no more hurt vs then sacrificium mensae sacrifice of the table doth hurt him and sacrificium incruentum sacrifice vnbloody hurts him and not vs for the popish sacrifice wherein blood is really offered by boulefuls and drunke vp by the Priest if not by the people can hardly beare the name of an vnbloody sacrifice without some charitable glosse or interpretation if the fathers should call it the vnfleshly sacrifice I thinke it would do his carnall presence little good and therefore I cannot see how the terme vnbloody can greatly further him Yet see how this fond Papist prattles one as though these termes Sacrifice Altar and vnbloody were equiualent with Transubstantiation they could not vse the word Transubstantiation because it was not deuised before the Councill of Lateran a worthie deuise no doubt if the bodie of Christ be made of bakers bread for Transubstantiation is a turning of one substance into another but if the bread vanish to nothing and then the body of Christ come into the void roomes which the bread leaues behind it as the Papists hold at this day then must the word Transubstantiation giue place too as well as the bread and cessio or or substitutio giuing place succession substituting or some such new deuise or other must succeed it howbeit the old fathers wanted no words to vtter their mind they were as well able to speake I trow as Pope Innocent and the priests of Lateran But though nothing else be commendable in this Lateran deuise yet may we see by it that it was deuised onely for the Latine Church for transubstantiatio is Latine and such Latin as cannot be handsomely expressed in the Greek tongue and the last session of the Councill of Florence holden two hundred yeeres after this of Laterane giueth vs to vnderstand that the Greeke Church neuer yeelded to Transubstantiation touching the vanishing away of the bread and substitution of the body of Christ me thinkes when I consider of it I heare old Nakefield tell how he came to a wild colt that lay fast a sleepe in the field and being merrily disposed cut a round hole in the forehead of it like prima tonsura clericatus the first shauing of a clearke and then blew his horne in the eare of the colt so as it started vp suddenly and plunged out at that hole and left his kinne behind him euen so the Popish priest finding bread a sleepe vpō the Altar blowes the horne of consecration in the eare of it and makes it skip out at some hole or other and leaue his accidents behind it marry herein our good Catholickes goe beyond Nakefield for he would go no further to tel that the colts skin stood still as plumpe as it did before though the stuffing was run away but these men makes vs beleeue that the body of Christ creepes in at the hole the bread went out and so fils the vacuity of the roome that the accidents or skinne of the bread remaines still as well stuffed as it was before without corrupting or shrinking or any alteration in the world so as in the Sacrament of their Altar men shal see round thing yet nothing is round a white thing yet nothing is white a thicke thing yet nothing is thicke a heauie thing yet nothing is heauie a lumpe of accidents yet nothing denominated round white thicke heauie or any thing else by any one of them all blame me if these men passe not Wakefield by many degrees they say that after consecration it is the reall body of Christ yet if you breake it you breake not the body of Christ if you bite it you bite not the bodie of Christ and which is most absurd you may eate the bodie of Christ but you may neither bite nor crush nor grind it with your teeth All this may be seene in Peter Lumbards Sententious distinctions Lib. 4. dist 12. Est ibi vera fractio partitio saith he quae fit in pane id est in forma panis vnde Apostolus ait panis quē frangimus quia forma panis ibi frangitur in partes diuiditur It is true breaking parting which is done in the bread that is to say in the forme of bread whereupon the Apostle saith the bread which we breake because the forme of bread is there broken and deuided in parts See the impudencie of these men that dare say that is not broken which Paul saith is broken nay which say that is broken which cannot be broken for to say accidents and shewes are broken and eaten with teeth is too great frowardnesse and this did my friend Peter see well ynough and therefore he intreats vs not to thinke much of the matter 1. Cor. 10.16 saying Ne mireris vel insultes si accidentia videantur frangi cum ibi sint sine subiecto Wonder not nor insult not if the accidents seeme there to be broken seeing they are there without their subiect Wel wee are content to pleasure you in so small a matter but when you make Saint Paul to say that broken accidents are the communication of the body of Christ I wish you had beene better aduised but howsoeuer you rid your hands of vs yet Pope Leo the ninth and Victor his successour and Pope Nicholas the second and the rest of their seuerall Councels gathered together at Vercels Turon and Rome almost a hundred yeeres before you were borne or your Sentences written will not be so easily shifted of for Leo and Victor condemned Berengarius and Pope Nicholas at length compelled him violently to recant vnder this forme of words Ego Berengarius confiteor panem vinum quae in altari ponuntur post consecrationem non solum sacramentum sed etiā verum corpus sanguinem Christi esse sensualiter non solum sub sacramento sed in veritate manibus sacerdotum tractari frangi fidelium dentibus atteri I Berengarius doe confesse that the bread and wine which are layd vpon the Altar are not onely a sacrament but the very body and blood of Christ and that they are sensiblie handled by the priests and broken and torne with the teeth of the faithfull not onely in sacrament but in trueth This is a Popes iniunction sitting in his chaire president in Councell in a matter of faith and doctrine which is of irrefragable authoritie in the Popish Church moreouer being a publicke confession it was drawen plainely without gards or welts and must be vnderstood literally Grammatically without shifs or sleights according to the simple purport of the words wherefore my good friend Peter when you presume to say thus Illa Berengarij verba ita distinguenda sunt vt sensualiter non modo in sacramento sed in veritate dicatur corpus Christi tractari manibus sacerdotum frangi verò atteri dentibus verè quidem sed in sacramento tantum Those words of Berengarius are so to be distinguished that the bodie of Christ is said
liter lib. 10. into the contrary extreame Austine himselfe speaking of Tertullian saith thus De Deo noluit aliter sapere qui sane quoniam acutus est inderdum contra opinionem suam visa veritate superatur quid enim verius dicere potuit quam id quod ait quodam loco Esse corporale passibile est debuit ergo mature sententiam qua paulò superius dixerat etiam Deum corpus esse neque enim arbitror eum ita desipuisse vt etiam Dei naturam passibilem crederet c. He would not conceiue otherwise of God who indeed because he was of quicke iudgement sometimes he is ouercome by the sight of the truth contrary to his owne opinion for what could he speake more truly than when hee saith in a certaine place that to be bodily is to be passible therefore he ought to haue altered that sentence in which he had said a little before that God is a bodie for I doe not thinke that he was so vnwise as to thinke that the nature of God is passible Heere is a contradiction namely to be bodily is to be passible and God is bodily which be the premises of a Syllogisme and if you adde the conclusion which ariseth of them Ergo God is passible the falsehood of it will prooue the one of them to be false likewise now the maior is most true saith Austine ergo say I the minor is false and so consequently the one agreeth no better with the other than truth and falsehood you will say then debunt ergo mutare sententiam it is true but he changed it not for ought wee know but left this and some other contrarieties behind him vnretracted yet was he still accounted a very learned man Cyprian when he called for Tertullian was woont to say da magistrum giue me my master Austine saith acutus est he is a quicke and subtile disputer and Erasmus Inter Latinos Theologos multò omnium doctissimus Tertullianus Tertullian was the learnedest by much In praefat oper Hilaric of the Latine diuines Now where our papist still goeth on and tels vs after his absurd manner that the Iewes tare the writings of the Euangelists with contrarietie and that great apparance thereof seemes to be therein heere is but a seeming of apparance against the Euangelists and therefore I hope he is well able to stop any Iewes mouth in that behalfe and to defend the writings of the Euangelists against seemings of apparance if he cannot doe the like for the fathers and doctors then hath he sayd nothing to purpose but bred a suspition in his reader that he had rather the Euangelists should miscarie than the Fathers and this suspition is yet increased in that he accounteth the holy Scriptures without Churches Fathers and Councels to be the fountaine of all Heresie and Atheisme for may not a mans fancie mislead him in the fathers as well as the Scriptures and sucke poyson out of the one aswell as the other I am sure Dioscorus crieth out in the Councell of Chalcedon Ego testimonia habeo sanctorum patrum Athanasij Gregorij Action 1. Ibidem Cyrilli in multis locis ego cum patribus eijcior c. I haue the testimonie of the holie fathers Athenasius Gregorie Cyrill in ma-many places I am cast out with the Fathers c. So Eutyches Ego legi scripta beati Cyrilli Athanasij Ibid. Action sanctorum patrum So Carosus Ego secundum expositionem trecentorum decem octo patrum sic credo c. I beleeue thus according to the testimonie of three hundred and eighteene Fathers Heere bee Fathers and Councels alleaged by arrand heretickes as the grounds of their poyson but of the Scripture Ad pompeium cont epist Steph. de peccac merit remiss lib. 1. 