Religious personnes and others of the Clergie detected What if I saie al these and many other suche thinges were graunted of whiche we are persuaded that some are true the more parte is false muche is so written as it maie be defended no lesse then impugned What great inconuenience what preiudice to our Faith can ensue of al this Must the Catholike and ancient Doctrine of the Churche for these pointes be founde vntrue Must this now needes be made a good Argument Some of their liues were sinneful Ergo their Doctrine was false Truely these be the matters with the enlarging whereof his Defence hath risen to so huge a quantitie About whiche I haue not thought it needeful to bestow muche labour partly bicause in most of those pointes my Confutation of the Apologie yet standeth vnrefelled partly also bicause it liked me not to emploie good houres in so friuolous and vnfruitful a trauaile but chiefly bicause what so euer be said by M. Iewel touching these thinges either on the one side or on the other it importeth no disprouse of the Catholique doctrine in any Article whiche specially I haue taken in hande to mainteine Howbeit the thinges he bringeth in to deface the Churche must needes with wise menne in this case beare smal credite being considered vpon whose authorities and reportes they be auouched The Catholikes can not be greatly moued with suche thinges as are written in preiudice of the Churche either by them whose Bookes be of suspected faith and therefore condemned by the Church as Auentinus and Beno de vita Hildebrandi or haue ben corrupted of late yeres by the Lutheranes of Germanie as Vrspergensis In Indice librorum prohibitorum Antonius de Rosellis Polydorus Vergilius de Inuentoribus rerum Paschasius and others or who haue benne muche inclined to innouations in Religion and fauoured the Procedinges of Luther and his disciples as Erasmus Cornelius Agrippa Carion Lorichius Cassander and suche others or who be knowen to be manifest Heretiques and professed enemies of the Churche as Gaspar Hedio the Author of Paralipomena added to Vrspergensis Anselmus Rid Vergerius Sleidan Illyricus Fabritius Montanus Iacobus Andreae and many suche others al whiche M. Iewel allegeth against the Churche the Popes and the Clergie boldely as if they were Doctours of sufficient authoritie and sound credite against whom specially in these matters no exception might be taken As there is no cause why we shoulde greatly esteeme any thing spoken by these either against the manners of the Clergie or against the Ceremonies and customes of the Churche or against any parte of the Catholique Doctrine bicause in iudgement the bare worde of the Accuser or of him that otherwise is an il willer beareth smal credite against any man So touching the doctrine of Faith we feare not what so euer M. Iewel allegeth against vs out of the Schoolemenne Canonistes of al sortes Summistes and Glosers out of the Cardinalles and those other learned and graue menne appointed by Paulus Tertius to geue information of thinges in the state of the Churche to be refourmed and out of the Bisshoppes speaking their mindes freely in the late Councel of Trent For we are wel assured how so euer M. Iewel telleth their tales for them they helde and mainteined the doctrine which we professe in euery condition What so euer therefore he bringeth out of them bearing any sound of wordes against the Catholike Faith as very litle it is that to that effecte he can bring though with heapes of their sayinges he hath filled his great Volume the same is either by heate of Disputation or by waie of Obiection against the Truthe after the Scholastical manner for the better opening of the Truthe or by vehemencie of zele or perhappes by humaine ouersight vttered otherwise then by them is determined in their Conclusions whereof the taking of aduantage is vndue and ouer captious or by some sleight of M. Iewel falsified and corrupted or to saie the least by vntrue cōstruction wrested to a sense by the Authour neuer intended How so euer it be they shew them selues either very blinde of iudgement or very contentious wranglers or very vaine Ianglers that allege the wordes of any Writer against the Catholique doctrine whose whole course of life shewed him to be Catholique Which is tolde vs by S. Augustine as a moste certaine rule whereby to vnderstand mennes wordes in matter of Religion And therefore thus he crieth out vpon the blindenesse of such men among whom M. Iewel maie take him selfe annumbred that wil not vnderstād mens wordes by their dedes Aug. contra Epist Parme. li. 3. cap. 4. Incredibilis est coecitas hominum omnino nescio quemadmodum credi posset esse in hominibus tāta peruersitas nisi experimento verborum suorū factorūque patesceret vsqueadeo se clausos habere cordis oculos vt cōmemorent sancta Scripturae testimonia nec intueantur in factis Prophetarū quemadmodum intelligenda sint verba Prophetarū The blindnesse of men is inoredible and certainely I wote not how I might make one beleeue that there were such frowardnesse in men onlesse by the proufe of their wordes and deedes it appeared openly that the eyes of their harte were so faste shut vp that they allege the testimonies of the holy Scripture and doo not behold in the doinges of the Prophetes how the wordes of the Prophetes are to be vnderstanded Wherefore seing the farre greater parte of M. Iewels Defence consisteth of their sayinges heaped together of whom some were either them selues or their workes being vntruly set forth after their death of suspect faith some found to fauour heretikes some professed heretikes some contrariwise knowen by publike profession of their life to be perfite Catholikes making litle accompt what they of the one side saie as being of no credite specially in matter of Faith and not doubting but these of the other side meant wel and godly how so euer their wordes by M. Iewel be abused corrupted and misconstrued in consideratiō thereof good Reader I iudged a short Treatie might suffice in this case shorte I meane in comparison of that Huge Volume fraught with so much voide impertinent and superfluous stuffe Otherwise it is longer I am wel assured then he shal euer be hable aptly truly and directly to confute I saie not but he maie do eftsones as he hath twise already donne that is to saie gather together a huge number of sayinges out of al sortes of Writers and printing this Treatie withal sende vs forth an other great booke conteining much stuffe to litle purpose and not once touching the very precise pointes wherein he is charged with foule errours and falshed But to come directly to the pointes by me thoroughly refelled and with good proufes to iustifie the same keeping him selfe in from idle ranging abroad in matters not denied or otherwise impertinent this is that I affirme he shal neuer be hable to perfourme though he write againe as muche as
greeue the harte not onely of his Aduersarie but also of any other godly man with scorneful flowtes in thinges of greatest holinesse But Christian Reader we striue not for the Garland of that game we go not about to trie maisteries of suche witte or of humaine learning Our strife is about the Truthe The waie to shewe it and proue it whiche he him selfe by open Chalenge hath offred his Doctrine to be tried by is by laying forth the plaine Scriptures the examples of the Primitiue Church the testimonies of the General Councelles and ancient Fathers Of these who hath so great stoare saith a frende of his as M. Iewel Who euer sawe the margent of any Booke so beset with cotations as his Bookes are This were a great euidence of the Truthe on his side if the matter were alwaies tried by what so euer multitude of writers sayinges But what if the number of his testimonies be quite beside the purpose Seemeth he not then very shamelesse Is he not then farre to blame so to abuse the plaine and wel meaning Readers It shal be said perhappes in his excuse He seeth the negligence of menne he coÌ„sidered that fewe or none examine our writinges And therefore he thinketh he shal seeme to saie muche though in deede nothing be said that perteineth to the pointes presently handled And where a thing is to be done and the same for want of habilitie can not be done there it seemeth good policie to geue the assaie and to make shewe as if it could be donne or were donne It is knowen how flatterers make resemblance of frendship how Hypocrites geue forthe tokens of holinesse the intended Bankroute of good truste and credite the craking Coward of stoute courage Beggers oftentimes of welth Queanes of womanly honestie and chast demeanour Right so M. Iewel feeling him selfe destitute of the Truthe and impugning the Truthe and professing to deliuer vnto the worlde a new Truthe that is to saie a heape of olde Vntruthes busily set forth of late yeres by Luther Zuinglius Caluine Beza and the reste and by Wiklefe Hus Waldenses and others their predecessours in former times laboureth with al his witte and cunning to iustifie it calling it by the name of Goddes pure worde the Gospel and the sincere Truthe that whereas he is not hable to perfourme his intent in deed yet he might seeme to make it good with wordes Touching the life of the Clergie wel maie I confesse that M. Iewel hath somewhat to saie out of certaine writers how true I knowe not whereto I shal hardly be hable to make answer in ful defence of certaine personnes But as touching the Doctrine that the Catholike Churche holdeth at this daie and hath alwaies holden I auouche boldly as by sundrie our bookes it hath now ben clearely proued and they vnderstand so much that doo thoroughly examine the reasons authorities and proufes of both partes that he is not hable to bring so muche as one sentence out of any allowed writer that may not easily be refelled And bicause he knoweth that in pointes of Doctrine the force of Truth is clearely on our side he would faine traine me from matters of Doctrine wherein he hath smal hope of victorie or of acquitting him selfe with euen hande vnto matters of life and other bye thinges whereof what so euer be beleeued therein is no great danger touching our Saluation As for example what cracke is there made in the Doctrine of the Catholique Churche if the Nominales and the Reales if the Thomistes and Scotistes dissent about pointes Logical or Metaphysical or perhappes also about the paringes of some Scholastical