which you denie It followeth Which Homousion afterwards in the Councell of Atiminum hereticall impietie vnder the hereticall Emperour Constantius endeuoured to infirme But all in vaine For soone after the libertie of the Catholike faith preuaiing Homousion was defended vniuersally Then come the words that you alleage Sed nunc nec ego NicenuÌ„ nec tu debes ArimineÌ„se tanquam praeiudicaturus proferre coÌ„cilium But now in this disputation betwene vs two being vpon the matter it selfe in it selfe as it were to preiudicate neither must I alleage the Councell of Nice nor thou the Councell of Ariminum For so that Arrian Bishop Maximinus being both to encounter with S. Augustine vpon the matter it selfe sayd in the very beginning of the disputation If thou demaund my faith I hold that faith which at Ariminum of three hundred and thirtie Bishops was not onely notified but also by their subscriptions ratified Au. contra Max. li. 1. in principio Therefore S. Augustine said as before and further as followeth Nec ego huius authoritate nec tu illius detineris Neither doth the authoritie of the one holde me nor of the other holde thee Where your false translation maketh him to say that the Arrian was not bounden to the authoritie of the Nicene Councell contrarie to that which he said afore calling it veritatem authoritatis the truth of authoritie Therefore they were bound to it as you also now be bound to the Tridentine Councell but they would not be holden within their boundes as neither you will And therefore it was to no more purpose to alleage against them that of Nice then it is to alleage against you this of Trent specially they hauing that of Ariminum to pretend for them such a one as you being of all great Heresies the beggerliest haue none Neither would we in the like altercations alleage against you the olde Councels if you would plainely confesse them to be against you so as you do confesse the Tridentine to be against you and so as the Arrians did confesse the Nicene to be against them Wherevpon S. Augustine there sayth By authorities of the Scriptures being witnesses not proper to one side but common to both let matter trie with matter cause with cause reason with reason The like would we by his ensample in the like case say to you in the meane time also not refusing to answere al that you can alleage be it Scripture be it Councell or whatsoeuer els as in this booke you finde nor requiring you to answere any priuate witnesses but onely common considering that not we onely but you also whatsoeuer you say of onely Scripture do make claime for all that and appeale to the first 600. yeares namely your Iewell in those two Goticall Sermons of his at Powles crosse Anno 1560. The other places also that you alleage out of Augustine for this generall parte are but particular and concerne no more but that one question of the Church whereof your second parte was as this former place coÌ„cerned no more but the question of the Trinitie And therefore your probation is not so large as your affirmation where you say that although Augustine proue against the Pelagians by the prayers of the Church Pur. 349. yet he doeth not meane to defend that whatsoeuer the visible Church receiueth is true and therefore all other perswasions set aside he prouoketh onely to the Scriptures to trie the faith doctrine of the Church How true that is appeareth by the very same booke De vnitate Ecclesiae out of which you go about to shewe such prouoking of his for there when he hath proued against the Donatistes the Church to be his he sayth expresly that to be ynough also for all other questions Aug. de vnitate Eccl. cap. 18.19 Sufficit nobis c. It is ynough for vs that we haue that Church which is pointed to by most manifest testimonies of the Holy and Canonicall Scriptures And touching the very question it selfe of the Church againe what doe you alleage out of him what you gather of his saying I sée Ar. 13.14 for you say By this Augustine declareth first that Heretikes must be confuted onely by the Scriptures and secondly that neither Councels Succession of Bishops Vniuersalitie Myracles Visions Dreames nor reuelations are the notes to trie the Catholike Church but onely the Scriptures So you gather but he sayth not so Au. de vni Eccl. ca. 16. Remoueantur omnes moratoriae tergiuersationes sayth he Away with all dilatorie drawinges backe such as is Quicquid de peccatis hominum obijcitur all that the Donatist Bishop obiecteth of certeine mens crimes Also when he saith for his Church Verum est quia hoc ego dico It is true because I say this or because this said that felowbishop or those felowbishops of mine or those Bishops in their Councels or Clarkes or Lay of oures aut ideo verum est or therefore it is true because such and such meruailes did Donatus who was as it were their Luther or Pontius as it were their Caluine or any other or because men do pray at the memories of our departed be hard or because this and that there doeth happen or because such a brother of ours or such a sister of ours sawe such a vision walâ—ng or dreamed such a dreame sleeping Remoueantur ista Awaye with these dilatories and let them shew their Church in the Canonicall authoritie of the Holy books Nec â—ta vt ea colligant c. Neither so as to gather rehearse those places which are obscure or ambiguous or figuratiue that euery man maye interpret them as he list after his owne sense But bring you forth some place so manifest that it needeth no interpreter Ar. 13. Pur. 333. Because neither we do say that men ought to beleeue vs that we are in the Church for that that the Church which we holde hath bene commended by Optatus of Mileuis or by Ambrose of Milayne as now by Fisher of Rochester or Hosius of Warmes or by other inumerable Bishops of our communion or because she hath ben set forth by Councelles of our fellowbishopps For these were priuate to S. Augustines side as those other Bishopps and Councelles were priuate to the Donatistes side So are they not now but both sides we and you do claime them And therfore now better cause to alleage them euen also in the question of the Church then was in S. Augustines time how be it then also he might well haue alleaged them although in that booke he did not and sayth he did not For in them was veritas authoritatis trueth of authoritie as here aboue pag. 179. he sayd to the Arrian and no lesse also to the Donatistes It followeth on further as you also alleage Aut quia per totum orbem Moracles and visions or Because ouer all the world in the Holy places that our communion doth frequent so great Miracles partely of
¶ A REPLY TO FVLKE In defense of M. D. Allens scroll of Articles and booke of Purgatorie By Richard Bristo Doctor of Diuinitie Tit. 3. Haereticum hominem post vnam secundam correptionem deuita sciens quia subuersus est qui eiusmodi est deliquit cum sit proprio iudicio condemnatus Auoyde the Heretike man after the first and second correption knowing that he which is suche is subuerted and sinneth syth that he is condemned by his owne Iudgement Perused and allowed by me Th. Stapleton Imprinted at Louaine by Iohn Lion Anno Dom. 1580. ¶ TO THE READER IT may serue greatly to thy edification gentle Reader as it also perteineth much to my purpose in this booke to let thée vnderstande that where as there are two wayes of finding out Christian truth when it is in controuersie the one by treating of euery matter in particuler the other by giuing certayne generall rules that are infallible Twelue or thirtéene yeres agoe M.D. Allen hauing amongst other learned Catholikes of our time and countrey on this side the sea opened and defended in print most perspicuously and substantially certayne speciall articles of the Catholike saith and béeing driuen not long after by sicknes to séeke to the ayre of his natiue soyle did in the short space of his abode there deale also the other waye with many Gentlemen confirming some and setting vp agayne others by most euident and vndouted rules of truth which were alwayes common for the most part among Catholikes but the weight of them déepely considered of very few and the number of them as yet neither by him nor by any other bound vp together Onely to one gentleman requesting so much he gaue a copie of them suche a one as of extemporall and priuate writing might be looked for It is now nine yeres since I heard the same of his own mouth what time I came first into his blessed familie and was present very often when amongst vs he discoursed familiarly vpon the said rules to such liking of my part that I left him not vntill I had intreated him to take his penne one morning and out of his memorie to frame me also a copie Which copie a friende hauing séene here with me who afterward was sent home into our lords haruest in a letter from thence desired instantly to be made partaker therof affirming that he saw how medicinable it would be to many soules I communicated the matter to the Author of it He béeing wholly occupied him selfe in publike teaching of Diuinitie would haue me who then had more leasure though for skill not worthy to beare his booke to deuise somewhat vpon those and the like rules which might in print be published to the world not as though the very bare rules as in the foresaid copies were not conuenient and sufficient specially for men of intelligence and that willingly would be informed but that by the declaration and confirmation of them the rude also and obstinate might be induced And this was the occasion of my Motiues in the ende of the yeare 1574. and also of my Demaundes in the beginning of the yeare 1576 which I made vpon the motion of certayne who desired to haue the Motiues printed agayne because the first impression was for the greater part taken and destroyed by the aduersaries And now after all this the last yeare 1577. commeth foorth from one W. Fulke an heretike a pretended answere to the first copie aboue mentioned or to some extract thereof ioyned with another like answere of the same Authors to D. Allens booke of Purgatorie and to my handes it came a fewe wéekes agoe euen an 1578 stylo R. this late Christmas Sith which time reading it twise ouer I finde that he neuer so much as once mentioneth either my Motiues or my Demaundes and much lesse doth he euer goe about to infringe any of my probations therein conteined And yet notwithstanding this depe silence Fulke li. 2. p. 107. in one place he bewrayeth him selfe to haue knowen of them where he glaunceth at the diuine worke of a certayne healing which I reported in my Motiues Moti 5. fol. 19. and sayth As you haue myracles now in Flaunders of the honest woman of the olde Baily in London Although otherwise also who can thinke it possible for him to haue heard nothing at least when he sought to print his of bookes written so late of the same matter and so well knowen to the Superintendent of London and innumerable others of that side whiche also any man that had séene the copie that Fulke answereth might easily conceiue to procéede from the same Author and me onely to be his scholar howbeit I also not obscurely professed as much where I said Mot. f. 2· The preiudices and euidences for the Catholike faith against all heresies are innumerable and superable and my chaunce it hath bene through the mercifull prouidence and goodnes of God to liue certayne yeres in companie with Catholike men of great vertue wisdome and knowlege blessed of God most liberally with his graces such as our miserable countrey is not worthy of whose dayly familiar talke of such things I haue vsed to heare as to my great admiration so likewise with all diligence and attention And what I haue through such communication at sundry times or of my selfe at other times by meanes thereof obserued I purpose as memorie shall serue me and God assist me béeing thervnto both iustly moued and earnestly required in this booke at once to vtter it in part If I may say what I do ghesse hereat I suppose that it should still haue lyen by him Fulk to the Reader as it hath done he saith these eyght or nyne yeares and neuer haue bene put in print but only for shew of an answere to my Motiues and Demaundes specially séeing that where as D. Allens writing was called onely by the name of Articles this man at euery Article hath also printed the worde Demaundes because euery Article consisteth of certayne Demaundes by meane whereof I knowe already my selfe some that are deceyued and thinke it to be an answere vnto me yet in trueth it toucheth not me at all neither maketh any iuste answere to D. Allen but all so simply and so féebly that he is fayne to set it out without priuiledge as also his other booke agaynst Purgatorie Ibidem though that booke was authorized he saith almost two yeares ago wherein I knowe not whether we may beléeue his bare worde for many causes easie to be here noted and one namely for that he thus writeth in the same We beleeue that Pa. 450 VVhat if the Church vvere in Englande only or one vvere king of al countreis sometime vvher it is the Catholike Church hath no chiefe gouernour vpon earth but Christ vnto whom all power is giuen in heauen and earth Well if it haue authoritie at the least without priuilege it hath it and his former booke
as before And agayne Neither do we require you to beleeue any one companie of men Ar. 62. more then another but to beleeue the truth before falshood which you must search in the word of truth It was belike for this much other such Apocriphall stuffe that your booke was kept in so long and in the end also faine to come forth without priuiledge Yea he is so peremptorie in his exception Fuâ—e vvil not beleeue the Apostles nor the Angels vvithout Scripture the most absurdly he attributeth to the Apostles themselues without scripture no more then to Iackstraw and consequently with scripture as much to Iackstraw as to the Apostles For thus he saith speaking of D. Allen He speaketh it because he beleeueth it Pur. 24.4 2. Cor. 4. He would faine counterfeit his speach like the Apostle but the ground of his beliefe is not as the Apostles was the word of God but the practise of meÌ„ which though they were neuer so good yet they were suche as might deceiue and be deceiued Againe Pur. 449. Gal. 1. where he abuseth that which S. Paule speaketh to the Galathians of preaching their receiuing of it turneth it as spoken of onely Scripture It vexeth you at the very hart saith he that we require the authoritie of the holy Scriptures to confirme your doctrine hauing a plaine coÌ„maundement out of the word of God that if any man teache otherwise then the word of God alloweth he is to be accursed As though S. Paul there commaunded to accurse him self and al the Apostles the vniuersall Church of Christ if they confirmed not all their doctrine with expresse Scriptures in such maner as you here require No Syr nothing so Onely he accurseth them which should preach contrarie to that he had preached the Galathians had receiued which was as you see traditioÌ„ by mouth in which maner he taught them other Churches all Christian Religion therein as one principall point the Canon of the scriptures both old new if at the leastwise any Bookes of the newe as then were written which could not be many before the Epistle to the Galathians being as by conference of times it may well be proued the first of all S. Paules Epistles And so much of the Churches authoritie in her Iudgements and Practise namely of her diuine Seruice Whervnto I ioyne as the principalles in the authoritie first the Councells and secondly the Popes For to theÌ„ likewise he maketh his exceptioÌ„ Pur. 430. Councels Dem. 27. saying Wherfore if any CouÌ„cell decree according to the Scriptures as the CouÌ„cel of the Apostles did Act. 15. the CouÌ„cel of Nice with diuers other we receiue them with all humilitie as the oracles of God But if any Councell decree contrarie to the authoritie of the Scriptures as many did without all presumption or pride we may iustly reiect them Pur. 194. See Apostolike Dem. 28. Then of the other Yet is not all that Gregorie writ of equall authoritie with the word of God without authoritie whereof we beleeue not an Angel from heauen as I haue often shewed much lesse a Bishop of Rome And not onely against eche Pope seuerally but also against their whole line and entire Succession he excepteth in like maner saying Succession Dem. 43. Aâ— 28. Although we could rehearse in order as many Successions in our Church as the Papistes boast of in theirs yet were that nothing to proue it to be the Church of Christ which must be tried onely by the Scriptures And a little after We require at the Papistes handes that they shew them selues to hold the Church not by Succession of Bishops or rehearsing of their names but onely by the Scriptures For although wee did rehearse innumerable names of Bishops in orderly Succession on our side wee would not require men to beleeue vs but onely because wee proue the doctrine of our Churche by the authoritie of the Scriptures In déede we must acknowledge Fulke vvhat a frankeling that you deale very frankely with vs to renounce so fréely such a goodly euidence because you can not make so much as any shew thereof For otherwise when you haue any collour of any thing at all what mountybanke pedler is so facing so boasting so vaunting as you and your fellowes iiij Against the Fathers Fathers Dem. 26. Now after all this I will open his like excepting against the Fathers both in generall and also expressing diuerse of their names although it hath bene opened in part alreadie by other occasions And touching the first true it is that he often braggeth much of the Fathers which liued in the first a Ar. 39. Pu. 30.177 435.370.371 two hundred or b Pur. 186.247.304.331.357.364.382 one hundred yeares chalenging vs to proue our doctrine out of them and not out of the later Fathers after them euen with as much reason as he commonly chalengeth vs to proue all out of the scriptures vtterly without all ground but méere voluntarily * Fulkes tvvo Onelies the one as the other which ensample therefore is much to be noted But here notwithstanding I shall declare howe he excepteth smothly and simply against all the Fathers against all in general and expresly also saying were they neuer so auncient Wherin how well he agréeth with him selfe I deferre to the eleuenth Chapter And in effect he hath already so done in calling so often afore for Onely Scripture But yet to shew it more manifestly and as it were the very face it selfe thus he saith Pur. 205. Whatsoeuer he was or howe long soeuer it be since he wrote because it hath not authoritie in the word of God I weigh it as the wordes of a man whose credit in diuine matters is nothing without the word of God Againe Pur. 202. When all authoritie out of Gods word faileth you wherby you should proue that the soules departed receiue benefite by the merites of the liuing you flye to the authoritie of men But mans authoritie is to weake to carie away so weightie a matter Away with mens writings shew me but one Scripture to proue it Againe If for these and an hundred suche Pur. 22. you can shew no better warrant then the tearmes of your fathers the practise of your elders or the authoritie of mortall men the curse of God by Esay must nedes be turned ouer vnto you Againe Pur. 58. Your reasons either be manifest wrestings of the holy Scripture or else are buylded vpon the authoritie of mortall men Againe Pur. 386. We neede no shift M. Allen for the authoritie of the Doctors whom we neuer allow for Canonicall Scriptures and therefore we may boldly say Whatsoeuer we find in theÌ„ agreable to the Scriptures he meaneth expressed in the Scriptures we receiue it with their prayse and whatsoeuer is disagreable to the Scriptures we refuse with their leaue Againe Pur. 363. Now touching the credite and
