practise a kingdome that either of them disposed all at their owne will Only they were over the people in going before them with good and holesome countails not that they alone did what pleased them excluding all the rest And presently hee sheweth they did no more but crave the voyces moderate the people in chosing And affirmeth that this is Commune ius libertas Ecclesiae the common right and libertie of the Church and that not to bee diminished And in another place hee saith “ Cap. 5.2 Etiamsi nihil aliud mali foret quitamen hoe excusare poterunt quod it a spoliaverint suo iure Ecclesiam Although there were no other evill yet how can they excuse this that they have so spoiled the Church of her right And †Sect. 3. Est impia Ecclesiae spoliatio c. It is a wicked robbing or spoyling of the Church so often as a Bishop is put vppon any people whom they have not desired or at least have not approoved with a free voyce And It it is a ly that they say this is a remedy against the peoples tumultes They had other wayes Eyther to prevent these faultes or to correct them being committed But to say the truth when the people began to be somewhat too negligeÌ„t in holding their Elections did give ouer this care to the Presbyters as a thing not so beseeming theÌ„ selves they the Pres byters abused this occasion to take to theÌ„ selves a tyrannie which afterward they coÌ„firmed with Canons And vpon the Acts thus hee writeth “ In Act. 3. â— Est tyranicum c. It is tyrannicall if any one man make Ministers at his will Therefore this is the lawfull way that they be chosen by common voyâ—â—â— who are to exercise any publike office in the Church And this is the meane betweene tyranâ—â—e and confused libertie that nothing in deed may bee done without the consent and allowance of the people and yet the Pastors should moderate them c. Likewise rouching Ecclesiastical censure and iudgement in generall saith he †Instit 4.11.6 Contra ius fas quod Ecclesiae datum erat sibi vni vendicavit Episcopus The Bishop against right and equitie hath taken to him selfe alone that which was given to the Church And Fuit facinus aimis improbum c. It was to wicked a fact that one man in translating to him selfe the Common power made way for tyrannous lust and tooke away that which was the Churches owâ—e and suppressed the Eldership ordayned by the Spirit of Christ A game Animadvertendum quod Paulus quam vis Apostolus forei non pro sua libidine excommunicavit solus sed consilium cum Ecclesia participat vt communi authoritate res agat ur It is to be marked that Paul though an Apostle yet he did not excommuni are alone after his owne will but did participat the matter with the Church that it might bee doâ—â— by common authorttie Thus plainly doth Calvin maintaine the peoples free consent in the Church governement alwayes To these we will adde Maister Viret 3. Viret a rare light of the Gospell a pillar of the truth and partner with Maist Farell in planting the Church of Geneva before Calvin came there “ Dialog 20. The Church saieth hee in respect of the gouernement which Iesus Christ instituted is a holy and free communaltie which for the same cause is called a Communion of Saints to the which generally and not to any one person particularly Iesus Christ gave the whole power authoritie to edification and not to destructioÌ„ Quest But if you so take it there seemeth to me no order at all but rather great coÌ„fusion Answer That followeth not from that which I said For first the Church is not Headles having Iesus Christ for a Head Moreover although the power and authoritie be given to the whole Communaltie of the faithfull as it is in a Democratie yet nothing letteth but the Church should choose by her common consent out of the body of this Communitie certain men to have the speciall charge of exercising and administring the publike offices which are ordayned of God c. Question Your meaning then is that all the authoritie and power of Ecclesiasticall governement generally is given to the whole church and therefore that it pertaineth to the same according to Gods word to choose them whom shee knoweth most worthie to exercise the publike Offices c. Answer All that time wherein the Church was rightly governed according to Gods word and not oppressed with tyrannie she vsed that order alwayes And therefore it is more then necessary that shee should alwayes keepe her right her power authoritie which she receyved of God c. Question And if they which execute speciall charge in the Church do tollerate one another in ill doing them selves do give matter of scaÌ„dall scattering hath not theÌ„ the whole Church togeather power to correct them and to procure remedit to such evills Answer Seeing the power whereof we speake is by Christ Iesus given to the whole church who can take it from theÌ„ Can they to whoÌ„ the church it self hath given it No truly vnles they be tyrants c. And againe “ Dialog 21. The Ministers ought not to give to theÌ„ selves alone the power which God gave to the whole church vnles so as they execute their Office in the Name of the church and after that her iudgement hath gone before This is well to be noted that iniurie bee done to none that the Minister exercise not tyrannie in the Church and that the governement serve not their affections Thus plainly Maister Viret From these let vs ascend to the verie first Worthies who have brought vs the light of the Gospell in this latter age Zuinglius and Luther Zuinglius saith thus “ Zuinglius Aruc 31. Explanat Quid audio What do I heare Can a Bishop alone excommunicate I thought it had ben given to the Church Christ saith Tell the Church Doth the Bishop or Abbot signifie the Church Excommunication is not one mans part whosoever it be but it is thâ— office of the Church None therefore can excommunicate but that Church in whâ— a 〈◊〉 dwelleth who offendeth by his sinne The right of pronouncing against him is in tâ—e Church and the Pastor of the Church It remayneth then that Christ commaundeâ—h that the sinner be shewed to the Church which weâ— call a Parish In another place likewise “ Ad Valentiuâ—m Compa 〈◊〉 Excommunicatio non in Episeoporum in Synodo Congregatorum sed in vntuscutusque paroeciae potestate arbitrio sita est euâ—us◠〈◊〉 est impudentius peccantem ab Ecclesiae communione excludere Sâ— Christs veroa quae Math. 18. habentur penitùs inspiciamus hune demum excÌ„municatum esse deprehendere licebit quem communis Ecclesiae in qua quis habitat consâ—nsus exclusit Excommunication is not in the Bishops gathered together
people of every Church alwayes ought to have by Christes and the Apostles ordinaÌ„ce as “ Pag. 19. chap. 3.4.5 before we have seene Nay to come nearer No proper and perfect Diocesan Church or larger ever did or doth admit the peoples free consent in their ordinarie governement Vniversally and alwayes it is so indeed it can not be otherwise For where each ordinarie Congregation hath their free consent in their ordinarie governement there certainly each Congregation is an intire and independent Body politike Spirituall and is indued with power in it selfe immediatly vnder Christ And so every of them are true proper Churches So that these Congregations admit not where they are any proper Diocesan Church or larger neither doth the proper Diocesan Church or larger admit intire and independent ordinary CoÌ„gregations Which as I said have their free consent in their ordinary governement They are indeed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 such as “ Reas. for 〈◊〉 form pag. 23.25 cannot stand together possibly And therfore it is likewise that which heretofore †Ibid pag. 8â— I have affirmed and so do still in the Newe Testament there is not any Diocesan Church or larger to be found Which point though I have in my Declaration proved it by this and 6. other reasons yet I will heere draw it into this Syllogisme againe No Church holding the peoples free consent in their ordinary governement with iust and decent order is Diocesan or larger Every Visible Church in the New Testament holdeth the peoples free consent in their ordinary governement with iust and decent order Therfore No Visible Church in the New Testament is Diocesan or larger The first proposition is manifest of it selfe and I have shewed it more “ Pag. 84 8â— 86. c. fully before The Assumption or 2. proposition is at large proved confirmed in those places which are noted in the margin before viz. pag. 19. and are mentioned againe particularly pag. 76. To which purpose also the whole 3.4 5. chap. do helpe Where I am to adde moreover that this Conclusion is true not only in the New Testament but also in the ages following a long while after That is no such Diocesan churches were fouÌ„d till 420. yeres after Christ yea til 680. and more were past Which I shewed before in the end of the fift Chap. as also I touched it in my Declaration pag. 24.25 But let it be remembred that heere I speake precisely of proper Diocesan Churches and larger There is therefore necessarily a distinction to be made of Diocesan Churches There are proper Diocesan Churches and larger there are improper The proper Diocesan Church and larger is where the people have no power freely to consent in the affaires of their ordinarie Church governement The improper Diocesan Church and larger is where although there be a kinde of Diocesan or larger Consociation of many ordinarie CoÌ„gregations in Spirituall governement vnder one generall Presidencie or Superioritie yet the ordinarie Congregations have their free consent at least they have nothing by their Spirituall Governors imposed on them against their wills Which kinde of Dioces church being duly ordered wee do not gainsay There are hereof also two kinds The one is “ Act. 15.2.3.6.7 Apostolicall viz. where many ordinarie Congregations consociating togeather in their spirituall governement have a Diocesan or larger Synod or Presbyterie over them for their better direction Such the forraigne reformed Churches at this day do enioy The other kinde is where many ordinary Congregations so consociating togeather have one person a constant President during life over them whom men after the Apostles called a Diocesan Bishop some a Metropolitan and such like other names Albeit of these there were without question divers kindes and sortes some exercising greater power and authoritie some lesse that is the ancienter had lesse the later for the most part alwayes had their power greater and greater Ad â—vagr in Tit. 1. For of these Ierome saith most truly both that their Matoritie over the Presbyters of Congregations was by Humane ordinaÌ„ce and also that it came in grew greater paâ—latim by litle and litle that is by degrees Albeit I say therefore that these Diocesan Bishops were of divers kindes sortes yet the first of them neither were in the Apostles times neither were they immediatly after the Apostles Contrariwise D. Downame affirmeth that Marke the Evangelist ordained in Alexandria a Diocesan church coÌ„sisting of many ordinarie Congregations Which he thinketh to prove by some words of “ Euseb 2.15 Eusebius who saith Marke first †D. Downâ— Def. 2.124 constituted churches 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in Alexandria it selfe as he falsly translateth it I say this he falsly translateth as “ 3.137 3.25.16 Doct. Dovâ— also did before him wherevpon the whole grouÌ„d of their error doth rest Def pag. 17 â—â— Which their falsificatioÌ„ I shall by Gods helpe shew plainly out of Eusebius him self even in this very place The preposition 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth not heere signifie in a place as they vntruly imagine but it signifyeth to a place and so it ought to be translated In Latin we should say ad Alexandriaâ— ipsam or vsque ad that is to Alexandria or vnto Alexandria it selfe This is Eusebius true meaning For he would shew that Marke was the first that constituted Churches in the country of Egypt and withall that hee did so even vnto the chiefe City thereof viz. Alexandria And this is all that hee meaneth heere Twice in this very place besides Eusebius vseth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in this same construction and sense Both immediatly before the wordes in question and immediatly after Before thus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to Egypt or vnto Egypt After thus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to Rome or vnto Rome not in Rome nor in Egypt Wherefore so 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifyeth likewise in this place which we have in hand seing it runneth in one coÌ„text together with the former and is all one manner of phrase Besides Eusebius straight after alleaging Philo concerning this same people whom Marke converted saith that he spake 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of the Churches about in the Countrey and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 about Alexandria not in Alexandria Last of all Eusebius vttereth this as he doth the next foregoing clause likewise with this terme 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 they say or some report By which and the like termes he vseth to relate vncertain and apocryphall things yea sometimes fabulous and vntrue For Eusebius is not precise in setting down all his matters chiefly those which he hath only vpon rumour and report And where hee seemeth to require credit in deed hee is not sparing to name his authors as Egesippus Clemens Dionysius and such other Wherefore divers wayes D. Downames presumptuous assertion and which he doth so boast of that Marke instituted many Churches in AlexaÌ„dria waÌ„teth