pointes of Diuinitie What if some light beleeuing writers haue sadly and in ernest made mention of one Ioane a woman Pope deceiued by Martinus Polonus Martinus Polonus a man of smal credite who moued with olde wiues tales first committed that fable to writing What if some later writers haue vttered their phantasies whiche they dreamed thereof vpon occasion of an olde Marble Stone hauing in it a woman with a ladde standing by her engraued What if a fewe menne that helde with certaine euil Emperours whiche could not abide to be reuoked from their vnlawful lustes by the Pope for the time being haue written and reported il of a fewe Popes What if Iohannes Casa wrote some vnchaste Italian Sonettes and Rymes in his yewth though for filthinesse not comparable to suche as be extant of Bezaes making the Apostle of the Frenche Huguenotes What if Petrus Aloisius whom Paulus Tertius the Pope loued so tenderly were a vicious man What if Iohn Diazius the Spaniard were vnnaturally murdered by Alphonsus Diazius his brother that liued at Rome What if Luther wrote against the furious vproares of the Boures in Germanie when he sawe they were sure to be ouerthrowen by the Nobilitie there whom notwithstanding he had before by Thomas Muncer his scholer stirred to take weapons against their Lordes that he might laie some good colour vpon that he had il begonne What if some haue written though not without contradiction of others that Poison was ministred in the blessed Sacrament What if a Pope shewed him selfe cruel and without pitie in suffering Frances Dandulus the Venetians Ambassadour to lie vnder his table like a dogge whiles he was at diner What if Popes haue suffered great Princes and Monarkes to kisse their feete to holde their Stiroppes to leade their horses by the Bridle Wâ—at if Gregorie the seuenth otherwise called Hildebrande whom many graue Writers reporte to haue benne a man of great vertue and an excellent good gouernour of the Church be of some Writers of that age who flattered the Emperour then being that Popes mortal enemie accompted an il man What if Pope Alexander vsed Frederike the Emperour more proudly then became a man of his calling What if Constantines Donation can not be most sufficiently proued by record of antiquitie What if certaine Emperours and other Princes for great causes haue ben remoued froÌ„ their estates by the Popes authoritie What if the Gloser vpon Gratian and certaine other Canonistes haue immoderately magnified the Pope and to extol his power haue vsed some termes vndiscretely which neuerthelesse by fauorable interpretation maie be iustified What if the Popes at certaine times either for negligence cared not or for the wrechednesse of mannes il inclination could not or for great considerations would not vtterly purge the Citie of Rome of Courtesanes and Brodel houses What if the life of many Priestes Bishoppes Cardinals yea of some Popes also hath iustly deserued to be reproued Once to conclude what if al sortes of olde Bookes being raked out of dusty corners Schoolemen Summistes Glosers vaine Chroniclers Legendes writers of Dreames and Visions and suche Riffe raffe and menne for the purpose being set a worke to peruse them in the same be founde a fewe fonde pointes of Doctrine certaine loose Conclusions many seely Tales not worth the telling and some lewd faultes of
Defenders require vs to follow the example of S. Irenaeus in that he as they saie appealed oftentimes to the oldest Churches whiche had benne nearest to Christes time and whiche it was hard to beleeue that they had erred thus I saie Confut. â—â—4 a. Ye would seeme to be faine that we folowed the aduise of S. Irenaeus We are content with al our hartes And with Irenaeus we appeale to that Tradition Irenaeus lib 3. ca. 8. which is from the Apostles which as he saith is kepte in the Churches by Priestes that succeded them With Irenaeus leauing other Churches whose succession of Bishopes it were a long worke to reherse we require to haue recourse for trial of our Faith to the tradition of doctrine of the Romaine Churche which he termeth greatest oldest Idem lib. 3. cap. 3. best knowen to al founded and set vp by the twoo most glorious Apostles Peter and Paule We appeale to the Faith of that Churche taught abrode in the worlde and by successions of Bishoppes brought downe vnto vs. For to this Churche saith Irenaeus must al the Church of Christe repaire where so euer it be for that it is the chiefe of al and for that the tradition of the true doctrine whiche the Apostles lefte behind them is there faithfully kepte Wherfore if ye would after the counsel of Irenaeus resorte to Rome for decision of the controuersies that be betwixte you and vs and would them to be tried by that sense of doctrine whiche hath continued by Successions of Bishoppes euen from Peter to Pius the fourth now Pope and would stand to the auctoritie of that See Apostolike al strife were ended we should be at accorde But we haue litle hope that ye wil folowe this godly counsel of S. Irenaeus that blessed Martyr whose bodie your brethren the Huguenotes of Fraunce villanously burned at Lions Anno Domini 1562. after it had rested there thirteen hundred yeres and more In al these wordes as thou seest reader I say not as M. Iewel beareth her Maiestie in hande I doo that we must learne to know the wil of God only at the Popes hande But I declare whether we may most safely resorte for decision of the controuersies that be betwixte vs and the Protestantes Whereunto M. Iewel hath not yet answered ne neuer shal be hable to answere though in the Defence he haue shuffled together a great heape of allegations nothing perteining to the present purpose as his custome is to doo and a great parte of my confutation there he hath cut of M. Iewel cutteth and mangleth the Confutation in infinite places leauing out wordes of greatest vveight and therby hath fowly mangled the same as for his aduantage he hath done in infinite places leauing out the matters whereunto he had not what reasonably to answere See the place Reader Defence pag. 701. and thou shalt finde my worde true Item there Iewel That in the Popes onely holinesse standeth the vnitie and safetie of the Churche Confut. 204. b. Harding If I had so said in a right sense it might wel be allowed Howbeit thus I said Confut. 204. b. As Christe gaue vnto S. Peter and his Successours for the benefite of his Churche a supreme auctoritie and power so for the same Churches sake for whose loue he deliuered him selfe to death by petition made to his Father he obteined for him and his Successours Ioan. 14. Luc. 22. the Priuiledge of this Supreme and most excellent Grace that their Faith should neuer faile In consideration of whiche singular priuiledge obteined by Christe and graunted to the See Apostolike and to none other S. Gregorie rebuketh Iohn the Bishop of Constantinople so much as one that presumptuously vsurped that new name of vniuersal Bishop against the Statutes of the Gospel and against the decrees of the Canons To coÌ„clude if either S. Gregorie or any other maÌ„ should saie that the Churche dependeth vpon one man he might seeme to saie truthe meaning rightly and that not alone nor without good authoritie For such a saying we finde vttered by S. Hierome Hieron Contra Luciferian The saftie of the Churche saith he dependeth vpon the dignitie of the highest priest who if he haue not auctoritie peerlesse and aboue al other there wil be so many schismes in the Churche as there be priestes Which peerlesse auctoritie aboue al other as S. Hierome in that place doth attribute vnto the Bishop of euery Dioces directly so consequently to Peters successour to whom it was said Feed my shepe Iohan. 21. For by what reason in ech Dioces it behoueth one priest to be highest ouer other Priestes by the same and in like proportioÌ„ no lesse it behoueth that in the whole Church one Bishop be highest ouer other Bishoppes I meane for auoiding of schismes This reason is not ne can not of M. Iewel be auoided Of other thinges impertinent he bringeth vs great stoare out of other men in the Defence Defence pag. 452. but to this very reason wherein standeth the pointe touching the maintenance and preseruation of vnitie he saith nothing Item there Iewel That vvho so euer is diuided from the Pope must be iudged an Heretique and that vvithout the obedience of him there is no hope of Saluation Confut. 306. b. Harding Who so euer is diuided not onely from the Pope but also from any other Catholique Bishoppe in faith ought to be iudged an Heretique As touching obedience Iohan. 21. whereas by Christe he is commaunded to Feede his Lambes and his sheepe and thereby hath commission to gouerne them how can he be saued from the rauening woolues who through disobedience refuseth to come into that Folde and to be fedde and guided of that high Pastor I confesse that in certaine cases besides faith a man may disobey the Pope and yet not be remoued from all hope of saluation My wordes for whiche you make so muche a doo are these vttered vpon occasion of your Apologie Confut. fol. 306. b. Ye put vs in minde to consider how that your selues are those priuate hil Aulters and darke groues For ye be they that stoppe the people from the commoÌ„ Temple of Christendom the Catholique Church out of which is no saluation the head whereof sitteth in Peters Chaire at Rome Item there Iewel And yet as though it vvere not sufficient for him so vainely to sooth a man in open errours he telleth vs also sadly and in good earnest that the same Bishop is not onely a Bishop but also a kinge Confut. fol. 80. a. 305. b. Harding Neither haue I in any place soothed the Pope in open Errours but haue graunted that certaine Popes had their Errours either before they were called to that roume or also afterwarde holding them priuately and as priuate Doctours That the Pope erreth how is it denied But that by any publique decree geuen out to be holden and obserued of the Churche they euer mainteined or gaue assent or