of faith in time of Heresie and also of communion in time of Schisme S. Hierome was readie to be ruled by the B. of Rome and that all others by his iudgement and expositiō of Scripture must likewise do in so muche that he saith further to Damasus in the same Epistle Whosoeuer gathereth not with thee he scattereth hoc est that is to say Qui Christi non est Leo Epist 89. ad Epis vien proui Antichristi est Whoso is not Christes he is Antichristes because as S. Leo the great saith Petrum in consortium indiuiduae vnitatis assumpsit Christus Christ tooke Peter into the participation of vndiuided vnitie so that it should be all one to be Peters and to be Christes to be in vnitie with Peter and his Successor and to be in vnitie with Christ One more expositor yet you alleage saying Pur. 320. Which of your Prelates will folow Ambrose in his Commentary vpon the Apocalypse where he interpreteth the whore of Babylon to be the citie of Rome I will recite his wordes for you Amdro in Apoc. 17. This whore doth betoken in some places Rome in speciall quae tunc ecclesiam Dei persequebatur which then in S. Iohns time did persecute the Church of God In some places in generall the citie of the Diuell that is to say the whole bodie of the Reprobate Is not this now a perilous point with our Prelates so to touch the citie of Rome in S. Iohns time which did persecute the Church of Rome that is the Clargie and other Christians of Rome But of the Church of Rome the vndoubted Ambrose saith if you remember Ambro. de Sacramen lib. 3. ca. 1. In all thinges I couet to folow the Romane Church so protesting because he had occasion there to defende a certaine custome of his owne Church at Millaine which the Romane Church had not cuius typum in omnibus sequimur et formam whose paterne and samplar we follw in all thinges which notwithstanding he there declareth that other Churches may vpon good cause haue some ceremonie that the Church of Rome hath not Likewise he calleth Peter primum and fundamentum the first and the foundation in the very same place where say you he affirmeth Pur. 320. Ambro. de Inc. d. c. 4.5 that Peter is not the foūdation So faithfully you deale with your Reader He doth there excellently cōfute by Peters confession the Heresies that were against Christes Diuinitie Incarnation While other mens opinions were in rehearsing Peter though alwaies most forward held his peace But when he once heard Vos autē now what do your selues say of me statim loci non immemor sui Primatum egit Immediately being not vnmindefull of his place he exercised the Primacie The Primacie of confession pardie not of worldly honor the Primacie of faith non ordinis not of worldly degree And beneath Faith is the foundation of the Church Non enim de carne Petri sed de fide dictum est For it was not said of Peters flesh but of his faith Mat. 16. that the gates of death shal not preuaile against it his confession ouercommeth hel Al which we say in the same maner Heretikes and other ministers of the diuel may preuaile against the flesh of a Pope but his faith but his confession aswell in the articles that be now in controuersie as in those at that time will stand when they shall all be sunke downe into their due place The rest of the Popes Supremacie Ar. 36.37 Pur. 287.373.374 And here by the waye because the place is most conuenient and because it is sone done to answer vnto that you say Ireneus Polycrates Dionysius Alexandrinus Cyprianus the Councell of Africa and Socrates the Historiographer did preach or write against the Popes authoritie when it first began to aduance it selfe in Victor Cornelius Stephanus Anastasius Innocētius Zozimus Bonifacius and Celestinus I say first that all those Popes were of the true Church by your owne confession here cap. 2. and therefore you are contrarie to your selfe in making other Popes to be Antichrist for claiming suche authoritie as these did Secondly that all those writers did communicate with those Popes And therefore your Schismaticall separation hath no helpe of them Thirdly that no one of them wrot against the Popes authoritie as you pretend What did they then of Ireneus Polycrates and Dionysius touching S. Victor and of Cyprianus touching S. Stephanus I report the trueth here ca. 10. in the 28. demaund Cyp. ep 55 68. seu li. 1. Ep. 3.4 The same S. Cyprian doth exhort S. Cornelius to be as stout in not loosing certaine Africane heretikes vnder the degrée of Bishops as their owne Bishop had bene in binding them He also noteth in S. Stephanus some litle negligence but much more wilfull obreption in those two lapsed Bishops of Spaine Basilides and Martialis who had cōcealed from him the truth that in their supplication they should haue expressed which because they did not he sayth wel that their restitution by the Pope could not stand them in stéede against their former deposition by the Bishops of their owne prouince This which so plainely maketh for the Popes authoritie you are so blinde to bring against it As concerning the Councels of Africa Milenis the question betwene them those other fiue Popes was not about the matters of the vniuersal Church as for example matters of the faith quoties fidei ratio ventilatur for such matters they also them selues did referre to the Apostolike iudgement of those Popes antiquae scilicet regulae et traditionis formam secuti quam toto semper ab orbe mecum nostis esse seruatam Apud Aug Epi. 94.93 Innocē ad Con. Cart. Milenit Aug. e. 106. Con. Iul. li. 1. cap. 2. De pec ori con Pelag. cap. 8. following the forme of the old tradition and Canon which saith Pope Innocentius vnto them in those Epistles which S. Augustin being one of them doth often commend most highly as very answerable to the Sea Apostolike you as well as I do know to haue bene kept alwaies of all the world but about matters of perticuler persons as Appeales of Bishops And that question also was not about the Popes authoritie therin but what order the Nicene Councel which first was confirmed and always afterward most exactly obserued of S. Peters Sée as Municipall lawes are of good kings had taken therein And of the inferior Cleargie there was no such question but they should holde them selues quiet with the iudgement of theyr owne prouince if not of their owne Bishop without appealing further according to Con. Aphric cap. 92. which you alleage and according to Concil Sardicen Can. 17. which is alleaged Concil Carthag 6· cap. 6. 7. But that Bishops might so appeale the Popes auouched both by the old continual custome Con. Cart. 6. ca. 2. wherof no man can denie but there
more playnely in the sixt Chapter But Fulke replieth to this and saith Wheras M. Allen alloweth all the interpretations that the Fathers haue made of the text 1. Cor. 3. by him alleaged as true so long as they affirmed no error he may by the same reason affirme that Contradictories are true As in that saying Mat. 5. of him that shall not come out vntill he haue payd the vttermost farthing some haue expounded that he shal be alwaies punished some that he shall not be alwaies punished How is it possible that both these interpretations can be true Mary thus it is true those He He are not one He but He that shal be alwaies punished is he that to the end of the way that is of this life agréeth not with his aduersarie whom he had deadly iniuried as saying vnto him Fatue and thereby incurring the gilt of Gehenna ignis which is the prison of the damned He that shall not be alwaies punished is he whose iniurie was but veniall Cap. 8. par 3. diui 2. as Racha And so both interpretations agrée wel not onely together but also with the text it selfe as likewise in the last chapter I declared And so much of the Doctors interpretations Now to the other kind of their Testimonies which he alleageth against vs about any of our Controuersies Secondly whether the Doctors geue any other kinde of testimonie against vs. j About the Bookes of Machabees And first although it be but a by matter whether the Machabees be Canonicall Scripture or no because the last thing that I intreated of was the Scriptures that be of purgatorie and the Protestantes denie the Machabées for this expresse saying 2. Mac. 12. It is an holy and healthfull meaning to pray for the dead that they may be released of their sinnes And touching this matter he alleageth no Doctor Pur. 214. but onely S. Hierome in two places The answere wherof D. Allen gaue before and that rightly and truly as we shall well perceaue if first we remember what he alleaged for the other part Fulke briefly both reporteth it also replieth vnto it in these wordes M. Allen pretendeth to proue the booke of Machabees Canonicall by authoritie of the Church See cap. 11. coâ—ad 35 when he can not by consent that it hath with the Scriptures of God As though all bookes are Canonicall Scripture which haue consent with the Scriptures The Machabées in déed haue so as also innumerable bookes of Catholike writers and Caluins Institutions too I trow But the Churches authoritie and not such Consent it is that proueth them Canonical The Churches authoritie for the Machabes And the Churches authoritie D. Allen bringeth out of the third Carthage Councell whiche Fulke in his answere saith was a Prouinciall Councell but he must remember that in the 4. Chapter to proue the whole true Church to erre he told vs that this Prouinciall Synode hath the authoritie of a Generall Councell because it was confirmed in the Sixt Generall Councell holden at Constantinople in Trullo And therfore he cannot auoid it but that the Machabées are Canonicall by authoritie of the whole true Church and therfore in déede also Canonicall if any Scripture at all and specially such as was euer by any doubted of be Canonicall whether the true Church may erre or no. And therfore againe he doth but labour in vaine to shew that the Carthage Councell did erre in that Canon because it nameth among the Canonicall Scriptures also fiue bookes of Salomon whereas the Church sayth Fulke as though he had not confessed this Councell to be the Church as much as any other alloweth but three namely the Prouerbes the Preacher and the Canticles Not knowing what S. Augustine that was one of that Councell as Fulke him selfe saith writeth as it were of purpose to geue vs the meaning of that Councell and of others likewise speaking where he also reconeth vp all the same Canonicall Scriptures as the Councell doeth Au. de doc christ lib. 2. cap. 8. And three bookes of Salomon sayth hée the Prouerbes the Canticles of Canticles and Ecclesiastes For those two bookes the one intituled Wisdome the other Ecclesiasticus de quadam similitudine Salomonis esse dicuntur for a certaine likenes are saide to be Salomons although in déede the be not his but Ecclesiasticus is Iesus Siraches and Sapientia is an incertaine authors Aug. Retr li. 2. ca. 4. as S. Augustine partely in the same place partly in his Retractations doth say Againe saith Fulke Pur. 215.457 Aug. con 2 Gaudentij Ep. li. 2. c. 23 for an other answere to the Carthage Councell in what sense they did call those bookes Canonicall appeareth by Augustine that was one of that Councell And this Scripture of the Machabees non habent Iudaei sicut c. The Iewes compt not as the Law and the Prophetes and the Psalmes What then Here you see saith Fulke that Augustine howsoeuer he alloweth those bookes yet he alloweth them not in ful authoritie with the law Prophets and Psalmes That which S. Augustine reporteth of the Iewes he ascribeth to S. Augustine him selfe Although also it follow in Augustine immediatly Sed recepta est ab Ecclesia But it is receiued of the Church not vnprofitably if it be soberly read and heard Which wordes also Fulke there alleageth with this note that S. Augustine alloweth not these bookes If Fulke be sober the Machabees are Gods vvord If he be not vvhose fault is that 2. Peter 2. without condition of sobrietie in the reader or hearer As though he allowed no booke of Scripture in ful authoritie because both he all other Catholikes with S. Péeter do require the same condition in the reader of the whole Scriptures that he wrest them not like a madde man to his owne damnation as all heretikes do and as the Donatistes did compting them selues Martyrs if they killed them selues and mainteining it with the example of Razias out of the Machabées to which S. Augustine there answereth He that would in déede know in what sense S. Augustine and his Councell call those bookes Canonicall let him consider that vnder one name of Canonicall they recken at once these with all the other Holy bookes of both Testaments Au. 2. doc christ 8. Totus Canon Scripturarum his libris continetur The whole Canon of the Scriptures is conteined in these bookes Fiue of Moises that is Conc. Cart. 3. Can. 47. Genesis c. sayth S. Augustine And the Councell in like maner Sunt autem canonicae Scripturae and the Canonical Scriptures are these Genesis c. Loe they call them all Canonicall in one and the same sense although S. Augustine there instructeth the student of diuinitie whilest all were not yet generally receaued of the whole Church to preferre some before others Fulkes obiections Read the chapter afore where S. Augustine requireth seauen conditions in the student of Scripture before he be perfect
and you shall perceiue that it is but for lacke of the second which is Mitescere pietate to be meeke by pietie that you so presumptuously make obiections Pur. 386.208 calling them in your pryde vnauoidable resons against those bookes which by your own confession the whol true Church hath Canonized And what be these vnauoidable resons First because the author of the second booke commendeth one Razis for killing himselfe 2. Mac. 7. Au. 2. Gau. 23. ep 61 which is contrary to the worde of God S. Augustine answereth the Donatistes you at once saying Touching this his death the Scripture hath told it how it was done it hath not commended it as though it was to be done Secondly you say he abridgeth the fiue bookes of Iason But the Holy Ghost maketh no abridgementes of other mens writinges The booke of the Kinges in how many places it singnifieth that it abridgeth stories telling where they be written more at large in other bookes that were not Canonicall And is not S. Marke commonly called Breuiator the abridger of S. Mathew Also euery Sermon and letter in the Actes of the Apostles Aug. de cōsen Euang. li. 1. ca. 2.3 is it not an abridgement The Holy Ghost knoweth to poure againe through his new vessels both péeces of other mens writinges as you see Act 17. Tit. 1. and also bookes much more of Iason the Hebrew as also of Ethnike Poetes Thirdly He confesseth that he tooke this matter in hand that men might haue pleasure in it which could not away with the tedious long stories of Iason But the Spirit of God serueth not such vaine delight of men Is it vaine delight to desire profitable breuitie In your preface to the Reader you say I haue vsed great breuitie by a naturall inclination whereby I loue to be shorte in any thing that I write Do you compt your inclination a vaine inclination And who séeth not that in al the bookes of holy Scripture there is great obseruation of breuitie that amongst other causes also to auoide tediousnes Fourthly He sheweth what labour and sweat it was to him to make this abridgement ambitiously commendeth his trauill and sheweth the difference betwene a story at large an abridgemēt al which things sauour nothing of Gods Spirit And specially that in the end for al this you carp in the preface 2. Mac. 2. he cōfesseth his infirmitie desireth pardon if he haue spoken slenderly and barely Wherby he testifieth sufficiently that he was no scribe of the Holy Ghost That he ambitiously commendeth his trauell is but your blasphemie without any occasion geuen by him All the rest standeth wel ynough with the assistance of the Holy Ghost vnlesse you think that the scribes of the Holy Ghost may not speak of themselues as of men humano more or the they must alwayes be eloquent alwaies able to do al without swet without labour Doth not S. Paul asmuch cōfesse his like infirmitie whē he saith 2. Cor. 11. Etsi imperitus sermone though I be rude in speking Yea doth he not excuse his bouldnes for writing to the Romanes who were so full of all knowledge and saith that he did it not but onely to put them in remembrance of that which they knew well ynough before Rom 