12. Cyprian saith Si ad diuinae traditionis caput originem reuertamur cessat error humanus If wee returne to the head and fountaine of Gods tradition the error of man doth cease And Austine Scriptura sacra nec falli potest nec fallere The holy Scripture can neither deceiue nor be deceiued As for the Church he talkes of if he be straitly examined he will tell you he meanes the Church of Rome and so no Scripture nor enarration of Scripture may goe currant but that which Rome will affoord vs that 's the Church which hee takes to be as he said a while agoe the sure rocke and pillar of trueth De expresse verbo Dei Hosius saith Si quis habeat interpretationē ecclesiae Romanae de loco aliquo scripturae etiāsi nec sciat nec intelligat an quomodo cum scripturae verbis conueniat tamen habet ipsissimum verbum Dei If any man haue the interpretation of the Church of Rome of some place of scripture although he neither know not vnderstand whether and how it doth agree with the words of the Scripture yet he hath the very word of God How like you this my maisters you need talke no more of Fathers and Councels no nor of learning nor wit neither for the Church of Rome whether it agree or agree not with the words of the Scripture will serue the turne you may burne your bookes and goe about other businesse the Church of Rome will watch for you but sirs I pray you tell vs wil your Church of Rome when she hath giuen vs an interpretation stand to it like a post and neuer alter that would be knowen before we yeeld to this which you vrge vpon vs. Nicho. Casanus No we dare not promise you that for we haue a great man one Nicholas Cusanus once a Cardinall in the Church of Rome who hath intituled a book which he hath written in defence of the Church thus De authoritate ecclesiae conciliorum supra contra scripturam of the authoritie of the Church Councels aboue contrary to the Scripture And in that booke he hath set downe Praxis ecclesiae vno tempore interpretatur Scripturā vno modo alio tempore alio modo nam intellectus currit cum praxi c. The practise of the Church interpreteth the Scriptures at one time one way and at another time another way for the vnderstanding runneth with the practise Marry then fie vpon you and vpon your Church our owne fancie will prooue as good an interpreter as either you or your Church Now let vs consider of his three differences betweene the errors of the Fathers those points of doctrine whereof we haue disputed I pray you looke vpon them and you shall find the two first to be the same and the third little differing from the other two the Fathers errors saith he were priuate opinions that 's the first one doctors opinion that 's the next reiected of the Church that 's the last Now if this word reiected be no more but not receiued or allowed for the Church neuer condemned euerie seuerall errour of the Fathers by publicke sentence
or decree then all three is but one for one Doctors priuate opinion includeth a non-allowance or approbation of the Church Againe the foresayd points of Doctrine saith hee are set downe as receiued and practised through the vniuersall Church that 's the first vniformely consented vnto by many that 's the next receiued and practised by the Church that 's the last these three likewise for ought may appeare may goe for one and therefore this man delights rather in number than weight and layeth his learning abroad as wide and side as hee can to fray men rather than to teach them Howbeit if wee giue him his differences to be as many as he would haue them what differences be they Marry they be differences of errours from points of doctrine and what bee those points of Doctrine true or false Marry they bee true else the Church would not receiue them and praise them Why then you see this man laboureth to shew differences betweene errour and truth which is no controuersie let him shew those points of Doctrine to be true and we will easily yeeld that they differ from errour but if they be errours and falshoods in religion as they be indeed the consent of the Church cannot helpe them to bee truths It is a fond conceit to imagine that the Church receiueth practiseth nothing that is erroneous for if the Church cannot tread awrie why saith Chrysostome In oper imperf in Math. hom 49. Ne ipsis quidem ecclesijs credendū est nisi ea dicant vel faciant quae conuenientia sunt scripturis We are not beleeue the Churches themselues vnlesse they say and doe those thinges which are agreeable to the scriptures If an vniforme consent of many cannot erre why saith Austine Ad Paulum Apostolum ab omnibus qui aliter sentiunt literarum tractatoribus prouoco Epist 19 ad Ierom. I appeale to the Apostle Paul from all other learned men that thinke otherwise If the vniuersall Church can decree nothing but truth why saith the same Austine Ipsa plenaria concilia quae fiunt ex vniuerso orbe Christiano De bapt cont Donat. lib. 2. cap. 3. saepe priora posterioribus emendantur Euen of plenarie Councels which are gathered out of all Christendome the former are mended by the latter And Gregorie Nazianzen Ad procopium Concilia non minuunt mala sed augent potius Councels doe not diminish but encrease euils rather As for the Church of Rome which our Papist takes for his vniuersall Church In Math. Can. 8. S. Hilarie giueth vs a rule to cast her state by saying Ecclesiae intra quas verbū Dei non vigilauerit naufragae sunt The Churches in which the word of God doth not watch haue suffered ship-wracke Wherefore if there be any grace in the Romish Church let mee councell her not to bragge and vaunt that Christ hath prayed for Peters faith Luk. 22.32 Math. 16.8 Luk. 22.57 and that she is built vpon a rocke that cannot be shaken for Saint Peters faith fayled almost as soone as our Sauiour had done praying and therefore there is no doubt but she may be shaken This is Saint Pauls councell too as well as mine for thus hee writes euen to the Church of Rome when she was in better case than she is now by size ase and the dice Rom. 11.20 c. Thou standest by faith bee not high minded but feare for if God spared not the naturall branches take heed he spare not thee for if thou continue not in Gods bountie thou shalt also be cut off Thus much of his differences now let vs see how he doth apply them to the assoyling of our Protestants obiections You may see the reason saith he why the Doctors are to be reiected in the one that 's in their priuate opinions and receiued in the other points of doctrine and why we doe not exclude them out of our Church as you haue excluded them out of yours You shall not need exclude them for they neither are nor euer were or will bee of your Church and where you say wee haue excluded them it is but a cast of your tongues office which cannot be made good by any of your differences we exclude their errours not them and these points how generally soeuer they were receiued and practised are no better than errours Howbeit I beseech you obserue the temeritie of this man who talkes thus hand ouer head of receiuing Fathers and yet some of these Fathers he nameth were schismatickes and heretickes as Tertullian for example who was not homo ecclesiae Contr. Heluid Austin de Haeres as Ierome saith and Saint Austine hath registred him for an Hereticke and Schismaticke too in his Booke de haeresibus ad quod vult Deum neither is Hilarie howsoeuer the Romish Church hath made him a Saint ouer hastily to be receiued De Trinitate libr. 10. if he spake as hee thought that Christ had Corpus ad patiendum non naturam ad dolendum A bodie to suffer not nature to be grieued Ibid. lib. 12. alibi and knew not whether the holy Ghost were God proceeding from the Sonne as well as the Father and to be adored as well as promerited Hierom. Ierome against the Luciferians saith That Hilarie did Segregare se cum suis vermitis nouum balneum aperire Did separate himselfe with his wormlings and open a new