the outward gouernment the being of a Head is common to Christe with others For in this respecte certaine others maie be called Headdes of the Church as in Amos the prophete the great states be called the Heades of the people So the Scripture speaketh of King Saul When thou were a litle one in thine owne eyes thou wast made Head emong the tribes of Israel So Dauid saith of him selfe he hath made me Head of Nations Amos. 6. 1. Reg. 15. Psal 17. Headship in respect of gouernement diuers in Christ and in menne * Left out by M. Ievvel In this sense the name of Head is attributed to princes and gouernours And yet not altogether so as to Christ First forasmuche as Christe is Head of al those that perteine to the Churche according to euery place euery time and euery state But menne are called Heades in regard of certaine special places as Bishoppes be called heades of their Churches Or in respect of a determinat time as the Pope is Head of the whole Church during the time of that calling And according to a determinate state euen so as menne be in the state of this mortal life for further stretcheth not this humanie Headship Againe the name of Head is attributed to Christe an other waie bicause Christe is Head of the Churche by his owne power and authoritie * Menne be called Headdes in asmuch as they be in steed of Christe and vnder Christe after whiche meaning S. Paule saith to the Corinthians 2. Cor. 2. For if I forgaue any thing to whom I forgaue it for your sakes forgaue I it in persona Christi in the person of Christe and in an other place we are Ambassadours in the steede of Christe 2. Cor. 5. euen as though God did exhorte you through vs. To conclude in fewe according to inward influence of grace into euery faithful member Christe onely is Head of the Churche according to outward gouerning the Pope vnder Christe and in steede of Christe is Head of the same These be my wordes there M. Iewel To whiche bicause you had nothing to saie you answer by your accustomed arte of mangling hewing awaie what liked you not by falsifying them and by putting in your owne selfe wordes in place of myne that teache the truthe And at length you fal to skoffing at my Logique making fonde and peeuish Argumentes of your owne forging bearing the simple reader in hande they are mine whiche God knoweth I neuer made nor no wise man elles For they are suche as of al that peruse your writinges you maie be knowen by them as a Begger is by his patched cloke or rather as a Vise is knowen by his Babul The greatest thing you saie is that al is myne owne tale that I tel and that I bring in no Scripture nor Doctour To this I answere Were it true that you saie as my Booke it selfe prooueth it false yet in this case my Yea hytherto is as good as your Nay and better too bicause it standeth with the vniforme Doctrine of the Churche Be it I allege no Authoritie of Scripture or Doctour to prooue the Pope Head bicause I am not yet comme to the place where I minde to prooue it Yet my case standeth as good as youres that bring neither Scripture nor Doctour to the contrarie If it had pleased you ye might haue founde bothe Doctours and Scriptures more The Rock of the Churche then you would gladly heare of in M. D. Sanders booke entitled the Rocke of the Church written for that behalfe and in M. Sapletons Returne written against your so many grosse Vntruthes and errours The Returne of Vntruths You crake muche of your great skil in Logique in comparison of other mennes ignorance searche out I praie you emong your rules of Logique whether Distinctio multiplicis in quaestione positi the Distinction of a worde that hath diuers significations placed in a controuersie ought not to goe before the disputation of the controuersie If it ought then haue I done rightly and orderly in that I made a Distinction of the terme Head before I entred to proue the Pope to be Head and you ignorantly and disorderly in calling vppon me to doo two thinges together against al good order of nature reason and learning or to doo the later before I had ended the former Testimonies auouching the Pope to be head of the Churche Peter the chiefe mēber of the Churche Gregor li. 4. epis 38. Now bicause you be so hasty to haue some Doctour to proue that the Pope is Head somewhat to satisfie your hasty humour the Authoritie of S. Gregorie afterwarde alleged by your selfe maie suffice any wise man who calleth S. Peter the chiefe member of the Church which the Pope succeding in that right of Peter is al one with that we saie the Pope is Head in gouernment vnder Christe What difference I praie you can your wisedome put betwixte the chiefe member and a Head vnder an other or in the steede of an other Chrysost in Matth. homil 55. It is your happe alwaie to allege Doctours to your owne Confusion S. Chrysostome also witnesseth that Peter was such a Head saying of him Ecclesia Pastor Caput Piscator homo The fisherman by whom he meaneth Peter is the shepehearde and head of the Churche Againe he saith in an other place Quod si quis percontaretur Chrysost in Ioan. Hom. 87. quo modo Iacobus Sedem Hierosolymis acceperit responderem hunc totius orbis magistrum praeposuisse In case any man would demaunde of me this question how Iames came to haue the See at Ierusalem I would answere him that this Peter the Maister of the whole worlde made him Bishop there Lo Peter Maister of the vvhole vvorlde he calleth Peter the Maister of the whole worlde by whiche worde what elles signifieth he but that he was the Head touching spiritual gouernment of the whole worlde He saith furthermore and that most plainely in an other place Ieremiam Genti vni pater Chrysost Hom. 55. in Matth. hunc autem vniuerso terrarum orbi praeposuit God the Father made Ieremie the Head and Gouernour ouer one nation onely that was the nation of the Iewes but as for this man Peter made hed of the vvhole vvorlde by Christ to wit Peter Christe made him Head and Gouernour ouer the whole worlde Are you contented now Verely I haue folowed your minde willingly And if ye require mo the like testimonies of me I remitte you to the Answer Ansvver I made vnto your Chalenge Art 4. fol. 9. b. c. where you shal finde that maie satisfie any learned man touching this pointe Neither are you hable to auoide the plaine force of those testimonies for al the great a doo you haue made in your huge Replie Iewel Pag. 94. Ye saie S. Paule saith If I forgaue any thing for your sakes 2. Cor. 2. I forgaue it in the personne
am ioyned in communion to the Chaire of Peter vpon that Rocke I knowe the Churche is builte Iewel Pope Adrian the fourth vvas vvoont to saye vve succede not Peter in feeding but Romulus in killing Harding Were it true you would haue named your authour Now your saying semeth to procede out of your owne Forge But what if it were true that Pope Adrian said so by waye of complaint This proueth that as some of his predecessours were euil men so alwaies God gaue his grace to some other Popes to disallowe their faultes and yet to continewe their Faith Doctrine and Succession Iewel Pag. 132. And to leane Dame Ioan the vvoman Pope vvith many others mee of like vertue and holinesse as hauing no pleasure in this rehersal Harding There was no such woman Pope and yet God knoweth you take stil great pleasure in the rehersal of a vaine dreame as you doo of many other false tales dreamed first by Martinus Polonus Iewel For as much as M. Harding began this matter vvith Sarisburie to ende it vvith the same Ioannes Sarisburiensis saith In Polya cratico in Romana Ecclesia sedent Scribae Pharisaei In the Church of Rome by Succession sitte the Scribes and Pharisees Harding The matter that I began here to treate of was not of Sarisburie but of your SuccessioÌ„ in Sarisburie for which notwithstanding the huge stuffe you bring you shewe your selfe to haue nothing to saie Touching Ioannes Sarisburiensis if it were so that Scribes and Pharisees sate in the Churche of Rome yet you should be damned for departing from them 3. Reg. 12. euen as Ieroboam was for departing from the Chaire of Moyses You are bound to communicate in Doctrine with the chiefe Chaier what soeuer they be that sit in it For Christe bad vs kepe that Matt. 23. which they commaunde Now as the Scribes and Pharisees sitting in the Chaire of Moyses did exactly kepe his Succession and witnessed the continuance of that Temple whereunto al the Iewes were bound So the Popes of Rome sitting in S. Peters Chaire do exactly mainteine his Succession and witnesse that to be the true Rocke and Churche whereunto al we are bound to be obedient as sheepe to the chiefe Pastour But sith you are desirous to end this matter begonne as you saye of Sarisburie with Sarisburie whereby you meane the auctoritie of Ioannes Saresburiensis therewith I am right wel contente For your parte that is to say against the Churche of Rome whose faith we professe whatsoeuer be the manners of some great persons in that Churche you allege Iohn of Sarisburie saying that Scribes and Pharisees sitte in the Churche of Rome True it is these wordes be in Iohn of Sarisburie in deede As for the Addition by Succession it is your owne it is not his But you must vnderstand they be not his owne wordes as spoken by him selfe but reported by him as wordes of the common people For being required of Pope Adrian the fourth who was an Englishman in familiar talke whereto for his learning and wisdome he was admitted to declare freely what was commoÌ„ly said abroade of the Pope and of the Churche of Rome among other thinges bruted abroade by waye of complaint specially against the Briberie and coueteousnes of great personages of that Churche he rehersed those wordes out of the Gospel Matt. 23. At the ende of his tale thus he concluded Iohannes Sarisburiensis in Polycratico de curialium nugis lib. 6. cap. â—4 signifiing whose tale he tolde Haec inquam Pater loquitur populus quandoquidem vis vt illius tibi sententias proferam These thinges Father the people speaketh for asmuch as you wil haue me to vtter vnto you what they saie Thus M. Iewel by testimonie of your Ihon of Sarisburie you proue nothing against our Doctrine of Succession but onely put vs in mynd what the common people in those dayes said of the gouernours of the Church If you would with as good sinceritie haue alleged on the other side what good he in the same booke and Chapter reporteth of them as with malice you reherse the euil you should haue laid forth a very good tale for them For immediatly after the wordes before rehersed thus it foloweth there Et tu inquit quid sentis And what is your opinion quod the Pope Thereto answereth Iohn of Sarisburie Angustiae inquam sunt vndique Vereor enim ne mendacij vel adulationis cortraham notam si solus populo contradixero Sin autem reatum vereor Maiestatis ne tanquam qui os in coelum