in a Synod but it is in the power and free liking of every Parish who only have power to exclude from the Churches communion the impudent sinner If wee looke thoroughly into the wordeâ— which are in Math 18. we may finde him only to be excommunicate whom the common consent of that Church where the man dwelleth hath shut out Againe “ Epichirifis de Ganone Missae Est particularis Ecclesia ea cuâ— preceptum est vt morbidum membrum resecet Math. 18. quales ea Corinthi ad quam seribit Paulus aliae quarum se curam gereâ—â—dicat quibus se pari modo docere asserit â—nquiens Sollicitudo omnium EcclesiaruÌ„ sicut 〈◊〉 omnibus Ecclesijs doceo That is a parti ulat Church which is commanded to cut of the infected member Math. 18. Chap. â— Such as that of Corinth is to which Paul writeth and others which he saith be hath care of and in which he affirmeth that he taught altogeather alike saying The care of all Churches and As I teach in all Churches And concerning Calling to the Ministerie he saith * Ecclesiaste◠†It seemeth that there is nothing so agreeable to the ordinance of God and to the old institution as that all the whole Church of the faithfull amongst a people togeather with certain learned and godly Bishops and other faithfull men having skill in things should choose a Pastor And after againe Let therfore these proud Bishops and foolish Abbots goe shake their â—ares For it is convenient that the right of the Election should be in the power of the church of the faithfull instructed by the counsaill of learned meÌ„ Moreover he writeth thus “ Ad Valent Compar Hee that with a Councill of Bishops shall impose on Christian people any law or observatioÌ„ at their own liking he meaneth without the peoples coÌ„sent hic violento imperio ius Ecclesiae invadit Hee invadeth the Churches right by a violent command And therefore such Bishops as thus doe absque Ecclesia without the Churches consent statuentes suâ libidine Artic. 64. decreeing at their owne pleasure he saith are nomine tenus Episcopi reverà tyranni in name Bishops but in deed tyrants And thus much out of this holy man of God and noble witnes of Christ Maister Zuinglius Maister Luther another mightie and Luther principal champion for Gods truth at the same time wrote a special treatise which hath this title * Tom. 2. pag. 374. Quod Ecclesia â—us potestatem habeat indicandi de quavis doctrinâ item vocandi Ministros Evangelij aut si fideles esse desierint deponendi That the “ In this word he signifieth the CongregatioÌ„ of the people Church hath the right power to iudge of any doctrine also of calling the Ministers of the Gospell or if they cease to be faithfull to depose them What can be more for vs then this is In another place he saith “ Pag. 369. b. Chemnic examp part 2.27 a. Claves sunt totius Ecclesia The Keyes belong to the whole Church In his booke of the Privat Masse hee speaketh to the Bishops of his time thus Spiritus Sanctus vui Civitats plures constituit Episcopos Vos singuli estis pluribus Quâ authoritate Nonne ipsius Satanae c The holy Ghost appointed to one City many Bishops but you are one Bishop to many Cities By what authoritie Is it not of Sathan him selfe by you opposing against the authoritie of the Holy Ghost We conclude therfore boldly that you according to the Scriptures the H Ghosts decree are not so much as to be called Bishops but rather adversaries and destroyers both of Bishops and of the Divine decree concerning the appointing of Bishops Againe in his booke against the falsly named Order of Bishops hee saith †pag. 322. At citra iocum vides palam c. But without iest thou seest openly that the Apostle Paul calleth only them Bishops which do preach the Gospell and Minister Sacraments to the people as in our time the parish Ministers and Preachers do Therefore I beleeve without doubt that they by fight possesse the title and name of Bishops And in another treatise “ De Ministâ— Eccles instituendâ— pag. 365. b. Donabo hoc ordmibus Papisticis quod solius Episcopi autoritate instituuntur quos vocant Sacerdotes consensu aut suffragio populi cui preficiendi sunt neque requisito nec obtento cuius tamen cum sint populus Dei maximè intererat vt non sine suffragijs suis quisquaÌ„ eis imponeretur I will yield this saith he to the popish orders that Priestes as they call them are instituted by the authoritie of the Bishop alone the câ—nsent and voyce giving of the people over whoÌ„ they are to bee set neither sought nor obtâ—yned whose chiefe right nevertheles it was seeing they are Gods people that not any one should be set over them without their voyce-giving Thus teach these Pillars of the Gospell Zuinglius and Luther To whom wee will ad our two great lightes that shined sometyme in England Maister Bucer and P. Martyr Bucer Bucer hath these wordes †In Math 16. â—9 Haec potestas penes omnem Ecclesiam est authoritas modo Ministerij penes Presbyteros Episcopos Ita vt Roma olim potestas populs fuit authoritas Senatus This power sway of the governement is in the whole Church but the authoritie only of ministration therof is in the Presbyters and Bishops So as in old time at Rome the power was in the people but the authoritie or direction was in the Senat. In an other place he saith “ De regno Chrâ—â—â— 1. â— The Apostle accuseth the Corinthianâ— for that the whole church did not cast out of their company the incestuous person P. Martyr saith 7. P Martyr †In â— Cor. 16.15 Fatemur claves Ecclesia vniversae datas We confesse the Keyes are given to the whole Church By the Keyes he meaneth Governement and Ecclesiasticall power Also hee saith “ vers 3. it is no mervaile that it is the Churches right to chose Ministers seeing we see the Civill Lawes do give power to Townes to choose their Physicians and Scholemaisters at their owne liking In an other place thus he saith “ In cap. 5.11 Quoniam in Ecclesia de negotijs gravioribus quae sunt maximi momenti ad plebem â—efertur vt patet in Actis Apostolicis ideò politâ—ae rationem habet Because in the Church matters of waight are referred to the people to determine as it is manifest in the Acâ—es therefore the Church hath a respect of the Popular governement or Democracie For so P. Martyr heere meaneth by politia as wee may see if we look in the place Also namely of Excommunication hee saieth Consentiente vniversa Eccsesia Excommunicetur Hoc debet ist ad iudicium antecedere Let Excommunication be with the consent of
never ben possible For it had ben to smal purpose if they had oppugned those their other errors only withal had iustifyed the forme of the Roman Church and the calling of their Ministerie which our Forefathers must have done if our said Assertion had not ben true And so they must have taryed still ordinarie members vnder the governement of the same Church Againe to small purpose had they oppugned those other errors if they had left to obloquie their owne Ministerie Which likewise they must have done if our said Assertion were not true For as in warfare good weapons and much strength without iustifyable authoritie A Similitude will in short time bring ruine and confusion to them that vse the same Even so it is in this cause yea much more heere it is true Though wee seeme to cut down Popish errors with the sword of Gods word yet if wee do not cleere our Ministerie and iustifye our Calling give good satisfaction to mens Consciences for the lawfulnes of our handling the Word and Sacraments and Spirituall governement wee shall quickly labour in vaine And that appeareth certainly to much at this day in England the greater is our woe Not only in respect of Popery but in other respects also Well will our adversaries say The Protestantes Ministerie is iustifyed sufficiently against the Papistes albeit the people have no consent in their Ministers Calling Oh would God our learned men in Englande would shew this substantially Then would I for my part quickly conforme as before also I protested But otherwise let them bee assured the Church of Rome do what they can will get ground of them in England And this maketh mee to lay this to heart as I do Every day we are chalenged by the “ D. KellisoÌ„ Treatise of faith A. D. Iohn Fraser c. Papistes to proove the lawfulnes of our Ministerie in England and of our Calling to it What say our learned men heerevnto A direct and a full and a stedfast answer must be made to this Mens consciences will not be satisfyed with dilatorie and shifting answeres Nor if wee leave Scruples Difficulties in that we speake To iustify the Calling of our Ministerie in England and to prove the lawfulnes thereof The true iustification of the Protestants Ministerie wee must plainly shew that the persons who give this Calling with vs have good authoritie in deed to give the same This is the very point Let our learned men make this cleere and then the Papistes are stopped then all men are satisfyed For it is a plaine case and graunted of all that every true Ministerie in the Church must be receaved from some persons who have good and iust authoritie to give it And this is essentiall to every true Ministerie Some there are in Englande who affirme the Ministers authoritie is only an Inward Calling and gifts of the minde And so hath no absolut necessitie to be Outwardly receaved from any other Which in deed is not fit for any wise man or honest Christian to holde It is the worst answer of a thousand and in a word meerely Anabaptisticall Some others there are who say that this authoritie of the Ministerie and of exercising Excommunication also is derived originally from the Magistrate even from the King and Parliament with vs. And so they expound that ordinance of our Saviour “ Mat. 18.17 Tell the Church to be Tell the civil Magistrate Verily they may also as well expound these wordes †Mat. 86.18 Vpon this Rocke I will build my Church to signifie Vpon the Civill Magistrate vpon the Prince Christ buildeth his church For thus they make Christes Visible Church vnder the Gospell only a Civill Societie and a Humane politie Which profane opinion is so vnworthy of all true Christian people that it deserveth to bee exploded no lesse then the other These answers against the Papistes wee may thinke will do but litle good For as it is absolutly necessary that a true Minister of the Gospell have his calling given him outwardly from some persons and that these persons have good and iust authoritie to give it So likewise it is absolutly necessarie that every true Minister of the Gospell have his calling given him by those who are by Christ him selfe or his holy Spirit in the Apostles authorised to give it For thus only can an Ordinarie Ministers Calling be of God which is “ Ioh. 3.27 Heb. 5.4 Mat. 21.25 1. Cor 12.5 Rom. 10.15 necessarie and not of men And this is that which we call Essentiall in every Ordinarie Ecclesiasticall Minister Who are the persons that have power from Christ to make Ministers Againe as I said this will soundly answere the Papistes and nothing els But now all the matter will be who are the persons which have power authoritie from Christ to give a Calling to a Minister of the Gospell Heere as touching my selfe when I deale with Papistes as often I have don I affirme as D. Tilenus in this case answered the L. Lavall in France which “ Pag. 43. before I remembred viz. that the people consenting togeather in the truth of the Gospell have froÌ„ Christ power and authoritie first to forsake all Sacrilegious Priestes and their ministerie and then to give a true and lawfull calling of Ministerie to some whom them selves do like Wherein Tilenus shewed Cyprians iudgement also agreeing with his Cyprian there affirming likewise that this power of the people is from Divine authoritie as “ Pag. 56. 57. before also is shewed And other very plaine proofes heereof Act. 1.23.26 and 6.3.5.6 and 14.23 I have †Reas. for reform pag. 45. 46. 47. c. Divine beginning of Christs Visib Church Argum. 9. A DefinitioÌ„ generall twice set downe at large out of the New Testament Beside all which there is very pregnant reason also for the same For Christian people whether few or many ioyned togeather in a constant societie of one ordinarie Congregation to serve God according to his word are a true Visible Church of Christ Every true Visible Church of Christ is his Kingdome vpon earth his deare Spouse his owne Body c. Now it ought not to bee doubted but Christ hath given power to his Kingdome to his Spouse to his Body to governe it selfe to preserve it selfe to provide for it selfe when it wanteth all things ordayned for it in the best maner it can This may not bee doubted Therefore such a Societie vnder the Gospell wanting Ministers must have power to ordaine Ministers for her selfe Likewise the Apostle saieth All thinges are theirs and they Christes and Christ Gods Then 1. Cor. 3 2â—.23 wheÌ„ they want Ministers they cannot want power to provide them to them selves Seeing God hath made them theirs Further the Apostle requireth the christiaÌ„ people to try the Spirits of their Teachers whether they be of God or no. 1. Ioh. 4.1 And Christ saith His sheepe heare his voice a
cut off and excommunicate from the Church of Rome hee could not after that have any power as derived from them to make Ministers nor to do any other Bishoplie act Secondly wee all knowe the Church of Rome to be the very Antichrist chieflie in respect of their Clergie and Spirituall governement and most chieflie of all in respect of the Pope from whom all the rest as from the Head doe take their power and authoritie Now shall we say that very Antichrist can have power from Christ to make Ministers Or that we can have a lawfull Ministerie derived from those who had their power only from him It can not bee “ 2. Cor. 6.14 15. What communion hath light with darknes What concord hath Christ with Belial And so what hath Christ to do with Antichrist Nothing at all Thus then our consciences can have no assurance wee can not have confidence in such estate of the Ministerie But certainly Christs true Ministers among vs in Englande have a better Original thē this Wherefore this answere of our State Protestants must needes be false Yet in this answer who seeth not how the Papistes do reioyce triumph and insult Who seeth not how by this they are incouraged strengthened and multiplyed among vs exceedingly Truly it would pity a mans heart to beholde how this one point putteth life into thousandes to stande vp against Christes Gospell the libertie of their Country also For when they heare our selves openly to ascribe to the Church of Rome and to their meanes such a gift of grace even that which is our glory even the holy instrument of our faith to salvatiō for so is our Ministerie they will say if the branch be holy the root is more if the rivers be sweet the head-spring is delicious And so how can it bee chosen but the Papistes thus will bee graced and get great advātage among vs Many heere have another refuge but that also helpeth nothing Say they as Popish Baptisme is so far acknowledged by vs The last refuge of our Adversaries taken away as that with it only wee are held to bee sufficiently Baptised not to need Baptizing againe when we com from them to the Church of England So likewise wee may acknowledge the Popish Ordination to the Ministerie thus far and yet nevertheles cōdemne their Church and separate from them I answere the case is nothing like betweene Baptisme the signe of our initiation in Christ and the Calling to the Ministerie In the word there is expresse warrant for not repeating the signe of our initiation in Christ which of old was Circumcision and Baptisme now is the same though ministred by a false Ministerie and Church As wee may see in the “ 2. Chron. 