of purgatory as well as hell or heaven both contrition and pennance both God and his blessed retinu of Saints and Angels both preaching and Sacrificing shrins altars unctions seaven Sacraments vows Pilgrimages and all whatsoever things the Catholik now beleeves or professes even to the least drop of holy water And if that faith that hath the vertu and power to trample down idolatry to chase away paganisme and triumph over all the power of darknesse be not divine if this good tidings of truth benot the vertue of God and power of God wch is it From this power of converting nations the Prophets of old magnified the word and Gospell of the Messias and S. Paul upon that account cals it the vertu and power of God and yet this efficacy is onely proper and peculiar to the Catholik Religion and non els I shall onely at this time give some generall conjectures in a familiar discours wherby we may be moved to beleeve wt is indeed most cerainly true that popery is no addition of mans at least suspect that the report our reformers give of it sounds like a slander leaving solider and more particular demonstrations for som other time LA. It will not displeas us to hear you speak so that after all is done you will follow our counsell KN. I shall not be obstinat But give me leave dear Lady fully to vent my thoughts For I conceive that a man is not capabl of better counsell till he hath utterly discovered all whatever things detaind him afortime in his sormer purpos wthout any reservation at all For even small reliques of former courses lurking in the mind undiscoverd will still be egging him on to thos waies again after he hath embraced better counsell repine against the advice he hath taken as ruinous and prejudiciall although it were in it self very behoofesull and good So that the mind runs a hasard of lasting disquiet wch enters upon a new cours before the old be totally dislikt VIC I out wth is Sr Harry our wth it fully for so it is written Counsell in the heart of a man is like deep water but a man of understanding will draw it out Prov. 20. MIN. Well Sr let not my argument be forgot wher by I prooud that popery was a human art and therfore in mans power to reform nay t is comendable to cashere falsities KN. You said indeed so but prooud it not not was it ever prooud yet by any tho it be in all mens mouths nor ever will be so long as the world lasts The misery is Sr that men of your opinion that is to say not catholik are all very little verst in our catholik authors especially such as be scholasticall subtile and voluminous love and care I mean wife and children haply not permitting such brain-consuming studies so that when we come to discours wch you t is as equally hard to perswad you as the vulgar of the parish being all of you equally ignorant of the Churches waies and doctrin And yet popery a thing indeed unknown to you must be jeerd at spoke against preacht against and haply writ against too by som pert Gentlman that has never so much as heard a whol cours of philosophy in his life for a whol cours either of philosophy or divinity is a thing now a daies altogether unknown in both our universities and that wth so many impertinencies lies and slanders such vanity fraud and cosenage such insulting babl wresting of Scriptur texts and falsifying of authors that my heart has even startld within me to behold this shamles dealing You say that all your reformations are but the taking away from the purity of Gospell the vain superstructurs of human superstitions commonly cald popery This you say becaus other reformers said so before you taking it one from another since Luthers time and your child will say it from you and so will every bastard in the parish Nor does it avail us any thing by all manner of proofs to assert the divinity and truth of our doctrin Altho you will not read or cannot haply understand those sublim orthodox divins that would fully inform your judgement in this point and convince you of an errour no less notorious than dangerous Yet me thinks there be many things obvious and familiar might render you wary and suspitious of danger in this your asserion wch concerns no les than your eternal salvation As first that you never examend it you know you did not I appeal to your own conscience The Church hath ever beene in possession of this her doctrin and cannot possibly be dispossest but by some evident demonstration wch I am sure the power of man and angel can never effect if you insist on any other autority as sacred scripturs or councells they are as sure hers as any of your proper goods is your own Nor is ther I am confident any one text I say not any one single text of Scriptur if it be taken together wth the whole body scope and intention of the book whence t is drawn that shall urg or proov any thing for any Reformation against the Church this I am able to maintain against the wholl world And yet you ar so far from considering or