was neuer hereticke so abhominable but that he had some truth to cloke hys falshode should hys vntruths and blasphemies driue vs from the possession of that which he holdeth truely no not the Deuill hym selfe saying that * God had geuen his angels charge ouer his can thereby wring this sentence from vs why we should not both beleue it and speake it being a necessary truth to beleue and speake You may as wel say we are Anabaptists because we say there is but one God as they did one Christ as they did c. And heere I will geue the reader a tast of your Logike that you make so much of in your boke The Anabaptists say that the churches ought to chuse their minister and not the magistrate And you say so Therfore you are Anabaptists or in the way to Anabaptisme The Anabaptists complained that the Christians vsed not their authoritie in excommunication And so do you complaine Therfore you are Anabaptists or in the way to them I will not lay to your charge that you haue not learned Aristotles Priorums which sayth it is asystaton as often as the meane in any syllogisme is cōsequent to both the extremes But haue you not learned that whych Seton or any other halfepenny Logik telleth you that you can not conclude affirmatiuely in the second figure and of thys sort are euery one of your surmises contained in thys Treatise whych you entitle an exhortation c. And if I liked to make a long boke of little matter as you do I would thus gather your argumēts out of euery brasich whych you ascribe as common vnto vs wyth the Anabaptists as you make adoe vpon euery place whych is quoted by the admonition to the Parliament But answer I pray you in good faith are you of that iudgement that the ciuill magistrate should ordaine ministers Or that there should be no excommunication whych we know was in the primitiue and is vsed in certaine the Heluetian churches If you be your controuersy is not so much wyth vs as wyth the byshops whych both call ministers and excommunicate If you be not why is that Anabaptisticall in vs whych is christian and catholike in you and why do you go about to bring vs in hatred for those things whych you do no more alow then these whom you thus endeuor to discredite We do not say that there is no lawfull or no ordinary calling in England for we do not deny but that he maye be lawfully called whych is not ordinarily as M. Luther Melancthon Zuinglius Oecolampadius c. and there be places in England where the ministers are called by their parishes in such sorte as the examples of the scripture do shew to haue bene done before the eldershyp and gouernment of the church be established I know not any that saith that the gospel is not truely preached in Englande and by those also that are not of the same iudgement that the Admonition to the Parliament is of But if it be sayd that it is not generally of euery one of them and in all poynts or not so oftē or not there where their duety bindeth them and they are called vnto or not so sincerely or wythout mixture as it oughte to be then there is nothing sayde but that which we feare may be too easely proued If it be sayde of some that in certaine there are found some of those things that were reprehēded in the Phariseis what is that to proue that they be Anabaptistes y speake it Your selfe in one place of your booke call the authors of the Admonition and their fauourers Phariseis who do all thyngs to be seene of men and therefore they sighe and holde downe their heades c. and thys you speake against them that preache the gospell Therefore by your reason you geue sentence of Anabaptisme against your selfe You promised you would not wryte one worde wherof you had not your author for it First you haue peruerted the meaning of the Anabaptists in that wherein they accused the godly ministers that they were not according to that whych is wrytten in the third of the first Epistle to Timothe and all because you would multiply the nōbre of your likelyhodes For they charged the ministers by that place of dissolutenes and losenes of lyfe and corruption of manners and we alledge it to proue that they should be able to teache and instruct against the dumbe ministery that is abrode But that which followeth vttereth not only great vntruth and falsification of the author but sheweth a minde desirous to slaunder and sory as it seemeth that those whych you so greeuously discredite are no liker the Anabaptists then they be I will sette downe the wordes as they are wrytten in the. 102. leafe that it may appeare howe faithfully you haue dealt Libere enim dicunt concionatores qui stipendium accipiunt non esse veros Dei ministros neque posse docere veritatem sed esse ventris ministros qui otiose accipiant ingentia stipendia ex illis rebus que simulachris immolate fuerunt ex diuitiis splendide luxuriose viuant cum tamen Christus dixit gratis accepistis gratis date prohibuit duas tunicas peram pecuniam habere Preterea Paulum aiunt manibus suis laborasse mandasse reliquis vt idem faciant itaque concludunt nulla debere stipendia habere sui officii sed laborare gratis ministrare quiahoc non faciunt non posse ipsos veritatem docere They say freely speaking of the Anabaptists that the preachers whych take stipends can not be the true ministers of God nor teache the truthe but are ministers of the belly whych to liue idlely take great stipendes of those things whych were offered to images and doe of their riches liue gorgeously and riotously when notwithstanding Christe sayde ye haue receiued freely geue freely and for bad them to haue two coates or a scrip or money Besides that they say that Paule laboured with hys owne handes and gaue commaundement to the rest of the ministers that they should do so and therefore they conclude that they should haue no stipende for their office but laboure and minister for nought and because they doe not so they can not teache the truthe Nowe let all men iudge whether it be one thing to say that they ought not to haue stipends that labor not or to say as the Anabaptists sayd that it was not lawfull to haue any stipende or to say they coulde not teach truely because they had great liuings or because they had any liuings at all Although I neuer red nor heard any of those that you meane saye that those whych had great stipends and liuings could not preach truely It may be that diuers haue sayd that it were meete the ministers should be content wyth competent stipends and that the ouerplus of that myght go to the supply of the wants of other ministers liuings and to the maintenance
hand as fast as you builde with the other But to answere directly to the place of the fifthe of the first to Timothe I saye first that S. Paule wryteth to Timothe and therefore instructeth hym what he should do for his parte in the appoynting of the minister If he had written to the whole Churche of Ephesus he would lykewise haue instructed them how they should haue behaued thē selues in that businesse If one do wryte vnto hys frende that hath interest in any election to take heede that he chuse none but such as are meete shall any man conclude therupon that none hath to doe in that election but he to whom that letter is writtē Then I say further that S. Paule attributeth that vnto Timothe that was common to moe with hym because he being the director and moderator of the election is sayde to doe that whiche many doe which thing I haue proued by dyuers examples both out of the scripture and otherwise before And euen in this imposition of handes it is manifestly to be shewed For that where as S. Paule sayth in the 2. Epistle that Timothe was ordayned by the putting on of hys hands vppon hym in the first Epistle he sayth that he was ordayned by the putting on of the handes of the eldership So that that which he in one place taketh to him selfe alone in the other he communicateth with moe And that he dyd it not him selfe alone it may appeare by those wordes which folow and communicate not with other mens sinnes as if he should saye if other will ordeyne insuffycient ministers yet be not thou caryed away with their example And further that his authoritie was equall with other elders of that church and that he had no superioritie aboue his fellowes it may appeare for that he sayth lay thy hands rashly of none where if he had had authoritie ouer the rest he would rather haue sayd suffer none to lay his handes rashly Agayne it is a fault in you that you can not distinguishe or put difference betweene the election and imposition of handes Last of all I answere that although this might agree to Timothe alone as in deede it can not yet it followeth not that euery Bishop may do so For Timothe was an Euangelist which was aboue a Bishop as hereafter shall better appeare And it is an euill argument to say the greater may do it therfore the lesse may do it The superiour therfore the inferioure If you were at any cost with producing your witnesses you should not be so vnwise to be so lauishe of them as to cite Ambrose and Chrisostome to proue a thing that none hath euer denyed For who denyeth that S. Paule doth not geue warning to Timothe to be circumspect If you meane to vse their testimonie to proue that he only made the elections they saye neuer a word for you if there be any thing cite it To the place of Titus I answere as to that of Timothe for there is nothing there but agreeth also to thys place And as for Ierome he hath nothing in that place as he hath in no other to proue that to the Bishop only doth belong the right of election of the minister I haue shewed you reasons before why it cā not be so taken of the sole election of the Bishop the church being shutte out If authoritie woulde doe any good in thys behalfe as it seemeth it ought seeing that all your proofe throughe out the whole booke is in the authorities of men which Aristotle calleth atechnas peiseis vncunning proofes I coulde sende you to maister Calum which teacheth that it is not to be thought