15. did he not also in that Epistle for his ease vse Tertius his hand Rom. 16. and the like commonly in writing all his other Epistles also as appeareth 2. Thes 3 That I speake nothing of his intollerable paines taken in Preachinge wherein also he was the instrument of the Holy Ghost and not onely in his Epistles These are forsooth your vnauoideable reasons Now to S. Hierome Hieromes testimonies Pu. 214. M. Allen aleageth the authoritie of Hieronym in prol Mach. But what he meaneth thereby or what place he noteth I know not quoth you Who wil beléeue that you are so dul In the vulgare Latin Bibles is a preface vpon the bookes of Machabées in it are these wordes The Bookes of Machabees although in the Canon of the Hebrewes they be not had yet of the Church they are noted among the Stories of the diuine Scriptures Those vsual Prefaces are taken commonly of S. Hierom somtime for word somtime for sense and so is this as will appeare by the two places that you bring out of him In his preface vpon the Booke of Kings you say he doth not onely omit it in rehersall of the Canonicall bookes but also accompteth it plainly among the Apocryphal He there reporteh how many letters are apud Hebraeos with the Hebrewes to wit two and twentie and that accordingly number for number primus apud eos liber the first booke with them is Genesis and so forth to two twentie So expressy he sheweth that he rekoneth the bookes there after the Hebrewes and therefore that he speaketh of their Canon when he saith afterward that all without these is to be put among the Apocryphall Therfore Sapientia which is commonly intituled Salomons and Iesus booke the sonne of Sirach and Iudith Tobias and Pastor for that booke also he mentioneth among the bookes of the old Testament of which onely and not of any of the new Testament he there speaketh non sunt in Canone are not in the Canon The first booke of the Machabes I found in Hebrew The second is a Greeke Now what maketh this for you or against vs doth any of vs affirme that these bookes were in the Hebrewes Canon Pur. 215. But you haue another place out of S. Hierome to proue that they were neither in the Churches Canon In his Preface vpon the booke of Prouerbes Therfore euen as the Church readeth in deede the bookes of Iudith Tobias and Machabees but yet receiueth thē not among the Canonicall Scriptures So also these two bookes Ecclesiasticus and Sapientia let her reade as she doth for the peoples edification but not to confirme the authoritie of the Churches doctrines to wit against the Iewes that is the answere because their Canon hath not these bookes in it But among the Churches people they were also then read publikly and solemly in their course as well as the other bookes of Scripture As S. Augustine also witnesseth of one of them by occasion saying August de Praed San. cap. 14. The booke of Sapientia hath bene thought worthy to be recited at the deske in the church of Christ tam longa annositate so long a rew of yeres and with worship belonging to a booke of diuine authoritie to be harkened vnto of all Christian men from Bishops euen to the lowest sort of laymen faithfull penitentes and Catechumenes This was that reading of it to the peoples edification And euen so S. Hierome expoundeth him selfe in his Preface vpon the booke of Iudith saying With the Hebrues the booke of Iudith is read among the Hagiographal not amōg the (a) Hieron prol galeato in li. Regum nyne Hagiographal
that be Canonical but among others being Apocryphal Cuius authoritas c. The authoritie of which boke is thought lesse fit to confirme those things that come into contention betwéene the Hebrewes no doubt and vs. But notwithstanding the Hebrues counting it Apocryphal the Nicene Councell as we reade hath reckned this booke in the number of the Holy Scriptures As also S. Augustine distinguisheth saying Aug. de Ci. dei li. 18. ca 36 The supputation of the times after Esdras to Aristobulus is not found in the holy Scriptures which are called Canonicall but in others among which others are also the bookes of the Machabees which though the Iewes do not yet the Church counteth for Canonicall By all which it is playne that S. Hierome meaneth not as the Protestantes do when he saith that the Church receiueth not the bookes of Iudith Tobias and the Machabees among the Canonicall Scriptures For him selfe saith that the booke of Iudith is Canonicall by the Councell of Nice but only as I haue saide he instructeth the Christians béeing ignorant in the Hebrue tongue what bookes they should vse against the Iewes for which cause he also addressed his new Translation of the olde Testament out of the Hebrew as in many places he protesteth Hie. Apol. ad Ruff. and that the Church in Canonizing those other bookes meant not for all that that they should be vsed agaynst the Iewes who receiue them not and therfore would but laugh at vs for our labour Howbeit also if S. Hierome did saye in the Protestantes sense that the Churche then receyued not those bookes neither in her owne Canon that maketh nothing for the Protestantes For we graunt the time was when the Church did not generally receiue some of those bookes To make for the Protestantes he should haue saide that the Church and not only any priuate person neither did then nor ought afterwardes to receiue them Pur. 216. Where now is Fulke that saith Hieronym doth simply refuse these bookes of the Machabées Agayne Hieronym saith the Church receiueth them not for Canonicall Pur. 386. Yea moreouer I haue by the consent of the Catholike Church aunswered them And agayne of Tobias booke Pur. 215.230 I haue shewed by authoritie of Hieronym which is proofe sufficient agaynst the Papist that the Church receiueth not this booke of Tobias for Canonicall Scripture All this you saye but I haue shewed that not so muche as Hierome him selfe maketh with you though also if he did Supra pa. 1. eodem cap. that is not proofe sufficient agaynst vs as I haue tolde you playne inough before that it is onely the consent of the Doctours to whiche we attribute infallibilitie and the scope that of confidence of our cause we geue you to bring one Doctour if you can is not in these bymatters but in our principall controuersies And this much of the Canonicall Scriptures though it be somwhat besides my limites Whervnto yet I must néedes adde the place where you say thus Pur. 218. If Martyn Luther and Illyricus haue sometimes doubted of S. Iames Epistle they are not the first that doubted of it Eusebius sayth playnely it is a counterfeite Epistle lib. 2. cap. 23. and yet he was not accounted an heretike I say not this to excuse them that doubt of it for I am perswaded they are more curious then wise in so doing Do you make it but curiositie to doubt of that Scripture which your selfe also confesse to be Canonicall Howbeit Luther not onely doubted of it but also vtterly reiected it euen with as great courage as you haue here reiected the second of the Machabées and that also after the consent of the whole Church Is this no worse then Eusebius his fault before the Churches declaration O worthy estimation of Canonicall Scripture What matter will not you license them of your side to doubt of without note of Heresie when you dare so do in that which with you is the greatest And yet also to shewe what a marchaunt you are A falsarie Eusebius saith not as you charge him but the cleane contrarie Eu. li. 2. c. 22 His wordes are these Of Iames I reade so muche By whom the first of the Epistles which are named Catholicae is saide to be written But this one thing I maye not omit that although of some it is taken for a counterfeite because no suche number of the auncient writers maketh any mention at all of it as neither of that which is saide to be the Epistle of Iude which also is sette in the number of the seuen Epistles Catholicall Tamen nos istas cum reliquis in quamplurimis Ecclesijs publicè receptas approbatasque cognouimus Yet we haue founde these with the residue to be publikely receiued and approued in very many Churches ij About onely Scripture Next vnto this I take in hande the question of Onely Scripture thinking better to deferre the rest touching Purgatorie to the end of the chapter dispatching also all other questions before because they be shorter Howe he ascribed all authoritie to Onely Scripture and nothing to ought els we heard in the seuenth chapter If the Doctors be not of their ovvn side they be on â—ulks side Now he will beare the ignorant in hande that the Doctors were of the same opinion yet confessing withall that they helde the contrarie no lesse then we doo as partly in that same chapter we saw partly here agayne we shall sée And therefore in this question agayne as in others afore it is no more agaynst vs then agaynst those Doctours them selues whatsoeuer he wresteth oute of their writings Cyprian would haue nothing done in the celebration of the Lords supper namely in ministring of the cup Pur. 287. but that Christ him selfe did li. 2. Epist 3. I answere he writeth there contra Aquarios against them that offered in the Chalice water onely whereas Christ offered wine That he calleth aliud quà m quod pro nobis dominus prior fecit An other thing then that which Christ did first for vs as being cleane against Christes doing and such a doing as he did for a tradition to vs. But otherwise to mingle the wine with water S. Cyprian there requireth and that also by Christes tradition and therfore he buildeth not vpon onely Scripture as you in alleaging him séeme to pretend Pur. 303. Now for an other Doctor where Chrysostome sayth It was decreed by the Apostles that in the celebration of the holy Mysteries a remembrance should be made of them that are departed we will be bold to charge him with his owne saying And there you alleage foure places out of him against him selfe as it were for onely Scripture Is not this pretie shewing of the Doctors to be of your side And what are these places of S. Chrysostome First IdeÌ„ Ar. 69. Hom. de Adam et Heua Satis sufficere c. We thinke it suffiseth enough whatsoeuer
then they be the Churches nowe answering whatsoeuer obiections you haue brought against them Ar. 5. Againe you say As for the Popish Church she is so blind that she can not discerne betwene the Canonicall bookes of the Scriprere from the Apocryphall writings as appeareth by receiuing the bookes of the Machabees Ecclesiasticus c. to be of equall authoritie with the bookes of the Law Psalmes c. The Popish Church that Canonized those bookes was the Primitiue although ye call them Heretikes which did it as I haue shewed playnly Pur. 214. and by your owne confession cap. 9. pag. 165. and that you are fayne to saye that also the Primitiue Church therein did erre S. Augustine therefore as he saith to the Manichie denying the Actes of the Apostles Cui libro necesse est me credere si credo Euangelio quoniam vtramque Scripturam similiter mihi Catholica commendat authoritas I must needes beleue this booke if I beleue the Gospell because the Catholike authoritie commendeth vnto me both those Scriptures alike so he saith vnto you denying the Machabées Ecclesiasticus Iudith c. I must néedes beléeue them if I beléeue the Gospell because they also be in the Canon of the same Church as he telleth you playnly here cap. 9. pag. 165. And therefore they are but words when you said erewhile We allow and beleeue the Primitiue Churches testimonie of the word of God And againe Ar. 10.9 We haue most steadfast assurance of Gods Spirite for the authoritie of Gods booke with the testimonie of the true Church in all ages and so we know it to be true You beleue the Gospell for the Churches testimonie euen as much as the Manichies did because you reiect her authoritie Canon in other bookes as they did in the Actes And therefore againe you do but condemne your selfe when you say Ar. 4.5 The Church of Christ commended the bookes of holy Scriptures to be beleeued of all true Christians And againe The Church of Christ hath of the holy Ghost a iudgement to discerne the word of God of infallible veritie from the writing of men which might erre In so saying you both iustifie vs who as we confesse that Church so we beleue her Canon and condemne your selues who confesse it to be the true Church and yet deny her Canon yea and generally her authoritie here in the 34. Dem. holding stiffely that she may erre and did erre in many things and therfore making Only Scripture your ground for all things Wherin how contrarie you be to your selfe any man may sée and I must note it in the next Chapter In the meane time I note Cap. 11. cōtradict 33.34.35 Ar. 8. that you shew your selues not to be the Church that cōmaunded S. Augustine to beleue the Gospell in that you say fréely We do not chalenge credite to our selues in any poynt so presumptuously as the Papistes that men must beleue it because we affirme it but because we proue it to be true by the worde of God By what place of Scripture did either the Primitiue Catholike Church proue to S. Augustine or could you proue to the Manichée the Actes of the Apostles to be of Canonicall authoritie The true Church of all times is of like authoritie and therfore that which was not presumption then is not presumption now But what will not your terme of Only Scripture serue you vnto when by it you argue say Ar. 6. Our Congregation hath euer had both right and possession of the Scriptures as appeareth by this that our Church Congregation beleueth nothing but that she learneth in them And that be not a notable plea to proue a right and a possession yea and a continual possession I report me to your Lawyers What a forehead and face haue you to say A substantiall lye that your companie had euermore possession of the Bible Is it not euident that Luther and all that are come of him tooke their Bibles of the Papistes Leaue your impudent facing it is not your new vpstart Congregation it is our Catholike Romane Church which hath continually kept her possession of this Treasure which she receiued of the Apostles She it is that reiecteth no one booke therof she it is that with Gods spirite hath kept them from corruption of all Heretikes Ar. 5. If also the Arrians Donatists Nouatians Eutichians and other Heretiks receiued all the bookes of Scripture What doth that proue but only that those Heretiks should rather be the true church then you and that we might not vse against them this piece of our argument as we doe against you but this rather that they had those Scriptures of vs and caryed them out with them whē they went out from vs. So did also the Greeke Church Ar. 6. and other Esterne Churches of Asia and therefore If vnto this day they haue kept them neuer so safely they are not for all that the true Church Euery Article of D. Allens is not to proue absolutely that we be the church but some only that you be not the Church When our Church was oppugned by other enemies she knew what she had then also to do So she had hath her proper Motiues against the Iewes and therefore it is a wise Demaund of yours when you say Why are not the Iewes the Catholike Church which haue kept the old Testament in Hebrue more faithfully then euer the Papistes We doe not now encounter with the Iewes but presupposing the Religion and Church that Christ and his Apostles did institute to be true we geue plaine notes how a man may know that the Protestāts haue it not as because they deny some Canonical bookes of Scripture the Churches authoritie which is the foundation of the Canon And therefore that no wise man should be moued when he heareth them to claime it and that by pretēce of Scripture and false carde of Onely Scripture from vs who doe so faithfully beléeue and haue so vncorruptibly keapt all the bookes of the same As for the Iewes old Testament I towched your blindnes therein cap. 7. pag. 103. sufficiently and also your desperate impudencie pag. 103. in charginge the Church with reiecting of the Scriptures 37. Stoarehouse of all Trueth Motiue 29. As in our Church at this day a man may find all the holy bookes which the Church in old time layed vp in her Canon thereof so likewise all other Truthes I say in my next Demaunde which in any of her Councels or otherwise she ruled ouer canonized at any time against any Heresie of her rebells or against any error of her owne obedient children that the Protestantes all other Heretikes haue no truth among them but they had it of our Church which Church therefore I say is now and euer and she onely the Stoarehouse both of Canonicall Scripture Iren. cōtra Heraeses li. 3 ca. 4. and of all trueth beside And therefore againe