posuerim crucem videar meruisse I am driuen quod he to straightes on euery side For I feare me I shal be noted for a Lyer or a flatterer if I alone be in my tale contrarie to the people Elles if I should saie as they saie I feare the gilte of treason least I seme to haue deserued the pounishment of death being as it were one that haue set my mouth vp against heauen This Preface semeth to conteine the wordes of one that intendeth to vtter the truth plainly and discretely And although there in deede he touche the Popes and the Romaine Clergies faultes freely yet on the other side he confesseth him selfe moued in coÌ„science to speake muche also in the praise of many These be his wordes Vnum tamen audacter conscientia teste profiteor Ibidem quia nusquà m honestiores Clericos vidi quà m in Ecclesia Romana aut qui magis auaritiam detestentur Albeit some be faulty yet one thing my conscience bearing me witnesse I dare be bolde to saie that no where I haue sene Clerkes of more honestie then in the Churche of Rome or that doo more deteste coueteousnes Of such good and vertuous Clerkes there he reckeneth vp some by name At length speaking of the number of the good in general he saith Plurium tanta modestia tanta grauitas est vt Fabriciâ— non inueniantur inferiores quem agnita salutis via modis omnibus antecedunt The modestie and grauitie of the more parte of them is so great that they are founde nothing inferior to Fabricius the noble Romaine of famous memorie for his vertue whom in respecte of that they acknowlege the waie of Saluation which he knew not being an Infidel by al meanes they passe and excelle Then folow these wordes immediatly which are most to our purpose and most worthy of consideration Quia verò instas vrges praecipis cùm certum sit quòd Spiritui sancto mentiri non licet fateor quia quod praecipis faciendum est si non sitis omnes operibus imitandi Nam qui a doctrina vestra dissentit aut haereticus aut schismaticus est For asmuche as you are instant vpon me and wil haue no nay and commaunde me to saie what I thinke sith it is certaine that I maie not lye vnto the holy Ghoste I graunte that what you commaunde vs to doo we must doo although ye be not
doctrine Where the thing you treate of is not in controuersie betwene you and vs and where you speake not with affection to ouercome Strange manner of vttering the faith we graunt some tymes ye vtter truth But the manner of vtterance of your Faith is straunge to Christen eares who haue bene accustomed to heare Credo in Deum Credo in Iesum Christum Credo in spiritum Sanctum I beleeue in God I beleeue in Iesus Christe I beleeue in the holy Ghoste That other forme of wordes whiche you vse soundeth not so Christianlike I beleeue there is a God I beleeue that Iesus Christ is the Sonne of the Father I beleeue that the holy Ghoste is God Although this forme of wordes doo expresse a right Faith yet being suche as maie be vttered by Deuilles and hath bene alwaies vttered by Heretikes their ministers the auncient and holy Fathers haue liked better the olde fourme and manner after whiche euerie Christen man saith I beleeue in God I beleeue in Iesus Christe I beleeue in the holy Ghoste For this importeth a signification of Faith with Hope and Charitie that other of Faith only which the deuilles haue and tremble as S. Iames saith wherein as in many other thinges Iacob 2. these Defenders resemble them S. Augustine in sundry places putting a difference betwen these two formes of wordes vpon S. Iohn alleging S. Paules wordes To one that beleeueth in him who iustifieth the wicked his Faith is imputed to righteousnes Rom. 3. In Iohan. Tract 29. To beleue in God what is it demaundeth what is it to beleeue in him It is by his aunswer Credendo amare credendo diligere credendo in eum ire eius membris incorporari with beleeuing to loue him with beleeuing to goe into him and to be incorporate in his members that is to be made a member of his body In an other place he saith speaking of Christe De verbis Domini Serm. 61 it It forceth muche whether a man beleeue that he is Christ and whether he beleeue in Christ. For the Deuilles beleeued that he was Christ neither for al that beleeued the Deuilles in Christ For he beleeueth in Christe who both trusteth in Christe and loueth Christe For if he haue Faith without Hope and Loue he beleeueth that Christe is he beleeueth not in Christe So he that beleeueth in Christe with beleeuing into him shal Christe come and by some meane he is vnited vnto him and is made a member in his body Whiche can not be done excepte there come also both Hope and Charitie Thus S. Augustine The same doctrine he vttereth writing vpon the 77. Psalme By this thou seest â—â—â—â—ed I blâ—me not their 〈◊〉 dâ—sâ—â—â— the Trinitie not their Profâ—sâ—ion of the CoÌ„mon Creede as M. Iewell calleth it but only I seeme beâ—ter to allowâ— the auncient and vsual manner of vttering the Beleefe whiche for good reason hath euer seemed to the learned Fathers more commendable Reason and consideration of duetie would that a Minister of Gods worde should be a fraide to vtter so great and so manifest vntruthes vnto his liege Soueraine But of like some wil saie he wil amende that faulte in other partes of his Epistle to her Maiestie specially sith that he allegeth nothing but directeth the Reader vnto the place where it is to be founde by his quotation noted in the margent whiche hath at least some colour of vpright dealing and being founde false declareth an impudent falshod I would wish that for truthes sake al would reade and conferre and iudge of the oddes betwen vs bothe First thus he writeth Iewel The maine grounde of his vvhole Plea is this that the Bishop of Rome vvhaâ— so 〈◊〉 it â—â—al like him to determine in iudgemeÌ„t can neuer â—rrâ— Fâ—â— directioÌ„ of the Râ—â—der he quoteth thus Câ—sus fo 334. b Harding What he meaneth by his terme Plea I wote not ne care not I pleade not for right of any temporal thing Neither am I a lawier as he knoweth 〈◊〉 emploie my studie of Diuinitie to defendâ— the. Catholique Faâ—th and to detecte his falshod that Godâ— people be not by him and his felowes dangerously seduced The thing whereat he scoffeth for these wordes what so euer it shal like him to determine be scorneful wordes is not so vttered by me as he reporteth Who liste to see what I saie for so muche as the booke of my Confutation is not alwaies at handâ— thus it is The Pope succedeth Peter in auctoritie and power Confut. Fol. 334. b For whereas the shepe of Christe continewe to the worldes ende he is not wise that thinketh Christe to haue made a shepeherd teÌ„porarie for a time ouer his perpetual flocke Then what shepeherdly endoument our Lorde gaue to the first shepeherde at the institution of the shepeherdly office of the Churche that is he vnderstanded to haue geuen ordinarily to euery successour To Peter he gaue that he obteined by his praier made to the Father that his Faith should not faile Againe to him he gaue grace Luca. 22. that to performe the performance whereof at him he required to wit that he confirmed and strengthened his brethren Wherefore the grace of stedfastnes of faith and of confirming the wauering Hovv aÌ„d vvherin the Pope erreth not â—e neuer erred and doubteful in the Faith euery Pope obteineth of the holy Ghoste for the benefite of the Churche And so the Pope although he maie erre by personal errour in his owne priuate iudgement as a man and as a particular doctour in his owne opinion yet as he is Pope the successour of Peter the Vicare of Christe in earth the shepeherd of the vniuersal Churche in publike iudgement in deliberation and definitiue sentence he neuer erreth nor neuer erred For when so euer he ordeineth or determineth any thing by his high bishoply auctoritie intending to binde Christen menne to performe or beleeue the same he is alwaies gouerned and holpen with the grace and fauour of the holy Ghoste Answer M. Iewel to this if ye can Certainely hitherto ye haue not answered As for that you bring against it in your pretensed Defence there is no graue or learned man of your side that is not ashamed of it In that game of scoffing I doo gladly yelde you the garlande Your greatest Doctours there are Alphonsus de Castro and Erasmus menne of our age As for Erasmus it were easie to Answer him but here I thinke his tale not worthe the Answering Mary Alphonsus saith somewhat to your purpose if the tale whiche you make him to tel were his owne Certainely if he once wrote it when he beganne first to write afterwards with better aduise he reuoked it For in the bookes of the later printes those woordes whiche you reherse are not founde Thus you saie Defence pag. â—â—5 AlphoÌ„sus de haeresiae buâ— li. 1. cap. 4. Alphonsus de Castro one of M. Hardinges owne special Doctours saith Non dubitamus an Haereticum
it and hath placed it in sundry corners of his bookes verely in his laste most vaine Defence of the Apologie in very many places With suche starres he geueth light to the congregations of his sect If this be not impudencie what is impudencie M. Ievvel The Apologie Parte 6. cap. 6. Diuis 1. The. â— Vntruth Some of them haue said The Pope is the lighte that is come into the worlde And who so is an il dooer fleeth that lighte M. Iewel falsifieth the Answere that I make vnto this obiection by cutting awaye those wordes wherein the answer consisteth Confutatio 287. a. as it may be sene in my Confutation Thus there I say and the same here I say againe we answer you on the behalfe of Cornelius the Bisshop of Bitontâ— in Italie Ioan. 1. that he neuer said The Pope is the lighte whiche should come into the worlde in that sense as it is spoken of Christe Neither is the Replie ye make directed vnto this answere For against the same ye haue in deede nothing to replie If that Bisshop in an Oration made at thâ— Câ—uncel of Trent spake vndiscreetely where it was lawful for al to speake freely what they thought good as it is or at least ought to be in our Parlamentes in England what is that to vs Neither are we bound to iustifie euery mannes priuate tale nor if any speake perhaps at a time vnaduisedly can that stand you in any steede for defence of wicked Schismes and Heresies with whiche ye are charged Howbeit Cornelius the Bishop of Bitonto there spake not altogether as you english his wordes and his saying being fauourably expounded in a conuenient sense as doubtelesse he