you that we have no hopes of you as you are Papists Those Articles wherein you differ from us shall greatly indanger but in no wise advance your Salvation What makes us admit of a possibility of your being sav'd is because you hold still the same Creed with us and because though you have much shaken and weakned yet ye have not quite overthrown the Foundation that is Jesus Christ and his saving merits which we hope will avail to those of your Church that trust in them though they ignorantly believe those things as would make them ineffectual if understood or relied on As for your so much cryed up Succession it signifies no more than this that now the Pope is Bishop of the same Town as St. Peter was or at least a Town of the same name for old Rome hath been destroyed long agone But pray supposing that St. Peters Successors were to be the Heads of the Church who told you that he did not leave that priviledge at Antioch where his Sea was first How many Ruptures and Schisms hath there been in your Succession and how many hath there been of your Popes guilty of the greatest Impieties and worst of Heresies Your own Authors can inform you as also how good and bad Orthodox and Heretick Bishops have succeeded one another in all Seas But make the best of it as you can what is it to the truth or untruth of those points we differ about Because now _____ sits in the same Chair as St. Peter did therefore there is a Purgatory and men ought to Worship Images and the Pope is infallible c. A very Logical Inference as good as that of the man who because he sate in Tullies Pew would needs perswade himself and others that he had Tullies Eloquence But there is Miracles daily wrought in your Church by some Saint or other 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 This is something indeed but 't is common to all Religions Monsieur Bernier a man of your Church will tell you as an eye-witness of it that the Turks and Gentiles pretend to the same and are more perswaded of the truth of their Miracles than I believe many in your Church are of the truth of yours But let me tell you that Miracles are for Infidels not for Believers St. Paul could not heal Trophimus to him a beloved Christian though among the Unbelievers he could even raise up the dead We believe the Religion Preached by the blessed Apostles upon the account of those Miracles they wrought when they were yet alive without their Reliques and Images work the same wonders now we are perswaded of the truth of what they then delivered And the truth is you are so your selves You don't pretend your new Miracles to confirm those Essential Doctrines of the Christian Religion which you and we are agreed about Your greatest Miracle-mongers have hardly reported any one Miracle wrought these five or six hundred years in these parts of the World to authorize Christian Religion or to prove the Doctrine of the blessed Trinity or of the two Natures united in Christ into one person about which points were most of the ancient Heresies or any one Article of the Creed they are all to confirm your new-found Doctrines The Cures as the Saints work upon those that worship their Images the appearing of dead Folks to beg for Masses and Prayers the return of Souls out of Purgatory to tell how hot the fire is and how well worth ones money Indulgences are the wonders done by your Fryars or the Founders of their Orders or of some one who is to be Canonized and most of them so ridiculous and so absurd that I believe the most serious Bigot amongst you can hardly hold laughing at the reading of your Legends and Books of Miracles And so of those three things you so much relied on the first is against you the second signifies nothing and the last exposeth to contempt those Doctrines it should justifie P. Well I did not think that you could say so much for your selves and I assure you I shall hereafter have a better opinion of you than ever I had thus much at least shall I be profited by our long Discourse and now Sir fare you well I thank G. Nay don't thank me 't is I should thank you for telling me so plainly those Doctrines of your Church we disagree about and which usually you so misrepresent to those of our Religion that they hardly ever know the truth of what your Church believes But pray don't go away yet I 'll help you to that company as you will like much better than mine I 'll tell you whose 't is when first I have desired these two things of you First that you would consider how greatly suspicious it is that your Church maintains those Doctrines we call Errours more for their profitableness to her than for any other reasons because they all tend to the increasing of her Riches or Authority The Popes Infallibility and his Power of disposing of all the World for the good of Souls the exemption of the Clergy from the power of the Civil Magistrate the requisiteness of their intention in the administring of your Sacraments how powerful how honourable and withal how dreadful must the belief of these make your Church and Church-men The Doctrine of Purgatory of Jubilees Pardons Indulgences and worshipping of Saints the best part whereof is the offering to them what Estates what Riches what a world of profit doth it bring to the Head and all the Members of your Clergy In those points of Christian Religion that concern not her Interest your Church is sound and Orthodox those beggerly Heresies of the Arians Eutichian Macedonians c. are condemned and detested by her as much as ever they were by the first Councils yours are Golden Errours if they are gross and palpable yet they are profitable and advantageous The Pope is none of those mean Souls that will hold erroneous Opinions meerly out of perverseness and obstinacy Si Jus violandum c. si Religio adulteranda regnandi causa if he errs at least he shall reign by it And so now reciprocally the Popes Greatness is the best argument to maintain those Errours whereby he got it the splendor of his own and the interest he hath in the Courts of several Princes the dependency all the Clergy hath upon him the numerous Legions of Souldiers he hath quartered in all Abbeys and Monasteries and the influence they have upon the common people his Inquisitions and his Ravilliacks these be the best proofs to evidence the truth of those Doctrines we have rejected as well as to uphold his Pontifical Chair over the Throne of Christian Princes The other is that remaining in the Communion of your Church you would think those the most substantial Articles of your Faith which were delivered by the Apostles confirm'd by the first Councils and now believ'd by you and us together and that upon them you would