30.11.18 35.17.18 Ez◠6.21 not Recircumcising of such Iewes as had receaved that signe in the Apostasie of Israell and turned frō thesame to the truth But there is no warrant at all in Gods word for any to retaine the outward Calling to the Ministerie or to stand in that power and authoritie which is derived from such a Church There is no such thing can be shewed in all Gods booke Therefore we may not conclude the like in this matter of Ordination to the Ministerie which may bee done for not repeating of Baptisme For by Gods worde Ordination may be repeated yea certainly after a Ministerie receaved in Christes true Church much more after it hath ben receaved in a false Church So that these two ordinances of Christ are nothing like in this point Wherefore out of question Ordination to the Ministerie as it is derived from Antichrist must be wholy reuounced of every faithfull man and may bee as is said renewed and repeated in Christes true Church as occasion serveth At Rome there is in it both an impiety and a nullitie In their administring of Baptisme there is not a nullitie altogeather as in that correspondent example of Israell in Apostasie before alleadged it well appeareth And this is sufficient for this though other answeres may be given also Wherefore this remayneth that when wee grant the descent of our Ministerie in Englande to come lineally from the Church and Pope of Rome which we must grant will wee nill we if wedeny it to arise essentially from the Christian peoples consent in each Congregation all the world seeth that we give the Pope a maine advantage against vs and we put into his hande a strong engine to draw vs back againe vnto him Which also he effecteth dayly vppon many among vs as woefull experience sheweth in our Land yea even vpon some of my very friends and neare acquaintance Beside this there is another point of the Churches governement The causing of Vnitie namely their Iurisdiction in cōpounding Schismes in making peace and vnitie and consent among Christian people which beeing ascribed as proper to Diocesan and Provinciall Bishops as they in England do say it is and as “ Def. 3.36 c. D. Downame with great vehemencie defendeth certainly true reason will cary it further it can not possibly stay there This wil serve a Popes turne a great deale better and to such a one it belongeth in deed as a very true and forcible ground for his Vniversall Governement over all Christians in the world if there were any Divine and Evangelicall truth in it at all But there is no truth in it Because this is no Divine and Evangelical way for Vnitie in religion viz. to constitute one Visible Head with absolute power of Spirituall governement whether Diocesan or Provinciall or Vniversall Or to take from the Christian people their free consent There is not in the Gospell any such Meanes to Vnitie It is a Humane policie a carnall device it is no institution of Christ Iesus Gods writt◠word is the cause of Vnitie Who in his word and by his word with the helpe of the Ministerie therein ordained provideth sufficiently for true peace and holy Vnitie among all his people For he saith “ Mat. 28.29 Ye erre not knowing the Scriptures And †Ioh. 5.39 Search the Scriptures for they are they which testifie of me And “ chap. 14.6 Rom. 16 17. I am the way the truth and the life Likewise the Apostle testifyeth that those are the makers of Schismes and divisions who teach and holde any thing besides the doctrine learned from the Apostles So that indeed the meanes appointed of GOD to make Vnitie in the Church is Gods word and not one Superiour over-ruling Minister over many distinct ordinarie Cōgregations which the word knoweth not But in truth such a one is the very proper cause of dissention and schisme For he not willing to submit to Gods word by his power draweth many with him yet he cannot lightly prevayle with all Wherevpon followeth dissention and schisme And then he with his cōpany being the stronger in the world may cry out loudest against those fewer that dissent from him that they are
or to Timothie For he would not that they should do any thing by their privat authorâ—tie but he commaundeth them to take care that worthy and fit Ministers bee ordayned aâ—cording to the office of Guides and Overseers Nâ—ither is it likely that more was graunted to them then to the Apostles themselves who determined nothing in this cause at any time without the churches cousaill or witbout taking the churches advise For a little after they both chose Deacons publikly in the preseÌ„ce of the church and Paul with Barnabas are read to have ordayned Presbyters throughout every Church gathering the voyces of every maÌ„ Act 6 3.4 Arguitur exemple hoc corruptissimus idemque perniciosissimus Ministros eligends mos quem tam seculis aliquot hâc in causa imperâ—um obtinuisse constat Quofit vt non raro vâ—us aliquis in pluribus Ecclesijs privata authoritate Ministros Eligat Ordinet Quaete potissimum ab Abbatibus Episcopis Prapositis peccaiur Nec meitùs rem administrant nonnulli inter eos qui Evangelij nomine gloriantur Ecclesiarum reformatores baberi volunt Dum enim isis malè vsurpata possessione Monachos Episcopos vt par est eijeiunt Ecclesijstamen libertatem illorum tyrannide ereptam non restituunt Sed pro suâ— arbitrio administrant quae olim ab Episcopis Monachis administrari solebant Quod malum nisi brevi reprimatur Simoniâ—m exitialem omnis Ecclesiasticae Disciplina confusionem nobis pariet Atque omne boâ— Romanis Pontificibus debetur c. Maximè Calisto secundo ex quo tempore Ecclesia libertas ceu lethali morbo contabescens tandem in vniversum evanuit Quam quicunque restitutam volunt sive illi verbi Ministri sint sive Magistratus huc incumbendum sibi esse sciant vt vetus Ministrorum eligendorum consuetudo in ducatur By this example is reproved that most corrupt also most pernicious manner of chosing Ministers which it is manifest hath gotteÌ„ DominioÌ„ Lordly rule in this affaire now these certaine ages Whereby it is that not seldome one both choseth and ordayneth Ministers in many Churches by his privat authoritie Wherein chieflic the Abbots As in England c. Bishops and Rulers offende Neither do divers others among those that glorie in the name of the Gospell and would be counted Reformers of Churches order this matter better For while they put foorth the Monkes Bishops as it is meete they should out of their possession wickedly vsurped yet the libertie which they tooke away from their tyrannie they restore not to the Churches but administer those thinges at their owne will which in time past were wont to bee administred by the Bishops and Monkes Which evill vnles it bee shortly repressed it will bring foorth among vs both Simonie and also a deadly confusion of all Church Dâ—â—ciplice And all this wee have from the Bishops of Rome c. Chieflie from Calistus the second FroÌ„ which time the Churches libertie as it were languishing with a deadly sicknes at last vanished away wholy Which whosoever do desire that it may be restored whether they be Ministers or Magistrates let them know they must labour for this that the old custome of chosing Ministers bee brought in againe 11. Vrsimus Vnto these we will adde Vrsinus who teacheth thus Math. 18.17 If he refuse to heare the Church “ Catech. pa. 799.800 Printed at Oxfor An. 1589 let him be vnto thee as a Heathen a Publican In these wordes Christ expresly commaundeth all whosoever beeing after this sort admonished by the Church will not repent to bee by the common consent of the Church excommunicated vntill they repent And whosoever are excommunicated they againe professing and shewing in their actions amendment are altogeather in lake sort receaved into the Church as they were exiled from it namely by the iudgement of the Elders by the consent of the Church and the authoritie of Christ and the Scripture And that deâ—untiation whereby one is excommunicated is not in the power of the Minister of the Church but in the power of the Church and is done in the name of the Church because this Commandment was given by Christ vnto the church For he saith expresly Tel the Church 12. Danaus In 1 Tim. 5.22 Heere also Danaus is worthie to bee remembred He saith Approbatio eligendi Ministri ad plebem totum populum Ecclesia sanè pertinet The approbation of the Minister to bee chosen pertayneth truly to the whole people of the Church Againe Plebem non esse ab ordinationibâ— vocandorum preficiendorum muneribu Ecclesiasticis excludâ—ndam demonstant examplâ— veteris Ecclesiae c. That the people â—ught not to bee excluded from the ordinations of Ministers the examâ—les of the old Church do demonstrat in which without doubt the Election by voyces of the whole Church was vsed as it is easie to be shewed in Act 6. 14. Therefore they do perfidiously deprive the Church of her right Perfidie who thrust a Pastor on a people without their knowledge and consent For they do the Church the greatest iniurie when they spoile her of her iudgement and voyce giving Sacrilege or Church robbing Who therefore are truly to bee called Sacrilegious or Church-robbers Neither indeed is he a lawful Pastor which is over a flocke being ignorant of his comming or against their will or not consenting Which presently after he sticketh not to applie to the callings of the Ministers in England saying Ex his omnibus apparet quam nulla sit vel non legitima corum verbi Ministrorum Vocatio c. By all this it appeareth how that calling of Ministers is none or not lawfull which is made by the authoritie letters commaundement and iudgement of the King alone or Queene or the Patrone or Bishop or Archbishop c. veluti in mediâ Angliâ as it is vsed in England Id quod dolendum est which I speake with greefe Moreover concerning Excommunication he saith “ In vers 1. Hac iurisdictio est totuâ— quidem Ecclesia ratione potestatis Prepositotum autem ratione exercitij adminisirationis This iurisdiction is the whole Churâ—hes in respect of the power thereof but it beâ—ongeth to the Guides of the Church in respect â—f administring it namely populo assentiente with the peoples consent as hee addeth a â—ittle after And againe Executioni puâ—lica censura intervenire debet notitia conâ—ensus Ecclesia The knowledge and consent of the Church ought to be in the execution of the publike censure 13. Tilenus Neither shall Tilenus testimonie bee vnremembred who aunswering the Coâ—nt Lavl that required him to shew what calling Calvin had saith “ Respons ad Com Lavallium quest 3 The people of Geneva professing the Gospel did first call Farel to be their Pastor then he they called Calvin to be likewise Applying Ciprians sentence thervnto who avoucheth “ Epist
14. That the people most of all have power to chose worthy Ministers and to refuse their vnworthy ones After which he sheweth that the other churches els-where professing the Gospell refusing Poperie did likewise They who had a calling from the church of Râ—me renounced it resting on that which they have according to the rule of the Gospell 14. Iunius Also Iunius saith †Ecclesiastie 3.1 Simplicissimam quidem probatissimamque Eligendi Vocandi viam illam esse constat ex Scripturae Sacrae testimonijs quam Apostoli in Ecclesijs tenuerunt olim prisca Ecclesia aliquamdiu eos imitata observavit Eligebat tota Ecclesia id est corpus ex Presbyterio populo seu plebe constitutum equis communihus suffragijs Haec iusta electionis ratio It is manifest that that way of chosing and calling Ministers is most simple and most approoved by the testimonies of holy Scripture which the Apostles in old time did keepe in the Churches and the ancient Church sometime imitating them did observe The whole Church did chose that is the Body consisting of the Eldership and people or common sort by equal common voyces This is the iust manner of Chosing Ministers Afterward hee saith This the old Church did observe very long doneo res coeperunt vt fit humanitus in peius ruere atque retrò sublapsa referri Vntill as through mens corruption it comes to passs things began to grow worse and to runne to ruine And after that corruptioÌ„ in the Church government was come in Yet saith he id semper obtinuit vt Ecclesia actioni toti interesset camque prasentiâ suâ haberet raetam That alwayes was in force that the Church was present at the whole action and ratifyed it with their presence But neither this in England is seene anie where neither will bee allowed Also Iunius saith Where the Church at any time doth no more but ratifie matters by their presence only the Guidâ—t ought to certifie the Church that if they can them selves take care for do their owne affaires non fore penâ—â—â—â—lâ—um Episcoporum Seniorumve coetum vt 〈◊〉 siâ—i cum damno Ecclesia iniuriae ignominâ arroget It shall not be in the power of any asâ—eÌ„bly of Bishops or Elders to arrogat so much to them selves with the Churches dammage iniurie and shame Where hee professeth that this is the Church â—s daÌ„mage iniurie shame if being vnderstaÌ„ding Christians they be only present at the chosing and ordayning of their Ministers if they do not also them selves chose or at least freely expresly coÌ„sent to the chosing and ordayning of them After noting the tyrannie which was in this behalfe vnder the Pope he saith Iam de populo queÌ„ Christus redemit suo sanguine Ecclesiam sibi ex eo compararet verbum nullum Now of the people there was not one word whom Christ redeemed with his bloud that they might be his Church And he addeth Hinc illa barbaries hinc colluvies selelerum omnium hinc illa fraudum nundinationuÌ„ sentina exundavit Hence came that barbarous ignorance in those times that heape of all sinnes that sinke of deceit and selling of the soules of men TheÌ„ speaking of some Churches Magistrates who have worthily freed themselves from the Pope yet hee leaveth this foule blot vpon them Ius illud Eccesiasticum institutionis ordimationis restitut non curant Ecclesijs They care not to restore to the Churches this right of theirs viz of making ordaining of Minister Finally he answeceth some obiections At nescit populus dixerit quispiam Doceatur sciet At nescit vti Imo nesciet vnquam Siture suo non vtatur vnquam At factiosus est plerumque in diversas partes studiaque scinditur Revocetur adpaceÌ„ monitis salutaribus compescatur authoritate verbt virorumque bonorum officijs vt conciliatis compositis animis faciant quod sui turis est But some will say The people is ignorant of their duty and right heerein Let them be taught and they wil vnderstand it But they know not how to vse this their right They will not know it ever if they vse it never But they are factious often and are divided into partes Let them be reduced to Peace by wholesome counsaill and let them be ruled by the authority of the word and the indeavours of good men that their mindes being ordered they may do that which is their right to do 15. Piscator About ExcoÌ„municatioÌ„ Piscator saith “ Observ ex â— cap. 1. Cor. Excommunication ought to bee don by the Church or by the Presbyterie iudging in the name of the Church Where all meÌ„ may see his meaning to bee this viz. that the Presbyterie may excoÌ„municat howbeit alwayes with the Churches free consent For so he signifieth by these wordes iudging in the name of the Church It can not be that hee should meane that they may Excommunicate by their owne power and right onely or whether the Church will or no. After the same maner also I doubt not som others do speake concerning the making king of Ministers Whose sense and meaning is to be taken altogeather to that purpose likewise In the Churches â—amâ— that is Executing the Churches â—uthoritie and power and doing that which they do with their free conâ—ent and approbation 16. Chemniciâ—â— Chemnicius a man most famous of â—are learning among the followers of Luther in the matter of the reall presence yet in our cause hee saith thus “ Exam. part pag. 226. 227. 228. Non sine consensu Ecclesiae Paulus Barâ—abas invitis obtruserunt Presbyteros Paul and Barnabas did not thrust Ministers on the Church being vnwilling or without their â—onsent And Exempla Aposiolica bistoria â—â—are oftendunt c. The examples of the Apostles storie do cleerely shew that Election or Vocation did belong to the whole church And Haec est Apostolicae primitiva veteâ—â— Eccesia sententia de legitima Electione Vocatione Ministrorum c. This is the iudgement and way of the Apostolike primitive and ancient Church concerning the lawful Election and Calling of Ministers which iudgement and way hath place in those Churches which are coÌ„stituted according to Gods word And he addeth In our Churches it is so meaning in those that follow Luther 17. Whitakeâ— Neither can I forget that among â—ur owne Country-men D. Whitaker â—eacheth thus “ De Coneâ—â— pag. 44. Quod omnes attingit ab â—â—â—â—bus approbari debet That which toucheth all Chap. 4. ought to be approved of all Meaning that nothing should bee obtruded vpon any people in Ecclesiasticall and Spirituall regiment no not by Synods except the people consent to it And this consent of the people hitherto avouched verily many other worthy Divines both among vs abroad do maintaine likewise But I forbeare to nominate any mo Knowing that to whom any thing will be enough
