New Testament See Rom. 1.19 20. 2 Tim. 3.15 16.17 John 17.3 3. Your Conformity of Faith to the Church in a Popish sence is a novel phrase not used by the first Christians nor the Apostles of Christ in any of their writings nor did they ever bid men beleeve as the Church beleeved though that was of greater authority then the present Church is but still called their faith to the Word of God contrary to which if Paul or any other Apostles yea or Angels from Heaven did preach the people were to reject them and no doubt if Paul had preached such stuff as now Popish Sermons are filled with traditions and new decrees ungrounded on Gods Word the Beraeans had rejected him and his praying It was for want of this Conformity of Faith to the Word of God that our Saviour upbraids the two Disciples that travelled to Emaus Luk. 24.25 He saith not O flow of heart to beleeve all that the Church beleeves this as I said was no Scripture language nor known to primitive Christians but to beleeve all that the Prophets have spoken And that he may lead them to this Conformity of Faith he expounds not the Decrees and Constitutions of Scribes and Pharisees who sat in Moses Chair whereof there were many but 't is said Beginning at Moses and all the Prophets he expounded unto them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself vers 27. Sir I beleeve you are so dutiful a son to the Church that had you been in Christs stead you would rather have told them of Popes decretal Epistles then of Prophets writings of Traditions rather then Scripture if such things then had had a being But 4. Why could not you say a Conformity of Faith to the Truth revealed as well as a Conformity of Faith to the Church revealing the Truth The Truth revealed not the Church revealing it is the Rule of Faith as I shall shew hereafter 1. You might have done well once for all to have told us what you mean by The Church for the word is diversly attributed even by those who in general agree that it is only the Roman Church as you seem by your Epistle to the Reader to understand it 2. You urge Scripture to prove your Assertion viz. three Texts Mat. 28.19 Luke 10.16 Mat. 16. The two first do not so much as mention the word Church the last mentions the word but proves not the thing you bring it for 1. Mat. 28. Going teach ye all Nations Ans I wonder in what word the proof lies I suppose it 's not in Going and I dare say Teaching proves it not for then every Teacher should be a Rule of Faith besides the Apostles were not to teach men to hang their faith upon themselves or others whether of the Roman or any other Church but they were commanded to teach men to do whatsoever Christ had commanded vers 10. amongst which this was the principal work to believe on him whom God had sent Joh. 6.29 viz. Jesus Christ to whom they were brought by the Apostles preaching as living stones to be built upon a foundation 2. Luke 10.16 He that heareth you heareth me Ans I suppose this Text is brought to explain the other which had need of a Commentary to make it speak your language But 1. This is spoken primarily and absolutely of the Apostles who were Christs mouth in delivering the Scriptures and therefore infallibly inspired by the Holy Ghost that they could not err in what they delivered to us That which Moses was to the Jews in delivering the Law the same were the Apostles to us in delivering the Gospel So that he that heareth the Apostles heareth Christ because it was the word of Christ which they did speak and this way we hear the Apostles speak yet whilest wâ— read or hear the Scriptures which they pen'd but what is this to the present Roman Church and her unwritten Traditions 2. As it 's understood of ordinary Ministers in the Church it can only be understood conditionally He that heareth you while your doctrine agreeth with the Word of God heareth me so that faith is not a conformity to any Teachers or their doctrine but so far as their doctrine is agreeable with the Scriptures which indeed are the Rule both of their preaching and our beleeving Consonantly hereunto the Apostle saith If any man teach otherwise and consent not to wholesom words even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ he is proud from such withdraw thy self 1 Tim. 6.3 c. The Scribes and Pharisees who were the Church in a Popish sence were to be heard but it was whilest they sate in Moses Chair that is whilest they preached not their own traditions and phancies but Moses doctrine Arias Montanus saith Elucid in Mat. 23. Christ bids them do what the Scribes and Pharisees commanded Ex praescripto legis id est ex Cathedrâ Mosis So Origen Origen apud Lyran. Super Cathedram c. isie sermo de me est qui bona dâ—ceo contraria gero 3. The Text speaks not of the Church for particular Ministers in the Church are not the Church Now your Rhemists expound it of them in these words It is all one to despise Christ RheÌ„ Annot. on the Text. and to despise his Priests and Ministers in the Catholique Church to refuse his doctrine and theirs And indeed it must be understood of those who labour in the Word and Doctrine not of non-preaching Popes and Prelates 3. Mat. 16. you would say Mat. 18.17 which you read thus He that heareth not the Church let him be as an Heathen and a Publican Not to say any thing of your false quotation or reading a fault common throughout your Book Protestants may take notice what great cause we have to put these men into our bosoms as they expect whilest they profess we are no better then Heathens or Publicans though I am sure their usage from us hath shewed us Christians But to the Text How little it makes for your purpose the Context words themselves will shew It speaks not of Conformity of Faith to the Church but of obedience of the offending party to the admonition of the Pastors of the Church Thus Lyranus Si non aud Eccles pr ceptum praelatos contemnendo Lyr. in loc You might as well say that faith is a conformity to our selves because it 's said If he neglect to hear thee vers 15. or to two or three witnesses because it 's said If he neglect to hear them vers 17. whereby is implied that he ought to hear them Hence it might well follow that faith ought rather to be resolved upon a neighbor that is a private man then upon the Church because the offended party is first to be heard before the Church And then Sir who is guilty of the Private spirit that you anon talk of Sure your selves and not the Protestants In stead of these misapplied Scriptures for you I shall give you
one or two plain Scriptures proving the Word of God to be that whereunto a Christians faith is to be conformable The Apostle continued witnessing both to small and great saying None other things then those wâ—ich the Prophets and Moses did say should come to pass Acts 26.22 This was his teaching And for his own faith you have it Acts 24.14 This I confess unto thee that after the way which they call Heresie so worship I the God of my fathers believing all things which are written in the Law and the Prophets I shall put you in mind of what one of your Proselites writes about this Point I found that by consent of all Christians Dr Vane Lost Sheep return p. 5 6. this knowledg of the means to attain to happiness was not to be gotten by clear and evident sight nor by humane discourse founded on the principles of Reason nor by reliance upon Authority meerly humane but Only by Faith Grounded On The Word of GOD revealing unto men things that were otherwise only known to his infinite Wisdom seeing the Church to the worlds end must be built on the Apostles and Believe Nothing as Matter of Faith beside that which was delivered of them as St. Paul saith Ephes 2.20 Your self also when you come to the Point to speak of the Rule of Faith say that the Truth of God revealed and expressed to us is the Rule of Faith Chap. 9. If Faith be grounded on Gods Word and that this Word of God be the Rule of Faith How can the Church be it seeing there is a vast difference betwixt the Truth and the Church as betwixt a Rule and him that bears it Can you say properly that a man that keeps the standard in his house is the standard or that the post that bears it is it or that the ship that carries the compass is the compass Now you only say that the Church is the Pillar of Truth i. e. it doth but bear it If the Church be the Rule of Faith then I wonder what Rule they have sure not themselves and they being men like us they cannot be without a Rule no more then they can be Christians and yet want faith 3. You say By the first Conformity man comes to the knowledg of God as he is the Author and End of Grace by the second he relies upon his Mercy and Goodness c. Ans 1. You seem to make faith a bare knowledg distinct from reliance on Gods mercy and goodness whereby you give too little to faith whose acts are not only to discern God and divine objects but to rely upon that merciful and good promise of God whereby he offers himself and divine objects to be received by us By this receiving is faith expressed John 1.12 If faith be no more but bare knowledg then Devils yea Reprobates may have true faith yea and may hope in Gods mercy for faith is the foundation of sound hope Your Vasquez is more ingenious then most of you for he acknowledgeth that besides a dogmatical or historical faith Vasq in 1. 