meaning of Scripture and make themselves blind that they may be led by those that pretend to Infallibility and a supreme Authority in things of Faith As for the Decisions of your Popes and Councils it hath been observed by learned men of ours that they are also subject to mis-interpretation and that they have not been able so much as to compose any one of those Differences that have been and are still amongst you And indeed why should not God speak as plain as the Pope in what is absolutely necessary to be known Is it because he is not able or because he is not willing we should know the truth But Friend whilst you tax the Scripture with obscurity and make the people think 't is a dangerous Book see whether you do â—ot give the lie to God himself who saith Ps 19 7 8. The â—aw of the Lord is perfect converting the soul the Testimony of the Lord is sure making wise the simple according to Rome it should have been making the simple to err The Statutes of the Lord are right rejoycing the heart the commandment of the Lord is pure enlightning the eye not blinding or darkning the eye Psal 119 105. In another place Thy word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path Could any thing be more express against the charge of obscurity 2 Cor. 4.3 4. And so S. Paul saith If our Gospel be hid it is hid to them that perish in whom the God of this world hath blinded the minds lest the light of the glorious Gospel of Christ who is the image of God should shine unto them It seems the Gospel hath a light that shines unto men and the devil endeavours to blind them that they may not see it and whether the Pope be not an useful instrument to that effect let them judge that are not yet quite blind Sure if there was so great a danger in reading the Scriptures God would not have commanded his people so absolutely to study his Law Christ would not have preached to the multitudes for his words might be misinterpreted as well spoken as written and the Apostles should not have directed their Epistles to all the people of Corinth Ephesus c. We should rather have been forbidden searching the Scriptures and sent to his Holiness to know what we must believe and do P. Sir you are tedious in your Reasons and Proofs and whereas I cite only one of our approved Doctors at a time and that in few words you bring me I don't know how many places of Scripture I had rather you would tell me what Luther or the Church of Geneva have resolv'd in these Controversies G. 'T would be to no purpose for we regard not their opinions nor those of any private men but as far as they agree with the truth Our Church is founded upon that Catholic and unchangeable truth which God hath revealed in the Sacred Books and which hath been and is still entertain'd by all those that own the Fundamentals of Christianity Therefore as I have told you 't will be the shortest way for me to back those Doctrins of our Church which oppose any of yours by the authority of Gods Revelations his most Holy Word which is a sufficient foundation for us to ground our faith upon P. As far as I can see you are run a great way off from us for we as many as own the Pope to be the Head and Monarch of the Church never mind what the Scripture saith we follow blind-fold the Judgment of our Church as a most infallible guide Bellar. de Rom. Pont. l. 4. c. â— We believe that neither the Pope nor the particular Church of Rome can err in things of Faith Non solum Pontifex Romanus non potest errare in fide sed neque Romana particularis Ecclesia No Sir take it from Bellarmin Bellar. de Eccles l. â— c. 14. It is absolutely impossible that the Church should err in any thing whether it be necessary or not Nostra est sententia Ecclesiam absolute non posse errare nec in rebus absolute necessariis nec in aliis G. And you Sir take it from experience that the Church of Rome could and hath greatly erred in many things if it be an error to make huge additions to the antient Creeds and to go directly against the Word of God And though it be impossible that ever the Universal Church should forsake and deny the saving truths of Christian Religion because of the Promise of Christ Matth. 16.18 Yet any one particular Church or Society of Christians though never so great may err and that in Fundamentals as we know of some Pseudo-Councils that have broach'd or confirm'd damnable Heresies And accordingly the Scripture saith Rom. 3.4 Let God be true and every man a liar the Bishop of Rome himself is not excepted And doubtless if the Church of Rome was infallible and the only guide that can lead us to heaven God who hath revealed to us the way to happiness would not have omitted so essential a thing But instead of a command wholly to rely on the judgment of the Pope speaking ex Cathedra we are commanded to prove all things 1 Thess 5 2â— 1 Joh. 4.1 and to hold fast that which is good and again to try the spirits whether they be of God because many false Prophets are come out into the world Now how shall we try them but by the Word of God and if we find you do not follow it why should we any longer follow you Find me as many Texts out of Gods Word to prove that your great Bishop is infallible and that we are all bound to believe every thing he saith as I have produc'd already for the Divine Authority of Scripture and its sufficiency to bring us unto Salvation and then we 'll weigh them together and my faith shall follow the heavier Scale But when we prove and demonstrate that you err and go directly against Scripture for you to come and say that it is impossible because you are infallible and free from all error is to my thinking a very odd and unsatisfactory answer P. Well if you talk of Scripture till to morrow I am sure ours is the Antient Catholic Church without the which there is no salvation But your Religion is a new upstart you cannot shew me where it was and the Professors of it two hundred years ago G. As for the Professors where they were and that there were many even in the highth of Popery is a long Historical labour but ready done to my hand by several learned men the Author of Catalogus testium Verit. Abbot Vsher Fox White c. They were in the Eastern and Greec Churches much larger than that of Rome they were amongst you some declar'd and marty'd for it some for peace sake living in the Communion of your Church and some conceled for fear of your cruelty sighing in secret for
