be attended on with an ouer late repentance And you must knowe that the wings of a new conuerted soule to Christ do commonly at the first performe their speediest flight Quis dabit mihi pennas sicut Columbae et volabo Which for the most part after through some default or other do begin to lagg and to make certaine plaines For though these first Motions of the soule in the seruice of God be neither Naturall nor Violent since they descend only from him to whome by prayer we ascend yet they pertake much of that MotioÌ„ which is violent they being ordinarily more strong feruerous in the beginning more remisse towards the end and indeed experience teacheth vs that a Precipitiòus and ouer hasty deuotion is sometimes daÌ„gerous But if this your good desire do hereafter perseuere and continew I shall be ready within conuenient time to giue you my best assistance therein MICHEAS My Lord I make smale doubt that this my resolution through the ayde of him who first did inspire it into my soule will remayne stable and vnchangeable Therefore your Lordship may further hereby take notice that my intention is to spend his short remnant of my yeares in diligently studying the Controuersies betweene the Catholicks the Protestants to attempt as afore I intimated to plant that relilgion in others which you haue already planted in me I further am resolued to take a view if my aged feeble body will suffer me of the most famous Catholicke Protestant Vniuersities in Christendome and particularly I haue I confesse a thirsting desire to see the two so much celebrated Vniuersities of England of the one of which I here D. Whitakers is a member places of which Fame her selfe hath sounded her trumpet in the highest Note Now my good Lord in regard of these my determinations and of my late embracing of the present Roman Roligion the noyse and bruite whereof will no doubt spread it selfe at large I do probably presage that I shall meete with diuers Protestants who hearing of my election of Religion will perhaps earnestly solicite me for my change to them and making many violent incursions vpon my yet weake and vnfortified iudgment will endeauour to demollish and lay leuell with the ground whatsoeuer your Lordspip by your former learned discourse hath already built in my soule Therefore that I may sit close and immooueable in this my choyce of faith now made I would intreate your Lordship to instruct me how I may best guide occasion in discourse with such Men that so they may not be able to winne ground vpon my weakenesse For though I can in part discerne the sufficiency of other men yet reflecting vpon my owne imbecillity I with all discouer the want of their like sufficiency in my selfe I herein resembling the outward sence which aswell iudgeth of the absence as of the presence of it Obiect Therefore good my Lord initiate me a litle in this Mistery CARD BELLARM. Mieheas I like well of this your Promethian and forecasting wisedome And I will to my best ability powre satisfie this your desire And whereas you say you determine to see the Vniuersities of England I approoue well thereof for I haue often heard that speaking of the Materials of an Vniuersity they are the goodliest in all ChristeÌ„dome I meane for magnificence and statelines of their Colledges for opâ—lency and great reuenewes belonging to them and for their pleasing and sweete scituations If you go to Oxford you shall in all likelyhood fall in acquaintance with one D. Reynolds a Man as I am enformed not of a harsh and fiery as his Brother D. Whitakers is but of a temperate comportment one of whom the whole Vniuersity doth highly preiudge and indeede not vndeseruedly he being his Religion excepted endued with many good parts of literature and who hath heretofore bene my Antagonist in some of his Books written against some parcels of my Controuersies But now to descend to your last request to me seeing then you are not as yet conuersant in Points of faith controuerted betweene the Catholicke and Protestant My maine and first aduise is that in all points of faith of which any dispute may hereafter occurre betweene you and any Protestant you finally do rest in the authority of Christs visible Church and the cheife heade thereof assuring your selfe that although Simon the fisher was not able to determine matters of faith yet that Simon Peter and his successours assisted with competency of meanes haue euer an impeachable soueraignty granted to them and a delegated authority from Christ himselfe for the absolute discussing deciding of all Articles in faith and Religion Tues Petrus et super hanc Petram aedificabo Ecclesiam meam et portae Inferi non praeualebunt aduersus eam Expect to meete with men who are witty and of good talents and who well know how to spread their Netts to catch the vnprouided And whose streame of discourse for diuers of them are of great elocution for the most part runneth in their accustomed chanels of pleasing insinuations persuading to their faith and a violent ouercharge of gauleful words against the present Roman faith Touching their allegation of authorities either deuine or humane credit them no further then your owne eyes will giue you leaue for diuers of them vse strange impostures therein though they warrant such their proceedings with greate coÌ„fidency of earnest asseuerations quod si etiam viuit Dominus dixerint et hoc falsò iurabunt Make choice if so it lieth in your power rather to dispute with Protestant Doctours and Ministers who are vnmarried then married since the secret iudgments of these later may well be ouercome by force of argument but to persuade the wills to follow their iudgments in regard of theire clog of wife children and worldly preferments is more then a Herculean labour And indeed I confesse I do much commiserate the state of diuers of them who being otherwise of great wits and might haue beene much seruiceable in the Church of God by being inchanted with a little Redd and White and a well proportioned face do in their yonger daies tye theÌ„selues by marriage to the world to the attending afflictions thereof ô that the soule of man not subiect to dimension should be thus enthralled to Creatures for their hauing a pleasing dimension But to proceede You shall finde many of them of great reading yet of reading sorting rather to contradict and quarrell then to instruct but diuers of their coate are content through their owne want to retaile by help of Indexes and such other meanes their owne more learned Brethrens writings labours And many of these through their owne ignorance thinke they do well and that they professe a true faith wheras the more learned of them through their reading and study must in their owne soules of necessity be conscious guilty of the falsehood of their owne Cause though the preseÌ„t
of the Messias For all we concurrently maintayne that the Professours of the true fayth must at all tymes without the least interruption be made knowne and discernable And we further iustify that a want of such a Visibility destroyeth and annihilaâ—eth the Church of God MICHAEAS But will these two learned Men conspire with you M. Doctour in defending this euer necessary Visibility of the Church and this without any retyring backe herein or lessening and mincing the poynt once afore granted OCHINVS I speake for my selfe I am so confident therein as that I am ready at this instant to maintayne it agaynst any and this from the prophecyes of Gods sacred writ wherein the palme and victorious state of the Church in subiugating to it the Gentils is at large soretould to be in these after tymes euer most illustrious and radiant NEVSERVS And I as confidently do auerre the same euen from the sayd former deuine Oracles and am prepared if neede should require to solue all such texts of Scripture which in an ignorant and mistaking eye may seeme to import an Inuisibility of the Church at any tyme. MICHAEAS You all answere me to my full content and aboue my expectation Well then let vs eauen and playne the way of our ensuing dispute by resting vpon some one granted ground on all sides Which ground is the establishment of the Churches Visibility For it being once presumed that the true Church of God must at all tymes enjoy this Visibility it then most consequently followeth that you are obliged eyther to produce examples of Protestant Professours for euery age since Christ or els to grant that the Protestant Church is not the true Church but a late erected Conuenticle Therefore in regard hereof I hould it fitting that all of vs should ioyne our forces together for the proofe of this chiefe and head principle of the Churches Visibility you then Ochinus if it shall please you may according to your former proffer vndertake the probation of it from the Scripture Neuserus will he sayth recconcile all such chiefe seeming passages of the Scripture as may make show to euict the contrary And I will entreate of you M. Doctour to fortify the sayd Verity from the learned Monuments of the auncient fathers in whose wrytings no doubt you haue bene much conuersant as also from force of Reason My selfe will lastly reuet and warrant the same point from the often ingeminated acknowledgments of the most markable learned Protestants In whose bookes I confesse I haue much trauelled since my conuersion from Iudaisme And whose authorities I shall haue often occasion to produce throughout this conference For now you may take notice that I haue cast off all my former outward comportment of a Iew and am not only in fayth but also in my studyes my Idiome of speech and euery way els wholy Christian D. REYNOLDS I like well your method here intended and indeed it is that which the Philosophers call Ordo Naturae For by this meanes we first handle the Thesis to wit whether the Church of God is to be visible or no. That done we next descend to the Hypothesis Which is if the Protestants Church hath euer enioyed this Visibility or not Neyther can any iudicious man hould this first part as but certayne Prolegomena tending only to the better vnfoulding of the second Part for it is indeed a primary essentiall and radicall point and first in all necessity to be discussed For what auayleth it to prooue that there haue bene Professours of Protestancy in all ages since Christ if it rest doubtfull whether the Church of Christ exacteth such a necessity of it Professours in all ages or no Therefore Michaeas for my part I wâ—llingly vndergoe the taske desired by you OCHINVS We all ioyne hands herein Thus we see that ech of vs is prepared to cary a stone to the building of this fort which being once erected wil be able to endure the shot of her greatest Enemyes NEVSERVS I am most ready to performe my former assumed Scene therefore delay no tyme but begin OCHINVS Well then seing the proofes drawne from the sacred Scripture are worthily euer to haue the first place and seing I haue voluntarily imposed this labour vpon my selfe I will first begin Now for the confirmation of this supreme Verity of the Churches Visibility we will produce our first proofes from those Prophecyes which foretell that the Church after the coÌ„ming of the Messias shal be miraculously multiplyed Which extraordinary multiplicity of Professours must needs imply a Visibility of them As where it is sayd of the Church The Iles shall wayte for thee Their Kings shall miuister vnto thee and thy gates shal be continually open Neyther day nor night shall they be shut that men may bring to thee the riches of the gentills And agayne Kings shal be thy nursing Fathers and Queenes thy mothers And yet more I will giue thee the Heathens for thy inheritance and the end of the earth for thy Possession And lastly to omit diuers others such predictions of the Churches encrease and amplitude it is sayd enlarge the places of thy tents spread out the curtaynes of thy habitation for thou shalt encrease on the right hand and on the left thy seede shall possesse the Gentills and inhabit the desolate Cityes Now how can these Prophecyes touching the enlargement of the Church be truly applyed to that Church which shall consist of so few as that it shal be sometimes absolutely Inuisible Or how shall it gates be continually open and shut neyther day nor night as aboue is prophecyed of it if it shall remayne at any time in a night of Latency In this next place I will alledge such texts of holy Scripture wherin we fynd the word Ecclesia or Church In all which without exception by the word Church is signifyed a visible congregation of Men. The places among others for breuity omitted may be these Numbers 20. Why haue you brought the Church of the Lord into solitude But this Church was the knowne and visible people of Israëll which came out of Aegypt In like sort it is sayd 3. Kings 8. The King turned his face and blessed all the Church of Israell for all the Church of Israell did stand c. Math 18. Tell the Church if he will not heare the Church let him be as an Heathen or Publican But how can we be commanded to tell the Church if we do not know which is the Church And if in all our spirituall necessities we are commanded to repaire to the Church then followeth it that the Church at all tymes must be visible Act. 20. Take heede to your selues and to the whole flock wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you Bishops regere Ecclesiam Det to gouerne the Church of God But how could they gouerne the Church of God if they knew it not Act. 15. They being brought on the way by the Church passed through Phâ—enice
