And in the first place I think it ought to be taken away because it is unlawfull to have a set Form of Prayer impos'd upon the Church F. P. Either you or I Sir are strangely mistaken in this point for I must own that my Judgment always hath been that it is not onely lawfull to have a set Form of Prayer in the Church but what is more that no Church can well be without one E. D. Pray how so Sir For if I be not greatly mistaken you speak now against the General sense of the French Protestants for I never heard that they had any set Forms of Prayer F. P. I perceive Sir you have been ill inform'd concerning these matters for the truth is we French Protestants have a common-prayer-Common-prayer-book which was compos'd by Calvin himself and therein we agree with the concurring practise of the Universal Church for I never read or heard of any Church in the World but had a set Form of Prayer so that for you to oppose it is no less than to deny the Authority Testimony and Practise of all the Saints of the Old and New Testaments both Prophets and Apostles and the express Command of our Saviour himself and in a word Sir you condemn the general sense and practise of Christianity and the Holy Catholick Church E. D. I hear what you say Sir and expect you should prove it F. P. Nay more than this you contradict the Example of our great Lord and Master the Founder of our Religion and the Author and Finisher of our Faith E. D. This is a high Charge indeed but pray be pleas'd to make it out F. P. That I will Sir First I say that you contradict the Authority and Practice of the Prophets in the Old Testament forasmuch as it is evident that they made use of set Forms of Prayer and had a particular Command so to doe to be convinc'd of this be pleas'd to reade the 26th Chapter of Deuteronomy from Verse 13. to 16. and the 14th Chapter of Hosea beginning at the second Verse Take with you words and turn unto the Lord and say unto him c. and the 2d of Joel Verse 17. Let the Priests the Ministers of the Lord weep between the Porch and the Altar and let them say Spare thy people O Lord c. Secondly You contradict the Command of our Lord and Saviour and the Practice of the holy Apostles which I prove from the 11th Chapter of St. Luke the 1st and 2d Verses where we reade that one of our Saviour's Disciples asked him in the Name of all his Companions to teach them to pray as John had taught his Disciples whereupon our Saviour addressing himself to all his Disciples said When ye pray say Our Father c. From whence I infer these two things First That the Apostles had a set Form of Prayer prescrib'd them by Christ himself for it is impossible to order any Form in more plain and express terms than our Saviour makes use of in recommending this Prayer to his Disciples Secondly I conclude from hence that the Disciples made use of this Form which will not be question'd if we consider the great desire they shewed to obtain this Form of Prayer from our Saviour and the readiness wherewith they always obeyed the Commands he laid upon them So that this cannot but be a sufficient proof to any thinking Man that when they prayed they made use of this Form or Prescription their blessed Lord and Master had at their request given them with this express Command When you pray say Our Father c. 3. You oppose the General Practice of Christendom and of the Holy Catholick Church because neither your self nor any Man else can give an instance of any Church in the World from the Apostles times to these our days but what had a set Form of Prayers for though all have not used the same yet there is no Church but has used some Form or other 4. You condemn the Example and Practice of our dear Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ himself for it is evident that he himself made use of a Form of Prayer Matt. 26. v. 44. E. D. I will not undertake now to return you a particular Answer to what you have here alledged but shall onely say that Praying by a Form has by experience been found a hindrance and obstacle to true fervent Prayer in the Spirit and to deal plainly with you this seems to be one great reason why the Ministers of the Church of England are so dull and ignorant in this point and so little acquainted with spiritual Prayer F. P. I am not a little surpriz'd at this your Answer for having but just now proved to you that the Prophets and Apostles the Holy Catholick Church and Christ himself made use of Forms of Prayer you after all this come and tell me that Praying by Forms is a hindrance to Praying by the Spirit which is as much as to say that neither the Prophets Apostles the Catholick Church nor Christ himself prayed by the Spirit because they made use of a set Form which is a near step to Blasphemy E. D. I did not design to say so much neither though I must confess that Praying by a set Form seems to me for I find it so by experience to be a great Obstacle to true spiritual