2. To. 2. disp 209. c. 1. 4. which he calls Catholike there is also a peculiar faith whereby a Christian believes that he is or shall be justified or saved And this faith is the foundation of that hope you mention and not much differing from it only that as hope looks at the thing promised so faith doth more directly reflect upon the promise though Vasquez saith the same of faith that you of hope Cujus generis est fides qua aliquis credit se a Deo per orationem obtenturum id quod petit c. I shall conclude this with the words of learned Rivet Ineptiunt ergo ne quid gravius dicam qui cum tribuant fideli spem fiduciam circa electionem gratiam salut m Propriam fidem tamen negant Rivet sum Cont. Tract 4. q. 16. ss 6. But as you cast faith here below it self so in the next Chapter you set up Charity above it self making it the soul of faith CHAP. III. Of the Diversities of Faiths Hopes and Charities IN this Chapter I shall only take notice of two passages 1. You say The means of habitual and actual divine Faith Hope and Charity is the Tradition of the Church Ans 1. If by the Tradition of the Church you mean the true and right Exposition of Scripture made by faithful Pastors and Teachers of the Church as Vincentius Lyrinensis understands it then I shall easily consent to you for it is no more then the Apostle himself asserts when he saith Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God Rom. 10.17 But 2. If you mean the Churches opinions distinct from Scripture or unwritten Verities as they are called by you then I affirm that these are not means for your proposed end the Scripture it self without your additions being sufficient to make the man of God perfect in all graces And this you are not altogether unconvinced of as appears by your Preachers who in their Sermons do ground their discourses upon Texts of Scriptures and I suppose their Sermons are intended to be means of faith hope c. 2. You say St Paul gives to Charity the preeminence And not undeservedly for she is the enlivening Soul of Faith and Hope c. both they being out of her company as dead bodies without life or motion c. Your assertion is grounded upon two Scriptures viz. 1 Cor. 13.13 and James 2.26 For the first I freely subscribe to the preeminence of Charity but upon the Apostles reason not yours which is the continuance of Charity when Faith and Hope fail Thus the Apostle is understood by your ordinary Gloss Primasius Augustine and the generality of Expositors In presenti tria haec Lyran. in 1 Cor. 13.13 in futuro sola charitas permanebit Majus est ergo quod semper erit quam quod aliquando cessabit But you say It 's the Soul of Faith c. This I deny For 1. Your own Authors do earnestly contend that true faith yea that faith that justifies and is joyned with hope and charity 1 Cor. 13.13 may be without charity charity therefore cannot be the soul of faith for the enlivening soul cannot be absent from its body and yet that body remain a true living humane body 2. The Apostle saith that faith without works is dead as the body without the soul yet you will not say that good works are the soul of faith whereby it hath life and motion Your Rhemists assert it that the Thief on the Cross wanted good works and thereupon conclude RheÌ„ Annot. on Luke 23.43 that Faith hope c. will be sufficient and good works not required where for want of time and opportunity they cannot be had Now can you say that his faith was without life and motion It had so much life and motion that it brought him to Heaven by your own confession Now if the
much strength in them He that reads the Scriptures with a spiritually enlightened mind cannot but confess that never meer man spake like the Holy Writers and that flesh and blood revealed not those things to them which they declare but God only 2. Upon what account was this truth taken up by the first Christians for the space of three hundred years after Christ they could not take it up upon the Churches account and credit for your Authors hold that its only in the power of Oecumenical Sinods to define which are the Scriptures and for this time there was no such a Sinod called The first Sinod that I finde delivering the Canon of Scripture was that of Laodicea held about the year 364. Afterwards the third Council of Carthage both Provincial Sinods only though afterwards confirmed in a General Council 3. Upon what account or credit doth your Church take up this truth that the Scriptures are the Word of God Sure you are so great an Enemy to Spiritists that you will not think of extraordinary Revelations or Enthusiasms I hardly think that ever the Holy Ghost fell upon your Popes or Councils in fiery Tongues or that they had either visions or dreams nor do I think that you will say that your Church propoundeth the Canon of Scripture meerly upon the supposal of former practise that former Churches did allow and believe the Scriptures now received are Canonical for this is only a testimony concerning matter of fact in which 't is confessed the Pope may erre through wrong informations There may be spurious Canons foisted into former Councils like Pope Zozimus Canon of the Nicene Council whereby he maintained his Supremacy I therefore suppose that your judgment must be that your Church assisted by the Spirit doth from internal notes of Scripture conclude the divine authority thereof Hence 't is that Councils proceed by argument and reason and there is an acknowledgment of the truth before they proceed to definition or Decree Now if the Church take up Scripture upon this account that she through the assistance of Gods Spirit discerns the notes and marks of Gods Word why may not a Christian by the same assistance discover these notes and so believe that the Scriptures are Gods Word upon the same account that the Church takes up this beliefe though withal he doth and ought to reverence and highly account of the judgment of the Church or Pastors of it as that which hath a Priority and is an occasion of Christians private judgment and a confirmation of it yet as I hinted before it must not be denied that Christians have a divine light in themselves being taught of God Joh. 6.45 which is for the discovery of divine objects as natural light or reason is for the discovery of natural This Bellarmine confesseth saying Bellar. de lumine fid Conc. 1. Quemadmodum omnes homines c. As all men are indued with a certain natural light whereby they understand the first principles to be true without labour without arguments nor is there any that demands reasons and arguments when those principles are propounded So also all Christians enlightened by God with a certain divine and supernatural light do acknowledg the first principles of our Faith though difficult and exceeding reason to be most true Origen in his Book 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 where he proves the Divinity of Scriptures by divers arguments Origen lib. 4. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 cap. 1. as Protestants do hath a notable speech to this purpose Si quis cum omni judicio c. If any one doth judiciously and with that reverence that is meet consider of the Sacred Writ while he reads and diligently searcheth into it most certainly having his minde and senses affected with some divine inspiration he acknowledgeth that the word he reads is not the word of men but of God and of himselfe perceives ex semetipso sentiet that these books are written not by humane art or mortal eloquence but by the hand of God Thus I suppose it was with the first Christians of whom you cannot say that they believed the books of Scripture to be the Word of God meerly because the Apostles and others held them they were so but upon other account this overthrows your Position What I have said of the Scriptures may be said of other points of Faith that they are not taken up meerly or mainly upon the Churches credit and account but rather because God hath revealed them in his Word wherein they are therefore written that we might have a sure argument for our Faith But I come to your next inference 2 Consequence or Conclusion Whatsoever comes upon any other score is to be reputed Apocriphal and no way appertaining to the obligation of faith Magna Diana Romanorum Great is your Roman Goddess but its only with the Shrine-makers of Rome your conclusion is very high but notoriously false For 1. It s not the Churches definition that makes any book Apocriphal but the want of divine inspiration in those who wrote them so that whatsoever is not written by the Prophets or Apostles the Subjects of divine inspiration that is certainly Apocriphal whether the Church receive them or not Hence many of your learned men reject those books as Apocriphal which the Council of Trent declared to be Canonical the Apostle saith All Scripture is by divine inspiration 2 Tim. 3.16 the Scriptures of the Old Testament are called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 2 Pet. 1.19 read Luke 24.27 2. It was six hundred years after Christ before any General Council delivers the Canon of Scripture now will you say that till that time the books of Scripture were Apocriphal and no way appertaining to the obligation of Faith 3. The Spirit of God may work Faith in the Soule while it is reverently reading the Word of God without the testimony of the Church the person for the present being ignorant what the Church teacheth of particular points this is clear by the place of Origen even now mentioned Lyranus speaks of a teaching of the Spirit Lyran. in 1 Joh. 2.27 Vbi deficit humana Doctrina 4. When the Thessalonians received the Apostles Doctrine not as the word of men but as the Word of God Greg. Analus fid lib. 1. c. 15. was this Doctrine no way appertaining to the obligation of Faith Your Gregory of Valence confesseth Multa sunt c. There are many points of Christian Doctrine which of themselves can procure to themselves credit and authority Lastly the Greek Church with the reformed Churches receive all the Articles of the Apostles Creed because consonant to Gods Word not because delivered by your Roman Diana are those Articles therefore to be reputed Apocriphal and no way appertaining to the obligation of Faith Sure you cannot be so impudent as to assert it though we know Jesuitical impudency is not little For your Scriptures Sect. 2. When I see them reduced to arguments I shall
capacity of our condition is not sufficient to denominate or render the subject it is in perfect or an exact keeper of the Law of God If a debter owe twenty pound and hath but five pound which he pays to his Creditor doth the payment of this five pound which is as much as the present capacity of his condition reacheth to denominate and render him a perfect payer of his debt I trow not and pray Sir shew the difference betwixt this and your assertion CHAP. VI. Of Religion 1. YOu assert that Religion consists in belief not humane grounded upon reason but relying on the Churches authority and the assistance of the Holy Ghost Religio est virtus perquam homines Deo debitum cultum reverentiam exhibent Aquin. 22. q. 81. 1. c. religio est quae cultum honorem Deo tribuit Azor instit mor. p. 1. l. 3. c. 26. l. 9. c. 5. p. 23. Answ 1. The proper act of Religion is to worship and bring honour to God with relation to whom only Religion is defined by your Schoolmen and others This worship is due to God only and is that whereby we give up our selves unto God as the supream Lord of all and do place our hope and that in him as Azorius defines it According to this faith is a part of divine worship an act of Religion but relating to God the supream Lord of all not to the Church which is only a servant under him or if you will an assembly of his servants and indeed its reason that faith should refer to God it being the principal act by which a creature honours God and therefore is more pressed then any other Evangelical duty and besides its requisite it have a settled object to rest upon which is Gods authority for the Churches is not always visible Abraham beleeved but his faith relied not upon the Churches authority The Blessed Virgins faith could not rest upon any authority of the Church especially at Christs death when your men affirm that the Church was in her only but even then the Word of God the material object of faith had a visible existence and the fidelity of God faiths formal object was present with her to lean upon The Scriptures you urge to prove that faith relies on the Churches authority viz. Mark 16. John 14. make nothing for you the later speaks only of the Disciples instruction by the Spirit of God The former proves that we must beleeve the Gospel the material object of faith but saith not a word of the Church it saith not he that relies upon the Churches authority shall be saved Whosoever beleeves the Gospel whether he receive it from the Church or not shall be saved I challenge you or any that dotes on the word Church to give me any Scriptures that teacheth to beleeve in or on the Church and think you not the Apostles knew how to speak as well as you 2. I have already shewed that the Churches authority is but humane in the judgment of learned Papists and that the Spirits assistance makes her not infallible nor a guide or rule of belief Your self do in effect confesse at least of the present Church For you say pag. 16. To be the guide of belief requires further ability and skill to lay open immediately to belief Gods reveled truth a prerogative belongs to the Church and no other as to whom alone revelation was made Now this ability is not in the Church she laies not open immediately Gods reveiled truth whether hereby you mean that the Church speaks to the heart the seat of faith or that she doth it not by means of the Scriptures the Church lays open divine truths by the means of Scripture Besides the Church is not the subject of revelation which you say is the foundation of this prerogative Your Logical proceeding in councels shew your want of reuelation Your consciousness hereof makes you say revelation WAS made it was but is not so now 3. Your inference hereupon is 1. Thus The Religion of sectaries is vain their b lief being grounded on some humane respect not upon the warrantable authority of the Church ibid. Answ There may be belelief gounded neither on the authority of the Church nor on humane respects Consult Azorius and he will tell you that there are Cathâ—liques who ground not their faith on the authority of the Church and yet ground it not upon humane respects The Word of God revealed unto us by the light of faith wrought in the soul by the spirit is no humane respect and this Orthodox Christians build their belief upon 2. Inference For them to deserve the name of true Christians and to be stiled of the right Religion their only way is to level at perfection that takes its rise from an absolute resignation of their wills to the will of God in order to the Church which is to become spiritually little ones Matth. 