should place the Emperor by himself in respect of his temporalities he should grant two beginnings which were Heresie In good Faith Sir I cannot think otherwise but if these men say true your Catholic Princes let them keep as fair as they will with the Pope are all Heretics in their hearts And then what follows Hark what a Cardinal and which I grieve an English man hath publisht to the World Card. Allen against the execution of justice p. 87. The Cannon Laws says he being authentical in the lawful Tribunals of the Christian World do make all Heretics not only after they be namely and particularly denounced but by the Law it self ipso facto as soon as they be Heretics are de jure excommunicated for the same to be depriv'd of their Dominions Philopater p. 154. Another tells us The whole School of Divines and Canonists do hold and that 't is certain and of Faith that any Christian Prince whatsoever if he shall manifestly deflect from the Catholic Religion and endeavour to draw others from the same does presently fall from all power and dignity by the very force of human and divine Law and that also before any Sentence of the supreme Pastor or Judge denounced against him and that his Subjects whatsoever are free from all Obligation of that Oath which they had taken for their Allegeance to him as their lawful Prince and that they may and ought if they have forces drive out such a man as an Apostate or Heretic and a Backslider from the Lord and Christ and an enemy to the Commonwealth from all Dominion over Christians lest he infect others or by his example or command avert others from the faith and that this certain definite and undoubted opinion of the best learned men is wholly agreeable and consonant to the Apostolical doctrine Upon these grounds it was publickly maintain'd that Henry the third of France was lawfully murthered before any sentence of excommunication past against him because though in hidden crimes formalities be requir'd yet evidens notitia facti sententiae locum tenet non percipit formam publicus dolor And that he had long liv'd as an excommunicate person de facto de justa abdic Hen. 3. l 4. c. 2 though the law had not past sentence upon him for favouring Heretics for Simony for entring into league with Hereticks the Queen of England and King of Navar for seizing the goods of the Church without the Popes privity and other offences against the Bulla Caenae Upon these grounds I have seen that execrable Villain Chastel who attempted upon Henry the Fourth what Ravillac after performed defended by a public Apology and I see no attempt can be so barbarous and inhumane which may not be defended by them So that by your favour your Catholic Princes are not secure Quiet they may be but never safe and for their quietness they may thank the lucky conjuncture of those stars which have influence upon the times of their government and restrain the malignity of these Doctrines Otherwise if they be not very cunning in school subtilties they may chance forfeit their Kingdoms and all their power per triccum de lege without ever knowing when or how live all their life time in the erroneous belief that they are very Kings and those who obey them their very Subjects and be deceiv'd all the while But be it as it will this answer which would justifie the innocence of these doctrines by the security of Catholic Princes comes pitifully off when instead of securing it takes them quite away which is a fine kind of security for it is plainly a much easier task to maintain by these doctrines that there is never a true Prince in the Christian world no not in those whom you call Catholics than it is to maintain the doctrines And yet when all is done 't is nothing to purpose neither For our Prince and People are of the number of those whom your Church takes for Heretics and can expect no other treatment from you than what you maintain belongs to Heresie Wherefore however your Catholic Princes satisfie themselves I neither see how he can be satisfied of the fidelity of such of his Subjects as approve of these opinions nor with what face they can pretend security and protection from him Pray think of this while I pass to what I put for a second answer and what I have sometimes heard alledged These opinions will you say are moot-cases probably disputed amongst private men in which the Church is neither engaged nor concerned Pray God this Church be not as slippery a word as either Heresie or Popery These men who thus magnifie the Pope certainly are not of our Church and I believe Presbyterians and Fanaticks of all sorts will disown them too so that even for pitty and not to make Infidels of them you must needs take them into yours But they who speak so kindly of the Pope need not fear disowning We see they are both acknowledged and esteemed and are all Capita alta ferentes Now 't is strange your Church should be unconcern'd in men whom you account Orthodox and learned and whose books come out with the approbation of those whom your Church commissionates for that purpose Me-things the Act of her Officers acting by her Authority should be taken for the Act of the Church Unless you will have the Pope pass for one of those careless Princes who deserve to be deposed for negligence and be ignorant that his Officers abuse their trust and licence unsound doctrines and this at Rome it self where a body would think sufficient care is taken that nothing pass which is not esteemed Orthodox Bring me a Book printed at Rome wherein the contrary doctrine is maintain'd and I will acknowledge there is some sense in this answer In the mean time let me give you a few instances and those at home by which it may appear the Pope is so far from ignorant and unconcern'd in these positions that he approves and countenances them and that both â—hotly and constantly In the reign of King James upon the occasion of the execrable Powder Treason the Oath of Allegeance was enacted by the pious wisdom of the Parliament to secure his Majesty and Successors from the like attempts for the future The Superior of the Catholic Clergy at that time was one Blackwell He after much and long debate of the matter with his fellow Priests at last resolved the Oath according to the plain and common sense of the words might with a safe conscience be taken by the Catholics and afterwards both took it himself and by his admonitions to Clergy and Laity recommended it to them as a thing both lawful and fitting The greatest part of the Clergy who repair'd to London upon that occasion followed the resolution of their Superior and had the Pope been either a little more ignorant or a little more negligent I think it had been better for you
so little subtilty that every body does the like almost in every occasion There remains only to examine upon what Principle those who assert these errors proceed whether upon Faith or some other Faith is a reliance upon some Authority and in our case the Authority of Christ who alone is acknowledged the Author and Revealer of all which we are to believe Wherefore of any point in question it must either be pretended that it was revealed by Christ or it cannot be pretended that it belongs to Faith and if any maintain it upon other grounds so far he acts not as a believer but as otherwise qualified Now there are in the world two principal ways by which claim is made to the Authority of Christ for that which we maintain is Faith and that wherein we do not engage his Authority neither of us say is Faith or that they act as faithful who upon reason or experiment for example maintain any thing The World hopes from the learned industry of the Royal Society the sight of many truths yet hidden from her but all their endeavours can never make Faith of them nor concern your Church in them as considerable members of it as some of them are For they go not your Church-way of Faith They look not into Scripture but Experiments and act as Learned not as Church-men What they shall discover to the World will be revealed not by Christ but by them and if any believe them they will have no Christian but Society-Faith Such is the case of our Church Tradition in her known method by which she pretends to