bookes when being compared to those which were trulie knowen to be Hippocrates his owne they were iudged to be vnlike and because they were not knowen to be trulie his at the same time when the rest of his writings came to be knowne So the ecclesiasticall writings of men are no otherwise knowen whose they were but because in the times wherein euerie one wrote them he acquainted and published them to whom he could and from thence by a continued knowledge from one to another and farther confirmed they cap. 9. came to their posteritie euen to our times In like maner he concludes of the holy Scriptures If you will follow the authoritie of the Scriptures which ought to be preferred before all other follow that which from the times of the verie presence of Christ by the dispensations of the Apostles hauing beene kept throughout the whole world came commended and famouslie knowen to our times By all which it is euident that Augustine meant not to make the Catholike Church of his time the author of his beleefe touching the Canonical Scriptures but the Catholike Church of the first times who came neerest to the writing and deliuerie of the Scriptures from the hands of the Apostles and the Apostolike men that wrote them for whose testimonie and commendations sake the Church succeeding is also beleeued What is this to the supposed Catholike church of our daies by which you meane the Popes kingdome when euen the true Catholike church of later times neither hath nor chalengeth to her selfe any credit in this matter but as she can porduce the testimonie of the Catholike church in the first times Lastly Augustine there saith Nisi me commoueret Ecclesiae authoritas He only ascribeth to the Churches authoritie that it is a motiue and the first motiue to induce an vnbeleeuing man to thinke well of the Scriptures but hee resteth not in this motiue Hauing thus begun he proceedeth after in searching the Scripture to finde by what spirit they were written and by the authority and teaching of that Spirit as the vndoubted word of God to embrace them not man now but God himselfe inwardlie strengthening and enlightening his â—inde as he is before alleadged What makes all this for the authoritie of the Popish falsly called Catholike church to lead mens consciences into captiuitie by her interpretations or determinations either of the Canonicall Scriptures or of their sense Nay what makes this for such authoritie as vnder the Churches title you would claime to depriue Christians of any better assurance either touching the Scriptures or their sense then it receiued from the authoritie of the Church that is of men no lesse subiect to errourthen themselues But you would faine knowe how the Protestants that beleeue nothing but Scripture can by Scripture prooue against Luther that S. Iames his Epistle is Canonicall Scripture Euen in like manner as wee can prooue S. Pauls Epistles and other Scriptures inspired of God to be Canonicall Scripture For thinke you that that Spirit by whose inspiration holy men of God wrote the Scriptures doth not still breath in the same Scriptures by meanes of which Spirit the word of God Hebr. 4. 12. liueth and is mightie in operation and by that speciall vertue differeth from humane writings yea euen those that are written of Scripture matters Either then you must diuide the Spirit from the Scriptures when Gods children reade it which you cannot doe without dishonour to the Scriptures or you must needes confesse that out of the Scriptures inspired of God Gods children doe sufficiently prooue vnto their owne consciences and against all gaine-sayers that the whole Scripture and euery part thereof is Canonicall that 1 Cor. 2. 4. is a souereigne rule to guide the Church in all points both concerning faith and maners For as the Apostles preaching so his writing and all Scripture inspired of God hath in it selfe plaine euidence of the spirit and of power that our faith should not be in the wisedome of men but in the power of God Thus out of S. Pauls Epistles wee can prooue S. Pauls Epistles to be Canonicall And out of S. Iames his Epistle wee can prooue S. Iames his Epistle to be Canonicall and generally the whole Scripture prooues it selfe to be Canonicall and from it selfe the Church receiueth receiueth witnesse of it selfe If you be ignorant of this it is because you haue not receiued of the annointing of that Spirit by whom the Scriptures were inspired And now cease any longer to disport your selfe with this carnall question out of what Scripture the Protestants can prooue S. Iames his Epistle to be Canonicall The sheepe of Christ doe knowe the shepheards voice and they knowe it not by report but by it selfe they discerne it To conclude because there is danger in expounding the Scriptures contrarie to the true sense intended by the holy Ghost albeit not equall danger as in refusing the holy Scripture indited by the holy Ghost as Augustine insinuateth Confess lib. 12. cap. 23. 24. as in the greater that is the approbation of Canonicall Scriptures wee dare not remit all to mens voices though they be the Church so in that wherein errours is lesse dangerous yet dangerous too that is in determining the true sense of Scriptures we dare not build our faith vpon the wisedome of men because as hath beene alleadged out of Augustne we haue learned of our Redeemer in â—â—llo hoâ—ike spem pouere to put no trust in any man but onely in the plaine euidence of the spirit that speaketh in the Scriptures which so long as we doe with faithfull prayer and humble submission to his teaching according to the promise they shall be all taught of God weare assured to be led into all truth Isa 54. 