Prayer F. P. Though it may seem so to you yet your Charity should lead you rather to question your own Judgment than to pass so rash a Censure upon the Saints of the Old and New Testament yea upon Christ himself besides you ought to be very wary of exposing your self to the derision of all men by supposing your self wiser than all the Prophets and Apostles than the whole Christian Church and Christ himself since it is most certain that they made use of Forms and not onely so but our Saviour himself prescribed a Form of Prayer to his Disciples commanding them when they prayed to use the same which he would never have done had it indeed been so great a hindrance to servent Prayer by the Spirit as you pretend E. D. If it be not a hindrance to others I am sure 't is so to me F. P. I hope I shall understand you better if you please to explain to me what you mean by praying by the Spirit E. D. I suppose no true Christian can be ignorant of what Praying by the Spirit is and therefore I can't see any necessity there is of explaining a thing so obvious to the understanding of all F. P. Since you seem unwilling to give me your meaning I am very free to give you mine to pray by the Spirit is as I take it to pray by the help and assistance of the Holy Ghost so as to have our hearts and minds deeply affected with the sense of our wants and all our Faculties and Affections inflamed with the Love of God and stedfast Faith in his Promises E. D. I perceive we do not
life yet I have often had an opportunity of hearing your Ministers pray but forasmuch as my temper doth not incline me and my Religion much less to pass any offensive Reflexion upon any sort of People therefore I humbly crave leave to be excus'd from giving you my opinion of them E. D. Though I cannot but approve of your Modesty in this regard yet I should be glad to have you speak out and therefore I desire you to tell me freely from your heart what you think of them and whether they do not pray very well F. P. Because you urge me I shall in compliance with your desires tell you and that with all the truth and sincerity imaginable that I am so far from liking their unpremeditated extemporary Prayers that I altogether disapprove them and above all am much offended at their way of praying E. D. Sure you don't speak from your heart now as I desired you would for if you did you could not say so since it is certain that they pray incomparably better than any of your Church-men one of their unpremeditated Prayers being far beyond all the Prayers that are in your Common-prayer-book F. P. Good Sir I must entreat you for once to lay aside all your Prejudices and to make use of your Reason so far as to consider whether it be not morally impossible that men who never were brought up in an University and scarcely ever had the full instruction of a Grammar-school which may be said of the most of your Ministers should without any premeditation pray incomparably better than our Church-men who have had the best means and opportunities in the World to improve their parts and abilities And whether an extemporary Prayer whined out I beg your pardon if that word offend you by an illiterate man should infinitely surpass all the Prayers of the Common-prayer-book which have been compiled by some of the wisest and most Judicious Divines that ever England could boast of E. D. How strangely you talk now as if it were impossible for any man to pray well that hath not been bred at the Universities F. P. You mistake me Sir this was none of my assertion I onely said it was morally impossible that illetrate men should pray incomparably better than those that have been brought up at the Universities whose whole business and employment it is to understand the Scripture and to be conversant in those studies that most conduce to true Godliness which surely are the best means to teach them to pray also E. D. But the Apostles you know were simple illiterate men and yet they could pray infinitely better than all the Rabbies and all the great Doctors of the Synagogue F. P. I grant you that but withall desire you would consider that though the Apostles were illiterate men yet were they extraordinary men call'd and sent by God in an extraordinary manner to bring about an extraordinary work yea a Work greater than that of the Creation it self they were by their Ministry to change and renew the face of the whole World to pluck the false Gods from their Temples to beat down their Altars to silence their Oracles to abolish their Worship to root out their Customs to overcome their Prejudices and to oppose and defeat a Religion of as long standing as the World it self a Religion that was in full possession of the Spirits of all men and which by consequence could engage for her defence whatsoever was authoritative great or powerfull amongst all Nations They were to be the Planters of a new Religion in the World to brave and challenge