that Christ himselfe testified of her that he had not found so great faith in Israell Read the place Reply c Absurd The woman was such Absurd Our Saviour speaketh not that of that womā Math 8 10 but of the Centurion Though the Notary were an Archbitshop yet I might intreat him better to read the place But Christ sayd Mat. 15.28 O woman great is thy faith What then Though as shee was elect she was also blessed yet as she was out of the visible Church the words of our Saviour might be spoken of her Neither doth the author say that she was a dogge but that she was litle better then a dogg in that respect that is as she was a Cananit none of the children of Israell Is ther no difference betwixt these words to say plainly that she was a dog Yet the words of our Saviour are playne It is not meete to take the childrens bread to cast it to dogs or whelps Therfore this note reproveth our Saviour Sophistrie and not the author of the Arguments The two next scoffing notes with d and e haue been often answered We leaue not our flockes in the playne field but are driven from them by force because we will not displease God to please the Prelats G. Powel f Onely Christ is the husband of his spouse Heere the supplicants blasphemously papize For I thinke they meane not this literally If they doe they are surely very honest men in the meane time Reply A man should first cast out the beame that is in his owne eye before he find fault with a mote in another mans eye Math 7 5 As Christ is the onely Archbishop of the Church so I acknowledg him also the onely husband of his spouse For the one title is as proper unto Christ as the other But heere the Notary falleth agayne over head and eares into the same sophistry that in the former note with c he did The author sayth that such Ministers had performed the duety as it were of husbands Sophistry the notary cryeth out blasphemy as if he had simply called them the husbands of the churches The author therfore did not blasphemously papize But let other take heed of like papizing that usurpe such names and authority as are proper onely to Christ and neither are nor can be maynteyned by any other Arguments then such as wherby the Papall dignity of the Antichrist of Rome is supported The latter part of the note is to lothsome for any Christian tongue to reade or chast eares to heare therfore I cast it out on the dunghill as vnworthy of any answer G. Powel g A lying hyperbole Then belike the Prophet Malachi Reply upon alleaging of whose words this note is grounded used a lying hyperbole Mala 2.13 14 God that putteth up all the teares of his children into his bottle knoweth and beholdeth this and will one day Rom 12 15 Iob. 30 25 Amos 6 6 wype a way these and all other teares from their eyes when they that in the meane time scorne such teares of the godly so farr are they from mournyng with them that mourne and being sory for the afflictions of Ioseph shall except they repent haue more then their bellye 's full of weeping and waylyng and gnashing of teeth G. Powel h If the refractary Ministers be so unkind and hard hearted that they will haue no pity upon them then may they be otherwise releeved well inough The Lord that searcheth the heartes of all men Reply knoweth the affections of some of the Ministers now deprived to be such towards their people that if they might stay with their people with comfortable conditions they had rather stay though their maintenance be but small then accept of a thowsand pound by the yeare else where with as good conditiōs Therfore hardnes of heart is not to be objected vnto them Touching the rest of this note it is strange that in the question of depriving ignorant Ministers according to the law statute in that behalfe this hath ben the principall objection where or how wil you haue their places supplyed Much like to the question of the Disciples whence should we get so much bread in the wildernes as should suffice so great a multitude Now the question being of our deprivation against law and the paucity of sufficient Ministers being objected reply is made There is store the Churches may be releeved otherwise But let them be first releeved that haue ignorant Ministers not knowing the principles of religion themselues much lesse able to teach other Further answer to the 6. Argument G. Powel If such congregations doe so mourne then the more hard hearts haue those cruel tyrants rather then sheepherds that without pity desperatly forsake them for litle or no cause Reply The substance of these wordes being the same with the former note is answered before yet here I ad 1 that it is more cruelty for the Prelats for litle or no cause to depriue such Pastors 2 that this answerer seemeth still to account sinnyng against God to be litle or nothing 3. that a theefe by the like reason may complayne of the hardnes of his heart that had rather lose his Purse then haue his throate cut G. Powel Those Congregations may cease mournyng and comfort themselues