meant it may be tolerated M. Ievvel The Apologie Parte 4. Cap. 1. Diuis 1. The. 9. Vntruth They haue decreed that a Priest for Fornication ought not to be remoued from his Cure You haue fouly falsified my Answer hereunto M. Iewel And in your pretensed Defence ye haue cut of from my Confutation muche that maketh directly against you as ye haue done through your whole Booke Confut. fol. 158. a. See my Confutation who wil and he shal finde you proued a foule lier And who be they I praie you that haue thus decreed In your said Defence you are faine to flee to your commoÌ„ frende the Glose vpon the Decrees out of which ye serue your selfe of muche gay stuffe And what saith the Glose It saith thus Dicunt neminem c. Why M. Iewel dependeth your whole proufe vpon the Glosers dicunt that is vpon a They saie Ye tel vs they haue decreed and being required to shew it you send vs to the Glose and yet there ye haue no certaine Decree but an vncertaine dicunt Ye haue litle knowledge in your Canon lawe I perceiue as great a lawier as ye make your selfe and as great a lawier as he is to whom ye gaue the Archedeaconrie of Northwiltshire to thintent he among others mo shoulde helpe you in patching together the Aphorismes and peeces of your lying Bookes After this ye goo for proufe hereof from the Glose to the margent of the Glose It is pitie this manne hath not authoritie to make Gloses of his owne autheÌ„tical to proue his toies by and that the marginal notes maie not stand him in steede of substantial authoritie But at length there as also in your Replie in the view of your Vntruthes Panormitane is brought in and he a Gods name is my greatest Canoniste saie you whereas ye knowe wel ynough M. Iewel Extra De consangui affini NoÌ„ debet the Canon lawe is not my profession But what saith he Hodie ex simplici fornicatione Clericus non deponitur for simple fornication now a daies a Clerke is not deposed Why M. Iewel this speaketh but of the practise that theÌ„ was and your promise was to shew vs where it was decreed you forgete your selfe pardie Fornication pounished in the Clergie But sir vnderstand you what in the Canon Lawe is meant by depositioÌ„ Deposition what it is If ye think it is nothing els but a Priest to be remoued from his cure for so you take it you are deceiued For it is a farre more greuous pounishment Deposition by the definition of the Canonistes is a remouing of a Clerke from the ministerie of the Aulter for euer Panormitane by you alleged saith that now a daies a Clerke is not deposed for simple fornication as in olde time indistinctly he was deposed As you finde in cap. A multis Extra de aetate qualita ordinand Yea saith he in olde time euery mortal sinne was thought worthy of DepositioÌ„ Distinct 4 ca. erit auÌ„t lex By Panormitane a Priest coÌ„mitting simple fornication is pounished otherwise then by Deposition diuersly in diuers respectes For the whiche you are referred to the chapter At si Clerici Extra De iudic Where he treateth more fully of this mater and as it were of purpose There shal ye finde how he is to be pounished Canone Apost 25. C. Maximinianus 81. dist alijs capitibus eo tit Deposition of tvvo sortes And here to saie somewhat therof for the better instruction of the Reader In the Canons of the Apostles it is plaine and also in diuers other olde Canons that as for theafte periurie and other crimes so for fornication a Clerk of what order so euer he were should be deposed Deposition is of two sortes the one which is solemne and with terrour when not only by sentence a Clerke is depriued of his holy Orders though the character yet remaine but vnprofitable to the executioÌ„ of holy Orders but also in deede and actually his head is shauen his sacred ornamentes takeÌ„ away and then him selfe turned into laie apparel as Cranmar and Ridley were in Oxford This kind of Deposition is properly called Degradatio Degradatio which is not vsed but when the offenders faulte is so great that he is to be deliuered to the secular power to be pounished C. Nouimus ext de verb. signif c. 1. de haereticis libro 6. Depositio properly executed or to be walled vp for euer The other kinde of Deposition is which is done only by sentence without actual Degradation and that is called properly Depositio the whiche is here meant They that were thus by only senteÌ„ce though not actually deposed froÌ„ the Clergie for their notorious and outragious offences were greuously pounished First it was a great losse to lose their Orders and dignitie of the Clergie Then also they lost al their spiritual liuinges and offices and al priuileges of Clerkes Besides this they were without al hope to be restored againe to the ministerie C. 1. cum 11. capit seq dist 5â— And withal they were condemned to some streight Cloister there al their liues long to lamente and bewaile their offence and so to doo penance C. Sacerdos cum c. seq 81. dis But they
vndoubted To this one argument M. Iewel you shal neuer be hable to answere truely and directly You adde yet farther Christe wil be euermore with his Churche yea though the whole Churche of Rome conspire against him It is true M. Iewel And therefore this being a matter impossible that the whole Churche of Rome should be hable to deface Christes Gospel or to defeate Christ of his promise it must needes folow that where you say the Pope hath blinded the whole worlde you haue said most vntruly and haue auouched that thing which by your owne confession in this place was not possible to be done Againe seing that though the whole Churche of Rome conspired against Christe yet Christe wil be euermore with his Churche and these many hundred yeres Christ hath had no other Churche then the Churche of Rome for the Pope you say hath blinded the whole worlde and D. Luther began to publish the Gospel a general darkenesse going before it must needes folowe that the same Church of Rome was the true Church of Christ that the said Church neuer coÌ„spired against Christ that the Pope neuer blinded nor was euer hable to blinde the whole worlde briefely that the same whiche you cal blindnesse was good sight and that which you cal darkenesse was cleare light Verely either so must it be or Christes promise must faile Of the which promise of Christ and of a number of other sayinges in the Psalmes in the Prophetes and in the Gospel affirming and confirming the same it hath ben largely and sufficiently treated in the foresaid Treatise intituled The Fortresse of our first Faith annexed to the Historie of venerable Bede of late translated into Englishe If you M. Iewel or any of your fellowes wil auoide this argument that proueth a knowen continuance of Christes Church answer to the first parte of that booke If you can not auoide that one Argument your newe doctrine is plainely proued to be false and heretical and the Faith of our Forefathers is plainely proued to be the Faith of the true and onely Catholike Churche of Christe in earth You pretende as if ye had aduantage for that I spake but of a thousand yeres For thus you inferre Iewel ibidem Pag. 32. But vvhy do you so much abate your reckening VVhy make you not vp your ful accompte of fifteene hundred three skore and sixe yeres as ye vvere vvont to doo Ye haue here liberally and of your selfe quite striken of fiue hundred three skore and sixe yeres Harding That we haue not striken of the first fiue hundred yeres as M. Iewel cauilleth You say vntruly M. Iewel The. 8. Chapt. I haue not striken of the first fiue hundred yeres c. But I and others doo God be praised defende and mainteine the Catholique Faithe no lesse by the Doctours and witnesses of the first fiue hundred yeres then by the Doctours and Witnesses of these last thousand yeres Yea Sir it is wel knowen to them that haue perused bothe our labours that you allege moe writers of these later ages by ten to one then either we doo of the same or your selfe doo of the first fiue hundred yeres It is wel knowen our writinges are confirmed with the authoritie of the Fathers of the firste fiue hundred yeres We allege very seldome the writers of these later ages condescending herein to your infirmities whiche through weakenes of Faith doo reiecte these later Fathers as too yonge and require to be persuaded onely by the Doctours and Councelles of the first sixe hundred yeres And herein we doo willingly omitte the greate aduantage whiche we might haue if we should presse you with the Writers of these later ages This is wel knowen M. Iewel to al that knowe any thing in matters of these common controuersies We haue Gods holy name be blessed largely and aboundantly prooued the Reall Presence the Sacrifice of the Masse the Popes Primacie the vse of Images the Confession of sinnes to the Prieste the Inuocation of Saintes the Praying for the dead the Churche seruice in the two learned tongues Greeke and Latine and such other matters by you nowe brought into Controuersie we haue sufficiently prooued them I saye by the Doctours and Councels of the first sixe hundred yeres wittingly and willingly a very fewe places excepted absteining from the Writers of these last thousand yeres not bicause we refuse them or contemne them but bicause ye refuse them that we might seeme to vse the better meanes to persuade you whose couersion we seeke and labour for You say therefore vntruly that I haue liberally of my selfe quite striken of fiue hundred yeres c. The cause why I named but these last thousand yeres your selfe I am sure are not ignorant of But so it liked you to dallye and to answer a most earnest and important question with trifling toyes cauilles and wranglinges It was your exception M. Iewel and prescription of the first sixe hundred yeres It was your lewde contempte of these later ages It was your blasphemous assertion condemning the Churche of Christe so many hundred yeres of Idolatrie superstition and palpable darckenes which made me to chalenge you with Christes promise for the Continuance of his Churche these last thousand yeres If you denie this to be your opinion of the last thousand yeres beside your prescription insinuating no lesse of the nine hundred beside your former wordes of Luthers first publishing of the Gospel for so you terme your wicked Heresies your owne wordes in this place doo signifie no lesse For thus you saie euen in this page Iewel Verely in the iudgement of the Godly fiue hundred of those first yeres are more vvorthe then the vvhole thousand yeres that folovved aftervvarde Harding This comparison is odious The commendatioÌ„ of the first fiue hundred yeres in comparison of the later ages and litle becommeth a ChristiaÌ„ maÌ„ If you speake of learning and vertue though the comparison be odious yet is it more tolerable For learning and vertue may seeme to haue excelled more in those former ages then in these later specially vertue and holines of life when as the bloude that Chriâ—â— shed for redemption of the worlde seemed to mennâ—â— hartes yet fresh and warme as in a place S. Augustine writeth And therefore those tymes brought foorth moe Martyrs As touching learning it muste also be confessed that moe Doctours in both tongues then excelled The north partes of the world coÌ„uerted in these later ages This without preiudice to the learned Bishoppes and Godly people of Christendom in so longe a time afterwarde might perhappes to the commendation of Antiquitie be graunted Howbeit it is not vnknowen to the learned that in these later thousand yeres the Northe partes of the worlde being many large and sauage Countries haue benne brought to the faith of Christe many Bishoppes and Monkes of excellent learning and of great perfection of life haue flourished many Martyrs also haue suffred as al histories and Chronographies doo
