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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A14614	The copies of certaine letters vvhich haue passed betweene Spaine and England in matter of religion Concerning the generall motiues to the Romane obedience. Betweene Master Iames Wadesworth, a late pensioner of the holy Inquisition in Siuill, and W. Bedell a minister of the Gospell of Iesus Christ in Suffolke.	Wadsworth, James, 1572?-1623.; Bedell, William, 1571-1642. aut; Hall, Joseph, 1574-1656.	1624 (1624)	STC 24925; ESTC S119341	112,807	174

lesser Orders and Subdeaconship according to the Master of the Sentences were instituted by the Church 3. The Deacons instituted by the Apostles Act. 6. were not Deacons of the Altar but of the Tables Widdowes 4. In Deaconship there seemes to be no certain forme for according to the old Pontificals the laying of hands vpon the Deacon hath no certaine forme of words but that prayer Emitte q●aesumus in eos S. Sauctum which according to the new Pontificals is to be said after the imposition of hands For the giuing of the Booke of the Gospels hath indeede a forme of words but that impresseth not the Character for before any Gospell was written the Apostles ordained Deacons by imposition of hands 5. In the Subdeaconship also there is no Pontificall which hath not the matter without forme viz. the deliuery of the emptie Chalice c. These things with more which hee there sets downe he would haue to serue to the instruction of the learned touching the vncertaintie of this whole matter to ●each men to be wise to sobrietie that is euery man to be content with the accustomed Pontificall of the Church wherein he is ordained And if ought be omitted of those things which be added out of the new Pontificals as for example that the Booke of the Epistles was not giuen with those words Take authoritie to reade the Epistles as well for the quicke as the dead there is no neede of supplying this omission by a new ordination for such new additions make no new law Learne then of your owne Caietane that the new additions of deliuery of the Chalice with wine and Paten with Hosts and authoritie to offer sacrifice for the quick and dead make no new Law Learn to be content with the Pontificall of the Church wherein you were ordained Wherein first is verbatim all that which your Pontificals had well taken out of the holy words of our Sauiour Accipe Spiritum Sanctum quorum remisseris peccata remittuntur eis quorum retinueris retenta sunt Which me thinkes you should rather account to containe the essentiall forme of Priesthood then the former both because they are Christs owne words and ioyned with that ceremonie of laying on hands which anciently denominated this whole action and do expresse the worthiest and principallest part of your Commission which the Apostle cals the Ministry of reconciliation 2 Cor. 5. 18. 19. Then because this office is not onely deputed to consecrate the Lords body but also to preach baptize which in your Pontificall is wholly omitted in a larger and more conuenient forme is added out of Saint Paul 1 Cor. 4. 1. and be thou a faithfull dispenser of the word of God and of his holy Sacraments In the name of the Father c. As to that you adde that we offer no sacrifice for the quicke and dead and therefore well may be called Ministers as all lay men are but are no Priests I haue met with sundry that pull this roape as strongly the other way and affirme that because by the very forme of your ordination you are appointed Sacrificers for the quicke and dead well may ye be Masse-Priests as ye are called but Ministers of the New Testament after S. Pauls phrase ye are none For that office stands principally in preaching the word whereof in your ordination there is no word said And as little there is in Scrip●ure of your sacrifice which makes Christ not to be a Priest after the order of Melchisedech c. with much more to this purpose Where my defence for your Ministrie hath beene this that the forme Receiue the holy Ghost whose sinnes ye remit they are remitted c. doth sufficiently comprehend the authoritie of preaching the Gospell Vse you the same equitie toward vs and tell those hot spirits among you that stand so much vpon formalities of words that to be a dispenser of the word of God and his holy Sacraments is all the dutie of Priesthood And to you I adde further that if you consider well the words of the Master of the Sentences which I vouched before how that which is consecrated of the Priest is called a Sacrifice and oblation because it is a memoriall and representation of the true sacrifice and holy offering made on the altar of the Crosse and ioyne there to that of the Apostle that by that one offering Christ hath perfected for euer them that are sanctified and as he saith in another place through that bloud of his Crosse reconciled vnto God all things whether in earth or in heauen you shall perceiue that we do offer sacrifice for the quick and dead remembring representing mystically offering that sole Sacrifice for the quicke and dead by the which all their fins are meritoriously expiated and desiring that by the same wee and all the Church may obtaine remission of sinnes and all other benefits of Christs passion To the Epilogue therefore of this your last motiue I say in short Sith we haue no neede of Subdeaconship more then the Churches in the Apostles times in truth those whom wee call Clerkes and Sextens