because there is store inough of able Ministers and they shall haue those that will not run away from them Take away tautologyes and other superfluityes and this answere it selfe would scarse haue been an obular or two farthing pamphlet Reply The first part of this answer hath been removed before Those that will not runne away where are they to be found What net may one haue to ketch them what keepe to hold them For doe not the Formalists dayly run away from their people Doe they not take another lyving and keep the former also leaving one to some journyman fit for all companyes Yea both Master man oftentymes leave both flocks to the Wolfe yea I knowe some that for sake their owne charges and are curats else where under other And to whome doe some of them leaue their owne To one that all the week long goeth to hedging ditchyng throshyng and other day labor for his livyng who on the Lordes day is at Church with a white Surplice to read service In harvest also they take harvest worke as ordinarily as other harvest men I haue seene it not long since with my eyes Some also within a fortnight after they are possessed of a living of good worth let it out for divers yeares and so take their leaue of the people to serue a cure under another O miserable condition of such a people Whose heart melteth not to think of such wretched watchmen What liklyhod therfore is there that the Congregations deprived of their godly loving paynefull Pastors shall haue other as faithfull that will not run away from
such a cause take heed you be not found a servant of men Answer But if any in authority haue cōmaunded you this worke did they also commaund you to rayle and revile your antagonist as you call him in such manner as you doe It is lamentable that any in authority in such a Christian Church should either commaund any such thing or allowe of it being done But it is more lamentable to obey The time was when you did well employ your selfe against the Common adversaryes You did then runne well What letted you that you did not hold on in that course What hath provoked you to turn your pen from them and to whet it now the second time against those whom you call and should in truth acknowledg your brethren Doe you feare any violence from the Papists by holding on against them because perhaps of some former experience Indeede you may well feare such violence from them and be secure touchyng all danger from us because you haue learned from the Apothegme after mentioned of D. Elmer late Bishop of London and much more from all experiēce that you may justly feare your life and cuttyng of your throat in the company of one Papist but that no such thing is ever to be feared amongst ten thowsand of those whom it pleased him to call prescisians G. Powel In divers respects I feared to plead in so high a Court before such judges etc. Yet the equity and holines of the cause moved me etc. Answer Why should you feare being commaunded Would not your comnaunders beare you out It may be they will before men but who shall plead for you before God except you repent Take heed you commend not that to be equall and holy which agreeth not with the wayes of God G. Powel I presently resolued to stand in the gap and breach between our brethren and vs. Answer This resolution upon bare commaundement of a man it may be also contrary to the likyng of some to whom you are more bound was too present to be sound How haue you stod in the gap breach By treading it down to make it lower that wild beasts or at the least strang cattell may the more easily break in to devoure the Lords vine and to eate up the Lords people as it were bread G. Powel Albeit I knew my brethrens affections to be somewhat unkind and their pens foule and shamefull Answer Whereby knew you their unkindnes and foulnes towards you Indeed they haue seene and dayly doe see your unkindnes towards them yea towards the Lord in oppossing your selfe to the Lords cause and to them in seeking therof and that in this bitter manner yea for the foulnes of your pen you might justly feare the like measure from them againe to you But God forbid that for that we should sinne against God and cease praying for you G. Powel Seeing it lyeth not in our powers to make them modest peacable and that we are called to serue God and his Church which we are bound to doe in good and evill report Answer You should first haue proved us immodest and unpeaceable before you had used these wordes God giue those graces to you and us The serving of God and of his Church is not in rayling reprochfull speaches in sharpnes and bitternes in untrue and unjust collections directly contrary to the words of our brethren But what meāe you by good and evell report If as patients it is well if as agents it is not so But though by your booke I haue little cause yet I will take you in the better sence G. Powel I pray our heavenly Father to forgiue them any injury etc. Answer Before prayers you should lay aside all wrath of heart