reason stand in doubt so it be without pertinacie as that for these be his examples Thobie had a dog or that Aaron had a bearde or that the Arke of the Testament had a couering of Goates heare Further there he procedeth and sheweth the same by the example of a Canoniste exercised in the determinations of holy Churche and an other man hauing thereof no skil nor knowledge likewise of a man skilled in Logique Philosophie and other humaine science and an other man vtterly ignorant and vnlearned The vvhole and true sentence of Gerson vvhiche M. Ievv falsifieth To come vnto the wordes which you haue fowly falsified thus he concludeth Denique sequitur ex his omnibus quòd iudicium conclusiones fidei licet auctoritatinè spectâ—nt ad Praelatos Doctores spectare tamen potest ad alios quà m Theologos deliberatio sicut cognitio super ijs quae fidem respiciunt ita etiam vt ad laicos hoc posset extendi plus aliquando quà m ad multos clericorum Finally of al these foresaid thinges it foloweth that although the Iudgement and Conclusions of faithe belong vnto the Prelates and Doctours by waie of auctoritie yet deliberation or consultation maie belong vnto others beside the Diuines as also examination and trial of those thinges that concerne the faith yea and that so as this thing might be extended vnto laie menne and more vnto them sometimes then to many of the Clerkes Now Reader if thou marke wel and consider Gerson speaketh not at al of geuing sentence definitiue in Councel thou maist see how M. Iewel deceiueth thee Gerson in this place speaketh not at al of the auctoritie of geuing sentence Definitiue in general Councels whereof our controuersie is Beholde therefore with what conscience this man handleth these matters First he falsifieth Gerson making him to speake expressely of Sentence Definitiue to be geuen in a Councel This priuilege of geuing Sentence in Councel saith he c. Then he vttereth Gersons wordes otherwise then Gerson doth Againe Gerson there speaketh of three thinges Of Iudgement to be geuen and Conclusions to be made of the Faith by waie of Auctoritie in general Of Deliberation and Cognition touching matters perteining to the Faith The first he saith belongeth vnto the Prelates and Doctours or Professours of Diuinitie only the seconde and the thirde not onely vnto the Diuines but also vnto others and saith he sometime that is in some cases it may be extended vnto laie personnes And this we holde wel withal For euen at this present we wish that the discrete and wise men of the Laitie would better deliberate of pointes of the Catholique faith then hitherto some haue done and that they would examine and trie your allegations and ours together by conference of the Bookes whence they be taken out that they maie be hable to iudge whether parte vseth more truth and vpright dealing If they would thus doo as perhappes some few of a great number doo they should soone see iust cause to condemne you and vtterly to geue you ouer Iewel Pag. 48. The. 14. Chapt. Verely M. Harding vve neuer said Luther and Zuinglius vvere the first publisshers of the Gospel Harding Proued by their owne wordes that Luther was the first publissher of the Gospel A great Vntruthe M Ievv denieth here tâ—at he saith othervvheres In this your Defence touching Luther you saie no lesse Pag. 17. thus Doctor Luther beganne to publishe the Gospel of Christe If he that beginneth to publish be the first publisher then you said that Luther was the first publisher If there be any difference betwen these two termes then haue you wel defended your selfe If there be none as al that vnderstand English maie easily see there is none then you haue proued your selfe giltie of a great vntruthe In the Apologie preteÌ„ded to be traÌ„slated by the Lady A. B But I must rather put you in remembrance of your owne wordes vttered in the Apologie Who called the first sedicious and heretical preaching of Martin Luther and Hulderike Zuinglius Herbam Euangelij the first spring of the Gospel or the very first appearing of the Gospel as your Ladie Interpreter termeth it Againe who saith that forty yeres agone and vpwarde that is at the first setting forth of Luther and Zuinglius the truth was vnknoweÌ„ and vnhard of and that they first came to the knowledge and preaching of the Gospel Be not these the wordes of your owne Apologie Be they not set forth in diuers bokes of diuers printes And wil ye now tel the worlde and beare vs also in hand who be wel acquainted with your false dealinges that ye neuer said so What can any man vnderstande by the first spring or first appearing of the Gospel but the beginning of the Gospel If the Gospel beganne with Luther and Zuinglius how was it before If before their time the Gospel was vnknowen and vnhearde of for so the Apologie saith then where was there any truth at al If it were not knowen nor hearde of at al where was it in al the earth Or imagine ye that it maie lie hid in some secrete place without and beside the harte minde and spirite of man And if as you saie Luther and Zuinglius came first to the preaching of the Gospel how were they not the first preachers of the Gospel If they were the first preachers how were they not also the first publishers of the Gospel Thus you saie and vnsaie Yea and Nay is one with you And a Gods name al must be defended be it yea be it nay be it true be it false But thus it is cleare that your worde is not the Gospel And God be praised that we haue driuen you to eate your owne worde Iewel Pag. 48. Of Abailard and Almarike and certaine other your strange names he meaneth Apostoliques Peterbrusians VValdenses Albigenses and Imagebreakers vve haue no skil They are none of ours Harding That these Heretiques be of M. Iewelles side The 15. Chapt. I am glad M. Iewel to heare you so absolutely to renouÌ„ce these wicked heretiques at lest in wordes Would God ye would as freely forsake their Heresies in your doinges Alphonsus de Castro lib 9. Bernard Lutzeburg Almarik the heretique First as touching Petrus Abailardus he denied the free wil of man Doo not your great Maisters Wiclef Luther Zuinglius Peter Martyr and Caluine the same If these be yours how is not Abailard also yours Almarik the Frenchman taught of Images of Aulters of Inuocation of Saintes and of Transubstantiation as you doo condemning the Church of Idololatrie in al these pointes as you doo Of this Almarik then haue you no skil Is he not thus farre yours What are you become an other man Bernardus Serm. 66. super Cantica VValdeÌ„ses AEneas Slyuius Bohem. Histor cap. 35. then menne take you to be The Apostolikes denied Purgatorie as you doo The Waldenses in many pointes agree iumpe
is that you adde that our doctrine is forsaken the worlde through No M. Iewel not so Gods holy name be blessed it is not yet forsaken al England through We knowe it right wel we praise God for it and reioise therein You know it also and it greeueth you at the harteful deepely and specially that diuers haue returned from your lying Religion to the truthe of the Catholique Faithe euen in these last yeres when ye semed to haue most prospered in the sight of the worlde Suche is the nature of truth the more it is pressed downe the more it riseth vp A lie impudently auouched by M. Ievvel and sheweth it selfe Had our doctrine ben forsaken the world through your Gues I trowe in these lowe Countries and your Huguenotes in Fraunce had prospered better But what wil not you sticke to auouch which so boldely yea so impudently doo auouche such a knowen Vntruthe Vntruthe Nay so sensible and so palpable a Lie The Catholique doctrine not only contineweth in Italie FrauÌ„ce Spaine Portugal and Germanie in whole Countries and Territories but euen where your brethâ—â—n are thickest there lacke not Catholiques right many and perfitte among them Yea the Catholique doctrine is preached and published among heathens and Infidelles to the great glorie of God and to the great despite of the deuill and his ministers as it wel appeareth by your selfe M. Iewel and by your wordes whiche before I haue touched If our doctrine be forsaken the worlde through where are we M. Iewel against whom you write so busily Are we out of the worlde Where was the late general Councel with so many Bishoppes learned Doctours and Princes Ambassadours there present al condemning your hainous heresies Were they al out of the world or haue they al now changed their minde and yelded vnto you Maximilian the noble Emperour King Philip of Spaine with al his so sundry and so large Dominions besides the kingdome of Naples and Sicilia the Dukedomes of Millan Burgundie Brabant Holland Zeland Friseland Gelderland the Counties of Tyrol Flaunders Henault and Artois Charles king of Fraunce the kinges of Portugal and of Polonia The states and Princes of Italie with also many Dukedomes Free Citties States of Christendome besides al yet remaining Catholique are they al out of the worlde I can not tel whether I may cal this lye more impudent or more foolish Iewel Pag. 50. Neither there any sufficient cause to the contrarie but that Berâ—â—garius Iohn VViclef