though I find nothing for it in Scripture had I not found that he hath really erred and that very grosly whence I infer that therefore his Infallibility and supreme Authority are Chimeras mere devices of his own brain the which I am in no wise bound to obey being they pervert and oppose the plainest truths in the New Testament As that Christ is now in heaven by his bodily presence and not on the Altars as it is in the Creed he is ascended into heaven from whence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead and in Acts 3.20 Whom the heavens must contain until the restitution of all things That we are forgiven and cleansed by the death and merits of Christ not by Purgatory and Indulgences 1 Joh. 1.7 And the bloud of Jesus Christ cleanseth us from all sins ibid. 2.2 He is the propitiation for our sins and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world That the offering of himself on the Cross hath fully satisfied for sin and that his sacrifice needs not be renewed daily and be offered corporally in the Mass for the sins of the living and the dead as you teach and do Heb. 9.26 But now once in the end of the world he hath appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself c. In those things that are evidently against the Word of God we are resolv'd to follow Scripture rather than the head of your Church and we 'll rather for ever break with him than to suffer him to put out our eyes that so he may guide us at his own pleasure P. Yea those be the fruits of translating the Bible and performing Divine Service in the vulgar Tongues every one of you can find fault with the Doctrins and Constitutions of the Church and talk Scripture from morning to night we see among your selves what Disorders it hath caused If your Clergy had been wise enough to have still retein'd the Latin Tongue in all their Ministrations the people could have dislik'd and censur'd nothing 't was sufficient for them to have light enough to follow their guides more submission and obedience with less knowledge had done better Bellar de Verbo Dei l. 2. c. 15. That hath been the wisdom of our Church to keep the Scripture and the publick prayers of our Church out of the peoples reach by forbidding them to be read in any vulgar tongue Catholica Ecclesia prohibet ne in publico communi usu Ecclesiae Scripturae legantur vel canentur vulgaribus linguis ut in Concilio Tridentino SS 22. Can. 9. Sed contenti sumus tribus illis linguis quas Dominus titulo crucis suae honoravit G. Because some men stumble and fall at noon-day must the Sun be charged with a fault that proceeds from their heedlesness and would it become one to say that therefore 't is safer to grope in the dark because then people tread more warily Or must therefore mens eyes be put out because then they shall be willing to be led and to follow their guides S. Peter saith that the unstable and unlearned in his time wrested some difficult things written by Saint Paul and other Scriptures to their own destruction Yet he doth not say therefore let not the common people read them but rather dedicates his Epistle to all those that were partakers of the Christian Faith and exhorts them to grow in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ ibid. v. 18. S. Paul reckons Idolatry Heresies and Schisms among the fruits of the flesh Gal. 5.20 but doth not any where impute them to the reading of Holy Scripture and it hath been observ'd that the perversness of men of great Learning hath been the cause of Heresies and not the mistakes or ignorance of ordinary people in reading the Bible However we have a whole Chapter in the New Testament against the speaking in an unknown tongue as you do in all your Churches 1 Cor. 15.11 If I know not the meaning of the voice I shall be unto him that speaketh a Barbarian and he that speaketh shall be a Barbarian unto me that 's the relation betwixt your Priests and your people they are Barbarians one to another the whole Chapter is to that purpose and would be too long to be transcrib'd But if Scripture had been silent in this one would think that common Reason would have kept men from a practice so absurd and ridiculous that a man should present a petition and know not what he asks and be taught his duty by words he doth not understand is a strange and incredible thing which Reason alone confutes most strongly And yet for all this I do hugely commend the wisdom of your Church in this particular for that hath maintain'd the Popes Religion and Credit for some hundreds of years the understanding of Mass and Scripture hath already prov'd fatal to his authority and should once the rest of his flock be able to compare both together 't is to be fear'd he that hath rewarded many of his friends with the gift of titular Bishopricks might come to be himself a titular Bishop P. I see you value an universal Council as little as you do Bellarmin alone and have as many things to object against it I wonder how you dare in any wise oppose the authority of such an Assembly and think your Judgment is to be prefer'd to theirs G. And I wonder how you can call the Council of Trent universal when there was none in it of the Clergy of the Reformed Churches which are almost as large and populous here in the West as those of the Roman Religion But especially because none of the Christians of Aethiopia nor of those that are subject to the Patriarchs of Antioch and Constantinople whose Jurisdiction is of a far larger extent than that of the Bishop of Rome were present at it Pray did you never hear that a great Company of Arrians met once together and confirmed their Errors and cursed all those that would not embrace it and call'd themselves an Universal Council just so did that Company of Papists that met at Trent But had they been twice as many more you should not wonder how I dare oppose them but rather consider whether what I say be rational or no and whether what you call my private judgment be not rather the express words of Scripture But pray proceed and tell me what your Church thinks of Images and Saints for we are told that you worship them P. Yes Bellar. de San. beat l. 1. c. 19. and that very devoutly and to our great advantage by making religious Invocations to them whether they be men or angels Sancti sive angeli sive homines pie atque utiliter invocantur G. Now I wonder too how you dare do that for I find that when Cornelius would have worshipped S. Peter the holy Apostle took him up saying Acts 10.26 Rev. 19.10 that he himself was a