that S. Paule woulde permit to Titus to ordayne byshoppes and ministers by hys owne authoritie when he hym selfe would not take so much vpon hym but ioyned hys with the voyces of the church But he peraduenture sauoureth not your tast and yet you woulde make men beleue sometimes that you make muche of hym if you can gette but one worde vnioynted and racked in peeces from the rest to make good your part If hee weyghe not with you you haue maister Musculus whome you take to bee a great patrone of youres in thys cause which dothe with greater vehemencie affirme the same thing that mayster Caluin sayth asking whether any man can beleeue that Paisle permitted in thys place to Titus or in the place before alledged to Timothe that they shoulde ordayne of theyr owne authoritie and by them selues when as Paule woulde not doe it but by the voyces and election of the churche In the ende you say it is the generall consent of all the learned fathers that it belongeth to the byshop to chuse the minister Because you acquaint my eares with such bolde and vntrue affirmations I can now the more paciently heare you thus vaunting your selfe as though you had all the fathers by heart and caryed them about with you wheresoeuer you went whereas if a man woulde measure you by the skill in them which you haue shewed heere he woulde hardly beleeue that you had redde the tenthe part of them Are all the learned fathers of that mynde I thinke then you would haue bene better aduised then to haue sette downe but one when as you know a matter in controuersie will not be tryed but by two or three witnesses vnlesse the Lord speake hym selfe and therefore you geue me occasion to suspect that because you cite but one you know of no more now let vs see what your one witnesse will depose in thys matter And fyrst of all you haue done more wisely then simply in that you haue altered Ieromes wordes For where hee sayeth wherein doth a byshoppe differ from an elder but only in ordayning you say a byshop doth excell all other mynisters c. I report me heere vnto your conscience whether you dyd not of purpose chaunge Ieromes hys sentēce because you wold not let the reader vnderstand what oddes is betweene S. Ieromes bishops in his dayes betwene our Lord Bishoppes For then the byshop had nothing aboue an elder or other minister but only the ordayning of the minister Now he hath a thousande parishes where the minister hath but one For the matters also of the substaunce of the ministerie the bishop now excommunicateth which the minister can not absolueth or receyueth into the church which the minister can not Besides diuers other things which are meere ciuill which the byshop doth and which neither byshop nor other minister ought to doe I say I reporte me to your conscience whether you altered Ieromes wordes to thys ende that you would keepe thys from the knowledge of your reader or no. For answere to the place it is an euill argument to saye the byshop had the ordayning of the minister Ergo he had the election of hym the contrary rather is a good argument the byshop had the ordayning of the minister therefore he had not the election of hym For ordination
not worth the noting The Apostles dyd beare with the infirmitie of the Iewes addicted to the obseruation of the ceremoniall law yet they neuer alowed that infirmitie and they were so farre from approuing it by subscribing that they wrote agaynst it Those sayth M. D. which authorized thys booke were studious of peace and of building of Christes church therefore they that speake agaynst it which hee calleth defacing are disturbers of the peace and destroyers of the church So I will reason Gedeon was studious of peace and of building of the churche therefore they whiche spake agaynst the Ephod which he made were disturbers of the peace and destroyers of the church We speake agaynst images in churches and consubstantiation in the sacramentes and such lyke which Luther being studious of peace and of the building of the church dyd holde and yet we are not therfore disturbers of peace or destroyers of the church Although they were excellent personnages yet their knowledge was in part although they brought many things to our light yet they being sent out in the morning or euer the sunne of the gospell was rysen so hygh might ouersee many things which those that are not so sharpe of fight as they were may see for because that which they want in the sharpnes of sight they haue by the benefite and clearenesse of the sun and of the light They sealed not the booke of seruice with their bloud as M. Doctor sayeth for some that suffred for the truth declared openly theyr myslyking of certayne thinges in it and as for the other they coulde neuer dye for that booke more then for the lyturgie vsed in the Frenche churche or at Geneua For they receiued not the sentence of condemnation because they approued that booke but because they improued the articles drawne out of the masse booke And if they had dyed for that booke as in deede they dyed for the booke of God yet the authoritie of theyr martyrdome coulde not take away from vs thys lyberty that we haue to enquire of the cause of theyr death Iustin and Cyprian were godly martyrs yet a man may not say that they sealed their errors which they wrote with theyr bloud or with thys glory of their martyrdome preiudice those which speake or wryte agaynst their erroures for thys is to oppose the bloud of men to the bloud of the sonne of god For the papistes triumph I haue answeared before and I will not striue about the Goates wolle who is the opponent who the respondent in thys difference From the. 151. page vnto the. 171. page all is answeared where these things which are heere ioyned are seuerally handled now vnto that in the. 171. and. 172. pages I answere the although it be meete that as we hope that the homylies which are made already be godly so those that shall be made hereafter shall be lykewise yet considering the mutabilitie of men and that oftentymes to the worse it is not meete nay it is merely vnlawfull to subscribe to a blancke seeing that wee can not witnesse or allow of those things which we haue not sene nor heard The place vnto the Corinthes is the same vnto the Romanes and M. Doctor approuing one hath no cause to fynde fault with the other For the homylies first of all I haue shewed how absurde a saying and how vnlyke a dyuine it is to match reading of homylies with preaching of sermons For if the reading of the holy scriptures is nothing so fruitefull as the preaching of them muche lesse is the reading of homylies to be for their frute matched with preaching of sermons There remayneth that I shew briefely that neyther the homylies nor the Apochripha are at all to be red in the churche Wherein first it is good to consider the order which the Lorde kept with hys people in tymes past when he commaunded that no vessell nor no instrument eyther beesome or flesh hooke or pan c. shuld come into the temple but those only which were sanctifyed sette apart for that vse And in the booke of Numbers he will haue no other trumpets blowne to cal the people together but those only which were set apart for y purpose What should the meaning of thys law be The matter of other common vessels trumpets was the same oftentimes which theirs was the same forme also the other beesomes and hookes and trumpets hable to serue for the vses of sweeping and sounding c. as well as those of the temple and as those which were set aparte wherfore mought not these then as well be vsed in the temple as others Forsothe because the Lord would by these rudiments and pedagogie teache that he would haue nothing brought into the church but that which he had appoynted no not althoughe they seemed in the iudgement of men as good as those things which God him selfe had placed there Which thing is much more to be obserued in this matter seeing that the homilies red be they neuer so learned and pithye neyther the Apochrypha are to be compared either in goodnes within thēselues eyther in frute or in effect towardes the hearer wyth the authenticall scriptures of god Now if a man will say that the Homilies do explane lay open the scriptures I answer that the word of God also is plain and easy to be vnderstanded and such as giueth vnderstanding to idiotes to the simple And if there be hardnes in them yet the promise of the assistance of Gods spirite that God hath giuen to the reading of the scriptures in the church whych he hath not giuen to homilies or to the Apochrypha will be able to weigh wyth the hardnes and to ouercome it so that there shall easely appeare greater profit to come vnto the church by reading of the scriptures then by reading of homilies Besides thys the pollicy of the church of God in times past is to be folowed herein that for the expounding of darker places places of more easines ought to be ioyned together as in the persecutiō of Antiochus wher they could not haue the commodity of preaching the Iewes dyd appoynt at their meetings alwayes a peece of the law to be red with all a peece of the prophets whych expounded y peece of the lawe rather then to bring in interpretations of men to be red And because I am entred into that matter heere cometh to be considered the practise also of the church both before our sauior Christes comming and after that when the churches met together there is nothing mentioned but the reading of the scriptures for so is the Lyturgie described in the Actes And it is not to be thought but that they had those whych made expositiōs of the law and the prophets And besydes that they had Onkelos the Calday paraphrast bothe Galatine Rabby Moses surnamed Maymon write that Ionathan an nother of the Calday paraphrasts floryshed in oure sauyor Christes tyme whose
