when he wrote The other is the continuall contestation of the Churches succeeding To this effect writeth S. Augustine and so be all latter Churches barred from authoritie to make any writings canonicall scripture specially those that haue of olde bene doubted of They may testifie what the olde Churches before them haue done as we nowe doe Hereunto they saide againe that it was blasphemie after those Councils to call those bookes Apocrypha or to doubt of the authoritie of them It is rather most horrible blasphemie said we to make humane writings equall with the Canonicall scriptures as of late your Tridentine Councill hath done and as your Pope being but one man hath made his Decretal epistles then with S. Hierome Eusebius and other ancient godly fathers to call those bookes Apocrypha which they do so call And we said that notwithstanding those Councils Caietanus their Popes Cardinall thought it no blasphemie who in the ende of his expositions vpon the olde testament in very plaine wordes maketh the same difference of the bookes of the scriptures doeth not onely alowe the iudgement of Hierome but addeth further that all writitings yea of bishops of Rome them selues of whome he nameth some must be brought to S. Hieroms rule They vtterly reiected Cardinall Caietanus because as they said he was but one man against all the Church We said you of your side will not be charged with the wordes of others though they be the Popes Cardinals and yet you doe thinke it reason that we should be charged with euery worde that hath slipped from Luther Nay you charge him and vs by him with that which you can neuer proue that he did write or speake Hart said further that Caietanus was a good scholemā and traueled in that course with commendation but when hee began to become an expositor of the scriptures said he then he lost his grace and credit We answered if they thought it reason to charge vs with all the sayings of Luther or of any other we might by good and great reason charge them with the sayings of so great learned a Cardinall of Rome as Caietanus was Last of all wee came to the place of S. Augustine in his second booke De doctrina Christiana Which Campion and his fellowes gladly receiued because they said it made for them and not for vs. For saide they S. Augustine rehearseth those bookes for Canonicall scriptures which you call Apocrypha To this wee answered that they shoulde rather charge Saint Hierome and Eusebius and other auncient fathers who doe call them Apocrypha And S. Augustine in that place rehearsing the order of the bookes of scriptures though said we he differ somwhat from Eusebius and S. Hierome in shewe of wordes yet hee doeth in deede agree with them For where they deuide the bookes of the scriptures into three sorts that is Canonicall Apocrypha and feigned or vntrue Augustine deuideth them into Canonicall and Apocrypha onely and then he deuideth the Canonicall bookes into two sortes that is those that be certainely true which we with S. Hierome and Eusebius do call properly Canonicall and those that haue bene doubted of which Eusebius and S. Hierome do call Apocrypha And S. Augustine nameth those that be vtterly vntrue Apocrypha which Eusebius calleth doubtfull feigned and forged And this may be gathered out of Augustine him selfe in diuers places whereof we haue noted some And albeit Augustine calleth those bookes Canonicall yet he giueth not the like authoritie to them as namely to the Maccabees and to the other of that sort as he doeth to those that be Christes the Lords witnesses as he nameth them which be these that are named properly Canonicall Here would they not admit in any wise that the worde Canonicall was aequiuocum or of diuers significations in diuers places but that wheresoeuer that worde was founde it brought all bookes so called vnder one kinde Much time was spent here about and the matter was much argued on Master Campion and his fellowes part At the last Master Campion was desired by vs to reade the chapter in that Canon law beginning In Canonicis which Gratian takes out of this place of Augustine and first that hee would reade the rubrick which he seemed both to do And Pound one of his companions sitting by who with his importunitie impertinent speaches had often interrupted the course of the conference saide Father Campion let them reade their places them selues Yet at the length Master Campion read it and it is thus Inter Canonicas scripturas Decretales Epistolae connumerantur which after much desiring he englished also The decretall Epistles are numbred together among the Canonicall Scriptures Whereupon one of vs saide you charge vs with blasphemie for naming those bookes Apocrypha which Saint Hierome Eusebius and other ancient holy fathers doe so name but here may you see most horrible blasphemie in deede in the Canonical lawe of your Pope which matcheth his Decretall Epistles that is meere fables with the Maiestie of the Canonicall Scriptures as he doeth in this distinction and sundry other places whereby you may see to what point this boldnesse of making mens writings Canonicall Scriptures is come Then saide we to M. Campion do you hold that Popes decrees for Canonical scriptures as you do the bookes of Moyses and the Prophets He answered no and graunted then that the worde Canonicall was aequinocum or of diuers significations which before they all did so constantly denie Whereupon we sayde that we had some good hope of Master Campion for that he blushed And we sayde further that Cardinall Caietanus in the place before alleadged sayeth expressely that S. Augustine placed those books in the Canon of maners but not in the Canon of doctrine whereby he plainely declareth that the word Canonicall is aequiuocum After this he was desired to reade the text of that Chapter and there he founde and could not denie but that the place of Augustine was vntruely reported by Gratian and by manifest corruption drawē altogether from the meaning of Augustine For where S. Augustine saith that those Scriptures are to be taken for Canonicall which the most or greatest part of Christian Churches so take among the which those Churches be which deserued to haue Apostolique Seas and to receiue Epistles from the Apostles these wordes of S. Augustine are chaunged and in the place of the Apostolique Seas is put the Apostolique Sea meaning the Church of Rome and those Churches which deserued to receaue Epistles from the said Church of Rome which is cleane contrary to S. Augustines wordes and meaning Both often before and here specially Master Campion and his fellowes seemed to be desirous to dispute vpon some pointes of religion rather then to continue in this examination of his booke which we said we woulde not at afternoone refuse but the forenoone qd we is so farre spēt that we must at this time make
and whether he knewe them to be true He answered that he wrote his booke as he traueiled and that he coulde not we knewe cary a librarie about with him and therefore he was forced to giue credite to his notes We said it was more credible that he brought the saide booke ouer with him readie framed by the common and long conference of him selfe and his fellowe Iesuites at conuenient opportunitie suddenly to be published rather then that he did write it in his trauels hauing so much besides to do being destitute of his librarie as he said which is the vsual maner as we said of you all hūting thereby for popular praise of speedie writing But when howsoeuer you did write your booke said we you haue vsed ouermuch boldnes so cōfidently to publish in print these slaūderous reportes of such men as you haue named being not able to make any proofe of that wherof you accuse them And vpon these such good grounds of yours you doe most vnreasonably and vntruly charge vs all as those that haue rased mangled and spoyled the body of the holy Bible The third testimonie or proofe alleaged against vs by Master Campion in his booke is taken out of the Centuries written by Illiricus and others which booke being giuen into his handes and the like demaunde made as before he would neither reade nor once open the booke neither yet made he any answere thereto knowing that he could make no exception to the print as he did before to Luthers bookes seeing that booke was neuer printed but once And besides