and bitternes of word Math. 5.22 1 Tim. 2.8 Pray also sor the forgivnes of the wrongs you doe to vs both in this booke and also in your latine treatise De adiaphoris I haue not with drawne my selfe from this worke Gab. Powel no not for the estimatiō reverence I haue of the graue judgments of your honors If you had duely reverenced their Honors Answ you would haue feared the offering vnto them such a present of raylings vnjust collections etc. As if they had been voyd of judgement not able to discerne of such accusations G. Powel I mayntaine here the glory of God and honor of our Prelats Answer As our Saviour said They shall excommunicate you yea the time shall come that whosoever killeth you shall thinke that he doth God service Ioh. 16.2 So this answerer thinketh that he glorifieth God by rayling on his cause servāts As for the Honor of our Prelats you should first haue been on a sure ground for the lawfulnes thereof before you had taken upon you like a champion the defence thereof 2. Even a good cause is rather overthrowne then vpheld by such meanes of scoffing and rayling as in this this booke you haue vsed Thus much for the answer to the Preface of M. Powels THE NEXT THING TO BE CONSIDERED is his marginall Notes vpon the preface of the author The first note with a I passe by G. Powel b This pretense unto the Christian reader is because they would not seeme to be petitioners unto the Parliament Answer What a strange collection is this Haue we expresly directed all the said argumēts vnto the Parliament house and yet would we not seeme to be petitioners unto thē Nay rather sith this answerer thus carpeth at these words the Christian reader M. Powell maketh the Parliament no christian assembly gatthering from the humble petition of the Author of those Argumentes to the Christian Reader etc. that he would not seeme to be Petitioner to the Parliment may not this be better gathered that the answerer distinguisheth the christian readers from the Parliament and the Parliament from them and so maketh the Parliament no christian assembly But why did the author use those wordes the christian reader The reason seemeth double 1 because he did so account of every one in the Parliament house 2 because he thought that those arguments might come to the handes of other Christian readers then onely of Parliament men G. Powel c The supplicants make the profession of the gospell and all religion to consist in refusing cap surplice crosse etc. Great cry litle wooll Answer This etc. After the word crosse is well added For otherwise although we hold those things to be matters of religion yet never any of us did affirme all religion to cōsist in thē without this etc. therfore this is an unchristian slaunder and to speake according to the answerers learning in Aristotles Eleuchs a fallacy ab eo quod est secundum quid ad id quod est simpliciter The adage in the end of this note is too homely for that Honorable Court to whom the answerer speaketh as being taken from swyne
great lets and impediments to the sincere ministery of the gospell If you be of that minde and shew the same it wil be no small let and impediment to your owne preferment with the Bishops If you be not then surely this your note is not worth the noting G. Powel g If we professe Christ and maintayne his gospell what doe they plead for then VVherefore haue they denyed it all this while pretending they labour for nothing but the gospell the ministery therof What an untruth is this Where haue we denyed Christ here to be professed Reply and his gospell maynteyned But though we professe Christ maynteyne his gospell yet we plead 1 for the better continuance of the gospell where already it is 2 That so it may the better be where it is not 3 That it may be more glorified and the better florish and fructifie in all places all which thinges cannot be if the proceedinges begunne be not stayd and mitigated 4 May not a kingdome in generall professe Christ and maynteyne his gospell and yet haue some superfluityes which obscure Christ and hinder his gospell as also want some thinges belonging to Christ and his gospell which may make Christ more glorious and further his Gospell G. Powel h Lo now the Disciplinariay ataxie for which the suppliants plead so much is whole Christ Iesus Intollerable blasphemie So cryed the High Preist Reply when Christ confessed himselfe to be the Sonne of the livyng God Math. 27.65 If it had pleased you notwithstanding you might in charitie haue otherwise vnderstood the authors words But let the meanyng be as you take it haue you caught him in any trap Nothing lesse For what else can be gathered but that in the profession of the gospell here in England there are defects and wants That the Church of Christ among vs is in some sort defectiue And although we haue Christ in his word and Sacraments and in other exercises of religion yet we haue not whole Christ in that we haue not all his ordinances And that therefore some thing more