18. Answ 1. Where do you learn that this grounding our belief upon the authority of the Church is the way yea the only the way to be true Christians and of the right Religion Are not those Papists who differ from you in this point and such there are as I have shewed true Christians and of the right Religion I am sure they are Papists for the main and therefore cannot be of a wrong Religion if popery be the right 2. Who told you that that Text of Matthew was to be so expounded I have seen divers expositions of the fathers on this Text different from yours but I find not one that from it doth teach us to ground our faith on the Church as the only way to true Christianity and the right Religion 3. It s a good lesson to teach us to submit our wills to the Will of God but it doth not appear that we should ground our faith upon the Churches authority the Scriptures are altogether ignorant and destitute of expressions of such a duty CHAP. VII Of the unity of Religion JN the beginning of this Chapter you assert that True Religion is One but presently fal upon the unity of persons in this one Religion and to the means whereby they come to be united which means you propound in these words viz. Experience shews that this unity of Religion is an effect of acknowledging the Church for the rule of belief it being visible to the eye that all that square their belief to the Church are one in religion whereas they that take to themselves other rules discent and jarre c. p. 28. Asw 1. Whether those who acknowledg the Church for the rule of belief be so one in Religion as that they neither dissent nor jarre I refer it to any mans judgment who hath but ordinary insight into the writers of Popish controversies I wonder whose experience it is that finds it Or what Alseeing eye it is that discerns All acknowledgers of the Churches authority to be one in Religion Have you seen
do is neither to men nor their fancies but unto God himself CHAP. X. Of the Protestant Church AFter an unconceivable distinction betwixt Protestants and Spiritists is Lutherans Zuinglians Calvinists in the first words of this Chapter you tell us That this Chapter pretends to lay open the many shapes Protestants put their Church into to make her passe for true Answ 1. The shapes you lay open are not many 'T is true you mention five but there are two distinct ones only to which al the rest may be reduced viz. lawfull Pastors and true Doctrine 2ly The shapes as you call them of Protestants or the notes of the truth of their Church as themselves propound them are not many but very few 3ly You lay not open what Protestants they are that form these several shapes that so your Reader might examine them himself and see what they say for themselves and whether you deal candidly with them in reporting their opinions Your dishonest dealing with Gods Word makes us suspect you deal no better with men Before I come particularly to the shapes I shall premise for the Readers information that there are ordinarily two only notes whereby Protestants prove their Church true viz. the pure preaching of Gods Word and the right administration of the Sacraments to which some few add as a third the use of right Eclesiastical Discipline But this man as if he had known nothing of Protestants judgment or had no mind to encounter with them in their way wholly omits the plea of right administration of the Sacraments and brings the other but in the last place spending the most of his Chapter about personal succession of Bishops thinking himself probably best able to encounter with us in this point both because of their bead-roll of Popes and Papists general conceit that there were no Protestant Pastors in the World before Luther's days which is also this mans misconceit so far as I know But I shall do him the favour to reduce his five shapes to the former of our notes supposing him to say as Stapleton Stap. princ doc l. 1. c. 22. That the preaching of the Gospel is a very clear note of the Catholique Church so it be done by lawful Ministers The question then is concerning the lawfulness of our Ministry which is asserted and confirmed according to the divers times in which it hath been questioned and contradicted particularly in the days of Luther and Queen Elizabeth of blessed memory together with the times preceding them Notwithstanding I will follow you in your method viewing the shapes and your answers to them in that order wherein you propound them SHAPE I. PRotestants are a company of Christians under the government of Bishops and Pastors that have power and authoritie from Christ and his Apostles to administer the Sacrament and preach the Word of God but such a companie is the true Church therefore Protestants are the true Church To which you answer Neither Christ nor the Apostles confer'd any power or authoritie on Protestant Bishops and Pastors they were dead and gone long before these had any being to give power and authoritie requires presence of the giver c. Rep. 1. The foundation of it is sandy it s not universally true that to give power and authority requires the presence of the giver for it may be otherwise especially in two cases 1. If the giver shall deliver some rules or directions for persons receiving power c. a person after his death by his will or testament gives power to another to be his executor A King by his Patten though himself be personally absent gives power and authority to his Commissioners who therefore acts by the Kings authority Your Popes derive not their power and authority from any but from Peter every Pope professeth he hath the keys from Peter that is by Peter's will or testament or some directions and rules of his for he is not I know always present when the Pope is ordained 2. If the prime-giver do invest some person present with him with power to give the same unto others his successors A King doth invest a Town or Justices of peace to ordain a Constable or some other officer in their circuit It s the Kings power that invests him in his office and by oath he promiseth fidelity to him yet the King is not present but as represented by his ministers Should I upon this ground infer that neither your present Pope Cardinals Priests Jesuits no nor present Church hath any of its power from Jesus Christ or his Apostles what could you say to it If you grant it you prejudice your Church for whatsoever spiritual power is not from Jesus Christ or his Apostles is usurped tyrannical if you deny it you cause an earthquake in your argument shaking yea overthrowing its very foundation that to give power and authority requires presence of the giver For Christ is not now present with your Pope c. as God was present with Moses Exod. 3. Or Christ with the Apostles Math. 28. To say they have a mediate presence will not serve your turn for you require personal presence like that Exod. 3. and Math. 28. where God and Christ did confer power immediately by themselves and not by others To apply this to our purpose by way of reply to your answer I say Protestant Bishops and Pastors have their power and authority from Christ both those ways I mentioned viz. 1. By deed and testament Thus Christ by himself and Apostles in Scripture authorize those who are qualified with gifts and abilities for the Ministry to exercise their gifts which they may do upon some occasions and in some times even without a solemn installment by Bishops and Presbiters as when God doth cast them amongst a people where the Gospel hath not before come or where Presbyterial ordination cannot be had in regard of the corruption and wickedness of such as have power to ordain or where Pastors are few and unable for the service of Christ in his Church Upon these and such like occasions that respect each one should have to the promoting of Christs Kingdom puts him so far as God qualifies him for it upon the exercise of this duty provided there be not a contempt or wilfull neglect of that tryal of these gifts which Christ hath committed to the Ministers of his Church whom he hath also intrusted with the power ordination of those who are gifted Thus it may be supposed to have been with Apollo's Acts 18.24 25 27. and you read of divers persons preaching whose ordination is not expresly mentioned thus though we should grant you that our first reformers had no ordinary exernal calling yet had they their authority from Christ being by him furnished with inward abilities which ordination is but a solemn reflection upon and an acknowledgment of You confess that Luther was a man of learning and parts pag. 47. Surius affirms of Bucer Sur comment in An. 1526.