doctrine against your receiued errors were accounted of the world so he tearmeth them whom he him selfe confesseth to haue bene the true Church for heretikes But you muste proue that their opinions are contrarie to the worde of God or else all your labour is in vayne Supra pag. 10. And for example more store the Reader may sée here in the third Chapter I will not dissemble saith he Aërius taught that prayer for the dead was vnprofitable as witnesseth both Epiphanius and Augustinus which they account for an error But neither of them both reproueth it by the Scripture Pur. 416. And the same againe in another place Nowe at the length commeth the author of this heresie by the testimonie of Epiphanius and Augustine But neither of them confuteth it by the Scriptures Pur. 426. And in an other place thus boldly For our parte it is sufficient that we knowe God in his holy word to be the first founder of our doctrine and therfore that they lye blasphemously which would make any heretike the author of it And therevpon he concludeth forsooth with great honestie saying Wherfore Ar. 44. if Aërius had not bene an Arrian this opinion could not haue made him an heretike Where to passe that blasphemie only this I say August ad quoduu in praef in epilogo that he séemeth not to know the purpose of S. Augustine in that booke De haeresibus ad quoduultdeum whiche he saith was likewise the purpose of Epiphanius not to coÌ„fute but only to report the heresies that had bene before his time and that not without great profite to the Reader Cum scire sufficiat c. because it is inough onely to know that the Catholike Churches iudgement is against these and that no man must receiue into his beliefe any one of these And agayne Multum adiuuat cor fidele c. It greatly helpeth the faithfull heart onely to know what must not be beleeued although he bee not able to confute it by disputing Loe then you faithfull heartes the case is so cleare Note â— seeke thâ— this conâ— of Fulkeâ— that the very aduersarie confesseth both that the same was the true Catholike Churche and also that it iudged Aerius to be an heretike helpe your selues therefore and make your profite of this confession assuring your selues vpon the Catholike Doctors lesson that séeing the Church was against Aerius the scripture could not be with him because one Spirit of truth speaketh both in the Church and in the Scripture As for Fulke and all that he here saith you sée it is no other then if Aerius Iouinianus or Vigilantius had said vnto you Aske my fellow whether I be a théefe Naught else it is that he there againe concludeth for those thrée heresiarkes saying Thus Ar 4â— you are not able to name any which preached any article of our doctrine but the same was consonant to the Scripture Of the same sort also in an other place Therefore M. Allen or Pur. 3â— S. Augustine rather if you will teach your Schollers to keepe vs at the baye as heretikes you must not teach them to bark and baule nothing but the Church the Church like tinkers curres O vvorâ— stimatioâ— he hath Church but you must instruct them to open cunningly out of the Scriptures how our doctrine is contrarie to the truth and yours agreeable to the same Againe like one that would appoint his enemie not to inuade him with a gunne because he knoweth not how to saue him selfe from the shotte of it but to take some other weapon that of his making in an other place he saith And especially in this controuersie Pur. 12 where either partie chargeth other with heresie howbeit I trow his partie chargeth not so S. Epiphanius S. Augustine though they so charge his Patriarke Aerius it had bene conuenient that the right definition or description of an heretike had bene first set downe that men might thereby haue learned who is iustly to be burdened with that crime For an heretike is he that in the Churche obstinately maintaineth an opinion that is contrarie to the doctrine of God conteined in the holy Scriptures which if any of vs can be proued to doe then let vs not be spared An herâ— a man in Church 〈◊〉 Fulk Fâ— a nobis 〈◊〉 Iohn Infra but condemned for Heretikes In déede if an Heretike be a man in the Churche you are cockesure and not only you and Aerius but Arrius Pelagius all other heretikes that euer were we rather with S. Augustine S. Epiphanius and such others in daunger To this place it belongeth that againe he sayeth Pur. 402. M. Allen giueth a speciall note that wee name not Iouinian or Vigilantius the playne auouchers of our opinions but rather labour to writh with plaine iniurie to the Author some sentence out of Augustine or Ambrose or some other that opened them selues to the world to beléeue the contrarie And thinketh we are ashamed of the other In deede if we depended vpon any mans authoritie or that any man or men were the Authors of our fayth wee should bee iniurious vnto them if we dyd not acknowledge our founders But seeing God him selfe is the Father of that doctrine which we haue receyued by his holy worde we are not ashamed of Vigilantius nor Berengarius when they agree therewith Onely the Canonicall Scriptures are the rule by which we iudge of all men and their writinges of all doctrine and the teachers thereof Pur. 409. Agayne And therefore it is but vayne bragging that you promyse to seeke out other Fathers of our perswasion then the Apostles of Christ by whose holy writinges we neuer refuse to be iudged For the Scripture is the onely high way to the truth with the guidance of Gods spirite And agayne You spend many wordes in vayne Pur. 412. to proâ—e that the first author of an opinion beyng found the opinion is found to be an heresie It shall bee graunted with all fauour but so that no man shall be counted the first author of an opinion that is able to proue his opinion out of the word of God And withall that whosoeuer is not able to proue by the word of God any opinion that he holdeth obstinately though he haue many authors before him yet he is neuerthelesse an Though iâ— be S. Augustine him selfe though he hold the foundation here cap. v. heretike And so much of their first authors founde out by vs as Aerius Iouinianus Vigilantius and such other old heresiarches condemned he confesseth by the true Church of Christ but contrarie he saith to the Scriptures of Christ Now on the other side being vrged by D. Allen to finde in like maner our first Authors or els it will follow the Apostles to be our authors Pur. 391. heare what he saieth therevnto Must we finde out the authors of your heresies nay iustifie them your selues by the word
worthinesse of these whom M. Allen so highly extolleth as I would not go about to diminish it if they were to be compared with vs so when they are As though vve opposed the doctors to the Apostles opposed against the manifest worde of God and the credite of the holy Apostles the ministers of the holy Ghost there is no cause that we shoulde be caried away with them That which he saith here as his Masters taught him of mortall men D. Allen knew aforehand and forewarned the Reader thereof where he said Melancton Pur. 384. as though he were no man that might erre himself saith the Doctors were men And againe to sée their absurditie in the same terme of mortall men Mortall men are compreheÌ„ded also the Apostles them selues and if they sometime séeme to separate them selues from it they meane then by the Apostles nothing but the Scriptures of the Apostles As Fulke in certaine places noted before and againe where he saith to D. Allen Ar. 59. You shal neuer bring vs to acknowledge that S. Paule is against vs in any article of our faith but we agree wholly with him Neuerthelesse I know what you meane and I will not be afrayde to vtter it For as much as immediatly after the Apostles time corruption entred into the Church you thinke that we dare not depend vpon any one mans iudgement and therein you are not deceiued for we must depend only vpon Gods word Euen so dealt the vnbeléeuers and the doubtfull and weake with the Apostles in their life time yea and with Christ him selfe and yet to winne such persons both the Apostles yea and Christ himself condescended to them accordingly If the Protestants would in like sort haue dealt with him them not to haue beléeued them in any thing without Scripture the faithfull I thinke for all that were not so straite laced but beléeued them vpon their own word not Christ onely but also his Apostles because of the spirite of truth that he sent to them and not to them onely but also to his Church after them for euer and therefore they will also no lesse at all times beléeue the said Church for the same spirite assuring them selues that the saide spirite agréeth still with him selfe whersoeuer and howsoeuer he speaketh be it in the Scriptures or be it in the Church and in the Church Primitiue or in the Church of later times and agayne in the Pastors of the Primitiue Church as the Apostles or in the Pastors of the Church afterwarde at any time in generall Councell or otherwise consenting together It is no maruayle after this generalitie to sée him now except against the Fathers in particular naming the times and the persons Ar. 60. as first the times where he saith The other writers of later yeres after Ireneus and Iustinus we are not afrayde to confesse that they haue some corruption wherby you may seeme to haue colour of defence for Inuocation of Saintes prayer for the dead Pur. â—87 and diuers Ceremonies And Although the custome of praying for the dead be an auncient error so that few of the later writers there are but they shew them selues to be infected therewith yet they had no ground out of the Scriptures to warrant their doing Pur. 262. Againe But of memories of the dead and prayers for the dead also we wil not striue but that they were vsed before the times of Cyprian Ambrose but without warrant of Gods word or authoritie of Scriptures but such as is pitifully wrested and drawen vnto them Againe Pur. 30. But it sufficeth you that your forefathers more then a thousand yeres ago called the place of sufferaÌ„ce Purgatory But I pray you what is it called in the Scripture either of the old Testament or the new Diuers errors be older then a 1000. yeres but age can neuer make falshood to be truth and therfore I weigh not your * It is pride to follovv the fathers and humilitie to coÌ„demn them proud brags worth a straw Againe And this was a great corruption of those ancient times that they did not alwayes weigh what was most agreable to the word of God but if the Gentiles or Heretikes had any thing Pur. 419. and the rest as aboue in the third Chapter And againe Supra pag. 9. Those of the auncient Fathers that agreed with you in any part of your assertion notwithstanding many excellent giftes that they had Pur. 436. dissented therein from manifest truth of the Scriptures And so by name likewise he saith of certayne as for example Damascene your doctor should first haue reproued that perswasion by Scripture Againe Pur. 412. Pur. 60. The supposall of S. Augustine is sette downe which because it is but the authoritie of a man it is not of sufficient weight to beare downe the testimonie of Gods word Againe Pur. 395. And euen the authoritie of Athanasius without the word of God is the authoritie of man We count not all his writings for Canonicall Scriptures but we iudge them by the Canonicall Scriptures And againe Pur. 255.256 Gregorie Nissene and Athanasius the Great There is no cause why we should beleue either of them both in an article of faith without the authoritie of the word of God The second part Beeing told that the question betwene vs is not as he maketh it of the Scriptures authoritie but of the meaning howe there likewise against all the Expositors he maketh the same exception of Only Scripture requiring also Scripture to be expounded by Scripture Now after all this froth of words let vs sée him come once to the poynt report him self the substance of our matter These be his owne words But the controuersie is not M. Allen fayth of the authoritie of the Scriptures in this matter Pur. 363 but of the true meaning of them which it is more like that they the Doctors being such men then we so farre inferior to them should know And what saith he therevnto I answere saith he and yet not one worde there to the question Else where he saith therevnto as I will report anone his words that also the meaning of the Scriptures must be searched out of the Scriptures onely Well syr but whencesoeuer and wheresoeuer it must be searched who is more like to finde it the Doctors or you and so neither that which you saye in other places answereth the question But in this place reade it who list your answere is quite cleane froÌ„ the questioÌ„ which was Whether be more like to know the true meaning of the Scriptures the Doctors or you And yet you pype vp the triumph there and say Thus haue these Heretikes no ground of their heresie but shift from the word of Scripture to Tradition from Tradition to the meaning of Scripture from the plaine meaning of Scripture to the opinions of men Yea and he counteth him selfe and his companies happie for such
bene otherwise expounded then of their cause Pur. 176. Yea and more then that The worde of God doth neither expresly nor by any probable collection allow it but manifestly condemne it Pur. 185. Againe He could not with any semely colour establish purgatorie by the authoritie of the Scripture the onely testimonie of Gods word and will reueiled and confirmed by his holy Spirite The Machabées to be euen so confirmed as well as the other bookes he can neuer auoyde and in effect he graunteth as I shall note in the eleuenth Chapter amongst his contradictions Which is sufficient I trow to make at the least a séemely colour and a probable collection but in déede also a conclusion so necessary that he can neuer answere it but by shaking the authoritie of all the Canonicall Scriptures in derogating from their confirmation which yet him selfe doth attribute to the holy Spirite The fourth part What great promises he maketh to bring most euident Scripture against vs and also by Scripture to proue his sence of the Scripture Triumphing also before the victorie saying that we dare not be tried by Scripture but reiect the Scriptures Wherevpon a fourefold offer is made vnto him Now that we haue séene howe precise he is with vs to admit 1 no euidence that we alleage but Scripture onely both in all controuersies and also in the exposition of Scripture and againe 2 no Scripture which maketh so playnly with vs that he can not auoyde it but by denying it to be Canonical though he graūt it to haue the confirmation of the same true Church which moueth him as the holy Ghost to receiue the other Scriptures for Canonicall and againe 3 no Scripture that he confesseth to be Canonicall vnlesse it make so expresly so playnly so manifestly and so necessarily with vs that it can not by any suttletie be auoyded It were to be séene nowe on the other side what Scriptures he alleageth against vs whether he obserue him selfe the law that he so rigorously prescribeth to vs whether his Scriptures be so playne so manifest so euident that by no sutteltie they can be auoyded But that we shall sée in the next Chapter no nede of sutteltie I assure you to auoyde or delude them so friuolous are his allegations that with al facilitie and truth we shall answere them Here in the meane time in the ende of this Chapter I will onely lay forth his great promises aforehande and so come orderly to the matter And to omit if he should haue to do with all the old and newe heresies what manifest necessary confutations he would frame against them all and euery one out of the Scriptures alone hauing fréely afore them renounced al other probations according to his former sayings here that all truth and all articles of our beliefe are playnly taught in the Scripture and may be so proued by Scripture that there is nothing that we are bound to know nothing that we are bound to do but it is so set forth in the scriptures His great promises I will charge him no more but with his promise that he maketh of so confuting vs by playne Scriptures notwithstanding that all other euidences make for vs in such sort as he hath already confessed Thus he saith Pur. 187. And that which I haue to saye in confutation of your heresie shall be no worse then the very word of God it selfe which is better then the consent of all the world against it And againe Pur. 30. I am one of the least of Gods Ministers yet by his grace and authoritie of his holy word I shal be able to ouerthrow both this and all other Babilonicall bulwarks that are cast vp by Satan all his instruments for the defence of Popish heresie against the truth of God And neither the myst of mens inuētions which you cal the light of Apostolike tradition shall be able to darken the truth of the Gospell nor the errors of mortall men which you terme the force of Gods trueth shall beare downe the authoritie of Gods holy spirite Againe Pur. 12. We be able to shew manifest euidence that our aduersaries doctrine is cleane contrarie to the Scriptures of God Againe Ar. 3. We affirme that the Apostles taught none other faith in stead of true Christianitie but that which we hold as we are ready to proue by the word of God Againe I can proue by S. Paules writings Ar. 59. that in all articles of faith he taught the same which we beleeue And for triall of this because it would require a whole volume if I should proue euery perticular article wherein we dissent from you Papistes If you will name an article in the next Chapter your selfe shall name ynowe Yet if you will let it be this that Antichrist is not one certaine person and that the Churches fléeing into the wildernesse at his comming is to become inuisible to the world and that the beginning of that comming and fleing should be so soone after Christes passion the continuaunce so many ages the end so long before Christes second cōming wherein we agree not with S. Paule If I be not able to proue that we agree with him in the meaning thereof I will reuoke that article and agree with you therein Yea and also to proue his owne meaning and to disproue our meaning when we both alleage Scriptures he will séeke as he required of vs to nothing likewise but Scripture it selfe For the meaning of the worde he saith you should beleeue vs rather then the Papistes because our groundes and proues are better then theirs or els we require not to be beleeued better then they And there againe If you bring out a false sense we beleeue you not because we knowe it to be false and are able to proue by the word of God that it is contrarie to the meaning of the holy Ghost His triumphing in lying These are his worthie promises Of which he hath béen so liberall belike because he knewe that we dare not once appeare when Scriptures be alleaged by the Protestantes For such are his wordes Pur. 380. We can shewe no cause in the world you say why wee neede in any one point of controuersie depart from your Church Yet M. Allen this one cause shall serue for all because your Church is departed from the truth of Gods word and dare not abide the tryall thereof but will sitte like a proude dame in a Chaire Ar. 28. and controll the Scriptures Againe The Popish Church can by no reason chalenge Apostles Euangelistes and Prophets seeing she refuseth to be tried by their doctrine vttered in their writinges Againe The spouse of Christ heareth the voice of Christ Ar. 99.6 and is ruled thereby But the Romish Church will in no wise be ruled Onely by the voyce of Christ therefore she is not the Spouse of Christ Where by his foysting in of the worde Onely in the Minor