ought to be added that Christ may raigne more fully absolutely over us Neither is there any such ataxie in the Discipline by these wordes signified For we desire nothing but the order wherin the Apostle reioyced Colos 2.5 Whereof also we haue the rudera and as it were the stumps yet remaynyng in our Parishionall Church-wardens and sidemen though intituled with other names and wanting that ordination and authority which with the Pastors within there owne Parishes Elders ought to haue This Discipline if we might haue equall hearing we could casily free from all such imputations as wherby it is commonly disgraced by the adversaryes therof with Princes and Nobles Yea we could plainely and truely shew the same to be nothing prejuditiall but very helpfull both to all Royall authority and also to Nobility yea better agreeyng with the one and the other then all other inventions of men for Ecclesiasticall goverment whatsoever Touching the intollerable blasphemie imputed in the end of this note to the author of the Argumēts by way of an exclamation it lyeth upon them that feare not openly to deny Christ Iesus to be law giver and King of his Church How it can be cast upon us for desiryng whole Christ Iesus I meane all his ordinances I can not discerne Further answer to the Fith Argument G. Powel Zeale and courage for defence of Gods truth and Church is commendable but it were rashnes and foole hardines for any to adventure hazard and danger by intermedling in a frivolous quarrell and in a cause not justifiable Reply Now you pay home indeede If Cardinall Wolsey were livyng he could speake no more imperiously For except by a frivolous quarrell and a cause not iustifiable you meane not the cause of the Ministers you speake nothing to the purpose If you meane that as needes you must then doe you not speake to vs poore Ministers alone but also to the Parliament and to all other Noble men or gentlemen that haue intermedled M Powels censure of the Parliament house or shall intermedle in our cause Yea them you doe not cunnyngly but openly playnly charge all such with rashnes and foolehardines If you had been a man that in heart had not cared for the opposition of any yet this speech would scarse haue beseemed your person One of us for halfe so much against the meanest Prelat yea against the basest Chancellor should haue payd full sweetly But your side seeme to haue privilege of speake and writing what you please against any yea against many yea against the High Court of Parliament Yea against whole Churches and kingdoms For the rest if we cannot make our cause good and justifie the same so that all your side shall not be able substantially to answer without scoffing rayling wrangling and sophisticating then let our quarrell be accounted frivolous and our cause not justifiable G. Powel There are great ods betweene these examples proposed and the refractarie ministers case There should be such ods Reply For the author reasoneth not á similibus or paribus from likes or equalls but from the lesse to the greater G. Powel In the tyme of Nehemiah the Iewes by long captivity were in great affliction the walls of Ierusalem broken downe etc. But our Church hath long florished is glorious still and more and more increaseth I will not say your wordes are like to his wordes that boasted saying I am rich and increased with goods Reply Revel 3.17 and haue neede of nothing but this I say that all beyng granted that you say doth not hinder but further the cause The more the Church florisheth the more easie it is to grant that which the Arguments pleade for Ministers also of the word are as necessary for the preserving and increasing of the glorie of Churches as for the procuring therof at the first But alas I would God our Church did so florish as you pretend Indeed it hath many rich mercyes God be blessed for them but he that seeth not what the Church wanteth doth not rightly acknowledge that which it hath Is this the glory of a Church for Prelates to florish and flant it out gallantly and for their men to ruffle it out lustily Nay rather this is the glory of the world and better beseeming the Courts of Princes and houses of Noble men then the calling of orthodox Bishops who should as well in their life as in their doctrine preach humilitie modestie and contempt of the world The more glorious that Prelats are outwardly the lesse glorious for the most part they are inwardly Yea it is to be observed that the more the outward glory of Churchmen as they are called hath increased the more hath true inward glory decayed The more also that the inward and true bewty of the Church hath decayed the more hath the outward state and pompe of