bath and wrote Bookes against the Church De haereticis rebaptizandis Of rebaptizing Heretickes Obserue further that our Papist reiects Ireneus Tertullian Hilarie and Cyprian in their priuate opinions which he specifieth and receiueth them in the other points in controuersie whereof they say nothing at all neither hath hee alleaged any one of these Fathers to that purpose but Tertullian onely who speakes not of these points after the popish fashion Is not this a proper reiecting and receiuing thinke ye he reiecteth for a priuate something and receiueth for an vniuersall nothing yet the more vniuersall an errour is the more hurtfull it is and therefore till he prooue these points to bee true as well as vniuersall hee doth confirme not answere our obiections yet were they neuer any of them so vniuersall as Cyprians rebaptization Austines necessitie of cōmunicating and some other errours of the Fathers Thus haue I taken away his answeres and vnloosed his knots without cutting and shewed him withall that not one cause but his hanging of his Faith and Religion vppon the Doctors authority is desperate The Dialogue Sectio XXIIII PRo All that you haue hetherto sayd being admitted yet cannot the Church of Rome that now is bee the true Church of Christ because it holdeth many other points of Doctrine directly contrarie to the word of God as the doctrine of Iustification by our owne works whereby you doe attribute your saluation vnto your owne workes and to the merites of dead Saints as if they had workes sufficient for their owne saluation
be short the same Father when he saith In fide liberum suae potestatis arbitrium hommi seruauit Dominus God hath reserued to man in faith a will free and in his owne power What doth he else but place faith in the free will and power of man than which nothing can be more contrary to the doctrine of the Gospel Hilar. in psal 118. neither is the testimonie of Hilarie and Epiphanius of much better regard for when the one saith Est à nobis cum oramus exordium The beginning is from our selues when we pray IdeÌ„ in psal 2. Againe Vnicuique nostrum libertatem vitae sensumque permisit He hath graunted to euerie of vs libertie of life and sence And againe Voluntas nostra hoc proprium ex se habere debet vt velit Deus incipienti crementum dare This our will ought to haue proper of it selfe that when it beginneth God would giue increase And the other Epiph. heres 16. Possumus peccare non peccare It is in our power to sinne and not to sinne And againe Circa hominem est bona operari aut malas res appetere It it in mans power to doe good or to desire euill things I see no inckling of any grace but onely of the naturall force and power of mans will I will not charge these auncient fathers with all that may be gathered out of their writings but this I may say vnder benedicite that such sayings as these were the first grounds and foundations of the Pelagian heresie August contra Iulianum Pelag lib. 1. ca. 2. Pelagianis nondùm litigantibus securius loquebantur saith Austine the Fathres spake with lesse circumspection before they were combred with Pelagianisme The Dialogue Sectio XXI The doctrine of the keyes AS touching this point of doctrine the church of Rome doth teach none a But by your leaue you are deceiued other thing then that which our Sauiour Christ doth in the 16. of S Matthews Gospell in plaine and expresse wordes where hee saith vnto S. Peter Whatsoeuer thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heauen and whatsoeuer thou shalt loose on earth shal be loosed in heauen and in the 20. of S. Iohns Gospell where he saith to all his disciples Whosoeuers sinnes ye remit they are remitted vnto them and whosoeuers sinnes ye retayne they are retayned so that you see the literall sense is for vs and the question betweene vs is of the right interpretation and true meaning of the wordes you b VVe doe so for the keyes of discipline are giuen Matth. 18.18 do interpret the binding and loosing here mentioned to be the preaching of the word of God whereby sinnes are forgiuen and loosed to the penitent hearers and retained vnto the impenitent and vnbeleeuers and we doe say that by these wordes our Sauiour did giue authoritie and commission vnto his disciples and their successors to forgiue sinnes not by their owne power and authoritie but by the power and authoritie of him whose commissioners they be wherein wee doe attribute no more vnto the commissioners in the forgiuing of sinnes than wee doe vnto a seruant that giueth possession of his masters land by vertue of a letter of atturney who although he haue himselfe no interest in the land at all yet hath he full power to conuey his masters interest therein to c He knowes to whom so doth not your popish priest whosoeuer his pleasure is to haue the same conueyed it pleased God to make water an instrument in the forgiuing of sinnes in the Sacrament of Baptisme and in the d VVe know no such sacrament this must goe among other your forgeries sacrament of penance to make man an instrument vnto whom wee doe attribute no more as touching the forgiuenesse of sinnes in the one sacrament then you doe vnto water in the other man who cannot see the heart giueth remission to all that pretend to be penitent and contrite but God who seeth the heart e And would giue it though your new-found sacrament had neuer bin forged giueth remission by the ministery of man to those onely that are truely penitent and contrite And thus much for the true vnderstanding of the question betwéene vs. Now forasmuch as the literall sense being wholy for vs the controuersie doth consist onely in the right interpretation let vs compare together your interpretation and ours that we may the better discerne whether of them is most like to be true f VVe build our faith vpoÌ„ no mans opinion old or yong doe you as best beseemes your pâ—ofession you doe build your faith herein vpon the opinion of Luther or Caluine or perhaps vpon the conceit of your owne braine and wee vpon the authoritie of the g Here is a goodly vaunt if the matter could be so caried away with bigge wordes this fellow would doe well inough ancient fathers and continuall practise of the vniuersall church through the whole world continued from the Apostles and remayning euen to this day To conclude for the vtter ouerthrow of your interpretation thus I doe argue against it If Christ did giue this authoritie of binding and loosing vnto his disciples onely and to their successors as I thinke you will not deny it then cannot the preaching of the word bee that binding and loosing giuen onely to the disciples and their successors because h As though a learned lay man had authoritie to preach the word a learned lay man who is none of the disciples successors may bind and loose in that sense that you doe interpret and open and shut the kingdome of heauen as well as an i VVe allow no such ministers ignorant and vnlearned minister Other doctrine then this as touching the forgiuing or retayning of sinnes the church of Rome teacheth not sauing that whereas in the sacrament of Penance temporall penance is inioyned we doe hold that the k Who gaue that power to the Pope I am sure it is more then euer Peter had or practised or bequeathed to his successors this is not to be found either in S. Matthew or S. Iohn Pope hath power to release alter or mittigate the same eyther in the life of the partie or if the partie fortune to die before the performance of his penance to pardon the same after his death For your ful satisfaction herein I l And I you to the answere wil referre you to a learned discourse thereof written in the english tongue by our countrey man Cardinall Allen. The Answere THe Keyes now remaine to bee scoured from popish rust and to this purpose wee may consider that Saint Peters keyes are first taken in hand Math 16.19 Iohn 20.23 Bellar. de pontif and then those keyes that were committed by our Sauiour to the Apostles yet if you will beleeue Bellarmine the first place out of Matthew doth but promise that Saint Peter should be a keykeeper I will giue the
