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A41015 Roma ruens Romes ruine : being a svccinct answer to a popish challenge concerning the antiquity, unity, universality, succession, and perpetuall visibility of the true church even in the most obscure times, when it seemed to be totally eclipsed in the immediate ages before Luther / by Daniel Featley ... Featley, Daniel, 1582-1645. 1644 (1644) Wing F592; ESTC R4369 68,281 80

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{non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} or rather we offer a commemoration of that sacrifice I● S. Chrys●stome had beleeved as you now do that the true body of Christ is properly offered and his blood truely shed in the daily sacrifice of the masse he should have corrected his former correction of himself and said what said I we rather offer a memoriall of Christs sacrifice nay rather we offer the very sacrifice it self Christs body and blood and that truely and properly 7. We teach that images may not be set up in churches to worship God by thē much lesse to worship the images themselvs you on the contrary maintain the erecting censing clothing kissing kneeling before and worshipping of images From which idolatry superstition how fat the church was in Constantines age appears by the canon of the councell of Eliberis the act of Epiphanius the judgement of Eusebius and the joynt testimony of Minutius Felix and Lactantius The 36 canon of the councell of Eliberis is very expresse against images and pictures in churches placuit picturas in ecclesia esse non debere ne quod colitur aut adoratur in parictibus depingatur It seemed good to us or we have determined that no images or pictures be in churches lest that which is worshiped and adored be painted on the walls When S. Epiphanius saw that canon neglected and the law of God violated in that poynt his zeal kind●ed within him he tare down a v●il rent it in the middle which he found hanging on the church walls at Anablathra because it had on it an image as it had bin of Christ or some saint More over he gave charge to those of that place not to hang up any more such veils against the expresse command of God Eusebius was no better affected to images then Epiphanius for in his epistle to Constantia who desired him to send her an image of Christ he contendeth by many arguments that no true image of Christ may be drawn neither according to his divine nature nor according to his humane not according to his divine because no man hath ●ver seen or can see that not according to his humane because we have learned that his humane nature or form of a servant is ●ingled with or united to the glory of his divine dignity and who will undertake with dead colours to expresse the brightnesse of that glory and dignitie Minutius Felix upon another reason dislikes the dedicating of any image to God put a● nos occultare quod credimus si delubra ar as non habemus quod enim simulacrum Deo fingam eum si recte existimes sit dei homo ipse simulacrum Dost thou think that we conceal what we worship because we have no place for images nor altars I pray what images shall I make to God seeing if we judge rightly man himself is Gods image Lactantius is warmer in the cause he concludes peremptorily that religion and images cannot stand together wherefore out of doubt there is no religion where there is an image therefore out of doubt none in your church where there are so many images for if religion be a divine thing and there is nothing divine but in things that are heavenly images therefore are voyd of religion because there can be nothing hea●enly in that thing which is of the earth The same Lactantius lib. 2. divinarum institut cap. 2. excludes all images even of the true God as needlesse and super●●uous the image of a man seems then to be needfull when the man himself i● away but it is of no use when he is present therefore the image of God is ever superfluous and of no use because his spirit and deity being every where present can never be absent from us You see he layes hard at your images and he endeavours as vehemently to blow out your wax lights They light candles to God as if he were in the dark can he be thought well in his wits who offers candles or wax lights to God for a gift who is the author and giver of all light If this strong breath of Lactantius being but single cannot blow out the lights that burn continually in your churches yet methinks the joynt and conspiring breath of all the fathers assembled in the councell at Eliberis cannot but puff them quite out It is to be forbidden that candles be publikely lighted if any do presume to do otherwise let them keep from the communion In fine to draw the arrow you have put into Constantines bow to the head against the errors and superstitions of your present Romish church prove to me by any good and uncontrolable testimony that publike service in an unknown tongue or masses without communicants or communion of the laity without the cup or making images of the three persons of the Trinity