the Authority of Christ If any will run upon their own heads and discourse and maintain things and never look into her Rule She can be no more concerned in their proceedings than the Church of England in those of Gresham Colledge For since Faith is that by which she is a Church and Tradition that by which she comes to Faith people must engage Faith if they will engage the Church and Tradition if they will engage her Faith Wherefore whoever goes about to prove any thing otherwise than by Tradition uses not the method to come to Faith I mean the method approved by our Church and this conclusion whether true or false neither reaches Faith nor aims at it and by consequence cannot belong to the Church or Congregation of the Faithful Now reflect a little upon your Authors and see if they go this way to work and the first thing is the consent of the present Age for Tradition signifying the consent of all Ages 't is a madness to pretend it for that which is not believed so much as by the present Do they or can they even offer at this while they see themselves contradicted by men as learned and farr more numerous While all the Universities of a great Kingdom disapprove and condemn their Doctrine and their Books are burnt in the face of the World by public Justice and the men who do this acknowledged good Catholics all the while Do they or can they pretend the consent of former Ages while they know all Antiquity agrees that for many Ages Popes were so Supreme in Spirituals that in Temporals they were Subjects Such they acknowledged themselves and as such the Emperours treated them When and how and upon what occasion they came to be temporal Princes is known to all who are knowing in History A condition by the way which he who envies them little understands or little loves the good of the Church with which 't was much worse when Popes were hindred from doing their duty by the unjust violence and oppression of powerful men amongst whom they lived Do they alledg the undoubted Testimonies of the Fathers of the Church assembled in a general Council Nothing of this appears in what you have produced The men themselves are most of yesterday All many Ages since Christ and there needs no second Argument to prove any thing that it is not Faith if it can be proved that it began in any Age since the first as these opinions plainly did But consider their Arguments They are either grounded upon some odd interpretation of Scripture as the order of Melchesedech the two Swords St Peters walking on the water and the like or else upon some deduction and reasoning as weak as the water which they mention And this methodt though per impossibile it could prove the thing true yet could never prove it to be Faith There are many things in the world which are so acknowledged to be true that they are withall acknowledged not to be Faith Was it taught by Christ Was it believed by Christians Semper ubique ab omnibus Till this appear it neither is nor can be Catholic Faith But that which I insist upon is that this method is plainly resolved into Reason and can no more engage the Church of Rome than the experimental learning of the Royal Society the Church of England The Authors you produce rely not upon the Authority of Christ testified by an uninterrupted conveyance down to us but upon the strength of their own discourses which if they be weak and fail the Church never undertook that all in her Communion should discourse strongly Neither can she herself do more then testifie of the truths delivered to her and they are such and were so delivered This testimony is all which can be expected from her as a Church speaking of what concerns us to speak of her power to make Ecclesiastical Laws and the like are no part of our case if she fail in this and either testifie that to be delivered which was not so or suppress any thing which was delivered blame her but for this that some Members in her Communion have weak Reasons or strong Passions if you blame her consider the confusion you will bring into the World which I have so much dilated before that to repeat it would be tedious here But will you have a taste of the Churches sense of these things Consider the Hymn made in the first Ages of the Church inserted since by public Authority into her solemn Office received by all the Faithful and used on the Feast of the Epiphany Non eripit mortalia qui Regna dat coelestia Can the Church which prays thus be thought to favour the deposing power Or can her sense appear more plainly than in the consent of an universal practice But let us look upon her in a Council Wickleff amongst other errors had advanced this Proposition Populares c The people may at their pleasure correct their offending Lords Con. Const Sess 8. And this amongst the rest was condemned by the Council of Constance To the same Council was offered another Article worded in this manner Quilibet Tyrannus c. Every Tyrant may and ought lawfully and meritoriously be killed by any of his Vassals or Subjects even by secret plots and subtle insinuations or flatteries notwithstanding any Oath or League made with
a condemnation without more ado Neither did they well know at first on what bottom to fix This Indirect came in afterwards As far as can be guest they thought because the Pope was Superiour over all Christians he might therefore come and all Christians any thine Since the business coming to be debated they cast about for waies to maintain it and the Indirect way pleases most though it be not yet well setled some thinking it as much too little for the Pope as others too much But whatever they think I fear both the one and the other is ruinous to the Church For neither can pretend to be believed but for some reason and this reason since it cannot be the same for which we believe other points of Faith there being manifestly no such thing as uninterrupted delivery in the case must be something else which as well as It must pretend a vertue of inducing belief And that being a Rule of Faith which has power to settle Faith here is a new Rule of Faith brought into the Church and with it all the Incertainâ—y and all the confusion blamed in the most extravagant Sect and this even by her own confession who thinks her Rule is the only means to avoid that incâ—rtainly and that confusion This Rule is manifestly discarded by a new one For she cannot with any face pretend all she teaches was delivered to her if it be pin'd upon her that she teaches what was not dâ—livered and if She lose the pretence to all she will keep it to none since it cannot appear but if she have once deserted her Rule she has don 't oftner And then farewel Church Once take away the Rule and the Church must of necessity go after She has no solid ground of Authority but the stediness of her Faith no stediness of Faith but the stediness of her Rule break that once and there is neither Authority nor Faith nor will within a while be Church left So that in good earnest I do not think the malice of all her profest enemies could â—ver do the Church so much harm as the zeal of her unwary Friends At least for my part break but the Chain once and I know no more any certain way to Heaven than the veryest Enthusiast among all those Sectaries who rove blindly for want of a sure Guide and should find my self as much at a loss That any thing must be believ'd but what was taught by Christ or that any thing can be known to be taught by him but by the constant belief and practise of intermediate ages is what a Catholic should neither say nor endure to hear for it manifestly takes away Divine from Faith and all the advantage we profess in our method above others to come to Faith leaving us as much benighted and as much to seek and as small hopes of success as we object to those whom we think stray most and are most in the dark Wherefore salvo meliori as far as my short prospect reaches To bring Deposing Faith into the Church is a ready way to depose the Church I cannot tell whether I should more wonder or grieve but I am sure I do both to see men so intent upon the maintenance of an Opinion which they have espoused that they forget the honour and safety of the Church and to observe a certain