can not be seuered is vsed for that that they ought not to be seuered when we say folowing S. Paule that we can do nothing against the truth doe we not meane that we ought to do nothyng nor can do nothyng lawfully agaynst it And do not al men knowe when we say that a man can not be separated from hys wyfe but for the cause of adultery that we meane he ought not or he cannot lawfully Therfore thys is as all men may see a mere cauill and triumph ouer hys owne shadow There is no brag of suffering made by the authors of the admonition The modesty wherwith he hath defended this cause cā not be hiddē That he wold haue other men punished for wel doing when he is not content that the open wrongs whych he doth shuld be once spoken of I haue shewed how vnreasonable it is Finally as you exhorte vs to submit our selues to good order whych haue ben alwayes and yet are ready to do to leaue to be contentious which neuer yet began to ioyne wyth you in preaching the word of God which haue stopped our mouthes and wil not suffer vs to preache so we exhorte you in Gods behalfe as you will once answere it before the iust iudge that you wil not willingly shut your eyes against the truthe that if the Lord vouchsafe to open it vnto you you kicke not agaynst it Where we pray you to take heede that neyther the desire of keping your wealth and honor whych you are in nor the hope whych you maye haue of any further promotion nor yet the care of keeping your estimation by maintaining that whych you haue once set downe nor the sleighty suggestion of crafty wily papists do driue you to stomble against thys truthe of God which toucheth the gouernement of hys churche and the purging of those corruptions whych are amongste vs knowing that you can not stumble vpon the woorde of God * but forthwith you run your selfe agaynst Christ whych is the rocke And you knowe that he will not geue backe but breaketh all to fytters whatsoeuer he be that rusheth agaynst him And if the matter heerein alledged do not satisfy you then I desire euen before the same God that you confute it not by passyng ouer thyngs whych you can not answeare or by leauing both the words and the meaning of the booke and taking your owne fansye to confute or by wrangling wyth the fault of the Printe or by carping at the translation when the wordes being changed the sence remaineth or by alledging that such a one or such an other was of thys or that iudgement as you for the most parte hauing nothyng but hys bare name haue done All whych things you haue committed in thys boke but that you confute it by the authoritye of the worde of God by good and sound reasons wholy and not by pecemeale And if you bring the practise of the churches we desire that it may be out of authorities whych are extāt which are not counterfait and whych were in the best and purest times And if you thinke that the credite of your doctorship or deanrye will beare out that which you can not answer your self besides that ecdicon omma is neuer shut remember M. doctor that light is come into the world men wil not be deluded with nothing nor abused wyth visards Neither let it embolden you whych peraduēture hath made you to presume the more in this boke to wryte any thing vpon hope that no man dare answer it For neither the Quenes maiesty nor her honorable coūcel as we are persuaded wil deale so sharply wyth those whom they know to be faithfull lawfull subiects whych pray that all the treasures of Gods wisedom may be powred vpon them neither haue we cause to thinke but that as the euill opinion whych is in part conceyued of vs hathe growne vpon false vntrue informations which you and such other haue geuen in crying in their eares that we be anabaptists conspired with papists puretanes Donatists bringers in of cōfusion anarchie enemies to ciuil gouernment and I knowe not what euen so whē her maiesty their honors shal vnderstand how far we are from those wicked opinions they will leaue that opinion of vs and rather esteme of vs by that we haue preached taught and now wryte then that whych other men report of vs being things which we neuer taught spake or so muche dreamed of Vnto master Doctors censures vpon the additions detractions and alterations of bothe the partes of the admonition BEsydes that oftentimes M. Doctor dothe accounte the expositions and explanations corrections he leaueth vs somewhat the les hope that he wil correct hys errors for that he pursueth the authors of the admonition so harde correcting their very smal and few slips which they haue made calling thys singulare modestye and commendable humility amongste other reproches dalying and inconstancye when it is oure profession euery day to learne better thyngs For vnto what ende should we lyue if time if experience if reading if musing if conference should teache vs nothyng And therefore when thyngs are Printed againe it is good and prayse worthy to pollish those things whych are some ▪ what rude to mitigate those things whych are to sharpe to make plaine and to geue lighte to those things whych seeme darker and to correcte that whych is a misse I thinke M. Doctor shoulde not be ignorante that wise men haue their deuteras phrontidas their seconde counsels and those also wyser and better then their first as that sentence doth declare I will therfore say no more heereof but admonishe M. Doctor that he receiue more louingly those whych correcte them selues seing that the best defence to hys booke must be not a correction here and there but a cleane blotting and striking out not an amending but a new making almoste of hys whole booke Other matter in hys censures he hath almost none at all worthe the answearing sauing that he hathe a place or two whych touch the matters before entreated of For whereas he accuseth the authors of the admonition in the first leafe as though they should condemne Doctors and bachellers of diuinitie and so bryng in confusion of degrees he vpon the. 5. leafe confesseth that they allowe of a Doctor Althoughe he that taketh away degrees of Doctor or Bachelor of Diuinitie dothe not bryng in confusion nor taketh not away all degrees of schooles especially seeing they are nowe made bare names wythout any offices and oftentimes they are admitted to these degrees whych neyther can nor will teache Vnto the seconde leafe of the addition of the second parte of the admonition master D. saith that because the third to Titus maketh not against reading therfore it maketh not against reading ministers that is ministers that can doe nothyng but reade And wheras he would picke out a contradiction in the words of the admonition because they say bare
a light foote the Heades and Summes of things then to number the faultes which are almost as many as there are sentences in thys booke more I am sure then there are pages ACcording to my promise made in my boke I haue here set down the iudgement of the later wryters concerning these matters in controuersy betwene vs Wherein because I loue not to translate out of other mens workes whereby I might make myne to grow I haue kept thys moderation that I neither sette down all the wryters nor all their places that I could nor yet of euery singuler matter but the chefest wryters and other of the cheefest poyntes or else of those wherein they are alleadged agaynst vs by M. Doctor and one only place of eche as farre as I could iudge and choose out most direct to that wherefore I haue alleaged it For otherwyse if I would haue spoken of all the poyntes and of the iudgement of all the wryters and gathered all the places that I could they woulde haue bene sufficient matter of an other booke as bigge or rather bigger then thys I must also admonish the Reader that I haue for borne in certeine of these Titles to set downe the iudgements of M. Beza M. Bullinger and M. Gualter because they are comprehended in the Confessyon of the Churches And thus partly vpon those sentences which I haue alleaged in thys booke and partely vpon these Testimonies heere set downe I leaue to the consyderation of all men how truely and iustly it is sayde that the learned wryters of these tymes one or two onely excepted are agaynst vs. 1 That there ought now to be the same regiment of the Church which was in the Apostles tyme. THe confession of the Heluetian Tygurin Berne Geneua Polonia Hungary and Scotland with others in the. 18. chapter speaking of the equality of the ministers sayth that no man may iustly forbyd to returne to the old constitution of the church of God and to receiue it before the custome of man. M. Caluin in hys Institututions 4. booke 3. chapter and 8. section speaking of the auncientes which dyd assist the pastor in euery church sayth that experiēce teacheth that that order was not for one age that thys office of gouernment is necessary to all ages And in the. 12. chapter and first section of the same booke sayth as much of Excommunication and other Ecclesiasticall censures Peter Martyr vpon the third to the Rom. teacheth that although the common wealth chaunge her gouernment yet the church alwayes kepeth hers still Bucer in hys first booke of the kingdome of Christ 15. chapter lamenteth that there were founde amongst those which are counted of the forwardest christians which woulde not haue the same disciplyne vsed now that was in the times of the Apostles obiecting the differences of tymes and of men 2. That one mynister ought not to haue any dominion ouer an other The foresayde Heluetian Confession c. in the seuententh Chapter sayeth that Christ dyd most seuerely prohibite vnto hys Apostles their successors primacy domynion in the 18. Chap. sayth that equall power function in geuen vnto all the mynisters of the church that from the beginning no one preferred him selfe to a nother sauing only the for order some one dyd call thē together propounde the matters that were to be consulted of gathered the voyces c. Musculus in hys Common places in the chap. of the offices of the mynisters of the word sayth that in the Apostolike church the ministers of the word were none aboue an other nor subiect to any heade or president mislyketh the setting vp