where they as Historiographers had only set down the iudgements of S. Hierome Eusebius Epiphanius and of other ancient fathers concerning this Epistle of Saint Iames of Tobias the bookes of Macchabees c he knewe that he could not thereby proue his assertion that they suddenly cut away so many goodly partes of the holy Bible much lesse that we had so done as he doeth in his booke charge vs. For which causes chiefly he would not as much as once open those bookes and for the same cause he woulde not looke vpon Kemnisius whome and vs by him he had likewise falsely charged When Master Campion could not shew these words out of any of those books by him alleaged nor any good matter to proue thē nor vs suddenly to haue rased mangled and spoyled the holy Scriptures as he chargeth vs of desperation in our cause to haue done then did we shewe him that we had not nowe suddenly as he vntruely reported cut off any part or line of the body of the holy Scriptures but made onely a difference betweene those bookes of the Scriptures that be commonly called Canonicall and of all men be taken for vndoubtedly true from those that haue bene long ago suspected of many and are called Apocrypha according as was before set downe by the ancient Doctors of the Church aboue a thousand yeres since more And for the proofe hereof we alleaged the testimonie of Saint Hierome In Catalogo Scriptorum ecclesiasticorum where he thus writes of the Epistle of Saint Iames named by Master Campion The Epistle of Saint Iames is sayd to be published by some other man vnder his name And of the second Epistle of Saint Peter he saith in the same booke that it is denied of many to be his by reason of the difference of the stile To this Master Campion answered that Hierome spake not of his owne iudgement but reported what others sayde of them We answered if Saint Hierome so reported of other mens sayings of those Epistles and did not him selfe gainesay it that it was a manifest token that he did not greatly mislike their sayings And seeing in S. Hieromes time and before those Epistles were doubted of you doe vs great wrong sayd we to charge vs that we haue suddenly cut them off from the body of the Bible who in deede notwithstanding the former doubtes of them gladly receaue and allowe them We alleaged againe S. Hierome In Prologo Galeato et Epistola ad Paulinum where hee sheweth his owne iudgement what bookes of the Scriptures of the olde Testament are to be taken for Canonicall and which haue bene doubted of which Epistles quoth we haue bene written and printed in all Bibles by the space of these thousand yeres and more to warne al readers of that difference of the said Apocrypha from the true Canonicall and to arme them as it were against the errour of confounding the Canonical Scriptures with these Apocrypha for the which cause as it seemeth hee also nameth that Prologue Galeatum as an helmet for defence against that error But nowe sitchence the Tridentine Councill some Popish printers haue left out the sayd Prologue and Epistle of S. Hierome who yet declareth this his iudgement likewise in his Preface to the first booke of Esdras also Sherwin one of Master Campions fellowes answered to these allegations that Hierome did Iudaizare and more was not ◅ayd to these places We also alleadged Eusebius who hauing made rehearsall of those bookes of the newe Testament which be vndoubtedly true nameth also such as were gainesayd and writes thus Quibus vero contradicitur c. those bookes that are gainesayde though they be knowen to many be these The Epistle which is attributed to S. Iames the Epistle of Iude the latter of Peter the second and third of Iohn And the same Eusebius in another place affirmeth plainely the sayd Epistle of S. Iames to be a counterfaite or bastard Epistle To this authoritie they said that it was true that he so said and as we alleadged them and that when he wrote it was lawfull for any man to doubt of those bookes that he called Apocrypha but seeing by the Church that was by the Councill of Carthage now also by the Councill of Trident they were receiued for Canonicall it was blasphemie they said to doubt of the authoritie of those bookes To that was replied that the Synode of Laodicea helde them for Apocrypha Yea said they but that Synode was not generall No more was that of Carthage said we No said they but that of Carthage was after confirmed by a generall Councill in Trullo So was quoth we the Synode of Laodicea which helde them for Apocrypha confirmed also by the same generall Councill in Trullo as there is to be seene But howe doth this agree that not long before you did saye absolutely that S. Iames epistle was written by the same spirit that S. Iohns Gospell was written with and now you ground the credit of S. Iames Epistle and the other vpon these Councils But said we these Councils had no authoritie to make any maner writings Canonical that was not before Canonicall For by the iudgement of S. Augustine in many places of his bookes there are two things requisite to proue any writing Canonicall one is the testimonie of the Church in which the authour liued
vnto priuate vses these sanctified vessels in which is not the true body of Christ but a misterie of the body of Christ is contained how much more the vessels of our bodie which God hath prepared for a dwelling place to him selfe ought wee not to yelde vnto the deuill to do in them what hee will The place is so plaine that no man can deny it hee saith the misterie of Christ is contained in the vessels therefore hee speaketh not of the vessels when they are emptie but when the sacrament is in them which he denieth to be the true body of Christ. Campion The thing may bee abused after the true body of Christ be taken out and yet there is a misterie there because of the spirituall vse the meaning is you must not abuse the thing referred to holy vses by the example of Balthasar and therefore the misterie is alwayes there when the vessels are emptie Fulke A very secret misterie in deede that is in the emptie chalice Well well I thinke that there is none so simple here but he may see in what case you stande Campion A misterie is not alwaies taken in one sense Why may there not be a misterie of Christ in the emptie chalice there is a misterie of Christ in euery thing I would you might answere me a while to that I could bring out of Chrysostome Fulke You are not allowed to oppose at this time but I will answere you in writing whatsoeuer you can bring As for this matter all men see how vnable you are to answere I could helpe you with a better answere my selfe Goade If Christ be present in the sacrament in his naturall body then his bodily presence must continue so long as the vse of the sacrament continueth to the worldes ende But Christ touching his bodily presence doeth not so continue Therefore Christ is not present in the sacrament in his naturall body Camp Christ doeth and so shall continue his bodily presence to the ende of the worlde Goade Christ him selfe hath denied his bodily presence or continuance Therefore he shall not so continue Campion I denie your antecedent Goade Io. 16. vers 28. I leaue the world and goe to the father And Math. 26. 11. The poore yee shall haue alwaies with you but me ye shall not haue alwaies Camp He meaneth he will not be conuersant in the world as then he was touching his outward conuersation and poore estate you shall not saith he haue me alwaies with you as you haue the poore Here he was entring into a long tale Goade I looked for this shift before I will take away your distinction ye are too full of wordes ye will not suffer mee to goe on with mine argument you are belike afraide It is spoken in respect of his bodily presence simplie Therefore not in respect of his poore estate Campion Proue what you can I deny your antecedent Goade I proue it by Saint Augustine expounding the same wordes of our Sauiour Christ. Tractat. in 10. 