plus quam Deus praecipit multo magis potest implere praeceptum G. Very good so say the worst of our Fanatics that they are perfect and without sin yet I confess you do not fansie your people to fansie so that privilege is granted only to some choice ones and that long after they are dead and therein you act with much discretion Contr. 3. Quaest 11. as Stapleton saith Summa cum ratione introductum fuit ut Canonizatio per solum summum Pontificem fiat For some must be more than just that the Pope may have works of Supererogation to hoord up and the people must be kept from that Perfection that he may have Chap-men to buy those sacred Wares But God's Amanuenses who had none of them to sell teach quite otherwise 1 Kings 8.46 Ps 130.3 Eccl. 7.20 that There is no man that sinneth not that If God should mark iniquities not any man could stand that There is not a just man upon earth that doth good and sinneth not In all these there is not so much as one Frier excepted So the dearest Apostle of our Blessed Saviour tells us If we say that we have no sin we deceive our selves 1 Joh. 1.8 and the truth is not in us God requires the utmost of our love whatever we do out of love is due and sure what we do upon other Motives is not meritorious in that sense as you take it Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart Matt. 22.37 with all thy soul and with all thy mind And our Blessed Lord and Redeemer hath taught all Christians even the most perfect to say in their daily Offices Luk. 11.4 Forgive us our sins P. You know how the Fox that had no tail would persuade others to cut off theirs I am sure we are told Beyrling prompt mor p. 37 that you live most unchristian lives and that ye have an irreconcileable quarrel against all Good Works Therefore ye would fain persuade us that no body can attain to Perfection here and that Good Works are not meritorious But for all you can say We will believe that they are and that not only of temporal blessings but of life eternal it self and of the highest degree of glory by their own dignity Bellar. de Justif l. 5. c. 1. Ibid. c 20. Probavimus bona opera justorum vere proprie esse merita merita non cujuscunq praemii sed ipsius vitae aeternae Nos existimamus vitam aeternam tum quoad primum gradum tum quoad caeteros reddi bonis meritis filiorum Dei G. We little regard those foul aspersions you cast upon us the first and best Christians were made as vile by the Heathen as possibly you can make us neither have we any quarrel against good Works We make them absolutely necessary to salvation and we teach according to Scripture that God will reward them with eternal life but to say that they do really and properly merit it ex condigno without respect to Christ and the Promise We dare not be so presumptuous especially because of these Scriptures The wages of sin is death Ro. â— 23 and the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. It should have been according to your Doctrin And the wages of works is eternal life Ps 143.2 Enter not into judgment with thy servant for in thy sight shall no man living be justified How much less rewarded with the highest degree of eternal glory Lu 17. â—0 When ye have done all those things that are commanded you say we are unprofitable servants We have done what was our duty to do But I forget that you can do more than all that is commanded you and belike 't is that overplus that makes the Merits of Condignity S. Paul saith 1 Cor. 6.19 20. 1 Cor 4 7. Ro. â— 18 That we are not our own because we have been bought with a price And in another place What hast thou that thou didst not receive And lastly that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that shall he revealed in us Let any man weigh these Scriptures and see whether they favour more your absolute Merits than our Doctrin of denying our own righteousness for to rely on Gods merciful Promises in Christ for a reward to our syncere though imperfect Services and good Works P. Well if we had no Merits of our own yet we are not left destitute Oh the happiness of those that live in the lap of the Church that good Mother will let them want for nothing if a child of hers is not furnisht with meritoriousness but hath rather many sins to answer for as it is the case of a great many yet he shall not be left without help She will make over to him the satisfactions of others who have suffered more than their sins required Bellar. de Indulg l. 1. c. 2. In bonis actibus hominum justorum duplex valor five pretium assignari potest meriti videlicet satisfactionis Opus bonum qua parte meritorium est non potest alii applicari potest tamen qua satisfactorium Extat in Ecclesia thesaurus satisfactionum Christi superfluentium ad quem pertinent etiam passiones Beatae Mariae Virginis omnium aliorum Sanctorum qui plus passi sunt quam eorum peccata requirerent Satisfactiones Christo Sanciis supervacaneae applicari possunt aliis qui rei sunt luendae paenae temporalis Ibid. c. 3. Ecclesiae pastoribus auctoritas divinitus concessa est thesaurum satisfactionum dispensandi ac per hanc indulgentias concedendi Praelati Ecclesiae dispensare possunt Christi passionem tum per Sacramenta tum per Indulgentias passiones vero Sanctorum nonnisi per Indulgentias G. Pray give me leave to English it to my thinking the Doctrin is pleasant you shall see how well I relish it that is to say That the good Works of just men have a twofold value one side of them is meritorious and the other satisfactory this last may be given to others but the first may not and that in the Church there is a treasure of the superfluous satisfactions of Christ of the Blessed Virgin and all other Saints who suffered more than in justice they ought Which treasure is disposed of by the Pastors of the Church according to that authority as God hath given them to those who are guilty of temporal pains and that with a great deal of Art and Industry for the Passion of Christ is given by the Sacraments and Indulgences but the Passions of the Saints by Indulgences only I protest you are witty folks to devise such pretty things as these no wonder if you will not be tied to the written Word when you are so good at inventing Honest Novator were I minded only to point out all the Impertinences included in this Doctrin it would confute