the officers thereof increased When were the Preists of the law of greater outward authority and tooke more upon thē then when the church of the Iewes touching true beuty was in worst case Serch the scriptures for they beare witnes heerof Yea were there ever so many degrees of dignitie in the Church and doe we ever reade of so great state and pompe of the Preistes in the former tymes as there was of the Preists Scribes Pharises at the first commyng of Christ And were ever things in so bad case before as thē they were So also sinc that the more that truth of doctrine and puritie of Discipline decayed in the Church after the golden and most glorious age of the Apostles the more did the Church grow unto and swell in outward riches pomp and glory Experience also teacheth that the more glorious Prelats are in their outward state the lesse benefite the rest of the Church hath by them because they take the less paynes at the least such paynes as are most agreable to the true Episcopall and ministeriall calling described in holy scripture Wherein then is the true glory of the Church 1 in such ministers of the word and other officers as Christ hath commended 2 In the performance of such dutyes by them as he requyreth that is in preaching the word faithfully in administring the Sacraments sincerely in praying zealously and aptly according to the necessityes of the Church and in executyng Discipline wisely and justly 3 In the effects of the former two viz in true knowledge faith loue zeale humility patience temperance righteousnes peace etc. Touching these thinges the more we want som of those officers that Christ hath cōmended by his Apostles to the Church and the more negligent those that we haue are in their duties the more lamentable it is to see the carved pillers of the temple broken downe and the faithfull workmen in Gods house to be cast out by whose labors it had been before built brought to some good bewty Touching the last what christian heart is so stony that it doth not mourne What eye so drye that it doth not shead teares yea rather gush out with teares to consider and behold the mesery of our supposed glorious Church by the spirituall nakednes blindnes poverty therof I meane the great ignorance the superficiall worship of God the fearfull blasphemies and swaringes in houses and streates so also the direfull cursings the open contempt of the word Sacraments the wicked profanations of the Lords dayes the dishonor of superiours the pride the cruelty the fornications adultryes and other uncleannesses the dronkennes the covetousnes the usuryes and other the like abominations almost as grevous as either heertofore in the tyme or now in the places of Popery when and where there was no preaching at all of the gospell O M. Powel and yee my Reverend Fathers and brethren in the ministery even of the conformable sorte flatter not your selues in this behalfe but behold and pity the wofull and lamentable stat of our Church in these things But to returne heerin you erre not a litle in that you confound the state of the Church and of the common wealth of the Iewes The Common wealth was indeed at that time in much misery But was the Church also amongst them for such thinges as wheerin cheifely consisteth misery in as bad condition Had they not those officers that God had prescribed Were the Preists and Levits either so ignorant or so idle or so scandolous as many called Ministers amongst us Were the faithfull and paynfull Preists and Levites so urged to the observation of mens traditions and Ceremonyes in the worship of God and otherwise so molested as now many godly ministers are Were the people so blind so irreligious so unrighteous as now they are Were the godly forced to heare dumme dogges or corrupt teachers Or restrayned from hearing of those that preached wholsome doctrine or urged to communicate with the Preistes in humaine Ceremonyes to the greife of their soules and wounding of their consciences as many now are The Lord giue you all such consideration of these thinges that yee may not so much labour for outward pompe preferments honors dignityes etc. As for the true felicitie of our English Ierusalem and Sion that God may build up the walles therof and still loue and delight therin G. Powel As Nehemiah having by prayer and fasting found favour with an heathen King for the building of Ierusalem was resisted and hindred by Sanballat Tobiah Geshem etc. So worthy Nehemiah in the beginning of our religious Soveraignes reigne finding grace for the continuance of the prosperous estate of our Church begunne in the dayes of our blessed Queene so many Sanballats Tobiahs and Geshems as there be refractary ministers and Papists deryding and despisyng us labor to hinder our ministery etc. The ods that before he spake of Reply now he maketh likes Is this to dispute ad idem and to the purpose Touching his worthy Nehemiah whom he compareth to auncient good Nehemiah let this be observed that although he speake of the prayer and fasting of the auncient Nehemiah yet he speaketh not of any prayer and fasting of his newe Nehemiah What may be suspected or noted heerin I leaue to the consideration of the wise and judicious reader that remembreth what opposition many of the Prelats haue alwayes made to