meet and able to have the governement of the Church there And againe out of Egesippus “ 4. â—1 After that Iames was slame Simeon the soâ—e of Cleophas was made Bishop whom in tâ—esecond place all the Disciples appointed by voyces to that governement This was the first most notable exaÌ„ple of the Christians pract se in this matter neither caÌ„â—â—â— we read of any neerer to the Apostles after the times of the New TestameÌ„t then this Also wee see it was in the very Mother Church of all Christianitie Wherefore this order of Calling to the ministerie rather then any later is most worthy yea necessary to be observed and imitated by vs every where and for ever The like we read of there againe thus “ 6â— Anno 205. When Narcissiâ— the Bishop had withdrawne himselfe was gone no man knew whither they who governed the neighbour Churches thought good to make another Bishop But how By the peoples voyces And so Dius was chosen Afterward Narcissus returning the Brethren desired him to take againâ— the governement of the Church Vnto whom was adioyned Alexander for his fellow the people of Ierusalem with the common consent of the neighbour Bishops constrayning him necessarily to tary with them These were the meanes that made these Ministers Ignatius of Antioch teacheth and saith to the Church at Philadelphia that “ Ignat. ad Philad It was meâ—te for them as being a Church of God Anno 112. by voices to chose their Bishop 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 It can not be denied but that this writer sheweth in the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is Lifting vp of hands â—n thepeoples voyce giving that Elections of Ministers were then made by the peoples free choyce Seeing he signifyeth Ordination and Laying on of handes by another proper word viz. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 The practise of the Church of Rome was also the same in this matter Anno 240. Of which we read ' Euseb 6.2 When all the Brethren were come togeather in the Church for the purpose to chose a Bishop whose place now was voyd the whole people with one consent cryed that Fabianus was worthy of that dignitie and presently he was placed in the same Afterward againe we read of Cornelius that he was chosen in like maner For so writeth Cyprian of him saying †Cyprian Epist 4.2 Factus est Cornelius Episcopus de Dei Christs eius iudicio de plebis qua tune affuit suffragio c. Cornelius was made Bishop by the iudgement of God and his Christ by the voyce giving of the people which was then present c In an other place also he saith Hee was †3.13 de Dei iudtcio Cleri ac Plebis suffragio ordinatus Ordayned by the iudgement of God and by the voyces of the Clergie and people The practise of the Church of Carthage was the same Anno â—5â— as Cyprian also speaking of him self sheweth saying that he was chosen “ Cyprian Epist 1.3 Populi vniversi suffragio in pace by the voyce-giving of the whole people in peace and quietly also he calleth this †1.8 their voyce giving Gods iudgement And he writeth of another Church in Afrike at Legio as we may gather that there one Sabinus was made Bishop †1.4 de vniversae fraternstatis suffragio by the voyce-giving of the whole brotherhood and by the iudgement of the Bishops that were come togeather But above all other that place in Cyprian is singular for our purpose where his owne iudgement and sentence with many other Bishops besides is to bee noted concerning this power and right of the people It is in this same Epistle a litle before thus “ Ibidem viz. 1.4 Plebs obsequens praeceptis Dominicis Deum metuens a peccatore praeposito separate se debet nec se ad sacrilegi Sacerdotis sacrificsa miscere cum ipsa maximè babeat poteslatem vel eligendi dignos Sacerdotes vel indignos recusandi Quod ipsum videmus de Divina authoritate descendere c. A people obeying the Lords Commandementes and fearing God ought to separate them selves from a wickeâ— Minister and not ioyne them selves to the Divine Service of a Sacrilegious Priest seeing they the people chiefly have power to chose worthy Ministers and to refuse vnworthy ones Which thing also we see cometh fiâ— Divine authoritie c. Lo what Cyprians iudgement is of the peoples power right in the making of Ministers He with divers other his fellow-Bishops doth heere professe that it cometh froÌ„ Divine authoritie So before he called it Gods iudgement and his Christes What can be more full and absolute to our purpose then this The same also he holdeth touching the peoples power in Church ceÌ„sures As where he willeth Stephan Bishop of Rome to write “ Epist 3.14 ad plebem Arelate consistentem to the people at Arles in France His intent is heere that their Novatian Bishop Martianus should bee removed and another set in his place by them togeather with Stephans helpe And elswhere touching one Victor a Presbyter fallen from the Church returned againe Cyprian greatly misliketh rebuketh Therapius the Bishop for receaving him †3.8 sine petitu conscientia plebis without the desire knowledge of the people and adviseth him that hee do so no more And as touching himselfe hee sheweth in many places his owne constant practise to be such also Or without the desire c conscience of the people First of some rash and proud Presbyters hee saith if they persisted in their scandalous behaviour they should answer it “ 3.14 apud plebe vniversam before all the people as iudges with himselfe others of their misdemeanor Againe writing severally to his people about some that desired to bee reconciled to the Church at Carthage he saith “ 3.16 Examinabuntur singula praese itibus iudicantibus vobis Every thing shal be examined you the people being present and iudging of it And thus hee meaneth where he saith hee must †3 1â— dispomere omnia consilij communis religione disoose all things by a religious observing of such common advise Lo he putteth acknowledgeth Religion heerein And therfore it is that to a few Presbyters of his Church who had written to him being then absent from Carthage about som of his church affaires he saith He could not so much as write backe to theÌ„ therof “ 3.10 Seeing he had determined to do nothing privatly of his owne minde without the Presbyters counsaill and the peoples consent And promiseth that when hee should returne he will handle matters in common both such as were past while hee was absent and also such as were to come after his returne Yea and therfore in an other place he saith “ 3.19 Praiudicare ego solum mihi rem communem vendicare non audeo I dare not praeiudge
have to that purâ—ise handled in my 3. and 9. Argumentes of the Divine beginning and institution of Christes Visible and Ministeriall Church do well shew and testifie to vs so much CHAP. VI. Our very Adversaries do acknowledge with vs the truth of this doctrine sometimes in plaine termes Chap. 6. and sometimes to the same full effect specially when they deale against the Papistes THE force and evidence of this truth viz. touching the peoples right for their free consent in Church governement is such that also our very Adversaries sometimes in plaine termes sometimes to the same full effect do acknowledge it Among many I will content my selfe with two for the present viz. D. Bilson and D. Downame The first of these in his Answer to the Apologie of the Seminarie Pristes and Iesuits writeth thus “ D. Bila against the Seminar part 2 353.356 We have the words and warrant of the H. Ghost for that which we say c. viz. That the people can and ought to disceme and trie the doctrine and spirits of the Teachers c so to chose and refuse theÌ„ as they by the word should see good Thus saith hee And what can be spoken by any of our selves more plainly and more fully to our purpose If the people can and ought to chose their Teachers and to refuse whom they finde worthy to be refused then why are they not allowed so to do in England If the wordes and warrant of the holy Ghost be for it then who may impeach it Who may resist it What are they that revile and persecute this way Hee addeth heere in this place that the people “ Pag. 355. have skill and leave to discerne both viz. to discerne the Teachers their doctrine Where also hee discourseth much vpon this right of the people as being Christes ordinaÌ„ce and presseth it against the Papistes Yea in another booke where he pleadeth to the contrarie purpose against vs yet hee writeth thus Perpet gov pag 300. * The Apostles left Elections indifferently to the people and Clergie of Ierusalem The people had as much right to chose their Pastor as the Clergie that had more skill to iudge “ Pag 339. Well may the peoples interest stand vpon the grounds of Reason Nature and be derived from the rules of Christian equitie * Pag. 359. The late Bishops of Rome have not ceased cursing and fighting till excluding both Prince and people they reduced the Election wholy to the Clergie But hee telleth them that by their leave applying heerevnto the wordes of Christ Mat. 19. 8. it was not so from the beginning Againe hee saith †Pag. 330. I a knowledge each Church and people stand frâ—e by Gods law to admit maintaine and obey no man as their Pastor without their liking Where in deed he addeth to the contrarie vnles by law custome or consent they restraine themselves But this he him selfe els-where answereth roundly “ Pag. 221. What authoritie had others after the Apostles deathes to chaÌ„ge the Apostolike governement And that it was not so from the beginning which before he answered is a full confutation also of this exception As also where he calleth Mens ordinances in Church governement †Pag. 19. Corruptions of times inventions of Men and a transgressing of the Commandement of God for the traditions of men And where he calleth such ordinances “ Pag. 111. intrusion and presumption As for that he saith elswhere in this booke †Pag 82. the Multitude hee meaneth the Christian people neither could not can iudge of the giftes and abilities of Pastors no more then blind men of colours This sheweth plainly his variable minde contradiction to him selfe As for the matter it is spoken meerely out of an humour and partialitie against vs and that his Lordship in spirituall things over Christes people might be stablished But before against the maine adversaries of the Gospell the Papistes he taught the truth as the Scripture there alleaged doth shew but heere in this last place he turneth about ioyneth with them rather then he would seeme to consent with vs. Nevertheles his former most cleere and syncere testimonie on our behalfe can not be blotted out Againe in the same booke speaking of Bishops in plaine termes thus hee saith “ pag. 340. They have no power to impose a Pastor on any Church against their willes nor to force them to yeeld him obedience or maintenance against their liking If this were ingenuously acknowledged and professed practised likewise religiously we should desire no more for the substance of the matter as it hath ben often saide Our agreement togeather touchinge Church-governement would soone appeare But he when he listeth will tell vs that Timothie and Tâ—â—s whom hee esteemeth Bishops had power to make Presbyters to Churches and the Apostles also “ pag. 88. without the people or their consent Wherefore what to reckon of his sayings and speaches we know not Only his foresaid agreement with vs in wordes is manifest Next to him wee will consider of Doctor Downame He in a certain place though it seemeth full sore against his will yet through the force of the truth being compelled acknowledgeth and yeeldeth vnto vs that †D Down Def. 4.99 the power of ordination and iurisdiction by right is seated in the whole Church or Congregation in case of necessitie wherein both the succession of their owne Clergie fayling and the helpe of others wanting the right is devolved to the whole body of the Church In which words I desire all men to observe how this Doctor graunteth vs the cause in full effect and agreeth wholy to our purpose For that which heere hee saith and which necessarilie followeth from these wordes is all that weâ— desire Wherefore I pray the Christian Reader to marke well these seaven Consequentes which follow froÌ„ these wordes of D. Downame and cannot be denyed by any honest and true-hearted Christian First in that he holdeth that the power of ordination and iurisdiction by right is seated in the particular Congregation in case of necessitie it is certain therfore that he must hold that this right and power is seated in the whole particular Congregation by Christ and by the ordinance of God For no person or persons can at any time nor in any respect have such power by Mans ordinance It can not bee either Naturally or Civilly given or receaved Wherefore in whom soever that power is seated at what time soever doubtles it is in them Supernaturally God by his speciall grace giveth it and Christ by his holy ordinance seateth it in them Yea though it bee in any case of necessitie whatsoever For thus it is written “ Iob 3. â—7 A man can receave nothing except it be given him from heaven That is No dignitie no authoritie no power in the Church can be but from God And it is spoken absolutly touching all