13. Iohn 6. 45. necessary to saluation which security the Papists that rest in mens authority can neuer haue PAPIST Seauenthly wittingly and willingly they corrupt the text of holy Scripture for example to make the people beleeue that images are vnlawfull in Tyndals translation where Idols be forbidden vsually the word Image is placed in steed thereof and therefore in S. Iohn we find it thus traÌ„slated Babes keep your selues froÌ„ images 1. Ioh. â— 21. And for triall we will appeale to their later Bibles printed by Christopher Barker for there we read thus Little children keepe your selues from Idols PROTESTANT Not to stand long in these points so sufficiently answered long agoe by Doctor Fulke against Martine and Doctor Whitaker against Reynolds both of worthy and blessed memorie first it is so plain that the Greeke word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth in the proprietie of the word signifie an image that Gregorie Martine neither can nor doth denie it Secondly as vse hath restrained the name Idoll from the generall signification to note onely wicked images and such as are abused to Gods dishonour so is it well knowen that both in vulgar and popular vse and also in the generall vnderstanding
take vpon him to define of what nature the sins are which by the praiers of the liuing are remitted to the dead what those sins are saith he which so hinder coÌ„ming to the kingdom of heauen that yet through the merits of their holy frends they obtaine pardon after death it is most hard to find most dangerous to define I surely euen vntill this time although I haue taken paines enough about it yet could neuer De ciui Dei lib. 21. cap. 27. attaine to search it out Secondly Augustine so praieth for his mother Monica that yet he doubreth not that she in her life time obtayned remission of all her sins by the bloud of Christ dispeÌ„sed to her waiting dailie at his Altar he therefore praieth only that it may be vnto her according to her faith that she may be preserued froÌ„ the powers of darknes receiue the 1 Pet. 1. 9. end of her faith the saluation of her soule that is he praieth for her consuÌ„mation in the kingdome of God of Christ For Augustine himselfe confesseth Therefore no new merits are purchased for the deade when their friends do anie good for them but these things are recompensed to their former merits De verb. Apost Ser. 32 What is this to Popish praier for the gaole deliuery of souls that are in the pains of Purgatory of whoÌ„ you fain that many are the sooner deliuered by your lip-labors a deuise of late times to improue the Popes reuenues and to enrich Cloysters and idle bellies Lastly Augustine himselfe being so vnsetled in the matter of Prayer for the dead that he is faine to bring strange interpretations of the vse of Prayer and other charities for the dead For these being generally done for all the dead he saith that For those that are very good they are thankesgiuings for those that are very euill although they be no helpe to them yet are they comforts to the liuing and yet after that he saith they auaile to make their paines lighter and their damnation more tolerable which if it be so is some helpe for the middle sort they are propitiations that is supplicatorie praiers for pardon of their sinnes which yet speaking of his mother Monica he saith she had in her life time And to salue the Confes lib. 9. cap. 13. 2. Cor. 5. 10. Scripture which saith that euery one shall receiue according to that he hath done in his life he is faine to say that these in their life time deserued to haue benefit by the Churches prayers which what it is else but remission of sinnes Augustine I say being thus inwrapped in vncertainties maruaile you that Caluine said it was anile votum c. an old womans desire which her sonne did not examine by the rule of Scripture but of a naturall affection was desirous to approue vnto others Where resolution wanted in the matter there could be no sufficient warrant whatsoeuer you say to the contrary PAPIST About particular and auricular confession of sinnes we haue also the authoritie of antiquity as the same Caluine informeth Inst lib. 3. cap. 4. sec 7. Auricular confession ancient vs. I maruaile quoth he with what face they dare contend that the confession whereof they speake was ordained by Gods law the vse whereof I confesse was passing auncient but easily can I proue that in old time it was free Nay then with what face dare he deny that to be ordained by Gods law For what man of reason can thinke that antiquitie would haue vsed it had it not descended from Christ and his Apostles or what power could haue brought it into the Church it being so contrarie to our proude nature had not the Sonne of God himselfe planted that doctrine But it was free in old time saith he What then For do we not know that the Communion was so likewise in olde time If then the Church of England may make a law to bind men once in the yeare to the Communion may not the Catholike Church do the like for confession Still Caluine giueth vs the ancient Fathers but reserueth the Scriptures for himselfe we take what be granteth but deny what he requireth PROTESTANT Confession of