50. Pauperes semper habebitis vobiscum me autem non semper loquebatur enim de presentia corporis sui Nam secundum maiestatem suam secundum prouidentiam secundum ineffabilem inuisibilem gratiam impletur quod ab eo dictum est Ecce ego vobiscum sum vsque ad consummationem seculi secundum carnem quam verbum assumpsit secundum id quòd de virgine natus est c. non semper habebitis vobiscū Ascēdit in coelum non est hîc ibi est enim sedet ad dextrā patris hîc est non enim recessit praesentia maiestatis Secundū praesentiā maiestatis semper habemus Christum secundum praesentiam carnis rectè dictum est discipulis Me autem non semper habebitis The poore ye shall haue alwaies with you but me ye shal not haue alwaies he spake this of the presence of his body For according to his Maiestie according to his prouidence according to his vnspeakeable inuisible grace that is fulfilled which Christ said Lo I am with you to th ēd of the world according to the flesh which the word tooke according to that he was borne of the virgine c. you shal not saith he haue me with you alwaies He is ascended into heauen is not here for he is there sitting at the right hād of the father And he is here for he is not departed according to the presence of his maiestie According to the presence of his maiestie we haue Christ alwaies with vs according to the presence of his flesh it was well said to his disciples But me you shal not haue alwaies Augustine in his first wordes expoundeth this to be spoken of the bodily presence of Christ simply Campion It is spoken according to his visible conuersation Proue any thing against this Goad Augustine excludeth all kinde of bodily presence Therefore it is not spoken according to his visible cōuersation Camp I denie your Antecedent Goad Augustine acknowledgeth only two kindes of presence of Christ the one the bodily presence of his flesh the other according to his maiestie prouidence inuisible grace According to this latter kind he saith Christ is present with vs which he directly opposeth to his bodily presence Therfore all kinde of bodily presence is excluded Campion There is no contrarietie to that I said before S. Augustine excludeth not by maiestical presence al bodily presence Make your Syllogisme and I will answere you Goad It is more then the vsuall order of disputatiō to require a Syllogisme when I am come to the issue of mine argument namely to authoritie as now we are come to Augustine but I will followe your request Do you answere directly Thus I make mine argument out of Augustines wordes Christ is now present with his Church touching his maiestie and vnspeakeable grace Therefore by no meanes touching his body Campion I deny your argument Goad Augustines wordes proueth it making but two kindes of presence of Christ namely presence of maiestie and presence of flesh and opposeth the one against the other Camp He speaketh not of Christ present in the sacrament but of his presence which euery Christiā man may haue he speaketh according to Subiectam materiam he excludeth not his naturall presence in the sacrament Goad You answere not the argument out of Augustine But I will followe you and proue that hee excludeth the presence of Christes naturall body in the sacrament He excludeth all presence saue that by his maiestie prouidence and grace Ergo he excludeth the presence of Christes naturall body in the sacrament Camp To your Antecedent I answere he excludeth all ordinary presence by outward conuersation and sheweth how Christ is present with euery Christian by his spirit and grace hee speaketh not of his presence in the sacrament Goad He speaketh generally excluding all bodily presence Therefore aswell in the sacrament as without Camp Hee speaketh generally quoad subiectam materiam according to
booke of Wisedome Ecclesiasticus Maccabees c. which your Councill of Trent thrust in as authenticall But to leaue that it is plaine that Cyprian vpō the Creede omitteth al that Apocrypha hauing rehearsed those which be Canonicall he sayth Haec sunt quae patres intra Canonem concluserunt ex quibus fidei nostrae assertiones constare voluerunt Sciendum tamen est quod alii libri sunt qui non Canonici sed Ecclesiastici a maioribus appellati sunt vt est Sapientia Salomonis Ecclesiasticus libellus Tobiae Iudith Machabaeorum libri quae omnia in ecclesijs legi voluerunt non tamen proferri ad authoritatem ex ijs fidei confirmandam These are those thinges which the fathers shut within the Canon by which they would haue the assertions of our fayth to stande Notwithstanding we must know that there are other bookes also which of our Elders were called Ecclesiast and not Canonicall as Salomons booke of Wisd. Ecclus. the bookes of Tobias Iudeth the Macca all which they would haue read in the Church and yet not brought forth to confirme the authoritie of fayth out of them Camp He is called cōmonly Author expositionis in Symbolum and therefore doubtfull whether it were Cyprian or no but admit it were I answere to these and all such like places that when particular Fathers particular Councils doe recken vp such such books omit others that either were receiued there or in other places sithens they recken vp such as were thē come to their knowledge and such as were approued in that part of the worlde where they thē liued But it followeth not they reckened no more Ergo there were no more They doubted therefore we must acknowledge no more For the Church hath since put them out of doubt Walker You answere not but trifle For those are not onely omitted and left vnreckoned but they are set downe for Apocrypha or Ecclesiastici so certaynely named and not Canonical Camp Some might bee set downe then as doubtfull that nowe are out of doubt because they are receiued Charke Hitherto you haue gone from the matter wherein I haue bene willing to followe you a little to cleare the poynt that then was in hande when I began with you Nowe let vs come to the questions agreed of betweene vs. Camp Nay let vs first speake of the authoritie of the Scripture then if you will of the sufficiencie Charke Of the authoritie we haue spoken alreadie and it is not within our question which is onely of sufficiencie Camp I deferre to the scriptures all authoritie and all sufficiencie therefore you haue nothing against me Charke Yes I haue this against you that you doe not thinke the scriptures onely and alone sufficient to all doctrine of fayth and maners For whatsoeuer you say we knowe you holde and teache the contrary namely that all things are not set downe and written in the worde This other day you were still calling for Syllogismes and when you had receiued a blowe and stoode astonied vnder it yet you cryed out a Syllogisme a Syllogisme to make men beleeue that you were not touched Now you shal haue Syllogismes answere to them directly and shortly Thus I proue the sufficiencie of the scripture without traditions What the Apostles taught viua voce by liuely voyce that also they wrote But they taught viua voce whatsoeuer is necessary to saluatiō Therefore they wrote also whatsoeuer is necessary to saluatiō Camp Nego argumentum I deny the Argument Charke It is a Syllogisme you woulde haue denied my Maior I thinke Camp Proue your Maior then Charke What care they had ouer the Churches present the same care they had ouer the Churches to come afterwarde But their care ouer the Churches present was to open to them all the counsell of God Therefore they left the like prouision in writing to al posterity that they might be instructed in all the counsell of God Camp I answere to the Maior They had the same care but in such sort as it was expedient It was not expedient that they shoulde write all and euery sillable that they spake and yet notwithstanding they disclosed all the counsell of God either in speciall or generall words written Charke Uery wel then we are come to the issue of the matter and you graunt the question that all doctrine both concerning faith and maners is either in speciall or generall words conteined in the Scripture Camp I agree But heare mine answere out of S. Augustine against Crestonius Where it can not be aduouched in scripture by speciall words that the baptisme of heretikes is good yet it is deliuered in the scripture by generall wordes forasmuch as the scripture doeth command vs to obey the Church which hath allowed this baptisme being conferred in forma Ecclesiae So the doctrines not particularly discoursed in scriptures are yet conteyned in these wordes Obey your prelates The Church is the pillar and supporter of trueth And if he heare not the Church let him be to thee an Ethnike and Publicane Charke You say particular matters are conteined in those general words Obey your Prelates Do you meane that we