supercilious gravity with which they labour to discourse these things into Faith and Religion should so far impose upon the world that they do not discover thâ—y are quite contrary and destructive to both But no doubt there are enough who see all that is to be seen but if they be no more forward then I to say all they think they are in my conceit the wiser By the favour of your earnestness it is no commendable disposition in private men to turn Reformers on every occasion and when they see any thing amiss step presently in and make a bustle in what concerns them not Let those who Govern the world and shall severely answer for those miscarriages of which They are the cause look to their duty Ours is to live quietly and unoffensively and trust God 's Providence Your importunity has carryed me farther than I intended But you have now your will of me and know I for my part think the not-deposing doctrine is the truly Catholic doctrinâ— Did I think otherwise all your importunities and all considerations in the world besides should not perswade me to it I hope you now find I said true when I told you my thoughts of this matter were such as bâ—came a good Christian and a good Subject and afford you no occasion to change yours if you had any good of Your c. FINIS The Thirteenth and Fourteenth OF THE Controversial LETTERS OR Grand Controversie Concerning The pretended Temporal Authority of POPES over the whole Earth And the True Sovereign of KINGS within their own respective Kingdoms Between two English Gentlemen The one of the Church of England The other of the Church of Rome LONDON Printed for Henry Brome and Benjamin tooke at the Gun and at the Ship in St. Pauls Church-yard 1675. FRIEND YOU had sav'd your self and me some trouble if your last had been your first I almost despair'd of doing any good upon you and perceive that exsculpere verum out of one of your humour is one of the hardest tasks in the world But since 't is come at last I regret not my own pains and for yours it was in your power to have spar'd them But yet I have not done with you The Pope is a crafty Gentleman and has more strings to his Bow then one Shut the door never so fast it is hard to keep him out If St. Peters Keys will not open the lock He has St. Pauls sword to cut it off Not that I apprehend any great danger from downright fighting 'T is a Trick he shews as seldom as he can And he has reason for Kings overmatch him at that weapon But Justice has a sword too and that so sharp that I should be very sorry to see it in his hands Now that there may be justice without deriving it from Pasce Oves or Dabo Claves and that it may belong to him as well as others and by the same means And that he actually has heretofore and may when he please again set on foot pretensions upon this Title to part perhaps all his Majesties Dominions is something too evident to be deny'd and of too great importance to be neglected It is a thing which has long disquieted me with uneasy thoughts but I must freely avow to you I was never so sensible of the danger as since I read the Considerations of present Concernment You are so much concerned in that Book that I must needs suppose you have seen it and observ'd how much may be replyed to what you have said to me But I am for the present so intent upon what 's before that I cannot reflect
a little how the world has gone and goes with those who gratify you in this matter What was the event of that unwearied constancy which the learned Withrington shew'd in it He lost his good name his Friends all comforts of life all sweetness of society with those of his own communion and had not so much as Liberty from you but liv'd and dy'd a Prisoner Walsh succeeds him in learning in fidelity in constancy and in all likelyhood fortune He has appear'd so far in this business that I believe he thinks it not safe to appear in any part of the world where the Pope bears sway and yet for ought I know has as little security at home as abroad His Liberty and Life are at the mercy of every informer it not being in the power of any Judge before whom he shall be brought to save him from the punishment appointed for Treason Harold is another who has appeared in this cause with the same success He lives confin'd in a convent of his own order in or near Bruxels because he refuses to retract the Irish remonstrance without an express saving of fidelity to his King This by the Congregation de Propaganda at Rome was judged a captious exception and the man is by the Internuncio of Bruxels confin'd against his will and notwithstanding the permission of his own Superiors to retire elsewhere Coppinger and the rest of the regular Remonstrants in Ireland to say nothing of other and those many and grievous vexations are either actually banisht by the late Proclamation against Bishops and Regulars or live in extream danger and fear of being discovered and expos'd to the law by those who hate them for their constancy to the Remonstrance And this is the sate of all who gratify you with those testimonies of Loyalty which you are perpetually urging Time was when you objected against me that we had an unintelligible way of Government among us Permit me to say I can as little understand yours He was a wise Prince who caused the Oath of Allegiance to be made with design to distinguish the dangerous Principles which he thought concurred to the Powder Treason from others which were innocent Who can understand why those who by that Distinction are found on the right side should always be in worse condition than those who are on the wrong Did K. James or the Parliament when they establisht a Distinction by Law mean to find out the Innocent by their distinction that they might be the worse for their Innocence To impute Danger and Treason to one part and punish both and the not-dangerous and not-Traitors more For so they are though not by you This is the effect of your Distinction though sure it was never the design The Act seems made to distinguish the Treason for which you say we suffer from the Religion for which you say we do not And when all is done they are not so much as exempt from the punishment of Traitors who by this Act are exempted from the guilt of Treason Withrington was no Traitor his actions and writings clear him sufficiently Walsh is no Traitor on the contrary he has given proofs of Fidelity which few could and fewer perhaps would And yet the Law looks on him and may to day or to morrow pass on him as a Traitor Truly it is not intelligible at least to my dulness how it should be for your interest that things should be carried in this manner This I know that while they are so few will comply with you I mean where with a safe conscience they may For Hopes and Fears are the main motives which carry human nature and 't is not to be expected people should gratifie you when they have nothing to hope and more to fear than when they do not For my own part I think you very unreasonable to quarrel at me for being conceal'd and single At least I am not so unreasonable as to court any man by joyning with me to run the fate of Walsh and Withrington and will avoid it my self as long as I can I relish not their uncomfortable condition finding it uncomfortable enough to live in perpetual fear of the Laws But I declare they shall not take hold on me for Treason For I again disclaim those positions which you say are Treasonable More I could and would say to you if none saw my letters but your self But thus much I profess to all the world and besides that I am Your very humble Servant This following Quotation out of Dr. H. Ferne late Bishop of Chester should have been inserted with those other Quotations taken out of Dr. Stillingfleet c. which you have before at the end of the Protestant Gentleman's Letter pag. 7. But the Book of the said Dr. Ferne which has it came not to hand soon enough to insert it there And yet being so directly and fully to purpose I would not omit giving it here I Believe and do suppose there are some Popish Priests who in the simplicity of their hearts and out of meer Conscience of Religion do labour the propagation of it whilst others more directly are guilty of Seditious and