mayne Heresies or Paradoxes wholy impugned gainsaid and contradicted both by Protestant and Catholicke For this Man in this respecte is to be styled rather an open Hereticke then a Protestant euen in the censure of the Protestants themselues Therefore to conclude this last obseruation Euen as when beasts of seueral Kyndes or species do coople together that which is ingendred is of a third Kinde diuers from them both So here that Religion or fayth which is as it were propagated from the mixture of contrary Religions must be a beliefe different from them al. These things being premised now M. Doctour or either of you two may begin to instance in Protestant Professours for euery age And I shall reply therto as my iudgment and reading wil best inable me OCHINVS I do like well of these your animaduertions and they are able in a cleare iudgement to fanne away imperfect and faulty instances from such as be true and perfect MICHAEAS Before any of you begin your discours of Instancing I must demand of you al as Cardinal Bellarmyne did in his late discours with D. Whitakers whether you wil be content to stand to the authority of your owne learned Brethren in al the following passages betweene vs D. REYNOLDS I here answere for vs al We will indisputably stand to our owne mens learned iudgmeÌ„ts And if you can conuince either our future examples or our cause in generall from our Protestants penns we yeald you the victory For I do hould with Osiander the Protestant that the Confession and testimony of an Aduersary is of greatest authority And therefore Peter Martyr truly saith surely among other testimonyes that is of greatest weight which is giuen by the Enemyes And D. Bancrofs to omit al other Protestants in this point confirmeth the same thus writing Let vs take hould of that which they haue granted you may be bould to build thereupon for a truth that they are so constrained to yeeld vnto Which kinde of proofe is no lesse warranted by the Auncient Fathers for Ireneus saith It is an vnanswerable proofe which bringeth attestation from the Aduersaries themselues And Nazianzen pronounceth thus hereof It is the greatest cuâ—ning and wisdome of speech to bynd the Aduersary with his owne words So full you see Michaeas I am in this point But now let vs come to the maine matter To produce instances of Protestancy shal be my peculiar Scene And that I may the better marshal and incampe as it were my examples thereby the more forcibly to inuade your iudgment I will begin with the later times of the Church and so ascend vpwards And first for these last threescore yeares the Gospell of Christ hath enioyed here in England to forbeare all other Countreyes it Visibility in it full Orbe all writers of these dayes and other Nations acknowledging no lesse Againe in K. Edward the sixt his time this worthy Man Ochinus here present backed with the like endeauours of the learned Peter Martyr did so plant our Protestant fayth in our Nation as that infinite most remarkable Professours thereof did instantly growne like roses after a long cold or tempest blooming forth through the heate of the Sunne with refeâ—erence of which Professours Ochinus may iustly apply to himselfe the words of Aenias Quorum pars magna fui MICHAEAS Concerning the Professours of Protestancy here in England since Queene Elizabeth came to the Crowne I easily grant they haue been most Visible as I gather out of your English Chronicles And thus I freely confesse that Protestancy hath continued in England some threescore and seauen yeares But where you say that Protestancy I meane as it comprehendeth all the Articles taught at this day for Protestancy and which necessarily concurre to the making of a perfect complete Protestant was fully taught and beleiued in K. Edward his dayes I absolutely deny OCHINVS Will you deny Michaeas so manifest a verity whereas myselfe was not only an eyewitnesse in those times but If I may speake in modesty a greate Cause thereof What will you not deny if you deny such illustrious Trueths and what hope can we haue of your bettering by this our disputation MICHAEAS Good Ochinus beare me not downe with astreame of vaunting words the refuse of speech but if you can with force of argument I peremptorily deny the former point and for iustifying this my deniall I wil recurre to the Communion Booke set out in K. Edwards time with the approbation and allowance as D. Doue a Protestant affirmeth of Peter Martyr your Cooperatour Which Booke we must presume in al reason was made according to the publike fayth of the King and the Realme established in those tymes and the rather considering that the said Communion Booke for it greater authority was warranted in the Kings time by Act of Parliament Now this Communion Booke or publicke Lyturgy of the fayth of England in those dayes being printed in folio by Edward whit-Whit-church anno 1549. pertaketh in many points with our Roman Religion For it maketh speciall defence for Ceremonyes and prescribeth that the Eucharist shal be consecrated with the signe of the Crosse It commandeth consecration of the Water of Baptisme with the signe of the Crosse It alloweth of Chrisme as also of the Childs annoynting and Exorcisme In that booke mention is made of prayer for the dead and intercession and offering vp of our Prayers by Angells It deffendeth Baptisme giuen by Laypersons in time of necessity and the grace of that Sacrament as also Confirmation of children and strength giuen them thereby It mentioneth according to the custome vsed in tyme at Masse at this very day the Priests turning sometimes to the Altar and sometimes to the People It ordayneth that answerably yet to our Catholike custome Alleluya should be said from Easter to Trinity sunday It prescribeth the Priest blessing of the Bryde brydegroome with the signe of the Crosse It alloweth the Priests absolution of the sicke Penetent with these particular words By the authority committed vnto me I absolute thee of all thy sinns It mentioneth a speciall Confession of the sicke Penitent And lastly it commandeth the annoynting of the sicke Person which we Catholicks call the Sacrament of Extreme Vnction So little reason Ocbinus you see you haue to affirme that the Protestancy of the present Church of England is the same which was mantained and publikely established by King Edward OCHINVS Indeede I grant the Communion booke was then made by the consent of the Parliament but I instructed those with whom I conuersed to reiect those superstitions their confirmed D. REYNOLDS Well let that passe It auayleth not much whether Protestancy was here in England at those dayes or no since it is certaine it was then most fully dilated in many other Countryes by the late afore raysing vp of Luther who was miraculously sent by the Holy
the Church of Rome since the Apostles dayes Which Position is indeed the iuncture without which the whole frame almost of all other Controuersies hang loose Doctour Whitakers vndertaks to proue the Contrary In whom rather then in any other Protestant I haue peculiarly and ex professo made choyce to personate all the speeches and arguments vsed to proue this supposed change in the Church of Rome principally because there is no Protestant wryter that I know who hath so much prosecuted this presumed change as Doctour Whitakers hath done as appeareth in his Bookes agaynst the Cardinall himselfe agaynst Father Campion that blessed Saint and cheifly against Duraeus where the Doctour vndertaketh to instance diuers examples of this imaginary Reuolt Yet here you are to conceaue that I haue not so dwelled in the only wrytings of Doctour Whitakers as that I neglect what other Protestants haue also written in maintenance of this change for I assure you I haue omitted nothing of Moment which I could fynd in their Bookes to be obiected in proofe thereof though Doctour Whitakers is introduced to deliuer or speake it And withall I haue made speciall references to their Books where such their sentences or authorities are to be found And yet learned Men notwithstanding all that which can be vrged by any of them in this behalfe sooner shall they prooue that the fixed starrs haue changed their postures situations in their Orbe then that Rome hath changed it fayth So true are those words of an auncient Father Vetus Roma ab antiquis temporibus habere rectam fidem semper eam retinet What sentences authorities or instances of change Doctour Whitakers hath vsed in any of his Bookes by me alledged the same I haue set downe with citation of the Books and in a seuerall Character from that which he speaketh at large in the person of a Protestant and this to the end that the Reader may seuer the Doctours owne words from the words of a Protestant in generall In like sort what intemperate speeches euen loaded with malice and rancour the Doctourâ—seth â—seth against the Church of Rome are not by me forged and fathered vpon him But are especially those which are most virulent his owne words yet extant in his Bookes and accordingly they are printed in a different letter with the Latin words set in the margent So carefull I am not to wrong the Doctour by vniustly obtruding vpon him any scurrilous and vndecent Inuectiues or Pasquills The Conclusion consisteth in retorting that vpon our Aduersartes where with they here charge the Church of Rome I meane in demonstrating that it is the Protestant who hath made in fayth this change and innouation from the auncient fayth of the Apostles And thus by comparing these two contrary fayths doctrines together and the antiquity of the one and innouation of the other you shall find that errour is best knowne by truth as death is knowne bylife Now here your ingenuities are to suppose for the tyme that Cardinall Bellarmine and Doctour Whitakers are at this present liuing In like sort that the Cardinall hath read all bookes written either in Latin or English which are in this Dialogue alleadged Which like supposalls you are also to make in the other subsequent Dialogues touching the Persons in them produced as that they are now liuing and that they all liued at one tyme c. All which imaginations are fully iustifiable in the true methode of Dialogues since in this kind of writing the Persons you know are forged for the matter and not the matter for the Persons And thus much touching the first Dialogue Now to descend to the second Dialogue The subiect wherof is to demonstrate that the visibility of the Protestant Church cannot be iustifyed from the Primitiue Church much lesse from the Apostles dayes till Luthers reuolt And which is more that not any one Man during all that long Period of tyme nor Luther himselfe can be truly insisted vpon for a perfect absolute Protestant and such as the present Church of England can or will acknowledge to be a member of it Which point being once euicted How deadly it woundeth the Protestants may easily appeare in regard of the euer necessary and vndeniable visibility of Christs true Church whose expansion enlargment and vneclypsed radiancy at all tymes is much celebrated in Holy writ Her sunne shall not be set nor her Moone hid as will more fully appeare bereafter in it due place The interlocutours are the foresayd Michaeas the Iew Ochinus who first in King Edward the sixt his dayes did diseminate Protestancy at least seuer all points of Protestancy here lâ— England Doctour Reynolds of Oxford and Neuserus chiefe Pastour of Heidelberg in the Palatinate Why Ochinus Neuserus are brought in as speakers in this Dialogue the Argument prefixed therto will show I haue presumed to incorporate most of what can be vrged for the visibility of the Protestant Church in Doctour Reynolds as a Man who was best able in his dayes to support his owne Church from ruyne And sutably herto the supposed place of this disputation is Oxford I haue in no sort wronged the Doctour whom I well know to haue bene a blazing Comet in your Euang elicall spheare to whom as being of good temperance in his writings in respect of his brother Doctour Whitakers I am vnwtlling to ascrybe too litle only I wish his fauorits had not ascrybed to him too much If any of you shall muse why in these Dialogues all the Protestants being otherwise presumed to be most learned do reply so sparingly eyther to Cardinall Bellarmyne or to Michaeas their answeres and arguments as here you shall find them to do you are to conceaue that it is agreed in the begining of the two first Dialogues among all the Interlocutours to stand indisputably to the freqrent Confessions of the learned Protestants vrged in behalfe of any poynt controuerted Now both the Cardinall and Michaeâ—s for the most part do auoyd the other Interlocutours reasons and instances by the contrary acknowledgments of diuers eminent Protestants as also do produce their owne arguments in defence of their Catholicke articles from the like acknowledgments of the learned Protestants speaking in those points agaynst themselues and in behalfe of the Catholickes Which method being chiefly houlden throughout these Dialogues how then can the Protestant Interlocutours continue any new reply agaynst the Caidinall or agaynst Michaeas But to reflect vpon the subiect of this second Dialogue And here I do auouch that to maintayne that Protestancy was euer before the breaking out of Luther though euen then it was not in it perfection is no lesse absurd in reason then to maintayne that the byrth of any thing can precede it conception and the effect the cause True it is that in diuers former ages there haue bene some secret and indeed blind Moules who working vnder the foundation of the Roman Church haue labored