times places and persons without any limitation The like proofe is that also in another text viz. †Hebr. 9. â—â— No man taketh this honour to him selfe but be that is called of God as Aaron was But I wil presse this no further For I suppose every Christian advised will acknowledge it and I have shewed it at large in a speciall treatise for the purpose viz. The Divine beginning and institution of Christes true visible Ministeriall Church Secondly If Chist him selfe have seated the power of Ordination and Iurisdiction in the whole CoÌ„gregation at any time then it is certain that so much is contained some-where in the New Testament This is no Vnwritten Tradition neither can be by any meanes if Christ him selfe be the Author heereof as before we have seene that he is Thirdly This being contayned in the New Testament viz. that Christ him selfe hath seated the power of ordination iurisdiction in the whole body of a particular CoÌ„gregation in the case of necessitie it is certain then that it is contained in those speciall places which after many other worthy Divines I have to this purpose cited and alleaged in the third and 9. Arguments of my forenamed Treatise of the Divine beginning and instituâ—â—â— of Christs true visible Ministerial Church For there can bee no other instance shewed at least none can bee shewed of any other tenor then those are Which speciall places are these Math. 18.17 and 1. Cor. 5.13 2. Thes 3.14 and 2. Co. 2.8 Also Act. 14.23 Act. 6.3.5.6 Act. 1.23.26 and Act. 15.22.25.28 as it appeareth in the foresaid Arguments of the said Treatise Fourthly these places of Christes Testament shewing that Christ hath seated the power of ordination and iurisdiction in the whole particular CoÌ„gregation theÌ„ it must needes be that these shew the said whole Congregation to have that power and right not in the case of necessitie only but even alwayes at all seasons This likewise cannot be denyed For in these speciall places there is no restraint of this power and right in the Congregation no abridging thereof no tying it to the case of necessitie only but they shew it to be in the people from God indefinitly and without limitation Neither is it otherwise to be found in Christes Testament any where els Wherefore by no meanes may men restraine that which God hath given indefinitly Nor take that away from â—is people at any time which he hath given them simply 2. Cor 2.24 What is proud â—lesh and bloud to inhibit or lessen Christs vnlimited free graunt gracious gift to his Church Or how can our soules rest assured wheÌ„ we yeeld to such presumption of men Wherevpon wee may fee that this restraining clause of our Doctor heere added that this acknowledgement of his is not true of any particular Congregation but in pase of necessitie is both a false and absurd addition False as beeing contrary to the generalitie of those speciall places of Christes Testament above mentioned absurd as implying by necessary consequence a contradiction to himselfe in one the same sentence For his present acknowledgement such as it is implyeth the contrary to this his limitation by necessarie consequence as before in this fourth point I have shewed Fiftly this power of Ordination and Iurisdiction being by Christ seated in the whole Congregation and that alwayes surely then it must needs be in them only And so I vnderstand in another place “ Declaâ—â—â— Pag. â— 35. where I say that this power is coÌ„vertible with the CoÌ„gregation I affirme therefore that this power indeed is onely in the whole Congregation Although D. D. Downame hath skill to go two ways to Heaven for the true Church-governemeÌ„t is the way to heaveÌ„ yet our good holy and wise God approoveth but one way as where he saith “ Isa 30.21 This is the way walke ye in it Turne not therefrom neither to the right hande nor to the less And where Christ saith * Ioh. 14.6 I am the way the truth and the life He alloweth simply but one way even that which is his owne ordinance and none other Vas via vna veritas One way one truth Also Veritas simplex error autem multiplex Truth is but one Error is manifold Wherefore it can not be but the power of Ordination and Iurisdiction being by Christ seated in the whole Congregation it is also only in them Heere the adversaries thinke they have a great advantage against vs. They say it appeareth in the Scripture that “ 1. Tim. 5.22 Tamothie and †Tit. 1.5 Titus had power of Ordination and iurisdiction Therefore only the CoÌ„gregations had not that power I answer This consequence is vtterly false it followeth not at all For Timothie Titus had the power of Ordination and iurisdiction with the Congregations Now the CoÌ„gregatioÌ„ only had power not without them Being partes of them and being present in them for the time not being personally out of them or absent froÌ„ them So as the L. Bishops do exercise their power in England Againe as Paul saith to the Corinthians that “ 2 Cor â— 24 he was not 〈◊〉 Lord over their faith but a helper to them for their â—oy So these viz. Timothia and Titus in the Congregations were not Lords but they were Helpers to them in the managing of these affaires They did not alone without the Congregations concurrence what themselves listed but they ordered guided the Congregations in this their busines as Directors and chiefe Counsellors and as the most worthie to bee Actors thereof for them And the like was the power of the Apostles also towards the Congregations It was such I say and none other Indeed in their Doctrine and teaching they by them selves alone instructed them sometime commaunded them in the name of Christ but in outward governement they did not any thing alone or Lordly that is without the Congregations free consent Wherefore much rather the power of all ordinarie true Bishops and Pastors is such and no greater They have power of Ordination and iurisdiction but yet evermore with the Congregations presence and free consent as their instruments doing their actes in the Churches name and by their authoritie not in their owne name noâ— solely as Lords So it remayneth evident that Bishops primitively yea Timothie and Titus and the Apostleâ— themselves had power of ordinarie Church governement and yet the Congregations only had this power Because they evermore were partes of the Congregations in them when they had and vsed their power Sixtly it followeth also necessarily from hence that the power of Ordination and iurisdiction is in the body of the Congregation Substantially Essentially and Fundamentally after Christ and the Congregation may bee truly said in such respect to do performe those actions the Bishops and Guides do these actions Instrumentally and Ministerially and no otherwise then in the Congregations name and by their authoritie as
of the Vniversal Church which yet he acknowledgeth is to be governed out wardly M. Gabr. Powell like a wise maÌ„ maketh it an heresie in the Pope to holde as he doth †Gabr. Powel de Antichristo pag. 254. In Eccesia oportere esse Visibile caput That in the Visible Church there ought to be a visible head What do I heare A visible Body instituted by Christ without a Visible Head A Church and no Pastor A multitude to be governed and no Governor These are strange assertioÌ„s who soever how many soever do affirme theÌ„ For I graunt there are not a few others also which vse so to speake But in deed there is no colour of truth nor reason in these sayings Some will say D. “ Perp. gov pag. 372. Bilson D. †Def. 3.4 Downame both do shew that this one Body and Church Vniversall is to be governed by a Vniversall Synod Do they so Very well Then who shall call this Synod The calling of Provinciall Synods “ Perp. gov pa. 377 39â— they make a good reason for a Metropolitane or Archbishop Certainly the calling of a Vniversall Synod doth far better and more necessarily require a Pope A Vniversal Synod ablosute Nay â—t requireth a Pope certainly Besides it is a question whether a Vniversall Synod hath ever ben or can possibly â—e rightly and duly had At the most it is plaine that such Synodes are exceeding rare and seldom and hardly effected Math. 18.15.16.17 But the causes of the Churches governement are frequent continuall and every day What shall we thinke Hath Christ left his Body deare Spouse without helpe without governement in such dayly and continuall necessities Or can an ordinarie body be governed without an ordinarie Head To vse D. Bilsons words “ Perp. gov pag. 376. this were an heathenish if not a hellish confusion Wherefore these consequences all do follow certainly and necessarilie A Vniversall Church must have a Vniversall ordinarie Pastor And so much touching the Proposition of this reason My Assumption is this But no Vniversall Ordinarie Pastor is of Divine institution in the New Testament And this they all affirme with me constantly Therefore the Conclusion is true viz No Vniversall proper Church and consequently also no Vniversall nor any other representative Church is of Divine institution in the New Testament Hitherto I have shewed our reasons and witnesses against Synods exercising absolut power spirituall over ChristiaÌ„ people which are also churches representative To which busines I have ben forced by Do. Downames importunat flannders both generally against vs and against my selfe in particular Who heerein first compareth vs to the “ Def. 1 4â— Pope from whom he knoweth we are far enough of Where as indeed his absolut Synods do agree with the Pope too well and do make to much for him as †Pag. 110.111 112.113.114 before we saw Then he vpbraideth vs that wee will not be ruled by Synodes I answer Wee submit our selves to be ruled spiritually by Christes true visible Church instituted in his word And what would he have more Thirdly hee goeth about to deny that we subject our selves to the Kings Supremacie Whether hee doth this with more malice or foolishnes I know not For he can not be ignorant that though we affirme that the Church governement is independent and immediatly derived from Christ yet we affirme also it standeth with good reason that the Civil Magistrate is even therein Supreme Governor Civilly And though nothing may be imposed on the Christian people of a Congregation against their wills by any Spirituall authoritie for so only we intend yet we affirme withall that the Civill Magistrat may impose on them Spirituall matters by Civill power yea whether they like or dislike if hee see it good This we al gladly acknowledge Wherein we referre our selves to that which we have “ Petit. for toleration Offer c. publikly written protested in this behalfe Fourthly he falsly chargeth me by name that I in my booke of Reasons for reformation do not acknowledge in Synods any lawfull authoritie †Def. 3.4 to determine He might “ Perp. gov pa. 382.383 thus charge Doctor Bilson But I in that booke and place which hee wrangleth with do expresly say †Reas. for reform p. 31 Synods determinations are most expedient and wholesome alwayes In which respect I “ See before pag. 89. allow also the Apostles practise in Act. 15. as being both a Synod and an authentike rule and patterne for Synods Where the Apostles with others when an occasion cause was given them did not only meet togeather consult but also they did define determine and decree certain pointes yea they delivered the same to divers Churches to be kept who had no Deputies for them present in that Apostolike assembly Howbeit these Apostles delivered abroad these their Decrees only so and in such wise as informing and teaching all men thereby what they ought to do that is in maner of doctrine To the Church of Antioch whom it most concerned only this they say If ye observe these things “ Act. 15.29 ye shall do well They say not The Minister that imbraceth not these ordinaÌ„ces is deprived of his ministerie the person receyving them not is excommunicat ipso facto or he is Anathema accursed As some Synods do pronounce I grant Synods may discusse and determine of errors and may pronounce them wicked and accursed errors But actually excommunicat mens persons the Apostles never did without the concurrence and consent of that Congregation where they were members Wherefore more then this no Synod at anie time may do by the rule of the Gospell If any do impose any of their acts on a CoÌ„gregation whether they like or dislike vpon pavne of some spirituall censure yea if it be on anie one person without the same Congregations consent of which hee is certainly as I said it is more then the Apostles ever did in the Church-governement and therefore we can not out conclude that it is now vnlawful for vs so to do Also it is that point which all the forenoted sentences of those late Writers most excellent lights of the Gospell do condemne Wherefore we willingly take that Apostolike practise in Act. 15. both as being a Synod also a good patterne of Synods for ever Neither do wee in deed mislike any Christian Synods but greatly approve of them though some out of malice do obiect to vs the contrary Alwayes the Apostles practise we take for our rule And so much touching the second coÌ„sequent in this Chapter Thirdly it being admitted as Christs ordinance that the Church governement ought to bee alwayes with the peoples free coÌ„sent it followeth that Lord Bishops in severall are vnlawfull contrarie to Christ Now a Lord Bishop Who is a Spirituall Lord. and a Spirituall Lord we alwayes vnderstand him to be who exerciseth sole authoritie