or worshipping images or crosses or selling pardo●● for the release of souls out of purgatory or elevation or circumgestation of the host in pompous procession or praying upon beads or hallowing meddals and Agnus Dei's or blessing salt spittle water c. or christening bells and gallies or going on pilgrimage to the images of Christ our Lady and other saints or whipping themselvs in penance for their own sins or the sins of others or such like customs and fites of your now Romish church were in practice in Constantine his time Prove that the treasury of saints merits and works of supererogation or unwritten traditions in matter of faith or justification before God by inherent righteousnes or any sin in its own nat●re veniall and not against the law of God but only beside it or esteeming the Apocryphall books of the old testament for canonicall scriptures or equalizing the Latin vulgat translation of the old and new testament to the originalls in Hebrew Greek or seven sacraments properly so called or the Popes infallibitie or his transcendent authority to gratifie or disannull the acts of generall councells to canonize saints to dispence with oaths and vows to depose kings and dispose of their kingdoms or the suspending the effect of the sacrament upon the intention of the priest or accidents without subjects or rats and mice eating Christs body or the putting it in many thousand places at once or any the like assertions of your Romish doctors were any part of Constantines beleef and the day shall be yours In the mean time if as your challenge and the promise of your friends deeply engage you you shall think of a reply to this my answer I require three things of you First that according to our Saviour his rule you mete the same measure to me which I mete to you by setting down my whole answers in my own words that the reader may see what you answer to each particular and what you balk as also how direct and pertinent your replyes shall be Secondly that you be not guilty of that which
hence argue that the Arrians were orthodox or the Nestorians Catholikes or the Sadduces right beleevers Did you never read in S. Hilary the ministers of antichrist are 〈◊〉 to 〈◊〉 of their unity in their impiety if you ever read it could you choose but reflect upon your self as for us though we desire nothing more than that we may think one thing and that as we all agree in the love of truth so we might all professe that truth in love yet when piety and unity truth and concord are divided we say with Nazianzen a godly discord is better than an ungodly concord it is better to dissent for truth than consent in errour Here if you reply that you argue not barely from consent but from consent in the truth you fall again to your begging trade you suppose that which is the main point in question and bears all before it prove your doctrine to be the truth of God and take all A man would think that there should not be heard so much as the noyse of an hāmer among your workmen who stand so much for unity If there should be differences even in matter of saith necessary to salvation among us as there are not our controversies are de fimbriis non de textu of the lace and fringe of ceremonies not of the queens vesture of gold wrought about with divers colours I say if there were differences amongst us in substantiall points of faith this could be no strong argument against us who make not unitie an inseparable note of the true church but it utterly overthrows your church in your own judgment who determine peremptorily that where there is not unity there is no true church but I assume there is not unity in doctrin of faith amongst you therefore out of your own mouth I conclude you have no true church Although like Samsons soxes you are all tyed by the tayl that is the conclusions de fide set down by your false prophet teaching lyes whom the prophet Esay warranteth us to call the tayl yet your heads are as far asunder as may be and you draw almost in every controversie of faith contrary ways casuist against ca●●ist and canonist against canonist and canonist against casuist Dominicans against Franciscans and Sorbonists against Dominicam and Jesuits against all Neither are these quarrels {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} but as Hercules his controversies was with Antens {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} about Scripture the rule of faith and Popes and councels the judges of faith and regenerating grace the cause of faith and justification the effect of faith and the sacraments the symbols of faith Your controversies are sharp and poinant and your differences irreconcilable you are at odds 1. Concerning scripture Some of you hold that the Jews have corrupted the originall of the old Testament as Iacobus episcop. Christop. and Canus and others deny it as Driedo and Bellarmine Some of you hold that the originall text of Greek and Hebrew are authenticall and that by them all translations are to be examined Others according to the strict letter of the Trent-canon hold the