His staying in the graue three dayes Ionas 2. His Resurrection Psalm 15. and 132. His AsceÌ„tiâ—n Psalm 109. Finally to omitt diuers other lesser passages The descending of the Holy Ghost Ioel. 2. Thus in regard of their Premisâ—es I do fully acknowledg that in him and by him our Law which did serue but to shadow this time of Grace is now abrogated and therfore my selfe as conuinced with so many irrefragable demonstratioÌ„s of the trueth of your Chistian Religion do hereby submit my selfe to the sweet yoake of Christ do confesse my selfe to be in Iudgment and beleefe a Christian though as yet but an analogicall and halfe Christian and with reference to the time of the Law and the time of Grace and the adumbration of the one in the other I thinke I may not vnfitly style the different state of those two times The Euangelicall Law and the Leuiticall Ghospell since the Law is but the Ghospel Prophesied the Gohspel the Law complet and actually performed CARDINALL BELLARMINE LEarned Rabby I much reioyce at your change in Religion and indeed that precise correspondency which your selfe haue obserued betweene the Old TestameÌ„t and the New wherby you may se the Apostle had iust reason to say Omnia in figura contingebant illis is of force to corroborate and strengthen you in our Christian Faith against all those spirituales nequitiae or any other contrary assaults For now you se that the Maske or vayle of all your legall Sacrifices and Ceremonies is taken away through the perfect consummation of them in our Lord and Sauiour Therefore giue thanks to God for this your illumination and confesse with the chiefe Apostle That there is no other name vnder Heauen then that of Iesus giuen vnto Men wherein we may be saued D. WHITAKER It is most true which my Lord Cardinall hath said for Iesus Christ is the second person in the most blessed and indiuisible Trinity who was made Man to repaire the losse of the first Man who died to the end we should not dye Christus semel oblatus est ad multorum exhaurtenda peccata hauing humbled himselfe being made obedient vnto death euen the death of the Crosse for which thing God hath exalted him and hath giuen him a name which is aboue all Names that in the name of Iesus euery knee should bow of things in Heauen in Earth and vnder the earth Therefore he is to be your cornerstone wherupon you are to build all the spitituall edifice of your Soules Saluation And comfort your selfe Micheas with this that though only the Isralits did put Christ to death yet only a true Isralite is a true Christian MICHEAS All this I constantly beleeue But now at my first embracing of Christian Religion one maine difficulty doth mightely affrnot me I se you Christians though you do all militate vnder on supreme Captaine yet through your many Controuersies in Religion do rest deuided amongst your selues like so many distracted and disordered troupes or sqadroÌ„s not affording Saluation on to an other soe as from whence I am departed I do well know but what part to follow I am most vncertaine And though I firmly beleeue that without faith in Christ a man cannot be saued yet withall I as cnnstaÌ„tly beleeue that on beleeuing only in grosse in Christ shall not be saued Now here I se the Catholicke to condeme the ProtestaÌ„t for his destroying and taking away many Articles of Christian Religion to wit the Doctrine of Free-will of Purgatory of Praying to Saincts of Merit of workes and to omit many other controuerted points the Reall Presence in the Eucharist and Sacrafice of the Alter and for such proceeding doth anathematize him for an Heretick The Protestant on the other side for the Catholicke his mantaining and beleeuing the said points doth style him Superstitious Idolatrous and as on wholy exempt from all hope of Saluation And in these matters the iudgments of the Protestant and the Catholicke are so meerely contrary the one constantly affirming the other peremptorily denying as that their discording beleefes can neuer be wonn vp in any one publick confession or Creede Here now my deuided Soule licke the dissressed prisoner who hauing broken the Iaile knoweth not what way to flie for his best refuge tossed in the waues of such contrary Doctrines is ignorant towards what shoore to saile if I be a Protestant I can be no Catholicke If a Catholicke I am no Protestant The on I can but be both I cannot be That threatens to me the brand of Heresy this of SuperstitioÌ„ and Idolatry O God that the fragrant rose of Christian Religion should be thus beset on all sides with the sharpe pricks of these vnpleasing disagreements But this forceth me to remember those words of an auncient doctour Vt in pessimis aliquid boni sic in optimis nonnihil mali CARDINALL BELLARMINE True it is that there are many differences in Christian Religion and each good mans greife is hereby the greater for wheras contention in other things raiseth the estimation and valew of them contention about Faith in a vulgar eye lesneth it But these you are to conceiue Micheas take their course not from the Faith of Christ for it is but one vna fides vnum baptisma but from the Elation and height of priuat Iudgments which blush not to aduance themselues aboue all Authorities both Deuine and Humane Therfore Micheas the better to free you from all those laborinths of opinion which otherwaise may more easily illaquiate and intangle you build your Faith in all inferiour points of Christian Religion principally vpon Gods sacred Word as it is propounded and interpreted by Christ his Church and to her repaire in all your doubts since Christ himselfe hath vouchsafed to warrant this proceeding in these words dic Ecclesiae et Ecclesiam non audieret sit tibi sicut Ethnicus et Publicanus Reuerence Eclesiasticall Traditions which are deriued through a continued hand of time euen from the Apostles Id ab initio quod ab Apostolis for it is true that we Catholicks do beleeue some things without Scripture but it is as true that all Sectaries beleeue their Errours against Scripture Read the Generall Councels with whome Christ is euer present for he hath promised when but two or three are geathered togeather in his name much more when seuerall hundreds he well be in the middest with them and obserue the Heresies condemned in them Peruse the writings of the Primatiue Fathers and remember that sentence Interroga de diebus antiquis assuring your selfe that the Doctrine ioyntly taught by them is agreable to the Faith first taught by Christ and his Apostles Finally square your Religion according to the vninterrupted practise of Gods Church which the Apostle himselfe for our greater security hath honored with the title of Columna et Firmamentum veritatis And thus you shall forbeare to imitate those men who thinke to
of you the second time for all the Protestants do not precisely consent herein how longe do you thinke that the Church of Rome did continue in her Verginall state and Purity without any stayne in her Faith D. WHITAKERS I thinke that during the first six hundred yeares after Christ the Church was pure florishing and inuiolably taught and defended the Fayth deliuered by the Apostles During all which ages the Church of Christ in respect of truth in Faith and Religion was as I may say in the full assent of the wheele And although to speake by resemblance there are found euen many irregularities in the regular motions of the Heauens yet I am fully perswaded that for the space of the first six hundred yeares no annomalous exorbitancies of errours or superstition did accompany the heauenly preaching of the Ghosple in the Church of Christ CARD BELLARM. M. Doctour indeed part of what you here say are your owne words in your booke against D. Sanders and you deale more liberally herein then diuers of your Breehren by affording a hundred and fifty yeares more to the true Church then most of them will allow Now you granting the purity of Faith to continue in the Church of Rome for the space of the first six hundred yeares after Christ do withall implicitly and inferentially grant that no change of Faith was made in that Church within the compasse of the afore mentioned 160. yeares seeing the said 160. yeares are included within the first six hundred yeares as being part of them But to proceed further you are here M. Doctour to call to minde what your selfe at other times no doubt at vnawares haue writen I do finde to instance only in some two or three points that you affirme that Victor who liued anno 160. after Christ was the first that exercised iurisdictō vpon forraine Churches That not Cyprian only who liued anno 240. to vse your owne words but almost all the most holy Fathers of that time were in errour touching the Doctrine of good works as thinking so to pay the paine due to sinne to satisfy Gods iustice Finally that Leo who was Pope anno 440. to speake in your owne dialect was a great Architect of the Antichristian kingdome Are not all these your assertions M. Doctour D. WHITTAKERS I cannot but acknowledge them for mine since they are extant to be read in my owne bookes loath I am to be so vnnaturall as to disauow or abandon any issue begotten on my owne brayne CARD BELLARM. Marke well then M. Doctour my deduction If the Chucrh of Rome remayned in her purity of Fayth without any change for the first six hundred yeares for your owne confessiō aboue expressed is that the Church of Christ so long continued a chast and intemerate Spouse And if as your owne penne hath left it written the doctrine of the Popes Supremacy was taught by Victor the first The doctrine of Merit of Works was mainteyned by Cyprian generally by other Fathers of that age and to be short if Leo were a great Architect of the kingdome of Antichrist you meaning of our present Roman Religion all which said Fathers to wit Cyprian Victor Leo and the rest did liue diuers ages before the sixt age or Century to what time you extēd the purity of the Faith of the Church of Rome doth it not then ineuitably result out of your owne Premisses if al this be true as you affirme it is that the doctrin of the Popes Supremacy the doctrine of merit of workes and our Catholicke Doctrine generally taught by Antichrist as you tearme the Pope were no innouations but the same pure doctrines which the Apostles first plāted in the Church of Rome Se how your felfe through your owne inaduertēcy hath fortified the truth of that doctrine which your selfe did intende to ouerthrow And thus farre to show that their neuer was made any chāg of Fayth in the Church of Rome prooued from the distribution diuision of those two different times which by the learned Protestants acknowledgments do contayne the Periods of the Church of Rome her continuance in the true Fayth of the Publicke and generall Profession of our now present Romane Fayth D. WHITTAKERS My L. Cardinall Whereas you haue produced seuerall testimonies from our owne learned Protestāts who teach that in the second third fourth age after Christ such such an Article of the Papists Religion had it beginning It seemeth in my iudgment that these their authorities do more preiudice then aduantage your cause Since such testimonies if so you will stand to them do shew a beginning though most anciēt of those doctrines after the Apostles deaths and consequently a change of Faith in the Church of Rome For if you will admit the authorities of the Protestants granting the antiquities of the present Romish Religion in those former times you are also by force of reason to admit their like authorities in saying that at such tymes and not before those Articles were first taught for seing both these points are deliuered by the Protestants in one the same sentence or testimony why should the one part thereof be vrged for true and the other reiected as false MICHAEAS M. Doctour Here with my L. Cardinall and your owne good licence I am to make bould to put in a word or two This your reply M. Doctour by way of inference may seeme to lessen the antiqurty of our ancient Iewish Law and therfore I hold my selfe obliged to discouer the weakenes therof though not out of desire to entertaine any contestation with you Grant then that some miscreants or Heathen Writers as Enemies to the Law of Moyses affirme that the Religion of the Iewes had it beginning in the tyme of Esdras for example This their testimony may iustly be alleaged to prooue that our Iewish Law was as auncient at least as Esdras but it cannot be alleadged to prooue that our Law tooke it first beginning at that time only and not before in the dayes of Moyses Therefore in the Authorities of this Nature produced from our Aduersaries writinges we are to distinguish and seuer that which the Aduersaries granteth in the behalfe of vs from that which he affirmeth to his owne aduantage What he grāteth for vs against himselfe so farre we are to embrace his authority seing it may be presumed that ordinarliy no learned man would confesse any thing against himselfe his Religion but what the euidency of the truth therein enforceth him vnto and therefore one of the ancient Doctours of your Christian Church if I do remember his words in this respect said well I will strike the Aduersaryes with their owne weapons But what the Aduersary affirmeth in fauour of his owne cause and against vs their we are not to stand to his own authority since no man is to be a witnes in his owne behalfe and it well may be presumed that such his sentence