true fasting and that also knoweth what be the thinges which men may safely commēd in prayer unto God especially for which they may humble themselues extraordinary in fasting before God Touching the Tobiahs Sanballats and Geshems whom fayne he would haue to be those that he calles refractary ministers as well as the Papists let him not deceaue himselfe heerin For the wise Christian readers are able to discerne thē to be most worthy of these nāes that striue most for mens precepts that study more to please men then God that preach not themselues and hinder them that would whose cheefe worke is not to encrease God his kingdome but to uphold their owne fearing nothing more then the downefall therof which also feed not the Lords people with the bread of eternall life but their owne bodyes with the meate that perisheth and with all carnall delights who care not to enrich the Lords people with durable riches that shall not be taken away but plod day and night to enrich themselues in this world and to build great house for their posteritie Such are indeed the Sanballats Tobiahs and Geshems that doe most oppugne the spirituall building of the spirituall Ierusalem Now although this answerer other not much vnlike those before described for a tyme reproch and scorne vs by such odious names and comparisons yea plough upon our backes and make long furrowes yet the righteous Lord in the end shall plead our cause against them and bring forth our righteousnes even as the mornyng Sunne it may be in this world that even
not Circumcising Cain and Abell did contrary to the law given for Circumcision to Abraham many yeares after Or whither Ishmael persecuted Isaack before Isack was borne Or whether stealing of horses an hundred yeares past were punishable with death before any law made for death in that behalfe One thing cannot be sayd contrary to an other that is not neyther ever was extant in rerum natura The Second part of this Quere whether since the granting of Magna Charta unto this age the judiciall acts of deprivation of Bishops etc were ever held to be contrary to the law of this kingdome and Magna Charta we shall answer if God permit more plentifully anone Quere 3 G. Powel 3 Quere Whether any Iudge of this Realme or any cheife officer lerned in the lawes be of opinion that such sentences of deprivation as haue lately passed in due forme in any Ecclesiasticall Court be contrary to any much lesse to many statuts Reply Though it were a sufficient answer to bid him goe looke and himselfe to aske the opinion of every judge learned officer yet will I not altogether yeld him so short and cutted an answer And though it be a principle in Philosophy that forma dat esse rei yet to the beyng of every thing there must be matter to which the forme giveth being And therefore in this case besides due forme there must be also due matter inserted in due sentences Wherupon I craue a resolute and direct answer whether by those words passed in due forme he meane passed for matter and forme in due forme Or whether he meane passed without due matter in due forme onely For if he meane by passed for matter and forme in due forme then is his question without question either a foolish question or no question at all For who would question whether any Iudge or learned officer could doubt that a sentence passed for matter and forme in due forme were a sentence contrary to any much lesse to many statuts As though there were any Statuts so ridiculous and absurd On the other side if he meane by passed in due forme only due forme without due matter then we answer that the same sentence may be unjust for want of due matter and yet be just by reason of due forme And so on the other parte we affirme that a sentence may be iust by reason of due matter and yet unjust by reason of an undue forme How many sentences therefore of deprivation soever as haue been lately given without due and just matter or without due and iust forme we answer so many not to haue passed in due matter and forme and so contrary to some lawes or statuts But were this question wholly grāted what ease and advantage can the opinion of any iudg or learned officer yeeld to those Iudiciall acts of deprivation wherupon the controversie is grounded which are not passed in any due forme of any law or Statute Ecclesiasticall whatsoever Furthermore touching this question if the Prelats did intend that all their sentēces should be according to law wherfore did they make a Canon against the ordinary prosecution of appeales Yea what needed such a Canon What benefite is there to any appellant by his appeale from a just sentence Or what danger to the Iudge a quo by such appeales The whole danger is to the appellant himselfe For the sentence beyng just he shall be sure to get nothing neither the Iudge a quo to lose any thing by the appeale G. Powel VVho having but halfe an eye doth not see but that by pleading Magna Charta cap. 29 they would not onely weaken but also subvert and