c. and the other out of Iohn Rom. lib. 1. cap. 2. giueth the Apostles no more but Potestatē ordinis ad remittenda peccata Power of order to remit sins Thus must your papist either be at oddes with Bellarmine or else giue claues iurisdictionis the keyes of iurisdiction onely to Peter and his successors and to the rest nothing but potestatem ordinis and so consequently he must find other places besides these or else his keyes will neither open nor shut as he would haue them Wherefore let him consult with Bellarmine his master before he presume ouer farre vpon the doctrine of the Church of Rome and he will tell him that the keyes both of order and iurisdiction were giuen to Peter in these words Iohn 21.15 c. Iohn 20.21 c. Pasce oves meas Feede my sheepe and to the other Apostles in these as my father sent me so send I you and in these words to receiue the holy Ghost whose sinnes ye remit they are remitted vnto them and whose sinnes yee reteine they are reteined and here note by the way how solemnely Father Bellarmine tels vs that our Sauiour in these two places gaue Summam potestatem Chiefe power to all his Apostles Sed cum quadam subiectione ad Petrum But with a kind of subiection to Peter As if summa potestas and subiectio could possibly agree together or as if Peter himselfe receaued that same high power among the rest vsed it Cum quadam subiectione ad se ipsum with a kind of subiection to himself Such ridiculous absurdities doe men runne headlong into when they are ouer hastily carried away with their owne dreames But goe too let vs intreat the Cardinall to beare with his friend and to procure him a dispensation to vnderstand these two places which he citeth after his owne liking what hath he than to say Marry then I say our sense is more literall then yours well and what saith he else Nay we say that our Sauiour by these words doth giue authoritie and commission to his disciples and their successors to forgiue sinnes not by their owne power and authoritie but by the power and authoritie of him whose commissioners they be Yea but haue they commission to forgiue sinnes wheresoeuer they find it or else in them onely that God is willing to forgiue Their commission I trow is not vniuersall to all without discretion and to dreame who it is that God purposeth to shew mercy vnto is beyond the capacitie of any man liuing Papist to Protestant he that hath a letter of Atturney from his master to giue possession of and knoweth the man to whom he is commaunded to conuey his masters interest Rom. 9.18 but our master hath mercy on whom he will and whom he will hee hardeneth neither may your popist Priest presume that hee knoweth the mind of the Lord Rom. 11.33.34 and can find out his wayes and iudgements which be insearchable and so this silly papist heere confesseth when he saith that man giueth remission to pretended penitents which God who seeth their hearts doth not ratifie now then conferre this power thus exercised hand ouer head to good and bad as papists vse it with our preaching or publishing remission to penitent sinners and then iudge whether is most like to be the better And because he bragges of the literrall sense that it makes wholly for him let him tell mee how the generall words of the Scripture whatsoeuer thou shalt bind whatsoeuer thou shalt loose whosoeuers sinnes yee remit and whosoeuers sinnes ye retaine can be literally restrained to such onely as be truely penitent if this cannot be done without a quatefication let him not bragge that his sense is more literall than ours we preach remission to all that be penitent and so open vnto them the kingdome of heauen to the impenitent Rom. 2.8 and such as contentiously disobey the truth wee denounce indignation and wrath Esay 5.14 and so shut heauen open hell wide that their glory their multitude pompe may descend into it neither can this sense seeme strange to such as be conuersant in the writings of the Fathers Thus saith Tertullian Contr. Marcion lib. 4. Esa lib. 6. cap. 14. De Cain Abel lib. 2. cap. 4. In Oper. imperf in Mat. cap. 23. Quam clauem habebant legis doctores nisi interpretationem legis What keyes had the doctors of the law but the interpretation of the law Thus Ierome Soluunt Apostoli sermone Dei testimonijs scripturarum exhortatione virtutū The Apostles doe loose by the word of God and testimonies of the Scriptures and exhortation vnto vertues Thus Ambrose Remittuntur peccata per verbum Dei cuius Leuites est interpres Sinnes are remitted by the word of God of which the minister is interpreter Thus Chrysostome Clauicularij sunt sacerdotes quibus creditum est verbum docendi interpretandi scripturas The key-keepers are the Priests vnto whom the word of teaching and interpreting the Scriptures is committed But it may be our papist by comparison of his interpretation and ours will find out the truth thus hee writes you build your faith vpon the opinion of Luther or Caluine or the conceit of your owne braine and we vpon the authoritie of the auncient fathers and continuall practise of the vniuersall Church through the whole world continued from the Apostles and remaining to this day Heere is a tale told with all circumstances pressed downe and running ouer for hee might haue left out either vniuersall Church or through the whole world either continued or continuall practise or remaining to this day if he had not purposed to dazle vs with emptie wordes but is this the comparison he crakes of Now surely we must needs bee hard hearted that cannot yeeld to such comparisons can you prooue that wee build our faith vpon Luther or Caluine or our owne braine or doe you compare together our faith and yours when you compare the opinion and conceit of Luther or Caluine with the authority of the ancient Fathers Alas good Papist you cannot but know that our faith is no mans conceit or opinion and it is a shame for you to confesse that you build your faith vpon the authoritie of the Fathers or practise of the Church be it neuer so ancient I hope the fathers builded not vpon other Fathers that were their ancients but vpon the infallible word of God and what should ayle vs that we may not vse that meanes the Fathers vsed before vs you may talke long inough of Fathers and traditions and your toppe gallant Church of Rome as though no one Father sayd any thing for vs yet when you haue all done you must giue vs leaue ot we will take leaue to found our faith and religion vpon the written word of the Almightie Thus is your Popish fellowes Rhetoricke come to small effect and therefore he will now trie what his Logicke can doe Thus
Papisto-Mastix OR THE PROTESTANTS Religion defended Shewing briefely when the great compound heresie of Poperie first sprange how it grew peece by peece till Antichrist was disclosed how it hath been consumed by the breath of Gods mouth and when it shall be cut downe and withered BY WILLIAM MIDDLETON Bachelor of Diuinitie and Minister of Hardwicke in Cambridge-shire Luk. 16.31 If they heare not Moses and the Prophets neither will they be perswaded though one rise from the dead againe AT LONDON ⧠Printed by T. P. for Arthur Iohnson and are to be sold at his shop neere the great North dore of Paules at the signe of the white Horse 1606. Venerabili viro D. Humfredo Tendallo Collegij Reginalis apud Cantabrigienses Magistro reliquisque socijs eiusdem Collegij amicis fratribus in Domino obseruandis PApistomastix iste meus me penè inuito reluctante se offert patrocinio vestro nam cùm probè conscius sine meae tenuitatis nolui proprio iudicio tanquà m sorex perire verùm cùm ex aduerso intelligam vos tanquà m apes bonarum artium aculeos grauitatis clementiae melle temperatos gestare appareat per me licet se velo vestrae humanitatis operiat ne minorem curam religionis quà m famae existimationis habuisse videar Missus est ad me Dialogus iste ab alumno veteri collegij vestri cuius nomen argenteo poculo incisum apud vos manet nec id modò sed ab eodem etiam sum rogatus vt futilibus argutijs personati nescio cuius Papistae responderem Ideoque adhibui eam quam in aduersa valetudine potui diligentiam vt manus remissas soluta genua erigerem rectas orbitas facerem pedibus eius ne claudus deflecteret de via sed sanaretur potiùs Si mihi quoque in hac lucta manus pedes genua defuisse videantur vestrae humanitatis erit Mineruae meae quam Dei prouidentia rusticanam esse voluit non modò dare sed alijs etiā si qui forti iniquiores futuri sunt veniā extorquere Aeternus Deus pater Domini nostri Iesu Christi vos fratresque vestros quos Academia peperit ecclesia nutrit innumerabiles ita fulciat spiritu sancto suo vt patentes papistarum gulae occlusae tandem constrictae sorbere simul flare vorare vomere nec possint nec audeant Vester in Coelesti ministerio conseruus qualiscunque Guiliel Middleton Ierem. cap. 5.26 Among my people are found wicked persons that lay wait as he that setteth snares they haue made pits to catch men Tertull. de praescript aduers haeretic Auolent quantùm volent paleae leuis fidei quocunque afflatu tentationum eò purior massa frumenti in horrea domini reponetur Let the chaffe of a wauering faith flie away as far as it will with euerie puffe of temptations so shall the graine that is layd vp in the Garner of the Lord be the purer Ierem. cap. 8.17 Behold I will send serpents and cockatrices among you which will not bee charmed and they shall sting you saith the Lord. Tertul. de praescript aduersus haereticos Haeretici firmos fatigant infirmos capiunt medios cum scrupulo dimittunt Heretickes wearie the strong catch the weake as in a snare and the middle sort they leaue scrupulous The Fore-speech of Master I. S. to the Author IT was my chaunce good Master M. not long since to bee encountred by a learned Gentleman in the controuersie between the Papists and vs whose arguments I could not answere