mediata per populum aut ordines regni vel Senatum civitatis at si istud non succedat qui est status necessitatis potest per se immediate procedere dando illius regnum alteri Orthodoxo principi vel primo victori Orthodoxo illud assignando ut Stephanus Papa transtulit imperium à Graecis ad Germanos Innocentius quartus interdixit regni administrationem Regi Portugaliae fratrem ejus substituens c. So likewise Cardinal Bellarmine doth teach That though the Pope as Pope may not usually yet that as Supreme Spiritual Prince he may for the good of souls dispose of Kingdoms as he thinks good take them away from one and give them to another Non potest Papa ut Papa ordinarie c. tamen potest mutare regna uni auferre atque alteri conferre tanquam summus Princeps Spiritualis si id necessarium sit ad animarum salutem For you must know That in the Church the Ecclesiastick and the Civil Power are as in Man the Spirit and the Flesh and that Kingdoms and Governments are not immediately of God but of Men whereas the Power of the Bishop of Rome comes immediately from God Bell. de Rom. Pont. l. 5. c. 6. Vt se habent in homine spiritus caro sic se habent in Ecclesia potestas politica Ecclesiastica regna non sunt immediate à Deo instituta sed ab hominibus Pontificatus autem à Deo immediate est institutus And so The Pope hath power to dispose of all temporal things belonging to all Christians in general Pontifex Romanus in ordine ad bonum spirituale habet summam potestatem disponendi de temporalibus rebus omnium Christianorum And according to that unlimited Power in the Head the Body of the Clergy enjoys great Priviledges They are above or at least equal to King and Princes and therefore not bound to obey them neither by Divine nor Humane right Ibid. Respectu clericorum non sunt principes superiores potestates ac proinde non tenentur clerici principibus parere neque jure divino neque humano nisi quantum ad leges quasdam directivas i. e. non obligatione eoactiva And so The Goods and Estates of Clergy-men as well Temporal as Ecclesiastick are and ought to be free from Taxes and all duties to Princes and they themselves ought not to be judged by any Civil Magistrate although they do not observe Civil Laws Bell. de Clericis L. 1. c. 28. Non possunt Clerici à judice saeculari judicari etiamsi leges civiles non servent Bona clericorum tam Ecclesiastica quam saecularia libera sunt ac merito esse debent à tributis principum saecularium G. Yes I see your Pope is a petty God upon Earth his Power is not to be controul'd and whatever he doth his Almightiness and Infallibility will bear him out and make the thing good and just though it seem never so much otherwise But sure in this he is none of Christs Vicar the meek and humble JESVS would not so much as divide the Inheritance betwixt two Brethren much less dispose of whole Kingdoms he paid tribute to Caesar and acknowledged his Authority to be from above and we read no where that ever he gave any such power to his Apostles or their Successors as the Pope pretends to He told them indeed that they should be brought and condemned before the Tribunals of Kings and Princes but did no where tell them that ever Kings and Princes should be brought before their Pontifical Chairs to be judged and punished by them We read but of one that ever pretended to have the power of disposing of the Kingdoms of the World he that said All these things will I give thee Mat. 4.9 And except the Head of your Church will acknowledge himself to be his Surrogate he had best shew us how he came by the same Power But this Doctrine is so contrary to the example and Religion of our Lord Jesus Christ that it will be its own antidote you your selves are ashamed to own it openly and when it is known it is confuted P. I see we shall never agree as to particulars as long as you believe to have the Scripture on your side you 'll never yield to the Authority of our Church which you don't think to be infallible But in general by your own Confession ours is the best and the safest Church for you yield that a man may be sav'd in it whereas we utterly deny the same priviledge to yours Stapl. contr 3. quaest 9. 10. the Communion of the Church of Rome being absolutely necessary to the Salvation of all men Romanae Ecclesiae Communio omnibus est ad salutem necessaria You also grant that the Bishop of Rome is St. Peters Successor which is a great point And I believe you won't deny but that there is Miracles wrought in our Church which are unanswerable Arguments of the truth of its Doctrine These three are substantial points and will abundantly outweigh all the petty Objections you can bring against some parts of our Religion Pray consider of them at your leisure G. To my thinking they require no great consideration and there is no such weight in them as you fancy though you make great use of such woodden Arguments to seduce the simple yet to those that have but an ordinary competency of knowledge they seem very insignificant The first is comon to you with our Fanaticks they all confine Salvation every one to his own Sect and you and they together take advantage of our charity in that we don't exclude you out of Heaven you believe that you only shall come in it But Mr. Novator don't you trust to our charitable Opinions we may be mistaken for we pretend to no infallibility There was two Barques putting out to Sea both of them bound for Jerusalem one was rotten leaky and much out of order but the Master of it was a bold Man and of an imposing Spirit he would perswade the people that it was St. Peters own Barque that it was imposing Spirit he would perswade the people that it was St. Peters own Barque that it was impossible it should sink and that all as many as would not come into it should certainly be drown'd and never come to the Holy Land The other Barque was sound and strong and well fitted for the Voyage the Passengers therein would tell those in the leaky one of their great danger and exhort them to stop the holes and put things in better order though they did not despair but that some of them might swim to shore upon some pieces of the Barque Now do you think this mans confidence would hold his sinking Ship upon the Water or that the compassionates hopes and wishes of the others would make their own sink Certainly uncharitableness is a very unfit mark to know Christianity and the true Church by But let me tell