utterly overthrow all jurisdiction Ecclesiasticall Doth every one that desireth limitation of Ecclesiasticall jurisdiction Reply and laboreth to restrayne it from all communion of forreyne lawes seeke the subversion therof If also the lawes Ecclesiasticall be the Kings Ecclesiasticall lawes and the jurisdiction Ecclesiasticall the Kings Ecclesiasticall jurisdiction then is this place of Magna Charta so farre from subverting the jurisdiction or law Ecclesiasticall as that by that place the same law and jurisdiction is up held and more throughly established That the law jurisdiction Ecclesiastical ever hath been and yet is accounted the Kings Ecclesiasticall law and juridiction shall be shewed anone G. Powel The sentences and graue determinations whereof that is of Ecclesiasticall jurisdiction haue never yet in any age or Country been submitted to popular triall by the judgment of Peeres etc Reply All sent ces of Ecclesiasticall Courts are not so graue but that some are somtymes repealed by Higher courts and sometymes revoked by themselues Sometyme also they meddle with matters not belonging unto them and therfore by ordinary course of Commmon law they are prohibited to proceed Finally in some case the Bishop giveth not Institution to a benefice untill by a Iury of 12. men whereof 6. are to be of the Clergy and 6 of the Layity the controversie de iure patronatus be decided Yea sometyme the Bishop having instituted a clarke is forced by writ from the common law to admit of another clark presented by another Patrone and so to displace him whom before he had instituted G. Powel The place of Magna Charta cannot be understood of Ecclesiasticall jurisdiction or the practise thereof especially if we consider the end why this law was made and the tyme when The Prelats should make sure worke indeed Reply if they could make that no lawes were against their power Thē might they take upon them without controlment what they would under coloure of Ecclesiasticall iurisdiction as indeed they doe now pretily beginne to doe G. Powel The end was that the Kings of this Realme might not challenge an infinit and absolute power as some Kings else where did and yet doe without judgment and lawfull proceedings to take away any mans liberty life Country goods or lands Then belike the Kings Majestie is restrayned by Magna Charta but the Prelacy is not Reply Is not this good stuffe The King shall weare the Crowne but the Prelats will beare the sword Whether now doe they that are falsely called Puritans or the Prelats most encroch upon the Royall authoritye G. Powel It was made at such time as the Kings thought Ecclesiasticall jurisdiction no more in right then in fact to belong to the Crowne Therfore the words haue no relation to Ecclesiasticall jurisdiction This is utterly false Reply yea the falshood therof is evident by the testimony of that worthy and renowned Lawyer S. Edward Cooke in the booke alleadged by the answerer For he sayth expresely that as in temporall causes the King by the mouth of Iudges in his Courts of Iustice doth iudge the same by the temporall lawes of England lib. de jure regis Eccle. fol 8 so in causes Ecclesiasticall etc. the connusance wherof doth not belong to the common lawes of
tell wher or how etc should be lesse tolerable then many great sinnes expresly forbidden by God himself is very strang yea lamentable yea fearefull to thinke much more to speake and write most of all to print for all the world yea for all posterity to behold Especially that a learned man a divine and Minister of the word should so thinke speake write and publish If this be not to preferre the authority of mortall and frayle man before the authority of the immortall and most mighty God Mar. 7 13 yea to make the word of God of no authority by traditions which men haue ordeyned I know not what is As for false doctrine or phanaticall conceits which of you all can justly charge us with them as many conformitans may be with divers poynts of Popery with toyes in the pulpit more fit for a stage then for Moses chayre with foolish allegoryes and with such pleading for Ceremonyes as that the people are not onely not edified but also corrupted and infected yea the minds of those that are judicious and haue any tast of goodnes exceedingly wounded The like commission that before I spake of would sheew the trueth of these things also G. Powel i An impudent and lowd lye What an exclamation and accusation is this upon the Printers fault in setting Conformitans for unconformitans If mallice had not overswayed reason he might easily haue seen it to be so by the scope of the author I haue also seene and so many other divers copyes corrected heerin with the authors owne hand The notes with k l and m are often answered The Greeke word of the next note the Printer for want of Greeke letters was fayne to omit For which reason also all the fallacies in the end of every answer are left out the rest of the note followeth G. Powel n The tyme