which are dangerous meerly because we hold them 2. Impatience of labour Papists will not set themselves to read our books or if they read not to study them should I go over these parts where I live I believe I should not finde one Papist that doth seriously read our books nor can tell you truly what we hold they spend their time in other things and will not be perswaded to imploy themselves this way 3. The restraint that is laid upon them that they dare not read them Pope Pius by his Bull forbad Papists to look into the books of Calvin Bucer Bullinger and such like Heretiques as he calls them contrary to the practise of Protestants who are permitted to read Popish Books Dr. Reynolds takes notice of this injunction Reynold praelec 3. de lib. Apocr and saith Licet Pontif. Rom. prudentiam admirari qui suis interdicit ne legant habeant ve librum aliquem haeresiarcharum istorum quos appellat nempe si Calvinum Bucerum Bullingerum inspicere sinerent viderent quales Medii sint ipsorum Magisiri Hic in officinis Bibliothecis nostris cujus legendi permittuntur haeresiarchae Pontificii fortasse nimium peccamus in alteram partem Nay such is the care of these men that what we hold be not known to their people that the controversies written by their own men wherein our Doctrines are discovered and weakly confuted are not suffered to walk publikely where the Pope bears sway its observeable what Sir Edvin Sands writes Those principal Writers who have imployed themselves wholly in refuting from point to point the Protestants Doctrine and Arguments are so rare in Italy as by ordinary enquiry not to be found the controversies of Bellarmine I sought for in Venice in all places neither that nor Gregory of Valenza nor any of such quality could I ever in any such Shop in Italy set eye on but instead of them an infinite of meer invectives and declamations yea further they are not ashamed to censure some of the Holy Writers as seemingly at least consenting with us as the same Author notes Europ Specul pag. 156. The Papists saith he are very jealous of S. Pauls Epistles and think them dangerous so that some of their Jesuites of late in Italy in solemn Sermons and other of their favourers elswhere in private communication commending S. Peter for a worthy Spirit have censured S. Paul for an hot-headed person who was transported so with his pangs of zeal and eagerness beyond all compass in sundry his disputes that there was no great reckoning to be made of his assertions yea he was dangerous to read as savouring of Heresie in some places c. Certainly Papists are much afraid of books whereby the judgment might be informed lest their Disciples reading them should with that Author who was set to confute Calvin by our books be converted to the truth while they find our arguments solid and those accusations of Heresies cast on us by their Rabbi's to be nothing but slander and therefore most prudently the children of this world being wiser in their Generation then the children of light do they confine them to some kinde of books whereby a kinde of devotion may be excited in them but little of sound knowledg attained by them or rather tying them to Beads instead of books to dumb Pictures instead of the Gospel those lively representers of Jesus Christ and to railings and invectives instead of controversie When I consider these things I cannot but pity the common sort of Papists and withal admire the impudency of their Priests who while they cry up the peoples freedom of will yet flatly deny them to have any judgment 2. I desire to know who these Authors you mention are and whether they are yet unanswered I 'm sure there are many learned answers extant to the Popish books formerly written and for the late ones they are not yet grown common as they come to the knowledg of learned men I doubt not but they will receive their answers In the meane time though the meanest of that Tribe that desires to be learned I have attempted to answer your book to which I now depending on the assistance of Gods Spirit do address my self CHAP. I. Of Happiness WHen I had considered this Title and read the Chapter and compared it with others following I presently thought of those Locusts that came out of the smoak of the bottomless pit and of the shape wherein they are represented to us Apoc. 9.7 On their heads were as it were crowns of gold and they had brest-plates as it were brest-plates of iron and the sound of their wings was as the sound of charets of many horses running to battel and they had tails like unto scorpions and there were stings in their tails c. This Chapter is the crown like gold in the head of your Book one or two of your Chapters following have the faces of men the countenance of truth though not without some excrements of the Romish Whore the rest of your Book is military and hath a sound of War and the tail of it which is your Epilogue is the tail of a Scorpion and hath a sting in it wherewith to hurt the simple I shall therefore pass over this Chapter which is Christian to come to that in the others which is Popish CHAP. II. Of the Way to Happiness SEct. 2. you say God hath appointed the means to mans natural happiness to be acts of his understanding aâ—d will for by them he may seek and find out God as he is the Author and End of Nature by these cleave and unite and so enjoy him to mans supernatural happiness to be a Conformity of Faith to the Church a Conformity of Hope to our Lords Prayer and a Conformity of Charity to the Commandments Reply 1. Are not the acts of understanding and will means to supernatural happiness for by them he seeks and finds out God as he is the Author of Grace by these he cleaves and unites and so enjoys God his Saviour and Redeemer When you say Sect. 3. that by faith a man comes to the knowledg of God as he is the Author and End of Grace do not you think that faith is an act of the understanding or will But you were so big-bellyed with the Church that you travelled to be delivered of it and therefore not heeding what you have said you tell us of a Conformity of Faith to the Church 2. I confound Means of divers natures viz. those that are proximate and have an agency or activity in them as understanding and will and those that are remote and do only dispose and help those proximate and active means towards their intended end The proximate means of natural and supernatural happiness are the same only those faculties are helped as to natural happiness by the Books of Nature and the Creatures as to supernatural happiness by the Word of God contained in the Scriptures of the Old and
was a Canonical book of the Old Testament which now you affirm So that in this example you kill two Birds with one stone Ecce duo gladii I pray Sir who told you that Tobit was a part of the Old Testament 1. The Jews told you not for they and to them were committed the Oracles of God received it not but cut it off from the Canon as Hierome in his Prologue to this Book Hierom. ad Chrom Heliod in Tob. Prolog and the Annotator upon him doth also confesse 2. Nor ancient Fathers Bellarmine observes that many of the Ancients as Melito Epiphanius Hilarius Hieronimus Ruffinus to whom add Cyril of Jerusalem in their delivering the Canon of the Old Testament Cyril Catech. 