performe what is necessarie in this behalfe Sith we haue Canonicall Bishops and lawfull succession Sith we neither want due intention to depute men to Ecclesiasticall functions nor matter or forme in giuing Priesthood deriuing from no man or woman the authoritie of ordination but from Christ the head of he Church yee haue alleadged no sufficient cause why we should not haue true Pastors and consequently a true Church in England CHAP. XII Of the Conclusion Master Waddesworths agonies and protestation c. YEt by these you say and many other arguments you were resolued in your vnderstanding to the contrary It may well be that your vnderstanding out of it owne heedlesse haste as that of our first Parents while it was at the perfectest was induced into errour by resoluing too soone out of seeming arguments and granting too forward assent For surely these which you haue mentioned could not conuince it if it would haue taken the paines to examine them throughly or had the patience to giue vnpartiall hearing to the motiues on the other side Bu● as if you triumphed in your owne conquest and captiuitie you adde that which passeth yet all that hitherto you haue set downe viz. That the Church of Rome was and is the onely true Church because it alone is Ancient Catholike and Apostolike hauing succession vnitie and visibilitie in all ages and places Is it onely ancient To omit Hierusalem are not that of Antioch where the Disciples were first called Christians and Alexandria Ephesus Corinth and the rest mentioned in the Scriptures ancient also and of Antioch ancienter then Rome Is it Catholike and Apostolike onely Doe not these and manie more hold the Catholike faith receiued from the Apostles as well as the Church of Rome For that it should be the Vniuersall Church is all one as yee would say the part is the

become no true Church to wit when it shall so erre damnably But then it followes not There is now no saluation in it and therefore come out of it now When you shew that I shall account you haue done wisely to goe out of it Shew that in anie one point and take me with you In the meane while for my part I shall sooner trust that chapman that shall say to me Loe here is a perfect yard I will measure as truely as I can and when I haue done take the yard and measure it your selfe then him that shall say here is thus much yee shall not neede to measure it but take it on my word yea though one of his Apprentices should stand by and say he could not deceiue mee though hee would as Benedictus a Benedictus tels the present Pope Volens nolens errare non potes Where you relate your endeauour to defend the Church of England and tell of the Puritanes reiecting those Arguments you could vse from the authoritie of the Church and of the ancient Doctors interpreting Scriptures against them flying to their owne arrogant spirit I cannot excuse them for the former nor subscribe to your accusation in the latter Perhaps you haue met with some more fanaticall Brownists or Anadaptists whom here you call Puritans But these that are commonly so called which differ from the Church of England about Church gouernment and ceremonies onely giue indeede to little to the authoritie of men how holy learned or ancient soeuer Which is their fault and their great fault especially in matters of this nature yet they flye not to their owne spirit as you charge them That which you adde that you perceiued the most Protestants did frame the like euasions when you came to answere the Arguments against them on the other side when you shall shew this in particulars I shall beleeue it In the meane while I beleeue you thought so for commonly mediocrities are aggrauated with the hatred slandered with the names of both extreames But in the question betweene the Popish faction and vs you might easily haue discerned why the argument from bare authoritie is not of such validitie For ceremonies and matters of order may be ordered by wise men are not the worse but the better if they be ancient yea if they be common to vs with Rome which Puritans will by no meanes allow In doctrin if holy men yea if an Angell from heauen shall innouate any thing wee are not to admit it Now the controuersies betweene the Romanists and vs are most about doctrine and they exceede as much in extolling the authoritie of the ancients in their priuate opinions and incommodious and strained speeches as the Puritans in depressing them We hold the meane and giue as much to the authoritie and testimonies of the Fathers as may stand with the truth of holy Scriptures and as themselues deferre to the writing of others or require to be giuen to their owne Next you tell of your following their opinion who would make the Church of England and the Church of Rome still to be all one in Essentiall points and the differences to be accidentall Confessing the Church of Rome to be a true Church though sicke or corrupted and the Protestants to be derined from it and reformed This opinion is not onely as you write fauoured of many great Schollers in England but is the common opinion of all the best Diuines of the reformed Churches that are or haue beene in the world as I shewed in part of another worke which as I remember you had a sight of Wherein yet I feare you mistake the tearme accidentall which doth no● import that our differences are but sleight and of small confideration but that all those opinions and abuses which we reforme and cut off are not of the