must obey them in causes not conteined in the word Then you may binde vs to what you list and disalowe what yee please Therefore syr that I may seeke your corners and finde you out what meane you by this when you say that Generall commandementes allowe particular traditions Camp I named not traditions Charke But it is the effect and scope of your speache for obedience to your Church Prelates in matters not expressed in the Scriptures Camp I saye there be poyntes wherein wee accorde with you as the baptisme of heretiques the baptisme of infantes the holy ghost proceeding from the father and the sonne that baptisme is a Sacrament and Preaching is none being both commaunded at one time that the Eucharist is a Sacrament and washing of feete none being commanded at one time and such like c. Charke To say that the proceeding of the holy ghost from the father and the sonne is not expressed in the scripture is a blasphemous speach Camp Shewe me any sentence expressing it in the scripture Charke It sufficeth to shewe it inferred in the scripture by good proofes of consequence implication But what say you to traditions decrees and such like which the Church of Rome maintayneth as the very word it selfe Let vs speake of them being now in question and not breake out into newe matters not in controuersie Camp I will not go from my question Charke You shall come to it if you take vpon you the defence of your traditions which I disproue in this maner If the Apostles left nothing vnwritten that is necessarie to saluation the scriptures are sufficient But the Apostles haue left nothing vnwritten necessarie to saluation Therefore the scriptures are sufficient Camp I graūt it as before referring it to that
an ende And then turning vs to the auditorie we said You haue heard howe Master Campion in his printed booke hath charged vs as rasers manglers and spoylers of the holy Scriptures of meere desperation and distrust in our cause as he saith You haue heard how he would proue vs so to be by certeine places by him in his said printed booke noted as being the wordes of Luther and others in their bookes You haue heard and seene proued by the bookes them selues that there is no such thing to be founde in those places of their bookes as he hath set downe but onely that S. Hierome and Eusebius aboue a thousande yeere sithen doubted of the authoritie of those Epistles bookes And you haue heard and it is vniuersally knowen that S. Hieroms Prologue and Epistle wherein he noteth those bookes to be Apocrypha haue bene ioyned with all Bibles that haue bene written and printed euer since S. Hieromes time by the space of a xi hundred yeeres and more vntill now of late sithen the Tridētine Councill some Popish Printers haue left them out And you haue heard that not onely now of late the Councill Tridentine hath made the Apocrypha of equal authoritie with the vndoubted Canonical scriptures but also that it is set down in the B. of Romes Canon law that his Decretal epistles are to be numbred together among the Canonical scriptures so finally you see what iniurie these men do thēselues to the holy scriptures what blasphemy they haue cōmitted in matching their fables with the Canonical scriptures who do most vniustly charge vs with those crimes Sherwin said but you should haue told withall what we haue answered to all those pointes We said your answere is to be looked for when you can bring foorth your copies which you speake of and promised for in any bookes by you named extant and to be had there is nothing of that which M. Campion hath set downe to be found And here the time being spent we made an end for that forenoones conferēce The after noones conference IN the fore noones conference both Master Campion himselfe others of his companions had oftentimes required vs that we woulde deale with them in some matter of doctrine and leaue that course that we began with in the examining of his booke Whereunto we answered that we were minded if the time would suffer vs to examine other partes of his booke and lay it open to the audience there howe that as he had most vntruly charged Luther and others with the mangling and spoyling of the bodie of the holy Scriptures in the beginning of his booke so had he likewise most vntruly and impudently in other places slaundered other worthie men and vpon the same his good groundes he had charged vs all as rasers and manglers of the holy Scriptures And surely our opinion was that if any thing at all that laying open before his face of his continuall vntrueths which he hath so braggingly aduouched in his booke might haue reclaimed him For vndoubtedly he could neuer haue endured the manifestation of those his lyes as they were in the confutation of his booke shortly after set out had they bene layde open before his eyes which might manifestly appeare to all that did marke his gentle and milde behauiour and speach in the After noones conference in comparison of his bragging and lewde wordes vsed in the forenoone Notwithstanding at our meeting at after noone we sayde vnto Master Campion seeing your desire is so much to dispute in some matter of doctrine we will not refuse But first we pray you let vs qd we peruse the Canon that foloweth that which we last dealt with in the fore noone concerning the Popes Canons and the Canonicall Scriptures for that the time would not then suffer vs to reade it The wordes of Pope Leo the fourth there translated worde for worde are these For this cause I feare not to pronounce more plainely and with a loude voyce that he that is conuinced not to receiue indifferently the statutes of the holy fathers which we haue spoken of before which with vs are intituled by the name of Canons whether he be a Bishop a Clarke or a laye man that he is proued neither to beleeue nor to holde profitably and effectually to his effect the Catholique and Apostolique faith nor the foure holy Gospels This saith Pope Leo. You may see quoth we whereunto this boldnesse of matching mens writings with the holy Canonical Scriptures is come Fore here Pope Leo with a loude voyce pronounceth that whosoeuer doeth not indifferently receiue the Canons is conuicted neither to reteine effectually nor beleeue the Catholique and Apostolique faith nor the foure holy Gospels whereby he matcheth the beleeuing receiuing or refusing of his Canons with the beleeuing or refusing of the foure holy Gospels for so we said that the proofe of that Canon and the worde indifferently did importe Master Campion indeuoured very much to quallifie this worde indifferentèr indifferently and so to mollifie the Popes blasphemie if he coulde and he confessed that there was difference betweene the Euangelistes and other writers for that the Euangelistes and writers of the Scriptures coulde not erre in memorie or any other circumstance but Councils might be deceiued in some such small matters of circumstance As for example sayeth he I am bounde vnder paine of damnation to beleeue that Tobias dogge had a tayle because it is written he wagged his tayle It was sayd by vs that it became him not to deale so triflingly in matters of such waight Why then saith he if this example like you not take another I must beleeue that Saint Paul had a cloake because hee willeth Timothie to bring his cloake We said these thinges were nothing to purpose vnlesse hee could proue that such a promise was made to the bishop of Rome and his Coūcils that whatsoeuer they should determine was sure to be true and certaine They alleaged Christes saying Hee that heareth not the Church let him be reputed as a publicane and heathen We answered that text serued them for all purposes But first they must proue them selues to be the true Church before that text would belong vnto them And where they alleaged out of the 15. of the Actes So it seemeth to the holy Ghost and vs. Wee answered wee knewe well enough that that Councill was gouerned by the holy Ghost wherein the Apostles were president But what maketh that to the wicked Councils of Popes And after much reasoning about the worde indifferenter we said were that word put out yet were it blasphemie to saye that he that beleeueth not the Popes Canōs which are with other there mentioned beleeueth not the foure holy Gospels After this wee began our disputation concerning iustification both for that it is first of all other mentioned in your booke quoth we to Master Campion and both Luther and we all are most grieuously charged by you