some particular sinnes specially such as lay heauie vpon the conscience but not of euery particular sinne with euery circumstance and that to euery parish priest in secret which is your popish eare-shrift such confession I say to a Priest by speciall order of the Churches appointed thereunto Caluine doth confesse and well may to be very ancient and yet maintaine popish eare-thrift to be very yong as receiuing his first authoritie from the Laterane councell vnder Innocentius 3. in the yeare of our Lord 1215. as Caluine in the same place telleth you But you aske with what face be dare that it was ordained by Gods law For you say what man of reason can thinke that antiquitie would haue vsed it had it not descended from Christ and his Apostles Tertullian whom you will not deny to be a man of reason though he shew the antiquitie of offerings for the De Coron milit dead yet confesseth there is no Scripture for it Therefore your forcible reason hath neither force nor grace when you thus conclude Antiquitie vsed confession of particular sinnes to a Priest Therefore it was ordained by Gods law Besides doth not M. Caluine proue vnto you that antiquitie held it not to be of diuine institution for otherwise Nectarias Bishop of Constantinople would not haue abrogated it for the abuse of it neither would Chrysostome after him haue giuen so much liberty from such confession as he doth as he is alleaged by M. Caluine in the next section to that you mention See Inft. lib. 3. cap. 4. Sec. 8. therefore with what face you chalenge him in that wherein he bringeth so sufficient proofe The proofe by him there alleaged I set not downe at large because if you will you may as easily finde them set downe by him as you could find this peece by you alleaged But whether your corner-shrift be of that Antiquity that you pretend if Caluins proofes perswade you not see what Beatus Rhenanus writeth Moreouer for no other cause haue we here vsed the testimonies of manie then to this end that no man Argâ—â— in Tertul lib. de pâ—nitent should maruaile that Tertullian hath spoken nothing of this corner or secret confession of sinnes committed which at that time was vtterly vnknowen And in another place in his book De poenitentia Admonit de Tertul dogmat he mentioneth onlie publike confession And againe Not onlie in Tertullian but euen in those which liued manie ages after there is onelie mention of publike pennance and confession If it had descended from Christ and his Apostles it could not haue beene so earely and so long out of vse Such is the antiquity of your Eareshriâ—t Your next reason to deriue it froÌ„ Christ and his Apostles is because it being a
are your expositions Your last meanes is the Decrees of generall Councels Can you bring vs the Decrees of generall councels touching all Scriptures what sense they doe and ought to beare If not then belike there is no knowne sense of any other Scriptures then such as generall Councels haue expounded the rest are buried in obscurity But Augustine will not yeeld to that who among other meanes to finde out the true interpretation of Scriptures aduising diligently to search for both De Doctr. Christ lib. 2. cap. 9. such precepts of good life and rules of faith as are plainely set downe in the Scriptures whereof the more a man findes the more capable he is vnderstand the Scriptures yeelds this reason of his aduise In his enim c. For in those words which are euidently set down in the Scriptures are found al those things which containe faith and maners of life Next do generall Councels all agree in one in this also Augustine is a witnes against you writing against the Donatistes who pleaded Cyprians letters Cyprians sentence Cyprians councell But Augustine preferreth the holy Scripture aboue all the writings of Bishops yea aboue all generall Councels allowing the Scriptures alone to haue certaintie and vndoubted truth in them but all the writings of Bishops yea the determinations of Councels to be subiect to the correction of other Bishops after them and likewise of other and later Councels his wordes touching the Councels are Ipsa enim concilia c. For the verie Councels De baptis cont Douat lib. 2. cap. 3. which are held through euerie Region or Prouince doe without all doubt giue place to the authoritie of plenarie or generall Councels which are held from out of all the Christian world and the verieplenarie or generall Councels the former oftentimes are amended by the later when by any experiment of things that is open which was kept close and that is knowen which did lie hid What could haue beene more plainely spoken to bring into order not onely all mens writings but euen generall Councels also to be iudged by the Scriptures and not to iudge ouer the Scriptures Wherefore were it true that you so vainlie boast of that you had the consent of ancient Fathers and the Decrees of generall Councels for you yet were these no sure foundation to build our faith vpon Neither doe wee take it to be any disgrace vnto vs that we refuse to receiue our faith and vnderstanding in the mysterie of godlinesse from men because wee feare the curse which is against the man that trusteth in man and maketh flesh his arme yea rather wee account it an honour to vs both before God and man Ierem. â— â— that wee together with the whole true church of God are built vpon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets Iesus Christ himselfe being the head corner stone that we trie euerie spirit by the Scriptures whether it be of God or no that we prooue Eph. 2. 