Treasonable Practices It is my wish there could be a distinction made between the one and the other that the punishment which the Law adjudges all Priests to that are found within the Land might only fall upon them who are indeed guilty of such practices which being so frequently found in their predecessors and the State being not able to distinguish between them who are all Missionaries of Rome caused those Laws to be made for the security of Prince and State And if they that come into the Land without any Treasonable intent do suffer for it they must thank their fellows as the above-mentioned Seculars do the Jesuits whose restless attempts forced the State to forbid them all entrance into the Land under pain of Treason To conclude it is not Religion nor the Function nor any Ministerial Act belonging to it that is punished in Romish Priests but Treason and Seditious practices to which Religion Sacraments Ministery of Reconciliation and all that is reputed Holy are made to serve and all this to advance and secure the Papal Vsurpation Dr. H. Ferne in his Book entituled Certain Considerations of present Concernment touching This Reformed Church of England Printed in London 1653. Chap. 5. Paragraph 9. Pag. 169. FINIS The Fifteenth and Sixteenth OF THE CONTROVERSIAL LETTERS OR Grand Controversie Concerning The pretended Temporal Authority of POPES over the whole Earth And the True Sovereign of KINGS within their own respective Kingdoms Between two English Gentlemen The one of the Church of England The other of the Church of Rome LONDON Printed for Henry Brome at the Gun and Benjamin Tooke at the Ship in St. Paul's Church-yard 1679. FRIEND I Have got a new Flea in my Ear which you must needs pull out It is like enough my importunity may not be over-welcom and you
his well-being depends upon the well-being of the Church and the constancy of his power and greatness and whatever you envy him for Take away the Church and He is no body O Friend could that cleer sight of yours look upon things without the Spectacles of prejudice and consider the office without the impossible to be avoided faults of some persons you would peradventure wonder at the aversion you have to a thing so beneficial to Mankind that the Divine Providence has left us few more signal testimonies of his constant care over us At least for my part I cannot but find my self obliged to a grateful acknowledgment of His love to the Church as often as I consider he has appointed one whose office and duty it is to take care of her good and placed him in such circumstances that to the efficacy of vertue and a good Conscience Interest and the preservation of his own Concerns and those great ones and all the considerations which sway with men are added to make him execute this Office well A Common Father of Christendom obliged by Conscience and interest to procure the good of the whole and disabled by want of the Material Sword which is committed to Princes from doing any great harm Power disarm'd you know cannot be much mischievous is so great a good that if the wisdom and goodness of God had not provided it for us I am confident those who love Christianity would have wisht and perhaps fruitlesly endeavour'd to have set it up themselves But let us suppose the Popes as bad men as you will suppose them to design the destruction of the flock they have undertaken to feed to be careless of the place they hold in this world and the account they are to give in the next suppose them wicked sensless and mad To make the Church abandon Tradition is a thing beyond all the plenitude of His power Hopes of happiness and Fear of misery Love to posterity and the Force of Nature and Inclinations of Mankind are things too deeply imprinted to be subject to any Awes or violence But I have no intention to meddle with Controversie wherefore pray take it well that I refer you for more satisfaction if you desire it to those who do Then for the Reverence which from the natural dictate of my thoughts you find in my unheeded expressions concerning Scripture you wonder at it and I more wonder at your wonder Yours I say who if I mistake not use not to give your self blindly up to the conduct of other mens Prejudices but desire first to see Reason and then to follow it In the name of God what have Catholics ever said or done that you should fancy them to have less respect for Scripture than is due to it or than other men have We hear ill indeed as you say but alas 't is because other men speak ill Sure I am 't is we preserv'd the Scriptures for fifteen hundred years and if we had not you had not had them to have reproacht us withal You receiv'd them from us and 't is by our Attestation you know there are Books of Divine Inspiration and which they are otherwise I know not vvhere you would have had them nor how have known them If you think vve read them not and take no care to understand them examine vvell the several Expositours and see if the Protestants equal the Catholics either in Number or Learning But we keep them seal'd up from the Vulgar and this for fear those cleer lights should too plainly discover the bracks of our Doctrine I know not how charitable you think that Comment but I am sure I find it very irrational If they be against us in Latin 't is a wise piece of pollicy a deep reach of subtle craft to keep people from reading them in English as if you had not learning enough to urge them against us in Latin or we to understand you unless you spoke English But thus stands the Case whoever understands Latin needs no permission to read the Scripture and vvho does not may have it for asking provided he be not of the number of the unlearned and unstable who deprave them to their own perdition Such there were in St. Peter's daies and vve have but too much cause to fear the number is greater now and if you think that to hinder the Perdition of men be to vvant Respect for Scripture you may think as your Charity and Judgment serves you but I think vve shall endeavour to shew ours by procuring their Salvation The truth is vve do little more in that particular than the Law I think still in force obliges you to do Look into the Statute Hen. 8. and see vvith vvhat limitations the Reading of the Bible is permitted If you observe them not we indeed are more obedient to our Laws than you to yours but the Laws of both are much alike for all this vvhile numbers of you read the Scriptures and shew your respect to them in contempt of the Law vvhich is a fine kind of respect But we refuse them for the Judge of Controversies Conscious say you that they would give sentence against us Methinks men vvho impute vvant of Charity to us should be a little more vvary in making such Constructions of things But I beseech you What do you mean by Judge of Controversies If no more but this that vvhatsoever is contained in those Sacred Books is Truth and Truth divinely inspir'd and such as ought to be receiv'd by all vvith a submission so absolute and entire that no Authority on Earth is permitted to oppose or question the least title of it and that vvhen of any point in Controversie or not in Controversie the verdict of Scripture appears there is no more to do but immediately leave off disputing and receive it vvith the reverence and submission due to Divine Oracles If this be all you mean as I think it is What Catholic ever deny'd or question'd or doubted of it We hold him neither Catholic nor Christian that does And as little as you think our Vulgar people acquainted vvith the Scriptures I believe you vvill find few vvho knows not thus much of them Whether all this makes the title of Judge belong vvith propriety to Scripture you may if you please dispute vvith our Controvertists But for the substance of vvhat vve hold if this vvhich I have exprest be that vvhich you hold Catholics hold the same and as fully and as firmly I conceive vvhen you affirm and we deny Scripture to be the Judge peradventure it might have been more proper to have said Rule of Controversie vve mean not the same thing For since all the excellent Prerogatives belonging to that Book hinder it not from being a Book and a Book must be made up of Words and Words and vvhat is signified by the Words are different things vve think it may be permitted us vvithout contempt of Scripture to think that difference is