4. p. 99. Stapl. princip Doctr. Christ l. 9. do clearlie follow the Hebrews Stapleton also confesseth that this and other such like books were accounted by the most ancient Christians but as doubtful and Apocriphal 3. Did the Councils affirm it to you I know Trent did but she is a Novice and of no great authoritie in this point The Council of Laodicea confirmed afterwards in a General Council omits this book when she delivers the Canon of Scripture Ans Divers later writers do refuse this book as Lyranus and as I remember Lyran. praefat ad lib. Tobit Sixtus Senensis For a conclusion of this I shall tell you that there were some adjudged Heretiques by the General Council of Vienna amongst whose errors this is the Leader as mentioned by Caranza Quod homo in vita praesenti Caranz Sum. Concil p. 434. c. That man in this present life may attain to such and so great a degree of perfection that thereby he becomes altogether impeccable I pray shew us the difference betwixt this error and your supposed truth of possibilitie of keeping the Law 3. Your Arguments now come to be considered of The 1. is Gods conditional promises to David and his Posteritie could be tearmed no better then jeers unless the Commandments were possible A. I deny your consequence For 1. God may accept of that which man can perform though he do not perform what he should You know Hezekiah's prayer occasioned by a multitude of people that had not cleansed themselves and came to eat the Passeover The good Lord pardon every one that prepareth his heart to seek the Lord God of his Fathers 2 Cron. 30.18 19.20 though he be not cleansed according to the purification of the Sanctuary and the Lord hearkened to Hezekiah Here was a defect in their obedience and yet Gods acceptation and performance of his promise to them which was the benefit of this Sacrament as Lyranus tells you God did fulfil his promise to David and his Posteritie as Solomon acknowledgeth Who hast kept with thy servant David my Faiher that thou promised'st him 1 King 8.24 thou spakest also with thy mouth and hast fulfilled it with thine hand as it is this day Yet you cannot say that David or his Posterity yeelded exact obedience to Gods Commandements for they fell into grievous sins but the main of their lives was holie and this God was pleased to accept of The Falls of the Saints do not nullifie the Covenant of God though somtimes they bring Gods Rod upon them Ps 89.28 c. I should suppose that your self hope for an accomplishment of Gods promise yet I hardlie think that you dream of yeelding exact and perfect obedience to Gods Law before you can obtain the promise 2. God doth not jeer men by exacting obedience which they cannot yeeld For 1. He requires nothing but what they owe him 2. He requires nothing but what he gave them once power to pay him 3. He requires nothing but what Jesus Christ is able to pay for them and God therefore exacts it of them that they may seek unto him on whom he hath laid help This is clearlie taught Isai 55.3.4 I will make an everlasting Covenant with you even the sure mercies of David saith God But Jesus Christ must be given or else this Covenant cannot be sure See Rom. 8.3.4 a most plain text for this purpose 2. Argument is this To what purpose is so much perswasion in books and Pulpits to live well if the Commandments be impossible Is living well any other than keeping of the Commandments It is assuredly as ridiculous as impious to term him a good liver that steals murders and commits adultery c. A. 1. Those perswasions are regulated by Gods command God commands men to live well which as you say is to keep the Commandments and Ministers in books and Pulpits perswade men thereto But to what purpose say you are these if the Commands be impossible I answer it is to much purpose As 1. To shew men what they ought to do It 's a noted Speech of that great Anti-Pelagian St. Augustin O homo in praeceptione cognosce c. O man in the precept know what thou oughtest to have You perswade many to joyn themselves to your Roman Church as the way to salvation which its impossible for many of them to do if you consider either Gods decree or their stability They should deceive if it were possible the very Elect but its impossible that 's implied Now if we ask why you perswade such I know no better reason you could render then this that you shew them what according to your judgment they ought to do 2. To beat down pride and conceit of justification by works whilst we see that there is more owing to God than we can pay This appears in the Apostles speech Rom. 7.9 I was alive without the Law once but when the commandment came sin revived and I dyed This the Law is a worker of fear and bondage and a killing letter 3. To drive them to Christ and the Grace of God through him Propterea enim mandatur saith devout Bernard Therefore God hath enjoyned as to observe his Commandments Bern. in vigil Nat. dom Ser. 2. that seeing our weakness and defects and that we cannot do what we ought we might fly to the mercy of God Thus the Law is a School-Master to lead us to Christ making us ready to hearken to his invitations to lay hold upon his promises meditate on that text Math. 11.30 If this end were not in it I know not why it should perswade those in an unregenerate estate to obey the commands for its impossible they should keep them as all except Pelagians will grant 2ly Whereas you say Is living well any other then keeping of the Commands I Answer Living well and absolute perfect obedience to Gods Commands are not convertible You say of many that they live well but confess you cannot name one man that perfectly keeps the Commandments It would be a harsh note if I should tell you that I know not one Papist in England that lives well Or if some Traveller should affirm that he met not with one man in all
in all points with themselves therefore are not Protestants The ground of your Major must needs be this Protestants hold in all points with themselves We grant and thankfully accept of your Major proposition together with its foundation and desire you would remember it when you come to tell us of our divisions 2. For your Minor 1. It s verified of their adversaries the Authors you mention as I have particularly shewed 2. There is reason to think they held at least in all main points with themselves 1. Because of the Testimony of Rainerus who saith they believe rightly concerning God and all other articles of the Creed 2. because they were men of good parts and very pious 3. Because your assertion of their dissent is only general When you shew the particulars I shall endeavour their vindication 2. You answer supposing them Protestants There was a great distance between them and the Apostles in which they could not be mentioned forasmuch as they were not begun or were quite extinct Answ 1. If you speak of them as Waldenses that is particular persons followers of Waldus I grant there was a distance betwixt them and the Apostles Thus if you consider of your present Pope it s as true that he is none of Peters successor there being a great distance between him and the Apostle Peter in which he could not be mentioned forasmuch as he was not then in being But 2. If you speak of them as to their profession of the reformed Religion not confining your speech to those particular persons but extending to all that professed the same Religion with them then there is no distance between them and the Apostles as I shall shew when I come to your fourth Shape 3. What you mean by their being quite extinct I know not sure you do not take them to be Jewish heretiques that were extinct before the Apostles and let me tell you that after their rise notwithstanding the fury of Papists which brought many miseries upon them they could never be extinct as the French Historian above mentioned shews But thus much for your first Shape SHAPE II. LUther descended from Catholiques Catholiques from the Apostles therefore Protestants had their Original from the Apostles they deriving themselves uninterruptedly from Luther To this you answer Answ Protestants derivation from Luther is frivolous and of no weight Luther wanting Episcopal authority without which all ordinations are null and frustrate by the confessions of the cheif Protestants themselves See Saravia Sutcliffe Bilson Andrewes White Mason Mountague Hall and others Rep. 1. Protestants derivation from Luther is of weight for any thing you do say against it It s most false that without Episcopal authority all ordinations are null and frustrate For 1. Ordination it self is not of absolute necessity for the constitution of a Pastor In some cases a man may preach the Word without it So did Origen whose practise was justified by divers Bishops Cameron fully asserts this Euseb Eccl. Hist l. 6. c. 20. Cam. Myroth in Eph. 4.11 that private men without formal ordination may teach and feed others with the Word of God 2. Supposing ordination to be of absolute necessity yet that it must be done by Episcopal authority as distinct from Presbyterial is not absolutely necessary so as that it should be null and frustrate without it nor are there any Protestants that I know of that affirms this with you not those who are named by you Sutcliffe one of them speaking of our first reformers hath these words Neither is it material that the first Preachers of the Gospel in these Countries were not Bishops Sutc. review of Kell Survey c. 