vs at what times some sensible degrees and increase of this supposed change did happen and the manifestatioÌ„ of these degrees is to be made by naming the time and person when by whoÌ„ such and such a particular poynt or article of our present Roman Religion was first sensibly introduced into the Church of Rome The which not any Protestant notwithstanding all his exquisite and precise search of Ecclesiasticall Histories hath bin able yet to perform And thus farre M. Doctour of these your similitudes which you see in a true ballancing of them do become rather hurtfull then beneficiall to your Cause and therfore they had ben better forborne by you then vrged D. WHITAKERS Indeede I grant that there are no Histories or Records at this day out of which we can certainly collect the change of Religion in the Roman Church But no doubt such Records there were though now wholy extinguished made away by the vigilancy and carefulnes of former Pâ—pes who to preserue the honour of their Church as free and exeÌ„pt from all change and innouation did deliberately purposely cause all Coppies of such writings and narrations to be for euer suppressed and buried in obliuion eyther by fire or otherwise CARD BELLARM. M. Doctour this is a meare groundles Phantasie If you haue any graue testimonies warranting a generall suppression of all such records then all of them were not extinguished since the testimonies which affirme so much are yet extant If you produce no authority witnessing so much then why should we beleiue your bare and naked affirmation herein But to examine more punctually this poore refuge And first wheras you teach that this change of Faith in the Roman Church came in by degrees now by innouating one point of the ancient true Fayth now another supposing for the time this to be true how can it be conceiued that all the Coppies of such particular changes in Faith already dispersed throughout all Christendome in the handes of infinite Protestants as you maÌ„taine though vntruly that in those times they were could be gathered suppressed without any remembrance thereof to all posterity It is most absurd but to furmise such an impossibility Furthermore do we not see that the liues of such Popes which can be lesse warranted were recorded in histories yet extant to this very houre as else where is intimated Neither the narrations of them either were or could euer be suppressed How then can we be persuaded that the memory of this supposed great chang could by any such meanes be cancelled in a perpetuall forgetfulnes Since certaine it is that the Popes if possible they could would haue caused all narrations touching the personall faults of their Predecessours to haue beene vtterly extinguished considering that such their lesse iustifiable liues might be reputed by many to be no smale blemisne to the Church of Rome Such an improbability this your euasion M. Doctour inuolues in its selfe D. WHITAKERS My Lord It seemes you are very dexterous in warding all our instances and other arguments aboue produced to prooue the former presumed change But imagine for the time that we cannot alleadge out of any now extant authorized history examples of any knowne innouation imagine also that we cannot shew at what particular time and season the parcels of these changes did happen imagine lastly that there were neuer any records testimonies or writings in which these changes were registred yet how are you able to put by the sharp-poynted weapon of Scripture wherwith your religion is mortally foyled We know that the Fayth of the present Roman Religion is repugnant to the holy Scriptures to which only wee appeale and whose â—autarceia and all sufficiency is defended by vs Protestants the sacred Scripture being to vs more then decaplês apologia a tenfould shield of our fayth This I say we know and consequently we further know that the fayth of the Romish Church is not the same which was planted in Rome by the Apostles Here is our fortresse here is our strength and this place to you Romanists is maccessible Here we haue Tò retòn the Word epi tèn dianeian tóùr etóù to the true meaning of the Word all Controuersies are to be referred And with this Word we are able to inflict Cairian pâ—etèn deadly to wound your popish Religion And we are so truely impatrônized of the holy Scripture as that wee dare pronounce with the Apostle If an Angell reach any other Ghosple vnto you then that which wee haue preached let him be Anathema For to vs it is sufficient by comparing the Popish Opinious with the Scripture to discouer the disparity of Fayth betweene them and vs and as for Historiographers Wee giue them liberty to write what they will seeing this aplóùs lógos tes ' aletheias this simple Word of truth is able to refute any thing brought to the contrary And therfâ—re my Lord Cardinall I must say to you here with Archidamus ' èt è◠dynamei próstheis ' e tóù phronématos ' ypheis either maÌ„taine your Religion with the force of Scripture or else wisely cease from the further defence thereof CARD BELLARM. M. Doctour before I come to ballance this your last argument you must pardon me if I smile to my selle to obserue how affectedly and ambitiously you haue rioted in your Greeke throughout this whole discourse and especially in this your last close besprinkling diuers passages thereof as it were with some Greeke word or other Which in my iudgment beare with me if I misconster your meaning is but to beare your ignorant followers in hand what jolly men and great Clarkes you Protestants are And according hereto we commonly find the bookes writen either by English French or German Protestants euen to swell with Greeke phrases or sentences But who seeth not how forced this is it being a point of ostentation and vanity thus to braue it forth in a froath of strange wordes We all know the tongues are but the porters of learning in which the Catholicks though with more cession modesty are most skilfull and that he who is a learned man indeede is euer presumed afore hand to be expert in them as being meanes conducing to the perfection of learning Thus the want of Greeke is a great defect the enioying of it but a necessary furniture of a scholar Therefore who vanteth hereof or is become fond of a few greeke words being commonly ignorant of the riches contayned in that tongue as many Protestants are is like to that man who taketh delight in a litle Mother of Pearle he reioiceth he hauing no interest to the Pearle within contayned I speake not this but that it is lawfull sometime to make vse of Greeke phrases and sentences but this chiefly when the QuestioÌ„ is touching translations out of that tongue and that we are to recurre to the Greeke being the originall for the cleering of that point Or when the
Vniuersall much practised by our Aduersaries For according hereto if they can finde any Father or any moderne Catholicke Authour to mantaine though therein contradicted by other Fathers and Catholicks but one or two Points of Protestancy they blush not to auerre that the said Father or Catholicke writer are entire Protestants in all points 9. If your Aduersary should produce some supposed disagreements in doctrine among Catholicks you may reply that their differences rest only in some Circumstances of a Catholicke Conclusion and not in the Conclusion it selfe And if he produce any presumed Catholicke denying the Conclusion it selfe of the doctrine then are you to tell him that such a man ceaseth by this his deniall vnlesse ignorance or inconsideration excuse to be a member of the Catholicke Church therefore this his deniall doth not preiudice the Catholicke Faith this being contrary to the Protestants proceeding who wittingly mantaining contrary conclusions of Faith do remaine neuerthelesse by the iudgments of many of them good brethren and true Professours of the Ghosple 10. If your Aduersary contest that all the writinges and memory of Protestants in former ages were extinguished by the Popes of the said and after succeeding ages you may show how absurd this assertion is And the reason hereof is in that the Popes of those times could not presage that Protestancy should on these our times sway more then any other Heresies condemned in their very times which other Heresies remaine yet registred euen to this day by the acknowledgment of of the Protestants And therefore by the same reason Protestancy supposing it to be professed in those former times should also haue remained recorded either in the writings of the Protestants themselues if euer any such were or else by the censure and condemnation of them by the Popes of those daies 11. Whereas you may alleadge diuers acknowledged Heresies both in the iudgment of Protestant and Catholicke out of the bookes concerning diuers persons who beleeued some few points of Protestancy recorded in the said bookes here I speake of VValdo VVicliff c. Now if here your Aduersary disputant doth auouch as many Protestants do that these Heresies were falsly obtruded vpon the then said Protestants by their Enemies you may here reply that to affirme this is against the force of all reason For seeing the said bookes do indifferently make mention both of the Protestant Opinions and of the other Heresies defended by the same men either the said Bookes are to be beleeued in both or to be reiected in both If the first then it is certaine that those men beleeued those acknowledged Heresies and then they can not be instanced for perfect Protestants If the later then the said Bookes are not of any sufficient authority to prooue that there were any Protestants in those ages 12. There is great disparity betweene Protestants confessing some points which do aduantage the Catholicke faith as for examples that the Primitiue Fathers were Papists in all cheife Articles of Papistry as the Aduersary vse to tearme it and other Protestants impugning the said Confessions Seeing the first men speake against themselues and their Cause which they being learned would neuer do but as conuinced with the euidency of the truth therein whereas these other do deny the Confessions of their owne Brethren in behalfe of their owne Religion and so such their denialls are to be reputed more partiall In like sort there is great difference to be made betweene Protestants speaking against themselues and yet beleeuing the Protestant doctrine and conclusion touching some Circumstances whereof their said Confessions are and betweene some others who afore were Catholickes and after do defend some one point or other of Protestancy Since these later men do not speake against themselues but in defence of such their Protestant doctrine then newly entertained by them and consequently in defence of their owne opinions and therefore such their authorities are not to ballance equally with the Confessions of the former Protestants 13. If your Aduersary doth produce any authorities either from the Popes Decrees or from Generall Councels by the which the Antiquity of some Catholicke Article may be impugned Be carefull 1. That particular Councels or Councels Scismaticall not warranted by the Popes authority be not obtruded vpon you for true Generall Councells 2. That the point vrged out of the Councell doth concerne Doctrine of faith and not matter of fact touching which later point it is granted a Councell may alter it Decrees vpon better and later informations 3. That the Canon or Decree poduced out of the Councell do immediately concerne the doctrine it selfe of some Article of faith then supposed to be brought in and not the name only to be imposed vpon the said doctrine afore beleeued as it happened in the Councell of Lateran touching the word Transubstantiation 4. That the Decree of the Pope or Councell deliuered only touching the better execution of some Catholicke point afore partly neglected as for example touching Confession the vnmarried life of the Cleargy or keeping set times of fasting and the like be not fraudulently extended by your Aduersary to the first institution of the said doctrine he so suggesting a more reformed execution or practise of the Catholicke doctrine for the first institution of it 14. If your Aduersary produce the ancient Fathers in defence of Protestancy first aske him if he will inappealeably stand to their iudgments If he will then vrge the Protestants whose bookes are most plentifull in such like accusations charging them as Patrons of Papistry If he will not stand to their authority then demand to what end he doth alleadg them And further let him know that it is the ioynt consent of Fathers without contradiction of other Orthodoxall Fathers which the Catholicks do admit Where some Protestants obiect that diuers points of the Cathoclike Religion were condemned in some Hereticks by the Orthodoxall Fathers of the Primitiue Church you may truely reply hereto that the Article or conclusion it selfe of any Catholick point was not condemned by them but only some absurd and wicked Circumstance annexed by the said Hereticks to the Article was condemned by the Fathers Thus the Catholicks are charged by D. Fulke and others to borrow the praying to Saints and Angels from certaine old Heretickes condemned by Epiphanius for this doctrine Whereas those Heretickes praied both to good bad Angels to those who were falsly tearmed Angels accoūpting them as Patrons of their wickednes And for these Circumstances only Epiphanius registreth thē for Hereticks This sleight is much practised by diuers Protestāts in certaine points of the Catholicke Religion Therefore be sure to see the words of the Fathers so condemning them in the Fathers owne bookes which if you do you shall discouer wonderfull forgery and deprauation of the said Fathers writings vsed by the Protestants 16. If it be vrged that the deniall of Free-will for example and so of other Articles of Protestancy was taught