Bestiam euen within one houre after the Beast that is together with Antichrist The vvhore Babylon to serue him as his féede knightes And so you sée euidently by these Seuen hills thus expounded that the woman which sitteth vpon them is not so litle a one as you do make her but that she is Mundus impiorum the whole multitude of the wicked euen frō the first beginning of the world to the last end thereof euen al in effect that at the later day shal be drowned in hel either for being of her Apo. 14.15 16.17.18 2. Pet. 2. or conforming them selues vnto her which in the Apocalypse is most manifest as the world of the wicked it was which was in the time of Noe drowned in the vmbraticall deluge So that Rome with the Emperour of it while it was against the Church was a member yet but a member of that woman As England contrariwise which was before so long together a notable member of the woman clothed with the Sunne is now become a member most miserable of the contrarie woman and for rewarde of her mutation and Apostasie thus plagued of God that now she must heare the Scriptures so perniciously detorted in all pulpits at large and may not heare them truely sincerely healthfully reported so muche as in poore papers which if she might fréely and much more in pulpits downe downe god wot full soone would this lying and absurd new Gospell come as by this litle which hath bene here saide any man of reason will not denie And now to our third question which is of Purgatory The third part Concerning the question of Purgatory D. Allen in the end of his booke of Purgatory made two chapters of answere to their Scriptures yet saith Fulke at the first of the two This Chapter is but Pro forma tantum Pur. 437. To make a shew of a confutation where the tenth part of our arguments are not rehearsed notwithstanding there and other where vp and downe he said inough to answere all But I shal endeuour therefore to satisfie the man better in this behalfe collecting together not only the tenth part but euen al his scriptures not omitting as much as one by my will though such collecting and disposing of things so dispersed cost me in euery Chapter of this booke as much or more labour then to answere the same afterward Well syr then you reason against Purgatorie by authoritie of Scripture in part negatiuely in part affirmatiuely And your negatiue reasoning is sometimes of a piece onely sometimes of the whole Scripture Againe when it is out of a piece onely it is partly out of some one place partly out of some one booke j Ab authoritate Scripturae negatiuè First therfore whatsoeuer you say negatiuely out of a piece whether it be one place or one booke you haue your selfe answered it for me Pur. 449. whatsoeuer it be in these words It is no good Logike to conclude negatiuely of one place or booke of Scripture This is not conteined in it therefore it is not true These be your owne words euen also speaking there of this selfe same matter euen of Purgatory Neuerthelesse to deale more substantially I will not sticke to rehearse those places also and to answere them particulerly One of them is 1. Thes 4. vpon which in your negatiue diuinitie you demaund and say Pur. 236. How hapneth it that in so necessary a place S. Paule findeth no other comfort to moderate the mourning of the faithfull but only the quiet rest of thē that are asleepe in the Lord and the hope of their glorious resurrection Sruely if S. Paule had bene of Chrysostomes mind he would haue prescribed other maner of comfortes Against the Fathers also as Chrysostome doth to wit exhorting them to prayers and almes for their friendes departed rather then to mourne so immoderatly Séeing you so reason out of this place I pray you let me aske you Haue you whensoeuer in Sermon or otherwise you would moderate the mourning of the faithfull no other comfort but onely these two yea I say more If you haue no mo comforts in that case and if there be no moe then S. Paule there prescribeth surely there is but onely one to wit the hope of resurrection For although he name them that are asleepe in the Lorde yet of their quiet rest after that sléeping that is to say after their death he saith nothing it is but your owne addition Another place with your negatiue Logikes demaund is where hauing graunted Pur. 362. that Tertullian Cyprian Augustine Ieronym and many more are witnesse that the solemne prayer for the dead in celebration of the Sacrament is the tradition of the Apostles you pose the Papistes notwithstanding and aske Why then the same is not set foorth by Matthew Marke Luke or Paule where they set foorth the institution of the Sacrament Your wordes at large and my aunswere go afore in the laste Chapter pag. ◠sauing that piece of your wordes which conteineth your negatiue reason most clearely and most boldly saying But agaynst this faigned tradition S. Paule cryeth with open mouth 1. Corin. 11. That which I deliuered vnto you I receyued of the Lorde c. This is the onely true substance of the Sacrament and onely right order of ministration and onely right vse and proper end thereof So you make as though the Apostle there prescribeth the whole order of ministration in so muche that it onely and no other may be the right order thereof contrarie to that whiche followeth in the same place Infra ca. 11. contr 44. The rest I will set in order when I come You declare your great skill in the Scripture when here so farre you misse of the Apostles purpose which was onely agaynst vnworthy receauing The greatnesse of that sinne he sheweth because of the Reall presence of Christ yea and that in the same maner as he was in his death Looke better vpon the place and sée whether it be not as I saye or rather as S. Augustine sayth Au. ep 118. ad Ian. ca. 3 Inde enim Apostolus indignè dicit acceptum ab eis qui non discernebant a ceteris cibis veneratione singulariter debita quod satis toto ipso loco in Epistola ad Corinthios prima si diligenter attendatur apparet For that respect the Apostle also doth say that they receaue it vnworthily who doe not by due and singularlye due worshippe discerne it from the rest of meates as sufficiently appeareth through that same whole place in the firste Epistle to the Corinthians if it be diligently considered So then where the Apostle intended no more but to correct the sinne of vnworthye receyuing there to require of vs to shewe that he prescribeth it to be offered for the dead yea and the whole order of ministration haue not you forsooth great reason And euen as great you haue where you argue out of particular
terme call the boulke of a thing As for the interior substance that question belonged to his Incarnation not to his assumption whereof nowe they talke Neither may any Logician thinke it straunge for the worde Substantia to be so vsed if he consider well howe the worde Corpus is vsed in the predicament of Quantitie though it be otherwise a species of Substantia But the mysticall likenes saith the Heretike chaungeth at the least his former calling For it is no more named that which it was tearmed before but it is called Body Therefore also the veritie in heauen must be called God and not Body Not so saith the Catholike It is named not onely Corpus Body but also panis vitae Bread of life And so likewise the body in heauen we name it Diuinum corpus viuisicum dominicum docentes non esse commune alicuius hominis c. The diuine and viuificall and Dominicall body teaching that it is not a common one of some mans but our Lordes Iesus Christ who is God and man Where you sée that suche a difference as he putteth betwene our common bodies and our Lord Gods body the like he putteth betwene common bread and this bread of life which therefore with him is Christes body vnder the forme of bread béeing thereby become as properly bread as coÌ„mon bread is bread and not the common substance of common bread which no man can say to be bread of life vj. About the Sacrament of Penance Now to approche nearer to Purgatorie about the Sacrament of Penance the Church of God saith foure things First that by the Priestes absolution the guilt of sinne is remitted and so the penitent reconciled to God and therefore pardoned the eternall payne of hell Secondly that after this remission for all that he may yet be in debt of some temporall payne Thirdly that he may and must pay the same temporall debt by workes of Satisfaction Fourthly that vpon good cause a Bishop may pardon it in parte and the Pope wholly Against these foure points Fulke alleageth saying Absolution Pur 168. But what auayleth this submission to Gods ministers when the Priest doth not by his Absolution take away one houres tormentes in Purgatorie as both M. Allen him selfe in effect confesseth and the master of Sentences also teacheth It auayleth to take away the eternall torments of hell Is that nothing with you When you be in them your saucie tong would giue all the world for the least touch of the fingers ende of Gods Priestes whom now in your hereticall pride you despise farre more then the riche Iewe did poore Lazarus Temporall debt remayning after Absolution Agaynst the second you alleage Augustine and Chrysostome euen against themselues for in the third chapter pag. 16. you confessed them both to stand for Purgatorie which implieth debt of payne after remission of sinnes But go to what saith Austine He saith quoth you of the deaths of Moises Aaron Pur. 42. Aug. in vet Test lib. 4. ca. 53 that they were signes of things to come not punishments of Gods displeasure This is your sinceritie His wordes immediatly afore be these When it is said to them Vt apponantur ad populum suuÌ„ that they should be gathered to their people It is manifest that they be not in the wrath of god which separateth from the peace of the holy eternall societie And thereby it is manifest that also their deathes were signes of things to come which things he there declareth and not punishments of Gods indignation You sée how precisely he speaketh to wit of Gods wrath indignation which punisheth by death to separate from his people for euer least he should haue spoken contrarie to the most manifest texte and to him selfe a litle before where he said that God foretolde them both quod ideo non intrarent that therefore they should not enter into the lande quia non eum sanctificauerunt because they doubted of his gifte that water could flowe of a Rocke And so is the text it selfe moste euidently Nu. 20.27 Deut. 32. You shall not bring this people into the lande but you shall dye because you did not beleeue me because you offended me because you trespassed against me And yet you will not graunt that for their sinne the fault béeing remitted they were punished by death These are they that will not stand agaynst euident Scripture Likewise about the example of Dauid you say Pur. 43. I would wish no better authoritie of the auntient Fathers then euen that which M. Allen him selfe alleageth out of Augustine contra Faustum li. 22. cap. 67. that the punishment of Dauid was flagelli paterni disciplina the chastisement of Gods fatherly scourge as he doth moste playnely declare the same in his booke De pec mer. ac rem li. 2. ca. 23. Is suche authoritie so good to proue that after the fault is forgiuen that is after the sonne is receiued againe into fauour no payne is owing Belike then you scourge your children that offend not aswel as them that haue offended and them also that haue offended you scourge not only after that you haue receiued them agayne into fauour but also after that you haue pardoned them all punishment Then surely are you as wise a father as a diuine No reasonable man but hearing of a fathers scourge would by by gather of it punishment for some offence where you gather the contrarie A fathers scourge ergo no punishmeÌ„t But your author S. Augustine doth not so In the chapter before commending his humility sub flagello dei 2. Reg. 16. vnder Gods scourge when Semei so diuelishly reuiled him he reporteth how Dauid said Meritis suis hoc redditum superno iudicio That this was executed vpon him by Gods iudgement for his desertes that is for the same matters of Vrias wherof he speketh in the place by you alleaged out of the Chapter following and saith that the Prophet Nathan told him quòd acceperit veniam that he had forgiuenes ad sempiternam quidem salutem as to euerlasting saluation But notwithstanding as God had threatened him flagelli paterni disciplina non est praetermissa The fatherly scourges chastisement was not omitted to the end that both for his confession of his sinne he might be deliuered euerlastingly and by such affliction he might be tried temporally Where also he commendeth him for not murmuring agaynst God as if he had sent him a false pardon of his sinnes Intelligebat enim c. For by his profound wisedome he vnderstood but that God was gratious to him confessing and repenting how worthy his sinnes were of euerlasting paynes for the which sinnes being beaten with temporal corrections he saw that vnto him continued the forgiuenes and Phisicke withall not neglected So expresly he saith that he was beaten for his sinnes for his deserts although withall it was Phisicke for him and prâ—bation Neither in the other place De pec mer. doth
confesse Pur. 426. which decréeth of such Penitents as dye before reconciliation saying Placuit nobis c. 2. Tole c. 12 It pleaseth vs that both the memory of suche may be commended to God in their Churches in the memento of the dead and offerings for their sinnes may be taken by the Priestes Item thré others which you neither would confesse nor could denie to wit the fourth of Carthage whervnto the Toletane doth allude decréeing of the same Penitents 4. Carth. ca. 79. vt memoria eorum orationibus oblationibus commendetur that their memory may be commended both with prayers and with oblations or offerings of their owne and their friends almes and of the Altar 1. Brac. c. 34 35.39 The first Bracarense decréeing of such as kill them selues vt nulla pro illis in oblatione commemoratio fiat neque cum Psalmis ad sepulturam eorum cadauera deducantur That no memorie be made for them in the oblation of the Altar nor their corpses brought with Psalmes to their buriall Simili modo In like maner that vpon Catechumenes dying without the redemptiō of Baptisme through their own fault Dying vnreconciled passing dangerous bicause they were not disposed to leaue as yet their yll liuing for which cause many nowe also in England do deferre reconciliation neque oblationis sanctae commemoratio neque Psallendi impendatur officium should be bestowed neither the memorie of the holy oblation which afore they called commemorationem in oblatione the memorie in the time of the oblation but you could not sée so much neither the office of Psalmes Appoynting moreouer that if any thing by contribution of the faithfull be offered eyther at the Feasts of Martyrs or at the minddayes of the dead the Hebdomadarie haue it not but to auoyde inequalitie and discord it be reserued of one of the Cleargie and once or twise a yere diuided betweene all of the Cleargie Not onely these Councels I say do so clearely make against you but also Vasense and the saide fourth of Carthage which you pretende to haue answered in saying that they are flatly falsified by D. Allen because you thinke that Oblations of the dead and Oblations for the dead are not with them as with D. Allen all one But to sée your wrangling let anye reasonable man conferre the two Canons as well of the fourth of Carthage as also of Vasense which D. Allen doth alleage The one Canon 4. Car. c. 79 95. Vase c. 2.4 béeing the 95. of Carthage and the fourth of Vasense excommunicateth the Executors qui oblationes defunctorum aut negant Ecclesijs aut cum difficultate reddunt Who either denie to the Churches or pay very hardly the Oblations of the dead qui Oblationes defunctorum retinent aut Ecclesijs tradere demorantur Who keepe backe or be slowe in deliuering to the Churches the Oblations of the dead The other Canon béeing the 79 of Carthage and the second of Vasense decréeth of obedient Penitentes dying by chaunce without reconciliation Vt eorum memoria orationibus oblationibus cōmendetur That their memorie be cōmended to God both with prayers and with oblations as also afore was alleaged Horum oblationem recipiendam eorum funera ac deinceps memoriam Ecclesiastico affectu prosequendam c. That their oblation be receiued and on the day of their buriall and afterwards vpon their other minddays the churches affection bestowed vpō them because it is vnreasonable to exclude their cōmemorations out of the healthfull sacrings to whom for their passing preparation to the same mysteries Fortasse nec absolutissimam reconciliationem Sacerdos denegandam putasset The Priest peraduenture would haue thought that neither the most absolute reconciliation should be denied For though to all obedient Penitents at the point of death they gaue both reconciliation and the fruite therof which is the blessed Sacrament of the Altar yet they gaue not to all such full absolution from the residue of their penance in case they recouered as we sée Con. Cart. 4. Can. 76.78 So then these foure Councels are against you besides the two General Councels of Florence and Trent which your Caluinicall spirite contemneth like an Heathen and a Publicane You promise D. Allen saying Pur. 187. Your Prouinciall Councels shal be answered by as good Prouinciall Councels as they are But where be those good Prouinciall Councels of yours I find where you promise agayne afterwarde and say Pur. 277. The Councell Bracharense as afterward I shall more playnly shew doth insinuate that no prayers were made at all for the soules of the departed in their Churche at their burials but onely a remembraunce of them in prayers with thankes giuing and singing of Psalmes For Purgatorie should seeme had not yet trauelled into Spayne But when you come to the place Pur. 426.427 3. Tol. c. 22. you playnely confesse the contrarie to wit a memorie for the dead in that Councell Mary the third Toletan Councell you there produce as for you in that it decréeth Religiosorum omniū corpora cum Psalmis tantūmodo Psallentium vocibus debere ad sepulchra deferri That the Corpses of all Religious at the least if the Bishop can not prohibite it in all Christians be caried to their graues with Psalmes onely without that funebre carmen quod vulgo defunctis cantari solet funerall heathen song which is wont to be song to the dead and with the voyces of the Psalmessingers without that heathen beating themselues or their neighbours or their families on the breastes And to make all sure against any reply you adde If you say this doth not exclude prayers and oblations they adde that it must be thought sufficient that in hope of the Resurrection vpon the Corpses of Christians is bestowed Famulatus diuinorum canticorum the office of the diuine Psalmes For so ought Christian mens bodies throughout the whole world to be buried So then this is your argument In carying the Corpses to their graues they did sing Psalmes Ergo in their Churches they had no prayers nor oblations for the Soules namely in Spayne whereas S. Augustine at the same time saide Aug. de cu. pro mor. ca. 1. 2. Mac. 12. Vniuersae Ecclesiae authoritas in hac consuetudine claret Although no where at all in the olde Scriptures it were read as it is in the bookes of the Machabees that Sacrifice was offered for the dead yet greate is the authoritie of the whole Church which in this custome is cleare where in the prayers of the Priest which are made to our Lorde God at his Altar the commendation also of the dead hath his place But to returne to your reason you might with it proue as well that now also we haue no prayers nor oblations for the dead because we carie the Corpse with Psalmes as also the whole dirige in effect is Psalmes and namely De profundis for the dead because it is a