to my great griefe and offence of diuers there present I then wished your presence and still desired your helpe for my deliuerie out of that Labirinth whereinto he brought me I know that Quaedam falsa maiorem habent speciem probabilitatis quà m quaedam vera as the Philosopher saith and therfore I write not this as wauering in my faith for who so shall stagger for euerie argument whereunto he cannot make a learned solution must either be a profound Clerke or of no faith at all but for my better satisfaction and preparation vnto the like encounter let me entreat vt mihi lumen de tuo lumine accendas For accomplishing whereof I will referre you to the discourse following wherein for auoiding of the tedious repetition of inquam and inquit I haue set downe his oppositions vnder the name of Pa. And my Answeres thereunto vnder the name of Pro. The Authors Answere SIr I see no cause yet why I should thinke otherwise of you than I haue done euer since I first knew you We were brought vp both together in the same Vniuersitie the same Colledge the same Chamber and vnder the same Tutor and it hath pleased you euer since to acknowledge mee as one of your poore friends and so haue I acknowledged you as my christian brother and therefore my full trust in the mercie of God is that now in our age after so long triall one of another Poperie shall not be able to part vs. The Gentleman that encountred with you hath shewed little learning and lesse wit in this encounter but if euerie finger and toe that he hath could write bookes and euerie haire of his head speake parables yet Rome will fall doe what he can and the ruines of it shall neuer be reedified It is your modestie that makes you vnfit but not vnable to answere such popish garrulitie that cannot greeue you if you be wise nor offend other vnlesse they be fooles turbantur quia non illuminantur saith Austine and therefore they that finde themselues troubled with such blinde argumēts as this Gentleman of yours doth afford vs may well be thought to haue little light in them doe but look ouer my answere confer my inquam with his inquit without partialitie and then a Gods name feed in that pasture you finde best fenced God the Father of our Lord Iesus Christ so guide and strengthen you and your family against Iezabel and her Prophets that when your day of reckoning shall come you may answere cheerefully with the prophet Esay Loe heere am I and the children which God hath giuen mee The Praeface to the godly Christian Reader GOod Christian Reader though the carkasse of Poperie Cosmog the better to auoide the heat of truth sit downe and shadowe it selfe like the Sciopodes in Munster with one great legge of traditions yet will it not be amisse if I slit or cleaue that one great legge into two namely Traditions in generall and the Romish primacie in particular that it may stand vp the better to thy view and so make a more open shew of it owne vglinesse Touching the first I am not ignorant how eagerly the ancient Fathers bee vrged vpon vs and how easily their authoritie may be auoided as being no fast friends to Poperie in this argument yet me thinkes the children of Abraham should heare the words of their owne Father rather than any other
follow that if hell fire satisfie the iustice of God in the one it will also in proportionall time satisfie in the other which is not a coits cast from the heresie of the Chiliasts Obserue yet further that Austine here seemes contented that the pearle of the body and blood of Christ should bee layd to pawne for very euill soules euen the cursed enemies of God and laboureth to excuse it when he hath done such sacrificing saith he is some comfort to the liuing as if it were lawfull to pleasure the affections of men with the prostitution of the mysteries of God where he saith elswhere Lib. de Cura pro mort cap. 18. Harding Artic 19. oportet we must offer for all quia non discernimus because we cannot seuer the good frō the bad I answere that his quia doth not make good his oportet for the Sacrifice cōsisting of dead elements cannot apply it selfe without prayer and by prayer we may easily discard euill and cursed soules and so apply this pretended plaster to such sores onely as may be cured There is yet one excuse more behind where he tels vs that it is better our sacrifices should bee offered for such as can haue no benefite by them Lib. de Cura pro mort cap. vlt. quám vt desint ijs qui egent sicut benefacimus iniustis in hoc mundo ne praetereantur iusti then that they which haue need should want as wee doe good to the vnrighteous in the world least the righteous should not be regared This excuse were something worth if sacrificare pro valdè malis were commanded as benefacere iniustis is but sacrificing for damned soules being simply euill we must learne of Paul Rom. 3.8 not to do euill that good may come of it Howbeit these two last excuses teach vs that we cannot helpe Purgatory vnlesse we pray for Hell we must offer for the vniust that be in hell or els the iust that be in purgatory must be pretermitted and this is done for both nay for all tagge and ragge with all indifferency of words and deeds in one vniforme generalitie of prayer otherwise the liuing seeing their dead in any one point neglected cannot conceaue comfort but griefe and discouragement now I beseech you consider how this generall oblation can possibly be so parted among dead soules that for some it is eucharisticall for other some propitiatory and for some a meere nullitie but what speake I of parting it must be all eucharisticall for those that be valdè boni it must be all propitiatory for those that be non valdè mali and for all other either consolatory to the liuing or nullatory to the damned is this possible thinke you we cannot offer for Martyrs and Martyrs fellowes without agimus tibi gratias wee cannot offer for Purgatorians without prasta quaesumus and howe both these can bee confounded in one applicatory prayer as it were ale and beere in one pot to serue all turnes at once it is farre beyond the reach of my wit to conceiue Besides this there remaineth yet another inconuenience in that Austine holds the sacrifice of almes at as high a price in this office of relieuing soules as the sacrifice of the altar and so the qualitie of his speech seemeth to import for whē Paul saith Ephes 6.8 Vnusquisque quod fecerit boni hoc recipiet a Domino siue seruus siue liber What good thing soeuer a man doth that shal he receiue of the Lord whether he be bond or free He giueth vs to vnderstand that in respect of the Lords rewarding of vertue bond and free are of equall regard And therefore when Austine saith Sacrificia pro defunctis propitiationes sunt siue altaris siue quarumcunque eleemosinarum Sacrifices for the dead bee propitious whether they be of the altar or of any almes whatsoeuer his meaning is that these two sacrifices in respect of propitiating the dead are of equall estimation I doubt whether your Papist will allow this for currant diuinitie that in any work of our redemption corruptible things 1. Pet. 1.18.19 as siluer and gold giuen in almes should be aequallized to the precious blood of Christ which he dreames to be really present in the Sacrament and if it should happen that this absurditie will not stoppe his course yet when Chrysostome yeeldeth greater power to the sacrifice of Almes than to the sacrifice of the Altar I trow he will stoppe there if he be not desperate looke his Sermons vpon the Philippians Serm. 3. and there you shal find that such as died without Baptisme called Catechumeni finding no helpe in the prayers and other sacrifices of the Church were notwithstanding somewhat relieued by almes giuing in their names to the poore Omni huiusmodi destituti sunt auxilio saith he vno quodam dempto quonam illo pauperibus illorum nomine dare licet vndeillis nonnihil refrigerij accedit they are destitute of euery such helpe one onely excepted and what is that men may giue somewhat to the poore for their sakes wherby they receyue some refreshing heerehence therefore we may safely gather I thinke that Austine and Chrysostomes sacrifice was not the same with the Sacrifice of the Masse wherin a popish shaueling priest without all shame or feare of God offereth the Sonne of God to his Father Concerning the Treatise de cura pro mortuis agenda Instit lib. 3. 5. 10. Caluin hath truely censured it in these words Tot haetitationes continet vt suo frigore meritò debeat stulti zeli calorem extinguere c. It conteineth so many doubts that the coldnesse thereof might iustly extinguish the heate of foolish zeale And a little after haec vna ect fultura quia inualuit consuetudo c. If that booke haue any better helpes then haesitations and likelyhoods and custome let them be brought to light that we may see them if it haue no other no reason the bare frozen authoritie of any man liuing or dead hanging vpon vnchawed and vndigested coniectures should keepe vs in prison Epist 64. The Epistle to Aurelius which we are likewise willed to read hath this saying Oblationes pro spiritibus dormientium quas vere aliquid adiuuare credendum est super ipsas memorias non fint sumptuosae atque omnibus petentibus siue typho cum alacritate prebeantur nequé vendantur sed si quis proreligione aliquid pecuniae offerre voluerit in praesenti pauperibus erogetur ita nec deserere videbuntur memorias suorum quod potest gignere non leuem cordis dolorem id celebrabitur in ecclesia quod piè honestequé celebratur The offerings for the soules of the dead which we must beleeue doe indeed somewhat helpe let them not be sumptuous ouer their memories and let them be giuen to all that aske them without disdaine cheerefully not sold but if any man for religions sake wil offer any mony let