doing so they judge he is to be opposed and if they be the Judges they are no longer Rebels but exercise a Power due to them then which nothing can be more pestiferous and destructive of Government and ruinous of the advantages mankind receives by it Of which people may think as they please but I believe the private men are they who reap the greatest benefit by it and are more happy then Princes whom many crosly envy and might peradventure more justly pity For certainly to be ty'd to perpetual labour and care and un-intermitted sollicitude for the benefit of others is a condition not much to be envy'd and he who secure of his life and fortune by the pains of other men has nothing to do but freely to pursue that course to which his inclination or advantage leads him is in a condition much more desirable Wherefore not only Princes and all honest men with them but all who are not stark fools ought seriously to joyn to the preventing a mischief so ruinous Now as it is obvious and easily foreseen so there are several remedies which men have provided against it Some affirm that when the People have once parted with their Power and chosen to themselves a Form of Government and Governours they part with it for ever and have no more to do but obey for the future without any right of intermedling in any case with commanding and this is pretty well and renders the Government stable and the Governours secure Others think that they make all safe by excluding the People from a capacity of being their own Judges and reserving that Prerogative to the common Father of Christendom who they think will take that care to which he is obliged for the good of his Children But this is a little more and in truth too much suspicious and does not take away the harm but transfer the power of doing it into other hands For the same Inconveniences may be fear'd from the Pope as from the People especially where Princes are his enemies as many professedly are and all may be even those of his own Communion And comes so near that universal Temporal Monarchy which some have attributed to him that I do not think that any of his Adversaries will admâ—t it or that his Friends will know how to maintain it At least for my part I do not Others and I think the most both in number and Authority take away all interposing of the People farther than to design the person as in Elections or however they concur but make the Princes power flow immediately from God and so make it Sacred and exclude both Pope and People and all but God himself from medling with it And because this is the thing of which you desire I should discourse to those Authorities already mentioned in my former Letter I shall add as many more as I think may serve for your satisfaction In the first place those words of S. Paul seem decisive of the question Rom. 13.1 There is no power but from God For certainly it cannot consist with them that Power should be from the People or any else but him That exclusive word Nisi excludes all besides Conformably speak the Fathers Some I have mentioned before I add Epiphanius Haeres 40. You see that this Worldly power is by God or rather ordinata ex Deo orderly and from God and has the power of the Sword and not c. from any other but God to revenge S. Greg. Naz. de Beatid Absolute Empire and highest full power subject to no other pleasure or dominion belongs to Kingdoms Optatus L. 3. cont Parmen Above the Emperour is only God who made the Emperour c. Bruno Carthus in Rom. 13. There is no power whether good or bad but from God Hincmarus Ap. Bochel in Decret Eccl. Gall. speaking of King Lotharius He ought to be subject to the principality of God alone from whom alone he could be placed in his own principality These more ancient Authors speak all as the Apostle with a phrase of exclusion plain enough yet later speak plainer Card. Cusanus L. 3. Concord C. 5. First I presuppose what is known even to the Vulgar that the Imperial Cessitude is independent of the Sacerdotal power having an immediate dependence on God Dante 's Aligh de Monarch has a whole Book to prove this position and concludes Wherefore 't is plain that the Temporal Authority of a Monarch is derived to him without any mediation from the fountain of Vniversal Authority Joan. de Parisiis de Potest Regal Papal Both Powers proceed from one Supream power viz. the Divine immediately Anton. de Rosell Monar part 1. p. 37. Whence is inferr'd that Caesar depends of God immediately Theodoric à Niem de Schism L. 3. c. 7. That Empire depends principally and immediately of God appears by evident reasons de Offic. Princ. c 5. If the People were obliged to Obedience only in vertue of the consent to the Prince their Disobedience would be said to be a breach of their agreement and promise but not properly and directly of the Divine Ordinance which according to S. Paul by Resistance is properly and immediately broken For the Power which is resisted is ordain'd by God so that now Rebellion ought not to be lookt upon as against Man but against God Tho. Waldensis Tom. 1. l. 2. ar 3. c. 78. after a whole Chapter to this purpose concludes thus This we say that the Power of a King is only of God given him immediately by God Victoria Relect. de potest Civ n. 8. Kings have Power by Divine and natural Right and not from the Commonwealth Those who write in behalf of the Venetians in the Quarrel betwixt them and Paul the Fifth laid this Doctrine for a ground-work That the Power of temporal Princes the Pope too amongst the rest as he is a Temporal Prince is given them by God immediately and without exception Bellarmin Answers and reprehends that word immediately but is pretty severely reprehended himself for his pains and the expression justifi'd by the Authority of divers Catholic Doctors as Navar Durandus Joan Paris Almain Gerson c. In fine he was so Answered that he thought it better to have recourse to the Inquisition than to more Arguments and so caused the Authours to be cited to Rome But his Patrons deserted him not and the Inquisition of Venice protected him against that of Rome and the Doctrine remain'd not only unblemisht but countenanc'd by the Protection of a very wise Commonwealth Permit me to conclude this Point with an Authority which with an English man may peradventure sway more than all the rest It being a Declaration of Parliament and that in Catholic times That the Crown of England is and alwaies has been free and subject immediately to God and no other in all that concerns the Regality thereof 16. Ric. 2. Forreigners may talk as their fancy or Interest leads them but I suppose a
thought necessary Learned Men should be constrain'd by Oaths and fear of Penalties terribilibus comminationibus to declare their thoughts of this matter Possibly Interest may have had some share in this backwardness Men of this sort of Learning belong most to the Church and may peradventure consider that If they displease him who carries the Keys he may perhaps make use of them to shut the Gates of Ecclesiastical preferment Besides they have been diligent to discountenance and suppress all Books written against the Popes Power so that a Private man cannot write without the hazard of a Censure on his Book and possibly on his Person These I think are the true Reasons I am sure they are good ones of the backwardness which you phansie proceeds from a prohibition of the Church and with a great deal of injustice and no truth heighten into malice and the execrable hypocrisie of teaching two Religions one to be published the other conceal'd and I know not what when all this while I assure you there is no such thing as a Prohibition of the Church at least that I know of for any man to speak what he thinks what Fisher mentions was a private Order made amongst the Jesuites and concerns only themselves but wise men are not forward to speak what may turn to their prejudice nor quiet men to interpose in the concerns of higher and the Highest Powers as I conceive they are not therefore blameable However it be He who from the Sence of