20. 1. Ioh. 4. 1. 1. Thes 5. 21. Act. 17. 11. Ioh. 5. 39. Esa 8. 20. all things as the men of Beraea did by searching the Scriptures according to the commaundement of Christ and holde that which is good that we haue recourse to the law and to the testimonie and whosoeuer speake not according to that word we holde them to be in darknesse and to haue no light in them From this hold you shall neuer driue vs and yet thanks be to God you haue hitherto beene beaten at your owne weapon and for the principall points of faith and religion haue beene put to silence by a cloud of testimonies both out of auncient Fathers and Councels howsoeuer your brasen foreheads cannot blush nor your leaden hearts relent but still you will crie Fathers Fathers Councels Councels PAPIST Secondly to giue more light and force to the former reason concerning the aucthoritie of Fathers I say that one or two or a few of them may be deceiued and therefore such particular opinions we admit not and so refuse S. Cyprian about rebaptization so we make no doubt but the vniforme and generall consent of them liuing in diuerse and farre distant places and at diuerse times cannot but proceede from the Spirit of all truth that gouerneth the Church and therefore S. Austine speaking of the Fathers that liued Contr. Iuli. lib. 2. cap. 10. before his time hath these excellent words That which they found in the Church they helde fast that which they learned they taught that which they receiued of their fathers the same they deliuered to their Children S. Paul likewise saith that Christ hath Eph. 4. 11. 14. giuen Pastors and Doctors that flourished in the primitiue church and the Protestants cannot deuie but that with their pens and labours they did defend the faith against the Arians Pelagians Donatistes and manie more such pestilent heretikes PROTESTANT First we haue shewed you before that by the iudgement of Cardinall Caietane whom Andradius defends in it it is lawfull yea and necessarie sometimes in interpretation of Scriptures to leaue the streame of the Fathers and follow a diuerse interpretation from them all which might at no hand be admitted if as you presume wherein they generally consent they had beene all guided by the spirit of truth Andradius doth not onely say so but giues good reason for it The literall sense of Scripture saith he doth onelie yeeld arguments to confirme points of religion But the Fathers in infinite staies of the old testament chieflie do leaue the literall sense and follow the tropologicall or allegoricall sense In deciding of Doctrines then which is to be done by the litterall sense what helpe shall we haue from the consent of Fathers who very seldome giue the litterall sense Another reason hee giues that the Fathers in giuing the sense of Scriptures haue giuen verie diuerse sense and vnlike one to another Where then shall wee finde that generall and vniforme consent that you speake of Secondly the spirit of all truth neither guideth the whole church nor any member therof otherwise or by any other instinct then by from the holy Scriptures whereby euery spirit is to be tried So farre then as the Fathers either seuerally or ioyntly doe accord with the manifest truth of Scriptures we follow them without doubting whatsoeuer they deliuer swaruing manifestly from the Scriptures we leaue what they haue probably spoken we receiue as probable alwaies reuerencing their antiquitie gifts and labours but not accounting their iudgements the rule of our faith Thirdly you much abuse S. Augustine in drawing his words which yet serue not your turne from his meaning Lib. 3. cap. 7. manifestly set downe in other places Depeccat merit remiss hauing before alleaged against the Pelagians Cyprian Ierome he addeth this caueat I haue not recited these things to anie such end as if we leaned to the sentences of anie disputers whatsoeuer they were as to Canonicall authoritie but that
of all godly Christians that dote not vpon Popish idols the name mage either to represent God or to worship God or Saint withall is become as odious as the name Idoll and nothing diuerse from it And because the notorious idols of Poperie are in their language called images and holy images being indeede most accursed idols not without good cause did that religious Translator turne the Greeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 into Iusages in English that English men might beware of Popish images which are Idols Neither is the alteration of the terme in a later translation any correction of the former but a variation onely intending still still the terme Idols to extend it selfe to Popish images as well as heathenish as you Papists and all men doe well enough perceiue and know Thirdly your owne vulgar translation hath Filioli custodite vos a simulachris which what is it else in English but Babes keepâ— your selues from images For howsoeuer you shift about this word also and would haue the true notation of it giuen by Lactantius that it hath his name à similitudine that De Orig. erro lib. 2. cap. 2. is of likenesse and is all one with imago animage for so Lactantius manifestly confounds it and will needs haue it come onely à simulando of counterfeâ—ting or feming yet this poore shift will do you little good For euen this counterfeiting is not without likenesse whether the matter counterfeited haue a true being or a false The strange picture whereof Horace speaketh De arte poetica made with a womans head a horse necke with other parts borowed of other creatures and lastly a fishes taile though it be no likenesse of any thing that hath a being yet is it a likenesse if of no more then of the Painters fansie Simulachrum therefore when you haue sayd all you can is an image and so much Doctor Fulke hath proued vnto you out of sundrie Authors As lawfully Against Greâ— Mattia cap. 1. sect 5. then might Tyndall translate from images as your vulgar à simulachris Lastly your vulgar translation hath in the second commandement Exod. 20. Similitudinem Lakenesse of any â—â—g which in the Hebrew is Temunah Arias Montanus translateth the same word Imagmem an image Deut. 4. 