examining any of thes things that you conclude upon bare hearsay or report wthout either autority or demonstrative reason against the doctrin of the Church wherof she hath been time out of mind in possession and all this slighnes is used in a matter of the highest concernment in the world as if the talk wer onely de lana Caprina Me thinks it should fright you to think that if your assertion should be fals as for aught you know it is then ar you certainly guilty of the accursed sacriledg of diminishing from the word and will of God Again you know and do acknowledg that you have substracted not only some part but the most and greatest parts of that religion was found planted in the land in Harry the eights daies Pray tell me that whol mass or body of practicall doctrin that is now cut off in this year 1655 was it known in King Charls James or Queen Elisabeths days to have been all of it popish additions To this I am sure peopl of severall reformations will give severall answers Independency the last and purest reformation will affirm it but Protestancie the first and oldest apostasy will deny it nor will the Protestant indure that his children should judg him as he condemnd his mother Church or reform his fallibility as he rebeld against the infallibility of his parent And yet the Independent proceeds consequently to those very principles wch the protestant laid for his own revolt namely the fallibility of men the solesufficiency of scripturs and the Spirit of God therin assisting his elect to the discovery of truth Nor can the Independent be blamed for any thing but for striking thes principls further hom than the amphibian protestant did This
places are found ther is either an entire Altar stone or some remnants or signes of it This sacred Synaxy was the only thing that brought Christians together in times of hottest persecution at wch most of our Christian Martirs were taken And yet notwthstanding others could not forbear for that they could not have that comfort any other way nor yet were they able to live wthout it As appears in the Acts and processe of our ancient Martirs particularly the proconsulary Acts of S. Saturnin Wher we read that when the pagan emperours had given a comand that no Christian should dare to be present any more at their Mass wch the Christians at that time called their Dominicum the martirs replied sine Dominico esse non possumus we cannot live wthout Mass And therfore S. Saturnin being askt by Analin the proconsul whether he had been at Mass he answered Christianus sum as if he had said being as I am a Christian I cannot do otherwise t is Christianity t is my very life and being If all the Religion of those ancient Christians had been onely a little bearing or reading and their onely work to beleev in Christ they had never needed to expose their lives for that for Reformers do not think themselvs bound under sin to hear any body sith they beleev already wch is all that is necessary to salvation We cannot live wthout absolution and Mass they may live wthout a pratling preacher wch most of them do but censur and none of them be advanced by him either in their faith or good works onely their ear is somtime tickled a little wth a witty actour in the pulpet as there be indeed som of them so ingenious that t is as much pleasur to hear them speak as Ben. Iohnsons Catilin or Sejanus By all this discours I would infer that hearing or preaching the word is not the sole act of Christian Religion nor yet the main and principal act therof sith of its own natur it is but a preparativ and disposition to some further work and the disposition is ever les noble than the form it disposes unto And if it dispos unto no other thing as Reformers preaching does not then is in no Religion at all but a meer mockery This was my first thesis My other was that a man may all his life time either read or hear the word and yet at length be undon both for his sin and infidelity if in any one thing he misbeleev or fail LA. If we let you alone Sr Harry you wil not com to a period wthin your time the glas is run KN. I will dispatch in a word VIC Do so Sr Harry for it is written In a multitud of Words ther wants not sin but be that refrains his lips is wise Prov. IC KN. That any one errour in faith suffices for destruction altho a man otherwise beleev the story of Gospel is apparent in reason For all the Articles of faith being received upon one and the same motiv wch is the verity of the revealer the formal deniall of any one must needs be a vertuall deniall of all and consequently the destruction of faith wthout wch no man can be saved Wherfor S. Paul is bold to condemn Hymeneus Philetus known Christians for one onely errour Shun saith he prophane and vain bablings for they wil increas unto more ungodlines And their word wil eat as doth a canker of whom is Hymeneus and Philetus who have erred from the truth saying that the resurrection is past