Councils which are gathered of all the Christian world and that euen the general Councils themselues are often corrected the former by the latter when by any tryall of thinges that is opened which was shut vp and that is knowen which was hidden without any swelling of sacrilegious pride without any stiffe necke of arrogancie without any contention of malicious enuie with holy humilitie with Catholike peace with Christian charitie Here you haue a plaine place that only the Scripture cannot erre that all other writers may erre that all prouincial Councils may erre and last of all generall Councils themselues may be corrected the former by the latter therefore without question they may erre Campion I answered before you read that a general Councill may be declared and better explaned but not corrected Fulke It may be amended and therefore corrected There is no difference betweene amending and correcting Campion So farre forth it may be corrected as it may bee better explaned but not to set out thinges that are contrary For generall Councils are not one contrary to the other Fulke Saint Augustine sayeth The generall Council may be ignorant of some thing at the beginning that afterwardes by experience may be amended something may be close which afterwarde may be opened it may be hid to one Councill that may be knowen of another And the Antithesis in these wordes must needes stand that only the Scriptures cannot erre and therefore are not to be corrected As for Councils generall and prouinciall and Bishops writings of all sorts may be corrected and therefore they may erre Campion A generall Councill may erre in matter of fact as in condemning and absoluing some Bishops c. but it can not erre in matters of doctrine Fulke Doe you know whereof Augustine speaketh in this place c. Campion Yea as well as you Fulke Why then declare it before this company Campion He speaketh of a matter of fact Fulke Nowe you shewe your selfe altogether ignorant of the matter for he speaketh of the Councill of Carthage that was helde in Cyprians time wherein was concluded an error of faith For they had decreed that such were to be rebaptized as had bene baptized of heretikes With which decree and Cyprians authoritie who was President of the Councill when Saint Augustine was pressed he answereth that onely the Scripture coulde not erre but all other both Bishops writings and Councils might erre and therefore might be reformed c. Campion He speaketh not of a matter of faith as appeareth by the worde experiment For there can bee no experiment in a matter of faith heresie cannot be amended Fulke These are vaine shiftes Men may finde by experience they haue erred Campion The worde amending sheweth that it was in maners Fulke To be corrected and amended is all one and may bee as well in faith as in maners and the argument whereof he entreateth and the Antithesis he maketh betweene the Scriptures and all other authorities sheweth plainely that hee meaneth of errour of faith But seeing you haue nothing else to answere I will leaue it to the consideration of them that bee wise and learned and so long as you bring no matter I will not answere your wordes Goade Seeing you stande vpon Councils I will proceede that way General Councils haue erred ergo c. Campion I deny the Antecedent Goade They are contrary one to another c. Campion I deny it Goade The Councill of Constantinople and the Councill of Nice are contrary Campion They are not Goade They are contrary in the matter of Images namely the Councill of Constantinople condemning the setting vp of Images in the Church and the Councill of Nice afterwarde allowing Images Campion You can not shewe that they were contrary one to an other Goade It shal be shewed afterward I will come to another generall Council The Council of Constance hath erred in matter of faith ergo a general Council hath erred Campion I deny the Antecedent Goade The Councill of Constance erred in taking away the cuppe from the common people this was a matter of faith ergo that Council erred in matter of faith Campion Thus we shall runne into all questions and then we shal haue done this time twelue moneths This was no error in the Council for I say there is no commandement that the people should be partakers of the cuppe Goade By the same reason you may aswell exclude the people from the bread also but though you haue in this poynt denied the force of Christes institution yet the commaundement in the same is plaine Bibite ex hoc omnes Drinke ye all of this And Paul interpreteth it so 1. Cor. 11. deliuering aswell the cuppe as the breade to the whole Church euen as hee had receaued of the Lord. The Council of Constance decreeth against it ergo a manifest and foule errour in that Councill Campion Doeth Saint Paul make it a precept that the lay people should receiue the cuppe Goade Paul iudued with the spirit of God giueth a flat precept in the same chapter verse 28. Probet seipsum homo Let a mā try himselfe and so let him eate of that breade and drinke of that cuppe These are playne preceptes Let him eate Let him drinke and here is as great a commādement to the whole church for the one as for the other Campion The place is to be vnderstoode when he doeth receiue and vnder the obedience of the Church it may be done And this that you make so much a doe about I haue seene it done to many Catholikes my selfe but it is not so necessary that you should make such adoo about it Goade It is not left free but an expresse commaundement and therefore necessary It is the Imperatiue mode and therefore a commaundement I maruayle howe you can stande in this being so plaine Fulke Here are two thinges Probet Edat bibat Let him examine himselfe and let him eate and drinke and both be commaundementes First he must be prepared and then he must eate and not onely eate but he must drinke also For as the institution is of eating and drinking so is the commandement of the Apostle drawen from the institution And if there be no commandement then is no man bounde to receiue the Lordes supper Camp No it is a thing indifferent by the institutiō touching the common people sauing that only the authoritie of the Church hath layde it vpon vs here you may see the authoritie of the church in things not commanded Goade It is a commandement both in the institution and by the Apostle 1. Corinth 11. saying That which I receaued I deliuered grounding his commandement vpon the institution and therefore commanded in the institution Camp Yea he saith when he will or when he doeth receiue then let him examine him selfe Fulke These are your owne wordes there is no such worde here When he will and when he doeth he must proue him selfe and so he
accidents are not that he spake of Campion This is a booke and yet I see not the substance of a booke but whitenesse and other accidents Fulke Who would say that whitenes is the booke none but a madde man neither will any say that whitenesse is the body of Christ or called the body of Christ. Therefore by the word of heauenly bread and of the Sacrament he meaneth the whole sacrament I see you haue nothing but shamelesse shiftes against so cleare authoritie of your owne Canon law speaking against you Campion If you dare let me shewe Augustine and Chrysostome if you dare Fulke Whatsoeuer you can bring I haue answered already in writing against other of your side and yet if you thinke you can adde any thing put it in writing and I will answere it Campion Prouide me ynke and paper and I will write Fulke I am not to prouide you ynke and paper Campion I meane procure me that I may haue libertie to write Fulke I knowe not for what cause you are restrained of that libertie and therefore I will not take vpon me to procure it Campion Sue to the Queene that I may haue libertie to oppose I haue bene nowe thrise opposed it is reason I should oppose once Fulke I will not become a suter for you Camp Sue to the Queene for me it is but an easie suite you being in such credit with your Prince may if you dare procure this matter Catholikes of their prince can obtaine a greater matter and are not you Protestants in such credit with your Prince that you can obteine so small a matter Fulke We meane