it by force though you ventured very fair for it but there are three or four things in what you said that must not be confounded And first That not only your Ministers but even your People also are not subject to the Laws of the Civil Magistrate except they approve of them which is as much as not at all will too manifestly appear by those famous or rather infamous Books of Rutherford and Prynne The falshood of M. Prynns Truths Triumph 1645. p. 30. p. 25. Lex Rex and The Sovereignty of Parliament Moreover we have it in plain terms That the general Assembly is subordinate to no Civil Judicature whatsoever in a Book called The readiness of the Scots advance into England And Mr. Dury told the Parliament in a Sermon Settle but the Judicatories of particular Congregations and let the Thrones of the whole House of David be crected and you shall find that the fruit of righteousness c. Isai 32.17 as much as to say Inthronize a Pope in every Parish and all will be well But secondly you are so far from being subject to the Laws of Princes that you will have them to be subject to yours This was one of the Propositions presented to the Assembly at Edinburgh Art 8. 1647. None that is within the Church ought to be without the reach of the Church Laws and excepted from Ecclesiastical censures but Discipline is to be exercised on all the members of the Church without respect or consideration of those adhering qualities which use to commend a man to other men All the Power the Pope claims over secular Princes is included in this one Article When once the Kirk hath decreed that any thing is Antichristian and must down or that some new device is according to the Pattern in the Mount and therefore must be establisht if the Magistrate dares to oppose it then cries the petty Pope Help ye the Lord against the Mighty as S. Marshall in a Sermon S. Marshal 1641. Curse ye Meroz for not helping the Lord against the Mighty Some Politicians saith he pag. 2. look which side shall prevail and stand Neuter but as Gideon said to the men of Succoth when they refused to give bread to the people Judg. 8.7 then will I tear your flesh with the thorns of the wilderness so I say to such if the Lord prevail he will do them Is it so indeed that they are cursed that help not the Lord against the Mighty Then Brethren as you desire to be freed from this curse and to obtain a blessing be exhorted to put forth your hand now to the help of the Lord. I pray look on me as one that comes among you this day to beat a Drum in your ears to see who will come out to follow the Lamb. Here was a Press-Master for the Synod Now here what Th. Tho. Good 1645. Goodwin said to the Parliament how that the Saints i. e. the Assembly and their Adherents must not be crost in their humour under pain of utter ruine after a long canting to shew that the greatest and highest Interest of Kings and Kingdoms on which their welfare or their ruine depends was the dealing well or ill with the Saints he gives these reasons for it 1. Their nearness and dearness to God 2. p. 40. The interest of the Saints in God the Governour and the priviledges which they themselves have vouchsafed them by God in ruling and governing this World p 42. and Providences of God therein And 3. the interest of Jesus Christ himself whose design and practise is and hath been to break all Kingdoms that do oppose him and oppress his Saints Here 's the Dickins and all I think for Papal Power But you must understand that all this was proved out of his Text Psal 105.14 He suffered no man to do them wrong yea he reproved Kings for their sakes Now Sir that your most Godly Party would make a pretty good title to the Goods of the wicked if they were in power Th. Palmer endeavour'd to clear when in the 15 and 16 pag. of his Sermon he made it his business to prove that wicked men who are out of Christ i. e. out of their favour have no proper right to the Creatures neither to the Sacraments and Ordinances nor to those Creatures that sustain life And then saith he pag. 17. when the Riches and Honours and Liberty given to the Saints and Gospel-times so long promised shall come then the wicked miseries of the wicked begin then shall their time of sorrow and sadness come in whereby he intimates that should once the Saints come to reign the Wicked would go near to be dealt with as Usurpers of what they possess as indeed many of them were when the Saints had power to plunder and sequester As for your absolving from Oaths I had rather charitably believe that you can do that too than judge you guilty of perjury for either of the two must be because many of your Ministers acted contrary to what they had sworn when they receiv'd Ordination or Institution from the Bishop that you won't deny And again they acted contrary to their Oath of Allegiance and made their people do so too and take an Oath contradictory to that your holy Covenant for though you pretended that it was to make the King happy and glorious yet 't was against your Allegiance being it was against his will and just Authority and besides that goodly pretence it self was an affronting his Majesty for you would make him to destroy the Church which by his Oath at least he was bound to preserve and maintain and you would have wrested his Regal Power out of his hand and left him only his Scepter to countenance you This is called Protestatio contraria facto when a man cuts anothers purse and swears that he doth him no wrong but whether you cut or untied the knot whereby you were bound to act otherwise than you did I leave it to your choice Pr. By and by I shall shew that your Citations signifie nothing but supposing they did yet that cannot prove what you intend them for because the Quarrel betwixt the King and the Parliament and the War that ensued thereon was upon a Civil account and if the people were in the wrong it was the Lawyers that mis-led them and not we But how many Holy Wars hath the Pope raised against Kings and Emperours meerly to establish or maintain that supreme Authority he claims over them This alone doth overthrow all you have said of your Papal Power Pa. Nay if you must have more proofs I 'll warrant you I can give you enough and therefore to confirm what I have said of your claiming a Pope-like Power I shall make it appear that it was you mis-led the people and made them rebel and that your War was a Holy War upon the account of Religion Mr. Leech tells his Auditors in a Sermon pag. Jer. Leech