already overthrow the faith of some 2. Tim. 2.16 By this example we see that one errour overthrowes faith And yet t is worth noting too that the errour those two are condemned for is not any thing formally opposit to Scriptur for Christ told his disciples of a resurrection to come but did not say that in Hymeneus his time it was not past but their mistake and misdemeanour was merely against the judgment of the church whose Priests expounding Scriptur told them that the resurrection was not then past and yet they would not be quiet notwthstanding nor resign their judgment Another like president we have in his other Epistle wher he saith The younger widdows refuse for when they begin to wax wanton against Christ they will marry having damnation becaus they have cast of their first faith 1. Tim. 5.11 Tho marriage be in it self lawfull yet undertaken against the churches autority as it is it self a mortal sin so is it a casting off and a destruction of all faith And yet those widdows were beleevers and fil devotes too such as lookt to the dressing of their churches and Altars washing of their sacred vestments arâ—â— other works of charity As for mortall sin that any one will ruin the soul even of a beleever appears by the tenour of the whole new Testament especially of S. Pauls Epistles wherin he dehorts the Christians in Rome Corinth Ephesus and others from sin in generall each mortall sin in particular because the wager of sin is death neither adulterers theeues or murderers shall ever enter into the Kingdom of God of Christ Wch exhortatioÌ„ had been of no valiew and nothing to the purpose if sin had been nothing prejudiciall to one that beleeveth By this account a man may both hear read Scriptur all his life time and yet be condemnd at length both for sin and infidelity if he do not adhere closely to all truths revealed by the church and use all Sacraments and helps of salvation she propounds LA. This point requires further discussion than we have now time for And my servant hath put me in mind that dinner is brought up Wherfor break of and le ts go in MIN. Let 's in le ts in to the great work where we shall meet wth an abstract of Metaphysiks In vino veritas in pane unitas in carne bonitas Nay ther 's divinity Sacraments too Le ts in good Sr Harry on my conscience I have such a gaping appetite I could swallow a camell KN. Me thinks Dr we ar at a good feast already according to those sacred words My meat is to do the will of him that sent me and to finish his work Ioh. 4. MIN. After two or three cups of wine Sr Harry I le repeat over all this discours of yours and refute it to the full Foecundi calices It was the first best miracle Christ ever did to turn water into wine I would he had turnd a little more of it VIC O Husband sweet wine and fair women are seldom found in the same countrey Content your self you had better have me wth a pot of your ale than a french face wth a whole Butt of claret Go to now MIN. That 's right too But did you never hear wt the Scotch-man said to King James when he askt him wch Byshoprick he would have Bath or Wells Marry beath beath quoth the Scotch-man The King for the conceit
5. At least Catholik tradition wch is the only interpreter of Scriptur and judg of all controversies hath cast it VII That all shall be equall in glory was the paradox of Jovinian a Roman monk in the time of Pape Damasus and Siricius who leaving his profession ran himself into many heresies this opinion is no other for there is one clarity of the Sun another brightness of the moon another of the Stars as one star differs from another in glory so also shall be the resurrection of the dead Cor. 15. Jerom wrote two books against Jovinian and this opinion is disabled by the autority of the councell of Theles in Africa under Pape Siricius of Florence under Pape Eugenius the fourth VIC You might Sr Harry have named my husband me for many of these opiniōs wthout troubling your self wth such ūcouth names for we hold them too and so long as God gives us life and health shall do so stil according as it is written Hold that fast wch thou hast Rev. 3.11 Nay I hold others too wch you now mentiond though I never heard of them before according as it is written We beseech you brethren that ye increass more and more 1 Thess 4. LA. Pray S. Harry speak somthing concerning the Sacraments and what devises have been about them KN. Madam I am now come to it I. the hereticks called Cathari denied all Sacraments the Armenians and long after them Martin Luther Father of the Protestants admitted some according to their owne liking but denied that any had intrinsecall vertue to confer grace But the councell of Trent under Pape Paule the third sesse 7. both defined the Sacraments to be seaven in number according to the Catholik tradition and to confer grace ex opere operato II. That sacred things and spirituall gifts might be purchased wth money was the errour of