Spirituall or sole government Ecclesiasticall yea though over but one Congregation Much more him who exerciseth such spirituall Lordship over a great many CoÌ„gregations Also What is Sole authoritie Spirituall in our sense sole authoritie Spirituall and sole governement Ecclesiasticall we call that which is exercised without the Christian peoples free consent D. Downame laboureth with divers vaine shifts to defend the English L. Bishops herein He can not abide that it should bee saide of them that they exercise “ Def. 1.58.47.43 sole authoritie or sole government Yea in many places hee * Def 3 118.11â—.126.142 sheweth indignation that such wronge should be done them in beeing so reported of But it is strange Are they ashamed to heare of that which they cease not to practise and maintaine every day and that in the sight of the world yea each of them over divers hundreds of Congregations For the people with vs no where enioy any free consent But the D. saith “ Def. 1.43.44 The Bishop hath the Archbishop above him Yea but who is above our 2. Archbishops spiritually No body Againe he saith Provinciall Synods are above the Bishop Idly spoken Is the Diocesan Synod above their owne Bishop Or is the Provinciall Synod above their Archbishop Surely no more then the Vniversall Councill is above the Pope Which is cleane contrarie Now this is it which hee should have affirmed buthe durst not He shifteth further saying “ Pag. 44. Do we not all with one consent acknowledge the Kings Maiestie to have the Supreme authoritie in causes Ecclesiasticall Yea verily wee do But that is Civilly as “ Reas. for ref p. 62. â—â— els-where I have shewed Hee hath no authoritie in causes Ecclesiasticall Spiritually that is his authoritie properly maketh no Church Minister nor Excommunicateth any person Which I suppose your selves do hold even as we do But this is the point in England the Archb. is Spiritually Supreme or hath Supreme authority spiritual in his Province I say thus he is Supreme sole viz. spiritually Wherfore the Doct. Ignorantia Elenchi grosly sophisticateth in shifting from the poâ—â—t in hand to an other matter Where hee speaketh of “ Def. 1. p. 43 Chancellors adioyned to the Bishops and of Presbyters consent with him that †Pag. 42. Presbyters have power to rule their flocke in publike Ministerie and in privat attendance that some of them have voyces in Synods c. I wot not what all this is Sure I am it is as idle as the rest For so much at least is seene in the Popish Church where yet is founde spirituall Lordship sole governement in their Bishops yea oppression violence tyrannie also over the peoples consciences as we well know So that the “ Pag. 43. Supreme and lowdest by and †Pag. 47. the plainely which hee giveth to vs hee ought to take to him selfe Another shift of the Doct. is where because the Hebrew Adoni the Greeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Latin Dominus may be given to Bishops therefore “ Def. 3.147 he would conclude that in English they may be called Lords D. Bilson reasoneth †Perp gov pag. 58. 59. so likewise and that very largely He would prove the same also from the Duch terme Here from the French Monsieur c. But I deny this reason absolutly For heerein there is no consequence Our English terme Lord and Lordship doth alwayes imply Sole government but none of those forraigne termes doth so alwayes Wherefore such reasoning is Equivocating also * Ioh. 13.13 1. Cor. 8.6 12.5 2. Cor. 1.24 Againe Christ only is our Lord in respect of Spirituall Lordship he only is to bee called a Spirituall Lord. But our Bishops are Lords and are so called with vs in respect as they bee Spirituall Lordes as the Doctor “ Def. 3.150 observeth well Wherefore our Bishops Lordship is vnlawfull and derogatorie to Christ Doct. Bilson saith further †Perp. gov pag. 62. If we sticke at titles Christ calleth them Gods Lo how nothing satisfyeth these men Would he have Bishops called by the name of Gods also But I would know of him where doth Christ call them Gods Surely it is but his fancie They are in deed so called no where D. Downame presseth that Bishops are called “ Def. 3.146.150 Angells which is a more honor able title then Lord. And therefore that Bishops may bee called Lords I deny that the name Angell is so honorable a title as a Spirituall Lord which is given to our Bishops This is proper to Christ only as before is said the name Angell is not And so his reason is false Againe though the name Angell be given to Bishops sometime and in one respect yet it is very false to say they may lawfully be stiled and called by the dayly appellation of Angells or that they may ordinarilie vse that title as they do the title name of Lord. Againe the name of Lord is given them as importing their sole governement as before is said But the name Angell importeth not so much neither is it given to any Creature in such respect Therfore from the name of Angell the title of Lorde followeth not Indeed the name of Angell is given to Bishops because they are Gods messengers to shew vs his will not in respect of their governement at all though the Doct. presumeth so to say without “ An Allegorie is no proofe proofe Lastly hee knoweth that all Preachers are in the word called Angells or Messengers but for all Preachers to be called in English Lords or your Lordship surely it would be a very arrogant thing And though hee “ Def. 1.34.46 alleage that the Angel of the church of Ephesus in Rev. 2.1 be one and but one before many Ministers yet neither doth this importe any Lordship in him either in name or practise neither is this precedence or praeeminence signifyed by the word Angel but it is gathered by coÌ„paring this word with the knowen circumstances of those times Further he alleageth that “ Def. 3.152 Princes are called Pastors and for the same cause are Lords Wherein there is no truth nor indeed any good sense The like is that where hee addeth the title of Father is as great as Lord. Nay the name of Father is amiable but Lords may and also they vse to force and compell Neither did the Pope at first take the name of Father peculiarly to him selfe to note thereby any Lordship as his due but to deceave the world by his pretended love over all wherein he desired to seeme a commoÌ„ Father In another * Def. 4.71.72 place he teacheth that Bishops in the New Testament were called Apostles VpoÌ„ which grouÌ„d he “ Def. 3 15â— would conclude that therefore the name of Lord is lawfull for them I answer The name of Apostle and also of Bishop may be vsed sometime
and Kingdome are not absolut and perfect toward vs but are diminished and changed now in respect as they were to the Iewes of old And the very forme of Christes saide Visible Church is changeable by men and may be instituted first by men Whence it also followeth that a noble part of Christes divine honor glory may bee by men diminished and taken from him and may lawfully bee attributed to men Every one of these consequents is certain neyther can any of them be denyed nor shifted off by our adversaries who reiect the said opinion of the peoples necessary Consent in the Church governement Now this I earnestly desire all men to take notice of that they may see what it is that hath mooved mee and still doth to imbrace the opinion contrarie to the course of the Church governement in England God is my witnes that were it not for these vnavoydable Consequents which touch the very life and soule of all true religion and godlynes I should long since have conformed now would in this bebalfe For otherwise what reason have I to care for the people But because my heart and conscience can not indure to admit these Consequentes which I hope is both honest yea necessarie and Christianlike and so will bee acknowledged by every good man that considereth it therefore doe I beleeve this said opinion as an Evangelicall truth viz. that the peoples coÌ„sent in church government is an Apostolike ordinance and Christes immutable Commandement to vs. And therefore principally did I write that Treatise which I intituled The Divine beginning and institution of Christes true Visible or Ministeriall Church Also the Vnchangeablenes of the same by men viz. 〈◊〉 the forme and essentiall Constitution thereof Which is all the matter that I have regard vnto even that I may in no wise be guiltie of that fearfull sacrilege of spoyling God of his Honor and of giving his glory to another which be so mainly “ Isa 42.8 forbiddeth Which I am sure is not don by acknowledging the foresaide right of the Christian people I am sure that thus all the fore named wicked and impious Consequentes †As by ouâ— Attestators beforâ— may bee seene are avoyded and the whole glory and honor of Christ our Savior iâ— preserved safe and sound For thus we easily holde him even in respect of instituting the forme of his Visible Church and governement therof vnder the Gospell to be our absolut Prophet and King and his New Testament to bee intire and perfect yea fully so perfect for vs as the Old Testament was for the Iewes and so the forme of his said Church and governement to be absolutly vnchangeable by men Even altogether no lesse then it was vnder the Law All this in holdinge our opinion I say wre are sure of Wherefore let me reason thus That opinion which yeeldeth CoÌ„sequents so godly and pious must needes it self be godly and pious questionles cometh from God But our opinion aforesaid yeeldeth CoÌ„sequents so godly and pious yea such in deed as are principles and fundamental grounds of Christian faith Therefore this our opinion it self is right godly pious and proceeding from God Contrarie-wise That opinion which necessarily forceth men to such impietie and vnchristian Consequentes as “ Pag. 133. 134. before I noted eveÌ„ to the overthrow of principles of faith the same it selfe is not of God neither standeth with truth What autors and fautors so ever it have But the opinion of our adversaries verily is such It forceth men of necessitie to those impious vnchristian Consequents as I shewed They can not possibly avoyd them Therefore the opinion of our adversaries viz. who deny the Christian peoples consent in Church governement to be an Apostolike Ordinance and an immutable coÌ„mandement of Christ and so do hold the forme of a proper Diocesan Church and governement to be lawfull and good their opinion I say is not of God neither standeth with truth Now the case standing thus as most cleerly it doth no man can deny but that in coÌ„sideratioÌ„ of these certain coÌ„sequents aforenamed as also in other iust respectes that faithfull man of God whosoever hee was that made that “ An humble Supplication c. An. 1609 Petition to the Kings Maiestie for a Toleration of our way and profession with peace and quietnes in England had great reason so to do and also his Excellent Maiestie bee it spoken with reverence to his Royall Estate to admit of it For what evill can ensue from vs when wee strictly hold fast as we do such holy and Divine principles of Christian faith as before are mentioned and when our inconformitic to the common course in England is only for these causes as I for my part do call God to witnes to my soule it is I say in regard of Religion thus what evill can probably be thought wil ensue from vs And as touching our tractablenes vnder the Kings authoritie and governement Doc. Downame our bitter adversarie “ Def. 1.66 acknowledgeth that wee submit our selves enough Nay he holdeth it to bee too much and proudly he calleth it a desperate or frantike minde in vs so to do But wee holde it our bounden dutie in the presence of God to submit our selves to any Civil Magistrat be he never so meane if the King appoint him over vs. But saith he †Def. 1.83 The summe of our suite in that petition is that we may be tolerated Schismatikes I challenge this rude Doctor and will prove that we seeing we holde only those fundamental Grounds of ChristiaÌ„ faith above meÌ„tioned and that which is evidently built vpon the same are not Schismaâ—â—kes Againe I will prove and make it manifest that indeed him selfe and his consortes are Schismaticks Who are the Schismatiks in England seeing he and they deny those foresaid fundamentall grounds of faith for which only wee contende They therefore them selves are the Schismatikes and “ Rom. 16.17 1. Tim. 6.3 the makerâ— of the division which is now in England All wise men know that not the difference but the cause maketh a Schismatike Let mee once againe therefore presse them with Augustinâ— sentence against the Donatistes which once already †Ang contra Peril 2.25 I did heretofore But they love not to heare of it Saith Augustine “ Reas. for ref pag 77. Virum Schismatici nos sumus an vos nee ego nec tu sed Christus interrogetur vt indicet Eeclesiam suam Lege ergo Evangelium respondet tibe c. Whether we or you be Schismarikes aske not me nor yourselves but aske Christ that hee may shewe his owne Church Read the Gospell therefore and 〈◊〉 answereth thee c. Our Doctor hath an absurd and profane distinction which though he apply it to another matter yet peradventure hee would vse it in this cause against vs if hee could finde that it would bee taken as currant Hee
he meaneth that it may bee so called but not truly Which is but double dealing For presently after he saith †Pag. 17. He separateth the true Kingdome of Christ from the externall Order and Discipline of the Church which some in these dayes more zealous then wise do not separate So he calleth the faithful worshippers of Christ But is it such wisedome I pray to seperat froÌ„ Christ this his Divine honor and glorie and to give it to others Nay this is accursed wisedome Then a Ministerie supposed to be setled by the Apostles in the Primitive Church he denyeth to bee any part of Christes Kingdome Hath hee any reason for it Yea a straÌ„ge one Saith he Christes kingdom is proper to his person As though the power and authoritie to institute setle such an ordinance might not be proper to Christes person and yet the execution thereof committed to his Officers and Deputies And nevertheles all is Christes still Christ hath a Kingdome Commissive It is the Kings authoritie which the Deputie of IrelaÌ„d executeth And may it not be Christes power and governement which his Ministers and Deputies on earth do execute Yea certainly Which this D. acknowledged before saying it may bee called the kingdome of heaven and of Christ. Yet hee doth further strive against the truth in this cause making the Minister the Maister of a familie and the Magistrate to be Gods ordinance alike Which surely never any sound Divine would say If we looke but to Moses law the falsitie heereof is soone seene Every Ministerie in the Iewes Church must have expresse and particular institution from God but naturall reason Humane contractes were sufficient to institute both the other And is not the case so with vs now also vnder the Gospell Yeas truly Wherefore these in deed are nowe Gods ordinances but not alike He concludeth that the Ministers may not arrogat any part of Christes honor and power as incident to their calling or function They may take to them the execution of that which to ordaine is only Christs right That power of his which hee hath in his word committed to them and as the D. speaketh trusted them with they may take to them viz. the Keyes and Mysteries of the kingdome of heaven Which they arrogate not but it is their right to take vse the same as Christ himselfe hath specially appointed From this dissolut opinion aforesaid and so derogatorie to the holy Offices of Christ it floweth that this D. teacheth “ Pag. 339. 348. the peoples interest in Church-governement standeth only vpon the groundes of reason and nature and is derived from the rules of Christian equitie and societie And that this is both lawfull and †Pag. 334. much to be commended And yet also that “ Pag. 349. the people may willingly forsake and worthily loose the right which they had Nay more hee holdeth the Apostolike and †Pag. 299. 300. Divine forme of Church-governement by sole governing Bishops as hee maintaineth Timotihe and Titus and the Angell of Ephesus c. to have ben may give place on occasion to those forenamed grounds of reason and nature “ Pag. 348. 