this Authours fraud and imposturous cariadge who tearmeth all such Articles wherein S. Bernard did agree with vs as the Sacrifice of the Masse Purgatory merit of Works free will praying to saincts and indeed all other Catholicke Articles whatsoeuer only his boldnes of wryting to Pope Eugenius excepted to whom afore he had bene Mayster and therevpon presumed to wryte more freely Slips Lapses as they were beleiued by him which in vs Catholicks he exagerateth by the name of Superstition Idolatry c. And thus we may see how one and the same Cause being exemplified in different Persons is by this Pamphleters deceate diuersly censured Leaning S. Bernard the Authour generally but with out any prouf at all wisheth his Reader to thinke that the Protestant Church was in all Countries in Christendome and did lie hid as those Iewes did in the tyme of Elias for feare of Persecution But this he only saith but proueth not and it is therefore reiected with the same facilitie with which it was spoken Now touching those Men who conceales their fayth for feare of persecution I refer the Reader to the former dialogue wherein the weaknes of this pretext of Persecution is particularly displayed That done the Pamphleter sayth that India Armenia Asia the lâ—ssar and Egypt had in former tymes Christians in them for he giueth them no other name then Christians And then he inferrs without any proofe at all or instances in the points of their Religion that they were Protestants Poore man that thus most insensibly reasoneth Seing we find the Christians of all those Countreyes to agree in all the cheife points with the present Roman Churrch Only some of them do not acknowledge the primacy of the Bishop of Rome aboue all other Bishopps In the last place of all he much insisteth in the Greeke Church within which are included the Russes and Muscouits he thus saying thereof The Greeke Church was neuer so much as in show extinguished And from whome the Russians and Muscouâ—ts had their fayth And then a little after he thus enlargeth himselfe We should do wrong to Almighty God c. to pull from him so many ample Churches meaning the Greeke Church the others aboue specifyed inferring from thence that the Protestant Church did in former ages rest visible euen in the Greeke Church Now this his shamelesse alleadging of the Greeke Church for Protestants shal be confronted with the testimony of Syr Edwin Sands a man of his owne Religion who plainly affirmeth that the Greeke Church doth concurre with Rome in opinion of Transubstantiation generally in the sacrifice and whole Body of the Masse in praying to Saints in auâ—â—cular Confession in offering Sacrifice and prayer for the dead Purgatory worshipping of pictures Yea the Protestant Deuines of Magdeburg do record that the Greeke Church doth not only beleiue all the former Articles recited by Syr Edwin Sands but also that it beleiueth and teacheth the signifying Ceremonyes of the Masse Confirmation with Crisme Extreme Vâ—ction all the seauen Sacraments Almes for the dead freewill Monachisme vowes of Chastity the fast of Lent and other prescribed fasts that Priests may not mary after Orders taken and finally that the tradition doctrine of the Fathers is to be kept Now heere I refeâ—re to any one not blinded with preiudice whether the professours of the Greeke Church are to be accounted for Catholicks or Protestants And from hence we may discâ—uer the idle and ridiculous vaunting of this Pamphleter who in the close of this point touching the Greeke Churches being protestant and a continuall Visâ—â—iliâ—y of Protestancy in the said Churches thus insulteth Looke to these places you Papists and Imagine that if there had beene none but these yet the words of the Scripture which in generality speake of a spouse had beene true And Christ had there had his Body vpon earth and the Church had not beene vtterly extinguished if neither We nor the Synagoâ—ue of Rome had beene extant Thus he His former examples being ended he entertayneth his Reader with great store of frothy and needlesse matter touching former differences betweene the Popes and Emperours the Kings of England and France And then all such persons as did bandy themselues either by wryting or otherwise with the said Emperour or Kings agaynst the Popes of those tymes the Pamphleter vrgeth for Protestants though the cheife cause of such differences betweene the Popes and the sayd Princes was touching Distribution of Ecclesiasticall Liuings within their owne Realmes That done the Treatiser extraâ—agantly discourseth in his deâ—lamatory rayling veyne that the Pope is Antichrist But how rouing and wandring all this is to the title of his Pamphlet and prouing of his owne Churches visibility the which he obliged himselfe to performe may appeare by what is already set downe After all this for a Close of all he obiecteth for forme-sake as if his taking notize of what we can truly obiect against his wryting were a sufficient answere to it certaine exceptions vrged by the Catholicks agaynst his former Instances of protestancy Which Obiections of ours being set downe he shapeth no true Answere vnto them And first he thus obiecteth in our behalfe l The Papists will beginne and say that we rake together as the Auncestours and forerunners of our fayth such as were notorious Hereticks as Wicklefe Hus or the Waldenses c. To which after much securtility of words he finally thus answereth We do not beleiue that all those are Hereticks whom you Papists will so call or account But we reply hereto and say That not only the Catholicks but the Protestants themselues do particularly charge Wicklefe Hus the Waldenses as also Almaricus Peter Bruus c. with many grosse and absurd Heresyes acknowledged for such euen by our Aduersaryes as may abundantly appeare by recurring to the seuerall passages of this former Dialogue The defence of which heresyes doth necessarily make their defendours absolute Heroticks seing they were mantayned by Waldo Wicklefe Hus c. with a froward and open contempt of the authority of Gods Church publikly teaching the contrary far differently from S. Austin S. Cyprtan and Lactantius their beleiuing certayne errours the which this Pamphleter for the more lesning of the Heresyes of Waldo Wicklefe Hus c. in p. 112. suttely repeateth seing these Fathers taught them only as their owne probable opinions euer submitting with all Obedience their Iudgments therein to the supreme Iudgments of Christ his Church Ad hereto that seing those Books written by Catholicks of those tymes do indifferently charge Wicklefe Hus Waldo and their followers with mantayning of some one point or other of protestancy and with diuers absurd Heresyes The authority therefore of those Writers are eyther equally to be beleiued in all their accusations or equally to be reiected in them all And the rather seing they could not foretell a consideration much to be obserued or presage what
points touching fayth and Religion and different from the then Roman fayth wherewith Waldo Wicklefe Hus c. were then charged would be professed beleâ—ued and mantayned in these dayes by the enemyes of the Church of Rome And therefore it necessarily followeth that the accusations passed in former times vpon Waldo Wicklefe Hus and the rest are either in generall true or in generall false If false then haue we no sufficient Records that there were any in those dayes who beleiued any points of protestancy If true then certayne it is that as Waldo Wicklefe Hus c. mantayned some points of protestancy so with all that they mantayned diuers explorate Heresies and acknowledged for such both by Catholicks and Protestants Secondly the Pamphleter obiected in the Catholicks name in this sort None of all those which hitherto haue beene named or can be named meaning for Protestants but in some knowne confessed and vndowbted Opinions did varye from you And therefore they and you Protestants may not be said to be all of one Church This difficulty he salueth with a most impudent and bare denyall saying All those whom before I haue named did generally for all mayne Matters teach the same Which we now teach What forhead or shame hath this Man For First as touching Waldo Wiclef Hus and their followers in whom through out this Pamphlet the Authour principally insisteth It is confessed by Osiander Luther Fox and other Protestants as also it appeareth by some of their owne Wrytings that they agreed with the Catholicks in most points of Catholicke Religion which were of greatest moment as in the Reall Presence seuen Sacrements praying to Saincts Purgatory frewill Merit of Works and in all other most principall Articles of the present Roman Religion Concerning the proufe of all which poynts I remit the Reader to the Former Dialogue Secondly touching other obscure Men alledged by the Pamphleter for Protestants he commonly and for the most part some two or three excepted exemplifieth no other Article of Protestancy defended by them then their disobedience and inueighing against the Bishop of Rome But if he could haue iustly auerred them for Protestants in all chiefe Articles why would he not as well particulary set the said Articles of Protestancy downe as he did the other touching their disclayming from the authority of the Bishop of Rome Ad hereto that many are produced for Protestants by this Authour only for their sharply speaking and writing against the manners and conuersation of the Cleargy in those dayes they not dissenting from the doctrine of the then Church of Rome in any one article whatsoeuer euer euen ackuowledging the Primacy of that Sea To all the former poynts I may adioyne this following Consideration That supposing the forsaid alledged Men were protestants in all poynts yet do they not proue the Visibility of the true Church of Christ for these Reasons ensuing First because they were but few in number and in regard of such their paucity the Predictions of the amplitude largnes and continuall splendour of Christ Church could not be performed in that small number Touching which predictions peruse the beginning of the Dialogue Secondly because neither this Authour nor any other Protestant liuing how learned soeuer can proue that there were in those tymes specified by this Pamphleter any Administration of the Word and Sacraments practized by any of these supposed Protestants which euer necessarily concurs to the existence and being of the true Church as is demonstrated in the former Tract Thirdly because the former Men could but serue for instances during their owne lyues and no longer The Pamphleter not being able to name any one Man for a Protestant for the space of many Ages and Centuryes together which poynt being so impugneth not only the Nature of Christs true Church which must at all tymes and ages be most visible but also it crosseth the Title of this Pamphlet wherein the Authour vndertaketh to proue the Visibility of his Church in all Ages Thus far now Good Reader I haue labored in surueighing this Idle Pamphlet Now for they better memory I will breifly recapitulate and repeate certaine chiefe impostures and deceatefull deportements practized by this Authour throughout his Booke And then I will remit both him and his Treatise to they owne impartiall Iudgment 1. First then I may remember his putting no name to his Booke nor taking any Notize of the then late Conference in London touching the Visibility of the Protestant Church nor once naming M. Fisher and M. Sweete the two then disputants Which concealed Cours our Pamphleter purposly affected in all probability seing otherwise he might well thinke that the setting of his owne Name downe especially if the Authour were either D. Whyte or D. Featly or hauing in this discours particular reference to the foresaid Disputation might sooner draw on an answere to his Pamphlet from one of the said two Fathers or from some other Priest 2. Secondly You may call to mynd that in the first part of his Treatise he laboreth to proue rather the Inuisibility of the true Church then the Visibilitie thereof contrary to the Inscription of his Pamphlet cheifly to intimate thereby that a continuall Visibility of the true Church is not so necessarily to be exacted as we Catholicks do teach it is and consequently that what few weake mayâ—ied and imperfect proufs and examples for the continuance of protestancy he was after to alledge the same might be thought sufficient and strong enough for the establishing of his owne Churches Visibility 3. Thirdly The pamphleter callengeth any one for a Protestant who did but hould one or two Articles of protestancy and especially if he did but impugne the Popes authority or did wryte against the Manners conuersation of the Cleargy of those dayes though otherwyse he did agree with the Church of Rome in all Articles of fayth 4. Fourthly He callengeth those for protestants who were condemned by the Church of Rome for other Errours then are mantayned by the protestants so making the ignorant Reader beleiue that the Pope in those dayes condemned only the doctrines of Protestants for Heresies this the pamphleter doth to the end that the number of the professours of his Church in those dayes might seeme the greater in his Readers eye 5. Fyftly he most cauteously concealeth the Catholicke doctrynes euer beleiued by Hus Wiclefe Waldo c. as also sic most falsly extenuateth such Heresies as they mantayned are acknowledged for Heresies euen by learned protestaÌ„ts The Treatizer subtelly forbearing to name or set downe in expres Words any one of their Heresies 6. Sixtly For want of better Authours he fleeth to the testimonyes euen of Poëts as Chaucer Daâ—â—es Petrarch vrging them for protestants only by reason of their Satyrs written against the supposed abuses of Rome 7. Seauently he most impertinently dilateth and spreadeth hymselfe in long and tedious discourses touching the increase of the Doctrine of Waldo Hus Wiclef
