or the hauing of it corrupted In the which respect Christ who giueth charge that his sheepe be fedde chargeth that they be taught to obserue those thinges which he commanded his Apostles And Peter hauing shewed that the faithfull are begotten a new by Gods word exhorteth them to desire the milke of the word the sincere milke not corrupt with any trumperie that they may grow thereby And they who are warned to heare the Pharises sitting in the chaire of Moses are warned to beware of the leauen of the Pharises Wherefore a church that will be whole and sound must neither be famished with want of Gods worde nor haue it corrupted But the church of Rome doth bring in both corruption and want of the worde nor onely bring them in but also maintaine them obstinatly as wholesome The church of Rome therefore is not whole and sound nay she séemeth rather to be madde frantike For she bringeth in corruption of the worde to beginne with that by mingling and adulterating the word of God with mans word not one way but sundrie First in that she giueth autoritie canonicall that is diuine autoritie to the bookes called apocrypha which are humane Against the truth of the holy scripture which is gainsaid flatly by certaine pointes in the apocrypha against the cléere euidence of thinges therein recorded which by their repugnancie one vnto another doo shew that men were autours of them against the consent iudgement of the church of the old church wholy and of the best part of the new Secondly in that she receyueth traditions of men with equall reuerence and religious affection as she doth the scripture As though the holy scripture the most exact perfect squire of Gods will and rule of righteousnesse and wisedome sufficed not for faith and maners or the spirit of God could gainsay him selfe which must be imported by this of traditions some whereof do fight one against another some against the scripture In sooth this point is handled with a dutifull care and regarde of scripture which hath no greater reuerence at Rome then traditions and that all traditions are not obserued there it is playne by the Fathers whom them selues alleage Thirdly in that she willeth the Latin translation of the Bible commonly called S. Ieroms to be receiued throughout as sacred and canonicall and not to be refused on any pretense Whereas yet to let go the iudgement of S. Ierom other ancient Fathers the Papists them selues such as are most expert in the toungs amongst them acknowledge that translation to haue missed sometimes the meaning of the holy Ghost and not the words onely Euen Pagninus namely in the old testament Budaeus in the new Andradius and Arias Montanus in them both Fourthly in that about expounding of the scripture she condemneth all senses and meanings thereof which are against the sense that her selfe holdeth or against the Fathers consenting all in one Whereby it falleth out that the sense and meaning of the holy Ghost shall be refused often but meanings and senses deuised by men though crossing one an other yet if they be currant for the time and practised as a Cardinall saith shall go for authenticall the baggage which the Schoole men haue sâ—iled Diuinitie with out of the Philosophers puddles and their owne shall be accounted holy the things which some Fathers haue handled more soundly shal be set aside as humane inuentions though they agrée with Gods word but other in the which they were ouerséene through weaknes of naturall affection or reason shall be approued as Gods worde though they procéede from mans fansie Fifthly in that she coopleth with the commandements of God the commandements of the church that is to say of men and that is more she coopleth therewith these commandements not as things indifferent but as necessarie to saluation So what soeuer filth deuotion as it is named indéede superstition hath brought or shall bring in that must be déemed to be pure religion and in vaine shall the Lord be worshipped of vs as of the Iewes in olde time with the commandements of men and good intentes as they call them which are abominable to God shall be preferred before obedience voluntarie religion condemned by the scriptures shall be taken vp as a most holy seruice of the Lord. Last of all in that she appointeth images to be had in churches for the instruction of the people as bookes so one supposeth which idiotes may reade in O miserable idiotes the instructing of whom is committed to a stocke which instructeth to vanities whose teacher is an image that is a teacher of lyes if we beléeue the Prophets And is it any maruell if they be naughtie scholers whose masters are dumbe idols the doctours of errours The church of Rome therefore hath brought in such corruption of the word of God what by the apocrypha what by traditions what by faultes of the translation what by the sense of her holding what by commandements of the church what by the teachers of idiotes that she séemeth to haue mingled the sustenance of life not with filth but with poyson and the wine of God not with water but with venoome and the bread of Christ not with leauen but with rats-bane or rather if I might speake so mens-bane As for want of Gods word which is the other cause of sicknesse how wretchedly she hath pined her children therewith our auncestours felt by long experience and aged men may remember and histories of the church doo witnesse and they who are vnder the Popish yoke know For though she permitted sometimes in some places perhaps a small parcell of the word of God if I may call that Gods word which sauoured more of mens deuises then of God to be touched in the presence and assembly of the people by common cryers preachers such as they were yet she hath not onely not permitted to Christians but also hath hindered with no lesse impietie then inhumanitie yea and hindereth still that abundance and plentie which they ought to haue as it is writen Let the worde of Christ dwell in you plenteously with all wisedome For whereas this plenty is gotten obteined by two speciall meanes to weete by hearing by reading the one commanded all in Church-assemblies publikely the other allowed priuatly to euery man at home both vsed and approued by the rules of the holy Ghost and the practise of holy companies and the iudgement of holy churches our Romanists pretending that horrible confusion will ensue thereof and the church of Christ shall be like to Babylon not to Ierusalem as Cardinall Hosius saith if the holy scriptures be read in mother toongs doo kéepe them sealed vp in a straunge toong and sound them out so in their Church-assemblies that
infallible the councels interpretation And these meanes he saith are the onely certaine sure infallible meanes of vnderstanding and expounding the Scripture aright As for other meanes which learned men do vse such as you obserued out of S. Austin he graunteth they are profitable but deceitfull many waies if ech of them be seuerally taken by it selfe Which he proueth in particular by the chiefest of them first the weighing of circumstances what goeth before what commeth after next the wordes and kinde of speeches vsed in the Scriptures thirdly the conferēce of places togither one to be lightned by an other fourthly recourse to the fountaines of the Greeke and the Hebrue text Wherefore though I acknowledge your way to be a good way and such as I am well content to walke in when these our waies shall lead me to it notwithstanding sith it is common to vs with all Heretikes yea with Iewes and Painims who do all conferre places obserue the kinde of spéeches looke on the Gréeke and Hebrue fountaines marke what goeth before what commeth after and such like thinges and yet they are verye farre from the true vnderstanding of the scriptures I will my selfe practise it when I shall see good but there is no reason of yours that can enforce me to allow it simply Rainoldes The treatise of your Doctor against the Protestants opinion is like the army of Antiochus prepared against the Romans verie great and huge of men of many nations but white liuered souldiours neither so strong with armour as glistering with gold and siluer Antiochus him selfe was amazed at it and thought it vnuincible so did the simple fooles of his country too But the Romans contemned it and Annibal iested at it The name of Protestants which he vseth tauntingly as all one with Heretikes wée are no more ashamed of then were the Prophets and Apostles whom the Spirit of God hath honored with that title because they did make a protestation of their faith vpon the like occasion as did the faithfull in Germany when they were noted by that name The Protestants opinion I haue alreadie shewed to be the opinion of the auncient Protestants the Fathers the Apostles the holie Ghost who spake by them If you call it an errour we are content to erre with them If he thinke it an heresie we are no better then Paul who in such heresie serued God The ground which he layeth for the disproofe of it is such that it séemeth his wits and he had made a fray when he layed it He saith that the scripture ought to be expounded by the rule of faith and therfore not by scripture onely Which is in effect as if a man should say the church must be taught by liuing creatures endued with reason and therefore not by men onely For as a liuing creature endued with reason and a man is all one which euerie childe knoweth by the principles of logicke so the rule of faith and scripture is all one doth not your Doctor know it It is a principle of diuinitie deliuered by S. Austin whom he pretendeth chiefly in this point to follow Hart. And doth he not follow him Doth he not alleage S. Austins owne wordes In a doubtfull place of scripture let a man seeke the rule of faith which rule hee hath learned of plainer places of the scriptures and of the authoritie of the church to proue that the rule of faith must be fetched out of the authoritie of the church also not out of scriptures onely Rainoldes Yes he doth alleage S. Austins wordes in déed but as the false witnesses alleaged Christes wordes of destroying the temple and building it in three dayes the wordes against the meaning Which tricke the law noteth as an abusing of the lawe yet is it common with your Doctor For as Christ when he spake of raising the temple by the temple meant his bodie the witnesses did wrest it to the temple of Ierusalem so the authoritie of the church is mentioned by S. Austin as teaching scriptures onely your Doctor alleageth it as teaching somewhat beside the scriptures Hart. This is strange that S. Austin by the authoritie of the church meant no more then by the plainer places of the scriptures For so much you séeme to say in effect Rainoldes Be it strange yet is it true For him selfe declareth that to be his meaning not onely by the rest of his whole treatise wherein he doth establish the scriptures alone for the rule of faith to shew the sense of doubtfuller places by the plainer but also by the ende of this your owne sentence which Stapleton in alleaging it either negligently passed or craftily suppressed vnlesse the fault perhaps be in some other with whose eyes he read it For after these wordes let him seeke the rule of faith which rule he hath learned of plainer places of the scriptures and of the authoritie of the church it followeth in S. Austin Of which rule we haue sufficiently entreated in the first booke when we spake of thinges Now in that discourse to which he referreth vs he spake not of any thing as taught by the church but what is in the scripture Wherefore in these wordes by the authoritie of the church he meant not any thing beside the scripture If he did shew it If he did not acknowledge it Hart. He did For in the first booke where he spake of things hee shewed that the doctrine of the Trinitie is comprised in that rule of faith Which yet is not expresly set downe in the scriptures Rainoldes Expresly What meane you by this word expresly Hart. I meane that it is not expressed in the scriptures Rainoldes What Not the doctrine of the blessed Trinitie the Father the Sonne and the holie Ghost Hart. Not all that our faith doth hold of the Trinitie Rainoldes God forbid that we should hold of such a mysterie more then he teacheth by his word Hart. Certainly S. Austin writing to an Arian who denied that God the sonne is consubstantiall with the Father saith that as we reade not in the holie scriptures the Father vnbegotten yet it is defended that it must be said in lyke sort it may be that neither consubstantiall is founde written there and yet being said in the assertion of faith may bee defended And again disputing against Maximinus a Bishop of the Ariās Giue me testimonies saist thou where the holy Ghost is worshipped as though by those things which we do read we vnderstood not some thinges also which wee reade not But that I be not inforced to seeke many where hast thou read God the Father vnbegotten or vnborne And yet it is true Rainoldes And thinke you that S. Austin meant by these spéeches that the scriptures teach not that God the holy Ghost is to be worshipped God the Sonne is of one substance with the Father God the Father is
not begotten or borne Hart. Hée séemeth to haue meant it And Torrensis who gathered S. Austins Confession out of all his workes alleageth these places to proue that Christians ought to belieue manie things which haue come to vs from the Apostles themselues deliuered as it were by hand although they bee not written expresly in scriptures Rainoldes The Iesuit Torrensis dooth great wrong herein to the truth of God to S. Austins credit and to you who reade him And yet with such a sophisme in the word expresly that if it should be laid vnto his charge he would wash his handes of it as Pilate did of Christes blood For he alleageth those places of S. Austin thereby to proue Traditions as though we had receiued that doctrine touching God by tradition vnwritten not by the written word S. Austin no such matter But dealing with an Arian who required the verie word consubstantiall to be shewed in scripture doth tell him that the thing it selfe is there founde though not that word perhaps Wherevpon he presseth him in like sort with the word vnbegotten which the Arian hauing giuen to God the Father and defending it S. Austin replieth that as he had termed the Father vnbegotten well although the word not written so might the Sonne also be termed consubstantiall sith the scripture proueth the thing meant therby And as with this Arian so with their bishop Maximinus Who hauing himself termed God the Father vnbegotten or vnborne denied the holie Ghost to be equall to the Sonne because it is not written that he is worshipped To the which cauill of his S. Austin answereth that although it be not written in flat termes yet is it gathered by necessarie consequence of that which is written Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God the holy Ghost is God therefore to bee worshipped Thus S. Austins meaning was of these pointes that the scripture teacheth them Whereby you may perceiue the fraude of Torrensis Who saying that they are not expresly written in the scriptures left him selfe this refuge that hee might say they are not in expresse wordes though for sense and substance they are in the scriptures And yet by referring that title to traditions induceth his reader to thinke that they are taught by tradition not by scripture A doctrine which Arians will clappe their handes at that the Sonne of God is not by scripture of one substance with the Father But let it be far from you M. Hart to thinke so prophanely of the word of God And if you rest so much on Doctors of your owne side rest here on Thomas of Aquine rather who saith that concerning God wee must say nothing but that which is founde in the holie scripture either in words or in sense Which as he confirfirmeth by Denys and Damascen so was it the common iudgement of the Fathers of S. Austin chiefly as his bookes touching the Trinitie doo shew And in the conclusion thereof for euident proofe of that which you denied he giueth the name of the rule of faith to that which is plainly set downe in scripture of the Trinitie Wherfore the scripture cōpriseth the rule of faith for that point And as for that point so for all the rest which in that very booke whereof we spake S. Austin noteth It remaineth therfore that S. Austin meant not by the authoritie of the church more then he signified by plainer places of the scriptures Hart. Yes his own words in that verie sentence doo yéeld sufficient proofe me thinkes that he did For if he signified by plainer places of the scriptures as much as he meant by the authoritie of the church then was it idle when he had named the one to adde the other to it chiefly in such sort as that is added by S. Austin For both the coniunction the places of scriptures and the authoritie of the church should import thinges different and I may say of wordes as the Philosopher saith of things That is done in vaine by more that may be done by fewer Rainoldes Nothing is done in vaine that is done to edifie The church might well be mentioned as an interpreter of the worde though it teach not any thing beside the word of God The people of Israel did beleeue the Lord and his seruaunt Moses yet Moses did nothing but that the Lorde commaunded him The wise man doth charge his sonne to hearken to the instruction of his father and forsake not the doctrine of his mother yet they both the father and mother teach one lesson the chiefest wisedome the feare of God The same is fulfilled in this Moses and the Lord or rather in this mother and our heauenly Father of whom it hath bene said well He cannot haue God to be his Father who hath not the church to be his mother For God hauing purposed to make vs his children and heires of life eternall as he prepared his word to be first the séede the immortall seed of which we are begotten a new afterward the milke the sincere milke whereby wee béeing borne grow so he ordeined the church by her ministerie to teach it as it were a mother first to conceaue and bring foorth the children afterward to nourish them as babes new borne with her milke Which appeareth as by others so chiefly by S. Paul who traueiled of them in childbirth whom he sought to conuert and when they were new borne he nourished them with milke to set before our eyes the duetie of the church and all the churches Ministers in bearing children vnto Christ. Now the milke which the church giueth to her children shée giueth it out of her brestes and her two brestes are the two testaments of the holie scriptures by S. Austins iudgement the old Testament and the new S. Austin therefore saying the rule of faith is receiued of the authoritie of the church meant not that the church should deliuer any thing but onely what shee draweth out of the holie scriptures Hart. Not for milke perhaps which babes are to sucke but for strong meate wherewith men are nourished For mothers féede not their children being growne with mylke out of theyr brestes Rainoldes But S. Austin addeth that the holy scriptures haue both milke for babes and strong meat for men milke in plainer thinges and easier to be vnderstood strong meate in harder and greater mysteries Yea where Christ said that euerye Scribe which is taught vnto the kingdome of heauen is lyke vnto an housholder who bringeth foorth out of his treasure thinges both newe and olde S. Austin iudgeth that hée meant by newe thinges and olde the olde and newe testament Wherefore sith euery pastor and teacher of the church is meant you graunt by this Scribe it foloweth by S. Austin that the meate which he is to fetch out of his storehouse for the