of any one in higher degree then an other And further he sayth vppon the second chap. of the second Epistle to the Thessalonians that the honor of a byshop being taken from the rest of the mynisters and geuen to one was the first step to the papacie how so euer in other places he speaketh otherwyse 3. That the election of mynisters pertayneth not to one man. The foresayd Heluetian Confession c. in the. 18. Chapter sayth that the mynisters ought to be chosen of the church or by those which are lawfully deputed of the church and afterward ordayned with publike prayers M. Caluin in hys 4. booke of Institutions 3. chap. 15. section sheweth that the Church dyd chuse and that the Apostles dyd monderate the election and confuteth them which vpon the places of Titus and Timothe would proue that the election belongeth to one man. 4. That there ought now to be elders to gouerne the church with the Pastors and Deacons to prouide for the poore Touching Elders the iudgement of M. Caluin hath bene before declared in the first of these propositions M. Beza in hys booke of diuorces page 161. sayeth that the Eldershyp of the church ought to be where there is a Christian magistrate Touching Deacons M. Caluin 4. boke 3. chap. 9. section after that hee had described what deacons the churches had in the Apostles tymes sayeth that we after their example ought to haue the lyke M. Beza in the. 5. cap. and. 23. section of hys confessions sheweth that the office of the distribution of the goodes of the church is an ordinary function in a church lawfully constituted which office in the. 30. he calleth the Deaconship P. Martyr vpon the. 12. to the Rom. speaking of the Elders which did asist the pastor in euery Church of the Deacons lamenteth that thys order is so fallen out of the church that the names of these functions do skarce remayne M. Bucer in hys first booke of the kingdome of Christ for the auncientes of the Church sayeth that the number of the Elders of euery church ought to be encreased according to the multitude of the people and in the. 14. chap. of the same booke sayeth that thys order of Deaconshyppe was relygiously kept in the church vntill it was driuen out by Antichrist 5. That excommunication pertayneth not to any one man in the Church M. Caluin in hys Institutions 4. booke and. 11. chap. and. 6. section teacheth that Excommunication pertayneth not to one man that it was too wicked a fact that one man taking the authoritie which was common to other to himselfe alone opened a way to tyranny tooke from the Church her right and abrogated the church Senate ordayned by the spirite of Christ And in the. 12. chap. and. 7. section hee sayeth further that it ought not to be done without the knowledge and approbation of the Church M. Beza in hys confessions 5. chap. 43. section sayeth that thys power of excommunicating is geuen to no one man except it please God to worke extraordinarily Peter Martyr vpon the. 1. to the Corinthes and. 5. chap. sayeth that it is very daungerous to permit so waighty a matter as excommunication to the discretion and will of any one man And therfore both that tyranny might be auoyded and thys censure executed with greater frute
and grauitie that the order which the Apostle there vseth is still to be obserued M. Bucer of the kingdome of Christ in the. 1. booke and. 9. chap. sayeth that S. Paule accuseth the Corinthians for that the whole church dyd not cast out of their company the incestuous person 6. That Chauncelors Commissaries Officials c. vsurpe authority in the Church which belongeth not to them M. Caluin in hys Institutions 4. boke 11. chap. 7. sect speaketh agaynst the office of Officials and alledgeth diuers reasons agaynst them as that they exercise that part of the Byshops charge and that they handle matters whiche pertayne not to the spirituall iurisdiction M. Beza in hys boke of Diuorces prouing that the iudiciall deciding of matrimonyall causes appertayneth vnto the cyuill magistrate sayeth that officials proctors and promoters and in a word all the swinish filth now of long time hath wasted the church Peter Martyr vpon the. 13. chap. to the Romaines speaking agaynst the ciuill iurisdiction of byshops doth by the same reason condemne it in their deputies the officials 7. That the mynisters of the worde ought not to exercise any ciuill offices and iurisdiction M. Caluin in hys Institutions 4. boke 11. chap. 9. sect bringeth dyuers reasons to proue that byshops may neyther vsurpe nor take being geuen them eyther the right of the sword or the knowledge of ciuill causes M. Beza in hys Confessions chap. 5. sect 32. sayth that the Ecclesiasticall iurisdiction is to be distinguished from the ciuill and that although the byshops in the times of Christian Emperoures were troubled with the hearing of cyuill causes yet they dyd not that by any iudiciall power which they exercised but by a frendly entreaty of the parties which were at discorde and sayeth notwithstanding that herein the Emperors dyd geue too much to the ambytion of certayne byshoppes whereupon by little and by litle afterwarde all thinges were confounded And in the. 42. section sayeth that those corporall punyshmentes which the Apostles exercised were peculier and extraordinary Peter Martyr vpon the. 13. to the Romaines speaking of thys meeting of both Ecclesiasticall and ciuill iurisdiction in one man sayeth that when both the ciuill Ecclesiasticall functions do so meete that one hindreth the other so that he which exerciseth the one can not mynister the other M. Bucer vpon the. 5. of Mathew sayeth that there is no man so wise holy which is able to exercise both the ciuill the Ecclesiasticall power and that therfore he which will exercise the one must leaue the other 8. That the sacraments ought not to be priuately administred nor by women The forsayd confession .c. 20. holdeth that baptisme ought not to be mynistred by women or midwiues to the which also may be ioyned the Liturgy of the English church at Geneua which cōdemneth the mynistring of either of the sacraments in priuate houses or by women Peter Martyr vpon the. 11. chap. of the. 1. ep to the Corinthes in describing the corruptions of the Lordes supper noteth thys to be one that the church dyd not communicate altogether which corruption as it was in dyuers places in times past so he complayneth that it is now M. Bucer in hys first booke of the kingdome of Christ and. 7. chap. proueth out of the. 10. to the Corinth that the whole church should receiue the supper of the Lord together and that the vse of the church of God in thys behalfe ought with great and dyligent endeuour to be restored vnto the churches that it is a contempt of the mysteries not to be partakers when they are called M. Beza agaynst Westphalus sheweth that it is not decent that baptisme be mynistred but in the church that at standing houres and by the mynisters and further that vppon no necessitie as it is called it ought to be mynistred in priuate houses And that if it might be mynistred in priuate houses yet no otherwyse then by mynisters M. Caluin in hys institutions 4. booke chap. 15. sect 20. 21. proueth that baptisme ought not to be mynistred by priuate men or by any women 9. The iudgement of those late wryters touching ceremonies and apparell whose secret Epistles M. Doctor alledgeth appeareth by these places folowing cited but of their workes Printed and published by them selues Wherof also some are alledged by the answerer to the examiner where are diuers other places to thys purpose wherunto I referre the Reader M. Bucer vpon the. 18. of Math. sayth that they say nothing which doe alwayes obiect that greater things must be vrged then the reformation of ceremonies therby defending the reliques of Antichrist forasmuch as ceremonies are testimonies of religion And that as there is no agreement betwene Christ and Belial so those which are sincere Christians can abyde nothing of Antichrist Peter Martyr vpon the .10 c. of the .2 booke of the kings sayeth that the Lutheranes must take heede least whilest they cut of many popishe errors they follow Iehu by retayning also many popish things For they defend still the reall presence in the breade of the supper and images and vestmentes c. and sayth that relygion must be wholy reformed to the quicke Bullinger in hys Decades 5. booke and. 9. sermon sayth that our sauior Christ the Apostles vsed their accustomed apparell in the supper and that although in times past the ministers put on a kynde of cloke vppon their common apparell yet that was done neither by the example of Christ nor of hys Apostles but by the tradition of man and that in the ende after the example of the priestes apparell in the olde law it was cast vpon the mynisters at the ministration of the supper But sayeth he we haue learned long agoe not only that all Leuiticall ceremonies are abrogated but also that they ought to bee brought agayne into the church of no man And therefore seing we are in the light of the gospell and not vnder the shadow of the law we doe worthely reiect that massing Leuiticall apparell Gualter vpon the. 21. of the Actes among others bringeth thys for one reason to improue Paules shauing of hys head for that the gospell had beene preached .xx. yeares and that therefore the infirmitie of the Iewes ought not to haue beene borne with And after hee sayeth that that teacheth how much the supersticious masters of ceremonyes hurte the gospell which nourishe the weakenes of fayth by the long keeping of ceremonyes and by their long bearing hynder the doinges of those mynisters which are more feruent FINIS Prouer. 8. 15. 2. Chap. 34. 60. chap. 12. 3. Deut. 25. 2. Samu. 7. 2. Psal 132. Esra 3. 3. 10. Agg. 1. 14. 2. kin 22. 23. 2. kin 18. 2. Chr. 17. 8 Chap. 17. 18 1. Cor. 1. 27. 28 2. Chro. 29. 34 2. Chr. 30. 17. 2. Kin. 5. 4. 14 1. Sam. 25. 18 1. Agg. 234. 1. Cor. 3. 12. 13 2. Cor. 6. 15. Cap. 2. 42. 43. Rom. 12. 18. 2. Cor. 10.