foundation Christ capitall ofences that those offences may notwithstanding bée purged by a transitorie fire and that they may afterwards attaine euerlasting life but this interpretation dearely beloued is to be corrected for such men seduce themselues by this flatterie for in that transitorie fire whereof the Apostle speaketh where he saith he shall be safe as it were by fire not capitall offences but small sinnes are purged d This Sermon is written long after Austines time by Caesarius Arelatensis Anno 670. Sermone de Sanctis 41. If you take exception against the authoritie of this place as produced out of a counterfeit worke fathered vpon him you shall find in his 16. e This is but facing and bracing Homilie the same doctrine confirmed by the place of Saint Paul before mentioned and out of the Prophets in such plaine manner as no euasion will serue your turne The Answere PVrgatory hath his deaths wound alreadie yet your Papist hopes to saue the life of it by the helpe of Austine and Ambrose and the Great Gregorie yet none of them will say that prayer for the dead and purgatorie are so neere of kin that the proofes of the one may serue for the other for the Canon of the Masse praieth for such as doe Dormire in somno pacis Sleepe the sleepe of peace I doubt they sleepe not ouer peaceably in purgatorie if they do yet I trow he will confesse that Pope Leo for whose soule they pray so deuoutly once a yeere sleepes in heauen at more ease you heard before how Ambrose prayeth for Theodorus Gratian and Valentinian whom he knew to be in heauen and Pope Innocentius the third Cap. cum Marthae Homil. 32. confesseth that we may pray for increase of glory to the Saints of God and so saith Chrysostome in his Homilies vpon Matthew Againe on the other side the Papists pray for the deliuerance of soules out of hell fire Libera domine animas defunctorum de paenis inferni In Missa de mort Damas in orat de mort Lib. 1. cap. 12. de profundo lacu de ore Leonis ne absorbeat eos Tartarus ne cadantin obscurum c. Deliuer oh Lord the soules of the dead from the paines of hell from the deepe lake from the mouth of the Lion that hell swallow them not that they fall not into darkenesse Nay the great Gregorie himselfe prayed for Traians soule deliuered it out of hell and tels vs in his Dialogues that Saint Seuerus his prayers restored a wicked man to life that had bene caried by deuils into hell but if this be too strong for prayer to deale withall what then can be said of such as pray for instigation of the paines of hell Austine saith they may be mitigated Encharid cap. 112. lib. 4. 1. dest 46. and Peter Lumbard teacheth it out of Austine now how this mitigation can be purchased otherwise then by the prayers and suffrages of the liuing it were hard to define Saint Macharius fetched this point of learning out of the dead scull or scalpe of an idolater that sayd thus vnto him Quando pro mortuis offers preces nos interim aliquid lenimenti sentimus Damasc in orat pro mort In lib. 4. dist 45. Art 2. quest 2. When thou offerest prayers for the dead we in the meane while feele some ease or mitigation of paine And the Angelicall doctor of Aquine graunteth that the soules of the damned reape some good by the prayers of the godly wherfore we see that though we graunt prayer for the dead yet purgatory will require peculiar proofes before it can bee graunted Austines authoritie is first obiected out of a booke of Sermons which your Papist himselfe aforehand confesseth to be counterfeit yet he alleageth it at large as though currant and counterfeit were all one neuerthelesse looke the Sermon through and you shall find that these words quia in igne reuelabitur and these Si cuius opus arserit detrimentum patietur If any mans worke burne he shall suffer losse and also these Saluus erit sic tamen quasi per ignem Yet he shall be saued as it were by fire are all ment of the same fire and that such as build gold and siluer and precious stones vpon the foundation of Christ shall passe through it but without any hurt Absque vlla violatione and so come to heauen Velut aurum purgatum that is as gold purified or purged by fire I doubt your Popish Gentleman will not allow all this for currant in his Diuinity Mint and therefore no reason we should accept of it for good payment I could say further that this Authour yeelding somewhat to their errour against whom he disputeth doth but correct their interpretation and draw it a little aside from capitall offences to small sinnes lest denying all and yeelding to nothing his exhortation might prooue fruitlesse Howbeit the true Austine was neuer resolued that Saint Paul in this place to the Corinths speakes of purgatorie as appeareth in his Euchiridion a worke not counterfeit Cap. 67. 97. Si homo sceleratus propter solam fidem per ignem saluabitur sic est accipiendum quod ait beatus Paulus Apostolus ipse autem saluus erit sic tamen quasi per ignem poterit ergo saluare sine operibus fides c. If a wicked man be saued by faith onely by fire and so it is to be taken which blessed Paul the Apostle sayeth but he shal be saued yet so as it were by fire therefore faith is able to saue without workes Heere the knowne Austine makes an if at the matter and dares not expound S. Paul as the counterfeit Austine doth of the fire of Purgatorie nay a litttle after he interprets this fire to be animi dolor saying Cum iste animi dolor vrit si Christus in corde fundamenti locumhabet id est vt ei nihil anteponatur malit homo qui tali dolore vritur rebus quas ita diligit carere magis quā Christo per ignem sit saluus When this griefe of mind doth burne if Christ haue the place of a foundation in the heart that is to say if nothing be preferred before him and the man which is burned with such a griefe had rather want the things which hee so loueth than Christ he is saued by fire Yea but what say you to the place of Austine in his homilies where the doctrine of purgatorie is so confirmed out of Paul to the Corinths and out of the Prophets that you cannot auoid it Alas this is but a Popish brag for this testimonie is as very a counterfeit as the other touching the place it selfe thus lie the words Qui temporalibus paenis digna gesserunt de quibus Apostolus dixit si cuius opus arserit detrimentū patietur ipse ausē saluus erit sic tamē quasi per ignē per fluuium igneum de quo propheticus sermo
sensibly to be handled by the Priests not onely in a sacrament but in trueth but to be broken and torne with teeth truely indeed but onely in a sacrament Your glosse sets the text vpon the racke violenlty drawes the members of it a sunder which are copulatiuely chained together in the text tractari frangi fidelium dentibus atteri distinguenda sunt quoth he alas euery child may see it cannot beare such a distinction and therefore either suffer your Popes text to stand still in force or else set downe plainely like honest meaning men that your Pope and his Councell haue grossely erred Howbeit the former part of the Popes words haue most need of a glosse for when he saith that bread and wine after consecration is not onely a sacrament but also the true body and blood of Christ if he meane the accidents they can be neither body nor blood if he meane the substance that 's vanished Lib. 4. dist 1◠if he meane substantia mutata in id quod facta est the substance changed into that which it is made that is in carnem sanguinem Christi Lib. 4 dist 11. Into the bodie and blood of Christ as Lumbard some where seemeth to tell vs then is it not both a sacrament and the true bodie and blood of Christ too but only one of them namely id quod facta est that whereinto it is changed and here you may smell Transubstantiation though it were not yet deuised but it stunke so that Lumbard himselfe could hardly abide it Ibid. for thus hee writes Si quaeritur qualis sit illa conuersio an formalis an substantialis vel alterius generis definire non sufficio If a man aske what manner of conuersion it is whether formall or substantiall or of some other kind I am not able to determine it Which is as much to say as I cannot tell whether the substance of bread be changed into the bodie of