Faith but superfluous and ●oraine yea hurtfull and noisome to it as the weedes are to the corne which ouer-grow and choake it And to follow this similitude the state of the Church vnder the Romane obedience and that part which is reformed is like a field ouergrowne all with weedes thistles tares cockle some part whereof is weeded and clensed some part remaines as it was before which makes such a difference to the view as if it were not the same corne But being better considered it will be found all the difference is from the weedes which remaine there and here are taken away Yet neither here perfectly nor all where a like but ac●ording to the industrie of our weeders or conueniencie of the worke with care of the safetie of the good corne By this Parable you may see what is to be hoped of your labour to reconcile most of our particular controuersies For although I doubt not but in some it may be performed where the difference is rather verball then reall and in the manner of teaching rather then in the substance of doctrine And if moderate men had the matter in handling the flame of contention in a great many more might be troden downe and slaked suppose the sparkes not all extinct yet in some other it is as possible to make the weede and corne-friends as your and our opinions where there is none other remedy but that of our Sauiour Euery plant that my heauenly Father hath not planted shall be rooted out Neither doth this impossibilitie arise more out of the nature of the things then the affection of the persons For the Pope and the Court of Rome which are those that domineere on that side doe no lesse out of the feare of their owne ruine deadly detest all reformation then the reformed out of their present view and former feeling the tyrannie of the Papacie which they see doth excommunicate and put to cruell death all that are of this way And which is a prodigious thing where they tolerate the blasphemous and professed enemies of Christ euen with allowance of the publike exercise of their Religion there doe they burne men professing Christs religion according to the ancient and common rule thereof with that vprightnesse of conscience that if they had as many liues as there be Articles thereof they would giue them all rather then renounce any of them As for the Protestants making the Pope Antichrist I know it is a point that inrageth much at Rome But if the Apostle Saint Paul if Saint Iohn in the Reuelation describe Antichrist so as they that doe but looke vpon the Pope well must be forced to say as the people did of the blinde man in the Gospell some this is ●e others he is very like him if himselfe and his flatterers doe and speake such things as if all others should hold their peace doe in a sort proclaime I am he what can the Protestants doe with the matter I will take the liberty here to relate to you what I saw while I was in Venice the rather because it is not impertinent to our present purpose And though perhaps you may

to bee an euasion of Protestants THe first whereof is the dislike of the Protestants euasion as you call it by the inuisibilitie of their Church Giue mee leaue here to tell you plainly yee seeme to mee not to vnderstand the Protestants doctrine in this point Else yee would haue spared all that The Catholike Church must euer be visible as a Citie set on a hill otherwise how should shee teach her children conuert Pagans dispence Sacraments All this is yeelded with both hands The Congregations of which the Catholike Church doth consist are visible But the promise made to this Church of victory against the gates of hell the titles of the house of God the base and piller of Truth an allusion as I take it to the bases and pillers that held vp the veile or curtaines in the Tabernacle the body of Christ his Doue his vndefiled are not verified of this Church in the whole visible bulke of it but in those that are called according to Gods purpose giuen to Christ and kept by him to bee raised vp to life at the last day This doctrine is Saint Augustines in many place● which it would bee too tedious to set downe at large In his third booke De doctrina Christiana among the rules of Tychonius there is one which hee corrects a little for the tearmes De Domini corpore bipertito which he saith ought not to haue beene called so for in truth that is not the Lords body which shal not be with him for euer but he should haue said of the Lords true body and mixt or true and fained or some such thing Because not onely for euer but euen now hypocrites are not to be said to be with him though they seeme to be in his Church Consider those resemblances taken out of the holy Scripture wherein that godly Father is frequent of chaffe and wheat in the Lords floore of good and bad fishes in the net of spots and light in the Moone Of the Church carnall and spirituall of the wicked multitudes of the Church yet not to be accounted in the Church Of the lilly and the thornes those that are marked which mourne for the sinnes of Gods people and the rest which perish which yet beare his Sacraments Consider the last Chapter of the booke De Vnitate Ecclesiae and that large Treatise which he hath of that matter Epist. 48. The place is long which deserues to bee read for the obiection of the Vniuersality of Arianisme like to that of Papisme in these last ages which Saint Augustine answeres in the fifth booke De Baptismo contra Donatistas cap. 27. That number of the iust who are called according to Gods purpose of whom it is said The Lord knoweth who are his is the inclosed garden the sealed fountaine the well of liuing waters the orchard with Apples c. The like hee hath l. 5. c. 3. 