which they did gather of those wordes then might we know the times whereof our Sauiour saith that it is not for man to knowe them And vpon this reason S. Austin doth reproue that fansie of sixe thousand yeares as rash and presumptuous Hart. So doo we also For Lindan and Prateolus doo note it in Luthers and Melanchthons Chronicles as a Iewish heresie Rainoldes Good reason when Luther and Melanchthon write it But when Irenaeus Hilarie Lactantius and other Fathers write it what doo they note it then Hart. Suppose it were an ouersight But what néedes all this As who say you douted that we would maintaine the Fathers in those things in which they are conuicted of error by the scriptures Rainoldes I haue cause to dout it For though there be no man lightly so profane as to professe that he will doo so yet such is the blindnes o◠mens deuotion to Saintes there haue béene heretofore who haue so done and are still There is a famous fable touching the assumption of the blessed virgin that when the time of her death approched the Apostles then dispersed throughout the world to preach the gospell were taken vp in cloudes and brought miraculously to Ierusalem to be present at her funerall This tale in olde time was writen in a booke which bare the name of Melito an auncient learned Bishop of Asia though he wrote it not be like But whosoeuer wrote it he wrote a lye saith Bede because his words gaine say the wordes of S. Luke in the actes of the Apostles Which Bede hauing shewed in sundrie pointes of his tale he saith that he reherseth these thinges because he knoweth that some beleeue that booke with vnaduised rashnesse against S. Lukes autoritie So you sée there haue béene who haue beléeued a Father yea perhaps a rascall not a Father against the scriptures And that there are such still I sée by our countrymen your diuines of Rhemes who vouch the same fable vpon greater credit of Fathers then the other but with no greater truth Hart. Doo you call the assumption of our Ladie a fable What impietie is this against the mother of our Lord that excellent vessell of grace whom all generations ought to call blessed But you can not abide her prayses and honours Nay you haue abolished not onely her greatest feast of her assumption but of her conception and natiuitie too So as it may bee thought the diuell beareth a special malice to this woman whose seede brake his head Rainoldes It may be thought that the diuell when he did striue with Michael about the bodie of Moses whom the Lord buried the Iewes knew not where did striue that his bodie might bee reuealed to the Iewes to the entent that they might worship it and commit idolatrie But it is out of doubt that when he moued the people of Lystra to sacrifice vnto Paul and Barnabas and to call them Gods he meant to deface the glory of God by the too much honouring and praysing of his Saintes We can abide the prayses of Barnabas and Paule but not to haue them called Gods We can abide their honours but not to sacrifice vnto them Wee know that the diuell doth beare a speciall malice both to the woman and to the womans seed But whether he doth wreake it more vpon the séede by your sacrificing of prayses and prayers to the woman or by our not sacrificing let them define who know his policies The Christians of old time were charged with impietie because they had no Gods but one This is our impietie For whatsoeuer honour and prayse may bee giuen to the Saintes of God as holy creatures but creatures we doo gladly giue it We thinke of them all and namely of the blessed virgin reuerently honourably We desire our selues and wish others to folow her godly faith and vertuous life We estéeme her as an excellent vessell of grace We call her as the scripture teacheth vs blessed yea the most blessed of all women But you would haue her to be named and thought not onely blessed her selfe but also a giuer of blessednesse to others not a vessell but a fountaine or as you entitle her a mother of grace and mercy And in your solemne prayers you doo her that honour which is onely due to our creator and redeemer For you call on her to defend you from the enimie and receiue you in the houre of death Thus although in semblance of wordes you deny it yet in déede you make her equall to Christ as him our Lord so her our Ladie as him our God so her our Goddesse as him our King so her our Queene as him our mediator so her our mediatresse as him in all thinges tempted like vs sinne excepted so her deuoide of all sinne as him the onely name whereby we must be saued so her our life our ioy our hope a very mother of orphans an aide to the oppressed a medicine to the diseased and to be short all to all Which impious worship of a Sainte because you haue aduanced by keping holy dayes vnto her the feastes of her conception natiuitie assumption therefore are they abolished by the reformed Churches iustly For the vse of holy dayes is not to worship Saintes but to worship God the sanctifier of Saintes As the Lorde ordeined them that men might meete together to serue him and heare his worde Hart. Why keepe you then still the feastes of the Apostles Euangelists other Saintes and not abolish them also As some of your reformed or rather your deformed Churches haue doon Rainoldes Our deformed Churches are glorious in his sight who requireth men to worship him in spirite truth though you besotted with the hoorish beauty of your synagogues doo scorne at their simplenesse as the proude spirite of Mical did at Dauid when he was vile before the Lord. The Churches of Scotland Flanders France and others allow not holy dayes of Saintes because no day may be kept holy but to the honour of God Of the same iudgement is the Church of England for the vse of holy dayes Wherefore although by kéeping the names of Saintes dayes we may séeme to kéepe them to the honour of Saintes yet in déede we kéepe them holy to God onely to prayse his name for those benefits which he hath bestowed on vs by the ministerie of his Saintes And so haue the Churches of Flanders and Fraunce expounded well our meaning in that they haue noted that some Churches submit them selues to their weakenesse with whome they are conuersant so farre foorth that they keepe the holy dayes of Saintes though in an other sorte nay in a cleane contrarie then the Papists doo Hart. But if you kéepe the feastes of other Saintes in that sorte why not
no more to Popes then to other Bishops 2 The Pope may erre in doctrine 3 not only as a priuate man but as Pope 4 yea preach false doctrine also For 5 â—he may be a theefe a robber a woolfe 6 and erre not in person only but in office too as it is proued in euery part of his office 7 with aunswere to the replie made against the proofes for the defense of him therein 8 The succession of Popes hath bene preuailed against by the gates of hell 9 and when the gates of hell preuailed not against them their rocke did argue foundnesse of faith not the supremacie Pag. 277. The eighth Chapter The autoritie 1 of traditions and Fathers pretended to proue the Popes supremacie in vaine beside the scripture which is the onely rule of faith The Fathers 2 being heard with lawfull exceptions that may bee iustly taken against them 3 doo not proue it As it is shewed first in Fathers of the Church of Rome By the way 4 the name of Priest the Priestly sacrifice of Christians the Popish sacrifice of Masse-priestes the proofes brought for the Masse the substance and ceremonies of it are laid open And so it is declared that 5 nether the ancient Bishops of Rome them selues 6 nor any other Fathers doo proue the Popes supremacy Pag. 452. The ninth Chapter 1 The Church is the piller and ground of the truth The common consent and practise of the Church before the Nicen Councell 2 the Councell of Nice 3 of Antioche of Sardica of Constantinople Mileuis Carthage Afrike 4 ofEphesus of Chalcedon ofConstantinople eftsoones and of Nice of Constance and of Basill with the iudgements of Vniuersities and seuerall Churches throughout Christendome condemning all the Popes supremacie Pag. 652. The tenth Chapter 1 Princes are supreme gouernours of their subiectes in thinges spirituall and temporall and so is the othe of their supremacie lawfull 2 The breaking of the conference off M. Hart refusing to proceede farther in it Pag. 669. The first Chapter 1 The occasion of the conference the circumstances and poyntes to be debated on 2 The ground of the first poynt touching the head of the Church Wherein how that title belongeth vnto Christ how it is giuen to the Pope and so what is meant by the Popes supremacie RAINOLDES You haue heard maister Hart from the Right honorable M. Secretarie Walsyngham the cause why he hath sent for me to come vnto you to conferre with you concerning matters of religion for the better informing of your conscience and iudgement In the which respect you signified vnto him your selfe to bee willing to conferre with any man so that you might be charitably and Christianly dealt withall Hart. In deede I did signifie so much to M. Secretarie neither am I vnwilling to do that I haue promised Howbeit I wish rather that if a conference be purposed the learned men of our side whome we haue many beyond sea might be sent for hether of riper yeares and sounder iudgement As for mée the condition of conference with you is somewhat vn-euen For I lie in prison and am adiudged to dye the closenesse of the one terror of the other doth dull a mans spirits and make him very vnfitte for study I neither am of great yeares nor euer was of great reading and yet of that which I haue read I haue forgotten much by reason of my long restraint I am destitute of bookes we are not permitted to haue any at all sauing the Bible onely You of the other side may haue bookes at will and you come fresh from the vniuersitie whereby you are the readier to vse them and alleage them These are great disaduantages for me to enter into conference with you Neuerthelesse I am content as I haue said to do it so that my wantes may be supplied with furniture of bookes such as I shall desire Rainoldes The learned men of your side it lyeth not in me to procure hether I would to God none of them had euer come from Rome with traiterous intente nay more then intent to moue rebellion against our Soueraine and arme the subiectes against the Prince It had fared better both with you and others who came from him that sent them Your imprisonment and daunger which hath hereon ensued I can more easily pittie then relieue I wish you were at libertie so that her highnes were satisfied whome you haue offended The condition of conference the which is offred you is not so vn-euen in deede as in shew For although I come fresh from the vniuersitie yet I come from one of those vniuersities wherin your selues report that few of vs do study and those few that study study but a few questions of this time onely and that so lightly that we be afeard to reason with common Catholikes or if we do reason the common sort of Catholikes are able to answere all our arguments and to say also more for vs then wee can say for our selues You of the other side haue béene brought vp in one of those Seminaries wherein all trueth is studied the maisters teach all trueth the schollers learne all truth the course of diuinitie which our students nay our Doctors and Readers can not tel almost what it meaneth is read ouer in foure years with so great exactnes that if a man follow his study diligently he may become a learned Diuine and take degree Yea besides the Lectures of positiue Diuinitie of Hebrue of controuersies of Cases of conscience the Lecture of Scholasticall Diuinitie alone wherein the whole bodie of perfit Theologie doth consist doth teach within the same foure yeares all the poyntes of Catholike faith in such sort that thereby the hearers come to vnderstand not only what is in the scriptures about a matter of faith but also whatsoeuer is in all the Tomes of Councels wrytings of Fathers volumes of Ecclesiastical histories or in any other Author worthie the reading Wherefore sith you haue heard this course of diuinitie and haue béene admitted to take degree therein vpon the hearing of it you may not alleage vnripenes of yeares or reading or iudgement especially against me before whome in time so long in place so incomparable you tooke degrée in diuinitie if yet our degrées may goe for degrées the Pope hauing depriued vs of them But you haue no bookes sauing the Bible onely You are it is likely the redier in that booke chiefly sith at Rhemes beside your priuat studie of it you were exercised in it dayly by reading ouer certaine Chapters wherein the hard places were all expounded the doubtes noted the controuersies which arise betwixt you and vs resolued the arguments which our side can bring vnto the contrarie perspicuously and fully answered So that with this armour you are the more strongly prepared against me who can be content to deale with you in conference by that booke alone as by the booke of all trueth Notwithstanding though
the lesser it appeareth by the controuersie betwéene Austin and Ierom concerning the reproofe of Peter whether Paule rebuked him in earnest as blameworthie or dissembled with him and made a duetifull lie which Ierom termed an honest policie For your selues graunt that Austin who thought that Paule reproued him in earnest did iudge therin more soundly truely then Ierom did who thought that he dissembled Yet Ierom alleaged more Fathers on his side and made so great account of them that he desired Austin to suffer him to erre with such men if he thought him to erre Whereupon S. Austin replyed that peraduenture hee might finde as manie Fathers on his side if he had read much But I saith he haue Paule the Apostle himselfe in stead of these all and aboue these all To him do I flie to him I appeale from all the Doctors his interpreters who are of other mindes Of him do I aske whereas he writeth to the Galatians that hee sawe Peter not going with a ryght foote to the truth of the Gospell and that hee withstood him to his face for it bicause by that dissembling hee constrayned the Gentiles to doo lyke the Iewes whether he wrote true or did lye perhaps with I know not what politike falshood And I do heare him a litle before making a very religious protestation in the beginning of the same discourse The thynges whych I write vnto you beholde I witnes before God I lye not Let them who are of other mindes pardon me I beleeue rather so great an Apostle swearing in his owne and for his owne words then anie man be he neuer so learned talking of the words of an other A wise and frée iudgement worthie of S. Austin Whereby you may perceiue that your rule of folowing the greater number of the Fathers in expounding the scriptures is but a leaden rule not fitte which should be vsed to square out stones by for building of the Lords temple Hart. This of Austin sheweth that we may vary sometimes from the greater number of the Fathers and refuse their iudgement But that as Torrensis hath obserued well must bee with two cautions One that the thing wherein we varie from them be a knowne truth The other that we do it with reuerence and modestie Rainoldes UUith reuerence and modestie God forbid else As Elihu reproued Iob as Paule reproued Peter But for the other caution how shall we know a thing to be a knowne truth Hart. Oneâ—way to know it and that a good way is the common testimonie of the faithfull people if they with one consent beleeue it to be true Rainoldes This bringeth vs small helpe to the expounding of scriptures For things may be true and yet a place of scripture not applied truely and rightly to proue them As it is plaine in places that haue béene applied by Christians against the Iewes But let it be a good way UUhat if the faithfull people doo dissent As in the question which we haue in hand about the Popes supremacy the people of the east church dissented from the west many hundred yeares together UUhat shall we doo then Hart. Then an other way a better way to finde it is the common testimonie of the faithfull Pastors if they doo decrée it in a generall councell As for the Popes supremacy they did in the Councell of Lateran Rainoldes The Bishops of the east church say that the Councell of Lateran was not generall which the Pope him selfe doth acknowledge also as it is noted on your law But here the former difficulties méete vs againe and bréede the same perplexitie For there are but few places of Scripture which generall Councels haue expounded neither is it likely the Pope will assemble them to expound the rest Againe although you say that generall Councels can not erre in their conclusions yet you say they may erre in applying of Scriptures to prooue their conclusions Lastly generall Councels may dissent too as heretofore they haue in a weightie point offaith touching Christ. The which incommodities being all incident into this which presently we debate of as our conference will shew you sée that you haue not yet resolued me One question I must aske you more In this case when Councels say nothing of Scriptures or misapply them in proofes or dissent in conclusions what are we to doo Hart. If Councels dissent we must follow those which are confirmed by the Head And to answere all your questions in a word whether with the Councels or without the Councels that which the Head determineth is a knowne truth that which the Head condemneth is a knowne errour Rainoldes You meane by the Head not our Sauior Christ but the Pope I trow Hart. I the visible head Rainoldes Doo you not sée then by your owne answeres that whatsoeuer shew you make of Fathers and Councels the Pope is the man that must strike the stroke So that to bring it to the point in controuersie whereas our question is whether that the Pope be supreme head of the church you say He is so UUhen we sift the matter and séeke the reasons why this is the summe of all Because him selfe saith so I thought that the church should haue béene your lawier to expounde your euidences but now I perceiue that you meant the Pope Hée is the churches husband belike and in matters of law dealeth for her I cannot blame you though you be content to make him your iudge too For if he giue sentence in this cause against you I will neuer trust him Hart. You doo gather more of mine answers then I meant I pray make your owne collections and not mine Rainoldes I doo gather nothing but that which you haue scattered For you began to try this point touching the Pope by the wordes of Scripture The wordes we agrée decide by the sense the sense must be tried you say by the Fathers the Fathers by the truth the truth by the people the people by the Councels the Councels by the Pope If one of vs should make but a semblance of such an answere you would sport your selues with it and call it a Circulation and cry against our impudency whoope at it like stage players But you may daunse such roundes and yet perswade men that you go right forward with great sobrietie and grauitie Hart. Howsoeuer you dally with your circulations rounds as you call them I say no more but this that if a truth cannot be knowne otherwise then the last meane to resolue vs of it is the Popes authoritie But there néeded not so much adoo hereof if I proue that Christ did giue that supremacie whereof we talked to S. Peter Rainoldes You can neuer proue that Christ did giue it him but by the word of Christ which is the holie scripture And the scripture standeth in substance of the sense not in
sustenance of his houshold must be the Scripture onely Which the light of reason will induce you too if you beléeue the former pointes For the Philosopher teacheth that we are nourished by the same thinges of which we do consist Then if we are begotten of Gods worde as seede the word as it is milke to nourish vs when we are young so must it nourish vs when we are grown as strong meat But if it were so that S. Austin had not had this opinion touching strong meat yet must he néedes haue it in that whereof we reason for there he speaketh of milke And he sayth that the rule of faith is receiued of plainer places of the scriptures and of the authoritie of the church to note the churches practise which in catechizing of her young ones taught them summarily the pointes of beléefe and the precepts of life So that the simplest Christians who had not read them selues the plainer places of the scriptures to learne the rule of faith yet knewe it by the catechisme wherin through the ministery of the church they learned it Now S. Austins catechisme hath nothing but the doctrine which Christians may sucke out of plainer places of the scriptures His rule of faith therefore deliuered in the plainer places of the scriptures is the same that the authoritye of the church deliuered In déede your newe Doctors in their Popish catechismes haue precepts of the church beside the precepts of the scriptures your church which nameth her selfe though vntruely the mother of al churches hath more then two brests a third out of the which shee powreth poyson with her milke Whereby through good vsage hauing killed her owne children shee claimeth our churches children to be hers as did the woman before Salomon And the whore hath got her atturneies of her minions which do not onely raile at vs for not acknowledging her to be our mother but also belye vs that we scoffe at and curse the very title of Holy mother the church But they whom God hath blessed with the spirite of wisedome as he did Salomon will easily discern that we are so far off from scoffing at and cursing that we giue the name of mother to the church with reuerence and ioy Marry the church of Rome to be called our holy mother which neither is holy nor our mother that our soules detest and wish that her stepmotherhood may be farre from vs. As for the rule offaith to which she layeth claime by her aduocate your Doctor pleading the title out of Austin that wee as acknowledging her child to be our sister may take her for our mother if we folow Salomon and rippe vp the plea with such a sword as he did we shall find that the child is neither hers nor her husbandes but the holy scriptures For Austin in saying the rule of faith is learned of plainer places of the Scriptures and of the authoritie of the church named the Scriptures as the matter the church as the minister wherof the rule of faith is learned Your Doctor supposing as wel the carpenter as the timber to be the stuffe whereof the house must be builded doth laye his axe to both togither and squaring them alike doth make him beames and postes and iuises some of the timber some of the carpenter Euen so the holy scripture is not the whole matter of the rule of faith whereof the church ministers as workemen and builders should frame the house of God but in part the church in part the scripture is the matter Both which being molten as were the earerings of the Israelites wrought in fashion by your craftesman not yéelding vnto it of weakenes as did Aaron but séeking after it with greedines as the people who knewe not what was become of Moses they will make a rule of faith not of Christes but of the Popes faith And this if it be decked with deuises to the eie as that was with gold and set foorth by men whose tongues are their owne and voices sweete to sing the song These be thy Gods ô Israel which brought thee out of the land of Egipt it will moue manye to daunse for ioy about it in as holy sort as the golden calfe did moue the Israelites to doo Hart. It doth not become you to scorne in this sort so graue and learned men as M.D. Stapleton and others whom you touch much lesse the church of Rome and least of al the Popes Holines Whose predecessors gaue vs our first faith in the time of the Britannes and restored it afterward in the daies of the English And do you thus reward them for it You will make some men perhaps if you vse it to giue their iudgement of you with what spirite you do it Rainoldes If you will speake of him who gaue vs our faith you shall do well to lift vp your eies from dust and rottennesse and cast them somewhat higher Else although I will not condemne your spirite therefore yet I shall feare you doo not that honour to Gods Spirite which would beseeme a child of God for who is their father But to accept them as the giuers of it whose ministery God vsed in it first as it is doubted of the one side whether the Britannes had their first faith from Eleutherius it is more likely no so of the other side it is confessed that all the English had it not from Austin sent by Gregory Then if it were so we had it first from them yet we receiued it not from the Popes predecessors For as you take the name of Pope for supreme head and supreme head for that power which you haue defined there was no Pope at all when we receiued the faith The bratte was not yet borne when Gregory the first much lesse when Eleutherius was Bishop of Rome as our cōnference will shew Thirdly if they who were the predecessours of the Pope though not as Pope gaue vs our first faith the successors can not complaine they gaue it fréely they haue béene paid swéetely for it Your men to set them vp compare them to Balaam and the church to his asse In deede we must graunt our church hath béene the asse but your Balaam hath not refused to accept a house full of siluer and gold nay hee hath béene glad to sue for it too Last of all if they had giuen it vs fréely and plaid a kind mothers part neuerthelesse of mother transgressing as she hath done our father saith vnto vs Contend with your mother contend that she is not my wife neither am I her husband to the intent she may remoue her fornications out of her sight and her adulteries from betweene her breastes S. Paule was brought vp at the feete of Gamaliel Gamaliel a great Pharise Neither was he onely the scholer but the sonne of