power of Magistrats doth arme the subiects against their France in these cases c. And further Beza m roundly teacheth what reason haue Christians to obey hym that is Satans slâ—ue And yet speaking more of that Booke of Beza he saith a booke which ouerthroweth in effect all authority of Christian Magistrats To contract this poynt touchinge Beza Beza hymselfe thus wryteth in one of his Epistles to a friend of his Pâ—rplaceâ— mihi c. It pleaseth me very much that you wryte that priuate Conuents and assemblyes are to be made without the authority of Princes And againe in the said epistle Si pijs semper expectandum putas dum lupi vltro cedant c. Yf you thinke we must stay the delayes of godly men till the woulâ—es do freely depart or are driuen away by publyke authority I cannot yeald to your iudgment therein c. And if we had made such delayes What Churches should wee haue had at this day Thus far of the doctrines of Caluin and Beza in this poynt concerning both which in generall I will set downe the iudgment of therfore named D. Bancroft passed vpon them both who thus wryteth He that shall reede M. Caluins and M. Bezaes two bookes of Epistles c. Would certainly meruayle to vnderstand into what actions and dealings they put themselfs of war of peace of subiection of reformation without staying for the Magistrate Thus he Next we will come to kâ—ox who thus teacheth Reformation of Religion belorgeth to the Communalty God hath appoynted the Nobility to bridle the inordinate appetits of Princes Princes for iust cause may be deposed Finally Knox further auoucheth in these words Yf Princes be tyraâ—ts against God and his Truth their Subiects are freed from the oath of obedyence Of all which passages of Knoâ—see D. Bancroft in his booke of dangerous Positions Neither his Collegue Bucanan is lese sparing herein for thus he teacheth The People haue right to bestow the Crowne at their pleasure And yet with â—at more debasing spyte he thus egurgiâ—ates his veâ—ome It were good that rewards were appointed by the People for such 〈◊〉 should kill Tyrants as commonly there is for those which haue killed vulues Finally Bucanan affirmeth that People may arraigne their Prince Now in regard of these impious positions of Knox and Bucanan I fully approue and allow the graue sentence of the Bishop of Rochester who in his Sermon at Pooles Church termeth these two men The two fiery spirits of the Church and Nation of Scotland VICE-CHANCELOVR Michaeas Notwithstanding what you heere haue alleged touching strangers yet no part thereof conceâ—neth the Church of England or it Members Our Church remayning most incontaminate fâ—ee and spotles from the lâ—ast tuch of disloyalty And therefore what is by you as yet hearesaid concerneth vs litle you only discouering your Ignorance in misapplying other mens doctrines to vs who wholy disclayme from the same MICHAEAS M. Vice-Chancelour Pardon me if I heere do say you charge my Ignorance with greater Ignorance For first are not your Protestants of England of the same fayth and Religion with Luther Swâ—nglius Caluin Beza and the others aboue mentioned If you be not then haue you erected a new Protestant Church of late different from all Protestant Churches afore in Being If you be of the same fayth must you not then confesse that your Religion teacheth disobedience and disloyalty to your Prince Secondly it is ouer manifest that the Church of England I speake of some members thereof only not of all doth stand most chargeable with the same crime In proofe of which point I will produce the testimony of your former Archbishop of Canterbury D. Bancroft who in one of his Books thus confesseth of English Ministers concerning this point saying I omit their desperate courses of deposing Princes and putting them to death in diuers cases of resistance against reformation The generall summe was this That if the soueraigne Magistrate refuse to admit it the Ministers the inferiour Magistrate the People c. might set it oâ— fooâ—e themselues Of these and such like arguments diuers bookes he meaning made by English protestants were allowed by the Ministers of Geneua to be there then printed in English and to be published in England c. And againe the said Archbishop in an other of his Books speaking of the seditious English Protestants in Queene Maryes tyme thus writeth Goodman Whitingam Gilby the authour of the booke of Obedience with the rest of the Geneua Complices in Queene Maryes dayes urged all states by degrees rather to take armes and to reforme Religion themselues then to suffer such Idolatry Superstition remayne in the Land But to descend more particularly to this Goodman He was a forward Protestanâ— in Queene Maryes tyme did write a booke of this very subiect as D. Bancroft and D. Succliffe affirme Thus hereof he wryteth as D. Bancroft alleadgeth his sentences If Magistrats transgresse Gods Lawes and commanâ— others to do the like then haue they loâ—â— honour and obedience and ought no more to be taken for Magistrats but to be examined accused condemned c. And more It is not sufficient for subiects not to obâ—y the wicked Commandements of their wicked Princes but to withstand them also And yet more plainly Euill Princes ought by the lawes of God to be deposed To abbreuate this vnpleasing subiect there was also in the said times an other Booke made against the authority of Princes and entituled Of Obedience Which booke is much disliked by D. Bancroft and D. Succliffe in which booke we thus read Kings haue their authority from the People and by occasion the People may take it away agayne And more By the word of God in a manifest defection meaning of fayth and Religion a priuate Man hauing some speciall inward motion may kill a tyrant Marke you not how he doth Rauiliac it And finally It is lawfull to kill wicked Kings and Tyrants But I will wade no further in this argument For I much feare that the afore vnheard and now vnexpected recitall of the former Protestants doctrines is most displeasing to the eares of this honorable Iudge Only I must note that among the aboue mentioned Protestants some do speake with more respect and honour of Princes others with aâ—â— contempt and disgrace yet all of them alledged do with one the same eye or countenance indifferently looke vpon this principle to wit That Princes in some cases may be deposed such a dispacity we find in this their generally acknowledged Conclusion So in the pourtrayture of diuers mens faces we obserue great disproportion in one and the same proportion LORD-CHEIFE IVSTICE Michaeas I must confesse that these Doctrines of the former learned Protestants touching the deposing of Princes are most strange and indeede distastfull vnto me But it well may be that
by our Aduersaries doctrine as a part of the same Note But how can it be known whether the Word though truly preached be truly heard and beleiued with a final perseuerance So far distant is this pretended Note from being for our direction a true Note of the Church An other Argument for the impugning of the Protestants former Notes may be this The Scripture it selfe cannot be made knowne to vs to be Scripture but by the attestation of the Church for as for that sentence which teacheth that the Maiesty and voyce of God which appeareth in the Scripture or the Priuate Spirit iudging of it assâ—eth vs which is true Scripture it is an exploded Errour Seing one Man is persuaded he fyndeth in those books which himselfe admitteth for scripture that Maiesty and voyce of God the which very books for want of the said supposed voyce or Maiesty an other Man vtterly reiecteth as Apocryphil And in lyke sort the priuat Spirit of this Man embraceth such books as Canonical the which bookes the Priuat Spirit of an other absolutely discanoneth Now this being granted it from hence ineuitably resulteth that first we must know which is the true Church to giue this approbation of the Scripture before we can know which is the Scripture and much more then before we can be assured which is the true preaching of the word and sincere construction or Sense of the Scripture Now that our knowing which is Scripture proceedeth from the authoritie of the Church I first proue not only from S. Austin who saith n Actibus Apostolorum necesse est me credere si câ—edo Euangelio quoniam vtramque Scripturam similiter mihi Catholiea commendat Ecclesia But also from the acknowledgement of our learned Aduersaries whose words in their wrytings to this purpose are most plentifull I will content myselfe referring the Reader to the references of others at this tyme with Peeter Martyr and M. Hooker Peter Martyr thus wryteth We acknow ledge it to be the function of the Church seing it is endued with the Holy Ghost that it should discerne the true and proper books of Scripture M. Hooker more fully 〈…〉 th heare of saying Of thing necessary the very cheifest is to know what bookes we are to 〈◊〉 â—â—ly Which poynt is confessed impossible for the Scripture it selfe to teach c. For of any Booke of Scripture did geus testimony to â—ll et stiâ— that Scripture which geneth credit to the rest world require â—n other Scripture to gâ—ue credit vnto it Neither could we come to any paâ—se whe reon to rest vnles besids Scripture theare were something which might assurs vs. Which thiâ—g M. Hockeâ—man other place articulatly â—earmeth The authority of Gods Church thus saying We all know the 〈◊〉 outward Motyue leading Men to esteeme of the Scripture is the authority of the Church Now if by these learned Mens conâ—ession the Church hath authority to propownd to vs which bookes presented for Scripture are true Scriptures and which are Apocryâ— hall and spurious then followeth it that the Church hath in lyke sort authority to propownd to vs which is the true and pure sense of the Scripture since the one is as necessarye to vs as the other for it aduantageth vs litle to know which are the vndoubted bookes of Scripture if so we know not which is the true sense of the Scripture Now out of the Premisses I demonstratiuely conclude that seing by the authority of the Church and not otherwise we are tought which â—ookes of Scripture are Canonicall and consequently which is the true sense of the said Scripture that therefore the Church being fâ—ster in odeâ— of knowledg to vs then either the Scripture or the true preaching of the word of Scripture the true preaching of the word is not nor can be apprehended to be a Note to vs to find thearby which is the true Church Since then it would follow an absurdity incompatible with all true discours of Reason that a thing which to vs is later knowne should be a Note to vs of that which by vs is first knowne An other argument may be drawne from the Nature of euery true Note which ought to be so peculiar to that of which it is a Note as that it cannot be applyed in the iudgment of others to it meare Contrary But we see different sectaryes teaching contrary doctrynes and professing themselfs to be members of different Churches do all neuertheles promiscuously challenge the true preaching of the Words and the vse of the Sacrements to be the Notes of their so much discording Churches or Conuenticles And therefore the afore named Lubbertus thus truly pronounceth of this poynt Praedicatio Sacramentorum communicatio similia Ecclesiae essentiam non attingunt sunt enim Haereticorum conuerticulis veris Christianorum Ecclesiâ—s communia The preaching of the word the distribution of the Sacraments and such like do not belong to the essence of the Church since these things are common both to the Conuenticles of Hereticks and to the true Churches of Christians And according hearto we find by experience that Lutherans Protestants and PuritaÌ„s theaching most repugnante doctrines do wartant these their doctrines by the former Notes of preaching the Word And therefore it from hence followeth that it is no lesse a madnes in our aduersaries to prescrybe the preaching of the word and the vse of the Sacraments for the notes of the Church which are common to all Hereticall Conuenticles at least in their owne Opinion then for one who would discouer and note out one particular Man from all others to distinguish him from them by saying It is he who hath two eyes one nose one mouth two armes c. Since these Notes or description are common to all men in generall Againe I thus dispute A true Note of any thing ought to be at all tymes without discontinuance a Note theareof and not sometymes only since otherwise it is but a temporary Note But theare hath bene a Church of God euen then when there was no Scripture at all much lesse any preaching or interpretation of the Word Therefore the preaching of the word cannot be erected as a true Note of the Church The Assumption of this argument is manifest For it is acknowledged that the Church of God continued two thousand yeres before Moyses his tyme without any Scripture and therefore D. Parkins truly thus saith Morses was the first pennman of Holy Scripture With whom agree Zanchius D. Whitakers and all other learned Men whosoeuer Againe after Moyses had pened the Scripture it remayned only in the custody of the Iewes and was among them for many yeres lost as it is granted euen by the marginall annotations of the English Bibles of the yere 1576. where it is said That it was either by the negligence of the Priests lost or by the wickednes of idolatreus Kings And yet euen in those tymes Iob and