1. p. 5. and so called as it was in England for suppose no Bishop would have renounced the heresies of Popery nor have taught sincerely should not inferior Ministers teach truth and Ordain other Teachers after them Furthermore they wanted nothing of true Bishops but the Name and Title Finally the right and imposition of hands by such as are called Bishops is not so necessary but that in a defection of Bishops of a Nation and in case of other extream necessity Ministers may lawfully be ordained by other Ministers And he gives divers reasons for it The rest of them are of the same judgment to whom we may add Dr. Prideaux and Dr. Field who shews that not only Protestants Prid. falac controv Theol. loc 4. sec 3. q. 2. Field of the Ch. book 3. c. 39. but Papists in former times were of opinion that in some cases and at some times Presbiters may give Orders and that their ordinations are of force and he further shews that your Suffragens who are but Presbiters do give Orders All judicious Protestants have honourable thoughts of the reformed Churches beyond Seas and of their Ministry though they want Episcopal ordination See a Book of Master Baxter But you bring us in objecting Luther received Episcopal power immediatly from God To which you answer Answ Such a power being extraordinary is always accompanied with that of Miracles as appeared in Moses Exod. 3. And the Apostles Act. 2 14. Luther never wrought Miracle Rep. For any thing I see this might have made another Shape for its independent on this you lead us as the Devil our Saviour into the Wildernesse to be tempted but as he evaded the Devils so we shall do your temptations We say then 1. A power received immediately from God is not always accompanied with that of Miracles The Prophets were caled immediately by God so was John the Baptist and probably Phillip the Deacon Act. 8.14 and the men of Cyprus and Cyrene Act. 11 Yet all of these were not invested with power of Miracles It was so with our Reformers they did not work Miracles nor as you say did pretend to that gift Yet had they sufficient testimonies of their calling as their true Evangelical Doctrine seconded with the holiness of their lives and the wonderfull success of their Preaching These did evidence their divine calling You object Luther's drawing so many after him maugre the Pope Emperor and other Potentates shews only a strange itching in men after novelties and pronenesse to libertinage Arius in a shorter space led away far more Answ 1. I speak not of his successe only or by it self but as accompanied with truth of Doctrine and an holy life and this doth evidence a lawfully called Pastor Thus it was not with Arius or any other heretiques who have been erroneous in their Doctrine and profane in their lives or else successes or if they have had successe they have but been short lived with it none of which can be affirmed of Luther or his adherents 2. I deny that Arius was more succesfull than Luther there is a great disproportion betwixt them herein For 1. Arius had not that opposition that Luther had Arius's opposers were no inquisitors nor cruel Emperors nor cursing Popes nor cut-throat Jesuites but a milde Emperour and some
by faith without the deeds of the Law They must therefore be reconciled which they may by saying that faith only doth properly justifie us before God and Works do justifie our faith to be a true faith for as much as true faith is productive of good works for we abhor those mens conceit who imagine that faith may suffice a man though he live ill and have no good works Or 2. By saying that good works do evidence our justification Aquinas confesseth that works in c. 3. ad Gal. are not the cause that any man is just before God but they are rather manifestations of Righteousnesse and Justification Certainly Abraham was justified in the sight of God before he offered up his son Isaac which is the foundation of Saint James's speech Papists are so much convinced of this that to evade Protestant Doctrine at least seemingly they invent a distinction of a first and second justification from that they exclude all works and attribute it only to faith and the other is not properly personal justification 8. Inst Prayer to Saints The Angel that delivered from all evils blessed the Children Gen. 48. Answ 1. Here is no mention of Saints much lesse of prayer to them not so much as an implicite hint of such a thing for I suppose Jacob was not of the mind of the Grecian Daemon worshippers who said it mattered not whether they called the souls of the defunct angells or gods 2. By Angel is meant Jesus Christ the Angell of the Covenant Mal. 3.1 who is true God and he who delivered Jacob out of all his evils Thus both Jewish and Christian Expositors understand it 3. I think you mistooâ— this for the latter part of the verse which Papists urge to prove invocation of Saints But seeing you doe not urge it I shall not at present answer it 9. Inst Prayer for the dead It is an holy and wholsome cogitation to pray for the dead 2 Maccab 12. A. 1. This book is not Apostolicall nor part of the Canon of Scripture the Hebrews keepers of the book of the Old Testament received it not as is generally confest and though some fathers commend this and other books of this nature to be read yet they commended them onely as profitable Treatises not as Canonicall Scriptures and therefore advise men to reade them with discretion and prudence Christ though he gives testimony to the Prophets and Psalms he gives none to these or in speciall to this besides there are divers things in this render it suspected 1. The Author of this book supposed to be Josephus professeth it to be onely an abridgement of Jason of Cyrene c. 2.23 and the Holy Ghost is not used to Epitomize profane Histories 2. He makes an excuse for himself and such a one as the holy Writers never used nor becomes a Divine History c. 15. 38. Answ 2. The Text you urge may be divers wayes oppugned 1. The words are not rightly translated by you the Greek is thus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 A holy and pious cogitation therefore he made expiation or satisfaction by sacrifice for the dead to free them from sin the words are not to be read without a middle distinction Vatablus who includes these words Piam et sanctam cogitationem in a parenthesis refers them neither to prayer nor sacrifice but to the resurrection of the dead saying it s an holy and pious thought to think that the bodies of them who have deserved well of their Country should rise again and not perish for ever 2. Supposing Sacrificing or Prayer seeing you will have it so for the dead were lawfull yet as to these persons it cannot be allowed For first they were Idolaters slain for their idolatry verse 40. Dying for any thing appears to the contrary in a mortall sin 2. They were not in Purgatory the onely place from whence Prayers bring souls for at this time Purgatory had not so much as an imaginary existence 3. Supposing Prayer for the dead and holy and wholesome cogitation and might be proved so from this place yet how can we be said to maintain a Doctrine clean contrary and opposite to that which the Apostles in plain and formall tearms expressed Though here be expressed the opinion of Judas or Jason of Cyrene yet neither Judas nor Jason were the Apostles of Christ nor yet any of the Prophets of God the last of whom was Malachi It is evident that you want spirituall proofs for your charitable devotion else you would not have urged against us those books you know we account Apocriphal and not bring one syllable of Scripture you must first prove unto us the Divine authority of the books of Maccabees and then prove our contrarietie to Scriptures in dissenting from them till then you beg the question 10. Inst Extream unction Is any body sick amongst you let him bring in the Priests of the Church and pray over him anoynting him with oyl in the name of our Lord. Jam. 5. Answ 1. Here are not the plain and formal tearms of extream unction nor do I think that you read them in any ancient Author the word Extream shews your extram abuse of this ordinance as Lorichius otherwise as much for this supposed Sacrament as any o-any other clearly demonstrates in these words Abusus vocbuli est quod dicitur extrema unctio c. It s an abuse of the word to call it extream unction For it