Simon Magus and the action from him termed Simony condemnd in the 11 Toletan councell c. 8. decret and before by S. Peter himself Non est tibi pars Act. 8. III. Luther taught that in no Sacrament was imprinted any character contrary to the churches doctrine wch teacheth such a seal to be made in baptism confirmation and holy orders confirmd by the councell of Carthage Florence and Trent under Paul the third Sess 7. can 9. In particular concerning Baptism there have been many errours I. Seleucus and Hermias Galatians baptised not in water but fire But the councell of Florence under Eugenius the fourth defined water to be the naturall matter of Baptism II. The Marcites disciples of one Marcus a magician about the Apostles time changed the form of Baptism doing it In the name of the unknown Father of all things and in truth the Mother of all and in him who descended upon Jesus For they held that God preacht in the old law was not the Father of Christ becaus he was unknown The Cataphygians and Paulianists also did not baptise in the name of the Trinity as Catholikes do according to comand of Gospell Baptiseing them in the name of the Father Son and holy Ghost Mat. 28. III. The said Cataphygians baptised the dead They had their name from the Province of Phrygia whence they came their leader was Montanus who called himselfe the Paraclet and Prisca Maximilla his two Prophetesses The Marcionists did the same who finding any to dye unbaptised they put a living man under the hers of the dead and asked him as if he were the dead man if he desired to be baptised answering yea they baptised him for the dead wch thing they said S. Paul himself did practise 1. Cor. 15. although Marcion their leader is not read to have don any such thing but few hereticks content themselvs wth the errours of their leaders Marcion himself was in the time of Antoninus Pius his countrey Pontus a great stoick Philosopher and being converted to Christian faith he followed the dogmes of Cerdon intermingling many Philosophicall things wth his Christian religion and coming to Rome he seduced many Catholiks where meeting wth S. Polycarp and asking him if he knew him I know quoth S. Polycarp and do acknowledge the eldest son of Satan But against this errour both of the Marcionits and Cataphygias is the definition of the third conncell of Carthage where t is declared that neither the Eucharist nor baptism may be given to the dead IV. The Psallians and Euchitae attributed no vertue at all to Baptism but made all sins to be rased onely by Prayer so likewise the Messalians and Enthusiasts The Manichees also thought that baptism exhibited in water was worth nothing The Albanenses Albigenses likewise rejected baptisme the Armenians took from the Sacraments all power of conferring grace Against this heresy is the decre of the councell of Florence under Eugenius the fourth V. Petrus de Bruis a Frenchman of Narbona who was afterwards burnt in the Town of S. Giles said and taught that baptism was of no avail to Infants that have not the use of reason After him one Henricus bore his Standard from whom the followers of the heresy were called Henricians and Brusians After four hundred years the Anabaptists raised up the heresy again But S. Denis the Areopagite witnesses that children were baptised in the Apostles time c. ult Eccl. Hier. And S. Cyprian two hundred years after and S. Austin after him testify that it was done in their days And the Catholik practise is confirmd by the councell of Lateran under Pope Innocent the third by the councel of Vienna under Clement the fift and the councell of Trent under Paul the third in two Sessions 5. Sess c. 4. 7. Sess can 19. VI. The Donatists rebaptised such as came over to their side beleeving that such as came to the true church was to be baptised again But the first councell of Carthage c. 1 decret as also the councell of Vienna under Pape Clement the fifth and the councell of Florence under Eugenius the fourth defined this opinion as erroneous S. Cyprian and other Byshops of Africa held also that hereticks coming to the Catholik church were to be rebaptised But this they did not defend against the church wth pertinacy as hereticks did but disputed it as a probable opinion not then in their dayes defined and happly upon suspition that hereticks used not the right form and matter One Baltasar a Dutchman of late held morover that all people are to be baptised again when they come to years of discretion becaus he thought the baptism of infants were of no valiew But faith teaches there is but one Baptism Eph. 4. as ther is but one death of Christ wch it figureth Do ye not know that so many as are baptised unto Christ are baptised to his death Rom. 6.3 VII The Armenians taught that baptism ought to be conferred wth the Eucharist and that none can be validly baptised unless he be anointed wth chrism Claudius Taurinensis held baptism without the sign of the