when the matter was brought before the Pope he tooke such blessed order with it as was very méete for his Apostolike See to wit that the Friars new scandalous booke secreto combureretur should be priuily burned for shaming their order say you And what fault was that I pray you Know you not how S. Augustine vsed Pelagius and his disciples in the beginning of their new doctrine when he first wrote against them Tacenda adhuc arbitratus Aug. Retr li. 2. ca. 33. c. I thought good not to expresse as yet their names hoping that so they might more easily be amended Imo Pelagij ipsius nomen non sine aliqua laude posui quia vita eius a multis praedicabatur Yea in my next writing expressing the name of Pelagius himselfe I did it not without some prayse because his life was commended of many Thus did S. Augustin vse one Monke and him the author of a most pestilent Heresie as he proued afterwards And your Christian spirite would haue all the order all Monkes the innocent also shamed for the fault of a few Such would haue bene your care to amend those few and such your prouidence to saue the wheate whereof these fewe might haue made as gret waste if they had not bine wisely handled as Friar Luther now hath made for lacke of a siluer spurre and a Cardinals hatte and as Erasmus also might haue made had he not bene made of by Catholike Bishops farre aboue his merites Yet one shift more you may séeme to haue where you say for your argument ab authoritate negatiuè of the whole Scriptures authoritie negatiuely Pur. 449. And this conclusion M. Allen him selfe made of mans authoritie cap. 13. Purgatorie and prayers for the dead were not preached against at their first entry Ergo they are true or rather there was no such entrie of them as you imagine but they came lineally and quietly from the Apostles But of all mens authoritie it is false you say Howsoeuer the argument of all mens authoritie negatiuely be good or bad who but you would call this such a one All heresies according to the Scriptures Fathers and Histories haue bene preached against at their first entry This was neuer preached against Ergo this is no heresie nor neuer since the Apostles time did enter ¶ Names In the thrée next Demaundes I haue thrée easie and familiar notes by our bare names to know which side is right Ar. 66. and which is wrong To that generally Fulke saith He is a foolish sophister that reasoneth from names to the things In what Logike he hath that axiome I know not But this I know and you shal heare it * In the 7. Dem. See cap. 11. his 37. cōtr Aug. in Ps cōt partem Donat. Ar. 68. anone that also him selfe so reasoneth I know moreouer that S. Augustine so reasoneth Dicitis mecū vos esse saith the Church to the Donatists sed falsum videtis esse Ego Catholica dicor vos de Donati parte You say that you be with me But you see it is false For I am named Catholica and you Of Donates part S. Augustine I trow he will not call a foolish sophister nor him selfe a foolish sophister Againe he saith generally If the onely name of an honest man of a learned man of a good Christian is enough to proue the thing many a knaue asse hypocrite may proue himself an honest man a learned man a good Christian As though we said the argument to be good frō euery name to the thing No syr we say it no more but of thrée sort of names of which the Fathers said it before vs and experience teacheth it and you can not disproue it by giuing any instance For there are in it further reasons then onely arguing from names to things 6. Catholikes Motiue 1. Article 20. First then we say that sith the Apostles did bid vs beléeue that church which is named The Catholike Church euermore to this day they haue ben true Catholikes in déede which were in times of Heresies and Schismes commonly called Catholikes and easily knowen thereby For this we alleage among others S. Augustine wherof you take notice which may be written it is so rare a thing in this your booke against the Articles and go about to answere him with his owne words but very fondly as I haue shewed cap. 9. pag. 182. The rest that you haue is oppositions after your custome As where you oppose to this name your stale exception which here cap. 7. Ar. 69. you oppose to all things of Onely Scripture saying Wherfore howhoeuer you boast of the honorable name of Catholike except you proue that your opinions agree with the Scripture they are not Catholike in dede by Chrysostomes iudgement Againe By this you may see that Chrysostome thought it not sufficient to haue the name of Catholike Your folly in this allegation I detected cap. 9. pag. 172. neither is it Chrysostomes neither doth he speake of the name Catholike nor of the Apostles writings but of the Apostolike Sees writings Ar. 66. Another opposition You your selues will not account the Grecians now since their separation for true Christians And yet as many nations haue since then called them Catholikes as you are able to shew on your side Though they are not so called by you for no more are you so called by them Be bolde to say ynough how litle soeuer you be able to proue To saye the Grecians be called Catholikes is like as to say the Latines be called Catholikes which were forsooth a proper saying considering that not only we but you also be Latines But this I say that as among the Latine or Westerne Christians he that in common talke or writings heareth Catholikes named vnderstandeth vs therin not you so likewise if he heare the Catholike Gretians or the Catholikes of the East whether he be Latine or Gretian he vnderstandeth them that be with the Pope beléeue the holy-Ghost to procéede of the sonne also not the Schismaticall Heretical Gretians And therfore in this example is nothing to the contrarie but that they be true Catholikes which are knowen by the name of Catholikes And so much you say of the name and rule it selfe Now which of vs two haue that name whether we or you Ar. 66. The Heretike Gretians do not call vs Catholikes you say No more do you that be Heretike Latines But yet both you and they mistake not the person when common talke and bookes so calleth vs. Therfore I say we be true Catholikes On the other side you say Ar. 68. And we haue as many Nations and more then you haue that by publike authoritie call vs Catholikes and you Heretikes Who be so called any where by publike authoritie is not the question but who be commonly called knowen by that name Howbeit also of any such publike authoritie no man knoweth but your selfe But this
that the vniuersall Churches authoritie was alwayes counted so irrefragable that she would be and was beléeued vppon her onely word in all matters before she yéelded or we could conceiue the reasons of her doctrine And that S. Augustine wrote a booke vpon this against the Manichées which he called De vtilitate credendi Of the vtilitie of beléeuing first before you vnderstand Aug. retra li. 1. ca. 14. Because his friend Honoratus béeing a Manichée did irride in the discipline of the Catholike faith quod iuberentur homines credere that men were commaunded to beleue and not taught by certentie of the groundes certissima ratione what was true Which to our Doctor Fulke is so strange that of D. Allen saying he taketh it to be the naturall order of a Christian schole Pur. 4.5 he requireth to shew where he learned that methode affirmeth S. Paule Rom. 10. to teach a cōtrary order and calleth it a blind faith which must be thrust vpon mens consciences to be accepted before they see what ground it hath Whereas S. Paule doth not say that men must vnderstand the groundes of euery matter before they beléeue for that were contrary to his owne doing who did not alwayes to all at the first speake wisedome 1. Cor. 2. but that they must heare first the Churches preaching to know which be the articles before they can beléeue them And that is it which we say that hearing what the Church teacheth they may be bold to beleue it forthwith although they heare not or can not attaine to the groundes euen as they which heard Christ him selfe and his Apostles after him might boldly beléeue them As he also did worke those Myracles in the beginning to commend his own authoritie credite and thereby to draw vnto him a multitude which multitude should alwayes after him moue the worlde to beleeue as Myracles did at the first Au. de vtil cred ca. 13. S. Augustine in that booke deduceth this at large and concludeth Rectè igitur Catholicae disciplinae maiestate institutum est vt accedentibus ad Religionem fides persuadeatur ante omnia It is rightly therefore apoynted by the maiestie of the Catholike Churches Schole that they which come to Religion be first and formost moued or perswaded by certayne generall motiues to beleeue Wherefore I say that the Protestantes can not possibly be the Church because they do renounce the claime of suche authoritie I say also that neyther they nor no other secte in the world is so happy sure of their faith as we be hauing a Schoole and Masters that we may boldly beléeue in all thinges because Christ hath geuen them the Spirite of truth Ioan. 14. and to vs also accordingly sayth D. Allen the spirite of obedience But therunto Fulke answereth as more at large here cap. 7. pag. 90. That also the Protestantes wil be ruled by their Superiours What simply Ar. 58. so farre as their Superiours are ruled by Gods word Any other submission they allowe not O humble submission of yours who will ouerrule your Superiours as it were by Gods word and O worthy authoritie of theirs who by your owne cōfession may swarue from the truth of Gods word But howsoeuer the Protestantes are affected to their Superiours the Greeke Church with the Moschouites and Russianes in doubtes wil be ruled by their Patriarche of Constantinople and so will the rest of the Orientall Churches by their chiefe Patriarches Bishops though they be not of our felowship and Catholike communion So you say But if you knewe the storie of the Florentine Councell wherein their Patriarches agréed with the Catholike Latines in all thinges and yet could not for all that reduce their Countries from Schisme you would not so say Ar. 83.84 And as towching your grammaticatiō vpon the article of our Créed I beleeue the H. Catholike Church I haue shewed plainly cap 8. pag. 138 out of antiquitie that the meaning of it is according to this presēt demaund I beleue in the H. Catholike Church And therefore you erre where you say To beleeue all and euery thing that the Catholike Church by commō consent doth maintayne is no article of our faith And is not this a goodly interpretation which you bring We say confesse against all Heretikes and Schismatikes I beleeue that there is a Catholike Church or that God hath an Vniuersall Congregation For what Heretike and Scismatike may not say the same And what Catholike may not also cōfesse that there is a Lutherane Church The meaning of the Créede is as I haue sayd I beléeue that to be the true Church whose name is Catholike as in the Articles afore going I beléeue that Christ which is named Iesus and that God who is the Creator and I beléeue all which the same Church doth bid me to beléeue as being the mouth of the Holy Ghost and by her being the communion or company of the Holy so that none be Holy which do not cōmunicate with her I beléeue that we haue remission of our sinnes in the Sacramentes and shall haue Resurrection of our bodies in glorie and for euer afterwardes in Soule and Bodye together lyfe euerlasting All which is the worke of our Sanctification and appropriated in the Créede to the Holy Ghost as our redemption to the Sonne and Creation to the Father In calling this a foolish and false interpretation you do but vtter your ignorance in the auncient Doctors They are the boyes that you count worthy to haue many stripes for their construing it otherwise then thus I beleeue that there is a Catholike Church Suppose the Apostles had said Credo S. Romanam Ecclesiam how would you haue construed it not I beleue that there is a Romane church for so much you may confesse being yet a Protestant but I beleeue the Romane Church And what should that meane but as I haue here sayd out of the Fathers As also against all Apocriphalles to say Credo Sanctas Scripturas Canonicas I beleeue the H. Canonicall Scriptures Item against Manicheus Montanus Luther and all other false-named Apostles or Euangelists of Christ to say Credo S S. Duodecim Apostolos Credo S S. quatuor Euangelistas I beleeue the H. Twelue Apostles I beleeue the H. Fower Euangelistes 35 Vnitie Motiue 27. Arti 15.17 Well of this irrefragable authoritie of Gods Church ouer vs and of our humble submission againe and affection vnto it procedeth I say in my next Demaund our inseperable vnitie Aug. cōtra Epi. Fund ca. 4. Ioan. 17. whiche S. Augustine in his Motiues to the Manichies calleth Confentionem Populorum atque Gentium Consenting of Peoples and Nations in one Which Christ in his prayer for it accompteth a most iust motiue for the world to beleeue in him But Fulke notwithstanding because his Protestantes haue it not Ar. 93. nor can not possibly atteyne vnto it telleth vs that also the Mahometistes and Turkes haue their
meant of the Apostles and their successors the ministers of the Church he teacheth them aboue al other men to looke diligently to their life conuersation for as they excell in place dignitie so the eyes of all men are set vpon them As a citie builded vpon an hill must needes be seene of all that come neare it so they beeing placed in so high an office and dignitie shall be noted and marked aboue all other men One part of the Church is alwayes visible to the eyes of all men and can not be hidden and yet the whole Church and so also that part is not alwayes visible but may be hidden and was hidden for a 1000. yeres So he saith 31 b Ar. 35. Pur. 458. The true Church decayed immediatly after the Apostles time And so the error of praying for the dead was continued frō a corrupt state of the Church of Christ vnto a plaine departing away into the Church of Antichrist Contra The Primitiue pure Church for the space of an hundreth yeares after Christ Againe Ar. 16. Pur. 458. An. 607. The Church fled into the wildernes there to remaine a long season where she hath not decayed but bene alwayes preserued vntill God should bring her againe to open light now in our dayes c Pur. 364. The true Church shall neuer decay but alway raigne with Christ The false Synagoge shall dayly more and more decay vntill it be vtterly destroyed with Antichrist the head therof If this be not contradiction it is much worse to wit that Luther and his Apostles haue giuen vs a visible Church which shall not decay Whereas Christ and his Apostles gaue vs a visible Church which did decay yea and plainly departe away into Apostasie 32 At euery word he calleth the Pope Antichrist and the head of the malignant Church Contra in some places he maketh two distincte heades and their distincte companies Ar. 16.95 As when Mahomet in the East and Antichrist the Pope in the west seduced the world then the Church fled into the wildernes Againe The Popish Church is not in euery parte of the world for Mahomets sect is in the greatest parte 33 That the true Church may erre and hath erred notwithstanding any priuilege it hath by Gods Spirite we hard him say cap. 3. Nowe to the contrarie Ar. 82.81.93.99.62.77.100.108.62 Neither hath the Spirite of God failed to leade her into all trueth Ar. 82.81.93.99.62.77.100.108.62 There be some prerogatiues of Gods Spirite that are necessarie for the saluation of Gods elect as the gift of vnderstanding the gift of faith c And these the Spouse of Christ hath neuer wanted Ar. 82.81.93.99.62.77.100.108.62 True Faith c. might be signes of the true Church The Spouse of Christ heareth the voice of Christ and is ruled thereby The Church of God is the piller stay of truth Ar. 82.81.93.99.62.77.100.108.62 so called because that wheresoeuer the Church is either visible or inuisible ther is the truth Ar. 82.81.93.99.62.77.100.108.62 S. Paul by this title doth admonish Pastors and preachers how great a burden and charge they susteine that the truth of the Gospell can not be cōtinued in the world but by their ministery in the Church of God which is the piller and stay of truth This their duety true preachers considering are diligent in their calling to preach the trueth Ar. 82.81.93.99.62.77.100.108.62 As our Church is the piller and stay of trueth so is she also the house of trueth which knoweth nothing but him that is the trueth it selfe Iesus Christ his most holy Scripture in which this trueth is signed and testified Ar. 82.81.93.99.62.77.100.108.62 We require you to beleeue the true Cathòlike Church onely and immediatly againe to the contrarie We require you not to beleue any one companie of men more then another 34 The error of Purgatorie and praying for the dead is continued from a corrupt state of the Church of Christ Pur. 458. vnto a playn departing away into the Church of Antichrist Contra The true and onely Church of God is so guyded by Gods spirite Ar. 88. and directed by his word that she can not induce any damnable error to continue No nor suffereth any man damnably abusing her religion without open reprehension and yet Purgatorie c. came in with silence 35 Ar. 5.4.9 The Church of Christ hath of the holy Ghost a iudgement to discerne true writings from counterfectes and the word of God of infallible veritie from the writing of men which might erre Ar. 5.4.9 She hath commended the bookes of holy Scripture to be beleeued of all true Christians Ar. 5.4.9 We persuade vs of the authoritie of Gods booke because we haue most stedfast assurance of Gods spirite for the authoritie of it with the testimonie of the true Church in all ages Contra Pur. 219. All other writings are in better case then the Scriptures are with you For other writings may be coūted the works of their authors without your censure the holy Scripture may not be counted the word of God except you liste so to allow it Other writings are of credite according to the authoritie of the writers The holy Scriptures with you haue not credite according to the authoritie of God the author of them but according to your determination Ar. 65. Ar. 82. 