in the times I trow In déede they are not like For Peter was then a preacher of the Gospell as Pastors are now and the Pope now is a Prince of the world as Nero was then The fifth Chapter The Fathers 1 are no touch-stone for tryal of the truth in controuersies of religion but the Scripture onely 2 Their writings are corrupted and counterfeits do beare their names 3 The sayings alleaged out of their right writinges proue not the pretended supremacie of Peter HART What soeuer difference there is betwéen the Pope Peter in state and power of worldly gouernment yet Peter had the same authoritie and primacie ouer the Apostles which the Pope claimeth ouer all Bishops And this because you will not yéeld vnto the Scriptures I will proue by the Fathers whose testimonies of it are most cléere and euident Rainoldes Whether I or you refuse to yéeld vnto the scriptures let the godly iudge As for the Fathers I like your dealing well in part For I wished that first you would go through with the Scriptures and then when you had found nothing in them come to the Fathers afterward But I wish further if I might obteine it that you had the Scriptures in such price and honour as the word of God that no word of men should be matched with them to build your faith vpon For God hath giuen his word to be a lanterne to our feete and a light to our path that we may sée the way to heauen and walke in it And the holy Ghost saith that the Scriptures are able to make vs wise vnto saluation wise by instructing vs in the faith of Christ vnto saluation by leading vs to life through that faith Wherfore sith we conferre about a point of wisedome perteining vnto faith and life you should do very well to rest on the Scriptures as the onely touch-stone for tryall of the truth therin Hart. Now at length I heare that which I looked for I thought for all your duetifull words of the Fathers that you would come ouer to the Scriptures onely before you made an end Rainoldes Why Is my behauiour towarde men vndutifull because I am duetifull vnto God aboue them Hart. There is a worthy treatise of an auncient writer Vincentius Lirinensis against the profane innouations of all heresies a passing fine booke which it is wished that al such should read as wil know the truth You haue read it perhaps and what thinke you of it Is it not a golden booke Rainoldes The booke is good enough if it haue a wise reader Hart. Say you so Yet some there be of your side who are afraid of the name of Vincentius Lirinensis Rainoldes They are worse afraid then hurt for any thing that I know But what of Vincentius Hart. He saith it is so common a practise of heretikes to alleage the scripture that they neuer bring almost ought of their own but they seeke to shadow it with words of scripture too And hauing shewed this by sundry examples he addeth that therein they folow the practise of the Deuill their maister Who tooke our Sauiour Christ and set him on a pinnacle of the temple and said vnto him If thou be the sonne of God cast thy selfe down For it is written that he will giue his Angels charge ouer thee that they shall kepe thee in all thy waies with their hands they shall lift thee vp least perhaps thou dash thy foote against a stone If thou saith he be the sonne of God cast thy selfe down Why For it is written We must with great heede obserue and remember the doctrine of this place that when we see words of the Prophets or Apostles brought foorth by any men against the Catholike faith we way be assured by this great example of the authoritie of the Gospel that the Deuil doth speake by them Thus saith that auncient Father Vincētius Lirinensis Whose words do manifestly disproue your opinion that the truth of pointes in faith should be tryed by the scripture onely Rainoldes The ciuill law saith that it is vnciuill for a man not hauing weighed the whole law to giue aduise or iudgement some one parcell of it being alone proposed Your dealing with the wordes of Vincentius Lirinensis is guiltie of this vnciuilitie For he to instruct vs how we may continue sound in the faith against the guiles of heretikes and suttletie of Satan who doth transforme him selfe into an Angell of light teacheth that our Sauiour hath to this entent both forewarned vs of the danger and foreshewed vs a remedy Forewarned vs of the daunger in the precept that he gaue Beware of false prophets which come to you in sheepes clothing but inwardly are rauening wolues For what saith he is sheepes clothing but the sincere and soft words of the Scripture which are alleaged by false prophets as well as by the true What are the rauening wolues but the cruell meanings and senses of heretikes which vnder sheepes clothing do rent the flocke of Christ Foreshewed vs a remedy in the lesson that he adioined Ye shal know them by their fruites That is to say when they be gin not onely to alleadge those wordes but to expound them and citing them as true prophets do not interprete them as true prophets then are the wolues seene by their teeth and rauening then are their bloudy natures known for all their fleeces then are the faithfull teachers discerned from seducers the true Apostles from the false the Angell of light from the Angell of darknes the ministers of righteousnes from the ministers of Satan Which thinges set downe and prosequuted more amply and fully he draweth in fine vnto this conclusion the summe of all his treatise that although the scriptures alone be sufficient for all pointes of faith yet is it not sufficient to haue a shew of the wordes but we must also haue the substance of the sense that is the true and naturall meaning of the scriptures Now if this discourse of his be weighed whole and not a parcell of it seuered from the rest what can you proue thereby more then I will graunt Nay more then I haue graunted and proued alreadie when I shewed that the right sense of the scripture expounded by the scripture is the sword of Gods spirit wherewith all heresies must be vanquished The Deuill you say alleaged the wordes of the scripture against Christ. He did so Yet he alleaged thē not wholy entirely as Vincētius hath them but as the Euangelistes rehearse them maimedly Wherein if Vincentius obseruing the attempt that the Deuill alleaged the wordes of the scripture had withall obserued the suttletie of the tempter how he alleaged them hée might haue better noted the deceites of heretikes abusing scripture then he did and so haue better fensed the right-beléeuing Christians with power of scripture then he hath For he reporteth it so as if the Deuill had
God by inspiration and is the word of God Wherefore if you will take the golde of Vincentius you must grant that scripture alone is sufficient to trie the truth from errour and to mainteine the Catholike faith against heresie Hart. You doo not deale well in misreporting so the words of Vincentius For he setteth downe two meanes by the which we must fense our faith against the guiles of heretikes eschue their snares first by the authoritie saith he of the scripture then by the tradition of the catholike Church You leaue out altogither that which he saith of tradition and handle him in such sort as though he had spoken for the scripture onely Rainoldes It is not your purpose I hope to beguile mée by the colour of his wordes It may be that your selfe are beguiled in them For he by the traditiō of the catholike church meant the true and right exposition of the scripture made by faithfull pastors and teachers of the church as his owne words immediately shew And this I made mention of in that I said that scripture is sufficient alone against heretikes if it be taken in the right sense the catholike sense hee calleth it You séeme to imagine that he meant by the worde tradition vnwritten verities as they haue bin termed or as you terme them now traditions which the Trent-Councell dooth account as much of as of scriptures and coupleth them togither to make a sufficient perfit rule of truth as though that onely scriptures were insufficient for it Which errour was so far from the minde of Vincentius that he saith expresly that he dooth not adde the traditiō of the Church to the authoritie of the scriptures as though that the scriptures were not thēselues alone sufficient for all thinges yea more then sufficient but to shew that because heretikes doo wrest and misse-expound the scriptures therefore we must learne their right sense and meaning deliuered to the godly by the ministery of the Church In which consideration as S. Paule writeth that he did deliuer according to the scriptures the things which he taught and therevpon nameth his doctrine traditions as you would say things deliuered so Vincentius mentioneth both the Churches tradition to note the ministerie of the Church deliuering the sense of scriptures and the Churches traditions to signifie the rules of faith according whereunto the scriptures are expounded as I haue shewed by scriptures Wherefore the wordes that your Vincentius speaketh touching the tradition and traditions of the Church do ioine hands with that which I did deliuer of the truth in pointes of faith to be tried by the scripture only Hart. You may not cary so the wordes of Vincentius away in a cloude For though he may séeme to haue meant in generall by the tradition of the Church the expounding of scriptures according to the rule of their right and Catholike sense which the Pastors of the Church deliuer yet comming to particulars he frameth that rule not out of the scriptures but out of the opinions which the Church holdeth in matters of religion For he asketh him selfe when heretikes pretend scriptures what shall the Catholikes doo How shall they discerne the truth from falshood in the scriptures Whereto he maketh answere that they must take the scriptures in the sense of the Church and therein they must folow vniuersalitie antiquitie consent By the which thréefold meanes to trie the truth he instructeth vs that we must hold that which the church of our time doth hold through all the world vniuersally If a part of Christendome diuide and cut it selfe from the faith of the whole then are we bound to folow the whole and not the part If the whole in our time be stained with any error then must we haue respect to the former time and cleaue to antiquitie If all in antiquity agreed not about it then looke too consent as what a generalll Councell did decree therof or if no such decree be what all the Fathers thought or if not all what the most euen they who continued in the faith and felowship of the Catholike Church And whatsoeuer we find that not one or two but all with one consent haue held written taught plainely commonly continually let vs be assured that we must hold also that without all doubt Thus Vincentius sheweth how he would haue the truth to be tried by the church if the church be soūd by the vniuersalitie of our own time if that be corrupt by the antiquitie of the former time if that be at variance by the consent of all or most of the Fathers Wherfore if you will stand vnto his iudgement to which you giue countenance as though you liked it you must not call the tryall of truth in religion to the scriptures onely but to the consent of the Fathers rather Rainoldes I liked his iudgement in the generall point touching the sufficiencie and perfitnes of scriptures which I know you like not though you make greater semblaunce of liking him then I. If in the particulars I mislike somewhat let the blame be laid vpon the blame-worthy not me who stand to that which he hath spoken well but him who falleth from it For laying his foundation as it were on a rocke he buildeth vp his house beside it on the sand That scripture is sufficient alone against heretikes so that it be taken in the right sense expounded by the rules of the Catholike faith this hath hée well auouched as on the rocke of Gods word But that the rules of faith and sense of the scripture must be tried and iudged by the consent antiquitie and vniuersalitie of the Church this hath he added not so well as on the sand of mens opinions The difference of the pointes may be perceiued by S. Austin who ioining in the former of them with Vincentius doth leaue him in the later For Austin as he setteth the ground of religion in the right sense and Catholike meaning of the scripture so teacheth he that this must be knowne and tried by the scripture it selfe the infallible rule of truth not by the fickle minds of mē And to haue taught hereof as Austin doth it had agreed best with the foundation of Vincentius which maketh the rule of scriptures alone sufficient for all thinges But because the weaker and ruder sort of Christians haue not skill to know the right exposition of scripture from the wrong therefore he tempering him selfe to their infirmitie doth giue them outward sensible markes to know it by Wherein he dealeth with them as if a Philosopher hauing saide that a man is areasonable creature should because his scholers cannot discerne of reason whereof the shew is such in many brute beastes that some haue thought them reasonable describe him more plainely by outward markes and accidents as namely that he hath two feete and no
feathers They report that Plato defined a man so a man is a liuing creature two-footed vn-feathered For which definitioÌ„ when he was commended Diogenes tooke a Capon and hauing pluckt his feathers off did bring him in to the schoole of Plato saying This is Platoes man The holy word of God is the same in the Church that reason is in a man Whereupon we giue it for an essential marke as I may terme it of the Church by which the Church is surely known and discerned But the shew of Gods word is such in many heretikes as of reason in brute beastes that some who haue no skill to discerne that marke doo thinke it impossible to know the Church by it Your felowes hereupon describe the Church by outward and accidentall markes as namely by antiquity succession consent These are very plausible and many do commend them highly But he that hath halfe an eie of a Philosopher I meane a wise Christian néede not playe Diogenes in plucking feathers off to shew that these markes may agrée to a capon Now as they deale with the markes of the Church so doo you M. Hart with the markes of the truth Not Vincentius but you who couer your errors with the name of Vincentius and take thinges as necessary and sure proofes of truth which he did note as probable and likelye tokens of it onely For he deliuered them not as neuer failing but as holding often and such as albeit they doo hit sometimes yet do they misse sometimes also Whereof him selfe is witnesse in that he disproueth them the first vniuersality by the example of the Arians and flyeth from it to antiquitie the second antiquitie by the example of the Donatistes and flyeth from it to consent Hart. But the third consent he speaketh of as neuer failing as a necessarie token to know and trie the truth by as an essentiall marke and proper to the pointes of Catholike faith and truth And this is the marke which chiefly I regarded when I alleaged Vincentius that our questions might be tried by the consent of the Fathers Rainoldes In déede he preferreth this marke before the rest as hauing held when they fayled Neuerthelesse he speaketh not so of it neither as that it may serue for tryall and decision of questions betwéene vs. For what doth he acknowledge to bee a point approued such as we are bound to beléeue by this marke Euen that which the Fathers all with one consent haue held written taught plainely commonly continually And who can auouch of any point in question that not one or two but all the Fathers held it nor onely held it but also wrote it nor onely wrote it but also taught it not darkely but plainely not seldome but commonly not for a short season but continually Which so great consent is partly so rare and hard to be found partly so vnsure though it might be found that him selfe to fashion it to some vse and certainetie is faine to limit and restraine it First for the matters that we are to seeke and follow their consent not in all litle questioÌ„s of the scripture but in the weighty pointes of faith Then for the persons that we must folow all or the greater part because in many pointes all of them consent not Finally which cometh néerest to our purpose he graunteth that there may such heresies arise as must be dealt withall by the scripture onely and not by the Fathers for purposing to shew both in what maner and what kind of heresies may be found out and condemned by the consenting sentences of the Fathers he saith and confirmeth that neither all heresies must be assaulted in this sort nor alwaies but only such as are new and greene to weete when first they spring vp before they haue falsisied the rules of auncient faith the very straitenes of time not suffering them to do it and before the poyson spreading abroad farther they endeuour to corrupt the writings of the Fathers But heresies that are spread abroad and waxed old must not be set vpon in this sort because they by long continuance of time haue had long occasion to steale away the truth And therefore whatsoeuer profanities there be either of schismes or heresies that are waxed auncient we must in no case deale otherwise with them then either to conuince them if it bee nedeful by the authoritie of scriptures onely or at the least auoid them being of old time conuicted and condemned alreadie by the generall councels of Catholike Bishops Lo when heresies are growne to be in yeares auncient and ample in places when they haue got antiquitie and vniuersality then must we fight against them not by consent of Fathers but by the authoritie of the scriptures only This is the sentence of Vincentius Lirinensis in that passing fine booke against the profane innouations of all heresies Is it not a golden senteÌ„ce Hart. The cause why Vincentius affirmeth that heresies when they are spread far and haue long continued are to be confuted by the scriptures onely not by consent of Fathers is that which he dooth point too of endeuouring to corrupt the writings of the Fathers a common practise of heresies if occasion and time serue them But there is no colour why therefore you should refuse to deale with vs by the consent of Fathers For neither are the doctrines which we professe heresies much lesse olde and ample heresies such as he speaketh of nor haue wée endeuoured to corrupt the writings of the Fathers nay wée haue kept them and endeuour daily to set them foorth most perfitly But your heresies in déede although they sprang of late and may be counted new and greene yet haue they endeuoured to corrupt the Fathers since and haue done it The practise of Erasmus is famous therein Of whom to say nothing what censures haue béen giuen by other worthy men whoÌ„ Torrensis nameth Marian Victorius in CoÌ„mentaries that he set foorth vpon the former thrée tomes of S. Ierome reproueth most learnedly more then sixe hundred errours thrust into them by Erasmus either in expounding or ill correcting them And Torrensis in his preface to the Confession of S. Austin declareth sundry bookes to be S. Austins owne which Erasmus had noted as falsly fathered on him Wherefore if by Vincentius you minde to touch them who endeuour to corrupt the writings of the Fathers cast out the beame out of your owne eie before you séeke a mâ—atâ— in ours Rainoldes Yet you sée by the way though you make hast away from it what rotten postes they be whereon as principall pillars your church and faith is built vniuersalitie antiquitie consent Of which it is shewed by Vincentius himselfe that heresies may iustly claime the two former vniuersalitie and antiquitie and make a faire chalenge to the third consent in processe of time so cunningly can they file the Fathers to their