334. humane governement Thus he by denying the peoples consent to be †Pag. 368. essentiall in the choice of their Pastors doth indeed make nothing essentiall to them For that which is Essentiall must evermore be had to the true being of any thing it can never be altered nor absent from it as before “ Pag. 8â— I have also noted These our adversaries say our assertions are raw and vndigested fancies but what raw and vndigested yea irreligious assertions they doe holde and maintaine it maketh me afraid even to thinke of it It shall not bee amisse to observe somewhat contrarie to their opinions out of some both of the Ancient and the late writers Cyprian noteth this in generall as an odious error in the haeretike Novatian though he aime at an other point in particular But in generall this which they holde Cyprian maketh noe lesse then haereticall in him His words are “ Cypr Epist 4.2 Ille post Dei traditionem humanam conatur Ecclesiam facere This man letting go Gods ordinance indeavorâ—th to make a Humane Church Againe touching the order and forme of the Church and administration thereof hee in another place flyeth only to Christ and his word for authoritie saith “ Epist 1.8 Quisquis alibi collegerit spargit Adulterum est impium est SacrileguÌ„ est quodâ—unque humano furoâ—e instituitur vt dispositio divina violetur Procul ab huiusmodi hominum contagione discedite Whosoever gathereth elswhere he scattereth It is adulterous it is impious it is sacrilegious whatsoever is instituted by mens madnes that Gods order should be violated Depart far away from the infectioÌ„ of such meÌ„ And a litle after Nemo vos frat res errare â Domi. viâ faciat Nemo vos Christianos ab EvaÌ„gelio Christi rapiat Brethren let no man cause you to erre from the Lords way Let no man pull you Christians from Christes Gospell Of the church coÌ„stitution and order againe hee saith †De Vnitat Eccles. Verbis Christi insistere quaecunque docuit feat discere facere debemus Crederese in Christum quomodo dicit qui non facere quod Christus facere praecepit Wee ought to insist in Christes wordes whatsoever he taught did we must learne and do How can one say hee beleeveth in Christ who doth not that which Christ commandeth Thus in the order constitution and governement of Christes Church this holy man of God layeth a necessity on vs to cleave alwayes to that which is in Christes Testament not to Humane reason nor to Civill disposition at any time Which our adversaries do “ Perp. gov pag. 339. Def. 2.73 teach and maintaine to be lawfull Augustine also of the visible Churches constitution beside that †Pag. 138.139 above cited in him elswhere writeth thus “ August contra Crescon Gram. 1.33 Ecclesiam sine vlla ambiguitate sancta Scriptura demonstrat †Ibi quaeramus Ecclesiam â— De Vnit. Eccles. cap. 3. ibi discutiamus causam nostram Nâ—lo humanis documentis sed divinis oraculis sanctaÌ„ Ecclesiam demonstrari The holy Scripture demonstrateth the Church without any doubt There let vs seeke the Church there let vs try our cause I cannot abide that the holy Church should be shewed by mens doctrines but by the Divine Oracles And in that sense Ierome calleth Christs Visible Church as it is vnder outward governement “ Hieron dâ— 7. Ordin Eccles Fabrica Deâ— a Frame which God him selfe hath builâ— Thus these Ancientes With whom heerein the godly learned of late do consent also Zuinglius said enough “ Pag. 101.102.104 before Calvin to Cardinall Sadolet saith †Calvin ad Sad. Non te adeo pracisè vrgebo vt revocem ad illam
strangers voice they will flee from Ioh. 10.27.3 But they can not thus discerne and try vnles they may reiect their Teachers being false and erroneous And if they may reiect they may chose Yet alwayes as I said in the best maner they can Some heere obiect and say The people in deed have power and right but they have not meanes thus to do wheÌ„ they want Ministers I answer if they have power froÌ„ whom have they it It wil be said from God If the people have power from God then they have meanes also Otherwise God giveth power in vaine But that is absurd c false that God giveth any power in vaine or such as can not be acted If God intend an end as he doth in giving all power then sure hee intendeth Meanes also to effect the said end And so a Church wanting Ministers but having power from GOD hath Meanes also to make Ministers and so likewise to do everie other Ecclesiasticall action They are not vtterly altogeather destitute of iust and lawfull meanes to performe any such action for their owne vse in the feare of God That is the best meanes they have is sufficient wheÌ„ they have not such as they would and should have otherwise So then this was the answer which the said Tilenus gave to that FreÌ„ch Lord. But in deed this is not only Tilenus answer in this matter for it hath ben the coÌ„mon defence of all sound Protestantes alwayes when they be opposed touching their Ministerie Which the common consent of all our Attestators before cited See our very Adversaries beeren Above pa. 73. 74. c. and many other maketh manifest If any have given other answeres yet only this hath ben the firme sure anchre to trust to Other answeres are all to weake vncertain this only is cleere and constant Though “ Perpe gov Pag. 335. D. Bilson do vniustly deny it A most certain deduction of this power and right of the people from Christes ordinance in the Gospell I have plainly shewed before in the sixt Chapter Also the benefit and fruit of this defence we see in all Churches abroad namely it is evident in those of France Against which the learnedst of the Papistes have nothing soundly to reply So that the Churches there flourish and increase mightily blessed bee God Who but for this answer would certainly both then when Tilenus so did write before and since have ben much troubled and staggered and no lesse then shamed As many are now with vs in England who do shunne and despise this answer Whereby I see that to lay against the Papistes their other errors before we have cleered the lawfulnes of our Ministerie is in deed vnseasonable and little availeable For if we be shamed in the eyes of vnderstanding people or have not certainly what to hold stand to when we be vrged to make good the Calling and lawfulnes of our Ministerie Papistes will easily with distinctions and subtile answeres make a faire shew in reconciling other matters betweene vs in controversie to Gods worde though I graunt they be grosse When we are shamed in so maine a point as the Calling of our Ministers is in no other matter afterward we shall neither can we have good successe But our adversaries of the Protestantes in Englande what say they to this How defend they the Calling of our Ministers against the Papistes D. Bilson denyeth vehemently that “ Perpet gov pag. 335. 368. the peoples consent is essentiall in the making of any Ministers I desire him then to tell vs what is essentiall in it There is no question but somewhat is The very question is Who have power essentially to make Ministers Then what is it which is essentiall in making a Minister If the peoples consent be not surely I know not what els they will assigne to be And yet as I said somewhat must be Wherefore I conceave the peoples consent may be said to be essentiall by Gods word in the making of a Minister vnder the Gospell because no other thing els can be assigned by Protestants as Essentiall therein The common answer in a maner of all men is that in England our Diocesan and Provincial Bishops do give our Ministers their Calling and Office Heere I demande is this Essentiall in the Calling of our Ministers or is it not I thinke few advisedly will saye it is Essentiall For whatsoever is Essentiall any where the same is essentiall every where as “ Pag. 81. before I have observed And so they must deny the true Essence of Ministerie in the forraigne reformed Churches where they have no such Bishops at all where at first they had no Minister at all Therefore they will not say I thinke I know they can not that the Ordination by Bishops is Essentiall to Christes Ministerie vnder the Gospell Yet againe if they say not so they answer the Papist nothing they satisfie not the question So that what they will resolve on in this point Surely no man can well tell Wherefore heere the craftie Priestes and Iesuites among vs will perswade vehemently their disciples that they have got the victorie Seeing wee can not affirme whence our Ministerie is essentially derived given vs. In the end I doubt not the coÌ„mon defence will be this that our said Bishops by their sole authoritie and power do essentially give the Calling of all our Ministerie And that from Archb. Cranmer Ridley our first Protestant Bishops they have stil so done Let what inconvenience soever follow thereof Be it then so Yet even they likewise must have it given to them They viz. those our first Bishops must have it derived vnto them froÌ„ others From whom had they their authoritie and power Briefly it will bee answered they had it given them from the Bishop and Church of Rome And that in deed is the truth the Pope is he who made Archb. Cranmer and Ridley c. such Bishops They had no other Ordination since And from them all the rest of our Ministers have had their Ordination to this day And so the effect of all is that our whole Ministerie in England successively and derivatively cometh from the Pope See the Supplication for Toleration pa. â— Doct. Downame Doct. Bilson and all that maintaine the Church state in England will thus answer But O miserable defence wofull vnto vs. Which in deed though it be false yet it is such as the Papâ—sâ—es desire and do triumph in It is false two wayes First whatsoever the Church of Rome did give to Archbi Cranmer c. that wholy they tooke away againe namely when he fel from them For then they both deposed him and excommunicated him So that they left him no whit of that power function so much as lay in them which they had given him But questionles if they could give it they could take it away Wherefore so soone as hee was ours being thus
if our proofes stand or subvertion if your answere be good For if this faile well may Bishops claine their authoritie by the custome of the Church by any divine precept expressed in the Scriptures they can not Saith hee so Let vs see then howe soundly this will stand But first I desire him to remember if it happen that this his proofe out of the Scripâ—â—â—◠〈◊〉 subverted and then he be forced to flie to the Churches Custom for succour that himselfe hath ruined cast downe and defaced that weake hold all ready So that there he can have no reliefe Now then to his proofes out of scripture that Titus Timothie were Bishops He frameth 4. Arguments for it 1. That power to ordaine sit Ministers to convent discharge vnsit prescribed to Titus Timothie was no power proper to Evangelists Wee grant this wholy even the Conclusion It is another point and nothing against vs. The Conclusion of his 2. argument is like to the former therefore we grant it also For this proveth not that Timothie or Titus were proper Bishops which is the question Yet in the Minor where hee saith that Presbyteries claime this power comitted to Timothie Tite even to ordain examine censure deprive Pastors I deny this to bee true Presbyteries claime not this power Neither have they it properly originally as Bucer shewed “ Pag 33. before Properly and originally the whole Church hath this power the Presbyterie hath only the authoritie of administring the same that in the name of the whole Church as Piscator and Vâ—sinus †Pag. 46. â—1 before do expresse And further I answer by that distinction above noted This power of ordayning examining censuring c. committed to Timothie and Titus the Presbyterie in deed hath and executeth Materially but not Formally Which maketh his Minor Proposition to bee false most cleerely His 3. argument is concluded in no forme But where he “ Perp. gov Pag. 391. saith The precepts of Ordayning and Censuring are delivered to Timothie and Titus and to those that should succeed them vnto the end of the world Ergo Timothies power function in this behalfe must bee perpetuall This is true likewise Materially but not Formally Their Successors are to execute the same in deed alwayes as touching the material actions Those things must be done but vnder divers formes of Ministeries or maners of administration Heere Timothie and Titus being properly Evangelistes did these actions vnder the forme of an Evangelisticall Ministerie Sometime Apostles did the same actions but vnder the forme of an Apostolicall Ministerie After them Bishops did the same actions also but vnder the forme of a proper Bishops office c. Wherefore the perpetuitie of these actions materially which Timothie and Titus did proveth not the Office and Ministerie of Timothie and Titus formally to bee perpetuall This is a very weake conclusion and very crooked His 4. argument is The whole Church of Christ since the Apostles times without exception hath so constred the Apostles wordes to Timothie and Titus touching their governement And hee names Eusebius Ierome Ambrose c. D. Rainolds answereth Hart the Priest Confer pag. 267. I perceave the Pope must fetch his Supremacie from Earth and not from Heaven You are fallen from Scripture to Eusebius Even so our adversaries when all is done they must fetch the Diocesan L. Bishops Office from earth and not from heaven They fall from Scripture to Eusebius c. And yet not Eusebius not the rest do conster those preceptes to Timothie and Titus as belonging only to Bishops much “ See before pag. â—24 â—â—5 lesse did the whole Church of Christ since the Apostles times without exception This is a strange Hyperbole But these writers acknowledged Timothie and Titus to have ben Bishops Nay not Diocesan L. Bishops they neither acknowledged nor knew any such in their times as before hath ben shewed Yet only of these our question is Againe they held Timothie Titus not to be Bishops at all properly but in a generall sense as “ Pag. 230. 238. before I observed If they meant otherwise they missed the truth saith D. Rainolds Conf. p. 267 Howbeit They suffred none but Bishops either to ordaine or degrade Presbyters Yet as I said before not absolutly with out the peoples consent as our L. Bishops do If any among them inclined to neglect the people herein they did contrary to the Canons of those times Lastly it is true these ancients to much rested on Custome Counsaills of men and humane policie in setting the Church governemeÌ„t they as Ierome inclined to much to approve Diocesan Provinciall and Patriarchall Bishops with too absolute power only grounding vpon the Custome of the Church though they knew they wanted Divine disposition Whence afterward Antichrist easily sprang vp Now then I pray with what colour can Doct. Bilson from those preceptes to Timothie and Titus plead for our Diocesan and Provinciall L. Bishops whom they nothing concerne and say The wordes be singular the charge is vehement the parties were Bishops * Perp. gov pag. 299. And how vainly doth he insult without reason charging vs that “ Pag. 30â— Fire will better agree with water then we with our selves Which is his familiar custome not ours After him let vs see what D. Downame saith for Timothie and Titus Bishoprikes Truly in effect he saith nothing more for he followeth D. Bilson most diligently Yet hee hath a Cart-load of words about this point which he knoweth well to bee his only refuge Wherein yet hee can finde no helpe First I will examine the pith of his discourse and theÌ„ I will set downe reasons of mine owne proving souÌ„dly that Timothie Titus were not proper Bishops First he saith “ Def. 4. p. 75 It is presupposed in the Epistles to Timothie and Titus that the Apostle committed to them Bishoply authoritie It is vntrue this is not presupposed Then the Epistles bee the very patternes and precedents of Bishoply function c Well what then Then Timothie and Titus were Bishops I deny this consequence There is no truth in this And T.C. answer to D. Whitgifts like argument is sounde and good though this great Logician calleth it “ Pag. 76. sleight and frivolous The directions to Timothie and Titus about Ordination and iurisdiction being not “ Pag. 77. peculiar to Bishops as hee vntruly addeth in the end For him selfe giveth this power and that rightly to other Christians †Pag. 99. in case of necessitie and the truth giveth it to Apostles and Evangelists the “ Eph 4.11 Superiors of Bishops His reason * Pag. 77. these are perpetuall directions is an excellent reason to prove that this power is indeed essentially seated by Christ in the Congregation of the people The power of Ecclesiasticall governement essenâ—ially in the people For it is certain that such Christian Congregations only are perpetuall Apostles