not to trie our credit in this matter But if you write any thing I will answere you in writing Campion Procure it Fulke It were to small purpose I haue answered already Heskins and Saunders which are like to bring as much as you Campion I am not worthy to cary their bookes after them And you your selfe Sir may be scholer to either of them Goade If Christ be present in his naturall body he must be present in his true body But Christ is not present in his true body Ergo not in his naturall body Camp I deny your minor He is present in his true body Goade A true body must haue the properties of a true body But this hath not the properties of a true body Ergo it is not a true body Camp I deny againe your minor It hath the properties of a true body Goade AmoÌ„gst the properties of a true body this is one special to be circuÌ„scribed in place not to be in many places at once But in your transubstantiation Christes body is made to be in many yea in infinite places at once Ergo it hath not the properties of a true body Campion It is in respect of a miracle not seene with eye but with our faith Goade Now you runne againe to miracle It hath bene before shewed you out of Augustine that there is no miracle in the Sacrament and your selfe sayd that miracles are now ceased Campion It is a great miracle to conuert a sinner yea greater then to make the worlde and this kinde of miracle is dayly Goade Now you would go from the matter this is not properly a miracle But to the purpose Answere the argument That which is in many places at once is not a true body But as you teach Christ in the Sacrament is bodily in many places at once Ergo not a true body Campion The propertie of the fire is to burne yet the three children in the fire 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 â—…ed Wiâ—… you therâ—…e 〈◊〉 that it was truely fire Goade That was in deede and properly a miracle whereof the Scripture testifieth which visibly was seene Campion So is this a miracle Goade Beside it is not sensible which must be in a miracle There is no ground of the worde for it And faith must be grounded on the worde of God Campion The word teacheth that God is omnipotent Goade You that wil reason from Gods omnipotencie must prooue also his will Omnia quae voluit fecit Hee hath done all things whatsoeuer he would Camp Nay you must proue it is not his will Goade I wil proue it out of Theodoret. Dialo 3. qui inscribitur impatibilis writing of the glorified body of Christ after his resurrection Non est mutatum in naturam diuinitatis sed post resurrectionem est quidem immortale ù corruptione interitu alienum diuina gloria plenum sed tamen corpus est quod habet propriam circumscriptionem The body of Christ is not changed into the nature of his diuinitie but after his resurrection it is in deede a body immortall free from corruption and ful of diuine glory but yet it is a body that hath a proper circumscription Campion When it pleaseth Christ to worke a miracle he is not bound to the natural properties he doth not alwayes practise all his properties His body ascending into heauen had the true properties of a body yet did not then practise them It is against the naturall propertie of a body to ascend vpward Goade This ascention of Christes body being an article of our faith is grounded vpon the worde that his body was taken vp neuerthelesse remayned a true body circumscribed in place Augustine sayth we must not take away the trueth of Christs body Epist. ad Dard. 57. Cauendum ne ita diuinitatem astruamus hominis vt veritatem corporis auferamus cui profecto immortalitatem dedit naturam non abstulit Wee must take heede that we doe not so maintayne the Godhead of Christ being man that we take away the trueth of his body whereunto hee gaue immortalitie but tooke not away the nature Campion You neede not bring these places I graunt that Christ hath a true body But you may as well deny the ascension of Christ being against the propertie of a true body to ascend vpwarde Goade I answered before that this is an article of our faith grounded vpon the expresse worde of God And because we do beleeue by the word that Christes body is ascended and sitteth at the right hand of God and from thence shal come to iudge therefore we cannot beleeue the coÌ„trary that Christ is yet present on earth So Augustine reasoneth in the same Epistle Christus Iesus vbique est per id quod Deus in coelo autem per id quod homo Spacia locorum tolle corporibus nusquam erunt quia nusquam erunt nec erunt Christ iesus is euery where as he is God but as he is man he is in heauen Take away space of places from bodies they shall be in no place and because in no place they shall haue no being at all Campion I thinke I haue answered sufficiently he is present not naturally but miraculously Goade Why then ye destroy the propertie of a true bodie and so consequently take away the trueth of a body Campion I grant the
Augustine Camp The words are forcible of bread is made flesh Sermo Christi est operatorius The word of Christ is of power efficacy Goade That is of common bread is now made Christes body appointed to be a sacrament of his body And although this be a wonderfull chaunge by the force of Christes word and Institution that common bread should be chaunged to a spirituall vse yet Ambrose doeth not say that the substance of breade is chaunged but rather the contrary that the substance doeth still remaine as appeareth by diuers examples of miracles he alleadgeth in the same chapter and also by his wordes Vt sint quae erant in aliud commutentur That they should remaine and be as they were also be chaunged touching the vse Now you haue vrged what you can out of Ambrose I will returne againe to followe mine argument drawen from the wordes of the Institution as they are explaned by S. Paul 1. Cor. 10. 16. Panis quem frangimus c. The bread which we breake is it not the partaking of the body of Christ Whereby appeareth that after sanctification remayneth bread for he sayth the bread which we breake and breaking followeth after blessing or sanctifying It can not be vnderstoode the body of Christ for that can not be broken So by this place after consecration remaineth bread still Campion It reteineth still the name of bread in diuers respects first because it was bread before and secondly because it hath the shew of bread as Moyses rod being turned into a serpeÌ„t keepeth still the name it had before Goade You are nowe wandring into discourses I will not followe you The Apostles plaine wordes taketh away your answere It followeth in the text We are all partakers of the same bread he sayth not the same that was bread before and it is consecrate before it commeth to participation And the same Apostle in the next chapter oftentimes repeateth and calleth it breade when it commeth to be receiued after sanctification Campion I haue giuen you two causes why it is so called I will adde the third because of the analogie betweene the bread and that which feedeth our soules Make a Syllogisme Goade I vrge the wordes of the Apostle there needeth no Syllogisme answere plainely and directly Campion I haue giuen three causes why it is called bread Goade Your causes can not stand For touching your comparison of the rod turned into a serpent there appeared a sensible chaunge as is vsuall in miracles but here is no such thing in the sacrament and therefore the comparison holdeth not And for the analogie it maketh directly against you For euen as the bread receiued feedeth the body so â—…eth Christ the soule But if when it commeth to be receiued into the body there be no bread in deede as you say then where is your analogie Campion It suffiseth that it was bread before and so appeareth the analogie by the feeding of our soules Goade What doeth the bread feede our soules Camp Yea Christ that is the bread of life feedeth our soules Make a Syllogisme and then we shal see whether your argumeÌ„t hath any face or force Goade Wee are come to the wordes and authoritie of the Scripture If the wordes of Christes Institution and all these manifest places of the Apostle be of no force then I confesse mine argument to be nothing I leaue you to iudgement Fulke Your answere is taken away by the worde breaking The breade which wee breake c. The bodie of Christ is not broken but the breade and not that