to dispose to loose and bind These sayings are alleged by Thomas of Aquine out of S. Cyrils worke entitled the treasure But in S. Cyrils treasure there are no such base coines to be founde Wherefore either Thomas coined them him selfe for want of currant money or tooke them of some coiner and thought to trie if they would go Hart. Doo you know what iniurie you doo to that blessed man S. Thomas of Aquine to whose charge you lay so great a crime of forgerie Rainoldes None I at all to him whose counterfeits I discrie But he did great iniurie to the poore Christians whom hée abused with such counterfeits Your Saint-maker of Rome did canonize him for the holinesse of his life and learning The greatest triall of it was in his seruice to that Sée And are you loth to haue it knowne Hart. But why should you thinke either him to be the counterfeiter or the sayings to be counterfeit when as Cope sheweth they are alleaged not only by him but by other too Namely by that worthie and most learned Cardinall Iohn of Turrecremata who was at the Councell of Basill before him by Austin of Ancona yea by Graecians themselues who were at the councell of Florence Andreas Bishop of Colossae and Gennadius Scholarius the Patriarke of Constantinople Of whom when the former said in the Councell that Cyrill in his treasures had very much extolled the authority of the Pope none of all gainesaid him The later in a treatise that hee wrote for the Latins against the Graecians touching fiue pointes whereof one is the Popes supremacy citeth the same testimonies although perhaps not all which S. Thomas of Aquine doth out of Cyrill Yet you amongst so many choose him whom you may carpe at and thinke that wordes alleaged by them all are counterfeites Rainoldes Counterfeites are counterfeites though they go thorough twenty hands Al these whom you name out of Harpsfieldes Cope did liue long after Thomas and séeme to haue alleaged S. Cyrill on his credit as Cope himselfe doth also Wherefore I could not think that they had béene the coiners of that which was before they were But Thomas is the first with whom I finde the words and therefore greatest reason to laie the fault on him vnlesse he shew from whom he had them At least séeing I know the words are not Cyrils whose Thomas saith they be I did him no iniurie I trust when I said that either he receiued them at some coyners handes or coyned them him selfe Hart. Although the wordes are not to be found now in those partes of Cyrils treasure which are extant yet that is not sufficient to proue that either Thomas or some other forged them For Melchior Canus affirmeth that heretikes haue maimed that booke and haue razed out all those things which therin pertained to the Popes authoritie Which same thing to be done by them in the Commentaries of Theophylact vpon Iohn the Catholikes haue found and shewed Rainoldes Mée thinkes you and Canus deale against vs as the men of Doryla did against Flaccus Whom when they accused out of their publike recordes and their recordes were called for they said that they were robbed of them vpon the way by I know not what shepheardes You accuse vs that we deny the Pope his right of the supremacy The recordes by which you proue it his right are the wordes of Cyrill Cyrils wordes are called for that they may be séene You say they are not extant you are robbed of them by I know not what heretikes Whereon to put a greater likelihood you say further that heretikes haue done an other robbery in Theophylact as they are charged by Catholikes And this doo you say but you say it onely you bring no proofe you name no witnesse you shew no token of it If such accusations may make a man guiltie who shall be innocent Hee that should haue dealt-among the heathens so would haue bene counted rather a slaunderer then an accuser Hart. Admitte that the words were not razed perhaps out of any booke of Cyrill which we haue Yet might they be in some of them which are lost or not set forth in Latin For we haue no more then fouretéene bookes of his treasure whereas the two and thirtieth is cited by the Fathers in the sixth general Councell And this is enough to remoue suspicion of forgery from Thomas and other who alleage them Rainoldes Nay although the two and thirtieth be mentioned by the Fathers there yet meant they no more of Cyrill then we haue For that which in our Latin edition is the twelfth is the two and thirtieth in the Grecians count Hart. This is an answere which I neuer heard It hath no likelyhood of truth Rainoldes Peruse you the place which toucheth that of Cyrill and the wordes them selues will proue it more then likely Hart. The Councel hath it thus Hoc sanctus Cyrillus in trigesimo secundo libro Thesaurorum docet epistolam ad profanos explanans nec enim vnam naturalem operationem dabimus esse Dei creaturae vt neque id quod creatum est ad diuinam deducamus essentiam neque id quod est diuinae naturae praecipuum ad locum qui creatis conuenit deponamus Rainoldes This sentence alleaged out of the two and thirtieth of Cyril in Gréeke is in the twelfth booke of our Latin Cyrill Sauing that he being translated by an other hath it in other wordes But there is the sentence the very same sentence which the Councell pointeth too Hart. It might be there first and yet againe afterward in the two and thirtieth as manye vse one sentence often Rainoldes But the circumstance of the place doth rather import it to be the very same For the Councell saith that Cyrill hath these wordes explanans epistolans ad profanos where he expoundeth the epistle to profane men And what meant they by this epistle ad profanos to profane men Hart. How can I tell what they meant when that booke of Cyrill whereof they speake is lost Rainoldes It should be the epistle ad Romanos to the Romaines Romanos made profanos by the printers error vnlesse he did it of purpose to shew what now the Romanes be or some corrector chaunged it least wee by this circumstance should find the place of Cyrill For this where he expoundeth the epistle to the Romanes is a great argument that the Councell meant the place in the twelfth booke where Cyril doth handle such pointes of that epistle as concerned the matter that he had in hand Which that he should doo againe in the same worke with the same sentence touching the same matter they who know Cyrill will not thinke it likely The lesse because it is an vsuall thing with the Grecians to diuide bookes otherwise then the Latins doo As in the Gréeke testament the gospell of S. Marke hath more then
he agreeth not precisely word for worde with the Cambron-copie Now the Cambron-copie what is it or whence came it that Cyprian should be made the father of such slippes vpon the credit of it alone What if some did note them in the margent of fansie as students vse to doo What if some receiued them into the text of errour What if some of zeale vnto the church of Rome did adde them And why did not Pamelius leaue out the other words of the equalitie of the Apostles in honor and power because the Cambron copie wanteth them as well as adde these of Peters primacie and chaire because the Cambron-copie hath them Did not his conscience tell him that the copie was vnsound or at the least insufficient to force the change of a place of so great importance against the credite of so many both writen bookes and printed If other Licentiates as learned as Pamelius shall vpon one copie as good as the Cambron presume in all the Fathers as he hath in CypriaÌ„ to adde the like gloses for the rest of your opinions as these are for the chaire and primacie of Peter it will be hie time for vs to take héede how wee permitte the tryall of controuersies in religion to the consent of the Fathers Wherfore although these matters seeme neuer so small yet there may lie as much on them as concerneth the safety of our soules Neither doo I picke them as quarrels for pretense but I alleage them as reasons for proofe that by the position of your owne author we must deale with you not by their consent but by the scripture onely For he on whom you grouÌ„ded Vincentius Lirinensis alloweth onely scripture to conuince those errors which haue encreased long wide because the length of time hath geuen them occasion to steale away the trueth and the poyson spreading farther they endeuour to corrupt the writings of the Fathers Your error of the Papacie hath spread farre and growen long you haue endeuoured to corrupt the writinges of the Fathers the forgeries are plaine in Cyprian in Cyrill and in the Councell of Chalcedon the presumptions are great that you haue beene as bold with other as with these For if Thomas of Aquine made no conscience of it what may be thought of such as were more ambitious And if Manutius dealt so with Cyprian in whom hee sought most credit what did his ten yeares labors in setting foorth the rest And if Papistes durste this in the light of printing what may we feare they did in the darcknesse of writing bookes And if the Roman print be folowed at Anwerp the Anwerp at Paris the Paris other-where perhaps and the newer the worser and the worst accounted best by such as D. Stapleton and testimonies alleaged thence as authenticall how much likelyer is it that when they wrote copies in Monasteries and Abbeys they folowed one another with lesser shame and greater loosenes and so did proceede from good to euill from euill to worse and authors of that age did most approue those copies which made for their aduauntage most and brought authorities out of them To conclude therefore euen by his iudgement to whom you appealed Vincentius Lirinensis in that golden booke against the profane innouations of all heresies the touchstone by the which our controuersie must be tryed is the word of God and not the word of men not the consent of Fathers but the holy scripture and the scripture only And this I may protest I speake not of feare as though the Fathers all held with you against vs but of conscience that I may yeelde due glory to God due reuerence to his word For let such forgeries as I haue spoken of be set apart and what haue all the Fathers nay what hath any of them to prooue the pretended supremacie of Peter Hart. The very same Fathers whose wordes I alleaged before and them acknowledged to be their owne not counterfeits geue Peter the supremacie which you call pretended For S. Ierom saith of him Peter was of so great authoritie that Paul wrote Then after three yeares and so forth and S. Austin affirmeth that the primacie of the Apostles is conspicuous and preeminent with excellent grace in Peter and Chrysostome calleth him the mouth of the Apostles the chiefe and toppe of the company and he is named by Theodoret the prince of the Apostles the prince which title also is geuen him by all antiquitie Wherto I may adde that Epiphanius termeth him 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as you would say the highest of the Apostles and S. Austin yet farther their head their President the first of them which preeminence he prooueth also out of S. Cyprian who saith that the Lord did choose Peter first S. Ierom teacheth that Peter was chosen one among the twelue to the inteÌ„t that a head being appointed occasion of scisme might bee taken away The bookes of the Fathers are full of such sayings but they are all to this effect And therfore these fewe may serue to shew their iudgement Rainoldes These sayings and the like which are alleaged out of the Fathers doo touch three prerogatiues which they giue to Peter the first of authoritie the second of primacie the third of principalitie But none of them all doth proue the supremacy which you pretend to Peter and meane to the Pope For by thaâ— supremacie is signified the sâ—lnes of ecclesiasticall or rather Papall power euen a power soueraine of gouerning the Church throughout the whole world in all points matters of doctrine and discipline as you declared Is it not Hart. It is so What then Rainoldes But none of the sayings alleaged out of the Fathers doe geue this soueraine power to Peter Therfore they proue not his pretended supremacie Hart. They geue it him all Rainoldes I wil shew the contrary And to speake in order of the three prerogatiues which by them are geuen him the first out of Ierom that Peter was of great authoritie is nothing to your purpose For it is apparaunt that sith the supremacie dooth note a soueraine power the question is of power and not of authoritie Hart. As who say that power and authoritie did differ so much one from the other Rainoldes Much. For power importeth a right of rule and gouernment which the superiors haue ouer their inferiors for the good ordering of mankind as Princes ouer subiectes Pastors ouer flocks Masters ouer seruants Husbands ouer wiues By authoritie is meant estimation and credite a good opinion of men for that which wée account worthy to bée estéemed For they of whom we think so well in respect of their vertue or wisdome or state or other qualities that we will folow them as authors in our dooings our iudgements factes or words are said to be of credite and authoritie with vs. And this an inferior may haue with his superior As
the chaire of Moses but in the chaire of Christ doo the Priests sit for they haue receiued his doctrine Which point vnlesse your former argument were naught will proue that Priestes cannot erre no more then Popes For they who sit in Christes chaire haue greater prerogatiue then they who sate in the chaire of Moses Priestes then Scribes and Pharises The Scribes and the Pharises were to be obeied in all things which they said The Priestes must bee therefore much more obeied in all things But if they should erre then ought they not to be obeied Therefore they cannot erre in any thing they say Acknowledge you the forme of your owne argument Doth not the conclusion folow as necessarily here as there And thinke you M. Hart that Priestes cannot erre Thinke you that your selfe are of this perfection that wée ought to obey both you and your companions in all thinges which you say Or if you thinke not so fondly of them so proudly of your selfe as I hope you do not then leaue Doctor Stapletons exposition which inferreth it which he patcheth vp with the wordes of Austin Chrysostome and Origen whereas not one of them meant it Yéelde rather if you be wedded to Doctors of your owne side vnto their authoritie then whom the Church of Rome hath none of greater knowledge and perfiter iudgement for right interpreting of the scriptures I meane Iohn Ferus Arias Montanus Of whom the one saith that Christ taught his disciples to obserue and doo whatsoeuer the Scribes and the Pharises commanded by the prescript of the law that is out of the chaire of Moses the other that he chargeth vs to obey euil prelates yet withall he addeth how farre we must obey them Do ye saith he all things which they shall say vnto you but he had told them first they sit vpon the chaire of Moses For Christ did not meane that they should obserue all the decrees of Pharises but so farre forth as they agreed with the law According whereunto when he had shewed before also that they taught contrarie to the law in some pointes after certaine things touched betweene he added Beware of the leauen of the Pharises In like sort he said to the Apostles and their successours Hee that heareth you heareth me and he that despiseth you despiseth me and it shall be easier for the land of Sodom in the day of iudgement then for them who shall not receiue you and heare your wordes But Matthew had set downe before that Christ chose twelue whom he called Apostles and charged them to preach the gospell Whereby it appeereth that the Apostles must be heard but so farre forth as they be Apostles that is as they doo Christes worke and preach and teach the thinges which Christ commanded But if they teach other thinges and contrarie to Christ then are they not Apostles now but seducers and therefore not to be heard O the great light of truth which forceth euen the aduersaries not onely to perceiue it but also to reueale it often So will it force you too if you haue so much grace as Ferus and Montanus had Hart. So much grace as to say that if the Apostles teach thinges contrarie to Christ they are no Apostles now but seducers Doo you allow that spéech of Ferus And might the Apostles be seducers Rainoldes Peter an Apostle might say vnto Christ when he heard him speake of suffering at Ierusalem Maister pitie thy selfe this shall not be vnto thee And Christ would not therefore haue called him Satan had he not thought him a seducer Hart. But Christ did giue them afterwarde the holy ghost in greater abundance from heauen when he sent them to preach vnto all the world Rainoldes But Christ had told them before that it should be easier for Sodom and Gomorrha then for the citie that shold not heare their wordes Yet Christ himselfe refused to heare the wordes of Peter Wherefore the exposition of Ferus is good that Christ meant those wordes which he had willed them to preach that is the gospell Beside that Ferus speaketh not onely of Apostles but also of their successours Now though the Apostles were priuileged afterwarde by the speciall graces of the holy ghost to teach the truth in all thinges yet Bishops who succeeded them haue not that priuilege You must renounce therfore that erroneous expositioÌ„ which knitteth an assured truth of faith and doctrine to the succession of the Apostles and bindeth vs in all thinges to obey them who succeede into the seate of the Apostles and saith that he who sitteth in the chaire of the Apostles doth speake not his owne thinges but the thinges of God For our Sauiour meant that the Scribes Pharises ought to be obeied in al things which they taught out of the law of God not that they câ—uld not erre in faith and doctrine because they did succeede Aaron Hart. I cannot conceiue but that he meant to cléere their doctrine from errour For his wordes of doing that which they say because they sit in the chaire of Moses are rather a warraÌ„t for them in all thinges which they teach then a restraint for others how farre they must obey them Rainoldes His wordes belong properly to the instruction of hearers that they despise not the doctrine of God for the fautes of teachers So are they both a warrant and a restraint by consequent A warrant for teachers to be obeied in all things which they shall say out of the law A restraint for hearers not to doo those thinges whiâ—h the teachers say if they shall teach against the law As letters of credence geuen by Princes vnto their embassadours doo warrant them for their commission restraine them if they goe beyond it Hart. But the commission here is generall for all thinges that concerne teachers For Christ expresly sâ—ith obserue ye and doo ye Now we obserue pointes of faith we doo precepts of maners Wherefore whatsoeuer the Scribes and Pharises taught either of faith or maners they were to be obeyed in it Rainoldes That were a pretie proofe for your traditions of both sortes if it had ground in the text But to obserue and doo are both referred by Christ to the same thinges as he sheweth by comprising them first in the one worde then in the other All thinges whatsoeuer they say you must obserue obserue ye and doo ye but after their workes doo not for they say and doo not So it séemeth that to fasten his lesson of obeying the commandements of God which the Scribes and Pharises taught out of Moses he doubleth as it were his stroke by saying both obserue ye and doo ye Wherein he might expresse and call to their remembrance that which he doth commend of Moses who doubleth oft the same wordes in vrging of the same doctrine To be short
Bishops all such as say and doo not and that S. Austin giueth that sense of the text But the Diuines of Rhemes haue set downe S. Austins name and wordes so as if he had thought that to be Scribes and Pharises had béene a peculiar grace vnto the Popes And vnder colour of his authoritie and iudgement they force the scriptures also to it saying that the chaire of Moses in the olde law was that the Sée of Rome is now The See of Rome is answerable to the chaire of Moses Which sentence is so grosse that vnlesse they had hoped to finde swine in England whom any doung would please that sauoured of the Pope they would not haue durst to lay it on the scriptures no not though their heartes had béene as fat as brawne and their faces as hard as adamant Hart. What meane you to sclaunder a college of so learned Diuines in such sort Doth not S. Austin mention the See and Bishops of Rome in all the places which they cite both in the epistles and against Petilian Rainoldes Not in all in some he doth But doth he mention him in any of them so as though the chaire of Moses were proper vnto him and he alone should sit in it Hart. Perhaps not expressely yet he doth impliedly and by a consequent For els why made he speciall mention of him more then of others Rainoldes Because he had occasion to speake of him specially through the obiections of his aduersaries Yet he maketh mention of other Sees and Bishops too as of Ierusalem But the scripture witnesseth that all men are lyers If I should hence auouch that the Pope is a lyer would you say that I auouch the Pope alone to to be a lyer and not the Turke also Hart. The Pope may lye by nature but God by grace can free him from it Rainoldes The question is what God doth not what hee can doo Hart. But as he can so he doth by priuilege of the Sée of Rome Rainoldes As true as Austin saith it Such a proofe such a priuilege Hart. S. Austin may haue said it if not in the former places yet in the other For certes D. Genebrard to proue that the Pope may be an heretike in person but cannot erre iudicially doth bring forth a reason from the chaire that is the Sée and quoteth him for it For the force saith he of the chaire is such that it constraineth them to speake good thinges and true who doo not good nor thinke true neither doth it suffer them to teach their owne thinges but the things of God Augustin lib. 4. de dectr Christ cap. 27. epist. 166. Rainoldes Of the two places whence he gathereth this the former agreeth fully with the later the later is the same that your Diuines of Rhemes abuse as I haue shewed In both S. Austin speaketh of wicked Bishops generally not specially of the Pope In both he meaneth the office of teaching by the chaire the office committed not to one Bishop but to all If Genebrard doo take the chaire in this sense how proueth it your priuilege If he meane the Sée of Rome by the chaire then is there a conspiracie of Prophets among you as there was among the Iewes and Genebrard is one of them Hart. It is not likely that S. Austin vsed the name of the chaire for the office of teaching which is common to all Bishops as well to hirelinges as to pastors For he saith that the chaire constraineth them to speake good thinges and true the chaire constraineth them How are they constrained but by a speciall grace for the benefite of the Church And in what Bishops may this grace be shewed but in the Popes onely Rainoldes S. Austin as he noteth that grace in the Popes so doth he shew it in all other Catholike Bishops of his time whose doctrine the Donatists against whom he writeth did not reproue but their maners He calleth the chaire in which they all sit the chaire of wholsome doctrine and saith they are constrained to speake good thinges in it He openeth the cause why they are constrained to wéete that although they seeke their owne thinges yet they are afraid and dare not teach their owne thinges out of the pulpit of that Church in which sound doctrine is established So that the speciall grace whereby they are constrained to speake good thinges and true is an vngratious grace whereby they are induced to séeke their wealth or honour For they preach Christ for earâ—hly commodities of mony or dignities and the prayse of man The loue of which thinges is so mightie with them that it doth moue them effectually and forcibly to preach in such sorte as is fit to get or keepe the thinges which they loue And hereupon S. Austin saith they are constrained and inforced to it as Paul said to Peter that he constrained the Gentiles to doo like the Iewes because by his example hee moued them effectually as Laelius told his friendes that they constrained him to graunt them a thing which they by earnest suite intreated For that he vsed the worde constraine in that sense himselfe hath declared other-where by saying that shepeheardes he meaneth hirelinges will they nill they will say the wordes of God that they may come to milke and wooll The spéech may séeme harsh that shepeheardes will they nill they will say the wordes of God but hee speaketh so to note that the loue of milke and of wolle that is of commodities constraineth them to féede the sheepe with Gods worde whether they like of it or no. Now because the doing herof is in and by their office of teaching which the chaire betokened as the chaire of Moses therefore he saith that Moses chaire did constraine the Scribes and Pharises to say good thinges and that amongst Christians hirelinges are constrained to say them in the chaire too As if I should say when in the Church of England a Papist preacheth against Poperie a worldling against worldlinesse an hypocrite against hypocrisie which some times they doo the pulpit constraineth them to preach so You should mistake me if you should imagin that I meane our pulpit hath a speciall grace to kéepe all preachers still from errour Euen so doo they S. Austin who dreame of such a chaire in his wordes Howbeit if you thinke that a chaire with him is of greater force then a pulpit with vs yet you can not thinke but that his wordes spoken of the Scribes and Pharises are meant of all Bishops who say and doo not For so he expoundeth the Scribes and Pharises often euen in the same booke which your Rhemists alleage Wherefore if the Pope by vertue of the chaire cannot erre as Pope then an other Bishop cannot erre as Bishop by vertue of the same chaire But any other Bishop you graunt may erre as Bishop Therefore you must graunt the Pope may erre as Pope
