—red any but in relation to the setting up and upholding of Catholique Religion Rep. 1. If you admit this it will follow according to your principles that there is personal succession and consequently a true Church inasmuch as derivati n of succession is so proper to the true Church that it cannot agree to any false as St. Hierom in Nucam 1. Observeth Sir you remember the words they are your own page 41. but oportet mendacem esse memorem 2. True Religion is not to be measured by mens meaning but by the Word of God So then if according to Gods Word protestantism be the true Religion it s no great matter what your Catholiques Bishops meaning be 3. Catholique Bishops ought to ordain men in order to the setting forth of the unsearchable riches of Christ Eph. 3.8 To preach the Gospel Col. 1.25 Mark 16.15 This is contained in the Scriptures If your Bishops ordain men to preach any thing else they are abusers of their power their ordination is impure and unlawfull and so far to be frustrated Thus our Protestant Bishops and Pastors that have been ordained by you retain that which is pure viz. power to preach the word and administer the Sacraments but reject that which is evil in your ordinations we retain the power which is good and from God but reject those circumstances of yours which accompany the conveiance of it and are evil 2ly You say Communion with the true Church being as necessary a requisite to the makeing up of a true Church as union of parts to the compleating of a natural body what colour for truth in the Protestant Church that is at variance with the Catholique of whom she glorieth to have her power and which she confesseth to be a true Church Repl. 1. I grant that communion with the true Church is necessary but your inference hereupon is vain For 1. We deny that the Popish Church is the Catholique Church You appropriate that name to your selves but who gives it you Indeed the Roman Church in her purity before shee was infected with the Leeven of Popery was a Catholique Church Euseb eccl Hist l. 4. c. 15. l. 10. c. 7. Socr. schol l. 2. c. 2. but so were other Churches called as well as shee with whom you hold no communion now nor they with you as the Church of Smyrna Alexandria Carthage 2. It s not necessary to the constitution of a true Church to have communion with you The Eastern Churches were as much at variance with you as Protestants are yet they were tâ—ue Churches The Affrican Bishops did oppose divers of your Popes one after another telling them they should
hid and conceal their opinions and whilst the Church doth what she can to cast them out of her These would be a plea for your Church if the supposition were true But you urge further thus Protestants Bishops and Pastors if mingled with Catholiques did neither beleeve nor profess their Doctrine but only concealed and covered their own for fear of the formidable rigour of Catholiques and such could neither be true nor make a saving Church Not true because the mission of true Bishops and Pastors being founded upon persecution and suffering Mat. 10. Luk. 11. it is proper to them to fear no Colours nor make up a saving Church by reason profession of faith is necessary to Salvation Rom. 10. Mat. 10. Repl. 1. It must not be granted that Protestant Pastors did meerly conceal and cover their own Faith and Doctrine there was much crying out against errors and disorders in the Popes Church by many though not without sufferings Gersom for speaking freely against the disorders of the Roman Church was deprived of his goods and dignities by the Pope and expulsed the University by the Sorbonists Laurentius valla was exiled by the Pope John of Vesalia a preacher at Worms was sharply handled by the inquisitors for opposing indulgences auricular confession Pilgrimages Merit c. Berengerius openly declared against Transubstantiation for which he was not well handled Read our Martirologies and it will evidently appear that Protestants did not only not conceal their own Doctrines but opposed yours 2. It s not simply unlawful nor altogether unsuitable to the true saving members of the Church to conceal or hide the truth Confession is a duty but the precept binds not ad semper there are some cases wherein it s not necessary viz. 1. When we are not brought before authority to be examined about our Faith but if we be brought before them our Sauiours precept Mat. 10 binds us to Confession 2. When by our profession there is no hopes of doing good or bringing any advantage to the truth Hos 4.4 Mat. 7.6 Thus Protestants might conceal the truth when they saw their Confession was not advantageous to the Truth or the Salvation of those with whom they were although when brought before authority they did still profess it and dye for it 3ly They might be lawful Pastors though they might conceal the truth from their enemies for a time else what think you of Peter who did more then conceal even deny his Religion Of Liberius who accepted of Arianism Certainly if these were not true Bishops your Chain of Succession will be a broken piece Your Priests in England at this day hide their persons and with them the open confession of their supposed Truth they preach not openly they administer not the Sacraments openly they exercise not their mortal Devils openly and that for fear of apprehension and punishment due to such Vagabonds and yet your ignoramusses depend upon their Benediction as Spiritual Fathers 4ly Your reason is divers ways peccant 1. It s improper to say the Mission of true Bishops is founded upon persecutions and sufferingse 1. Are persecutions the Bases of pastoral Mission then if persecution cease the Bishops and Pastors cease to be true Bishops and