Christ or no for graunt me this antecedent substantia panis mutatur the substance of bread is changed the conclusion wil follow of necessitie ergo est substantialis mutatio a substantiall change so he that tels me that he cannot define whether the change of bread into flesh and wine into blood be substantiall tels me withall that he cannot define whether the substance of bread and wine be changed into the body and blood of Christ These be the colours and shewes and accidents that haue bewitched a great part of the world and these be the glosses and interpretations that haue caused men to runne mad and at length to sleepe in their owne excrements but if you looke into the ages before Berengarius you shall find such as did write openly against these Popish accidents and formes without subiect and against all vntoward glosses in defence of the sacramentarie heresie as heretickes now call it without all controlement or contradiction which is a maine euidence to perswade that these reall conuersions and transmutations which be defended so stoutly and peremptorily in Poperie are not Catholicke but hereticall Iohn Scotus a learned man venerable Beds scholler taught the same doctrine wee hold at this day Iohan. Scotus almost two hundred yeeres before Berengarius so did Bertram Bertram a famous man in his time as appeareth by his booke De corpore sanguine Dei written at the request of Charles the Great and Doctor Tonstall witnesseth Lib. 1. de Sacr. Euchar. that before Transubstantiation was concluded in the Counsell of Lateran it was lawfull for euerie man freely to thinke of it as he thought good and if this euidence be not stronge inough to carrie away the matter then would I faine learne how they dare stand against Pope Gelasius that tels them plainely that the substance and nature of bread and wine remaineth still Gelas contr Eutych Non desinit esse substantia panis natura vini There ceaseth not to bee the substance of bread and nature of wine They tell vs verie demurely that by vertue of Christs prayer Luk. 22 32. the Popes faith cannot faile and that hee is to confirme his brethren yet herein they make Gelasius faith to faile and vtterly refuse to bee confirmed by him yet was it not Gelasius owne priuate opinion De Sacram. li. 4. cap. 4. Dialog 1 2 Ambrose saith of the consecrated bread and wine Sunt quae erant in aliud commutantur They are the same they were and are changed into another thing Theodoret Signa mystica post sanctificationem non recedunt à natura sua manent enim in priori substantia figura forma The mysticall signes after sanctification do not depart from their owne nature for they remaine in their former substance figure and forme Chrysostome Ad Caesarium in Math. hom 15. Panis sanctificatus dignus est dominici corporis appellatione etsi natura panis in illo remanserit The sanctified bread is worthy the name of the Lords bodie although the nature of bread remaine in it Origen Ille cibus qui sanctificatur per verbum Dei per obsecrationem iuxta id quod habet materiale in ventrem abit in secessum encitur That meat which is sanctified by the word of God and by prayer according to that which is materiall in it goeth into the bellie and is cast out into the draught And if all these authorities be reiected yee shall they neuer bee able to auoide the words of our Sauiour Christ who after the ministration of the Sacrament in both kindes concludeth after this maner I say vnto you Math. 26 29. Mark 14 25. I will drinke no more of this fruit of the vine till I drinke it new in the Kingdome of God vnlesse they can make men beleeue that blood may be the fruit of a Vine Let vs now returne to the examination of the ancient Father which our Papist imagineth to bee raysed from the dead What if hee should say saith he that the verie bodie of Christ is present in the Sacrament in forme of bread Many then say I hee should lye for Chrysostome saith In oper imper in Math. hom 11. In vasis sanctificatis non est ipsum corpus Christi sed mysterium corporis eius continetur In the sanctified vessels is contained not the verie bodie of Christ but the mysterie of his bodie But forasmuch as it is heere confessed that if this Doctor raised from the dead should answere that the bread is called the bodie of Christ in a figuratiue sense and that in Sacraments the signe is many times called by the name of the thing signified he doth cleerely in so answering determine the controuersie on the Protestants side what should wee labour further it being too too manifest that the Fathers doe answere so in their Bookes extant at this day and that in as plaine manner as can be wished Qui seipsum vitem appellauit Dialog
weakenesse shall sooth himselfe with an ouer-weening conceit of the excellencie of his Priest-hood and so neglect the remedie that God hath appointed how can that man promise to himselfe any assistance from God to keepe him from falling Thus much briefly of euerie point of Doctrine and euery testimonie thereto belonging whereof you may gather that this second wound is easily healed I hope the disagreement that was between Paul and Barnabas doth not prooue them to be of two Churches or either the one or the other to be a damned hereticke The ancient Fathers were men and might erre and did erre many of them together euen whole Councels as it is apparant to the world yet God forbid that therefore wee should count them Heretickes and throw them ouer-boord out of the Arke of Gods Church No friend Papist though wee discent from them in some points of doctrine as they likewise discented from such as were before them yet all of vs hold one foundation and it was no part of their beleefe that such as held not these points were out of the Church neither is it any part of our beleefe Ad Fortunatianum Epist 111. that such as held them were damned Heretickes Austine saith Catholicorum laudatorum hominum disputationes velut scripturas Canonicas habere non debemus vt nobis non liceat saluae honorificentiae quae illis debetur hominibus aliquid in eorum scriptis improbare atque respuere We ought not to haue the same in regard the discourses of Catholicke and laudable men as the canonicall scriptures that we may not sauing that honour which is due to those men disallow and refuse something in their writings And when Ierome had alleaged the authoritie of sixe or seuen Fathers against Austine Epist 19. in defence of Peters hypocrisie Austine is bold to answere him thus Solis eis scripturarum libris qui iam Canonici appellantur didici hunc timorem honoremque deferre vt nullum eorum authorem scribendo aliquid errasse firmissimè credam Alios autem italego vt quantalibet sanctitate doctrinaque praepalleant non ideo verum putem quia ipsi ita senserunt sed quia per illos authores canonicos vel probobabili ratione quòd à vero non abhorreat persuadere potuerūt I haue learned to giue this reuerence and honour only to those bookes of the holy scriptures which are now called Canonicall to beleeue assuredly that no authour of them did erre in writing any thing But others I read so that of how great learning or holinesse soeuer they be I do not therefore thinke a thing to be true because they thought so but because they were able to perswade it by those Canonicall authors or by some probable reason agreeing with the truth The Dialogue Sectio XXIII PRo The Doctors did erre grosly in many things as you must of force cōfesse therfore a feeble foundation are they to build our saluation vpon Austine wrote his Retractations in the doctrin of purgatorie which you labor so seriously to build vpon his authoritie he was so a These places are too hot for our Papist to handle doubtfull and wauering that sometime he writeth thereof doubtfully as fieri potest it may be that there is such a thing forsitan ita est peraduentute it is so sometime he seemeth to affirme it and sometime he flatly denieth it Irenaeus held that the soules of the righteous should remaine in a place appointed for them of God and not enter into heauen before the generall resurrection Tertullian wrote a booke of the vnlawfulnesse of second marriages Hilarie held that Christ did walke vpon the water by the nature of his body Thus could I run ouer all the Fathers and find in them many such points of doctrine which you doe no lesse detest then we doe those things which you doe labour to build vpon their authoritie Now tell me why doe we exclude the Fathers out of our Church by refusing some of their opinions more than you doe exclude them out your Church by refusing of other some or why is it not as free for vs to reiect their authoritie in the one as it is for you to reiect it in the other or why may not I argue as you doe against vs that because these doctors did hold these opinions which I haue set downe that therefore the vniuersall Church in their time did imbrace the same or if that their said opinions had bene erroneous that some men or other would haue impugned thē by writing