23. he concludes that because such are built vpon the Rocke as heare the Word of God and doe it and the rest vpon the sand now the Church is built vpon the Rocke all therefore that heare the Word of God and doe it not are out of question without the Church In the seuenth booke cap. 51. Quibus omnibus consideratis● Read and marke the whole Chapter Out of these and many more like places which I forbeare to mention it appeares that albeit the true Catholike Church is such as cannot bee hid yet considering that it consists of two sorts of people the one which is the greater part who doe not indeed properly belong to it the other the fewer truely and properly so called to whom all the glorious things spoken of the Church doe agree The face therefore of the mixt Church may be ouer-run with scandals as in all times almost The greatest number may sometime bee Idolaters as in the Kingdome of Israel vnder Achab. The principallest in authoritie may bee false teachers as the Priests and Prophets in Ieremies time the sonnes of pestilence may sit in Moses Chaire as they did in Christs time Yet still the Church is the ground and piller of Truth in the Elect Ipsa est praedestinata columna firmamentum veritatis The Sheepe heare not Seducers Iohn 10. 8. to wit finally and in any damnable point Thus was it before Christ thus since thus in the Church of England before yea and since it was reformed Thus in that of Rome it selfe at this day There is a distinction of Thomas of those that be in the Church which rightly ● interpreted agrees fully herewith There are some De Ecclesia numero tantum Some numero merito The former are such as haue onely fidem informem the latter formatam Now though the persons of such as be in the Church be visible yet the Faith and Charitie of men wee see not and to argue from the priuiledges of the Church numero merito to the Church numero tantum is a perpetuall but a palpable para●ogisme of the Romish faction which is grosser yet when they argue to the Church representatiue and grossest of all when one man is made the Church and he as themselues grant may fall out a Deuill incarnate CHAP. IX Of lacke of Vniformitie in matters of Faith in all ages and places ANd in this selfe same Paralogisme you were beguiled with in the next point of Vniformitie and concord in matters of Faith The true Church yee say ●uer holds such Vniformitie It is vtterly false in the Visible and mixt Church both before Christ and since It is false in the Church of Rome it selfe whose new-coyned faith patched to the Creed by Pius the Fourth came in peece-meale out of priuate opinions and corrupt vsages nor euer was in any age vniformely holden or taught as matter of Faith euen in it as it is at this day So by your owne discourse it should be no true Church And taking matters of faith so largely as it seemes you doe in opposition to such things as bee cer●m●nies or of gouernment it is vntrue also of the Church of the Elect or properly so called For though the Faith in the principles thereof bee euer the same yet many conclusions of Faith haue sometimes lien vnsearched out and like some parts of the world vnknowne till by the industrie of Gods seruants occasioned also by the importunitie and opposition of Heretikes they were discouered Sundrie common errours also there haue beene which in succeeding ages haue beene cleered and reformed as the ●hiliastes That Angels haue bodies That children after they be baptized are to be communicated That Heretikes are to be rebaptized To the Assumption First the Protestants challenge not to themselues any Church as their owne which I must aduertise you of here because formerly also you doe vse this phrase The Church is Christs both the visible and inuisible Next taking matters of Faith for foundations or articles of Faith necessarie to saluation the Church of Christ hath in all ages had

perhaps was added that the pricks are a late inuention of the Rabbines as many thinke and no part of the Hebrew Text. And that not onely Leo Castro and such as accuse the present Hebrew Copies as fal●ified but those that defend them also doe many of them confesse Hereupon it was resolued as it seemes to point this place 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 For that it was not by mistaking but purposely done Franciscu● Lucas in his Annotations vpon the place doth assure vs and saith it was Guido Fabricius his deede And indeede other things there bee in that worke which sauour not of the learning and integritie of Arias Montanus as for example the Etymologie of Missa from the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 But as Boldnesse is not alwayes as prouident as Ignorance or Malice is bold these Correctors marked not that the gender of the Verbe and the affixe of the Noune following are both Masculine So although the Orthographie would bee framed to consent yet the Syntaxe doth crie out against this Sacriledge And yet our Rhemists as I am informed in their lately set forth Bible with a long note vpon this place defend the applying of this Text to the blessed Virgin and the old reading Ipsa What should a man say Necessitie makes men desperate and as the Apostle saith Euill men and deceiuers shall waxe worse and worse deceiuing