Pastors the building cannot stand when the Foundation is fallen then your Popes or Cardinals c. are no true Bishops or Pastors for they live in great pomp and ease and suffer nothing unless that by their intemperance they get bodily diseases which is nothing to Truth Indeed since through your freedom from persecutions your Chalâ—ces were of gold your Priests have been but wooden Images 2. You mistake the cause of their concealing the Truth which was not a distracting and a distrustful fear which looks mainly at torments as you imagine but their fear was a sober fear 1. Lest the Church of God should be deprived of them by reason of their profession of truth at such a time when there was no visible advantage accruing to it 2. Lest they should incur the guilt of their own deaths by unreasonable profession See Mat. 7.6 Whence Lyranus infers Lyran. in Mat. 7.6 that the secrets of Faith are not to be revealed to obstinate unbeleevers because hereby may ensue the derision of the Catholique Faith and the murder of the Ministers Our Saviour gives liberty to his Disciples if they were persecuted in one City to fly to another Mat. 10.23 Yet bids them not fear Ver. 26. Clemens Alexandrinus sets this forth very well speaking of flying in time of persecution Swadet fugere c. He perswades us to flee not as if it were evil to suffer persecution nor that we should fear death but he would not have us authors or abettors of evil either to our selves or him that persecutes or him that kills us for he warns us that we be cautelous but he that obeys not is audacious and rash and unadvisedly casts himself upon manifest dangers now if he that slays a Man of God sins against God he also is guilty of this murder who doth not avoid persecution but through audacity offers himself to be apprehended for in as much as in him lies he helps on the wickedness of the persecutor Otherwise our Protestant Bishops and Pastors have as couragiously professed the truth and for it undergone with patience and constancy as great torments from Popeish hands as ever any in any age of the world did So that were you not blinded with rage against Protestants you could not but blush to charge them with fearfulness of professing the truth For a conclusion of this I desire you look home to your English Priests those Hedghogs whose appearance is mainly in the night and in darkness who are so far from a voluntary and open profession of their faith that I do not know of any one that ever suffered upon this account viz. the open and publike profession of his faith though they pretend themselves guarded with power of miracles which might make them more valiant 5. If your self were of that stout Spirit you charge us with the want of what needed you to write Paris for London or L. B. for your concealed name 5ly You conclude your Answer to this Shape with an exposition of the parables of the Wheat and Chaff Mat. 3. and of the Fishes Mat. 13. to which you say The comparisons are ment of private men for matter of manners and not of any mixture of true and false doctrine Orthodoxal and Heretical Bishops and Pastors tâ—gether Rep. 1. It s most certain that these comparisons do set forth the mixture which is in the visible Church which your self even now contradicted Yea 2. These mixtures extends to mixtures of Doctrine and Teachers as well as of private Christians in manners the ordinary gloss understands Mat. 13.25 Of the mixture of Heretiques with the Elect. Augustin also by Cockle doth understand Heretiques who in this world are mingled with the Orthodox his words are ful against you Aug. Ap.
and originally in God as Lord paramount of all creatures but not incommunicable for as he hath bestowed the power of governing Kingdomes and Common-wealths on Kings and Magistrates Prov. 8.15 Rom. 13.1 So the power of remitting sins on the Apostles and their successours yet men having these powers by way of gift and participation may not be said to govern or to forgive sins but as Gods substitutes and delegates suitably to the condition of their inferiority and subjection Reply 1. Gods power as to some of its acts is incommunicable His power of Creation is naturally in him and incommunicable to any creature so is his damning and saving power whereby he makes one a vessell of wrath another of mercy of this nature is his power of remitting sin It is God that justifies and it was a serious question though wrongly applied of the Scribes Who can forgive sins but God only Mark 2.7 others cannot do it and therefore Bed doth hereby prove Christs divinitâ— saith he Solus Dâ—us remittit peccata c. Bed apud Lyran ib i.e. God onely remits sins and the Son of man hath power of remiting sin therefore God and the Son of man are the same thus the Son of man by his divinity doth remit sins but by his humanity he is enabled to dy for sinners For the clearing of this I observe that remission of sins may be considered two wayes viz. 1. As it is a judiciall act and denotes formall pardon Thus it belongs to the supreme Lord against whom the crâ—mes are directly committed and his absolution is onely satisfactory to the offender as Soto on Rom. 8.33 very well shewes 2. As it is a Declaration of that act already passed by the supreme Lord. As in human Courts the judiciall act or formall absolution belongs to the Judge but the declaration of this is in the crier 'T is thus in the Church The Church is the crier but God the Judge his act is an act of power and authority whereby Pardon is formally obtained but so is not theirs This is confessed by the most noted Schoolmen Lombard is clear for it Ita operatur sacerdos Evangelicus c. Lomb. lib. 4. dist 18. F. The Evangelicall Priest saith he