which appeareth to bee breade Campion The bread is broken by qualitie and not by substance Can substance be broken Bulke Bread is broken And bread is substance Therefore substance is broken When stickes are broken shal we say that the subance of them is not broken but the accidents this is foolish Sophistrie But I will reason thus with you There is something in the Sacrament materiall which goeth the way of all meates Ergo there is bread and wine Campion Whatsoeuer becommeth of all those qualities the colour the taste the quantitie c. it happeneth to them as to accidentes for it is certaine there remayneth neyther bread nor wine Fulke The taste goeth not that way nor in deede any of the accidentes vnaltered but heare what Origen sayeth in Matth. cap. 15. Quod si quic quid in os ingreditur in ventrem abit in secessum eijcitur ille cibus qui sanctificatur per verbum Dei perque obsecrationem iuxta id quod habet materiale in ventrem abit in secessum eijcitur Caeterum iuxta precationem quae illi accessit pro portione fidei fit vtilis efficiens vt perspicax fiat animus spectans ad id quod vtile est Nec materia panis sed super illum dictus sermo est qui prodest non indignè comedenti illum Et haec quidem de typico Symbolicoque corpore Camp The quantitie is auoyded and other accidents Fulke It is monstruous that you speake Origen sayeth the materiall part of the Sacrament and the matter of bread I will reade his wordes in Englishe If whatsoeuer entreth into the mouth goeth into the belly and is cast out into the draught euen that meate also which is sanctified by the worde of God and by prayer according to that which it hath materiall goeth into the belly and is cast forth into the draught But according to the prayer which is added vnto it after the portion of faith it is made profitable causing that the minde may be made cleare of sight looking to that which is profitable Neyther is it the matter of bread but the worde spoken ouer it which profiteth him that eateth it not vnworthily And these things are spoken of the typicall and symbolicall body Campion I haue answered The accidents go the quantitie qualitie and such like Fulke The place is playne Origen acknowledgeth a materiall part of the Sacrament which is substance In what praedicament is Materia Campion In none Materia taken indefinitely is in no praedicament for it is in all praedicaments The matter of substance is in substance of quantitie in quantitie c Fulke Wel then the matter of substance is substaÌ„ce The matter of bread is the matter of substance therfore the matter of bread is substance Then it is substance and not accidentes which is auoyded by Origens iudgement Campion He sayth not the matter of bread is auoyded Fulke He sayeth that meate which is sanctified according to that which it hath materiall is auoyded Meate is that which feedeth accidents feede not Therefore accidents are not called meate Campion Accidentes doe feede and that I will stande to prooue Fulke Philosophie Physieke and Diuinitie are much beholding to you It was neuer heard of before that bare accidentes without substance could feede or nourish Campion He meaneth the matter of the sacrament and not the materiall substance of bread which is
his blood Fulke You haue many wordes to no purpose in the worlde Campion Why is a mans brayne called his witte It were reason that I also should haue my course sometime to oppose and you to answere which if it fell so forth I doubt not but I coulde vrge you as well in these matters as you do me and driue you also to narrowe shiftes in the defence how Christ tooke flesh of the virgine Marie Fulke To take vpon me the person of an answerer is not my choyse and yours as also the place of opponent which I nowe susteine was not sought for by me And to graunt that which you now require resteth in the superior powers Camp Well then vse the helpe of your friendes to sue for obteining of the same For if you or the like were in Catholique cities that I know and did but once signifie your desire in the like case free disputation and conference would out of hand be procured And I in my defence challenge you here if you dare to aunswere to such points as I shal obiect against you Fulke I wil make no suite for the matter neither are you the man whome I would choose mine aduersarie to matche my selfe withall Camp In deede I thinke to obteine that suite would not bee for your aduantage Fulke Thinke of your selfe as highly as you list yet when you haue reckened all your gayne will be litle or nothing I will come to mine argument The elements go not from their nature and substance Ergo there is no transubstantiation Campion I deny your Antecedent Fulke I proue it by authoritie of Theodoret Dialog 2. Neque enim signa mysticapost sanctificationem recedunt à natura sua Mauent enim in priori substantia figura forma videri tangi possunt sicut prius For the mysticall signes after sanctification do not go from their nature For they remaine in their former substance shape and forme they may both be seene and touched as before Camp I answere he is so to be vnderstoode as he may confound the heretique with whom he did dispute Fulke Uery well and for that purpose he sayth the nature of the signes remaineth to moue that the nature of Christes humanitie remaineth after the assumption Campion Nature is not taken for substance Fulke Theodoret sayeth they remayne also in their former substance Campion He speaketh popularly hee must not be taken so strictly The word substance is often times taken for being therefore it must not be here taken for a speciall substance but genericè for a generall being Fulke Then it woulde followe that the proper substance of Christes body remaineth not but a generall being thereof Camp The heretique graunted that Christ had a body but he said it was a phantsticall body and not a true body Fulke And your answere will helpe the heretike very well As the signes remaine not in their proper substance but in a generall being or accidents so the humanitie of Christ after it was assumpted by the Diuinitie was absorpte of the same But Theodoret against the Eutichean by the similitude of the mysticall signes remayning in their nature and substance after sanctification proueth the veritie of Christes humanitie after his incarnation Campion You must not presse the similitude so substance is taken generally for being Fulke You were best to say as Saunders doeth that substance is taken for the bulke of the bread though there be no bread Campion I say it is an vnproper speach Fulke If euer we must speake properly we must do it when we dispute against heretiques as Theodoret did Camp I haue answered by substance he meaneth a being and such haue accidents Fulke That answere wil not stand with Theoderets words For Christ hath not nowe those accidentes with the which hee was incarnate but the same substance You shall heare the argument of Epanister the heretique As the symbols of the bodie and blood of our Lord are one thing before inuocation and after inuocation are changed and made other things so the Lordes body after the assumption is chaunged into the diuine substance But Theodoret telleth him that he is taken with his owne nette For the mysticall signes depart not from their nature but abide in their former substance forme and shape Here you see he speaketh both of substance and accidents Campion I graunt so farre forth as it made against the heretique Fulke But it maketh not against the heretique vnlesse transubstantiation be denied Campion Yes it maketh against the heretique that the bread being turned into the very bodie of Christ prooueth that Christ had a true body Fulke You doe open violence to the place His argument is not of the bodie of Christ to prooue his humanitie but by the remayning of the mysticall signes in their former substance and accidents to proue the perfite remayning of Christes humanitie after his incarnation Campion Euery argument vsed by the Fathers must not bee pressed farther then their purpose which was to confounde heretiques Fulke But herewithal is his minde expressed against the heresie of transubstantiation Camp I graunt it doth cary some suspition against transubstantiation but it doeth not make against it Fulke He could not more plainly haue spoken against it then to say the nature and substance