s not a Sacrament of dying men but of those who are sick not relateing to their burial but conducing to their recovery Whence it was that in the primitive Church many when they were anointed did recover health And even at this day many wâ—uld be healed if this Sacrament were rightly used I observe that these Popish Authors who pretend to follow antiquity do avoid this tearm Extream calling this supposed Sacrament either sacramentum unctionis aegrotorum as Lorichius or simply Cass consult Art 22. p. 985. unctio infirmorum as Cassander who also shews that its of use for the sick in order to their recovery of bodily health 2. This text of the Apostle proves not your extream unction It speaks of that miraculous anointing which Saint Mark mentions Mark 6.13 and which Bellarmine saith was a sign used in miraculous healing of the diseased your Rhemists imply that it had a miraculous medicinal vertue to heal diseases which you will hardly say of your extream oyl Cajetan expresly denies that this text of James Cajet in cap. 5. Jac. proves extream unction and proves it by divers reasons 1. Saint James saith not if any man be sick unto death but absolutely if any man be sick 2. The proper effect of Saint James unction is recovery of health If he speaks of remission of sins onely conditionally whereas extream unction is not given but at the point of death and directly tends as its form stands to the remission of sins besides Saint James requires that many Elders be called to one sick person
and every thing in it and consequently that the creature doth fully represent the divine Essence and yet the Scripture tells us that none can see God and live 2. It s untrue that in seeing the divine Essence you see all its effects Aquin. 1. part 7.12 Art 8. per tot cajet ibid. Aquinas demonstrates the contrary by the example of the Angels who see the divine Essence yet are ignorant of future contingencies and the thoughts of the hearts and he further shewes that it s not necessary that he that sees a glass should see all things in the glass unless he perfectly comprehend the glass in his sight Now there is no creature that doth perfectly comprehend God Cyril excellently sets this forth of the Angels speaking of God Cyril Hieros Catech. 7. p. 169. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. Whose face the Angels do perpetually see in heaven but they see every one according to the measure of his own degree but the sublime splendor of the fatherly vision its lawfull onely for the Son and the Holy Ghost to behold Doe you think that the Saints see in God the thoughts of mens hearts yet many prayers are no more but the inward groans of the heart if you say they doe then according to Aquinas they arrogate that which is proper to God if not then they see not all the efects in God and you have not given us any distinction of effects visible or not visible 3. Object You say it will be opposed If Saints and Angels have not mens prayers before God proposeth them he knoweth them beforehand whence may be inferd that their intercession is needless Answ 1. Gods foresight of mens prayers maks not the intercession of Saints and Angels any way unprofitable and fruitless inasmuch as the effect intended thereby is not to better Gods understanding but to obtain from his blessed Will mercy and compassion c. Reply 1. The Objection doth not refer to Gods foresight meerly which may be from all eternitie He foreseeing all things before they were but to Gods actuall receiving of them from us and so proposing them to the Saints Now I assert that this doth make the intercession of Saints and Angels unprofitable yea no intercession For first according to Papists the reason why we look for an Intercessor is this we dare not come to God immediately hence is that Court-like instance and frequently urged of a subject who not daring to come into the presence of the King immediately presents his Petitions to some of his Courtiers and by him to the King But here forgetting your instance you first present your Petitions to the King making him your Letter carrier to his Courtiers and this say you for this end that his Courtiers may move his goodness which how rationall it is let the simplest of your Synagogue judge 2. According to your Rhemists the property of a Mediator or Intercessor is to offer up our Prayers to God Now he that offers up any thing to another doth not immediately receive his offering from him to whom he offers but from him for whom he offers To say Saints receive Prayers from God that they may offer them to God is very harsh and unscripturall language Reply 2. If our Prayers go immediately to God and then to Saints and they immediately obtain from Gods blessed Will mercy and compassion from us What room hath Christ for his intercession or how are Saints Mediatores ad Mediatorem It s difficult to set up Saints as Intercessors and not to nullifie the intercession of Christ Jesus But you urge Princes have often notice of subjects imprisonment and condemnation yet seldom give reprives of inlargements but at the intreaty of some friend or favorite Reply 1 Princes do not usually receive and deliver Petitions directed to their Favourites that thereby their favourites may move them to compassion 2. Princes often give reprieves or inlargements at the entreaty of the imprisoned or condemned 3. The Apostle tells us clearly who is that favourite that receiving our Petitions doth procure reprieves or enlargements for guiltie sinners viz. Jesus Christ the righteous 1 John 2.1 2. You answer Men are wished yea warranted to pray for one another 1 Tim. 2. notwithstanding God hath the foresight of their wants and necessities Reply 1. For shame do not thus fight with your own shadow what Protestant doubts of Gods foresight of Prayers or who asserts that Prayers are for the bettering of Gods understanding 2. When men pray one for another they have not the sight of your supercelestiall Vtopian looking-glass but being by their friends acquainted with their wants they are intreated to joyn with them in seeking Gods mercy through Jesus Christ 3. You answer Davids adulterie and guilt of blood were in the sight of God unpardoned till after a low humiliation and an hearty acknowledgement of his fault 1 King 12. Reply This being nothing to purpose shall pass unanswered till you can make it appear more materiall 5. Objection THe fifth Objection is The Roman Church entertaineth divisions and contrariety in Religion The Dominicans maintaining a Physicall predetermination the Jesuits a Morall those that the Virgin Mary was conceived in Originall sin these that she was prevented by Grace and conceived in the same And if this be not enough to infer contrarietie in Religion several Councells have contradicted each other Answ 1. Not every difference but a difference in point of Faith makes division and contrariety in Religion The Dominicans and Jesuits onely quarrell about Opinions it being not matter of belief that Gods Predestination is Physicall or Morall or that the blessed Virgin was conceived in Originall sin or grace These are meer School nicities and not at all destructive to that Vnity which Catholicks so much reverence in Religion Reply 1. You deal deceitfully with your followers and us in making your many divisions to seem few and your great ones small Are the differences in the Roman Church only two viz. about Predetermination and the Virgin Mary Whosoever reads Azorius's Moralls but especially Bellarmines Controversies shall find scarce one point of divinity wherein there is not difference amongst Papists Some have numbered 300. different Opinions of Papists out of Bellarmines Controversies and those about Points controverted between them and us Now if the differences between them and us be about Points of Faith as it seems they are else we could not be accounted Heretical and not meer Opinions their is no question but theirs are of the same nature there being no Opinion of the Church but hath some one or more Papists joyning with us in opposing it 2. You might have done well to have informed us what are Points of Faith and what Opinions for these Points you mention seem to be points of Faith For first those things that constitute a point of Faith with you agree to them As first its authority from the Word of God which you branch into Scriptrre and