6. and your owne vulgar in the same place Non vidistus aliquam similitudinem in die qua locutus est vobiâ— Dominus in Oreb de medio ignis â—â— forte decepts faciatis vobis sculptam similitudinem â—ut imaginem omnium Iumentorum You savve no likenesse in the day vvherein the Lord spake vnto you out of Oreb out of the middest of the fire least you being deceiued make unto you any grauen likenesse or any â—mage of any beast c. And August Quest super Exod translateth the second Commandement thus Non facies tibi idôlum neque vllum simulachrum quaecunque in coelo sunt sursum wherehy it appeareth first that siâ—ulachrum imago differ not and therefore the vulgar translating simulachris we may translate images Secondly that God in the second commandement commandeth to make no image and therfore againe the Apostles dehortation being deduced out of the second Commandement Tyndall translated well and according to the â—Apostles meaning Babes or little children keepe your selues from Images Now then to what streits you are driuen that you haue no otherâ— way to maintaine your Imagerie and worshipping of Images then by such nice distinctions of imago and simulachrum of Imago and idôlum betweene which the Scriptures put no difference if your authenticall translation and Arias Montanus doe rightly translate I appeale to your owne consciences if you haue not sold them to maintaine idolatrie as Ieroboam did himselfe and to the indifferent iudgement of all that are not partiall PAPIST Likewise to bring the Shrines of Martyrs and holy reliques in contempt and to make simple people beleeue that it is an heathenish custome they translate thus in the said old Bible Demetrius a siluer smith that made siluer shrines for Diana Malitious corruptioÌ„ for in the text there is no mention of siluer shrines but of siluer temples and to the fore said later Bible truly translateth See hovv they can accommodate their Bibles to the time For when Images and shrines were yet standing in England or fresh in memorie they fitted their translations accordingly PROTESTANT To this pidling quarrell little answer needs The word in that place is rather to be vnderstood of some coine wherein the Image and temple of Diana was stamped then of any Temple or Shrine yet did not the old Translator without authority so translate For therein hee followed Homil. 42. in Act. Chrisostome who coÌ„ceiueth that they may be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Little Shrines But there is no neede to inforce this place against your idolatrie to Shrines of Saints and Relikes the Scriptures do largely affoord reasons proofes against it your seruice you do vnto theÌ„ your annexing of power and grace vnto them your trust you put in them are so many so grosse idolatries that without streyning any one place of Scripture the first and second commandement do aboundantly condemne them PAPIST As in these points the old translation is corrupt and the later better so in other things the later is false and the former true for example thus they translate Thou wilt not leaue my soule in Act. 2. 27. graue Malitious corruption against the descending of Christes soule into hell For it is contrarte to the originall text and the former translation of Tyndal PROTESTANT This cauilling obiection hath beene often made by you Papists and often answered as all men know and therfore it may seeme a vaine labour to trauaile in satisfying them that will accept no satisfaction Howbeit for their sakes that peraduenture haue seene your obiection but haue taken no paines to vnderstand the answere I will briefly set it downe if at least they will vouchsafe to heare it First therefore you cannot be ignorant that the Hebrue word Sheol doth in that tongue properly signifie the graue as the learned interpreters of that tongue do obserue and Doctor Fulke against Gregorie Martine hath maintained Pagnine giues that interpretation first as the naturall proprietie of the word and accordingly translateth Gen. 42. 38 Et descendere facutis meam canitiem cum dolore ad sepulchrum You will bring my gray head with sorrow to the graue And in this very place Psalm 16. 10. Quoniam non derelingues aniâ—ans meam in sepulchre Thou wilt not leaue my soule in graue And so likewise in other places as Gen. 37. 35. Iob. 17. 13. 1 King 2. 9. c. In all which places Arias Montanus altereth not his translation and your Louanian Censors haue approoued it Is it malitious corruption in our translations and not in yours Secondly by the interpretation of Peter and Paul Act. 2. 31 33. 13. 35. 36. 37. The Prophet here spake of Christs resurrection but