36 Those that by true Christians haue bene called and counted for Heretikes haue proued so in deede Contra This Demaund hath a false principle that the Church ought to be a Christian mans onely it is not in D. Allens principle staye in all troubles and tempestes Ar. 65. 37 And therefore the Papistes being called and counted Heretikes of true Christians that is of the Protestantes without doubt are Heretikes in deede Contra He is a foolish Sophister Ar. 66. that reasoneth from names to things as you do most vainely and childishly Ar. 86. Pur. 367. 38 There is neuer Heresie but there is as great doubt of the Church as of the matter in question Contra Augustines argument of the publike prayers of the Church tooke no holde of the Pelagians by force of trueth that is in it but by their owne confession and graunt of that prayer to be godly and them to be of the Church that so prayed But now the controuersie is not onely of the substance of doctrine but of the Church it selfe also The Donatistes chalenged the Church to them selues Ar. 60.61 39 But for the chiefe poyntes of Christian Religion and the foundation of our faith that is Real presence c. the most approued writers are vtterly agaynst you and therefore can not be of your Church Contra But the Lutheranes and Zuinglians as it pleaseth you to call them are of one true Church although they differ in one opinion concerning the Sacrament the one affirming a Real presence the other denying it Out
of the same place may be deduced also many other contradictions in that among the same chiefe poyntes and foundation he reckoneth also the honor of God the offices of Christ the fruites of his passion the authoritie of Gods worde Images saying that the Fathers in these also were against vs and therefore not of our Church and yet graunteth that the same Fathers helde with vs euen those very poyntes which in vs he counteth contrarie vnto these and to the foundation to witte Honoring of Relikes Inuocation of Saintes Merites Traditions vnwritten Images of the Crosse as by his owne words appeareth here cap. 3. and 7. And them so earnestly also that they condemned the contraries for Heresies Yet saith Fulke Pur. 412. Whosoeuer is not able to proue by the word of God any opinion that he holdeth obstinately he is an Heretike 40 Ar. 10.61 Pu. 403. We know that Luther did not obstinately and maliciousâ—y erre in any article of faith concerning the substance of Religion Ar. 10.61 Pu. 403. Luther Caluine and Bucer shall come with Christ to iudge the world Ar. 10.61 Pu. 403. As for Illyrians if you call them of Flaccius Illyricus they be Lutherans in opinion of the Sacrament differ onely in Ceremonies which can not diuide them from the faith Contra What Flaccius or any such as he is hath said Pur. 147. neither do I know neither do I regard let them answere for them selues But whereas you charge M. Caluine c. 41 There is neuer Heresie Ar. 86. but there is as great doubt of the Church as of the matter in question Therefore onely the Scripture is the stay of a Christian mans conscience Contra Pur. 367. The Church is the stay of trueth If that argument of the Church without triall which is the Church might take place it woulde serue you both for a sworde and a buckler The Church saith it and we or they of the first 600. yeres for that néedeth no triall you confesse it your selfe are the Church Therfore it is true 42 Among the arguments that Augustine vseth agaynst the Pelagians one though the feeblest of an hundred is Pur. 349.367 that their Heresie was contrarie to the publike prayers of the Church Contra All other persuasions set aside he prouoketh onely to the Scripture to trye the faith and doctrine of the Church namely in beating downe the Schisme of the Donatistes the heresie of the Pelagians Where also he contradicteth him selfe againe in shewing the reason why he argued against the Donatistes of onely Scripture but against the Pelagians of the Churches prayers also The Pelagians graunted them to be of the Church that so prayed And therfore when Augustine had to do with the Donatistes that chalenged the Church vnto them selues he setteth all other trials aside and prouoketh onely to the Scriptures 43 a Pur. 432. We stand for authoritie only to the iudgement of the holy Scriptures Contra b Ar. 9.5 10 The ground that we haue to persuade vs of the authoritie of gods booke is because we haue most stedfast assurance of Gods spirit for the authoritie of that booke with the testimonie of the true Church in all ages b Ar. 9.5 10 The church of Christ hath a iudgement to discerne the word of god from the writings of mem b Ar. 9.5 10 The primitiue Churches testimonie of the word of God we allow beleeue c Pur. 364. â—31 Supra ca. 7. pag. 89. Ar. 21.39.42 You should bring a great preiudice against vs and passing well proued for the credite of your cause and the discredite of ours if you could bring the consent and practise of the primitiue pure Church for the space of 100. yeres after Christ or some thing out of any Authentical writer which liued within one hundred yeres after the Apostles age Pur. 362. 44 S. Paule 1. Cor. 11. declareth without cooler or couerture the onely right order of ministration Contra in the nexte line I know the Papistes will flie to those wordes of the Apostle The rest I will set in order when I come That is manifest to be spoken of matters of externall comelines and therefore say we of the order of ministration Pu. 438. 45 The old Doctors neuer heard Purgatory named nor prayer for the dead Contra About S. Augustines time the name of Purgatorie was first inuented Pur. 356. And long afore that also Montanus had in all pointes the opinion of the Papistes c. Here cap. 3. pag. 23. And yet againe Before Chrysostomes time it was but a blind error without a head Pur. 54. Pur. 161. 46 In S. Augustines time Sathan was but then laying his foundation of Purgatorie Contra That error of Purgatorie was somewhat rifely budded vp in his time And specially here cap. 3. pag. 14. saying And this I thinke is the right pedigree of prayers for the dead and Purgatorie where he putteth the very last generation of it to haue bene in S. Augustines time and the foundation long afore Christes time Pur. 242.243 47 M. Allen affirmeth that after mens departure the representation of almes by such as receiued it shall moue God excedingly to mercy O vaine imagination for which he hath neither Scripture nor Doctor Pur. 236. â—37 Contra Chrysostome alloweth rather almes that men geue before their death or bequeath in their Testament because it is a worke of their owne then that almes which other men geue for them howbeit also such almes are auayleable for the dead he saith 48 Here cap. 5. pag. 31. Fulke saith that The auncient Doctors did hold the â—oundation Contra cap. 4. pag. 28. He saith The thyrd Councell of Carthage did define that it is vnlawfull to pray to God the Sonne and God the holy Ghost 49 Here cap 8. pag. 127. he sayth that the iust of the old Testament went not to Limbus Patrum after their death but to heauen immediately Contra Pur. 183. The fierie and shaking sword that was set to exclude man from Paradise was taken away by the death of Christ when he opened Paradise yea the Kingdome of Heauen whereof Paradise was but a Sacrament vnto all beleeuers so that the Penitent theefe had passage into Paradise 50 Who so denyeth the authoritie of the holy Scriptures Pur. 214. therby bewraieth him selfe to be an Heretike Contra I say not this here cap. 9. pag. 170. Pur. 218. Ar. 10. that Eusebius was not accompted an Heretike to excuse them that doubt of the Epistle of S. Iames. As Martin Luther and Illyricus for I am persuaded that they are more curious then wise in so doing Loe here are 50. Contradictions and diuers of them more then single ones Yet doe I find in him many others besides these which I omit for breuities sake and because these may suffice to shew what a writer he is and what a Religion it is that agréeth no better he
damned * Fulke vvil auouch this out of Heb. v. in his Reply for euer also This is the doctrine of that beast as D. Allen doth most worthily call him for it against our Sauiours corporall death which was his onely death and that in many of his impious bookes and namely in that Catechisme which they haue ioyned with their French Bibles in the end belike that it may among fooles créepe in time into Canonicall authoritie as alreadie Luther with the Lutherans and Caluine with the Caluinistes is péere to the Apostles them selues And for touching of this doctrine it is that Fulke more zealous for Caluine then for Christ goulpeth vp such geare against D. Allen as the Reader may sée in the place falsifying also D. Allens wordes because otherwise he had no marke to shoote at as though he had said Caluine to affirme that Christ went downe into hell after his death Whereas D. Allen saith nothing of the time when he descended by Caluin but onely of the hellike torments which Caluine buildeth vpon his descending Howbeit I would aske Fulke why it is such a mysterie that Christes soule was in damnation for the time vpon the Crosse and not also and rather after his death for the time vntill his resurrection specially considering that in the Créede Crucifixus goeth before Sepultus and Descendit ad inferos followeth Sepultus as also commonly in the Scriptures the time of his Soule in hell is made concurrant with the time of his body in the graue And who séeth not thereby that the Catholikes interpretation is also most naturall and proper that after Mortuus which signifieth the separation of his body and soule by death followeth Sepultus to shewe where his body was afterwardes Descendit ad inferos to tell where his Soule was afterwardes though not in damnation according to these mens new blasphemie vntill both were conioyned againe in his Resurrection as there it followeth immediately Tertia die resurrexit a mortuis Thus I am faine to stand long vpon euery point be it neuer so absurd and impious against our Lord God him selfe and against our onely Redēption in his bloud For they can wrest the Scriptures to such poyntes also We should I thinke afore now if this poynt of Christes damnation for our Redemption had not bene by diuers Catholikes so handled to their shame haue had that other poynt likewise of some Caluinistes made more common that Christ also did despeire in God or blaspheme God or commit some other sinne against God for our Redemption Synod Gē 5. Ses 4. Ses 8. ca. 12. For I sée not but they are already come to say with that old most detestable blasphemous Heretike Theodorus Mopsuestenus master to Nestorius that he had in him fomitem peccati inclination to sinne and that he was not from his conception impeccabilis that is vnsinable considering they say he feared to be damned for euer vnlesse they will say that he was so ignorant to feare a thing that was vnpossible to befall vnto him Which yet them selues can not feare because of their Speciall faith forsooth Pur. 290.296.298 O Lord these blasphemous helhoundes are more worthy to be beaten downe with thunderboltes and so forth as Fulke knoweth how to amplifie but that afore he lacked matter It is no maruell now after this to sée this man so cold for the honor or rather so impiously set against the honor of Christes Mother As first to quit the Heluidians and Antidicomarianitae August ad Quodvult Haer. 84. Epip Haer. 78. Pur. 453. who were by the Primitiue Church condemned as Heretikes for denying her perpetuall virginitie But he notwithstanding saith As for the perpetuall virginitie of the Mother of Christ as we can thinke it is true so bicause the Scripture hath not reuealed it neither perteineth it vnto vs we make no question of it No it perteineth not vnto you to accurse old Heretikes but to ioyne with old Heretikes that perteineth vnto you and also to forge new principles as that same of Only Scripture in their fauour yea and also to contradict your selfe for the matter For but foure lines afore you say All trueth may be proued by Scripture And now of this We can thinke it is true and yet the Scripture hath not reuealed it You might with more honestie haue said that it may be proued by Scripture namely where she saith Quoniam virum non cognosco Because I know not man that is Luc. 1. Au. de san virg ca. 4. because I haue made a vow of virginitie how therfore cā I haue a child But this place you could not aleage you wot for another cause neither do I say that it proueth inuincibly her perpetuall virginitie although it so proue her vow For I know that besides her vow it should be proued that she neuer sinned against her vow nor had a dispensation of God for it Secondly you controll D. Allen Pur. 86.87 where saying that the iustest person sinneth he excepteth Christ and for his honor his mother You thinke it must then be said that he was not sauiour of his Mother and she had no neede of his saluation If you had bene a reader of S. Augustine as you be of Caluine you might haue easily remembred that he saith the very same that D. Allen doth A piece of Pelagius his heresie being that a man may liue without all sinne Au. de nat gra c. 36. he alleaged for it the example of so many iust persons commended in the Scriptures and among the rest our Lord and Sauiours Mother saying that to confesse her without sinne necesse est pietati It is necessarie for him that will not be impious Howe you woulde haue answered him we sée specially thinking you haue Scripture for her sinning because Christ said vnto her Why did you seeke me Luc. 2. Ioan. 2. c. and What to me and thee O woman c. you thinke that Christ here reproueth her and that he had done her wrong herein if she did not sinne You might do well to tell vs what were those sinnes of hers S. Augustine could not sée any there nor els where but saith playnly in his answere to Pelagius although the contrarie had bene for his vantage against him Excepting the holy Virgin Mary of whom for the honor of our Lorde I will haue no question in the worlde when we talke of sinnes Inde enim scimus for by this we know that more grace was giuen to her to ouercome sinne altogether because she was worthy to conceiue and bring forth him whom it is certayne to haue had no sinne The honor of our Lorde is by Fulke his dishonor Where also you sée that her not sinning doth not argue as after your Diuinitie that she had no nede of Christes grace Con. Tri. Ses 6. can 23. but the cleane contrarie that she had so much the more of his grace then any other