vulgar latin absolutely authenticall insomuch that no man quovis praeiextu upon any pretence whatsoever may reject it Some among you hold the books known by the name Apocrypha not to be of equall authoritie with the canonicall scriptures nor to be produced to ground any article of faith upon them Others carried away with the Trent-stream admit those apocryphall writings into the canon of scripture given by divine inspiration 2. Concerning the Decalogue Some of you teach that we are commanded to worship God even in the devill himself others disclaim this strange doctrin Some of you teach that the commandement non facies sculptile is not morall nor bindeth christians but part of the ceremoniall law and positive appertaining to Jewes onely others defend the contrary with us Some of you teach that images are not to be worshipped in themselvs or properly but only ratione prototyps in regard of the thing which they represent others defend that the image is to be worshipped in and for it self and not only in regard of the thing which it representeth Nay some blush not to maintain that the image is to be worshipped eodem cultus genere quo prototypon that is that the image of Christ is to be worshipped with the same worship wherewith we worship Christ to wit cultu latria that the image of the blessed Virgin is to be worshipped with the same worship wherewith we ought to worship the Virgin her self to wit cultu hyperdouliae that the images of saints are to be worshipped with the same worship wherewith the saints themselvs are to be worshipped to wit cultu doulia Some hold all equivocation before a magistrate to be unlawfull and forbidden in the commandement non dices falsum as being no better in plain english than a lye Others allow equivocation in divers cases 3. Concerning the blessed virgin Some earrestly maintain that she was conceived in sin as all the children of Adam are Christ only excepted others with as much vehe●●●cie both maintain the doctrin and celebrate the ●ea●● of her i●●●culane ●onception and though Sixtus the 4. took part with the Franc●… yet cardinall de Turre-Cremata writes for the D●… Mulciber in Trojam pr●●r●ja staba● Ap●ll● 4. Touching the grace of regeneration and the ●p●ration thereof in our conversion Some teach that it worketh physicè and determineth the will others teach that it worketh onely ●…liter standing as it were at the devotion of the will to admit of it or refuse it to be converted by it or not 5. Touching justification Som teach that we are not justified by our inherent righteousnesse as Pighius and o●he●s cited out of Vega others follow the common tenet affirming that the righteousnesse by which we are justified before God is not Christs imputed but out inherent righteousnesse 6. Touching certainty of salvation The learned know C●…rinus hath written in this point agreeable to the doctrine of the reformed churches as also how Dominious S●●● impug●eth his opinion 7. Touching marriage Some hold it lawfull for the innoce●t partie to marry after divorce for adultery others hold it utterly unl●wfull 8. Touching merit of works Some hold that the work● of a man in the state of grace merit ex condigno ratione operis eternall life others ex congruo onely and some utterly exclude all merit as they are cited out of Vega. 9. Touching sinns Some teach that all sins in their own nature are mortall others are for the schools distinction of v●●iall and mortall sinns 10. Touching the sacrament of the Lords supper Some teach that the body of Christ is made of the bread and allow of a kind of production in transubstantiation others defend transubstantiation by way of adduction not production Secondly so●e reach that the
the emperour though it were against his heart and conscience 6. For the canon of scriptures S. Gregory holds the book of Maccabees in the same rank as we do profitable to he read for the edification of the church but not to be produced as inspired by God and of infallible authority for the confirmation of any poynt of faith for being to alledge a testimony out of those books he makes way for it by this preface de qua re non inordinatè agimus si ex libris licet non canonicis sed tamen ad adificationem ecclesia editis testimonium proferamus touching which matter we do not amisse if we bring forth a testimony out of those books viz. the book of Maccabees there cited which though they are not canonicall yet they are set forth for the edification and instruction of the church 7. For adoration of images he detests it as much as we see his epistles upon record si quis imaginem facere voluerit minimè prohibe adorare vero imagines omnibus modis devita If any man will make an image forbid him not but by all means avoyd the worshipping of images Who will now be a papist when we see the Pope is become a zealous Calvinist 8. Touching merit of works S. Gregory teacheth as we do that we ought not to repose any confidence in our own merits non in fletibus non in actis nostris sed in advocati nostri allegatione confidamus let us not trust in our own weeping