and being deceiued These be fraudes indeed in the strictest sense wilfully corrupting the Texts of good Authors wilfully maintayning them so corrupted not abstayning from the holy Scriptures themselues For as to that other kinde deprauing the sense retayning the wordes it were endlesse to cite examples Bellarmine alone as I beleeue passeth any two Protestants that euer set pen to paper perhaps all of them put together CHAP. VII Of the Armies of euident witnesses for the Romanists WHere you adde that you found the Catholikes had farre greater and better Armies of euident witnesses then the Protestants it might perhaps seeme so to you as your minde was prepared when you had met with such cunning muster-Masters as the Romanists are Who sometimes bring into the fi●ld to make their number seeme more after the old stratagem of warre a sort of Pages and Lackeis vnworthy to hold any ranke in the host of God vnder the names of the Fathers Sometimes to confirme their part giue out a voice confidently that all the ●orces which they see aloofe in the field are on their side whereas when it comes to the battell they shall finde that they wil turne their armes against them Somtimes they change the quarrell it selfe in which case how easie is it to bring Armies as you say into the field to fight against No-bodie and euident witnesses to proue that which no man denies For the purpose that the Bishops of Rome hath had a primacie of honour and authoritie when as the question is about a Monarchie and infallible Iudgement an vncontrolable Iurisdiction Herein if you please see how Bellarmine alleages the Fathers Greeke and Latine in the 15. and 16. Chapters of his first Booke de Summo Pontifice So for proofe of the veritie of Christs Bodie and Bloud in the Lords Supper hee spends a whole Booke onely in citing the testimonies of the Fathers To what purpose When the question is not of the truth of the Presence bu● of the manner whether it be to the Teeth and Belly or Soule and Faith of the Receiuer Sometimes they will beare downe the vnexpert Souldier their Reader that hee sees the Fathers fight for them as Pighius and Bellarmine come in often with their Vides in the end and application of a testimonie Whereby it comes to passe that the Scholler if he be of a plyable disposition or loath to bee counted dimme-sighted yeelds himselfe to his Teacher and sees in the Fathers that which they neuer dreamed of But surely Sir had you giuen that honour to the holy Scriptures which of the Iewes was giuen to them and our Lord Iesus Christ allowes it in them and then employed as much trauell in the searching and looking into them as you professe to haue done in the perusing the Councels and Fathers perhaps God had opened your eyes as those of El●sha his seruant to haue seene that there are more on our side then against vs horses indeede and charets of fire able to put to flight and scatter neuer so great armies of humane authorities and opinions But this place of the Scriptures hath no place amongst all your motiues As touching that which you say of the Centurists often consuring and reiecting the plaine testimonies of the Ancients It is true that in the title De Doctrina they note a part the singular and incommodious opinions the stubble and errors of the Doctors Wherein to tell you my fancie if they commit any fault it is that they are to rigid and strict referring into this Catalogue euery improper and excessiue speech which being seuered from the rest of the discourse may often seeme absurd as it may also seeme strange that our Sauiour should teach a man to hate his Father and Mother or pull out his eyes or giue him his cloake that hath bereaued him of his coate Whereas these and the like haue in the place where they stand admirable force and grace being taken with an equall and commodious interpretation But it is are cleare as the noone day that sundry such errors and singular opinions there be in the Fathers as cannot be iustified They speake not alwaies to your own mindes not onely prima facie and in sound of words but being neuer so well examined and salued Witnesse Sixtus Senensis in the fift and sixt Bookes of his Bibliotheca Witnesse Pamelius Medina though blamed for confessing so much by Bellarmine yea witnesse Bellarmine himselfe Wherefore if the bare authoritie of the Fathers must binde vs vndergoe the same law yee giue if as your Belgick Index confesseth you beare in them with many errors extenuate them excuse them by deuising some shift often denie them and giue them a c●modious sense when they are opposed in disputations giue the libertie ye take Or if as we thinke these be base courses and vnbeseeming the ingenuitie of true Christian mindes acknowledge this honour as proper to the Scriptures to be without controuersie receiued examine by the true touchstone of diuine authoritie all humaine writings how holy soeuer their Authors haue beene Try all things as the Apostle commands hold fast that which is good Your instance in Danaeus his Commentaries super D. Aug. Euchiridion ad Laurentium was not all the best chosen For neither doth Saint Augustine in that booke treating professedly of Purgatory auouch it plainely or yet obscurely Nor doth Danaeus reiect his opinion with those words Hic est nae●us Augustini or the like The heads of Saint Augustines discourse are these I. That whereas some thought that such as are baptized and holde the Faith of Christ though they liue and