neyther hath priuilege nor authoritie and yet out it commeth by permission at the least to make forsooth a face and showe of somewhat for a time and if after it chaunce to be of some Catholike dasht out of countenaunce then the shame to be no mans but onely Fulkes All which considered I doubted a while whether it were good to returne him an answer or no least peraduenture I should but lease my labour rather to expect yet somewhat longer whether any do answer my Motiues or Demaunds as by aduise out of England I haue nowe more then this tweluemonth wayted therevpon Yet my resolution hath bene séeing that abundans cautio non nocet to put out my hande a litle and take of his vizard that being playnly discouered euery man may beholde and abhorre his foule fauour and beare me witnesse that he had bene better to kéepe in not onely those nine yeres and two yeres but also for euer following rather the ensamples of those other two brethren mentioned in his preface to the Reader of whom the one purposed to haue answered the booke of Purgatory himself but afterward vndertooke rather the printing of Fulkes answere the other learnedly began the answering of it but was he knoweth not how letted from the accomplishing of the same So hath Satan hitherto hindred the setting abrode of this answere sayth he of his owne but God hath now at length brought it forth I doubt not he addeth but to his glory and the confusion of satan in his members the Papistes As I also doubt not but God in déede hath brought it forth to his glory and to the confusion of heresie so that satan had done more politikely to haue hindred still if he could the setting abrode of it such stuffe it conteineth Better stuffe we should haue had if better had they had Well séeing that M.D. Allen is otherwise and better occupied I who haue already succéeded him in his Articles and do owe vnto him at one worde all duetie both for the publike and namely for my priuate will here with the helpe of God laye so much of Fulks wares open out of both his bookes that although my meaning is directly against his first booke yet my treatise shall appeare to be a iust reply to both his bookes First therefore I will shew briefly how he confesseth that out of the true Church is no saluation See the contentes more at large in the ende of this booke to this ende that when as in my processe it shall be manifest that he and his felowes are out of the true Church and that we haue the true Church both they may clearely sée in what case they stand and their felowes may looke in time vnto their reconciliation Secondly I will shewe somewhat more at large for what space he graunteth the true Church to haue continued in sight and knowledge of the world and what persons and companies to haue bene of it to the ende that neither he nor no man else being able to proue that we agrée not with those times and persons in substance of religion or haue gone out of the vnitie of their communion it may euidently be séene that we likewise at this time be of the same true Church and he with his fellowes to be without the true Church because they be out of our Church Thirdly for as much as on the other side he could not denie but that he and his agrée not with the saide true Church I will shew how he is fayne to holde that the true Church may erre and that he chargeth it then with the same errours with the which he chargeth vs now to the end that thou mayst sée that for all those surmised errours he hath not any iust cause to denie vs the true Church which he giueth to them that with vs were in the same errours Nay I will further declare in the fourth place that he chargeth them with diuers errors wherewith he neither can nor doth charge vs that it may much more appeare that we haue the true Church nowe if they so much worse then we had the true Church then Fiftly I wil report the reason for which by his saying they had the true Church then notwithstanding their errors to the end that where thou shalt sée it to be such a reason as agréeth to vs nowe as well thou mayst perceyue that he must no lesse graunt vs the true Church now After this I will note briefly his zeal towards Caluin and others that in déede are or at least be vnfaignedly thought of him to be of his Church at this time how that he can not in any wise beare any thing to be spoken agaynst them whereas yet he not onely can beare but also him selfe speaketh so much agaynst the olde auncient Church and the members thereof And in consideration hereof my Catholike zeale must do no lesse as béeing in déede with all other Catholikes of this time a member of the very same auncient Church in olde time but answere for the said Church shewing in euery particuler how vnworthily and vniustly he chargeth it with erring Which I will in like maner do for the Church also of later times defending it likewise against all his like accusations of it Seuenthly I will declare howe that séeing manifestly the true Church Councels Fathers and all other euidences of Christian Religion to make cléerely against him and his he is faine and nothing abasht at the matter to take exception against all by the bare name and colour of Onely Scripture and therein behaueth him selfe so boldly as if the holy Scripture were as manifestly with him as all the other are manifestly against him Where also because like an other Phormio homo confidens he prouoketh vs to a disputation of Scripture I will make him a reasonable offer Eightly I will most cléerely shew how that not withstanding all these great crakes and bolde facinges of his he hath not for all that in these two bookes alleaged so much as one text of Scripture that maketh any whit against vs. And to that purpose I will aunswer all his allegations first concerning Onely Scripture to be credited next concerning the Church whether it can erre and whether we haue it or they then concerning Purgatory and last of all concerning all other matters that any where he mentioneth by the way Ninthly I will likewise shew whereas he maketh himselfe so sure of Scripture that he holdeth the testimonies of Councels and Fathers to be no confirmation of trueth and alleageth them sometimes notwithstanding although because of his so holding I might neglect those allegations yet I will shewe I say that of all which he alleageth no one neither expoundeth any Scripture nor beareth any other testimonie with him against vs. Which wil be a plaine demonstration of that which I proposed here aboue in the second Chapter to wit that wée haue still the true Church because we still so throughly and entirely agrée
we are not contrarie to our selues in the same For in what words the Doctors speake therof the same do we iij I ioyne with him neuerthelesse particularly For these causes this Chapter might well perhaps be spared Neuerthelesse for more euident clearing of all I thinke better to examine euery particular of his allegatioÌ„s reseruing only a few to their more proper places in the next Chapter IdeÌ„ in my 33. Dem. Well then I offer as he sayth the Papistes do to stand to the Doctors iudgement in all things that are in question betwene vs and the Protestantes part 2. Howbeit as I said in the 6. Chapter it is not euery one Doctor but onely the vniforme consent of the Doctors to the which we ascribe infallibility to one or two or a few we ascribe no more but probabilitie and that also no longer then the matter is vndefined of the Church But yet I say that the Protestantes haue not agaynst vs for any one article at all not onely the Doctors consent and there I say standeth the poynt but neither so much as any one Doctor at all and therefore they are destitute euen of that probability also which some old Heretikes could pretend as the Donatistes in the matter of S. Cyprians error Let vs therefore heare what Doctors Fulke alleageth and for what matters And first whether they interprete any Scriptures against vs because the last Chapter was of Fulkes Scriptures The second part Of his Doctors particularly First whether they expound any Scripture against vs. I find that he alleageth the Interpretors about thrée matters which are these Antichrist Onely faith and Purgatory j About Antichrist and Babylon Pur. 249. As touching Antichrist he saith The Seate of Antichrist was appoynted to be set vp in the Latin Church according to the Reuelation of S. Iohn the exposition of Ireneus who iudged that Lateinos was the number of the Beastes name spoken of Apo. 13. Sée I pray you what ragged wares are these First these two conclusions how well they follow Antichriâ—â— was appoynted to be set vp in the Latin Church Ergo the Pope of Rome is Antichrist Whereas it foloweth as well that Luther or Caluine is Antichrist for they are in the Latin Church in the same sense as you count the Pope to sit in the Latin Church that is where the Latin Church was afore but now is not The other conclusion Ireneus iudged that Lateinos should be the name of Antichrist as Iesus was and is the name of Christ Ergo he iudged that Antichrist was appoynted to be set vp in the Latine Churche These are his necessarie conclusions Besides that it is false that he saith Ireneus iudged Lateinos to be the name He saith Iren. lib. 5. Valde verisimile est It is very likely But yet of all names that we find Teitan sayth he magis fide dignum est is most credible Nos tamen non periclitabimur in eo nec asseuerantes pronuntiabimus But yet neither that name will I venture to affirme and pronounce that he shall haue it knowing that if his name should be manifestly preached in this time to wit afore his comming no doubt it had bene vttered by him who also saw the Apocalypse In so much that he there inueigheth agaynst such as Definierint Will define the name that they inuent to be the name of him that is to come Considering also that there is no small daunger therein For if they pardie thinke one name and he come with another name they shall be easily seduced of him quasi necdum adsit ille quem caueri conuenit As though he that they should beware of is not yet come In which respect you my Masters of this new Religion haue deserued a special reward of Antichrist as I noted also afore in the last Chapter for casting this straunge miste vpon Christes Vicar in the eyes of the blinde Par. 2. diu 2 that Antichrist when he commeth may walke more boldly To that purpose you alleage S. Hierome also and say Pur. 373. He was not such a slaue to the Church of Rome thatâ—whatsoeuer pleased the Bishoppes of that Sea he was ready to accept For then he would not haue ben so bold to cal Rome the purple whore of Babylon Praef. ad Paulin. in lib. Didym As though when he calleth Rome so or (a) Pu. 409 Aug. de Ci. dei li. 16. ca. 17. li. 18. ca. 22.27 when S. Augustine calleth it the Westerne Babylon they meane the (b) Ar. 10. Church of Rome No syr S. Augustine meaneth no more but the Empire which was to be there set vp speaking of the beginning of Rome and S. Hierom meaneth the Gentility or Paganisme of Rome which was there as yet in his time against the Church of Rome as it was muche more when S. Peter also called Rome Babylon for the same Paganes and yet saide of that Church for all that 1. Pet. 5. Ecclesia electa quae est in Babylone The elect Church which is in Babylon In which maner S. Hierome him selfe distinguisheth in another place Hiero. ad Marcel ep 16. tom 1. hauing called Rome Babylon there also and saith Est quidem ibi Sancta Ecclesia I graunt there is the holy Church there are the Triumphes of the Apostles and Martyrs there is the true confession of Christ Rom. 1. there is the faith commended of S. Paule Gentilitate calcata in sublime se quotidie erigens vocabulum Christianum And treading gentilitie vnder foote the name of Christians dayly erecting it selfe a loft So that within two ages after S. Hieromes time there were no Gentiles leaft in Rome but all conuerted into Christians and so Babylon fully and throughly become Hierusalem And you know I thinke if you reade his preface that you alleage that he there doth say that what time he was in Babylon Damasus was the Bishop Remember then what he writeth to the same Damasus by occasion of certaine suspected felowes in the East Hier. tom 2 ep ad Dam. which would néedes haue him to confesse three Hypostases not content with three persons and to communicate with them I folowing none first but Christ wheras the Arrians followed Arrius c. am ioyned in Communion to thy beatitude that is to saye by reason of Damasus his lawfull succeding to the Chaire of Peter Mat. 16. Exod. 12. Gen. 7. Vpon that Rocke I know the Church to be builded Whosoeuer eateth the Lambe without this house he is a prophane man If any man be not in Noes Arke he shall perish when the Deluge ouerfloweth desyring him in the end most instantly and saying That by your letters authoritie may be geuen me whether it be to refuse or to vse this worde Hypostases and withall to signifie with whom I shall coÌ„municate at Antioch because of the Schisme which was there at that time betwéene Paulinus and others By this you sée that in doubt both
the Doâ—stes is Vbi sit ecclesia where the Church is whether with vs or with them What shall we do then shall we seeke her in verbis nostris in our owne wordes or in the wordes of her head our Lorde Iesus Christ I thinke we ought rather to seeke her in his wordes who is trueth and beste knoweth his owne body Where by our owne wordes you vnderstande all besides Onely Scripture But S. Augustine doth not so quicquid nobis inuicem obricimus verba nostra sunt Our wordes are whatsoeuer we obiect one to another of deliuering the diuine bookes in Dioclesians time of burning frankinsence to the Idols of persecuting As all your declayming also at this time against vs is for certayne crimes of certayne men We hauing the like yea and them more haynous and that more truely to charge you withall But these words S. Augustine will and we with him to be silent when the Church is sought and the words of Christ in the Scripture to sound Againe you alleage him Epist 48. ad Vincentium RogatistaÌ„ where he â—aith We are sure that no man could iustly separat him selfe as Luther did a communione omnium gentium from the communion of all nations because none of vs seeketh the Churche in his owne righteousnesse but in the holy Scriptures Wherevnto you adde your fiue â—gges saying So if the Papistes would not presume of their owne righteousnesse but seeke â—he Churche of Christe in the Scriptures they would not sepaâ—ate them selues from the communion of Christes Church now â—y Gods grace inlarged further then the Popish Church There 〈◊〉 no crooked gambrell bow that casteth so wide as you do the â—octors wordes these specially from their scope I maruell â—uche at you for it and muche more if you sawe the place By 〈◊〉 Communion of all Nations so often agaynst the Donaâ—es Saint Augustine meaneth the Societie of that visible â—urch which as it beganne visibly at Hierusalem so visibly grewe on afterwardes and groweth on to this day and to the worldes ende ouer all nations From whiche Societie or Companie Epist 48. fieri non potest it is impossible saith he that any can haue iuste cause to separate their companie Because the Donatistes saide that Cecilianus the Catholike Bishop of Carthage had yéelded in Dioclesians persecution and that all the other Catholikes by communicating with him after that whereas they should haue excommunicated him for euer were also defiled thereby and therefore that them selues who had not yéelded did well to separate them selues from the Catholikes as the iust from the vniust Therevpon Saint Augustine saith notably Iust separation impossible If any may haue a iust cause to separate their companie from the companie of all Nations and to call that Ecclesiam Christi the Church of Christ Vnde scitis How know you in all Christendome beeing so wide and side lest perhaps before you did separate your selues some did afore separate them selues for some iust cause in some so farre countreys that the bruite of their iustice is not come to you How can the Church béeing but one be in you rather then in them who before perhaps haue separated them selues Ita fit c. So it remayneth that seeing you know not this same you be vncertayne of your selues Which likewise must needes happen to all others who vse for their Societie the testimonie not of God but of them selues that is of their owne iustice And then a litle after Nos autem ideo certi sumus But we Catholikes are certayne that none can haue iustly separated himself from the companie of all Nations quia non quisque nostram in iustitia sua because any of vs doth not in his owne iustice but in the diuine Scriptures seeke for the Church Et vt promissa est reddi conspicit and seeth it to be represented euen as it was promised to wit from Hierusalem to Rome from the Iewes ouer all nations being mixt both of good and bad and the good not consenting no whit defiled by the companie of the bad And therefore whether any of our Popes any of our other Bishops any of our other fathers any of our Catholike brethren haue bene so yll as the Protestants make them or no sure we are that Luther possibly could not as neither euer any could or can iustly separate him selfe because by the holy most euident Scriptures that only is the true church which beginning at IerusaleÌ„ groweth ouer all Nations in which by the same Scriptures we sée that once the Romanes were and from which the said Romanes did neuer separate theÌ„ selues afterward and with which Romanes Luther first was and afterwardes did Separate himselfe from them and so therfore from the true Church And yet come you like a blinde beetle and say that the Papistes did Separate them selues from your Church bragging as blindely of your inlarging For once hauing made a separation it is no inlarging afterwardes that can winne you the true Church from them that had it afore Of whose largenes yet also aboue your largenes read my 9.31.32.33.47 Demaundes and ioyne with me if you list vpon them Your third parte out of Augustine is more generall to wit about all questions with any Heretikes whatsoeuer thereof you say Ar. 13. that he would haue heresies confuted only by Scriptures For writing against Maximinus the Arian li. 3. ca. 14. a place commonly and often cited he saith Sed nunc nec ego Nicenum c. Of which place your gathering is this If Augustine would not oppresse the Arians by the authoritie of the Nicene Councell which was the first and the best generall Councell that euer was but only by the Scriptures how much lesse would he charge them with other authorities that the Papistes alleage beside the authoritie of holy Scriptures It is for your owne vantage or els you would not so play the proctor for Heretikes S. Augustine would not oppresse the Arians nor would not charge them but onely with Scripture you say But doth he say that he might not for there is the question You know I doubt not how commonly he presseth the Donatistes with the authoritie of the sayd Nicen Councell Aug. con Ep. parm li. 2. ca. 8. De bap coÌ„ Don. l. 1. c. 7 graunting that in S. Cyprians time it was a doubtfull thing whether Heretikes can baptize But nullo iam quaestio est now it is out of all doubt because in that same Councell it had bene discussed considered ended and ratified And euen so in your owne place a litle before hauing proued inuincibly by the Scriptures that the Father the Sonne are vnius eiusdemue substaÌ„tiae of one and the same substance he sayth immediatly This is that Homousion which against the Arrian heretikes was in the Nicene Councell ratified of the Catholike fathers veritatis authoritate authoritatis veritate not onely by authoritie of truth as your selfe do graunt but also by truth of authoritie