doth so act and judge in the absolving from sin as the legall Priest did on them that had the Leprosie Now its evident that the Priest did not make them clean but onely upon Gods cleansing of them declared them to be clean nor is this the judgement of him onely but of many other Schoolmen and Lombard proves it from Hierom and Ambrose Now if the Church of Rome not content with the act of declaring sin pardoned do in a Pharasaicall pride as Lombard speaks claim to it self a judiciall power which Ambrose calls jus potestatis then it s certainly true that the Romane Church claims a power that belongs onely to God But it s certainly true that this Church claims a power the Trent Councill is clear and full for it Concil Trid sess 14. cap. 6. Can. 9. ap Binnium So that she Anathematizeth whosoever shall say that is no judiciall act but onely an office of pronouncing and declaring that sins are pardoned to the penitent sinner This is that we charge upon your Church as an hereticall opinion What you say in answer to our Objection I know not whether it be in vindication of your Church or in meer opposition to us you have so darkly folded up your opinion that I know not what it is You say The successours of the Apostles have power to forgive sins as Gods substitutes and delegates suitably to the condition of their inferioritie and subjection You should have told us what this suitable power is for the power your Church claims is not a suitable power for her even in the judgement of your Schoolmen And if you deny her that you confess with us that she claims a power that belongs onely to God Your allusion is nothing unless you can prove that as God hath bestowed power of governing on Kings so hath he given the Apostles and their successours the power of formall remission 4. Objection THe fourth Objection is The Roman Church derogateth from Christs Mediatorship making it common to Saints and Angels Answ 1. Things that are like have eftsoons the same denomination so Kings and Judges are called Gods for some resemblance betwixt Gods power and theirs Psal 81.1.6 The Roman Church then observing in the intercession of Saints and Angels a certain likeness to the mediation of Christ they being both expressions of charitable and good desires for others may not unfitly call them alike by the name of mediation Reply 1. That things that are like have sometime the same denomination none will question but the ground of this is not alwayes likness or resemblance as you seem to assert different things altogether unlike may have the same denomination whilest those that have some likeness cannot The children of God who have his Image and are partaker of the divine nature are not to be called Gods though Magistrates are Psal 82. There are two reasons or grounds whereupon the names of God or Christ may be given to creatures 1. Relation the persons stand in unto God and Christ thus Judges are called Gods and Moses is said to be a God to Pharaoh Exod. 7.1 because Judges and Moses stood in Gods stead were his Vice-royes his Ambassadours 2. Divine authoritie seconding the relation I have said ye are Gods and all of you the children of the most High c. Psal 82.6.105 15. God saith of his children Touch not my Christs Now according as God gives these names to creatures so may we provided that we give them 1. Onely to those to whom he gives them 2. That we give them not to any as properly belonging to them but onely as metaphoricall expressions 3. Nor ordinarily but upon speciall and extraordinary occasions and with allusions to Gods own words Against these the men of Lystra offended when they called Paul and Barnabas Gods Act. 14.1 It s not lawfull for us to give the Title of God to Magistrates ordinarily in our speaking to them nor to say to others ye are Jehovah or Christ or the Evangelicall Priest or Mediator for the reasons now implied The Apostle expresly saith There is one God and one Mediator between God and men the Man Christ Jesus 1 Tim. 2.5.2 If likeness ground a denomination yet it remains doubtfull what likeness doth it There is nothing in the world but hath some kind of likeness to God yet you may not call every thing God though it may be this was the manner of the Heathens deifying of every creature till it came to herbes 3. The likeness betwixt the intercession of Saints and Angels supposing these to interceed though you prove it not and mediation of Christ is so little that it cannot be thought a sufficient ground for this denomination What ever you can say of the intercession of Saints
and every thing in it and consequently that the creature doth fully represent the divine Essence and yet the Scripture tells us that none can see God and live 2. It s untrue that in seeing the divine Essence you see all its effects Aquin. 1. part 7.12 Art 8. per tot cajet ibid. Aquinas demonstrates the contrary by the example of the Angels who see the divine Essence yet are ignorant of future contingencies and the thoughts of the hearts and he further shewes that it s not necessary that he that sees a glass should see all things in the glass unless he perfectly comprehend the glass in his sight Now there is no creature that doth perfectly comprehend God Cyril excellently sets this forth of the Angels speaking of God Cyril Hieros Catech. 7. p. 169. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. Whose face the Angels do perpetually see in heaven but they see every one according to the measure of his own degree but the sublime splendor of the fatherly vision its lawfull onely for the Son and the Holy Ghost to behold Doe you think that the Saints see in God the thoughts of mens hearts yet many prayers are no more but the inward groans of the heart if you say they doe then according to Aquinas they arrogate that which is proper to God if not then they see not all the efects in God and you have not given us any distinction of effects visible or not visible 3. Object You say it will be opposed If Saints and Angels have not mens prayers before God proposeth them he knoweth them beforehand whence may be inferd that their intercession is needless Answ 1. Gods foresight of mens prayers maks not the intercession of Saints and Angels any way unprofitable and fruitless inasmuch as the effect intended thereby is not to better Gods understanding but to obtain from his blessed Will mercy and compassion c. Reply 1. The Objection doth not refer to Gods foresight meerly which may be from all eternitie He foreseeing all things before they were but to Gods actuall receiving of them from us and so proposing them to the Saints Now I assert that this doth make the intercession of Saints and Angels unprofitable yea no intercession For first according to Papists the reason why we look for an Intercessor is this we dare not come to God immediately hence is that Court-like instance and frequently urged of a subject who not daring to come into the presence of the King immediately presents his Petitions to some of his Courtiers and by him to the King But here forgetting your instance you first present your Petitions to the King making him your Letter carrier to his Courtiers and this say you for this end that his Courtiers may move his goodness which how rationall it is let the simplest of your Synagogue judge 2. According to your Rhemists the property of a Mediator or Intercessor is to offer up our Prayers to God Now he that offers up any thing to another doth not immediately receive his offering from him to whom he offers but from him for whom he offers To say Saints receive Prayers from God that they may offer them to God is very harsh and unscripturall language Reply 2. If our Prayers go immediately to God and then to Saints and they immediately obtain from Gods blessed Will mercy and compassion from us What room hath Christ for his intercession or how are Saints Mediatores ad Mediatorem It s difficult to set up Saints as Intercessors and not to nullifie the intercession of Christ Jesus But you urge Princes have often notice of subjects imprisonment and condemnation yet seldom give reprives of inlargements but at the intreaty of some friend or favorite Reply 1 Princes do not usually receive and deliver Petitions directed to their Favourites that thereby their favourites may move them to compassion 2. Princes often give reprieves or inlargements at the entreaty of the imprisoned or condemned 3. The Apostle tells us clearly who is that favourite that receiving our Petitions doth procure reprieves or enlargements for guiltie sinners viz. Jesus Christ the righteous 1 John 2.1 2. You answer Men are wished yea warranted to pray for one another 1 Tim. 2. notwithstanding God hath the foresight of their wants and necessities Reply 1. For shame do not thus fight with your own shadow what Protestant doubts of Gods foresight of Prayers or who asserts that Prayers are for the bettering of Gods understanding 2. When men pray one for another they have not the sight of your supercelestiall Vtopian looking-glass but being by their friends acquainted with their wants they are intreated to joyn with them in seeking Gods mercy through Jesus Christ 3. You answer Davids adulterie and guilt of blood were in the sight of God unpardoned till after a low humiliation and an hearty acknowledgement of his fault 1 King 12. Reply This being nothing to purpose shall pass unanswered till you can make it appear more materiall 5. Objection THe fifth Objection is The Roman Church entertaineth divisions and contrariety in Religion The Dominicans maintaining a Physicall predetermination the Jesuits a Morall those that the Virgin Mary was conceived in Originall sin these that she was prevented by Grace and conceived in the same And if this be not enough to infer contrarietie in Religion several Councells have contradicted each other Answ 1. Not every difference but a difference in point of Faith makes division and contrariety in Religion The Dominicans and Jesuits onely quarrell about Opinions it being not matter of belief that Gods Predestination is Physicall or Morall or that the blessed Virgin was conceived in Originall sin or grace These are meer School nicities and not at all destructive to that Vnity which Catholicks so much reverence in Religion Reply 1. You deal deceitfully with your followers and us in making your many divisions to seem few and your great ones small Are the differences in the Roman Church only two viz. about Predetermination and the Virgin Mary Whosoever reads Azorius's Moralls but especially Bellarmines Controversies shall find scarce one point of divinity wherein there is not difference amongst Papists Some have numbered 300. different Opinions of Papists out of Bellarmines Controversies and those about Points controverted between them and us Now if the differences between them and us be about Points of Faith as it seems they are else we could not be accounted Heretical and not meer Opinions their is no question but theirs are of the same nature there being no Opinion of the Church but hath some one or more Papists joyning with us in opposing it 2. You might have done well to have informed us what are Points of Faith and what Opinions for these Points you mention seem to be points of Faith For first those things that constitute a point of Faith with you agree to them As first its authority from the Word of God which you branch into Scriptrre and