sette downe hys iudgement before needed not to haue repeated it here agayne But the Greeke wordes you say catakyrieuousin kai catexousiazousin doe signifie to rule wyth oppression and why may not I saye that thys preposition cata doth not signifie heere a peruersnesse of rule but an absolutenesse and a full power and iurisdiction as catamathein catalambanein is not to learne or to perceyue euilly and peruersly but to learne exactly and to perceiue throughly and perfectly but what neede we to followe coniectures in so playne a matter when as Saint Luke vseth the simple wordes without any composition of exousiazein Kai Kyrieuein doe you not perceyue that the preposition wherein you put so great confidēce deceiueth you besides the manifest vntruth you commit in saying that all three Euangelistes haue katexousiazousin katakyrieuousin Furthermore you say that our sauioure Christ sayeth not that no man shall be great amongst them but he that desireth to be great amongst them He had sayd so before when he had sayd it shall not be so amongst you and therefore needed not to repeate it and yet an other Euangelist sayeth not he that desireth to be great but let the greatest among you be as the least VVherby he doth not reprehend only the desire of being great but will not haue them to be one aboue an other To the last reason Last of all you conclude that our sauiour Christ in the 20. of Mathew reproueth the ambition of the sonnes of zebede and in the 22. of S. Luke all the rest of the Apostles I graunte you he dothe so and that coulde not be done better then in tellyng them that they desired things not meete for them and which woulde not stande with their calling And if as you say the ambition only was reprehended and the desire of rule to oppresse others wyth the answere you attribute to our sauioure is not so fitte For they myght haue replyed and sayde that he forbad tyrannicall rule and oppression of their inferioures but they desired that which was a moderate and well ruled gouernment And semeth it vnto you a probable thing that S. Luke meaneth tyrantes and oppressors when as he sayth they are called beneficiall or gracious Lordes men doe not vse to call oppressors liberall or bountifull Lordes Neyther is it to be thought of all the Apostles that they desired rule one ouer an other to the ende that they would vse crueltie or tyrannie or oppression one ouer an other for that were to doe them great iniurie Besides that it is sayde that the rest of the disciples disdayned at the two brethren whyche they would not haue done if they had had any purpose or mynde to haue oppressed them For then they would haue contemned them rather then haue disdayned them if they had broken out into suche grose faultes For Aristotle teacheth that nemesis which is the same that aganactesis is the verbe whereof the Euangelist vseth is agaynst those that are supposed of them that beare the disdayne to be lifted vp higher and into better estate then they are worthy of whych agreeth wyth that interpretation whyche I haue alleaged and can not agree wyth the other whych you set downe For who speaking properly would speake after thys sort The residue of the Apostles disdayned at the two brethren or thought them vnworthy that they should beare tyrannicall rule ouer them To the section that beginneth touching the place in 23. of Mathew and so vntill howe aptly Concerning the exposition and sence of that place I agree with you and suppose that it is quoted of the authors of the admonition rather to note the ambition of certayne which gape greedely at these byshopprickes which we haue to the ende they mighte be saluted by the name of Lordes and honoures then to proue that one minister should not haue dominion ouer an other And therefore although these places be agaynst no lawfull authoritie of any estate or condition of men yet as they are aptly alledged against the bishop of Rome the one against his estate and authoritie simply the other agaynst hys tyrannie and euill vsage of hym selfe in that authoritie so it may be aptly alleaged agaynst any other which shall fall into the like fault of the byshop of Rome The purenesse that we boast of is the innocencie of our sauioure Christ who shall couer all our vnpurenesse not impute it vnto vs And for so much as fayth * purifyeth the hart we doubt not but God of his goodnes hath begon our sanctification and hope that he will make an ende of it euen vntill the day of our Lord Iesus Albeit we holde dyuers poyntes more purely then they doe which impugne them yet I know none that by comparison hath eyther sayd or written that all those that thinke as we doe in those poyntes are more holy and more vnblameable in life then any of those that thinke otherwise If we say that in those poynts which we holde from them we thinke soundlier then they doe we are ready to proue it If we say also that we lyue not so offensiuely to the world commonly by getting so many lyuinges into our handes as would finde foure or fiue good learned able ministers all the worlde will beare vs witnes Other purenes we take not vpon vs And therefore as the name was first by the Papistes maliciously inuented so is it of you very vnbrotherly confirmed Whereas you say that they are Puritanes which suppose the church which they haue deuised to be without all impuritie if you meane without sinne you doe notably slaunder them and it is already answered If you meane that those are Puritanes or Catharans which do set forth a true and perfect patern or platforme of reforming the church then the marke of thys heresy reacheth vnto those which made the booke of common prayer which you say is a perfect and absolute rule to gouerne this church wherein nothing is wanting or too little nor nothing running ouer nor too much As for the Catharans which were the same that are otherwise called Nouatians I know no suche opynion they had they whome you charge are as farre from their corruption as you be An answere to that which is contayned in the. 20. 21. and 22. page vntill Now if eyther godly Councels YOu geue occasion of suspition that your end will be skarce good which haue made so euill a beginning For whereas you had gathered out of the Admonition that nothing should be placed in the Church but that God hath in hys word commaunded as though the wordes were not playne enough you wil geue them some light by your exposition And what is that you answere that it is as much as though they would say nothing is to be tollerated in the church of Christe touching eyther doctryne order ceremonies disciplyne or gouernment except it be expressed in the word of god Is thys to interprete is it all one to say nothing
byshops and cleargie in a prouince and if Cyprian will neyther allow of the title of archbyshop nor of the authoritie and office but in playne wordes speaketh agaynst both we may conclude that M. Doctor hath done very vnaduisedly to lay so great waight of the archbyshop vppon S. Cyprians shoulders that wâ—ilnot only not beare any thing of hym but which hath done all that coulde be to make hym goe a foote and hand in hand with hys fellowes There are other reasons which M. Doctor vseth as thys a notable one S. Cyprian speaketh not of the vsurped power of the byshop of Rome therefore he speaketh of the office of an archbyshop and metropolitane It is hard to call thys argument to any head of fallation for it hath not so much as a colour of a reason I thincke it can deceiue no body but your self An other reason is that all the godlyest best learned meÌ„ do expound the place of Cyprian in the 3. epist. of the first booke of an archbyshop The vanitie of thys saying that the godly learned wryters so expound it I haue shewed before and heere it commeth to be considered agayne I will not say that no godly nor learned wryter expoundeth the place of Cyprian of the authoritie of an archbishop But first I desire M. Doctor to set downe but one and then I will leaue it to thy consyderation gentle reader to thincke whether M. Doctor hath red any learned or godly mans exposition to be suche when he hath not red those which are nearest hym I meane our owne countrey men I say he hath not red them because I woulde thinke charitably so of hym rather then that he shoulde haue red them and yet speake vntruely of them and father those things of them which they neuer speake M. Iewell the byshop of Sarisburie expounded thys place and yet dyd neuer expounde it of the office and authoritie of an archbyshop of all the byshops and clergie of the prouince but cleane contrarywise applyeth it to the authoritie that euery byshop had in hys diocesse hys wordes are these Now therefore to draw that thing by violence to one only byshop that is generally spoken of all byshops is a guilefull fetch to misseleade the reader and no simple nor playne dealing Heere you see that M. Iuel doth not vnderstande thys of any archbyshop but of euery byshop M. Nowel Deane of Poules hauing occasion to speake of this place sayth on thys sort So that when he speaketh meaning Cyprian of one byshop one iudge in the churche for the time or of the byshop whych is one and ruleth the church absolutely he meaneth euery byshop in his owne diocesse wythout exception If he speake specially he meaneth the byshop of the citye or diocese wherof he entreateth whether it be the byshop of Rome Carthage or any other place M. Fore also expoundeth thys of euery byshop wythin hys owne churche or diocese You heare the iudgement of these three wryters that can not picke out neyther the name nor the office of an archbyshop out of Cyprians place and yet I thinke you wil not deny but these were learned and godly wryters Now I haue shewed you three I aske once againe of you one godlye and learned wryter that expoundeth it as you doe And by thys time I suppose all men vnderstande what a small friend S. Cyprian is eyther to the name or office of an archbyshop Let vs heare whether Ierome make any more for the