of the old Testament beyng expired Christ abolished the Ceremoniall law and ordeyned the New Testament what will they conclude from hence Reply That no Ceremonyes being instituted by God himselfe since the death of Christ whereby the former were abrogated God is therfore now to be worshipped in spirit truth and that no man or Church whatsoever hath power to ordeyne Ceremonyes for the worship of God G. Powel o VVhat Not any No Sacraments No other Ceremonyes Reply Not any No Sacraments No other Ceremonyes For the Sacraments that now are were ordayned before Christs sufferings and before the abrogation of the Ceremoniall law upon his Cross These words goe teach all Nations Colos 2 14 math 28 19 Rom. 3.2 Psal 1 47.19 26 baptissing them etc. doe but ratifie and confirme that which was before instituted as also make for the commucating of the word and Sacraments to the Gentils which before had been peculiar to the Iewes All other things now in the Church for the goverment thereof differing from those that were under the law were ordeyned by Christ or at least he had given commaundement for them to the Apostles before his passion and therefore before the abrogation of the Ceremonyes For Christ commanded his Apostles to teach onely such things as he had commāded them Mat 28 20 Ioh 14 26. and the Holy Ghost was onely to teach them althinges and to bring althinges to their remembrance which he Christ himselfe had told them The p hath been answered in the marginall note with h of the 5 Argument G. Powel q False They are the bonds of society besids other uses for edificatiō Then where there is no Crosse and surplice Reply there is no society or at the least but loose and weake society But perhaps he meāeth no Lordly Episcopall society because no Ceremony no Bishop He may also meāe society betwixt a Minister and his benefice So some haue found it true Touching the other uses for edification we desire to see them G. Powel r If the supplicants request were granted in the Ceremonyes yet would the refractary Ministers be restles still untill they had altogeather brought in their New Discipline and peradventure more restles then then ever they were before As the newes of Christ birth at the first troubled all Ierusalem Reply so it troubleth all Papall Prelats to thinke of Christs cōmyng in the Discipline that he hath ordeyned These wordes their Discipline and new Discipline are but marginall Mathematicall fictions None of us desire any thing of our owne but onely the ordinances of Christ Iesus which cannot be otherwise called newe then his commandement for loving one another Iohn 13.34 is called a new commandement This Discipline we haue never attempted to bring in by any unduetifull meanes but by all humble supplication to the supreame authority to which we acknowledge the establishment thereof to belong Therefore that we will be more restles eyther before or after the obteyning therof then becommeth us is but his owne imagination frō the experience perhaps of the restlesnes of some Prelats till they be Bishops and afterward till they come to be Archbishops Yea thē also till they get some further honor yea till they haue suppressed all those that they think doe any wayes dislike of such places If it might please his Majestie and the other States of this Kingdome but to permit it in some places where it might be most conveniently it should much more clearely appeare both how we would content our selues with all humble thanks to his Majestie and to the other States in that behalfe and also how much better this would agree with all Civill Magistracy then their present Hierarchicall and Ecclesiasticall goverment doth yea how farre more beneficiall it would be to the Common wealth and finally how untrue many other imputations are whereby it is commonly disgraced If any should abuse the same or himselfe in the execution therof we never denyed but that such offenders should be subject to the censure of his Majestie or of any his inferior officers G. Powel s Sound and solid peace will never be wrought but by recalling the refractary Ministers from Schisme and faction unto perfect obediēce Reply You must first proue us to be in a schisme and faction In the meane time sound and solid peace would a thowsand tymes better be made by removing all humane Ceremonyes by a more free preaching of the gospell of peace If all Ministers should conforme themselues yet if the gospell should be sincerely preached though never any word should be spoken against the Ceremonyes and other thinges in controversie particularly certeynly the Ceremonyes and other matters now in question would be as odious and in as great disgrace as now they are It is therefore a vayne thing to labor for peace without removing of those thinges Touching obedience it can never be perfect to man where it is not sound towardes God The establishing of Gods ordinances will teach worke perfect obedience unto men to whom obedience is due Further answer to the