Iohn Hus D. Luther Zuinglius Oâ—colampadius and others either for learning or for truth or for iâ—â—â—â—ment in the Scriptures or for Antiquitie may vvel and safely bâ— coâ—pared vvith Lanfrancus Guimundus Abbas Cluniacensis Thoâ—â—â— VValdensis Iohn Fisher and others Harding What difference there is betwen these holy Fathers and those pestilent Heretiques The. 17. Chapt. No no Sir the oddes is exceding great Berengarius Wiclef Hus Luther Zuinglius and Oecolampadius non comunicabant oiÌ„bus gentibus illis Ecclesiis Apostolico labore fundatis Aug. cont Lit. Petil. lib. 2. cap. 16. did not coÌ„municate with al nations and those Churches which were founded by the Apostles labour Nay by the ful and intier coÌ„sent of al nations Christened assembled in general Councelles they were al condemned Berengarius in the great general Councel of Lateran Anno. 1205. Wiclef and Hus in the general Councel of Constance Anno. 1413. Luther and the rest among whom you may take your selfe for one in the late General Councel of Trent Contrariewise the other Fathers communicated with the whole corps of Christendome then liuing They were Bisshoppes and Doctours of that age lineally succeding in the Catholique doctrine euen from the Apostles and the Apostolike menne Againe these said Fathers are accompted and placed in honorable roumes as Lumina Ecclesiae lightes of the Churche in al Chronographies yea made and written by the Protestantes them selues namely by Henricus Pantaleon of Basil and others of your secte Berengarius on the other side with al the rest are noted in the Chronographies drawen out by ProtestaÌ„tes them selues in the rewe and line of condemned heretiques Thirdly what comparison is there betwen lewde lecherous Luther and that holy Bisshop B. Fisher and blessed Martyr of God Doctour Fisher late Bisshop of Rochester The very writinges of bothe extant doo declare the diuersitie of their spirites Luther taketh his pleasure in Ribaudrie belketh out filthinesse breatheth rancour raileth and reuelleth against the honorable states of the worlde beyonde al measure euen against thâ—t Prince him selfe that afterwarde prepared the waie for your heresies to procede lustily King Heâ—â—ie the eight The writinges of D. Fisher are wel knowen to be modest piththy and learned and at this present highly esteemed in al Christendome So are the writinges of Lanfrancus Guimundus and Cluniacensis Of the others we haue but names only leaft except Luther with the two others whose writinges yet no doubte if euer Goddes truth preuaile wil also at length come to nought and haue the like fortune as the bookes of al other heretikes haue had Iewel Pag. 50. The Councelles ye meane are very nevve and therefore beare the lesse Authoritie for that they be so many vvaies contrarie to the olde Certainely there is none of your errours so grosse and palpable but by some of your late Councelles it hath benne confirmed Harding The causes examined for which M. Iewel alloweth not the Councelles of these last 500. yeres The. 18. Chapt. Guli MalmesburieÌ„ lib. 3. de gestis Anglorum Guimundus Al. gerus lib. 1 de Sacramentis Platina in Innocentio 3. Tyrius lib. 21. cap. 26 Guido Carmelita de haeresibus Platina Palmerius Nauclerus Three causes then there are if I vnderstand you wel why you and your felowes so saucily doo condemne the General Councelles holden in Christendome within these last fiue hundred yeres as the Councelles holden at Toures in Fraunce at S. Iohn Lateran in Rome that vnder Nicolaus 2. to the number of 114. Bishoppes this vnder Innocentius 3. whereunto Patriarkes Archebisshoppes Bishoppes and Abbates out of al partes of Christendome resorted to the number of a thousand two hundred fourescore and fiue Fathers in al which the doctrine of Berengarius was condemned Also the other General Councel holden at S. Iohn Lateran at an other time to the number of 300. Bishoppes both of the East and the West Churche where the Waldenses your brethren were condemned the Councel of Constance where the doctrine of Wiclef and Hus was condemned to the number of 270. Bishoppes last of al the General Councel of Trent to the number of 198. Bishoppes where sundry of your present heresies were after mature discussion with ful consent accursed and condemned Al these and diuers other Councelles for three causes you contemne and despise First for that they are very newe Secondly for that they are contrary to the olde Thirdly bicause al our errours haue benne confirmed in them Your first cause implieth a
signification whiche he wil appointe and not for that whiche aggreeth best with the right meaning of the Authours minde No doubte Fulgentius neuer meant to take the terme Fourme in suche a signification that shoulde exclude Christes bodily Presence from the blessed Sacrament in the doing whereof he should haue benne contrarie both to him selfe Termes that haue diuers significations are not to be taken at pleasure but according to the Tradition and to the Faith of the Catholique Churche at that time vniuersally confessed Looke in the Scriptures there shal you finde diuers Termes that haue many significations If Heretiques might haue the libertie that M. Iewel claimeth to appointe in euery place where any suche Terme is vsed what signification the same must haue they might easily ouerthrowe al the groundes of our Faithe The Article of the Resurrection of our flesâ—â— were quite abolished 1. Cor. 15. bicause it is written Carâ— sanguiâ— regnum Dei non possidebunt Fleshe and bloude shal not possesse the kingdome of God Rom. 8. Againe Qui in carne sunt Deo placere non possunt they who are in fleshe can not please God In these places and suche others if fleshe and bloude should be taken for the substance and not for the vicious motions and filthie actes that rise out of the fleshe no man should be saued no fleshe should be partaker of eternal life contrarie to holy Iobs Confession and beleefe Iob. 19. who said Et in carne mea videbo Deum And in myne owne Fleshe I shal see God Where Fleshe is taken for the Substance and not for the corruption of the Fleshe Psal 83. Cor meum caro mea exultauerunt in Deum viuum My harte and my fleshe reioised in the liuing God Verbum Caro factum est Ioan. 1. the worde was made fleshe Where Fleshe is taken for the Substance If then any Heretique would be so frowarde as arrogantly to stand in Defence that as Fleshe is taken in these later places for the substance euen so it must be taken in the former as M. Iewel plaieth for the signification of this terme Fourme Where were the Resurrection of our fleshe to life eternal Yea where were our Saluation Where were our Faithe 1. Cor. 15. Inanis esset fides vestra inanis praedicatio nostra Your faith were voide our preaching also were voide saith S. Paule Infinite suche places might be brought of Termes that haue many significations whose signification for euery place if M. Iewel had ful authoritie to appointe at his pleasure to serue best his owne turne our Faith woulde soone be quite ouerthrowen For very shame lette M. Iewel from henceforthe leaue dallying in matters of Faith by Equiuocation of Termes The Counterfeit personage he beareth should put him in minde of more sadnesse honestie and plainer dealing Be it that the Ladie Interpreter The Ladie Interpreter Pag. 89. whome you doo praise so muche be of suche learning vertue and grauitie yea hable to ouermatche your selfe also if you putte not on your saddest countenance yet shal you alwaie finde her giltie of vnwomanly Presumption either in translating that whiche she vnderstoode not or if she vnderstoode it in that she stepte a wrye for the nonce vsing one signification of the worde when the author meaneth the other In which case I might with more reason and right reprehend her not onely of Presumption but also of Malice in that she woulde deceiue the ignorant Reader then you might reprehende the lacke of manly Modestie in me in warning the Reader to take heede An impudent and filthy corruption and falsifying of the wordes of the Confutation VVil ye see hovv this man dissembleth a faulte Iewel Pag. 89. I vvil not here tel you M. Harding hovv lovvdely you haue demeaned your selfe tovvardes her vvhom it liketh you so often and so scornefully to cal the Lady Interpreter c. I beseeche you cal your vvordes againe to minde if you can vvithout blushing So roughly to handle so softe a creature This Phrase of speeche your very frendes haue mutche misliked and as it is in deede so in Plaine vvordes they cal it Ruffianrie a vertue although matche agreable vnto your profession yet vnmeete for a man either of learning or of sober vvisedome But this faulte emong many others as I haue said I vvil dissemble Harding M. Iewelles impudencie and Ruffianly corruption detected The .2 Chapt. You wil not here tel me you saie how lewdely I haue demeaned my selfe towardes my Lady A. B. what shal I cal her For the name of my Lady Interpreter liketh you not Yea God knoweth suche Charitie is suddeinly blowen vpon this man that if he knew any lewde faulte in me he woulde conceele it and spare my honestie I beseeche God so to keepe me by his grace from sinne and shame as I were sure by him bothe in bookes and pulpites to be proclaimed lewde and vnhonest if he knewe any lewde or vnhonest acte done by me And whereas you pretende you wil not tel me ye tel al and more then al. But tel on in Goddes name M. Iewel and saue your belly from bursting saie the worst ye can if you can saie any thing without a lye Marke Reader hovv this RuffiaÌ„rie is proued As for this Ruffianrie wherewith you charge me il be he thought of that il thinketh In good sooth before you wrote these impure wordes I did not so muche as once thinke of the Filth which your filthy penne ruled by commaundement of your filthy harte hath here most filthily vttered God be thanked that your Searchers and Promotours haue not mette with al the Bookes of my Confutation of your Apologie There the Reader shal finde these very wordes whereby your malice Confutat fol. 41 a. and impudencie maie appeare to al the worlde Confutation Whether I maie charge her with so hainous a crime of a falsifyed translation or no I doubte Perhaps as she passeth the boundes of womanly state in presuming to medle so farre in these perilous matters allowed now by a fewe of the newe Englishe Churche and disallowed alwaies by the whole auncient Churche of Christendome if the translation be hers and not an others set forth in her name so maie I seeme to forgete courtesie thus roughly to blame so softe a creature What Ruffianrie M. Iewel can you finde in these wordes of mine Why shoulde any frende of myne mislike this Phrase of speache Why maie not I cal them to minde without any blushing at al In deede as you haue falsly reported them altering one worde for an other whereas I wrote I maie seeme to forgete courtesie thus roughly to blame so softe a creature your false reporte being so roughly to handle so softe a creature in phantasiastical headdes and vncleane imaginations it might breede an opinion of some vnchaste meaning But if your Euangelical sinceritie could haue suffred my wordes to stande as they were by me