archbyshop then did Cyprian The Hebrues doe deriue the name of time of a verbe whych signifyeth to corrupt because in dede it doth corrupt all and as the times are so are meÌ„ which liue in them that euen very good men carye the note of the infection of the times wherin they liue and the streame of the corruption therof being so vehemeÌ„t and forcible doth not only driue before it light things but it cateth also and weareth the very hard and stony rockes and therfore there is not to be loked for such sinceritie at Ierome his hand whych we found in S. Cyprian considering that he liued some ages after Cyprian what time sathan had a great deale more darkned the cleare light of the sonne of the gospell then it was in S. Cyprians time For as those that came nearest vnto the apostles times because they were nearest the light â–ª did see best so those that were further of from these lightes had vntill the time of the manifestation of the sonne of perdition their heauens more darke and cloudy and consequeÌ„tly did see more dimly whych is diligently to be obserued of the reader bothe the better to vnderstand the state of thys question and all other controuersies whych lie betweene vs and the papistes And although Ierome besides his other faultes might haue also in thys matter spoken more soundly yet we shall easely perceiue that he is a great deale further from eyther the title or office of an archbyshop or else from the authority that a byshop hath with vs then he is from the simplicity of the ministery which ought to be and is commended vnto vs by the worde of God. And heere I must put M. Doctor in remembrance howe vnfitly he hath dedicated his boke vnto the churche whych hath so patched it and peeced it of a number of shreds of the doctors that a sentence of the scripture eyther truely or falsely alledged is as it were a Phenix in thys boke If he would haue had the church beleue hym he oughte to haue setled their iudgement and grounded their faith vpon the scriptures whych are the only foundations whervpon the church may build Nowe he doth not only not geue them grounde to stand of but he leadeth them into wayes whych they can not folowe nor come after him For except it be those whych are learned and besides haue the meanes and abilitye to haue the bokes whych are heere cited which are the least and smallest portion of the church how can they know that these things be true whych are alledged and as I haue said if they could know yet haue they nothing to stay them selues vpon and quiet their conscience in allowing that which M. Doctor would so faine haue them like of Therefore he might haue much more fitly dedicated his booke vnto the learned and riche whych haue furnished libraries Ierome sayeth that at the first a byshoppe and an Elder whych you call priest were all one but afterward through factions schismes it was decreed that one should rule ouer the rest Now I say against this order that the bishop shoulde beare rule ouer all that which our sauioure Christ sayth vnto the Pharises from the beginning it was not so and therefore I require that the first order may stande which was that a byshop elder were all one And if you place so great authoritie agaynst the institution of God in a mortall man heare what Tertullian sayth vnto you
red more of him then you For I haue red ouer his boke of Martyrs and so I thinke did neuer you For if you had red so diligently in M. Foxe as you haue ben hasty to snatch at this place he would haue taught you the forgery of these Epistles whereout you fetch your authorities and would haue shewed you that the distinguishing of the orders of metropolitanes bishops and other degrees whych you say sometimes had their beginnings in the apostles times somtimes you can not tell whē were not in Higinus time which was a. 180. yeres after Christ I perceiue you fear M. Foxe is an ennemy vnto your archbyshop and primate therfore it seemeth you went about to corrupt hym wyth hys praise and to seeke to drawe hym if it were possible vnto the archbyshop and if not yet at the least that he would be no ennemy if he would not nor could not be his frend You make me suspect that your praise is not harty but pretended because you do so often so bitterly speake against all those that will not receiue the cap and surplice and other ceremonies wherof M. Fox declareth his great misliking For answer vnto the place because I remēber it not nor meane not to read ouer the whole boke to seeke it I say first as I said before that there may be some thing before or after which may geue the solution to this place especially seeing M. Foxe in another place prouing the Epistles of Stephanus to be counterfet he vseth thys reason because the fifthe Canon of the sayd Epistles solemnely entreateth of the difference betwene primates metropolitanes and archbyshops whych distinction sayth he of titles and degrees sauor more of ambition thē persecution Moreouer I say that M. Foxe wryting a story doth take greater paine and loketh more diligently to declare what is done and in what time and by whom then how iustly or vniustly how conueniently or inconueniently it is done Last of all if any thing be spoken there to the hinderance of the sincerity of the gospell I am well assured that M. Foxe whych hath trauailed so much and so profitably to that end will not haue hys authority or name therin to bring any preiudice Now wil I also wyne with you and leaue it to the iudgement of the indifferent reader how well out of the scriptures councels wryters old and new you haue proued either the lawfulnes at all of the names of archbishops patriarches archdeacons primates or of the lawfulnes of the office of them and of byshops whych be in our times And for as much as I haue purposed to answer in one place that which is scattered in diuers I will heere answere halfe a shete of paper whych is annexed of late vnto thys boke put forthe in the name and vnder the credite of the B. of Salisbury Wherin I wil say nothyng of those byting sharpe words which are giuen partly in the beginning when he calleth the propounders of the proposition whych concerneth archbyshops and archdeacons nouices partly in the end when he calleth them children and the doctrine of the gospell wantonnes c. If he had liued for hys learning and grauitye and otherwyse good desertes of the church in defending the cause therof agaynst the papistes we coulde haue easely borne it at hys handes nowe he is deade and layde vp in peace it were agaynste all humanitye to dygge or to breake vp hys graue only I wil leaue it to the consideration of the reader vpon those things whych are alledged to iudge whether it be any wantonnes or noueltye whych is confirmed by so graue testimonyes of the auncient worde of god Vnto the place of the. 4. of the Ephesians before alledged he answeareth cleane contrary to that whych M. Doctor sayth that we haue nowe neyther Apostles nor Euangelists nor Prophets wherevppon he wold conclude that that place is no perfect paterne of the ministery in the church In deede it is true we haue not neyther is it nedefull that wee should It was therfore sufficient that there were once and for a time so that the wante of those nowe is no cause whye the minysteries there recited be not sufficient for the accomplyshment and full fynishing of the church nor cause whye anye other minysteries should be added besydes those whych are there recyted Afterward he saith that neither byshop nor elder are reckned in that place The pastor is there reckened vp and I haue shewed that the pastor and byshop are all one and are but dyuers names to signifye one thyng And as for those elders whych doe only gouerne they are made mention of in other places the apostles purpose being to recken vp here only those minysteries whych are conuersant in the worde as I haue before alledged and therefore the byshop and elder whych wyth gouernment teache also are there contained After that he sayeth there is no catechista if there be a pastor or as some thynke Doctor there is one whych bothe can and ought to instruct the youth neyther doth it pertayne to any other in the churche and publykely to teache the youth in the rudiments of religion then vnto eyther the pastor or doctor how so euer in some times and places they haue made a seuerall office of it And where he sayth that there is neyther deacon nor reader mentioned for the deacon I haue answeared that s Paul speaketh there only of those functiōs whych are occupyed both in teachyng and gouernyng the churches and therfore there was no place there to speake of a deacon and as for the reader it is no such office in the churche whych the minister may not doe And if eyther he haue not leysure or his strength and voyce wil not serue hym first to read some long time and afterwarde to preache it is an easye matter to appoynt some of the elders or deacons or some other graue man in the church to that purpose as it hathe bene practised in the churches in times past and is in the churches reformed in oure dayes without making any new order or office of the ministery Where he sayth that by thys reason we should haue no churches pulpits schooles nor vniuersities it is first easely answeared that S. Paule speaketh not in the. 4. to the Ephesians of all things necessary for the churche but only of all necessary ecclesiasticall functions whych do both teach gouerne in the church and then I haue already shewed that there were both churches and pulpits As for scholes and vniuersities it is sufficient commaundement of them in that it is commaunded that bothe the magistrates and pastors should be learned for he that commaundeth that they shoulde be learned commaundeth those things and those meanes wherby they may most conueniently come to that learning And we haue also examples of them commended vnto vs in the old Testament As in the boke of the Iudges when Debora commendeth the vniuersity men and those