as leaden and soft rules doo not direct the building with an equall tenour but are bowed to the building at the lust of the builders so are the Popes canons made flexible as lead and waxe that now this great while the decrees of our auncestors and the Popes canons serue not to guide mens maners but that I may so say to make a banke and get money These thinges wrote Budaeus before Luther stirred against the Popes pardons So manifestly tended the lawes of the Popes to their owne profit and not to the Churches euen in the eyes of sober Papistes And thus haue you the summe of that which I said you might learne by the writings of your owne men Onuphrius and Sansouinus For whereas the Fathers of the Councell of Basill entending and endeuouring to reforme the Church did straiten the fulnes of the Popes power by cutting off the most of his reseruations all his aduowsons and compositions by abbridging his citations dispensations appeales the number and liuinges of his Cardinals and chiefly by defining after the Councell of Constance that the Pope is bound to obey the Councell and so is subiect to it Onuphrius saith thereof that they vnder pretense of reforming the church did seeke to take away and abrogate altogether the most of the priuileges of the church of Rome yea them that were most needfull Which sentence bewrayeth the mysteries that I spake off if it be marked well Chiefly if it be ioyned with his discourse of Cardinals and storie of the Popes liues wherein he declareth to what end they vsed those most needful priuileges Howbeit in their practise of the fowlest of them hee is somewhat close and partly doth smooth them partly doth passe them ouer But Sansouinus is more open though as a fréend also of the Popes state For setting forth the gouernment of the Court of Rome first in the Consistorie next in the Penitentiarie then in the Courts of requestes one of grace the other of iustice afterwarde in the Chauncerie and last of all in the Escheker he toucheth in effect as much as I haue said of the excesses of the Popes in ordeining the officers dealing with the causes disposing the goods abusing the censures and making lawes of the Church Yea a point more which sheweth manifestly their growing out of kinde from Bishoply state to Princely to wéete that there is an ordinarie Prelate called the Vicar of Rome to whom they haue commited the charge of al those thinges within the Romane diocese that belong to any Bishop in his diocese and so to them in theirs as Bishops of Rome properly In fine if any branch of the particular pointes wherewith I haue charged them be not so plaine and ful in Sansouinus or Onuphrius I shall declare it farther and proue it if you will by the records and testimonies of your owne Chroniclers Antiquaries Lawiers Doctors and Popes Whereupon I am content to make euen your selfe iudge M. Hart if the bogges of Popery haue not quenched all sparkles of conscience and iudgement in you whether that the Pope hath not erred in office and changed his Bishops Sée into a Princes Court and vsurped the power of imperiall State through shewes of Church-gouernment by rebelling against the Emperour and wresting his dominions from him by forâ—ing kings and nations to serue him as vasals by robbing peoples of their pastors pastors of their liuings the rude of instruction the loose of correction the distressed of comfort the poore of reliefe and to conclude the Christian Church of doctrine discipline and hospitalitie Iohn Rainoldes to the Christian reader When I sent this part of our conference to M. Hart that if any thing in his owne speeches were not to his minde he might adde or alter as he thought good I penned not his answere to my former speech but wrote these wordes vnder it I pray M. Hart make and penne your owne answere to this last speech of mine If you can iustifie the Pope in those things which I haue laid vnto his charge I will subscribe to all Popery If you cannot acknowlege his sumacie to be vnlawfull Iohn Rainoldes To this request offer M. Hart sent me his answere in writing Which I haue set downe here following word for word and so haue proceeded on in our conference as he desired me to doo If you speake vnfainedly M. Rainoldes as I trust you doo I must loue you the better for your plaine dealing in so weightie a matter That you doo not see how the Pope may be iustified I speake not of his naughtie and corrupt maners but of his supreme and soueraine authoritie which is as I take it agreeable to the Scripture and Christes owne appointment it séemeth to me that your errour herein procéedeth of a wrong perswasion that he had not that authoritie by right but vsurped it Which is not so as I haue alreadie shewed in part and now will proue vnto you farther For it is so farre off from being vsurped authoritie that if we will weigh thinges but with indifferencie and in equall balance you shall well perceiue that both Emperours and other Princes adioyning vnto him haue rather vsurped of his then he of theirs In so much that a good autour doth write that through the Popes negligent looking vnto it S. Peters patrimonie is greatly diminished Yea perhaps it is much lesse now at this time how great or how lordly soeuer it seeme in your eye then it was in the very best times almost thirtéene hundred yeares since For to beginne with the donation of Constantine the great he as Eugubinus writeth resigned to S. Syluester Pope and to his successors the citie of Rome with all his Imperiall roabes and ornaments him selfe retyring to Constantinople where he abode as in his Imperiall seate as also many other Emperours after him for many yeares togither did kéeping still either at Constantinople in the east or els at Milan and Rauenna in the west And this to be a certaine storie of the gift of Constantine to the Bishops of Rome besides very many witnesses which here I could cite for proofe therof as Ammianus Marcellinus a heathen who was sorie to sée it Photius Constantinopolitanus no fauourer of the Pope neither and a Grecian borne Nicephorus and many moe besides as you may reade in the Chronicles S. Damasus who liued about the same time and saw Constantine himselfe doth write of the said donation and gift of the Emperour Which gift moreouer to put it out of all doubt was confirmed a hundred yeares after by the Emperour Iustinian by Arithpert king of the Lombardes by king Pipine of Fraunce Charles the great holy king Lewes and lastly by Otho the great at a Councell holden at Rauenna as your owne men in their Centuries doo graunt and confesse For although they
Iewes whereas the Roman Church was a church of the Gentiles Wherefore neither Gregorie did purpose to proue the supremacie of the Pope by Christes wordes to Peter neither did Christ meane the Church of Rome specially but generally the Catholike Church euen all the chosen when he said of his Church that the gates of hell should not preuaile against it And if as one appealed from king Philip to king Philip from Philip halfe asléepe to Philip wel awaked so I may appeale from Gregorie to Gregorie from Gregorie somewhat troubled to Gregorie aduised better himselfe will by and by giue iudgement of my side For in the same treatise he doth a litle after alleage the place rightly and expound it soundly of them alone and all them who are built on Christ firmely and faithfully and nothing shall remoue them from him Which to be the natural sense of Christes wordes it is apparant to the eye For the gates of hell preuaile against them who are adiudged to death eternal But hypocrites and euill seruants are adiudged to it The gates of hell therefore preuaile against such Now such haue béene and may be the members yea the heads of the Church of Rome Then our Sauiour meant not that priuilege to them Onely against the chosen and elect of God the gates of hell preuaile not For whom he hath predestinate them hath he also glorified Wherefore it is the Church of Gods elect and chosen to whom our Sauiour meant it And them he doth call in this place my Church as in an other afterward to like effect my sheepe So what he meant there by saying of his sheepe to them I giue eternal life and they shal neuer perish the same he meant here by saying of his Church against it the gates of hel shall not preuaile Which thing is so cléere out of all controuersie that to passe ouer Theophylact and Origen of whom the one writeth that euery man established in the faith of Christ is meant by the Church the gates of hell shal not preuaile against him the other that these gates preuaile against all who are not of the Church and he is neither the Church nor any part therof whom they preuaile against Lira the meanest of a great many doth thus expound the place that the gates of hell shall not preuaile against the Church by subuerting it from the true faith Whereby saith he it is plaine that the Church consisteth not of men in respect of honour or power ecclesiasticall or ciuill for many Princes and Popes haue beene found to haue reuolted from the faith but the Church consisteth of them in whom there is true knowlege and profession of the faith and truth Hart. Howsoeuer Gregorie did either mistake the words of the scripture or not apply them perhaps to the supremacie yet is the supremacie proued by that title which he giueth the Church of Rome For if the Church of Rome be the head of all Churches why not the Bishop of Rome the head of all Bishops Rainoldes What force this reason hath we shall see anone But first I must conclude that it is not proued by the holy scriptures neither by these which you haue alleaged out of the Fathers nor by any other that you can alleage And this hath heretofore bene the opinion of learned men amongst your selues as i◠appéereth by your Canus Who hauing examined the point with greater iudgement then Stapletons are wont doth graunt that it is not writen in the scriptures that the Pope succeedeth Peter in the supremacie But that which in Canus might perhaps haue séemed one Doctors priuate fansy doth séeme to bée now resolued on by more and is taught publikely For your Roman reader the Iesuit Father Robert in his lectures of the Pope which for their excellencie are set downe in writing and sent abroad as great iewels doth not onely teach the same but also proue it And whereas Canus thought that to conuey Peters right vnto the Pope the stories haue sufficient ground which say that Peter set his chaire at Rome and there died or if learned men shall not allow of that an other ground may be that the Church receiued it though not by scripture yet by tradition Father Robert putting the matter out of controuersie defineth that in déede it is a tradition not of Christ but of the Apostles and least we should doubt of which of the Apostles he nameth the man Peter euen a tradition of Peter Let me intreate you M. Hart if all that I haue said cannot preuaile with you yet to regard the doctrine the doctrine taught at Rome of your owne of the chiefest of your owne Doctors Renounce the vnlearned folies of your Stapleton brainsicke furies of your Rhemists who with desperate violence doo wrest the word of Christ to make it serue the pride of Antichrist Acknowlege that you haue not one text through all the scripture to proue the Popes supremacie that when you tell men of Thou art Peter and on this rocke I haue prayed for the Peter and Peter feede my sheepe you do presume of their simplicitie that in truth these places doo not import it but policie would haue somewhat saide eis not so many would beleeue it finally that the Papacie is a deuise of Popes and Papists for which sith the scriptures can be abused no longer because men haue espied the fraude therefore a new cloake is found for it now and hereafter it shall be counted a tradition of Peter The eighth chapter The autoritie 1 of traditions and fathers pretended to proue the Popes supremacie in vaine beside the scripture which is the onely rule of faith The Fathers 2 being heard with lawfull exceptions that may be iustly taken against them 3 doo not proue it As it is shewed first in Fathers of the Church of Rome By the way 4 the name of Priest the Priestly sacrifice of Christians the Popish sacrifice of Masse-priestes the proofes brought for the Masse the substance and ceremonies of it are laid open And so it is declared that 5 neither the auncient Bishops of Rome themselues 6 nor any other Fathers do proue the Popes supremacie HART You labour in vaine if you go about to perswade me that the Popes supremacie can not be proued by scripture And what iniurious dealing is this to bring our owne men Canus and Father Robert for the proofe thereof as though the greatest fauourers of vs were against vs. Rainoldes The scholer is not aboue his maister nor the seruant aboue his Lord. If Christ my Lord and maister were glad to labor in vaine why should I disdaine it Chiefly sith I may comfort my selfe as he did I haue laboured in vaine I haue spent my strength in vaine and for nothing but yet my duety is with the Lord and my worke with my God But what iniurious dealing is it if I indeuouring
are not aliue Hart. Aliue What is that to the tryall of our issue Rainoldes Much. For if they liued and did appeere before the iury first they should be sworne to say the truth and al the truth and nothing but the truth Whereby they might bee moued both to speake more waâ—ily and to enforme the iury more throughly then they haue doon Next it would be easier to examine them of their age their estate the circumstances of their persons of their spéeches the meaning the occasion and cause thereof Which all are helpes to finde out the truth of thinges in controuersie Thirdly if it appeered by examination that either for their persons or for their speeches they are vnworthie of credit then it should bee lawfull to except against them A libertie which law doth graunt against witnesses if there be cause of iust exception Yet you perhaps as your men are wont would make outcrye if I should vse it against them who are dead and absent Wherefore vnlesse the iury doo supply that by wisedome and equitie which wanteth in the course of tryall by reason that the witnesses whom you will bring are not aliue they may be deceyued by names and shewes of witnesses and thereby giue a verdict which shall proue no verdict For verdict is a speech of veritie Hart. An honest mans worde is as good as his oth For as he will not forsweare so neither lye The Fathers must not therefore be the lesse beleeued because they are not sworne Rainoldes Yet an honest man when he is sworne wil speake more fully and maturely then when he is vnsworne And hée may say that sometime on coniecture which on his oth he would not say Hart. But that may be perceyued by the Fathers writings when they doo pronounce of a thing as certaine when as vncertaine they coniecture it And so may other circumstances which you require be knowne too as well as if them selues were present Rainoldes Not so well For their writings doo not answere to many questions which if they were present I woulde aske of them But I am content with that which may be knowne so Let the iury weigh it and iudge thereafter of their credit Hart. What Shall meaner men who be aliue now iudge of the credit of the Fathers who were so long in time so farre in giftes before them Rainoldes Euagrius a meane man wrote vnto S. Ierom desiring his opinion concerning Melchisedec whether he were the holy Ghost S. Ierom answering him when hee had shewed the iudgements of the auncient writers Origen Didymus Hippolytus Irenaeus Eusebius Caesariensis and Emisesenus Apollinarius Eustathius and the best learned Iewes of whom some thought Melchisedec an angel some a man you haue saith he what I haue heard what I haue read touching Melchisedec To bring forth the witnesses it was my part let it be yours to iudge of the credit of the witnesses It séemed reason to S. Ierom that Euagrius should iudge of of the witnesses whom he brought What is there more in the Fathers then was in those witnesses What was there more in Euagrius then is in many who liue now Hart. But you perhaps will cauil either at the persons or at the spéeches of the Fathers and thinke that euery toy is a sufficient reason why men should not beléeue them Rainoldes Whether the exceptions that I shall take against any be cauils and toyes let the iury iudge Nay I durst say almost let mine aduersarie iudge For what thinke you youâ— self if one alleage for scripture that which is not scripture may not that autoritie be iustly refused As if for example a man should write that Christ said to his disciples that which I say to one of you I say to all Hart. In deed M. Iewell alleaged that for scripture to proue that the wordes of Christ vnto Peter feede my sheepe feede my lambes were spoken n ot to him onely but to the rest of the Apostles Wherein he was iustly reproued by D. Harding For Christ did not say what I say to one that I say to all but what I say to you meaning the Apostles that I say to all Christians watch So good is our cause that M. Iewell could not make shew of truth against it but by foule corruption and falsifiing of the scriptures Rainoldes I pray be good to M. Iewell for M. Optatus and Fulgentius sake who both haue missealleaged the same words of Christ yea one of them in like sort as Bishop Iewell did For to proue that the words of the Lord to Esay Cry and cease not were spoken not to Esay onely but to all preachers he vseth this reason that Christ doth say to his disciples what I say to one of you I say to all Wherin as the doctrine of a preachers duty is true though the proofe be false so is in Bishop Iewell the doctrine of the Apostles duety And Bishop Iewels proofe from one Apostle vnto all is better grounded on the wordes then the other from Esay the Prophet to all preachers Moreouer the faulte remaineth vncorrected in â—ulgentius and Optatus Bishop Iewell hath corrected it Wherefore if you condemne him of fouly corrupting and falsifying the scripture because he missealleaged that sentence of Christ what iudgement will you giue of Fulgentius and Optatus Hart. Nay it is likely that they ouersaw it by a slippe of memorie Rainoldes The same would you iudge of M. Iewel if some what did not blinde your eye But by this your iudgement I see that where the Fathers mistake the wordes of scripture they may be refused What if they mistake not the wordes but the sense may we refuse them also there As Iustin the Martyr Irenaeus Papias Tertullian Victorinus Lactantius Apollinarius Seuerus and Nepos in that they thought that Christians after the resurrection should raigne a thousand yeares with Christ vpon the earth in a golden Ierusalem and there should mary wiues beget children eate drinke liue in corporall delites Which errour though repugnant flatly to the scriptures yet they fell into partly by confounding the first and second resurrection partly by taking that carnally which was mystically meant in the Reuelation Hart. That was the heresie of the Millenaries as they are called Howbeit in the Fathers though it were an errour yet it was no heresie Rainoldes I doo not say it was an heresie I say that they mistooke the meaning of the scripture which you can not denie Yea some times when they neither mistooke the words nor the meaning yet they taught amisse out of it As that God created the world in six dayes they vnderstood it rightly But to conclude thereof that the world should last but sixe thousand yeares because one day is with the Lord as a thousand yeares a thousand yeares as one day this was an ouersight For if that were true