all the power of Princes to stand the shock of the Sophisms of Philosophers and the Politicks of States-men to stem the violent torrent of the Mobile and to hold out against the Persecutions of all the wicked Now that they might be qualified and capacitated for this strange and wonderfull undertaking God was pleased to indow them with many miraculous Gifts and Powers as of Prophecying speaking all sorts of Languages working of Miracles c. in order to which the Holy Ghost who is the true and alone Spirit of Prayer came down upon them in a visible and miraculous manner Which things being so for you to fetch an Argument from the Example of the Apostles either in respect of their Person Mission or extraordinary and miraculous Gifts and apply the same to your Ministers is every-whit as improper as if you should go about to prove that you or I can stop the Sun in his Course because Joshua did so E. D. I never intended by producing the Example of the Apostles to prove our Ministers equal to them as to their extraordinary gifts and graces neither do I suppose will you dare to compare the Coiners of your Liturgy or Common-prayer with those holy Men the Apostles of our Lord and Saviour F. P. I never did I onely said that the Compilers of our Liturgy were some of the most Pious and Learned men that ever England did afford E. D. They were no better than bigoted Papists F. P. How can that be when it is known that they suffered Perscution nay Martyrdom it self in the defence of the Protestant Religion and sealed and ratified the Common-prayer they had composed with their Bloud E. D. But pray Sir who gave them the power to compose the common-prayer-Common-prayer-book F. P. They had their Power and Authority from God and the King E. D. I shall be glad to hear you prove it F. P. That I will Sir for it is no such difficult matter as you may suppose I say therefore first that they had their power from God for they being Bishops and Governours of the Church had an unquestionable Power and Commission by virtue of their Charge and Office to redress and reform whatsoever was amiss in the Divine Service and forasmuch as in some foregoing Ages the Prayers of the Church had been corrupted and adulterated by inserting doubtfull Stories and Legends with a superfluous multiplicity of Responsals Prayers to the Blessed Virgin and other Saints Prayers for the Dead vain Repetitions Commemorations and Synodals c. they very wisely and prudently cast away all that was Popish and Superslitious retaining onely what was sound ancient and edifying and added some Prayers that were truly Apostolical and Primitive And besides they had a special Order and Command from King Edward VI. authorizing them so to E. D. I find all your Discourse comes to this that the Compilers of your Common-prayer-book onely chop'd and chang'd the Romish Liturgy and out of it with some Additions of their own patch'd up the Liturgy which is now used by the Church of England and which you do so much admire Now you know the Popish Liturgy is no other than their mass-Mass-book which I think might to much better purpose have been quite laid aside than reform'd and patch'd up again F. P. I am not of your opinion and the Reasons that hinder me are these First Those Holy Men
we are speaking of had no Power or Authority committed to them to plant or institute a new Religion but onely to reform the Abuses that were crept into the Church and the Corruptions of the publick Worship of God which is the chiefest part of the Christian Religion now in this case it is evident that it was none of their duty or office to take away the whole publick Service or Liturgy which indeed at that time was very corrupt though not to that degree but that some good was still found amongst it but onely to change what was amiss to supply the defects of it and cast away whatsoever was corrupt or superfluous Secondly It was great wisedom in them to observe the mean between two extreams by shunning on the one hand a Spirit of bitterness and hatred against the Party they reformed from and on the other hand avoiding a sinfull compliance with the corruptions of those who were so unwilling to part with their Idolatry and Superstition And farther to illustrate my Argument I must tell you that the Reformers of our Church acted according to this commendable Maxim of Christian Charity and Moderation viz. That in love and condescention to the Church of Rome we ought not to reject any thing used by them but what is found contrary to the Word of God whereas the Reformers of your Party proceed according to this Rule That in hatred and detestation of Popery we ought not to admit the least thing the Papists make use of in their Divine Service and onely for this reason because they use it Now I would fain know of you which of these two you take to be the most Christian and Charitable method and whether the Principle our Reformers went by be