thys abuse and hys reason is because s. Paule speaketh there agaynst those that by fained excuses seeke to defraud the pastor of hys lyuing as who should say s Paule dyd not conclude that particulare conclusion thou shalt not by friuolous excuses defraud the minister wyth thys general saying God is not mocked for hys reason is God is not mocked at all or in any matter therfore he is not mocked in thys Or as who should say because our sauioure Christ saying that it is not lawfull to seperate that which God hath ioyned speaking of diuorce it is not lawfull to vse thys sentence being a generall rule in other thyngs when as we know it is as well and properly vsed agaynst the papists whych seuer the cup from the breade as agaynst the Iewes whych put away their wiues for euery small and trifeling cause And as for thys questioning it can be little better termed then a very trifeling and toying For first of all children haue not nor can not haue any fayth hauing no vnderstanding of the word of God I will not deny but children haue the spirite of God whych worketh in them after a wonderful fashion But I deny that they can haue faith which cometh by hearing vnderstandyng whych is not in them Secondarily if children could haue fayth yet they that present the childe can not precisely tell whether that particulare chylde hath fayth or no and therfore can not so absolutely answere that it beleeueth Because it is comprehended in the couenaunt and is the chylde of faythfull parents or at the least of one of the parents there is warrant vnto the presenters to offer it vnto baptisme and to the minister for to baptise it And further we haue to thinke charitably and to hope that it is one of the church But it can be no more precisely sayd that it hath fayth thē it may be sayd precisely elected for in dede it is all one to say that it is elect and to say it beleueth and this I thinke the authors of the admonition do meane when they say that they require a promise of the Godfather whych is not in them to performe Thirdly if bothe those thyngs were true that is that infantes had fayth and that it myght be precisely sayd y it beleeueth yet ought not the minister demaund thys of the childe whom he knoweth can not answer hym nor those that answer for the childe ought to demaund to be baptised when they neyther meane nor may be being already baptised But it is meete that all thyngs should be done grauely simply and plainly in the church And so if those other two thyngs were lawfull it ought to be done as seemeth to haue bene done in S. Augustines times when the minister asked those that presented the infant and not the infant whether it were faythfull and those whych presented answeared in their owne persons and not in the childes that it was faythfull For Godfathers there is no controuersy betwene the admonition and M. doctors boke whych appeareth not only in their corrections but plainly in the 188. page where they declare that they rather condemne the abuse whylest it is vrged more then greater matters and whych are in deede necessary thys being a thyng arbitrarie and left to the discretion of the church and whilest there is so euil choyse for the moste parte of Godfathers whych is expressedly mentioned of the admonition and whilest it is vsed almost for nothyng else but as a meane for one frende to gratify an other wythout hauing any regarde to the solempne promyse made before God and the congregation of seeing the childe broughte vp in the nurture and feare of the lord For the thyng it selfe consydering that it is so generally receyued of all the churches they do not mislike of it As for fonts I haue spoken of before both particularly in general But wheras M. doctor sayeth in the apostles times they baptised in no basins but in riuers common waters I wold know whether there was a riuer or common water in Cornelius and in the iaylors houses where Paul and Peter baptised To proue crossing in baptisme M. Bucers authority is brought I haue sayd before what iniury it is to leaue the publyke workes of Bucer and to flye vnto the Apochryphas wherin also they might driue vs to vse the like and to set downe lykewise hys wordes whych we finde in hys priuate letters But it is first of all to be obserued of the reader howe wyth what name those notes are called whych are cited of M. Doctor for the defence of these corruptions They are called by M. Doctors owne confession censures which word signifyeth and implyeth as muche as corrections and controlments of the booke of seruice and therefore we may take thys for a generall rule throughout the whole boke of seruice that in whatsoeuer thyngs in controuersy M. Doctor doth not bring Bucers authority to confirme them that those thyngs Bucer mislyked of as for example in priuate baptisme and communions ministred in houses for interrogatories ministred vnto infants such lyke for so much as they are not confirmed here by M. Bucers iudgemēt it may be thought that he mislyked of them and no doubt if eyther M. Bucers notes had not eyther condemned or mislyked of diuers thyngs in the seruice boke we should haue had the notes printed and set forthe to the full thys I thought in a word to admonishe the reader of Vnto M. Bucers authority I could heere opposemen of as great authority yea the authoritye of all the reformed churches whych shall also be done afterward And if there were nothyng to oppose but the worde of God whych will haue the sacraments ministred simply and in that sincerity that they be left vnto vs it is enoughe to make all men to couer their faces and to be ashamed if that whych they shall speake be not agreeable to that simplicity The reasons whych Bucer bryngeth I will answer whych in thys matter of crossing are two First that it is auncient and so it is in deede For Tertullian maketh mention of thys vsage and if thys be sufficient to proue the goodnesse of it then there is no cause why we should mislyke of the other superstitions and corruptious whych were likewyse vsed in those tunes For the same Tertullian sheweth that they vsed also at baptisme to taste of miike and hony and not to washe all the weeke after they had ministred baptisme But heere I will note the cause whervpon I suppose thys vse of crossing came vp in the primitiue church wherby shal appeare how there is no cause now why it shuld be retained if there were any why it should be vsed in the primitiue church It is knowne to all that haue red the Ecclesiastical stories that the heathen dyd obiect to the Christians in times past in reproche that the God whych they beleued of was hanged vpon a crosse And they
to the Corinthians For it is certain that S. Paule dyd bothe vnderstand and obserue the rule of our sauyor Christ But he communicateth thys power of Excommunication wyth the church and therfore it must needes be the meaning of oure sauioure Christe that the excommunication should be by many and not by one and by the church and not by the minister of the church alone For he biddeth the church of Corinthe twise in the first Epistle once by a Metaphore an other time in playne woordes that they should excommunicate the incestuous person By metaphore saying purge out your olde leauen in playne and flat words when he sayeth take away that wicked man from amongst you And in the second Epistle vnderstanding of the repentance of that man he entreateth them that they would receyue hym in again shewing that he was content to release the bonde and chaine of hys excommunication so that they wold do the same and therefore consydering the absolution or reconciliation of the excommunicate dothe pertaine vnto the church it foloweth that the excommunication doth in lyke manner appertaine vnto it Now wheras M. Doctor vpon those wordes of S. Paule that he being absent in body and present in spirite had determined c. concludeth that the ryght of excommunication was in S. Paule and not in the rest it is as much as if he should say S. Paule as much as lay in hym excommunicated therfore s. Paule excommunicated or S. Paule excommunicated therefore the churche dyd not For what if S. Paule dyd excommunicate hym so muche as lay in hym shoulde he therfore haue bene excommunicated if the church of Corinthe and the minyster there would haue admitted hym to the supper and not abstaine from familiare companying wyth hym You will say he should haue bene bounde in heauen and before God although the church of Corinthe had not put hym forthe It is true that the apostles denunciation of Gods vengeance vpon the impenitent sinner is ratifyed in heauen and so shoulde he also haue bene if S. Paule had sayd nothyng and yet S. Paule dyd not excommunicate the incestuous persone but so much as lay in hym and as farre as hys ryght stretched not being therfore yet excommunicated by S. Paule it foloweth that the church had a stroke in the excommunication Againe to proue that the church hath nothyng to doe wyth excommunication it is not enoughe to say that S. Paule had the ryght of excommunication But you shoulde haue shewed that he only had it and then you are manifestly conuicted by S. Paules own words whych ioyneth the church with hym in that excommunication saying that he had decreed that the doer of that fact by hys spirite and them gathered together in the name of Iesus Christe and by hys power should be geuen to sathan And if the right of excommunication were only in S. Paule how is it that you sayd before that it is in the minister of the churche had the minister of the churche of Corinthe nothing to doe And if it were in S. Paule alone why doth he chide wyth the church that they had not already excommunicated hym before he wrote vnto them to signifye hys wyll to excommunicate or if it were in the minister of the church only why wâ—â— S. Paule chide and sharply rebuke the church for that the incestuous man was not cast forthe Why doth he charge the Corinthians wyth that whych was the only fault of the minister An other obiection M. doctor hath out of the .16 of S. Mathew and the 20. of Iohn in whych places because he giueth power to the .xij. to bynde and to lose M. Doctor will conclude that they only haue power to binde and to lose Salomon sayeth that the iust man is first the accuser of himselfe and therfore it behoued M. doctor or euer he shuld haue accused the authors of the Admonition of dalying and vnreuerent handlyng of the scriptures to haue first of all spoken to him selfe and haue strickeÌ„ him selfe vpon the thigh For if thys be not to abuse the scriptures I knowe not what is to abuse them for to let passe that some and of the auncient wryters do expounde the place of S. Mathewe of euery membre of Christ and of as many as haue faith to confes Christ to be the some of God and so by that meanes to haue power of excommunication I say to let that goe M. doctor myght easely know if he would that in that plaâ—e our sauyor Christ speaketh of the binding and losing whych â—â—y the preaching of the word of God standyng in threates and promyses and therefore that binding pertayneth only vnto the ministers to whom the preachyng doth only belong But in the .18 of S. Mathewe where he speaketh of the binding and losing by excommunication and receyuing to the churche agayne there he attributeth thys power vnto the church He hath an other obiection out of S. Paule to Timothe where for that it is sayde that s Paule dyd excommunicate Hymineus and Alexander he concludeth after hys old manner that therfore he only excommunicated But for so much as I haue proued that both the rule of Christ the practise of S. Paule accordyng to that rule be otherwyse it can not be that S. Paule dyd excommunicate hym selfe alone those persons for then he should disagree bothe wyth our sauyor Christ and wyth hym selfe But as I haue shewed before in other ecclesiastical actions and exercises of discipline that one man is sayd to do that which was done of many for because one was moderator of that action or exercise so s. Paul here sayeth that he dyd excommunicate not that he dyd it by hym selfe alone but because he was president cheefe in that action And although it shuld be graunted whych can not that S. Paule dyd excommunicate hymselfe alone being an apostle or for one tyme yet it neyther foloweth that the byshop or minister may do that whych the apostle dyd or that he may do continually the which was done but once and extraordinarily As for the place of Titus the thirde it maketh nothyng to excommunication onles you wold conclude that for that S. Paule biddeth Titus to trouble hymselfe no more wyth confuting an obstinate hereticke therfore he biddeth hym excommunicate an hereticke by hym selfe As touching Bafiles place in the second booke of Offices when the booke commeth forth is Printed then it shal be answered as for me I know of none such that is extant now To the rest I will answer wyth thys protestation that if all men should do contrary to the order of God yet their authority or example ought not to haue the waight of a fether which I haue said before do vnderstand it in all places wher I do not expres it wyth this I come to M. doctors authorities And as for Theodoretus byshop of Laodicea whych Sozomene maketh mention of in hys sixthe booke I finde none suche but there
is mentioned of one Theodotus who is sayd to haue seperated or excommunicated Apollinaris but it doth not appeare there that he alone of hys owne authority dyd excommunicate hym And there be great reasons in that Chapter to proue that he dyd it not of hys owne authority for immediatly after his heresy was knowne Damasus bishop of Rome and Peter bishop of Alexandria caused a sinode to be gathered at Rome where hys heresy was condemned Now for so much as the custome of synodes and councels is when they condenme the heresyes to excommunicate the heretickes it is to be thoughte that that councell dyd excommunicate hym and that Theodotus byshop of Laodicea dyd execute that decree and excommunication And in deede Sozomene doth so expound hym selfe when immediatly after he had sayde that he dyd excommunicate him he addeth acoinonetoh auton apophainei whych is that he declared him excommunicate whych in deede properly belongeth to the minister when the excommunication is decreed by those to whoÌ„ it appertaineth Whych thing may yet better appeare by the manner of speache whych is vsed in an other place where speaking of â—ictor excommunycating Theodotus he vttereth it by thys apekeryxe whych is to promulgate or pronounce the sentence whych was decreed by others As for Amb. although he be greatly commended for excommunicating the Emperor yet he was neuer commended for that he did excommunicate him himselfe alone and if he dyd excommunicate him himselfe alone yet hys fault was the les for so much as he being desirous of an eldershyp could not as it semeth by hys complaint which I haue spoken of before â—â—â—aine one And although the storyes doe not make mention y there were others whose authority came into thys excommunication yet it followeth not y there were no other And how often wil you stomble at that which you do so sharply reproue in others whych is in making of arguments of authority negatiuely And if you will not grauÌ„t thys manner of reasonyng in the scripture in matters pertaining to the gouernment of the church whych are all comprehended in the scripture how would you reason of a common story whych neither can nor dothe professe to speake all those things whych fall into that matter whych it wryteth of But what if so be it be proued that Ambrose did not this of hys owne authoritye but by the authoritye also of others will you then confesse that he is commended of all those whych wryte stories for so doing and confesse that the vse and practise of the primitiue church was far from thys that is nowe For proufe whereof I will geue you a place whych Ambrose the best wytnes of thys matter hath in one of his epistles wher he sheweth that assone as the murther whych Theodosius had caused to be done at the citye of Thessalonica was heard by and by the byshops of Fraunce came and there was holden a Synode where also Ambrose sayeth that hys communicating wyth Theodosius coulde not absolue hym for that as it myght appeare the byshops in that synode had in excommunicating hym ordained that he should not be absolued vntill suche tyme as he had done repentance whych he did afterward with confessyon of his faulte before the congregation and asking forgeuenes of it So it appeareth that that whych he did he did it by the sentence of the synode and not of hys owne authority alone In the. 220. 221. pages he speaketh of thys thing a fresh but hath no newe matter but maketh a bare rehersall of the places of the admonition asking after hys accustomed manner of confuting what maketh thys or what proueth that only wheras he sayd before and proued as he thought that the minister had only to do wyth excommunication being pressed there by the admonition either to defend or renounce hys Chauncellors c. he had rather deny bothe the truth and himselfe then he wold haue any of that horrible confusion and prophanation of the holy discipline of God brought in by popery threatnyng the ouerthrow of the whole church seruing for nothing but for the nourishing of the ambition and idlenes of a fewe driuen out of the church Of the whych I will vpon occasion speake a word if first I shewe that the vse of the auncyent church hath bene not to permit the excommunication to one but that the sentence therof should come from the gouernors and elders of the church vnto whome that dyd especially appertaine Although I can not passe by that which M. doctor sayth that for so much as the authors of the Admonition had alledged the words tell the church to proue the interest of the church in excommunication that therefore they could not vse the same to proue the interest of the pastor as who should saye that the pastor is not one of the church But of the absurdity of this I haue spoken sufficiently before and how all men do see the vanity of thys reason that because that people haue an interest by thys place therfore the pastor hath none But I come to shew the vse of the primitiue church in thys matter wherof we haue a manifest testimony in Tertullian If sayth he there be any whych hath committed suche a faulte that he is to be put away from the partakyng of the prayer of the church and from all holy matters or affaires there do beare rule or be presidents certaine of the most approued auncients or elders whych haue obtayned thys honor not by mony but by good report And that the auncients had the ordering of these things and the peoples consent was required and that if the case were a very difficult case it was referred vnto the synodes or councels and that the ministers dyd not take vpon them of their owne authority to excommunicate and that those whych dyd receiue the excommunicate wythout the knowledge consent of the churche were reprehended it may appeare almost in euery page of Cyprians Epistles and namely in these whych I haue noted in the margent In Augustines tyme it appeareth also that the consent of the church was required for in the third boke agaynst the epistle of Parmenian he sheweth that if the multitude of the church be not in that fault for which one is to be excommunicated that then it helpeth much to make the party both afrayde and ashamed that he be excommunicated or anathematised as he calleth it by all the churche and in hys bookes de Baptis contra Donatistas in diuers places he is so far from permitting the excommunication to one man that he semeth to fal into the other extremity whych is to make the estate of the church to populare and the people to haue too great a sway For there he sheweth that if the most of the people be infected wyth the fault whych is to be punyshed by excommunication that then no excommunication ought to be attempted for because a sufficient numbre of voyces will not be obtained