and loosing giuen Peter as though after Peter it were proper to the Pope Denys saith the contrarie that it is common to all Bishops Whereby you may perceiue beside that if the title which he giueth Peter did proue his supremacie though I haue shewed it doth not but if it did yet your commoÌ„ reason from Peters supremacie to the Popes is iointlesse For he who calleth Peter chiefe of the Apostles yet maketh Bishops equal and giueth Rome no greater priuilege then Antioche or Ierusalem But to knit vp that which brought vs vnto this of Denys you sée that your Rhemists tale of the assumption of the blessed virgin is contrarie to the scriptures Yet they doo beléeue it for the authoritie of Fathers That I might dout iustly whether you would beléeue the Fathers in those things in which they are conuicted of errour by the scriptures Hart. I cannot beléeue that the scriptures are against it For the Church doth holde it I meane the Catholike Church of Rome Rainoldes In that your Rhemists lauish too For though the lying Greekes as your Molanus calleth them doo vouch it very boldly yet the Latin writers do say it is vncertaine Yea the verie Martyrologe of the Roman Church affirmeth that the Church celebrateth the memory of S. Maries death but where it hath pleased God to hide her body the Churches sobrietie hath chosen rather to be ignorant therof religiously then to holde and teach some friuolous thing forged How much the more shamefull is the misdemeanor first of a Papist who saith that it is certaine she was assumpted by death not onely in soule but in body also then of the Pope who setting foorth his new Portesse saith that those things which are vncertaine are put out where this is left in which they can not denie themselues to be vncertaine But your Rhemists passe Who as though the Porâ—esse were not bolde enough in alleaging Damascene though it mende his tale with more then one lye they take that which their Portesse doth tell them lye and al and father it vpon S. Denys that it may haue the greater credit Hart. Our Rhemists will render good account I dout not of this which they haue writen when they shall heare what is said against it And that which you declared out of the holy scriptures concerning the time of S. Denys conuersion which is the greatest argument that you brought yet to disproue the storie auouched of his preseÌ„ce at the departure of our Lady I must referre to them For I my selfe know not indéede how to accord it But why do you presse that point about the Fathers touching their ouerseeing ether the wordes or meaning or consequent of the scriptures We are past the scriptures and proofes that the Fathers do gather out of them Rainoldes But if they may gather amisse out of the scriptures and ouershoote them selues in the word of God they may be deceiued in the word of man too and either not conceiue well or not remember well or not conclude well of it Which hapned to S. Ierom in that same point that I reproued a litle rather in Eusebius For he reckning Philo the Iew amongst the Christian ecclesiastical writers doth it he saith for this reason because Philo writing a booke touching the first Church planted by the Euangelist S. Mark in Alexandria hath praised the Christians reporting them to be not onely there but in many countries and calling their dwelling places Monasteries Whereby it is apparant that the Church of beleeuers in Christ at the first was such as moonkes endeuour and seeke to be now that nothing is any mans owne in proprietie none is rich amongst them none poore their patrimonies are distributed to the needy they giue them selues wholy to prayer and to singing of Psalmes and to learning and to continencie of life such as S. Luke also doth write that the beleeuers were first at Ierusalem And this booke of Philo touching the life of our men that is of men Apostolike is entitled of the contemplatiue life of men that pray because they did contemplate studie and meditate heauenly things and prayed to God alwayes Thus farre S. Ierom. Wherein that the pointes of contemplation and prayer being somewhat like in them whom Philo wrote off and in the Christian Church did make him to mistake the one for the other as likenes they say is the mother of error but that they were not Christians whom Philo meant in that booke it may appeere by foure circumstances of names of deedes of times and of places For they of whom Philo doth write were called Essees which was a sect of Iewes of whom some liued in action and some in contemplation The Christians were neuer knowne by name of Essees either contemplatiue or actiue Againe they in Philo did leaue their goods and substance to their sonnes or daughters or kinsemen or if they had no kinsemen to their friendes The Christians gaue them to the poore and such as stood in need of succour Moreouer the solemne day which they in Philo did meete together publikely to heare the word of God taught was the seuenth day of the weeke which was the Sabbat of the Iewes the saterday as we cal it The Christians were wont to meete on the first day of the weeke that is sonday the Lordes day as S. Iohn termeth it Finally they whom Philo discourseth of did liue in no towne or citie but without in gardens and solitarie places The Christians liued in cities Euen they who are namely mentioned by Ierom I meane the Christian Church placed by S. Marke in Alexandria were planted in the citie Alexandria it selfe whereas it is precisely noted by Philo that his Iewish moonkes did dwell about it and without it Wherefore it is manifest that Ierom did mistake or had forgot the wordes of Philo. Howbeit if he had both well conceiued and remembred them yet he thereof inferred amisse that the moonkes in his time were such as S. Luke doth write that the beleeuers were first at Ierusalem For the beleeuers at Ierusalem might keepe their owne if they listed as Peter saith to Ananias while it remained perteined it not to thee And when it was sold was it not in thine own power But Ierom saith that his moonks may not haue proprietie in any thing of their owne Beside the moonkes of Ierom did liue in continencie The beléeuers at Ierusalem had wiues vsed them for any thing that S. Luke sheweth Though by the way to note the difference betwéene the Iewish moonkes the Christian who els would be too like some of the Christian moonks in Ieroms time had wiues did beget childreÌ„ which I haue not read that anie of the Iewish did Last of all the moonkes whom Ierom doth meane as he must néedes by Philo were moonkes according to their
the Ministers doth shew And herein their dealing is so much the worse because they set it out with the name of Erasmus as if he meant by sacrificing the saying of Masse which is farre from him For although by reason he thought that the word doth properly signifie not simply to minister but to minister in holy thinges as they who serue in the Priesthood therfore he did translate it that the Prophets Doctours in the Church at Antioche were sacrificing to the Lord yet he saith that hereby is meant that they imployed their giftes to Gods glory and the saluation of the Church the Prophets in propheciing the Doctours in teaching the doctrine of the Gospell So he vnderstandeth nothing els by sacrificing then others doo by ministring or rather then the scripture doth as it is obserued out of the circumstances of the text by the best of your own interpreters Who séeing that the men were Prophets and Doctours which are said to haue béene ministring to the Lord thereupon do gather that they serued him in executing their owne ministerie that is to say the ministerie of prophecying and teaching In which sort the Gréeke fathers doo expound it also what meaneth the word ministring say they it meaneth preaching Wherefore if the name of Liturgie were taken hereof by the Gréeke fathers as your Rhemists adde it is a good hearing but so much the lesse will it proue your Masâ—e For if they vnderstood preaching by ministring when the worde is spoken of Prophets and Doctours it is the more likely that when they applyed it to the ministerie of the Pastours â— seruice of the Church they meant the publike prayers and other holy functions which we doo call Diuine seruice As in truth they did For that which we call euening prayer they called the euening Liturgie as you would say the seruice doon to God at euening and in the verie Liturgie that is called Chrysostomes because he made some part of it belike not all for himselfe therein is prayed too but in that very Liturgie the word is applied to the Churches seruice in the same maner as it is to the seruice which Angels doo to God And I hope you will not affirme that the Angels doo say Masse in heauen Wherefore howsoeuer Erasmus did translate it after the phrase of his time wherein the Churches seruice was commonly called Missa the ministerie mentioned in the Actes of the Apostles doth not proue that sacrifice of which you would inferre your Priesthood As for the place of Esay in which it is writen you shall be called the Priests of God the Ministers of our God shal it be said vnto you the course of the text doth seeme to meane by Priestes all the seruants of God whom Peter calleth an holy Priesthood to offer vp spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God by Iesus Christ. For the words are spoken as in Christes person to all the faithfull and repentant who should be trees of righteousnes to build vp the Church and thereupon are promised that their enimies shall serue them and they shall serue God But in an other place of Esay I graunt the name of Priest is giuen to Pastors and Elders where speaking of the calling and conuersion of the Gentiles And of them saith he will I take for Priests for Leuites saith the Lord. Hart. S. Ierom doth expound the former place of them also But all is one to my purpose For séeing that Pastours and Elders as you terme them are called Priests in scripture and the name of Priest implyeth you confesse autoritie to sacrifice it foloweth that Pastours and Elders are Priestes autorized to sacrifice Now the Priest that hath autoritie to sacrifice is he whom you do call a Masse-priest Wherefore both Masse and Priests are proued by the scripture Rainoldes Why Thinke you that euerie Christian man and woman is a Masse-priest because the name of Priests is giuen them by scripture in respect of spirituall sacrifices which they must offer vnto God Hart. No. Because the sacrifices that they must offer are spirituall and are called sacrifices by a borowed kinde of spéech and not properly But the sacrifice which is offered to God in the Masse is an external visible true and proper sacrifice as it is declared by the Councell of Trent So that the Priestes ordeined to offer this sacrifice are properly called Priestes wheras other Christians are called so improperly according to the nature of the sacrifices which they offer Rainoldes Then the name of Priestes alleaged out of Esay doth not proue your Masse-priestes For he doth call the Ministers of the gospell Priestes in respect of the spirituall sacrifices which they must offer And that appéereth by the words going next before in which the Lord declaring euen by S. Ieroms iudgement too that he would call the Iewes to the same honour that by the name of Priests is signified and they saith he shall bring the Gentiles for an offering to the Lord as the children of Israel offer in a cleane vessell in the house of the Lord. So to bring the Gentiles as an offering to the Lord is that for which they who do bring such offerings are named Priestes and Leuites But the offering vp of the Gentiles vnto him is a spirituall sacrifice made by the Ministers of Christ as Paule sheweth when they conuert the Gentiles through the preaching of the gospell The sacrifice therefore in respect whereof the Ministers of the gospell are called Priestes by Esay is a spirituall sacrifice And as euerie faithfull person is a Priest because we must offer each his owne bodie a liuing sacrifice holy acceptable vnto God so that name is giuen to Ministers of the gospell because they are called to offer vp the bodies of other men in like sort Wherefore if priuate Christians are not Masse-priestes because their sacrifices are spirituall then sith the Ministers must offer vp the like sacrifices it foloweth by your answere that nether they are Masse-priestes Hart. The Ministers of the gospell must offer vp the like sacrifices I deny it not And in that respect it is true that nether they nor priuate Christians are proued to bee Masse-priestes But there is an other an externall sacrifice that Ministers must offer also euen that which our Lord in the prophet Malachie doth call a cleane oblation and saith that in euerie place it is sacrificed and offered to his name because his name is great among the Gentiles And that is the sacrifice in respect whereof the Ministers of the gospell are called Priestes properly and are indéede Masse-priests For the cleane oblation is the sacrifice of the Masse wherein the body and blood of Christ is offered vp vnto God his father as the Councell sheweth an oblation that cannot be defiled by the vnworthines or wickednes of them who offer it Rainoldes What And be
as our ancestours vnder the Pope as Ionathan Nor was it such turpitude for the nation of the Iewes to haue had religion reformed by two Kings though in a few yeares it caused sundrie alterations as for the nation of the Romans to haue kept idolatrie without alteration vnder high Priests for a thousand yeares together Hart. Well Whatsoeuer opinion you haue of the Princes supremacie your own Centurie-writers coÌ„trol it in generall Caluin in particular the grant thereof to King Harrie For they both reproue the title of head And it is al one to be head of the Church to be chiefe gouernour of causes ecclesiasticall Rainoldes Caluin reproueth not the title of head as the Protestants graunted it but that sense thereof which Popish Prelates gaue namely Steuen Gardiner who did vrge it so as if they had meant thereby that the king might do thinges in religion according to his owne will and not â—ée theÌ„ dâ—on according to Gods wil. In like sort is the headship of the Church controlled by the Centurie-writers For they say that Princes ought not to be heads to coine formes of religioÌ„ frame new points of faith as Ieroboam did his calues So what they mislike yâ— we grant not to Princes What we grant to Princes that they mislike not Nay the Centurie-writers do giue the same supremacie to our Prince that we do nor only to ours but to al in general Which Caluin also doth Nor only hée or they but the reformed Churches whole with one consent I might say euen your owne men too Yea euen your selfe too M. Hart. For when vpon occasion of spéech that I had with you touching this poynt before we did enter into conference by writing I brought you M. Nowels answere to Dorman wherin he hath confuted pithily and plainly the cauils which your Maister blancheth out of Caluin and the ancient Fathers against the Quéenes supremacie requesting you to reade it ouer you told me hauing read it that you had mistaken our doctrinâ— of that point and that if we gaue the Prince no greater soueraintie then M. Nowell doth you did agrée with vs. Hart. Indéed I had thought so do many take it that you meant to giue as much to the Prince by the title of the supremacie as we do to the Pope Where you giue no more me thinkes by M. Nowel theÌ„ S. Austin doth who saith that Kings do serue God in this as Kings if in their own realme they coÌ„mauÌ„nd good things forbid euil not only coÌ„cerniÌ„g the ciuil state of meÌ„ but the religion of God also And thus much I subscribe too Rainoldes Wil you procéede then to the later point wherein you would proue you sayd that the faith which we proâ—esse in England is not the Catholike faith Hart. I haue proued it alredy in part For the Catholike faith is the which we professe in the Church of Rome You professe not ye. As the points that you haue touched by the way of scriptures of traditioÌ„s of merits of sacrameÌ„ts of Priesthoode of the Masse the real preseÌ„ce the worship of Saints suÌ„dry others shew But I wil coÌ„fer no farder herof vnles I haue greter assuraÌ„ce of my life Rainoldes Assurance of your life to procéede in coÌ„fereÌ„ce by Gods grace you haue At least as great assurance as hetherto you haue had But you should rather say you wil conferre no farder vnlesse you had better assurance of your cause For that is the catholike faith which the Apostles did preach to al nations The Apostles preached that which is writen in the holy scriptures Therefore that which is writen is the catholike faith But the faith which we professe is all writen The faith which we professe then is the Catholike faith And this should appéerâ— as well in other pointes as in those alreadie touched if you would sift them The Lord grant you grace to consider of it that whatsoeuer become of your life temporall you may haue assurance of eternall life through knowledge of his holy truth SIX CONCLVSIONS touching THE HOLY SCRIPTVRE AND THE CHVRCH Proposed expounded and defended in publike disputations at Oxford by Iohn Rainoldes 1 The holy scripture teacheth the Church all things necessarie to saluation 2 The militant Church may erre both in maners and in doctrine 3 The authoritie of the holy scripture is greater then the authoritie of the Church 4 The holy Catholike Church which wee beleeue is the whole company of Gods elect and chosen 5 The Church of Rome is not the Catholike Church nor a sound member of the Catholike Church 6 The reformed Churches in England Scotland Fraunce Germanie and other kingdomes and common-weales haue seuered themselues lawfully from the Church of Rome Ierem. 51.9 We would haue healed Babylon but she is not healed forsake her ô children of God and let vs goe euerie one into his owne countrey TO THE RIGHT WORSHIPFVLL and reuerend in Christ the heads of Colleges and companie of students of the Vniuersitie of Oxford Iohn Rainoldes wisheth grace and peace from God the father and from our Lord Iesus Christ. WHen Anna the mother of Samuel had brought vp her child whom she had obtained of God with earnest prayers to put from her selfe the reproch of barennesse she consecrated him to God before Eli the Priest that he might liue and serue in the temple of the Lord. In like maner I desiring to consecrate to the temple of the Lord my Samuel as it were the first child of trauaile that God hath geuen to my barrennes haue thought good to present him to God before you fathers and brethren welbeloued in Christ who either are already or shall be put in trust with the charge of the temple to serue if it may any way the temple of the liuing God Perhaps a rash enterprise vndertaken somewhat more boldly then aduisedly chiefly séeing that it is so far inferior to the ripenes of Samuel And truely I haue hetherto béene stil of the minde that I had leiffer the things which I had brought foorth rather as vntimely fruites then perfit children should be kept within then come abroad into the light stay in the court of the temple then presse into the temple For I haue béen dealt with both oft and earnestly by my very frends that I would suffer to be printed and published as other sclender exercises made rather for the fence-schoole as you would say then for the field so chiefly my Orations which when I read the Gréeke lecture in our College I made to mine audience coÌ„cerning the studies of humanitie and philosophie Which yet I haue refrained to doo not of enuie for I haue addicted my selfe to wish well vnto the Church common wealth neither of vnkindnes as though I were not willing to gratifâ—e them whom I was greatly bound too but partly