Pap. Your answere doth consist on diuers points b VVhere or whē here I am sure you do not all which I wil prosecute particularly and in order first therefore I must not denie that the doctors were men and that they were not without their blemishes and errors c VVe must d sappoint you of your hope Looke the answere hoping that you will also confesse that they were such men as for their great learning and piety haue euer bene admired and had in high reuerence of all posteritie and accepted for the principall workemen in the building of Gods spirituall Temple next vnto the Apostles of Christ To erre is incident to mans frailtie and to d As you papists doe persist in an errour is brutish but to e As you papists cannot abide to doe acknowledge and recant an errour is the worke of the holy Ghost and a great argument of an humble and weake spirit and therefore if you seeke to detract from Saint Austines doctrine by abraiding him with his Retractations you doe but séeke to quench the flaming fire with powring oyle vpon it but if you doe f VVe insinuate that euery thing is not Gospel that S. Austine writes infinuate by alleaging of his Retractations that he hath retracted any thing by me alleaged against you out of his workes the booke is extant let the iudge be brought foorth your next allegation whereby you seeke to extenuate Saint Austines authoritie is the instabilitie of his g His doctrine touching purgatorie but now simply as you insinuate doctrine for one while say you he affirmeth another he denieth another he doubteth it were an hard matter for you to perswade any man to credit you héerein that hath read how famous Saint Austine was for his great learning amongst the Gentiles before the conuersion and how after his conuersion hée hath bene euer held for the most learned doctor and subtile disputer that euer flourished in the Church for who so h Beleeue not vs but your owne eyes look and peruse the places beleeueth you herein must also beléeue therewithall that S. Austine had neither learning wit nor regard of his repuputation but let vs admit that such foule blots as you do pretend had dropped from his pen is it not like think you that in his i VVhat if he were not resolued when he wrote his Retractatiōs how then Retractations they should haue bin discouered and
the other why we doe not exclude them out of our Church as you haue excluded them out of yours Pro. You shall find in the Fathers as many places against those points of doctrine as you shall find for them and besides that many bookes fathered vpon the fathers are bastards Pa. It is a great argument of a y It will at length pull the crowne from your Popes head as desperate as you make it desperate cause when we sée the authoritie of any authenticke writer so plaine and direct against vs as it cannot be auoyded by any glosse or colourable interpretation to seeke to euade by carping at contrarietie in the same writer and in so doing wée shall shew our selues more desirous to obscure a truth than to bring it to light touching your last obiection I am content vpon any reasonable cause of challenge to forbeare to vouch any booke that you shall suspect of bastardy Thus haue I answered all your cauils and calumniations obiected against the auncient doctors which is your last refuge for when you cannot tell how by some cunning interpretation or glosse to vnloose the knot your manner is to cut it in sunder and to breake away The Answere WEe are come now to a great deale of void talke of the errors of the fathers and doctors and Austines retracting and wauering in the doctrine of purgatorie The first is confessed not simply but vnder hope that wee will also confesse that the doctors were not onely admired for their learning pietie but accepted also for the principall workemen next vnto the Apostles which cannot be confessed without iniurie to the Euangelists and other that had extraordinary graces and power from aboue a long time after the Apostles Iren. lib. 2. 28. lib. 5. 1. Eusebius histo eccles lib. 3. 34 lib. 5. 7. 9. as appeareth in Irenaeus and Eusebius besides that we may not thinke a few fathers whose writings remaine extant to be excellenter workemen than a thousand other whose writings are lost and their names forgotten in the world These few doctors whose bookes wee haue were worthy men yet one more worthy than another and no one of them nor all of them together to be preferred to those that were before them And heere let it be obserued that Tertullian as he is a Montanist is set down for one of of these admirable doctors of the Church for he erred not in the case of second marriages while he was a Catholicke doctor but when he was an hereticke and fallen from the Church nay see further how intollerably hee defaceth the fathers when he goeth about to magnifie for if they looke vpon them to handle high mysteries beyond their capacitie and were caried in heat against heresie to the contrary extreame verily their learning and piety may well be doubted of and if they could not see the trueth vnlesse it were called into question determined by the Church there is no great reason why they should be so highly admired and had in reuerence What man why say you so the doctors had their errors and imperfections no otherwise then Saint Peter had whom Saint Paul withstood to his face and will you not admire and reuerence Saint Peter Yes sir that I will for wee speake not here of errors in liuing which neuer any but Christ was free from but errors in writing whereof Saint Peter was neuer guiltie and therefore bethinke you how this suspicious and irreuerend calling of Saint Peters credite into question to cloake the fathers errours withall can be the part of a good Catholicke we beleeue Saint Peter neuer erred in any thing he hath written but you shal hardly driue vs with all your wharting to beleeue the like of our new writers or your old doctors much lesse the autors of prophane Histories but why keepes this man all this doe trow ye would he haue vs pinne our religion vpon the sleeues of the doctors and ciuill Historiographers too will nothing else please him Yes hee tels you he will be content if you will credit an vniforme consent and harmonie of diuers doctors producing themselues for eye witnesses and a thousand other like witnesses with them well when I heare those thousand other speake then he shall haue my answere In the meane while haue we commended to him and tell him that I cannot beleeue a million of thousands when they say nothing and heere I beseech you note how his wit ebbes and his tongue flowes beyond the bankes of all possibilitie they write saith he that praying and sacrificing for the dead was vniuersally obserued in all Churches they were present themselues and hard and saw it done and thousands moe with them c. Quid audio Did they heare and see it done in all Churches vniuersally this is no lie my Lord and that 's all that I will say to it Now touching Austine we so much the more admire him in that he retracted his former errors as many as hee could well-obserue in his owne workes neither doe wee doubt but that he would haue retracted more if he had liued longer could haue considered deliberately of all that hee had written howbeit he wrote diuers bookes after his retractations neither could he so narrowly looke into euery corner of his workes but that many things worthy to be retracted slipt through his fingers to be short his retractations do euidently shew that as he was a good and an honest minded man so he altered in opinion as hee grew in yeeres and was better instructed by long experience and trauell in diuinitie and so consequently that he is so farre forth to bee receiued as he buildeth vpon the foundation of the canonicall scripture such building will stand without retracting all other doctrine as it begins in man so man may end it neither can it stand any longer than man listeth to vphold it This wauering in the matter of Purgatorie our Papist denieth impudently cryeth in an agony shew me where Saint Austine doth deny purgatorie as I haue shewed you he hath affirmed it alas he hath shewed Austines affirmation out of the counterfeit sermons and Homilies neuer either written or preached by Saint Austine which is a most simple kind of shewing but why doth he aske where Austine denieth purgatorie and neuer asketh one word where he doubteth of it These be fine fellowes that aske after such points as they thinke they can hold talke of and can suffer other things to passe by as if they saw him not Howbeit our Protestant heere cites a place out of Austines Sermons De verbis Apostoli which is little to the purpose Serm. 4. yet notwithstanding where our Papist answereth that he knoweth no third place for infants but either heauen or hell what doth he else but disclaime his limbus puerorum which Pope Innocent the third Cap. maiores extra de bapt and most of the schoolemen place aboue purgatorie and will needs haue it to be