not preferable to that of your Party The Reason is evident beyond dispute because our Reformers by retaining what was good and of primitive Purity in the publick Service of the Romanists and rejecting onely what was manifestly corrupt and superstitious they left a door open for them and as it were friendly invited them to leave their Adulterous Church and to enter into our Communion E. D. But pray tell me what great or good effect this Condescension did ever yet produce for I never understood that this their moderate and designing way of Reforming the Church has been a means to persuade the Papists to leave their Idolatry and Superstitions and to become Converts to their Church F. P. If I should grant you that the number of Popish Converts to our Church is not very considerable will it follow from thence that the means used for so good and charitable an End were undue or unlawfull For though God hitherto hath not been pleased to bless these good means with the greatest success that might be wish'd for yet we know not how soon he may especially considering that we had never more reason to expect the total downfall of Popery which according to outward appearance can no way so probably be brought about as by the Papists embracing the Protestant Religion Let us therefore take heed of deriding as you seem to do those lawfull moderate and Christian-like methods the Church of England hath made use to facilitate the Papists Conversion E. D. I find then you take your Common-prayer to be a lawfull moderate and Christian-like method or means to facilitate the Conversion of the Papists F. P. I do so and I question not but in due time it will prove very effectual that way to the stopping of the mouths of all gain-sayers E. D. Ay you may look for it long enough I suppose and if by great change it should ever prove to be an effectual means I dare say for all that it will never be a lawfull one for to speak freely and without mincing the matter I am of opinion that though it may be lawfull to use some Form of Prayer yet it is altogether unlawfull to use that Form which is now in vogue amongst you F. P. Then I find you are not altogether irreconcilable to the Lawfulness of Praying by Forms but you are not satisfied with the Forms we use I shall be glad to hear the Grounds of your dissatisfaction as hoping by this means to have an opportunity offer'd me to enlarge my self more in the Praise of our Common-prayer than hitherto I have had occasion to do E. D. I know the humour of French-men is to be complaisant and complimental and so very probably you design in compliment to the Church of England to fall down to the Common-prayer the great Idol of the English Clergy as you have already express'd your great Respects for their dull and prophane Priests F. P. I beg of you Sir let us discourse without Prejudice or Passion and be so kind as to tell me calmly and friendly what Objections you have against our Common-prayer-book in particular E. D. Before I give you the Particular Objections I have against the Common-prayer-book I shall premise this General Observation That your Common-prayer is so bad that there is nothing good in it no nor any thing that is so much as tolerable F. P. How strangely you and I differ in Opinion As for my part I really think there is nothing in it but what is very good E. D. If you can prove that as I desire you would Eris mihi magnus Apollo for indeed you will do more than all your Clergy-men that ever I discours'd with and more than all the Books that treat of this Subject have been able to do F. P. If the case be so indeed I should be loath to undertake the task For if none of our Clergy that you have discours'd with nor any of those excellent Books written in the Defence of our Liturgy have been able to convince you of the goodness and usefulness thereof it would be folly for me to attempt it for I am very sensible that my Parts and Abilities are far below any one of our Clergy that you have had to deal with and to speak the truth 't is from them and their Writings I have acquired the best part of that little learning and insight into these things that I have E. D. I hope you are as modest a Man as your discourse would import besides being a French Protestant you as such can have neither publick nor private Reason to bear any ill-will to our Party wherefore I look upon you as an unbiass'd Person without Prejudice or Partiality and consequently fit to be discours'd with about the matter in question between us And indeed all this makes me the more desirous to hear the Arguments you can produce for proving your Assertion That there is nothing in the Common-prayer-book but what is very good F. P. I thought all this while that you intended to propound your Objections against the Common-prayer and that my onely business would have been to Answer them E. D. I suppose we may do both these things at once for if you please to tell me