men Pa. I know that one of your Brethren an ancient Sophister in his last scribbling against Doctor Durell speaks as if there was hardly any difference betwixt you and the Church of England Bonasius Vapul 1672. p. 80. It may be worth saith he the consideration of those who are in Authority whether they may not enjoy Ecclesiastical Preferments who differ from their Brethren only in some few points of Discipline for as to the Essentials of Discipline I am not so quick-sighted as to find that we disagree c. But if it be so the more wicked you who have made crimes and enormities of a few indifferent points of Discipline What was it the tenderness of your Consciences that made a few Ceremonies to be Popery and Antichristianism so that upon their account you must call upon the people in Sion to war against Babylon Either you are the greatest Cheats in the World or else you differ from your Church at least in those points wherein as I have shewn you come so near to us chuse you which you please As for your loving and honouring the reformed Churches beyond Sea and the first Reformators of this I find no such thing in your Books but rather that you lov'd and honour'd your selves far beyond them all Mr. Dury in his Sermon to the Parliament upon these words Depart ye c. Isai 52.11 p. 5. is pretty plain in it I chose these words saith he because the destruction of Babylon and the deliverance of the Church out of it is the great work which God intends to accomplish by the Gospel in these latter times and because of the relation wherein we do stand to it for I conceive that God is not only working out our deliverance to bring us out of Babylon at this time c. Where could you have been worse than in Babylon before the good men in King Edward the sixth's time had done any thing towards a Reformation So you may hear him say at the 25 pag. None of all the Magistrates or Ministers of other Nations have ever given such an answer to this Call to come out of Babylon as you and we of the Ministry and this people have done for we have undertaken the Cause in the full extent thereof therefore we are in this employment nearer unto God than any others and he is more interest in us and in Scotland than in any other Nation whatsoever Two Witnesses more I hope will make the thing credible Mr. Boden in his Sermon Revel 18.6 Reward her as p. 9. c. saith 'T is no wonder that our forefathers did little or nothing against the Beast and the Babylonians for their eyes were blinded they could not see to work much less to fight but that we having clear visions and full discoveries made of the Beast and her abominations should sit still and be careless and suffer her for ever to play her beastly pranks is a most deadly shame and stain unto us And Mr. Tho. Goodwin in his foresaid Sermon Others had had the honour in the first Age of reforming p. 52. and we had been like blear-eyed Leah yet since we have been abundantly the more fruitful of Saints faithful and chosen And indeed the truth is you went so far beyond all other Reformers that you might well despise them as having done their work very imperfectly to what you did Pr. I took you to be but a Priest but I doubt you are a Jesuite too for you can turn other mens words to what sense you please I believe those good men meant no such thing as the interpretation you give to their words But whether they did or no 't is nothing to us we pin our faith upon no mans sleeve if they have said or done any thing amiss we utterly disclaim it We own the Kings Supreme Authority and we own the Doctrine of the Church of England and to prove the contrary by particular mens words as you have endeavoured to do is altogether lost labour because their Opinions is not the Rule we follow So that all your Quotations evince nothing of what you intended and you well deserve to be laugh'd at for having taken such a huge deal of bootless pains in repeating other mens words Pa. Very well 't is but making up your mouth and wiping of it and looking very demure and then you have done nothing and so you think you can abuse the world everlastingly But stay Sir dear-bought experience hath taught us that your goodly words are little to be trusted and you have approved your selves such incomparable Jugglers that we will see what you tell us before we believe it In the highest of your Rebellion you were for the King forsooth much more now he reigns Th. Palmer was Minister of the Army raised for King and Parliament as he stiles himself in the Title of his Sermon 1644. Mr. Peech at the Siege of Basing was fighting for the King pag. 24. We honour the King we fight for him we resolve though it cost us our lives we will have his love and his presence again And John Arrowsmith before the House of Commons calls him his Dear Sovereign 1643. p. 13. They saith he that brought our King into this Civil War are a Generation of scornful men that laugh at our Builders as Sanballat and his Complices did at Nehemiah What is this thing as ye do will ye rebel against the King a Generation which can neither find in their hearts to afford a good word of advice to our Dread and Dear Sovereign c. But 't is more than probable that by a worse than Jesuitical Equivocation you meant only a notional King the workmanship of your deceitful Brains for so we find a cunning distinction between the King and the Kings Person Tho. Case in his Sermon to the Court-Martial on 2 Chron. 29.6 7. And Jehoshaphat said unto the Judges Take heed what ye do c Tell them That though they had not a Jehoshaphat to give them that charge in his personal capacity yet they had him in his political capacity So Robert Austin D. D. printed a Book intending to prove 1644. That by the Oath of Allegiance the Parliament was bound to take up Arms though against the Kings personal command for the just defence of the Kings Person Crown and Dignity So you might be sure by such means ever to be for him and have him of your side whatever you did for so Mr. Burroughs prov'd by the same art pag. 27. That his most Loyal Party was not fighting against the King but for the King for the preservation of true Regal Power in the King and his Posterity and to rescue him from the hands of evil men who were his greatest Enemies And he said pag. 57. That the Saints and most Religious had ventured their Lives Fortunes Children and all for the safety of the King One would have taken him then for a great Royalist but