those who have vvrit would infer the Sence of all Learned Men concludes in my opinion very fallaciously Those who Write not and whose Sence we know not being much more Numerous and every jot as Learned as those who Write But to let that pass this Doctrine has found a different reception in the world The French as their natures are frank and open without more adoe plainly deny it and besides a great many reiterated Arrest of Parliament have solemnly condemn'd it in all their Universities In other Countries they are more reserv'd and rather oppose the Execution of the Power than the Power it self They let the Pope and any for him talk as they please but when it comes to Practice it alwaies proves unjust in that particular and I believe alwaies shall do In Brabant the Custom is That all Bulls are understood of course to be Subreptitious till they be approv'd by the Prince In other places they have other expedients but as far as I see by several means they all compass the same end and admit no more than they think stands with their Profit Only the French bluntly tell the Pope You cannot others use softer words but their Actions say You shall not farther than we think fit Now for the Opinion of the Canonists since Divines universally reject it I may without more adoe reject it with them Of the other it may be enquir'd Whether it be of Faith and Whether it be True which are very different Questions And for Faith I positively and freely disclaim it both because the Maintainers of it themselves confess it is not and though some are unwary enough to heighten it to that degree yet they are but few and their rashness is generally condemn'd as ill grounded and carried too far And besides I see the contrary is openly maintain'd by as numerous and considerable a Member as any belongs to the Catholic Church and while at Rome they condemn Withrington and Barklay at Paris they condemn Bellarmin and Suarez The Pope and the rest of the vvorld knows and sees this and yet Communicate freely with them and account them all the while good Catholics Which is plainly to acknowledge it is no point of Faith in which they differ for if it were they could no more Communicate with them than with Arrius or Pelagius neither is any consideration of their Power or concern of Policy able to justifie or dispense with acknowledging him a Catholic who persists to maintain an Heresie All the difficulty is Whether it be true or no. And who am I that I should undertake to dogmatize in an Age so Antidogmatical and where no vanity is thought greater than that of Dogmatizing and this in a Question which has exercised the Wit and Learning of Men esteem'd so great that to oppose them may chance be counted Arrogance The most I can do is to tell you what I think and what I think is even in my own judgment so inconsiderable that I think it a great deal better to play the Historian than the Disputer and hope you will be satisfied if I inform you as much as I know of this Question and relate the Arguments hitherto produc'd on both sides at least as far as I am acquainted with them and leave you to judge as you see cause By this means as you will have all the Information I can give you so none can rationally blame me for barely relating what every body either knows already or may know that will take the pains to look upon what is publickly and every where extant But before I begin the Arguments it will not be amiss to look a little into the Origin of this Dispute and consider when and how it came into the vvorld Gregory the VIIth was the first that brought it on the Stage Till his time the Independent Power of Princes was never questioned They not only quietly dispos'd of Civil matters without controll except where any notorious Injustice happened and then both Popes and other zealous Prelates took the liberty to reprehend and sometimes Excommunicate them but had no small share in Ecclesiastical matters so far as to make Laws concerning them to invest the Persons duly chosen to Benefices and confirm the Election even of Popes themselves which was not held valid without their approbation Take it in the words of Onuphrius no enemy to this Pope Onuph de var. Creat Rom. Pont. L. 4. Though formerly the Bishops of Rome were respected as the Heads of Christian Religion the Vicars of Christ and Successors of Peter yet their Authority extended no farther than either to assert or maintain the Doctrines of Faith For the rest they were subject to the Emperours all things were done by Their appointment Themselves were Created by them neither did the Pope dare to judge or determine any thing concerning them Gregory the VIIth was the First of all the Bishops of Rome who relying on the Arms of the Normans and Wealth of the Countess Mathildis a Woman of great Power in Italy and inflam'd by the discord of the Princes of Germany opprest with Civil Wars contemning contrary to the Custom of his Predecessours the Imperial Power and Authority after he had obtain'd the Pontificate durst not only Excommunicate but deprive the Emperour by whom he had been if not Elected at least Confirm'd of his Kingdom and Empire A thing to that Age unheard of for as for the Fables which go about of Arcadius and Anastius and Leo the
especially since many Doctors thought so as well as he For 't is one thing saies he in Tortus to bring Examples of Kings saies he of Popes say they and another to prove their Power and Authority Secondly They Answer that if it be a good Proof that a thing may lawfully be done which has been done before the Wickedest things in the world may be prov'd Lawful People may lawfully Rebel Public and Private Faith may be broken Commonwealths may be overturn'd c. for all these things have been done And without more adoe Popes may be Depos'd by Emperours as well as they by Popes for that has been done too Lastly and with a little more smartness They say this way of Proof plainly begs the Question and assumes the very Point in Dispute Bellarmin affirms and his Adversaries deny the Pope may justly Depose Princes now to Argue He has Depos'd them therefore He justly may assumes That what he has done is Just which is the very Point they Contest with him and therefore think it had been something shorter and altogether as much to purpose to have said 'T is Just because 't is Just. Every body knows Popes have both challenged and used a Deposing Power but every body is not satisfied that this Power is justly due to him Bellarmin undertakes to prove it is and brings for an Argument That he has us'd it which no body denies and would have that conclude That therefore he justly may which if his Adversaries had thought a good consequence they had not put him to the trouble of making it For they knew and acknowledged the Antecedent enough before But they think the Popes did amiss who did so and if barely saying that they did the thing be proving they had right to do it they confess they are in the wrong but if it be not Bellarmin is so and should have considered that barely to say his Tenet over is a kind of Proof which takes with none but very good natur'd People and as far as I see his Adversaries are a little more stubborn I am so weary with long Writing that I must intreat your permission to refer what remains to another opportunity I will hope I have said enough to quiet your suspicions and am sure I have said so much that I need some quiet my self and must take leave after so long a Journey to rest a while Your c. The Ninth and Tenth OF THE Controversial LETTERS OR Grand Controversie Concerning The pretended Temporal Authority of POPES over the whole Earth And the True Sovereign of KINGS within their own respective Kingdoms Between two English Gentlemen The one of the Church of England The other of the Church of Rome LONDON Printed for Henry Brome and Benjamin Tooke at the Gun at the Ship in St. Pauls Church-yard 1674. FRIEND I Expect that which you say remains with much impatience and t is only to tell you so that I now write for I do not intend to give you my thoughts of your last till I receive your next Only let me tell you it wambles in my stomack I know not how and works not kindly but because your next possibly