forme and shaperemayneth in the bread and wine after sanctification Campion He is to be vnderstood that the substance doeth remayne in vacuitate sed tamen quantitate qualitate c. Fulke Euery man may see howe seely shiftes you be driuen vnto and howe farre you roue from that auncient fathers meaning I will presse you with another authoritie Goade I will vrge you with an other argument out of the same author whereby his iudgement shall appeare in moe places then one that he is flat against transubstantiation his wordes are these dialog 1. qui dicitur immutabilis Volebat enim eos qui sunt diuinorum mysteriorum participes non attendere naturam eorum quae videntur sed propter nominum permutationem mutationem quae fit ex gratia credere Qui enim quod natura corpus est triticum panem appellauit vitem rursus seipsum nominauit is symbola signa quae videntur appellatione corporis sanguinis honorauit non naturam quidem mutans sed naturae gratiam adijciens For he would haue those which are partakers of the diuine mysteries not to regard the nature of those thinges that are seene but for the chaunge of the names to beleeue that chaunge which is made by grace For he which called that which by nature is his body corne bread and againe called himselfe a vine euen he did honor the symbols signes which are seene with the name of his body and blood not chaunging nature but adding grace vnto nature Out of which wordes I reason thus The symbols and signes remayne in their owne nature after they be consecrate Ergo there is no transubstantiation Campion In great
Church supposing alwayes a true Church I pray you of what Church are you Charke We talke of the true Church and therefore this question is needles Are we to obey any thing contrary to the worde of God You can imagine nothing left to the Church that is not manifestly conteyned in the scripture Camp Call you manifestly particularly Charke To what purpose is that question I must bring you to a Syllogisme lest you auoyde disputation by digressing into other matter If any thing be left obscure or not fully handled by the Apostles it was either because the Apostles could not or because they would not write manifestly and fully But it is a blasphemie to say they could not and it is false to say they would not Therefore they haue written all manifestly and fully Here Campion repeated the Argument and then sayd thus Camp I answere to the word manifestly either in generall or particular termes manifest and this the Apostles both could and would For this is manifest enough Beleeue the Church but it is not particular Charke While we dispute of the manifest and full contents of the scripture leaue to choppe in the needles terme Particular manifest generals include particulars And where I pray you are we commaunded to beleeue the Church in matters not contained in the written worde By this vncerteine rule you may warrant all former traditions and bring in any newe absurdities Camp That is not the question Charke But it is a necessary note for the confutation of your answeres and doctrine of vnwritten verities Therefore I thus proue against you To leaue a doore open to any chaungeable or doubtfull traditions is not to teache things manifest enough in the scriptures But to send vs to your Church prelates in matters not expressed in the written word is to leaue a dore open to chaungeable and doubtfull traditions Therefore to sende vs to your Church prelates in matters not expressed in the written worde is not to teach thinges manifest enough in the scriptures Camp To leaue a doore to traditions which the holy ghost may deliuer to the true Church is both manifest and seene as the baptisme of Infants the holy ghost proceeding from father and sonne and such other things mentioned which are deliuered by tradition Proue these directly by the scripture Charke Which proposition in the Syllogisme doe you deny Camp Proue the baptisme of children and the proceeding of the holy Ghost not to be traditions Charke I maruayle you thus auoyde the Syllogisme and what you meane to match doctrines contained in the word of God with vnwritten and vncerteyne traditions of men It is plaine that the baptisme of children is proued by the analogie of Circumcision with baptisme childrē being circumcised the eight day Also by that the Sacraments of the old Testament are the same with the Sacraments of the newe The proceeding of the holy ghost is euidently proued by this that our Sauiour promiseth to send the holy Ghost Camp Proue the proceeding of the holy ghost Ex parte filii That is on the sonnes part For that is the point Charke It is proued by my former words and where Christ breathed vpon his disciples and said Receiue the holy ghost Camp Well leaue that talke of baptisme which this company vnderstandeth better Suppose that I am an Anabaptiste And y◠Anabaptist denieth this argument because children should not be baptized till the eight day and the scripture willeth them to be baptised that beleeue so that first they must haue Faith or els they may not be baptized Charke I reply to you that Infidels of age to vnderstand and beleeue must beleeue before they be baptised and admitted to the Church but the children of beleeuers being the seede of the faithfull they may receiue the seale of the couenant of God made to the Fathers and to their seede according to that of the Apostle If the first fruites be holy the lumpe also If the roote be holy the branches also are holy But to the question Notwithstanding the scriptures be the only rule triall of all questions in religion and do fully proue the matter in hand yet because you wil not be cōtented without them answere a place or two out of the Doctors Eusebius lib. 3. cap 35. of his ecclesiasticall storie writeth that Ignatius being caried prisoner to Rome did exhort the Churches to cleaue vnseparably to the tradition that is to the deliuered doctrine of the Apostles which for safetie it was necessarie to put downe in writing that we might not depart frō it Which excludeth the generall bringing in of vnwritten verities vnder the colour of that text Obey your prelates Camp Reade the place Charke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 In English thus He exhorted the Churches to cleaue vnseparablie to the traditition of the Apostles which he supposed and testified nowe for safeties sake necessarily to haue bene set downe euen in writing Camp What word doe you inferre Tradition I graunt is not alwayes taken for vnwritten veritie This place maketh for those traditions which were not then written Ignatius was S. Iohns scholler and he was Oculatus testis An eye witnesse of things that were not then written but went from hand to hande and therefore he thought it necessarie to leaue in writing such trueth as he had heard and was not written before For the Gospels were not then written Ignatius wrote no Gospell and the text noteth that the things whereof he spake were such as himselfe wrote Charke You mistake the meaning of the place For Ignatius spake not of your doubtfull and multiplied traditions but of the certayne Tradition that is of the deliuered and written doctrine of the Apostles to the which we must cleaue 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is so stedfastly that no force no arte may cut vs off or withdrawe vs from it no not an Angell from heauen much lesse any mortall man howsoeuer magnified with the high titles of Popedome or Prelacie or Apostolicall authoritie Walker You haue graunted that all things are written in the worde and that such traditions as can not manifestly be gathered out of the Canonicall Scriptures are not to be receaued Thereupon I reason thus The same that the Apostles wrote the same they deliuered in tradition But they haue written and deliuered the same things that they read in the Canonicall scripture Ergo their writings and traditions be all one and the same Camp The same that is to say nothing contrarie Walker The same and no other is needefull to saluation Heare the Apostles wordes 1. Cor. 4. Hac de causamisi vobis Timotheum qui est filius meus dilectus fidelis in domino qui vobis in memoriā reducet vias meas quae sunt in Christo quemadmodum in omni ecclesia doceo Who is my beloued sonne and faithful in the Lord who will put you in minde of my wayes which are in the Lorde euen as