the youthes in his Pasquines nor poore men haue cause to stand in doute of him though he threaten being armed with a leauer and a dish-clout that a wil quel all who stand in his way crush theÌ„ in peeces And if the Parasites of the Pope think that to be lightning which he hath â—â—asht to burn England sure it is such lightning as was after the Poet the lightning of Salmoneus who shaking oft a torch did counterfeit the thundring soundes and lightning flames of heauen But such kindes of lightning although they daunt the wauering Gréekes and towne of Elis whose king is Salmoneus yet they daunt not the vnuincible Christians and citie of the liuing God whose king is the Lord. And let him who flasht it take héed if he bee wise least his foolish lightning as they say it happened to the lightner Salmoneus be reuenged with true lightning of almightie God to the vtter ruine of him selfe his towne and citizens For the Church which is lead by the holy Ghost into all truth hath béene alreadie taught by him out of the scriptures and shall be taught farther through the grace of God what difference there is betweene the lightning of Bristow and the light of Iesus Christ the lightning of Bristow the heate whereof doth hurt the bodies which it striketh the light of Iesus Christ the beames whereof delite the men to whom it shineth the lightning euill and pestilent which blindeth them who sée and killeth them who liue the light good and healthfull which giueth sight vnto the blinde and life vnto the dead Neither are wee without many godly men of excellent autoritie learning and iudgement euen amongst them whom this Tertullus nameth reprochefâ—lly great Maiâ—ters who could haue shewed this long ago â—â—wbeit they haue stayed hetherto from dooing it either because they thought his folies were refuted before they were writen for that after the maner of the Popish writers he bringeth no new matter but scowreth vp old rustie stuffe as one of them did note long since or because they purposed first to encounter with such as had writen before and more pithily entending to deale after with the rest in due time as an other signified of late that he meant or because the controuersies being sufficiently traueled in by many they thought that they might well cease from this labour though the Papistes ceased not from their impudencie as Ieremie hauing answered Hananiah once gaue him no answere wheÌ„ he repeated his error or because perhaps some had no leasure from their weightier charge of feeding the Church some listed not to striue with such a railing person some while they thinke that others haue taken it in hand do let it alone al either remember the counsell of the wise man that thou must not alwayes answere a foole least thou become like him or if it were requisite to answere him now least he seeme wise in his owne conceit they straine curtesie who should doo it For my part least the Philistines should vaunt any longer as if their were no man amongst the Israelites that durst fight with Goliath or the Israelites be gréeued with hearing the host of the liuing God to be so defyed of an vncircumcised Philistin I purposed through gods grace though perhaps Goliath would haue disdained me as a childe yet I purposed to set vpon him in the name of the Lord of hostes the God of the host of Israel But when I had prepared my selfe to the battaile and chosen smooth stones out of the brooke of Gods worde which are mightie through God to cast downe holdes euery high thing that is exalted against the knowledge of God I heard that the matter was dispatched alreadie by a stoute and faithful souldiour of Christ by whom many Philistines had before beene conquered Whose worke as I vnderstood since is at the presse too and shall be shortly published Wherefore laying now aside my former purpose I thought on that demaund and promise of Bristow touching the scripture and the Church wherein he doth challenge and offer vs the combat For whereas a countrie man of ours vnder the title of an vnlearned Christian concealing his own name had set foorth a booke touching the autoritie of Gods word 〈◊〉 Church Bristow willeth him to set out his booke and put his name to it with approbation of our Rabbines and with priuilege and promiseth that he shal quickly see it answered This booke haue I sought for but could not fall vpon it all the copies of it as I ghesse being sold. Neither knew I how to speake with the autor who had coÌ„cealed his name I dout not but for good cause But to satisfie if not wholy yet as farre as I might the chaleÌ„ge of Bristow I haue set out this litle treatise of the same point with the autours name thereto approbation not of Rabbines whom we leaue to that Synagogue whose rulers loue to be called Rabbi Rabbi Maisters Doctours but of graue and learned men whom it concerneth Which thing I hope will like him so much the better because it compriseth not onely that question touching the scripture and the Church that he desireth to be set out but certaine other also of the same kinde chiefly touching the Church whereof he hath onely the bare name to boast of And I looke for an answere so much the sooner because there are now fower yeares past since he promised a Latin booke to which whether it be come abroad already or to come shortly he may ioine if it please him an answere to these Conclusions Wherein if he thinke it méete for him to deale there are thrée things both easy to be doon and reasonable in my iudgement which I will request him One is that he will set downe the text of my Conclusions wholy with his answere as I had determined to doo with his Demaundes that the readers may sée what he confuteth and how An other that he will not kicke against the prickes that he will yéelde to the truth and not go about to darken the cléere light of the sunne of righteousnes with cauils and sclanders The thirde that if he be ashamed to say the truth preuails against me yet in reprouing such things as he assayeth to reproue he will deale more soundly and sincerely then D. Stapleton hath doon in his Doctrinall Principles of faith a worke more full of wordes then truth For to confute our doctrine that the Church is the company of Gods elect and chosen which we teach of the Catholike Church and it is true he teacheth that euill men are mingled in the Church with good the reprobate with the elect which thing is also true in the militant Church But true thinges agrée with true thinges neâ—â—her doth one truth ouerthrow an other We hold that the Catholike Church which is commended to vs in the Creede is the whole company of
Gods elect and chosen He answereth that the militant Church which is mentioned in the scriptures too containeth neither all the elect nor them onely And by this answere he saith he hath confuted the errour and heresie of the Hussites But therein he dealeth like them of whom the prouerbe is I asked for hookes they say they haue no mattokes But to returne to my purpose I haue thought good to publish my Conclusions euen in the same sort as they were set downe in verses and opened with suppositions according to the order of publike disputations of our Uniuersitie the rather for this cause that straungers might perceiue the kinde of our disputations which and all things els of our Uniuersitie are so debased by Bristow as if wisedom had béene borne with them alone and should dye with them Now these six Conclusions containe the chiefe fountaines and as it were the very foundations of the controuersies which we haue with the Church of Rome That the light thereof will be some helpe I trust to such as are not wilfully blinde to scatter Bristowes mistes and all the mistie cauils of Bristowes mates and complices For where it is certaine by manifest proofe as the Church of Rome it selfe doth acknowledge that the whole doctrine of religion and faith which leadeth the faithfull to saluation and life by the true and right worship of God is contained in Gods word the Papists to establish their superstitions and errours that are against the scripture diuide the worde of God into scripture and traditions that what they can not finde in Gods writen worde they may cauill that is was ordered by Gods traditionarie word so to terme it An old sleight and policie of the ympes of Satan wherewith first the Scribes and Pharises of the Iewes did craftily assay to beguyle our Sauiour Christ as the Euangelistes haue writen afterwarde the heretikes Tatian Valentinus Marcion and their felowes assayed in like sort to beguyle Christians as Ierom and Irenaeus shew And these are the parents of that corrupt opinion concerning traditions which are called Apostolike as by olde heretikes so by new The Roman Church embraceth the opinion as her owne childe litle considering that it is a bastard not conceyued by Christ but got by theft from old heretikes Unlesse perhaps she had it rather by adoption from Marcus Antonius who when the Senate had ratified the actes of Caesar he added to Caesars acts what he listed and would haue it to stand as sure as if Caesar him selfe had enacted it But that the opinion it selfe is a bastard whosoeuer begot it an heretike or an Heathen and therefore to be shut out of the Lordes assemblie which bastardes are forbidden to enter into my first Conclusion sheweth wherein I haue declared that the holy scripture teacheth the Church all thinges necessarie to saluation Now the Papists being cast downe from this bulwarke retyre vnto the Church and say thereof it can not erre that although their traditions that is their errours did not spring from Christ yet can they haue no faute because the Church doth hold them Herodotus reporteth that Cambyses king of Persia burning with wicked loue of his owne sister asked the Persian iudges whether hee might mary her by the law of the realme Whereto they made answere after consultation that they found no law which permitteth a brother to mary his sister but an other law they had found yet which permitteth the king of Persians to do what he list The Persian iudges offended if they fained this law the Persians if they made it But vpon that answere Cambyses did ioyne him self incesâ—uously in mariage with his sister The Heathens haue reproued this fact of his as wicked and is not the Papists â—act most like vnto it The Roman Church the Quéene of Baâ—ylon hath burned with a cursed desire not of her brother as Cambyses of his sister but of idols superstitions The aduise of Bishops the Roman iudges hath béene asked whether she might mary superstitions and idols by the law of Christ. The Bishops haue caused the scriptures to be serched and they finde no law whereby the worship of idols and superstitions is permitted but an other law they haue found yet which prouideth that the Church can not erre in decreeing any thing The Roman iudges offended who fained this law the Romanists who allow it But vpon this sentence their Church pretendeth mariage committeth adulterie with superstitions and idols in most abominable sort Yet Bristow layeth it in the foundation of his house and maketh mention of it as if it were the law of Austin yea of Christ but impudently and fasly that it may well appéere he neither knew what Christ said nor what Austin meant Wherefore to ouerthrow the ruinous walles both of the house and the foundation I haue set the second Conclusion against it which proueth manifestly that the militant Church may erre not in maners only but in doctrine too And that being settled doth séeme withall to settle strengthen the third wherein it is auouched that the holy scripture is of greater credit and autoritie then the Church Truly I should maruaile that it could euer come into the minde of any man to thinke otherwise had not S. Paul foretold that the man of sinne the sonne of perdition should sit in the temple of God exalt him self aboue God Which prophecie hath béene fulfilled in their eyes who haue séene Antichrist preferred before Christ they haue séene Antichrist preferred before Christ who haue séene the Church aduanced aboue the scripture For what is detracted from the scripture the worde of Christ that is in déede detracted from Christ the autour of the word And that which in shew is yéelded to the Church is attributed in truth to the Pope of Rome Both these thinges are euident by Albertus Pighius whose sayinges concerning the scripture and the Church although they bee very insolent and vngodly yet there were amongst them who liued before Pighius euen of the chiefetaines of the Romish Church as namely the Fathers of the Councell of Constance and Cardinall Cusanus who spake more insolently They who liued since haue kept the sense and substance of Cusanus and Pighius in that they geue a Princely or rather a tyrannicall autoritie to the Church for expounding the scripture as Cardinall Hosius dooth But they haue put fresh colours on it and qualified as it were the rigour of the spéeches in so much that Bristow treading the steppes of Hosius requyreth not greater autoritie for the Church but séemeth wel content to make it equall with the scripture Howbeit hee speaketh so I know not how that I dare not auouch he is of that mind For though he doo chalenge like obedience to them both like truth like priuilege to be frée from errour yet in that hée addeth
that we beleeue the scripture because of the Church if he come as néere to the meaning of Cusanus as he dooth to his wordes that he thinke the scriptures credit and autoritie dependeth of the Church and the Church imparteth autoritie canonicall as Pighius expresly saith vnto the scripture he hath a harder forhead then I thought he had Yet Andradius the expounder and patrone of the faith of Trent speaketh much more modestly and religiously to geue him his due praise of the autoritie of the scriptures Which first he acknowledgeth that they haue not from men but from God not from the Church but from the holy Ghost and then he concludeth thereof that it is detestable to teach that either profane bookes may be made canonicall by the Church Bishops or such as are certainly canonicall may be refused Of the which things to affirme the one he saith it is a point of notorious impudencie the other of madnesse and impietie not to be suffered O that Andradius had likewise detested the cuppe of the whoores abominations in other things Or sith he is dead I would to God that all Christians who of godly mind mislike somewhat in her and who dooth not mislike somewhat would mislike the rest of all her filthinesse too nor onely be Christians almost as Agrippa but like both almost and altogether to Paul as Paul did wish to him To the which end that I might help them forward as much as lay in me I haue doone the best I can to heale the dangerous humors of opinions which do so anoy the tast of séely soules that they thinke the heauenly bread to be poyson and abhorre the swéetest foode of life as woormwood These humours that I speake off are peruerse errours which seduce them from the truth in that article of our Créede I beleeue the holy catholike Church For some are perswaded that the name of holy Church belongeth not to the whole company of the Christian people but to the Ministers onely and Bishops of the Church no not to the Ministers of euery Church neither but of the Church of Rome euen the Pope and Cardinals Whom to haue gotten by a certaine custome to be called the church and that the church had doon receiued and ordeined that which was do on receiued and ordeined by them Marsilius Patauinus did note in his age and it is too well knowen vnto men of yéeres Other some and they of the lernedder sort acknowledge that the Church doth signifie the company of faithfull men and beléeuers but they wil haue that company to bée a people assembled by their own Bishop and cleauing to the head that is to the Pope least the Papall State be any way impaired They comprehende therefore all such within that company as doo professe the faith both the good and badde holy and profane godly and hypocrites There are some also who thinke that by this point to beleeue the holy church the churches authoritie is commended to vs that we should trust credite and obey the church which the Councell of Trent it séemeth would insinuate though somewhat darkely and distrustfully But Bristow therein dooth beare the bell away For he the more easily to deceiue English men at least the simpler if not all worketh treacherie with the dooble signification of wordes expounding this article I beleeue the Church as if the meaning of it were I trust the Church betwéene the which things there is great difference and that very manifest in the Gréeke and Latin though in our mother tounge not so Yet this man was created Doctor at Dâ—way and some doo account him a man of much value O wretched professors of the Doway-schoole that created such a Doctour but more wretched Papistes if they geue credit to such a Doctour who whether he be sophister or sclaunderer more notable it is harde to say A learned man among the Heathens if I remember well said that physicians can not finde a medicine against the byting of a sclaunderer But because the things are possible with God which are impossible with men therefore vpon confidence of his gracious goodnes I haue assayed to make one against the biting of this sclaunderer and of the like in the fourth Conclusion wherein I haue declared setting apart the Prelates of the Church of Rome and goates mingled with shéepe that the holy Catholike Church which we beleeue is the whole companie of Gods elect and chosen Moreouer least the painting of the Romish Church should make vnskilfull young men to be enamored of her when they should heare many commend her as Catholike Apostolike and sound in faith to take this visard also away from her face wash away her painting with water of the holy Ghost I haue added the fifth Conclusion that the Church of Rome is not the Catholike Church nor a sound member of the Catholike church A matter cléere in truth but hard to be perswaded specially to louers for Cupide is blinde And as he saith in Theocritus The things that are not faire seeme faire to him that is in loue Daphnis in the Poet saith so to Polyphemus we by experience haue found it true in Bristow For he being besotted with the loue of the whoore is not content to say that she alone is Catholike that errour were more tolerable at least it were an error common to him with many But he affirmeth farther that the Church might be was called Apostolike for this cause onely that we might be directed thereby as by a marke to the Church of Rome founded by the Apostles Peter and Paul the onely Church now left of all the Churches Apostolike Which flattering spéech of this louer the Pope of Rome himselfe the bridegroome of his Church though doating on his bride too yet refuseth acknowledging that the Church was called Apostolike by the Fathers in the Creede to note the beginning of the Church which it hath from the Apostles because they deliuered once the Churches doctrine and spread it abroad through all the world As for them that geue the title of Catholike to the Church of Rome they must take aduisement how to cléere their boldnesse from attaint of sacriledge who decke an adulteresse with the spoiles of the spouse of Christ or to thinke the best of the Church of Rome who spoile the mother to decke the daughter and her not the best with great wrong and iniurie to the rest of the sisters For the name of Catholike dooth not appertaine to this or that Church but to the Church vniuersall continued through all nations ages and prouinces from Adam vnto vs and to our posteritie as the Councell of Trent and the expounders of the Councell such is the force of truth doo confesse plainly But the chiefest errour that is to be abated is theirs who are perswaded that the Church of Rome is of right
is it fully written by S. Iohn Let vs heare him selfe speake These things saith he are writen that ye may beleeue that Iesus is the Christ the sonne of God and that in beleeuing yee may haue life through his name In which wordes the summe and end of the gospell is set downe by Iohn the summe that we may beleeue that Iesus is the Christ the Christ that is the soueraine Priest Prophet and King the Sauiour of men the end that we beleeuing in Christ the sonne of God may through him haue life euen that which alone is called life rightly to wit eternall life Which things being so as the Euangelist him selfe teacheth it must néedes be granted that those things which are writen in the gospell are sufficient for vs both to the way of life and to life As much then as sufficeth to faith and saluation so much is writen in the gospell For if the things which are writen had not béene sufficient to faith and saluation there were mo thing◠which might haue bene writen so many as the world could not haue conteined But these were omitted by the spirit of God because the other were enough for his purpose For he giueth this reason why mo were not writen these things are writen that yee may beleeue and in beleeuing may haue life There is contained therefore in S. Iohns gospell so much as is sufficient to faith and saluation Then if S. Iohns gospell alone haue sufficient how plentifully hath Christ prouided for his Church as a most bountifull Lord for his houshold to which he hath giuen so many Apostles and Euangelists witnesses and expounders of the same doctrine Wherefore the scripture doth not onely teach the Church but also amply and plentifully teach it all things behoofull to saluation For although the substance of the Christian faith be single and the same wherewith as with meate the seruants of God are fedde to life eternall yet as the ages of the seruants differ and in ages different their cases differ too so was it méete there should be sundry sortes and waies to diuide that meate and as it were to season it for ech one his part as it might best agrée with him Whereof that we might haue a true liuely paterne set foorth by Christs owne spirit in the word of life for the féeding of the faithfull therefore hée gaue sundry woorkemen so to terme them and writers of his faith that although they deliuered all the same foode yet they did not dresse it all in one sort And so it cometh to passe that in those writers of the faith of Christ both the vnitie of doctrine in the diuersitie of deliuering yeldeth a swéete tast in the spirituall mouth of the godly minde and the manifold vse ministreth holesome nourishment to euery mans stomake the euident plainnesse in the groundes of faith maketh that euen they who are of deintiest mouthes can not refuse it for the toughnes and the hidden wisedome in the secretes of scripture both trieth the strongest and satisfieth them who are sharpest set and to say that in a word which no wordes can expresse enough the infinite treasures bring infinite fruits to the faithfull to procure them a blessednes that is exceeding great and infinite Wherefore it is a thing so cléere and so sure that those secretaries of the holy Ghost ioyned togither doo open to the Church in the holy scriptures all things behoofefull to saluation that he who knoweth it not may be iustly counted ignorant hée who acknowledgeth it not lewde hée who dissembleth it vnthankfull hée who denieth it more then wicked For what can there be in cléerenesse more euident or in peise more weightie or in strength more sound or in truth more certaine then that generall principle which S. Paul deliuereth not as Moses of the law not as Iohn of the gospell but of the whole scripture and holy writt to Timothee The whole scripture is giuen by inspiration of God and is profitable to teach to improue to correct to instruct in righteousnes that the man of God may bee furnished throughly furnished to euery good worke Thus if you demaund of what autoritie scripture is it came from God by inspiration if you regard what vse it hath it teacheth improueth correcteth instructeth if you would sée to what end it is that the man of God may be furnished Our dutie in Christ Iesus is faith woorking by loue Faith embraceth sound doctrine loue requireth a godly life Soundnes of doctrine is held if true things be taught and false refuted Godlines of life is kept if we fly from euill and folow good But the holy scripture teacheth the truth improueth errour correcteth iniquitie instructeth to righteousnes as it appéereth by the Apostles wordes Therefore it setteth foorth a mans whole dutie in Christ Iesus that is as I suppose so much as sufficeth to saluation For it is not onely profitable to these things as some doo mince the matter but sufficient too in so much that it is able to make a man wise to saluation through faith and to furnish him Yea to furnish what maner of man the man of God that is the Lordes interpreter the Minister of the worde the teacher of the Church the Pastour of the flocke euen Timothee himselfe much more the flock of the faithfull in whom so great furniture of wisdome is not necessary Howbeit the Apostle neither so contented with saying that the man of God may be furnished addeth to beat the absolute perfection of the scripture into our mindes and memories with as many reasons as he vseth wordes that the man of God may be furnished throughly furnished to euerie good worke Whereupon it foloweth that there is nothing at all that can be wished for either to soundnes and sinceritie of faith or to integritie and godlines of life that is to mans perfection and the way of saluation which the scripture geuen by inspiration of God doth not teach the faithfull seruantes of Christ. It is the iudgement therefore of the holy Ghost whose sentence I defend as I am bound by duetie that the holy scripture teacheth the Church all things necessarie to saluation Here if some perhaps desire the testimonies of the Fathers though to what purpose sith ye haue heard the Father of Fathers notwithstanding if any would heare the scholers iudgement when he hath heard the masters he shall heare the iudgement not of this or that man of whom he might dout but of the whole Church and of all the Saints For they with one agréement and generall consent haue termed the bookes of scripture Canonicall of the word Canon which signifieth a rule because they containe a worthy rule and squire of religion faith and godlines according whereunto the building of the house of God must be fitted Which opinion touching the Canon of the scripture allowed by Andradius himselfe the chiefest patrone of the Popish faith hath béene