may fully settle me I will not yet complain But methinks this next opportunity of yours is long a coming Have you been sick or diverted with business of greater consequence then clearing your self and your Church from an aspersion of which I take no joy to tell you the suspicions are more pregnant than I wish they were For 't is undeniable that Tenets inconsistent with Government are maintained among you You say they belong not to Religion and that indeed is something but not enough This may serve in some measure to justify your Religion but nothing at all to clear your selves For what matter is it whether your Religion be innocent if all that profess it are guilty though upon another account If you think these Tenets true you will be apt to practise them at one time or other although they do not belong to Religion Religion indeed is the strongest Principle of action but not the only one It is no part of Religion that two and three make five but yet if you do think to pay a debt of five pounds with twice forty shillings no body will deal with you And if all the Papists in England adhere to these Doctrines whether this adhesion of theirs proceed from Religion or any other motion the men will be unsafe and irreconcileable to the security of their Country let the Religion be what it will But if there be any who think them false it were convenient both for the satisfaction of their Prince and Fellow subjects and the interest of the thinkers People should know who those any are We cannot know your thoughts unless you acquaint us with them And because we have reason to believe that some do hold them and no reason to believe of any particular man but he is of the number till he disclaim them what can we do but involve you all guilty and innocent if there be any such in the same condemnation of diffidence You tell me the French plainly and openly condemn them The honester men they and the more shame for some body that there should be more honesty found in France then England You should do as they do though t' were but to be in the mode In all their airy toys their Feathers their Perukes their Pantaloons you can follow them fast enough But when they play the men and set you examples of prais-worthy actions there you are content to be out of fashion as if it were an honor to be as light as they and a shame to be as wise But pray what security is it to England that they are good subjects in France If they were knaves all over the rest of the world and we all honest at home it were a great deal better for us than that they should be honest abroad and we knaves at home I perceive indeed by what they do that you tell me true when you say these Tenets are no points of your Faith But then methinks you should have the less difficulty to disclaim them Unless perhaps you think them true which if you do either make them out to be consistent with goverment or you will not be consistent your self I tell you plainly I shall think ill of you if you think well of these Doctrâ—nes unless you can shew them innocent and safe which as far as I perceive you do not go about to do and when you offer at it may I believe with as much hope of success offer at the Philosophers stone In other Countrys you tell me They are more reserved and will not say you can not but you shall not And I believe you have liv'd in those other Countrys and suck't their Polities with their Air. But for my part I must confess I am for the mode once in my life and would be of the French fashion in this
new For 't is not with doctrines as with fashions A new doctrine can never grow old nor an old doctrine new To fix antiquity on what was not heard of in the Church for ten ages is with the confidentest and he must trust much to his Rhetorick who goes about to perswade it In the mean time John Barclay in defence of his Father has reason to say that this leaving the common consent is not to be objected to him but to those who spring up in later ages teach against the torrent of the Ancient Church But to his Argument Of the 70 Authors which he produces out of Italy France Spain Germany and Britain and all since Greg. 7. with whom he begins a great part are Canonists many such Divines who go their way and only use their Arguments some are not for him and others plainly against him At least John Barclay says so who examines them all particularly For my part I intend not to take so much pains To read threescore and ten depositions and sift them one by one is beyond my patience A man would sooner loose an ordinary cause then carry it at the expence of so much toyl But if I mistake not satisfaction may be had at a cheaper rate The Topick is Autority and that to my apprehension is efficacious but in two cases One vvhen the point in question is beyond the reach of reason as in Mysteries of Faith which because the shortness of human understanding cannot comprehend there is no means for men to lay hold of but by relying on such an understanding as can and does Thus Religion is believ'd because much of it cannot be seen and our security is the Authority of our first Teacher God and Man who we are sure saw himself what we could not and brought good evidence that he did so And so upon the matter we see with his eyes what we cannot with our own The other case which requires Authority is from a contrary ground not from the abstruseness of the points propos'd but weakness of the understanding to which they are proposed As when I press something upon another whereof I could bring proof good enough but his dulness cannot take it Here again Authority is all the Argument which can be used If I have not credit enough to perswade him to believe me there is nothing to be done You may say if you will there is the same reason in both cases viz. Weakness of Understanding only in the first the weakness is general and extends to all mankind in the second particular and belongs but to some But which soever you say I do not remember that Authority is otherwise conclusive Wherefore this point of the Pope's Power must either be of a Nature too sublime for any understanding to reach or it cannot be prest by Authority but only upon the weak and dull I know not which of the two Bellarmin fancied when he chose this Argument but in my opinion they are wild fancies both If he thought it so sublime how came he by it himself And to what purpose does he bring so many reasons to prove what is above reason and not attainable by it There is no way to climb to such a height but by immediate steps of one to another whereof the first had it with the rest of the Mysteries of Religion from Christ himself But as this way is neither endeavoured nor pretended so it would place the point in the same degree of obligation with the belief of the Trinity Incarnation and the rest which to omit the known untruth and what else might be said would leave no excuse for communicating with those who openly disavow it Then to think all men weak and dull and none able to look upon the dazling lustre of those reasons by which the point may be prov'd and upon that account descend to Authority is as much on the bow hand on the other side and a fancy which seems hardly credible in so modest a man as Bellarmin was And yet one of the two must be sayd or I know not what place there is for Authority Of a thing which can it self be seen and to those who can see it it seems to as little purpose to talk what others say of it as if to perswade men that this ribond is green and the other blew I should spend time in numbring how many thought so when 't is but shewing the ribonds and every body can tell what their color is To my apprehension therefore the whole Topic seems improper and ill chosen Notwithstanding let us see what it will do And in the first place methinks it were convenient to take along with us what Authority means and how they ought be qualified who can pretend to it And because I intend not to make a common place of it and swell my Letter by delating farther then is necessary I shall mention but one qualification but such an one as in my opinion is very requisite viz. That those by whose authority others are to be perswaded do themselves know that to which others