Kingdom was filled with bloud and confusion that the people might not see how they were gull'd you fell to prophecying promising them much happiness with many secret and glorious things after all their trouble so saith the same Author ibid. pag. 6. We shall see at last that the mercy God intended for us was worth all the troubles and bloud c. God hath many Promises to his Church to accomplish many Prophecies to fulfil many glorious things to declare many Mercies for his Saints to bestow and these stirs among us will make way for all And so Mr. Joh. Bond 1644. Bond tells the Parliament That the present work of Salvation and Reformation they had in hand was carried on in a mystery was a shadowed master-piece altogether made up of stratagems paradoxes and wonders and so the comfort is it shall be a great Salvation a Salvation from Babylon But this will suffice at present to shew that the people was deluded more ways than one and to give a warning to the following Generation that so they never be drawn into Rebellion by the same arts and pretences as their Fathers were It would be endless to rehearse all the equivocations jugglings and deceits as were used to seduce the people next time we meet perchance you shall hear more of them What I have said now is enough to prove that your words signifie nothing but what you please that your dissimulations are deep and specious and that you never want arts and evasions to plead innocency and salve your credit after the foulest doings and miscarriages Now you differ but a very little from the Church of England and you are for Obedience to the King whatever some of you may have said or done heretofore Very good That 's as much as to say That do you what you will you are resolved ever to be in the right and never to acknowledge your selves faulty in the least for fear of losing the repute of Infallibility But let it be considered 1. That I have proved what I charged upon you not by the words of the obscure and ordinary but of the most famous men of your Party who must needs have known the Tenets and Doctrines of your Sect and who were then and are still now cryed up and followed by your Disciples and Admirers 2. That those words of theirs I have cited were not taken out of Libels or prophane Books nor were spoken heedlesly in the heat of dispute but are to be found in their Sermons and were delivered out of their Pulpits in the powerfulness of Preaching as being the Word of God 3. That those Sermons were not preached in Country-Towns or to ordinary Congregations where any stuff preached after the tone and manner in use among you had been as good as the best but almost all of them before the Parliament where none but great men were admitted to preach and where to be sure they preached none but their best Sermons and moreover that those Sermons were printed with the names of the Authors and with License and Approbation 4. That 't is more likely they would then deliver their true Opinions and speak out what was in their hearts when they had the power in their hands and were free to speak what they pleased than now they are under fear and restraint and are fain to conceal or dissemble what they would then openly preach and proclaim 5. That they not only preached Sermons but they and their Disciples lived Sermons also your practice and Doctrine agreed excellently well what was preach'd was acted there was none of their good Instructions lost you approved what they said by doing accordingly and you generally own'd by a practical belief those Doctrines I have set down as yours out of your most approved Authors Lastly It is manifest by my Quotations that your Ministers rendred the last King odious to his people and preacht him out of his Throne and Kingdom but 't is no where to be seen that they ever preach'd this King into the favour of his people again or used their powerful eloquence to have him restor'd to his Right And since his return though you have given over printing yet most of you have kept up the Faction and in stead of crying peccavi have still endeavour'd to weaken the Church and draw Disciples after you and your Synods have never disclaimed those men who by their Preaching had kindled up the late Rebellion and the Preachers have never recanted their former Opinions but either justified or disguised them nay many of them own still the Obligation of that infamous Oath call'd the Covenant whereby they acted and warranted all their wickedness Therefore though the people may be excused having been deluded and imposed upon yet you the Ministers and Heads of the Faction can never with all the wit you have plead any thing that can justifie you from owning the worst of Popish Errours Now let our Judge speak if he pleaseth G. I confess I am somewhat amazed at what I have heard I never thought so much could be said for proving a Conformity betwixt Papists and Presbyterians in so many points but yet I will decide nothing nor make any reflections upon what you have said I 'll rather transcribe and print your discourse and leave the Reader to think and to judge as his own discretion shall advise him Only seeing that you are most chiefly agreed in denying the King that Supreme Authority which God hath given him and pretending a certain Power and Jurisdiction over him in ordine ad spiritualia for the good of souls or to phrase it aright for to advance Gods Cause and to set up Christ I shall set down some Texts of Scripture which plainly evince the contrary and then desire all Christians to yield a chearful and loyal Obedience until they have been told from Heaven that the Pope or Classis are impowered from God to act contrary to his Word in this particular First For the Authority of the Supreme Magistrate over all that live in his Dominions read Rom. 13.1 and 2. Let every soul be subject to the higher powers for there is no power but of God the powers that be are ordained of God whosoever therefore resisteth the power resisteth the ordinance of God and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation v. 5. Wherefore ye must be subject not only for wrath but also for conscience sake Here you see that neither Pope nor Puritan is excepted but every soul is to be subject this was written when the Higher Powers were Heathen bloudy Persecutors of Christianity who endeavoured to destroy the Gospel and yet for all that they must not be rebelled against and their Authority must not be resisted Whosoever resisteth the power resisteth the Ordinance of God and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation and therefore we must be subject to them not only for fear of their anger but also for fear of Gods not only for wrath