should by a Congregation signifye either Vniversall or Provinciall or Diocesan Church is a most false vnlikely conceit Can any of these bee one Visible Congregation in the singular nomber He alleageth as hee thinketh textes for his pupose Matt. 16. Ephe. 1. and 5. Which surely may well yea they are to bee vnderstood of a Visible Congregation viz. indefinitly taken See heereof the Divine beginning and institution of Christes Visible Church Argum. 26. 23. Of Mai. Beza “ Def. 4.166 hee affirmeth that hee wished with all his heart for the Diocesan Bishops governemēt in Geneva Which is as true as that which the Iesuits blazed abroad how Beza before his death recanted his religion Beza lived to cōvince the Iesuits of vntruth to their faces If hee were now alive he would do the like to this Doct. and those other of whō he saith hee heard it The like audacitie is in that his report that the most learned iudicious Divines in France and Geneva could bee content that Diocesan Bb. governement were renewed among them The most learned in France and Geneva Verily as they were who renewed it Scotland of late Most learned and most iudicious were they Laus proprio sordescit in ore And I feare rather that knowen parable to be heerein verifyed When the trees would have a King the Olive Figtree and Vine refusing the Bramble tooke it on him and said to the trees †Iudg. 9.15 Come put your trust vnder my shadow When all shiftes faile the adversaries will calumniate vs as not dutifull to the King and Civil governement Which though D. Downame saith “ Def. 1.45 hee will not dispute yet he maliciously insinuateth As touching dutifull affection to the Kings person none can say more if he list then D. Downame him selfe in my particular Yea what wordes I spake whē he held his peace to a Noble Lord of Scotl. An. 1601. when neither of vs durst be seene nor heard abroad for feare of whom Verily of those who were his best friends since If I was thē so dutifully animated toward the K. when we only hoped for his Maiestie God forbid I should bee lesse now when we have him Being so maligned traduced as I am I could not but speake of this Touching our duty generally to his Maiesties authoritie and place the evidence of reason sense plead for vs. Tertull. ad Scapul We acknowledge with Tertullian that he is Solo Deo minor Lesse then God only In Church governement we impeach not his Soveraigtie neither in matter nor manner Therefore no way at all The matter is only about Ezcommunication and Making of Ministers and such like things Of the essentiall forme whereof Christ only is institutor his Ecclesiasticall servantes bee the Ministers The King is neither Author nor Minister Vnto this I suppose all agree For the maner Seeing we holde each whole Church in the greatest extent can be no mo ordinarie Congregations then one how can these either by their comming togeather or by their consenting in any Spirituall busines only for them selves I say how can these impeach the Kings power one haire His Supreme Vniversall overseeing and ordering them and all others yea his chastising them when they do any thing amisse how can it be let how can it be hindered by such a handfull And because hee must vse Substitute Rulers in his general overseeing the Churches of his Dominions we frō our hearts do honor them also and submit to them as to Gods Lieutenants in their severall places Only we testifie that if the Kings power be committed to any Ecclesiasticall person especially Civill coactive power it draweth with it both a breach of Christes ordinance who said to such Ministers “ Luc. 22.25 Math. 20.25 2. Chro. 19.11 You shall not be so and also a torture to Christian subiects cōsciences Wherefore we desire of God that the King would be pleased to appoint as Ichosaphat did a Zebadiah to bee generall Governor vnder him in Church causes so far as it pertaineth to the King to deale in them and as King Henry 8. a L. Cromwell his Vicegerent in rebus Ecclesiasticis and as his Maiestie him selfe did as I have heard in Scotland before hee came among vs. Which may be far more easily performed with inferior subordinate Officers vnder them also for this purpose in every place in a Monarchie then in any Popular or Aristocraticall Cōmon wealth Vnitie how And verily this is it and not a Diocesan Bishop which would bring great vnitie and that according to God If D. Downame wil vrge which he grateth vpon in this said †Def. 1.45 pag. 45. that the Churches indepēdent authoritie standeth not with the Kings Supremacie in causes Ecclesiasticall and that which els where wee say viz. nothing may be obtruded on the Church against their willes I answer indeed every Churches power is independent spiritually and immediat vnder Christ our meaning therefore is that by ptetended Spirituall authoritie Chap. 9. nothing may be obtruded imposed on any true Church against their willes But we grant that Civill Magistrates may and sometime ought to impose good things on a true Church against their willes if they stifly erre as somtime they may And me thinks Doct. Downame also should bee of this minde with vs. This is thus answered often before pag. 115. c. Hitherto our answer to some of our Adversaries chiefest obiections and evill wordes And so I draw to an end CHAP. IX A short advertisement to the vpright hearted and Christian Reader touching this Writing Cause YET first I desire the Christian Reader to be advertised of a few things pertayning to this Cause Seavē things I intreat him to take notice of First how great a blame and shame it is to D. Downame a principall Logician to treate so largely as in his Sermon defenc he hath done concerning the Nature Forme and Constitution of Christs true Visible Church and yet in all this not once to define the same Which defect of D. Bilson also is to be noted in his perpetuall governement of the Church Surely this one matter viz. a Definition of Christes true Visible Church vnder the Gospell well performed would have saved a great deale of paines and trouble would have prevēted much error And thus it is wiselie taught by Cicero that “ Cicer. Offic. 1. all purposes reasonable ought to be begū with a Definitiō of the matter in band For the avoyding therefore of this imputation I have in †The Divine beginning institution of Christs Visible Church another Treatise defined the said Visible Church of Christ Which I did and rested not on some others who have Defined the Church heertofor because I desired to distinguish cleerly betweene the Iewish Church and the Christian which verily differ not in Accidentes alone but in kinde of governement and in essentiall constitution The Iewish Christian Church
is before noted Whence it is that Doct. Downame heere saith truly the succession of their owne Clergie fayling and the helpe of others wanting the right is devolved to the whole body of the Church If the Doctor will reply say that this power and right is not essentially in the whole Congregation alwayes nor at all times but sometimes only that is in the case of necessitie aforesaid I answer then the D. folly and want of true reason will be manifest to all men For what soever is essentiall to any thing at sometime is essentiall to the same alwayes and evermore That which is essentiall once is essentiall still So that if the Congregations power right to consent in making of Ministers in Censures be essentiall at sometime as he acknowledgeth it is then certainly it is essentiall therein at all times and evermore The truth heereof can never be denyed And hence it is that Luther saieth If Titus would not Luth. de Ministr Eccles instit propâ— finem the Congregation might ordaine Ministers to them selves And of Excommunication Zuinglius saith “ Artic. 31. Non quod solus Episcopus hac facere debeat quisque hoc â—â—â—est si Episcopus fuerit negligens Any man may do this if the Bishop be negligent Hee meaneth any Man appointed by the Church may do it In which respect also that senteÌ„ce of Epiphanius that †Epiph. haereâ—â— 75. Biâ—â—ops can beget Fathers to the Church but Presbyters can not is to be refused as vntrue and erroneous For before wee have seene that only the CoÌ„gregation doth beget Fathers that is maketh Ministers essentially the Bishop doth it but instrumentally and Ministerially And so a Presbyter may do it as well as he whom they name a Bishop yea any other also may do it as Luther and Zuinglius before affirme when the Church imployeth them to that vsâ— Our two Doctors before cited even aâ— the Papistes also do hold strongly with those wordes of “ â—aereâ— 75. Epephanius to the great preiudice of the Gospel But their bare opinions names are nothing to our cleere and certain reason for the contrarie before set downe Neither are the bare opinions and naked names of any other men whosoever any better worth Seventhly 〈◊〉 last of all hence it foloweth so that it can not bee denyed that seeing thâ— whole CoÌ„gregation doth always give the Calling of ordinary Ministers essentially therfore the whole Congregation ought alwayes of necessitie tâ— give their free consent to their Minister at least so farre foorth that nonâ— bee imposed on them whether they will or no. The like also is to bee saiâ— of their power in iurisdiction And these pointes wee must imagine that they are acknowledged and held by D. Downame or surely that hee ought to acknowledge them all seeing by force of true reason they al do follow from those his wordes which he affirmeth holdeth as before I have declared Now this is all that wee professe touching the pleoples right tâ— Church government For we deniâ— not but in the ordinarie peaceable and right state of the Church when al things are caried well the chief diâ—ection sway of the whole government belongeth to the Bishop or Paâ—tor the people beeing on their part â—o hearken to their Teacher to folâ—ow their Guide obediently dutieâ—ully D. Down Deâ—â— 1.41 Their power to iudge and to provide otherwise for themselves being wheÌ„ they see their Guides to faile Which seeing it is his minde also set downe in his owne words before reâ—earsed I have truly affirmed that â—ouching our present cause even this Doctor agreeth with vs sometime in â—ull effect by good consequence of â—eason from his expresse wordes Though at other times he do as some report Cicero said to Salust “ Orat. 〈◊〉 Cicer. 〈◊〉 Salust Aliud stans â—â—â—â—d sedens de repub sentis Of the common â—ealth thou thinkest one thing standing another sitting Of Christes Visible Church and the governement thereof verily our Doctor doth likewise CHAPTER VII Chap. 7. Consequences of greatest importance following vpon the peoples free coÌ„sent in their Church governement inconveniences in Religion not sufferable following from the contrary AFter the forerehearsed Witnesses for this Doctrine we wil now shewe certain cleere and necessarie Consequences which follow from the same also some true and great Inconveniences to faith and godly life and to Civill authoritie such as are not to be tolerated which yet cannot be avoyded where men professing to be Christians imbrace not this point Of all fortes I wil heere observe eight great and waightie Consequentes heerevpon First this being receaved as the Ordinance of Christ and the practise of the Apostles 1. CoÌ„sequent that the Church governement ought to be alwayes with the peoples free consent it followeth that every Church is only “ As is also shewed in the Declaration pag. 12. 13. 14. 35. one ordinarie Congregation and not any proper Diocesan or Provinciall Church or larger Vnderstanding alwayes the peoples free consent to be orderly conveniently taken and practised so as Christ intendeth that †1. Cor. 14.40 every thing should bee done in his Church For where the peoples free consent is orderly and conveniently practised alwayes in the Church governement there the Body of the Church can not be so large as a Diocese much lesse as a Province or Nation and least of all so large as a Vniversall Church Seeing all this people can not possibly by any meanes give their free consent in the ordinarie Church-governement neither can any person take it of all them iustly orderly and conveniently This to say the truth is not possible For in such a state when onely some maine partes of the Church governement are exercised it will bee alwayes with much defect and also with great disturbance and tumult oftentimes I say where it is extended so largely so wide with concurrence of such multitudes of people This is true first in very reason and withall often experience hath shewed it in former times vnder most Christian carefull Princes after the Nicen Councill as at Alexandria at Antioch at Rome at Constantinople and in infinite places mo a great part whereof the “ Euseâ— Socrat. Zozomeâ— Theodoret. Evagrius Stories doe record In which Church actions though done with to inconvenient libertie of the people yet the greatest part of the people whoÌ„ the effect of those businesses reached vnto were absent and so wanted their right those which were present were full of confusion and tumult neither could it be otherwise But God is the God of equitie of order and of peace Wherefore this disorder can nor be fit for Gods Church And so neither can a Diocesan circuit Râ—as for reform p. 26.27 or larger in which this disorder wil arise necessarilie if all that people togeather have their free consent in their Church-governement Which the whole