auncient Christians did follow Thus we see that this authority and words of Saint Basill simply a necessity of confession of our sinnes to the Priest and consequently a particular relation of them Saint Leo thus conspireth with Saint Basill Cum reatus conscientiarum sufficiat solis Sacerdotibus iudicari confessione sâ—creta c. Seing it is sufficient that the guiltines of our consciences be made knowne only to Priests in secret confession c. where you may see that confession of sinnes in those dayes was made secret and only vnto Priests Saint Austin thus agreeth with the former Fathers Non solum post paenitentiam c. Not only after Pennance is prescribed a Man ought to keepe himselfe from those vices but also before pennance whiles he is sound who if he should deferre it all his last end Nescit si ipsam pâ—nitentiam accipere Deâ— Sacerdoti peccata sua confiteri poterit He knoweth not whether he shall haue power to receaue his pennance and to confesse his sinnes to God and to a Priest S. Cyprian thus wryteth of this poynt quantò fide maiore timore meliore sunt qui quantumâ—â—uis nullo sacrifiâ—ij aut libelli faciâ—ore constricti quontam tomen de hoc vel cogitauerunt hoc ipsum apud Sacerdotes Dei volenter simpliciter confidentes exomologesni conscientiae faciunt animi pondus expenum salutâ—rem meaelam paruis licet modicis vulneribus exquirunt How much more greater fayth and better feare haue they who though they be not guilty of any cryme touching Sacrifice or giuing vp a Libel yet because they had such a conceate or thought they do with greiffe and simplicity confesse this to Priests c. Thus do they disburden their consciences and seeke to apply a healthfull remedy to their small wounds Now heere by the words Sacrifice and Libel are to be vnderstood sacrifizing to Idolls in the tymes of the Heathen Emperours and giuing vp their names in a booke that they were content to sacrifize To be short Tertullian thus sayth of this custome of confessing our sinnes to a Priest Plerosque hoc opus aut subfugere aut de die in diem differie presumo pudorâ—â— magis memores quam salutis velut illi qui in partibus verecundieribus corporis contracta vaxatione scientiam Medentium vitant ita cum eâ—â—bescentia sua pereunt I do presume that diuers do eyther anoyd this worke meaning of confessine their sinnes or do deferre 〈◊〉 from day to day being more mindfull of their shame then of their health They being heerein like to those Men who hauing some disâ—â—se in their more secret parts of their body do flee the cure of Physitians and so they perish through their owne shame Thus Tertullian from whose testimony is necessarily euicted particular confession of our priuat sinnes euen according to the nature of his similitude heere vsed This point of the auncient Fathers iudgment touching confession of our particular sinnes to a Priest is so deere and manifest that the Centurists discoursing of the vse thereof in those former tymes thus plainly acknowledge Si quis paenitentiam agebant peccatum prius confirebantur ac enim confessionem magnoperè Tertullianus vrget in libro de Pâ—nitentia institutem fuisse priuatam Confessionem qua delicta cogitata praua confessisunt ex aliquot Cypriani locis apparet c. Yf any in those tymes did pennance they did first confesse there sinnâ—e for thus doth Tertullian mightely vrge Confession in his booke de Paenitentia And that priuate Confession was then in vse by the which sinnes euen wicked thoughts were confessed appeareth from certaine places of Cyprian to wit out of his fift sermon de Lapsis lib. 3. Epist epist 14. and 16. Thus farre the Centurists all eminent Protestants who we see do grant that in those tymes euen priuat thoughts much more particular actuâ—ll sinnes were accustomed to be confessed Which Centurists do further witnesse that the Priest did in those tymes absolue the penitent besides by pronouncing the words of Absolution with the Ceremony of imposing her hand a ceremony which at this very day is vsed by the Priests And thus My Honorable Lord and you M. Vice-Chancelour you both may from hence perceaue how neere to the Apostles dayes Confession of particular sinnes euen by the acknowledgment of the Protestants was vsually practized Which point being granted it must by force of all Reâ—son follow that Christ did first institute this Sacrament of Confession and the Apostles did first exercize their authority therein giuen to them by Christ Since otherwise it cannot probably be conceaued that a dogmaticall point of fayth and Religion so crosse and repugnant to Mans nature as Confession is could in so short a tyme inuade the whole Church of God without any contradiction or resistance VICE-CHANCELOVR Michaeas you haue spoken much in warrant of ConfessioÌ„ and Asolution geuen by the Pryest But the question in regard of your former alledged authorityes is not so much whether Confession of particular sinns was generally taught by those auncient Fathers as whether they had iust reason and warrant so to teach But I will passe no censure of them touching this point But Michaeas what do you say to that assumed authority and priuiledge which you Pryests vendicate to yourselfes in the sacrifice of the Masse Wheare you bease the people in hand that you sacrifize and offer vp the true and naturall body and bloud of Christ to his Father I am assured that the auncient Church of God cannot affoard you any example hereof And the rather since it is manifest that the doctrine of Transubstantiation vpon which your doctrine of sacrifice is grounded was first brought into the Church at the Councell of Lateran by Innocentius the third Which Councell was houlden anno â—215 And therefore it was celebrated many hundred yeres after the Period of the Primatiue Church MICHAEAS M. Vice-Chancelour The sequâ—le will show of what Antiquitie the doctrine is conceâ—ning the sacrifice of the body and bloud of Christ Which is dayly offered vp by the Priest But first I will take away your stumbling block touching the name of Transubstantiation imposed by the Councell of Lateran For the better remouall whereof you are to conceaue that the doctrine of the reâ—ll being of Christs body and bloud in the Sacrament of the 〈◊〉 and Sacrifice of the Masse was taught in all the precedentages though the word Transubstantiation for the better explicating of the doctryne was then and not before inuented Euen as the doctrine of the Trinity was eueâ— in the first infancy of the Church generally beleeued yet the word Trinity was first imposed vpon the doctrine by Councell of Nice But to proceede further touching the Antiquity of the doctryne of the sacrifice of the Masse We first answeare herto that it receaued it first institution and beginning euen from the night before the
seemes full gorged against the Pope as presumed by you to be Antichrist But let that for the tyme passe Do all you Protestants M. Doctour agree together touching the tyme of Antichrists first comming and consequently touching the supposed change in Fayth wrought by Antichrist his comming D. VVHITAKERS No. For I hould with our reuerent Man Beza who teacheth that Leo who was Pope anno Domi. 440. did clearely breath forth the arrogancy of the Antichristian Sea And therfore my constant Tenet is that Leo was a greate Architect of the Antichristian kingdome But some few other Protestants hould seuerall wayes herof CARD BELLARM. Some few M. Doctour not so but very many of them maintaine different and contrary Opinions touching the tyme of Antichrist his first coÌ„ming And first MelaÌ„cthon Bucer free the Pope from being Antichrist and do teach that the Turke is as Bucer speaketh ipsissimus Antichristus with whom in iudgment herin conspireth M. Fox Iunius that remarkable Protestant teacheth that Hildebrand who was Pope anno 1074. was the first Antichrist with whom D. Downham seemeth to agree in these words Gregory the seauenth alias Hildeb and was the first of the Popes who was openly acknowledged to be Antichrist Bullinger affirmeth he came in anno 763. he therfore tearming that yeare the fa all yeare D. Fulke and D. Williâ— place his comming in Anno 607. And make Boniface the third to be the first Antichrist with whome in iudgment herein your selfe M. Doctour forgetting as it should seeme what elsewhere you haue taught touching Leo conspire in these wordes Gregory the Great was the last true and holy Bishop of that Church c. And therfore because our Aduersaries demand of vs the tyme when Antichrist first came in we designe and set downe to them the very time of his comming But M. Napper ascendeth higher affirming Antichrist to haue first comme in Anno Domini 313. He teathing that Siluester the Pope was the first Antichrist Yet the Reformed Churches of Transiluania giue a greater antiquity of Antichrists first coÌ„ming placing it in the yeare 200. But Sebastianus Francus no obscure Protestant out-strippeth all his former Brethren for he ascribes Antichrists comming to the times immediatly following the Apostles thus writing for certaine through the worke of Antichrist the externall Church together with the Faith and Sacraments vanished away presently after the Apostles departure See how this high swelling riuer of Heresie for I do hold this sentence that the Pope is Antichrist to be no lesse then Hereticall is fed with the smale streames of eich mans particuler and different opinions which opinions though mainly dissenting in themselues yet most of them proceede from one generall source of the Protestants malice and hatred against the Pope and Church of Rome and therefore their iudgments herein must be more imperfect and deceaueable for as the eye seeth not aâ—ight except the species and formes of the thing seene do fall vpon the eye ad angulos rectos as the Optists do speake So here mans vnderstanding cannot apprehend any thing truly as long as is wanteth it owne naturall rectitude straightnes which is euer free from all obliquity of preiudice and Passion MICHEAS The variety of doctrin touching the comming of Antichrist is most wounderfull and far greater by many degrees then the diuersity of opinions amonge vs Iewes who was husband to Esther or at what tyme Iudith did liue And indeede I euer promised to my selfe before this time to haue found a far greater concordance of iudgment in this point amonge the Protestants then now I do finde D. WHITTAKERS I am not to defend eich Mans different opinions herein and I grant if any of these be true all the rest are false But it is sufficient to prooue that antichrist is come and that by his comming this great change in Faith and Religion was first then wrought in the Church of Rome and as touching the difficulty of proouing the circumstances of his first comming it importeth little seing here we are to remember to speake by allusion that it is easy to prooue that we see but hard to prooue how we see CARD BELLARM. I do not looke M. Doctour that you should make good all the former contraric opinions for it is impossible to iustify but any one of them Neuerthelesse it is a weake kynd of proofe to say only in grosse that Antichrist is already come and with his comming this so great a presumed chang in Faith was first brought in where you haue no more reason to allow of the particuler tyme of his comming by your selfe designed then your former Brethren haue for the fortifying of eich ones seuerall iudgment therin Only the disparity which I finde betweene them and you is this That euery one of them do set downe one only particuler tyme of Antichrist his comming and content themselues therwith wheras you M. Doctour imitating herin the skilfull Pilot who constantly changeth his sayles with the vnconstant winds for your best aduantage as it most fittingly sorts to your purpose in hand sometimes will haue his comming to be in Pope Leo to wit in the yeare 440. at other tymes in Boniface the third which is in anno 607. So you making a great Parenthesis as I may say of a hundred and fifty yeares at least betweene your two different sentences of Antichrist his comming But to returne to the force of this my argument drawne from the Protestants different and contrary Opinions touching the first reigne of Antichrist Here then I say seeing ther are among the Protestants so many contrary and irrecoÌ„cileable sentences of Antichrist his first entrance at what tyme this supposed chang of Fayth in the Church of Rome is sayd to haue bin effected And seeing that not any one of these different iudgments haue more warrant and authority for its supporting then any other of theÌ„ hath Therfore by force of all reason we may conclude that all there sentences herin are false and that Antichrist is not yet come and thus out of falsehood we may extract truth so consequently we may deduce that no chang of Fayth hath bin yet wrought in the Church of Rome by the said Antichrist Therfore I will coÌ„clude this argument with the more retired dispassionate and warie iudgments of some other of your learned Protestants to wit of that eminent Protestant Zanchius of Franciscus Lambertus no ordinary Man among you and of some others who Peremptorily affirme against all their former Brethren that Antichrist is not yet come MICHEAS For my part I must needs confesse that I do beleiue that Antichrist is not yet come For besides diuers other reasons vrged by vs Iewes in proofe therof those words of Daniell concerniug Antichrist his continuance to wit tempus tempora dimidium temporis were euer by all learned Iewish Rabbins interpreted literally and plainly to