and our Church doth hold The third Councell of Carthage which therein the Councel of Trent subscribeth to did adde the bookes of Maccabes the rest of the apocrypha to the old Canon The Councel of Nice appointed boundes and limits as wel for the Bishop of Romes iurisdiction as for other Bishops The Councell of Lateran gaue the soueraintie of ordinarie power to the Church of Rome ouer al other Churches The Councell of Constance decréed that the Councell is aboue the Pope and made the Papall power subiect to generall Councels Which thing did so highly displease the Councell of Florence that it vndermined the Councell of Basill and guilefully surprised it for putting that in â—re against Pope Eugenius Upon the which pointes it must needes be graunted that one side of these generall Councels did erre vnlesse we will say that thinges which are contrarie may be true both Wherefore to make an end sith it is apparant by most cléere proofes that both the chosen and the called both the flockes and the Pastours both in seuerall by them selues and assembled together in generall Councels may erre I am to conclude with the good liking I hope of such as loue the truth that the militant Church may erre in maners and doctrine In the one point whereof concerning maners I defend our selues against the malicious sclanders of the Papists who charge the Church of England with the heresie of Puritans impudently and falsly In the other concerning doctrine I doo not touch the walles of Babilon with a light finger but raze from the very ground the whole mount of the Romish Synagogue Whose intolerable presumption is reproued by the third Conclusion too wherein it resteth to be shewed that the holy scripture is of greater credit autoritie then the Church And although this be so manifestly true that to haue proposed it onely is to haue proued it yet giue me leaue I pray to proue it briefly with one reason I will not trouble you with many All the wordes of scripture be the wordes of truth some wordes of the Church be the words of errour But he that telleth the truth alwayes is more to be credited then he that lyeth sometimes Therefore the holy scripture is to be credited more then is the Church That all the wordes of scripture be the wordes of truth it is out of controuersie For the whole scripture is inspired of God and God can neither deceiue nor be deceiued That some wordes of the Church be the wordes of errour if any be not perswaded perhaps by the reasons which I haue brought already let him heare the sharpese and most earnest Patrone of the Church confessing it Andradâ—us Payua a Doctor of Portugall the best learned man in my opinion of all the papists reherseth certaine pointes wherein Councels also may erre euen generall Councels in so much that he saith that the very generall Councel of Chalcedon one of those four first which Gregorie professeth him selfe to receiue as the foure bookes of the holy Gospell yet Andradius saith that this Councell erred in that it did rashly and without reason these are his own wordes ordeine that the Church of Constantinople should be aboue the Churches of Alexandria and Antiâ—â—he Neither doth he onely say that the Councell of Chalcedon erred and contraried the decrees of the Nicen Cuncell but he addeth also a reason why Councels may erre in such cases to weete because they folow not the secret motion of the holy ghost but idle Blastes of vaine reportes and mens opinions which deceiue oft A Councell then may folow some times the deceitfull opinions of men and not the secret motion of the holy ghost Let the Councels then giue place to the holy scriptures whereof no part is vttered by the spirit of man but all by the spirit of God For if some cauiller to shift of this reason shall say that we must not account of that errour as though it were the iudgement of the generall Councell because the Bishop of Rome did not allow it and approue it I would request him first of all to weigh that a generall Councell and assemblie of Bishops must néedes be distinguished from this and that particular Bishop so that what the greater part of them ordeineth that is ordeined by the Councell next to consider that the name of Church may be giuen to an assemblis of Bishops and a Councell but it can not be giuen to the Bishop of Rome lastly to remember that the Bishop of Rome Honorius the first was condemned of heresie by the generall Councell of Constantinople allowed and approued by Agatho Bishop of Rome Wherefore take the name of Church in what sense soeuer you list be it for the company either of Gods chosen or of the called too or of the guides and Pastours or be it for the Bishop of Rome his owne person though to take it so it seemeth very absurd the Bishop of Rome him selfe if he were to be my iudge shall not be able to deny vnlesse his forhead be of adamant but that some of the Churches words are wordes of errour Now if the Bishop of Rome and Romanistes them selues be forced to confesse both that the Church saith some things which are erroneous and that the scripture saith nothing but cleere truth shall there yet be found any man either so blockishly vnskilfull or so frowardly past shame as that he dare affirme that the Church is of greater credit and autoritie then the holy scripture Pighius hath doon it in his treatise of the holy gouernment of the church Where though he in 〈◊〉 â—â—llify with gallant salues his cursed spéech yet to build the tower of his Church and Antichrist with the ruines of Christ and of the holy scripture first he saith touching the writings of the Apostles that they were giuen to the church not that they should rule our faith and religion but that they should bee ruled rather and then he concludeth that the autoritie of the church is not onely not inferiour not onely equall nay it is superiour also after a sort to the autoritie of the scriptures Plinie reporteth that there was at Rome a certaine diall set in the field of Flora to note the shadowes of the sunne the notes and markes of which diall had not agreed with the sunne for the space of thirty yeares And the cause thereof was this as Plinie saith that either the course of the sunne was disordered and changed by some meanes of heauen or els the whole earth was slipt away from her centre The Church of Rome séemeth to be very like this diall in the field of Flora. For she was placed in the Roman territorie to shew the shadowes of the sunne euen of the sunne of righteousnes that is of Christ but her notes and markes haue not agreed with Christ these many yeares togither Not that
so the golden treasure of truth by striking reasons as it were together is parted from the dregs which it hath not gotten froÌ„ the holy veines whence it is digged but from mens vessels wherein it is receiued and the corne that is sowen for the foode of the soule is winowed with the winde that bloweth from the holy Ghost by the husbandmen of heauen that it may be cleaner from the chaffe of errours The chéerefull vndertaking and faithfull performing of the which duetie the common wealth may chalenge at our hands of right specially for that it hath indowed and furnished this noble Vniuersitie and place of exercise of good learning with priuileges with houses with lands in ample sort to this intent chiefly that it might be a nurserie for Pastours of the Church For both it is méete that Pastours of the Church should be not onely able to edifie the faithfull with sound and wholesome doctrine but also to conuince them who gainesay it as S. Paul witnesseth and we shall be able to conuince gainesayers so much the more easily fitly and effectually if first we practise that in a warlike exercise which we may do after when we shall make warre with enemies in déede Now it there be any thing wherein it is very conuenient and behoofefull both for Christian souldiers to be well practised against the mischieuous attempts of their enemies and the golde of Christian truth to be throughly clensed from the drosse the wheate from the chaâ—â—e by the paines of husbandmen and workmen of the church doubtlesse thâ—s which I haue chosen to debate of is so profitable being knowen so perillous vnknowen that we haue great cause to bend all our wittes vnto the serch knowledge of it For there haue assailed the Church now this great while and scatteredly there range they of whom Christ hath warned vs to beware whom Peter did foretell of that they should be in the Church I meane false teachers and false prophets who comming to vs in the clothing of sheepe yet being rauening woolues in their hearts and déedes naming them selues the Church as if they were the onely sheepe of Christ do teach damnable heresies and blaspheme the way of truth To spred the infection of the which pestilence farther amongst the faithfull as Rabsakeh the Assyrian when he did sollicit Ierusalem to fall from God did vse the name of God against the people of God so that Romish Rabsakeh the enemie of the new Ierusalem doth vse the Churches name against the children of the Church He saith that Christians ought to beleeue the Catholike Church and that no Church is Catholike at all but the church of Rome and that we therefore who haue forsaken it haue fallen away from the communion of the catholike Church moreouer that there can not be any hope of saluation out of the Church and therefore that all who eyther leaue the Church of Rome or ioine them selues to any of our reformed Churches must needes be lost for euer This faire but false visard of the catholike Church doth leade many simple men out of the way who shunne the catholike faith while they are afraide least they should fal from the faith dare not ioyne them selues with the Church of Christ least they should be seuered from the coÌ„munion of the Church So that we may iustly say to the Bishops of Rome at this day that which a Roman Bishop did write long ago to the Bishops of Iewry Ye thinke your selues to deale for the faith O ye Romans ye go against the faith ye do arme your selues with the name of the church ye fight against the church Wherfore being perswaded that the handling hereof would auaile much to ease the ignorance of the vnskilfull and quaile the stubbornnesse of our aduersaries and furder which is the chiefe point the saluation of the elect I for the duety or rather more then duty which I owe to the church of Christ resolued with my selfe hauing such opportunitie of disputation offered to treate of the state of the Catholike of the Roman and of our owne Church The rather for that the foundations of this woorke are already layed in our former disputation wherein it was shewed out of the word of truth that the scripture teacheth all things needefull to saluation that the church may erre while it is militant on the earth that the autoritie of the church is subiect to the scripture Which things being setled it will be the easier to build thereupon that which I haue purposed I meane to lay open the nature and condition of the catholike church the corruption of the Roman and the soundnes of ours But before I enter into the opening of these pointes which I will doo by Gods grace briefly as the time sincerely as the charge requireth first I must desire and craue of you all my hearers most earnestly not that you will giue mée an attentiue eare which of your owne accord ye doo but that with your eare you will bring a minde desirous to embrace the truth In Athenes there were iudges called Areopagites whose order was such as the Heathens write and commend them for it that they bid the pleader pleade without preambles and made him to be sworne that he should tell them no vntruth them selues did heare the cause with great silence while it was pleading and iudged of it with great vprightnes when they had heard it Such Areopagites would I haue you brethren in this our Christian Athenes shew your selues to me warde I wil declare the matter as a pleader ought simply and sincerely without preambles though vnbidden and without vntruthes though vnsworne Giue you as iudges should doo fauourable audience without a partiall preiudice of foreconceiued errors and sentence with the truth without corrupt affections according vnto right and reason And I would to God you would heare me in such sort as Denys the Areopagite heard Paul the Apostle whose words of the vnknowen God he beleeued perswaded by the light of truth though against that opinion which hée had foreconceiued God the father of lightes and autour of truth who gaue Paul a fiery tongue to lighten and kindle the mindes of his hearers who moued the hart of Denys to sée the light of godlines and to be set on fier with it vouchsafe with the direction of his holy spirit both to guide my tongue that it may serue to open the mysteries of his word and to soften your hartes that the séede of life may fall vpon a fruitfull ground Open our eyes O Lord and we shall sée giue vs fleshy heartes and we shall assent Let thy spirit leade vs into all truth and let thy word be a lanterne to our feete that wée may beléeue the things which thou teachest and doo the things which thou commaundest to the euerlasting glory of thy goodnes and our owne saluation Amen In the treatie of the matter that I set in hand with
the which the ministers of God are remoued from gouernance by the Pope who being not a voluntarie Senator as Tully iesteth at Asinius himselfe chosen by him selfe but a voluntary tyrant doth take vpon him selfe the rule of the whole church Who to get the soueraintie that he aspireth to doth cast off the foly of Paul and of Peter and neither will him selfe nor suffereth his to be subiect vnto higher powers Who autoriseth him selfe to giue and take away the dominions and kingdomes of the whole world as if that all Princes held their right of him Who chalengeth the two swordes as he termeth them the spirituall and temporall and that by the gospell because it was saide for sooth by the Apostles Beholde herâ— are two swordes Who hauing committed the temporall sword in part to ciuill magistrates and reserued it in part to him selfe hath put vp the spirituall sworde of all Pastors into his owne sheath Who of church-ministers hath made him selfe Cardinals felowes of kinges gardians of Princes Protectors of nations a Senate meete for such a â—arquin Who exacteth an oth of Emperours of Bishops of Christian common wealthes Uniuersities and Churches to be obedient vnto him Who admitteth I say not Cornelius the Centurion which Peter yet would neuer haue doon but the Lordes of Centurions euen Kinges and Keisars Emperours and Empresses to kisse his blessed feete Finally who being in Princely attire and accompanied with Princely traine serued not by common but by noble men wearing not a single but a triplâ— Crowne called by his Parasites our Lord God the Pope by discréete Doctors most good in grace most great in power as full of riotous pompe and pride as euer were the Persian kings z His clothes bedeckt with precious stones â—his gorgeous miter dight With iewels rare with glistring gold with Pyropus bright O very Troian truls not Troians hath taken the state ecclesiasticall of Christ appointed in noble order as an army set in aray and hath transformed it as it were with an enchauntment of the whoore of Babylon into a visisible monarchie and kingdome of the Romans And that the old saying might be fulfilled new Lordes new lawes such lippes such lettise as one said of an asse that was eating thistles this new Prince the Pope hath brought in new lawes to gouerne his kingdome in stéede of Gods lawes which Christ would haue to rule his Church and in stéede of the Canon of the holy scriptures he hath ordeined his Canon law Touching the vnrighteousnes of the which law least any man should think me perhaps to finde fault with that I haue no skill in as the shoomaker did whom Apelles warned not to presume beyond his shooe I had leiffer you should heare the iudgement of a learned Doctour and professour of the law then mine Francis Duaren a man of great skill in both the lawes ciuill and canon and named amongst lawiers the chiefest lawier of our time hath writen a learned treatise touching the holy functions and liuings of the Church as it were an abridgement of the canon law allowed by the iudgement of the Parlament of Parisâ— and set foorth with the priuiledge of the French king that no man can iustâ—y 〈◊〉 either the autor or the worke as hereticall In 〈…〉 then of the said treatise declaring that the body of the Canon law consisteth of two parts to weete Decrees and 〈◊〉 Decrees which were gathered together by Gratian 〈◊〉 epistles writen by sundry Popes he saith that in the â—irâ—t volume of Decretales conteining fiue bookes set out in the name of Gregory the ninth there are many things that doo much degenerate and grow out of kinde from that old discipline comprised in the former booke of Decrees And hence arose that saying which is common and famous amongst our countriemen he meaneth the Frenchmen Things haue gone ill with men since tales were added to Decrees that is since the time that in steed of the Decrees the Decretales did beare sway For the Church-causes had lost their olde simplicitie when Decrees were patched out with those tales as the world is wont to growe worse and worse So destenies do prouide That all thinges fall vnto decay and backe efisoones they slide As for the other volume the sixth booke of Decretales which Boâ—iface the eighth added it hath not bene receiued in the kingdome of France because the constitutions and ordinances thereof are thought to haue bene purposely made the most part of them in hatred and despite of Philip the French king and for the game of the court of Rome No not the Clementines neither nor Extrauagants the last part of the Decretales are voyde of like faultes nay the later lawes of the Popes be commonly worse then the former And this is the body of the Canon-law these are the Popes statutes by the which though very vnméete for the church in Duarens iudgement yet is the church of Rome gouerned and it is so gouerned that the Decrees which are the better part haue lesse autoritie the Decretales which are woorse haue greater force in Church-causes and are more authenticall Yea the matter came to that passe that Gratian the principall autor of the Canon law would haue had the Decretall epistles of the Popes to be accounted holy and reckened in the number of the Canonicall scriptures For the better compassing and credite whereof he did most shamefully corrupt a saying of S. Austins But it would not â—ay In so much that the Papists Alfonsus and Andradius are them selues ashamed of that his either wilfull fault or ouersight The Decretales therefore remaine not in the number of the Canonicall scriptures which hope the Giants fayled of through the diuision of their toungs yet equall in autoritie to the canonicall scriptures yea aboue them in deciding Church-causes at Rome For that which S. Bernard complained off to Pope Eugenius long since he might complaine off to any Pope in our time if he were aliue the lawes keepe a great sturre dayly in your Palace but the lawes of Iustinian not the lawes of the Lord. Whether iustly or no looke you to that For doutlesse the law of the Lord is vndefiled and conuerteth soules But these are not so much lawes as law-quarels and strifes subuerting iudgement Besides that the maner of dealing which is vsed in debating causes is too too abominable and such as is maruellous vnseemely for the church nay it were not seemely for the common place where ciuill matters are handled He meaneth that maner which the Popes Court of Chauncerie at Rome had bred long before though it were not growen yet to that bignesse to which it shot vp afterwarde euen that maner of dealing which is practised in the brabbles and cauils of aduocates