are to be perswaded For I observe the world is a little resty and unwilling to be led by those whom they account weak and shallow And then this Authority is an Argument which does not render the truth apparent to the eyes of those who accept it upon Authority but suppose it seen by Authority and in vertue of that sight to be believed by other folks But if it be not seen by those whose Authority is prest upon me I can not imagine what title they can pretend to Authority nor in vertue of what I can be prest to follow it For certainly if I be blind my self it is very unreasonable I should take for a guide one who is as blind as I am When one blind man leads another we know what becomes of both Now because a conclusion is not seen till it be rightly prov'd among those seventy men of Authority whom Bellarmin alleadges there must be some one or more who has severely prov'd the point in question or neither he nor any man else can say that any of them saw it If there be no full proof among them all there can be no Authority nor reason why others should take them for Guides who for any thing we know are themselves blind as well as those whom they would lead If there be shew the ribond without more ado and never amuse us with what other people say of the colour It is a much shorter and much easier way for him to produce and us to see one good proof then to stand sifting the depositions of 70 men whereof 69 perhaps speak little to the purpose And after all too this proof must needs appear at last for till it do as I come from saying there is no reason we should believe those who for ought appears know no more than we who are required to believe them But to make this matter as plain as
positive Law of God which is the only question neither of them do so much as seem to intimate He ends with some quotations out of Councils with which I have no mind to meddle it being to enter into the Question of the Authority of Councils It will be enough to say briefly that if his Councils be so circumstanc'd as he himself requires they should be to engage our belief and mean as he does he has made a down-right Article of Faith of his opinion and cannot allow for Catholick Authors those who he says think otherwise But this is more than even himself pretends The Councils he cites all but that of Trent are not free from exemption I think in his own opinion And the Council of Trent says Ecclesiastical Immunities were instituted not Jure Divino as some others speak but Ordinatione Divina Ecclesiasticis Sanctionibus He would perswade us the Council speaks in this manner least people by Divine Right should understand Canon Law which for all Panormitan who he says confutes it is a Tenet ordinary enough But by his favour considering how tender the Council was all along to meddle with points controverted among Catholicks it is a great deal more likely the Council made choice of that expression to leave those who are for Jure Humano to their liberty For even they cannot except against that expression since whatever happens in the World by whatever means happens by Divine Ordination Wherefore the Council as far as I can see is so far from settling Bellarmin's opinion that it allows the contrary However it be Hic Rhodus hic saltas Bellarmin undertakes to shew us the positive Law of God for exemptions Let him do this and not tell us what others think or say of the matter even in Council For this is not the business now This is all that Bellarmin says upon this Head But that he liv'd in a place where the Doctrine of Exemptions ran with a strong Current and so in likelihood was carried away with the stream it is strange a man of his parts should engage for any thing for which he had so little to say He fairly confesses at first there is no express command for what he would perswade us is the positive Law of God and every body may see there is as little in his Arguments as in the Text. At least he saw so much himself For the most he attributes to them is bare Probability Which is to say in plain English It may be 't is so it may be 't is not so I know not whether it be or no. 'T were ill with the World if the Positive Law of God come once to May be 's Nor does it consist with his Providence to leave us groping in the dark to find out what his pleasure is with our uncertain guesses and hit right and get to Heaven if luck serve For all our hopes of Heaven depend upon the observance of his Law and if we have no better security of it than May be 't is pure chance whether we go to Heaven or Hell and we may e'en throw Dice for our Salvation In short These are Arguments of the power of Prejudice and nothing else Bellarmin I doubt was deep in when he made them Who thinks them concluding has a better opinion of them than He had and must needs be in deeper And so we are come to the Arguments by which he would intitle his Exemptions to Divine Natural Law The first is the Custom of Nations which seems rather Instance than Argument He had resolved the Divine Right which he pretends into the Law of Nations and now goes about to shew that several Nations have practic'd according to it I must confess this substituting the Law of Nations for Divine Natural Law will not down with me It is promising one thing and performing another For all the World thinks them different and he himself among the rest distinguishes them as Principles from Conclusions In quantum derivatur à lege naturali per modum conclusionis quae non est multum remota à principijs St. Thom. 1.2 q. 5. art 4. ad 4. Which Conclusions if you will believe St. Thomas must not be far off neither Put them as he does at such a distance that there is no evident no necessary connexion between them and no body but himself can imagine they have any thing to do with the Law of Nature But there being no need to ravel into that matter let it pass Bellarmin quotes for the Jews Exod. 30. and Numb 1. for the Gentiles Aristotle Caesar and Plutarch for Christians a Law of Constantine and another of Justinian not forgetting the forementioned instances of Pharaoh and Artaxerxes which it seems he thinks prove both Positive and Natural Law too To sift all these quotations minutely would prove a business and I love to spare my pains I conceive we are to set aside what he alledges from Exodus and Numbers For that the Levites paid not their half Sicle to the uses of the Tabernacle and that the rest did belongs not to the Natural but Positive Law of God For the rest all he saies is that something has been done for the Clergy in all the Nations he mentions Now because he took care before-hand least we should mistake to admonish us that there is no evident nor necessary Light of Nature to guide Nations in this particular it remains that the Clergy were beholding to the Civil power for what they had And this every body will freely grant him without troubling his Quotations Methinks this difference might be compounded Rather than fall out Bellarmin shall have it his own way for me With all my heart let the Custome of Nations carry it I am sure he is not so unreasonable as to require that Artaxerxes should be bound by Pharaoh's Laws or Pharaoh by the Gaules or Constantine by any of them Let the Clergy then be treated by every Nation according to their own Laws or Customes and the business is at an end But 't were good we understood one another A Clergy man is not only a necessary man in a Common-wealth but one who spends his whole life in the service of it For the good of particulars is the good of the whole and his whole business is to perfect particulars Now because it is impossible that who spends all his time in one employment should follow another it is plain that nothing is to be required of a Clergy-man but the work of a Clergy-man Whatever callings others follow whether by inclination or for advantage or perhaps by constraint none can be put upon the Clergy-man but his own I except cases of necessity where Clergy-men too sometimes turn Souldiers This is not to undertake a new calling but to suspend their own and that for a short time As soon as the necessity is over They are as they were before Nay a Clergy-man cannot live as a Clergy-man if he be forc'd to