Lyons And did professe as D. Humfrey affirmeth a kind of Monasticall life And finally labored to Pope Innocentius the third to haue their Order confirmed but could not preuayle as Vspergensis witnesseth in his Chronicle Secondly The Heresyes mantayned by VValdo and his followers are such as that you M. D. in regard of their defence of them cannot challenge them for Protestants For first they taught that maryed Persons mortally sinned in hauing the Act of Matrimony without hope of Procreation as testifyeth Illyricus the Protestant They also did hould all embracements marke this gotishe doctrine and things donne aboue the girdle as touching kissing words compression of the papps c. to be done in charity They further taught that neither Priests nor ciuill Magistrats being guilty of mortall sinne did enioy their dignity or were to be obeyed That Laymen and VVomen might consecrate and preach That Clergy Men ought to haue no possessions That men ought not to sweare in any case They went to the Catholicke Churches dissemblingly confessed communicated dissemblingly Finally to omit some others they condemned all Princes and Iudges And thus far M. D. and you two learned Men to proue that VValdo and his followers were no Protestants though it is not denyed but that some one poynt or other of protestancy they might mantaine and consequently that the example of them is defectiue to proue the Visibility of the Protestant Church in their dayes NEVSERVS But what say you Michaeas of the Albigenses and the rest aboue mentioned by M. Doctour Were not all they Protestants MICHAEAS I grant they are marshalled among Protestants by D. Fulke and D. Abbots But here M. D. you are either deceaued or which I thinke not intend to deceaue For here the Albigenses are brought for shew only of greater variety of dishes the better to furnish the table of Protestancy Whereas indeede they were of the same Sect with the Waldenses or rather the same Men according to the iudgments of D. Abbots and D. Fulke For D. Abbots thus writeth These Leonists or poore Men of Lyons and waldenses and Albigenses were the same Men but diuersly and vpon diuers occasions tearmed by the Romish Sinagogue And D. Fulke sayth the same in these words They are called the VValdenses by the vulgar Papists as also by others they are named the poore Men of Lyons Leonists Albigenses or by what other name it pleased the Sycophants of Antichrist Now these Albigenses be who they will eyther the same with the Waldenses or not as they mantayned some points of Protestancy so with all euen by the testimony of Osiander the Protestant they taught diuers execrable Heresyes The words of Osiander are these Albigensibus dogmata haec attribuuntur Duo esse principia Deum videlicet bonum Deum malum hoc est Diabolum c. These opinions are ascribed to the Albigenses That there are two Principles to wit a good God and a bad God which is the Deuill and who created all bodyes as the good God did all soules c. They do reiect Baptisme and they say to go to Churches and to pray in them is not profitable c. They condemne Mariage do allow as holy promiscuous concubitus al promiscuous lying togeather how wicked soeuer c. Thy deny the resurrectiō of the body that Christ was true Man Thus far Osander who also sayth The opinions of the Albigenses are absurd wicked hereticall finally tearmeth their spirits an Anabaptisticall furye And D. Cowper of Winchester maketh like mention of their absurd Heresyes A point so acknowledged that D. Iewell wholy disclaymeth from the Albigenses as Protestants saying thus plainly They be none of ours Touching the Apostolici or Henricians they are so far from beinge Protestants as that they are acknowledged for Heretyks by D Fulke D. Iewel and Osiander who reports their Heresyes But to proceed forward to other of your Examples Peter Bruis is censured for an Hereticke by Osiander and Hospinian who relates his Heresyes Almaricus his Heresies are reported by Osiander himselfe reiected for an Hereticke and not acknowledged for a Protestant by the said Osiander neyther by D. Iewell who speaking of the Albigenses the Apostolici and Almaricus saith as before they be none of ours And thus far Gentlemen touching the VValdenses the Albigenses the Apostolici or Henricians Peter Bruis and Almaricus D. REYNOLDS I see no reason but that we may be iustly distrustfull in giuing ouer much credit to the wryting of former tymes which charge the Waldenses Albigenses and the rest with the Heresyes by you recited And if such wrytings were eyther false in himselfs o◠but forged only through deceate and confederacy of their Enemyes then may the said Men well be reputed for true and perfect Protestants MICHAEAS If you M. D. be so diffident as that contrary to the iudgment of Osiander Hospinian and other Prtestants you will not beleiue the writings of former tymes charging Waldo and the rest in this passage or discourse mentioned with the Heresyes afore alleadged then what colour can you pretend why you should giue Credit to those Writings of the same tyme which affirme that the foresaid Men beleiued certaine Opinions of Protestancy And therefore it followeth by force of all Reason that such Writings affirming both the one and the other are eyther ioyntly to be beleiued and credited or ioyntly to be reiected as false and forged And the rather seing the Reporters of those tymes did impartially and indifferently recite and condemne all those opinions wherein the foresaid Hereticks dissented from the Church of Rome without any foreknowledge which of the said Opinions would eyther be approued or reiected by Men of this age So weake you see M. D. is this your Replye OCHINVS I am of iudgment that the VValdenses and the rest can 〈…〉 truly be reputed for Protestants in regard of the reasons alledged by you Michaas And I do hould that your last reply M. D. touching the vncertainty of the credit of those wrytings charging the VValdenses and all the other with Heresyes is most firmely auoyded by Michaas NEVSERVS I am of the same iudgement with Ocbinus herein And the truth is we do much wrong the honour of our Church by pretending such vnworthy Men for members thereof But proceede M. D. to higher tymes D. REYNOLDS In the precedent ages to these former if credit may be giuen to authenticall Historyes there were not only many Protestants but euen seuerall Bookes then written in defence of the Protestant Religion As the Authour of the Booke written against Images in the name of Carolus Magnus Bertram Vlrick Berengarius c. All or any of which to denye to haue bene Protestants were to infringe all authority of Ecclesiasticall History MICHAEAS There are not any of these you haue named as much I may
amazement to see in a most noble Country where the Ghospell which forbiddeth all Rapine is presumed to be truly preached that men free not borne Bondslaues should thus in body and state only for feare of offending God and desire of sauing their soules lye prostrate to the depradations robberyes of certaine hungery Refuse and Outcasts of men who make show at least though wrongfully to warrant all these their pillages by force of the statute Law though otherwise prohibited by all Diuine and humane Law Si est dolor sicut dolor horum And if it fortune that any Priest be taken or Recusants do appeare then is the Pryest assured and the Catholicks in danger to be committed to a darke and loathsome prison there to remayne the Priest sometymes in fettars so long as it shall please the subordinate Magistrate His Maiesty who is most proue to mercy pitty and commiseration being wholy ignorant of such outrages and proceedings But My Lord. How base so euer the Priests Catholicks of England seeme to be in the eyes of their Aduersaryes yet no doubt their state is most gratefull through this their imprisonment in the sight of God and honorable in the iudgment of all foraine Catholicke nations who in regard of the others endurance may iustly apply to the said imprisoned Priests Catholicks that sentence of a most auncient Father Carcer habet tenebras sed lumen estis ipsi habet vincula sed vos soluti Deo estis triste illic expirat sed vos odor estis suauitatis LORD CHEIFE-IVSTICE Theese exorbitancyes of proceedings Michaeas whereof you speake if any such be the Law chastizeth and the Offendours are punishable neither doth the supreme Magistrat geue allowance of them Yet heare Michaeas you are to remember that though wrong be not to be recompensed with wrong and Cruelty with Iniustice The tymes haue bene I meane in the reigne of Queene Marie When the Professours of our Religion did not only suffer losse of Goods but euen death itselfe And therefore there appeareth lesse reason why you Romanists should so tragically complayne at your present afflictions Since in so doing you are lyke to those Men who perpeâ—rate impietyes yet expostulate of Wrong MICHAEAS Indeede my Lord I grant that this is the vulgar recrimination often vrged and reinforced by the Protestants for the more depressing of our pressures in the eye of others yet though I will not vndertake the defence of all the procedures of those tymes myselfe being a stranger both to the Nation and to the affayres of those dayes Neuerthelesse let it not be offensiue vnto you my honerable Lord if I vnfould the reason why such actions in that Queens tyme may stand lesse subiect to the censure of an iniustifiable punishment then theese in the dayes of Queene Elizabeth and since The reason is this In Q. Marâ—es tyme the Professours of any Religion different from the Catholicke and Roman Religion were punished by certaine Canon and Imperiall Lawes made by most auncient Popes Emperours they not then hauing any forknowledg that Protestancy should rather sway in these dayes then any other erroneous fayth And this they did in regard that all such different Religions were reputed and â—oulden as Innouations and most repugnant to the auncient Catholicke fayth Now that ProtestaÌ„cy was to be accounted in Queenes Maryes reigne a mere Innouation in faith as well as any other sect appeareth euen from the free acknowledgment of the learned Protestants who teach expressly that for theese foureteene or fyfteene hundred yeeres the ProtestaÌ„t fayth was neuer so much as heard or thought of till Luthers dayes I will heare content myselfe for greater breuity with the authorityes of two or three Protestants Do we not then find M. Parkins thus to coÌ„fesse hereof For many hundred yeres our Church was not visible to the World an vniuersal Apostasy ouer spreading the whole face of the Earth And doth not Sebastianus Francus the Protestant confesse the same in theese words For certaine the externall Church togeather with the Sacramenti vanished away presently after the Apostles departure and that for theese foureteene hundred yeres the Church hath not beene externall and Visible In lyke sort D. Fulke speaking of the Protestant Church doth he not thus wryte The true Church decayed immediatly after the Apostles tymes A verity confessed by Luther hymselfe thus vaunting of his owne supposed true faith Christum anobis primo vulgaâ—um audemus gloriari We dare boast that Christ was first preached by vs. Thus then we see that Protestancy was punished in Q. Maryes reigne as an Innouation in fayth and religion neuer afore that tyme dreamed of But now the case is farre otherwise touching the afflictions layed vpon the Catholicks for professing of their fayth since they are punished by certaine Parlamental statuts only decreed not past some threescore yeres since by the authority of a Woman Prince against a religion which by the learned Aduersaries lyke acknowledgment hath possessed all Christendome theese many hundred yeres and indeed so many hundred yeres as the Protestant Church is confessed by them to haue bene latent and inuisible And therefore those statâ—â—s were decreed not against the Catholicke Religion as against an Innouation but as against the till then only and sole Religion professed by all the Christiaâ—s through out the whole world To this end we find M. Napper a learned Protestant thus acknowledging Betweene the yeres of Christ 300. and 316. the Antichristian Papisticall reigne began reigning vniuersally without any debatible contradiction one thousand two hundred sixty yeres And as conspiring with the former Protestant herein the Centurists do euen from the tymes of Constantyne charge both hym and euery age and Century since till Luthers dayes with the Profession of our present Roman Religion Thus now your Lordship may clearly discouer the greate disparity betwene the proceedings of Queene Mary and Q. Elizabeth Since in the former Queens tyme the Lawes wheareby Sectaries were punished for their Religion were instituted many hundred yeres since In this later Q. raigne the Statuts were first made at the beginning of her comming to the Crowne which is yet in the memory of eich Man being but of reasonable greate yeres Those lawes were enacted by Popes and generall â—ouncells to whose charge and incumbency the burden of Religion is peculiarly by God committed secunded otherwise by the secular authority of Emperours and particularly of 〈◊〉 Valentinian and Marcian Theese were first inuented by a Woman and a Parlament of Lay Persons the incompetent iudges of fayth and Religion Breifly by the former Decrees a Religion confessed by the cheife Professours of it to be neuer heard of at lest for foureteene hundred yeres together and thearefore to be an innouation of fayth which is held by Catholicks to be a destruction of fayth necessary to Soules health is interdicted and prohibited By theese later