and bewayling of our sins nor in our own acts but in the intercession of our advocate and upon Iob si ad virtutis opus excrevero ad vitam non ex meritis sed ex venia convalesco If I grow to any work of vertue I am restored to life not by merits but by pardon I forbear to alledgemore testimonies out of S. Gregory touching this poynt because those many clear passages which I have produced out of him before against the perfection of inherent righteousnesse by a necessary consequence overthrow all merit of works also 9. Touching certainty of salvation S. Gregory conspireth with the doctrin of the reformed church for having alledged certain promises of Christ in the gospel to found it upon thus he concludes hac it aque fulti certitudine de redemptoris nostri misericordia nihil ambigere sed spe debemus indubit at a praesumere non enim muneris sui largitate frustrabitur Deus sed vires obtinendi prorsus indulget qui velle concessit nam jam ipsum desiderant oppetere donum est that is therefore being supported with this certainty we ought not to doubt c. Gregories doctrin like ours at this day is a doctrin of faith and confidence whereas the doctrin of the church of Rome at this day is a doctrin of distr●… of diffidence 10. Touching the power of calling synods or ecclesiasticall assemblies which you now arrogate to the Pope in S. Gregory his time as a●●ay before it was in the emperours and christian princes agreeable to the t●●et of the present church of England S. Gregory taketh notice of the emperour his masters command for the assembling of a synod in Rome it self juxta Christianissimi serenissi●i rerum domini jussionem ad beati Petri apostoli limina cum tuis sequacibus venire to volumus ut Authore Deo aggregata synodo de eaqua inter not vertitur dub●etate quod justum fuerit judicetur According to the command of our most christian and ●ra●ions Lord we require thee to appear at S. Peters c. 11. Touching the definition of the church you scoff at us for ●efining the true and most proper church of Christ which we beleeve in the creed to be the whole number of Gods elect You term it an Idea Platonica or an aēreall and invisible body a Chymaera or Phantasme and yet S. Gregory describes the church as we do Christus secundum praescientiae suae gratiam sanctam ecclesiam de sanctis in aeternum permansuris extruxit Christ according to the grace of his fore-knowledge hath built on holy church of saints eternally persevering in grace and upon Ezck una ecclesia est electorum praecedentium atque sequentium There is one church of the elect going before and following after 12. Touching the blessed sacrament of the Lords Supper to be administred in both kinds it is evident that in * S. Gregories time the whole congregation consisting of the laity as well as the clergie participated of the holy cup his words are pretiost sanguinis effusione genus humanum Chris●us redemit sacro-sancti vivifici corporis sui sanguinis mysterium membris suis tribuit cujus perceptione corpus suum quod est ecclesia pascitur potatur abluitur sanctificatur Christ by the effusion of his most precious blood redeemed all mankind and giveth to his members the mystory of his most holy quickning body and blood by the participation whereof his body which is the church is nourished with meat and drink and is washed and sanctified Mark I beseech you that S. Gregory●ith not lib. 4. Dial. cap. 58. he giveth to his members in the participation of the sacrament his body and blood for meat and drink but the mystery of his body and blood as elsewhere he speaketh in Evang. Hom. 14. Realiter passus Christus i●cruce in mysterio patitur quoties ecclesia mil●●ns sacr●● 〈◊〉 celebrat hoc facit in servatoris sui com●●morationem Christ having suffered really upon the crosse suffereth in a mystery as 〈◊〉 as the church celebrateth his holy supper and this she doth in remembrance of her Saviour By comparing of which places any man may perceive what S. Gregory meaneth by a mystery when he opposeth it to that which was done really I leave it to you to make the inference And now to poynt these weapons drawn out of S. Gregories armory and rub them over with the oyl of your eloquence the saith of S. Gregory was never noted to differ from the common received faith of christendom in those days as appeareth by the severall epistles of the said S. Gregory to the bishops of Europe Asia and Africa with all whom he had communion of faith so as if Christ had a catholike church on earth as needs he must S. Gregory was of it and being then a true church 〈◊〉 say holding still the same tenots it must needs be so now Gods truth being like unto him without change and therefore if an angel should c●me from heaven to teach us any other doctrin then that which we have received from S. Gregory we are not to hear him If an angell therefore from heaven teach that the books of Maccabees are canonicall or that the Pope or any other bishop may have the stile of oecumenicall bishop or supream head over all bishops or that our best works are not imperfect or defective