the Chaier of Vnitie hath placed the doctrine of Veritie And immediatly S. Augustine bringeth forth this texte of Christe whereupon we now dispute S. Chrysostom saith Chrysost in Matth. Hom. 74. Benefite graunted vnto Succession Iohannes Sarisburiensis in Polycratico de CurialiuÌ„ nugis li. 6 cap. 24. Platina in Vitis Pontificum whereas Christ could not make the Scribes and Pharisees worthy of faith for their manners he doth it à sede Moysi doctrina for that they sate in the seate of Moyses and taught his doctrine So that albeit Scribes and Pharisees did sit in S. Peters chaier at Rome as M. Iewel affirmeth one Ihon of Sarisburie to saie who in deede saith it not of him selfe but in familiar talke reported vnto Adrianus quartus the Pope what was bruted abroad by the common people yet for their Chaier and Successions sake they must be obeied For in the Chaier of Vnitie God hath put the doctrine of Veritie and in that Chaier euil menne haue benne constrained to saie the Truth as I could shew at large by the example of Pope Vigilius who a thowsand yeres past before he came to be Pope promised the Emperesse to confirme the Patriarke of Constantinople being an Heretique but being once in the Chaier of Peter he chose rather through Gods grace to suffer death then that he would so defile the See Apostolike as by open bishoply facte to establish an heretike in a bishoply seate Iewel pag. 127. Annas and Caiphas touching Succession vvere as vvel Bishops as Aaron and Eleazar Harding Not fully so wel bicause perhaps they came to it by Simonie and yet bicause they were Bishops and sate in that Chaier God honoured them I wisse not for any vertue of theirs but only for theire Chaiers sake The honour which God gaue them was the gift of Prophecie as it appeareth by that which he gaue euidently to Caiphas who was the Bishop of that yere August tract in Iohan. 11. Which thing S. Iohn witnesseth in these wordes Vnus ex Pontificibus Caiphas nomine cùm esset Pontifex anni illius prophetauit quia Iesus moriturus erat pro gente One of the chief Priestes Caiphas by name whereas he was Bishop of that yere prophecied that Iesus should die for the people Vpon which place S. Chrysostom saith Chrysost In Iohan. homil 64 Vides quanta sit pontificalis potestatis virtus Cum enim pontifex esset licet indignus prophetauit nescius tamen quid diceret ostantùm Gratia non autem foelestum cor attigit Doest thou see how great the vertue of bishopply power is For whereas he was a Bishop albeit vnworthy he prophecied yet not knowing what he said And the Grace touched his mouth only but not his wicked hart And afterward againe Quid signat â–ª quum esset pontifex anni illius What meane thesâ— wordes whereas he was Bishoppe of that yere Among other this custom was corrupted For now the hye priesthood was not during life but made a yerely dignitie and was geuen yere by yere from the time that the chieftie was to be solde for monie Veruntamen etiam sic aderat spiritus Yet that notwithstanding the holie Ghost or gift of God was yet present Postquà m autem in Christum manus extenderunt tunc eos dereliquit abijt ad Apostolos But after they extended their handes vpon Christe then the holy Ghost forsooke them and went from them to the Apostles S. Augustine likewise writeth thus August in IohanneÌ„ tract 49. Hîc docemur etiaÌ„ homines malos prophetiae spiritu futura praedicere quod tamen Euangelista diuino tribuit sacramento quia Pontifex fuit id est summus sacerdos Here we are taught that euen euil men foretel thinges to comme by the spirite of prophecie the which thing yet the Euangelist ascribeth to the diuine Sacrament bicause he was the Bisshop that is to saie the high Priest If then Caiphas being one of the vilest menne that euer was and committing the most horrible sinne that can be deuised in murdering Christ yet for his successions sake had the gift of prophecie shal we now geue eare to M. Iewels itching humour wherein he so reioyseth to recken vp the faultes of the Popes of Rome Be it some of them were proude and some coniurers The Popes teach truth not vvithstaÌ„ding their euil life or neuer se great sinners besides yet so long as they sit in Peters chaier which doubtlesse hath no lesse priuilege theÌ„ Moyses chaier had we saie they haue the holy ghost to this effect that they keeping them selues in the faith of their Predecessours shal not be suffered to teach vs false doctrine out of the Chaier of Vnitie whiche Chaier of Vnitie Optatus more then eleuen hundred yeres past affirmed Peters Chaier to be Optat. lib. 2. contra Parmen and reckened vp the Bishops thereof in order til his owne time Therefore as from Moyses time til Christes Comming God of his mercie prouided that a Bishop and high Prieste with other Priestes and Leuites about him should not faile in Moyses Chaier whom al men vnder paine of death as it is said in the booke of Deuteronomie Deut. 17. were bounde to heare and obeye so muche more in the time of Grace God hath prouided that in the Chaier of S. Peter to whom louing Christe more then the other Apostles Iohan. 21. he consequently gaue Authoritie to feede his sheepe in suche superioritie aboue the other Apostles as he loued aboue them muche more I saie now God hath prouided that there shal not lacke til Christes second comming a Bishop or high Prieste in Peters Chaier with other Bisshops and Priestes not onely about him in that one Citie of Rome but also ioyned with him in the same faith and doctrine in manie Countries and Nations together whose final sentence in matters of faith and of good manners who so euer heareth and obeieth heareth and obeieth Christe but who so euer despiseth the same he despiseth Christe him selfe Now I saie to you M. Iewel what Bishop had your faith with preachers Ministers or Deacons about him from age to age who mighte wittnesse in al generations the Doctrine of Christe and the ordinarie Succession of the Churche Iewel Pag. 127. Of Succession S. Paule saith to the faithful at Ephesus I know that after my departure hence rauening wolues shal enter Act. 20. and succede me And out of your selues there shal by succession spring vp men speaking peruersly Harding I thought so you haue a succession to but it is of rauening Wolues They are your Predecessours and yee are their Successours For this saying M. Ievvel falsifieth the Scripture as you haue handled it is yours and noâ—â— Paules He saith not that rauening Wolues should succeede him as your blasphemous penne hath vttered but he saith onely that after his departure rauening Wolues shal enter in Scriptures falsified by M. Ievvel But he addeth not that they
ad Antichristum velut prorsus vnanimes declinassent VVould God they vvere not al gonne by consent together from religion to superstition from saith to infidelitie from Christ to Antichrist These fevv vvordes considering either the speaker or the place vvhere they vvere spoken may seme sufficient Harding If you had considered either the speaker or the place so as you ought to haue donne you might haue benne ashamed to haue alleged the woordes of a Catholike Prelate for your purpose For what soeuer he meant by them you may be wel assured he meant not to say that the Catholique Churche was gonne from faith to infidelitie or from Christe to Antichrist Otherwise he him selfe would not haue stil continued in that Catholique Churche which had seemed to him to haue lacked faith Cornelius episcopus Bitōtinus and Christe But nowe the man is knowen in al Italie and is aliue to this daye who stil continueth in dayly preaching and in exhorting al men to flie from your heresies to the Catholike faith and to keepe them in the Churche so that his deedes do wel shewe what he meant by his wordes The whiche rule S. Augustine would haue kepte in the vnderstanding of what so euer Writers A lesson hovv to vnderstande mennes vvordes in matter of Religion Contra epist Parmen li. 3. cap. 4. and specially touching religion And who so euer doth not so vnderstand mennes wordes by their deedes vpon his blindnesse he cryeth out in this sorte Incredibilis est coecita hominum omnino nescio quemadmodum credi posset esse in hominibus tanta peruersitas nisi experimento verborum suorum factorúmque patesceret vsque adeo se clausos habere cordis oculos vt commemorent sanctae Scripturae testimonia nec intueantur in factis prophetarum quemadmodum intelligenda sint verba Prophetarum It is an incredible blindnesse of menne and verely I knowe not howe it might be beleeued that there is suche frowardnesse in menne onlesse by the proufe of their wordes and deedes it appeared openly that the eyes of their harte were so fast closed that they allege the testimonies of holy scripture and do not consider by the doinges of the Prophetes how the wordes of the Prophetes are to be vnderstanded And straight after where S. Augustine saith those wordes he sheweth by example what he meant Hieremie had written Hier. 2. what hath Chaffe to doo with the Wheate The Donatistes thereupon reasoned that the Catholikes were Chaffe and them selues Wheate but saith S. Augustine by waie of exposition there did Hieremie that said the Iewes were Chaffe forsake their Church and fellowship No verely How so euer then Hieremie the prophete meant we ought to vnderstand his wordes according to his deedes And seing as concerning his deedes he liued in one Temple and faith with them whom he called Chaffe we may be wel assured that by the name of Chaffe he meant not that the Iewes had not true Faith and Religion but only that they had not true Charitie and Obedience Euen so if M. Iewel would consider that the Bishop of Bitonto goeth not from Italie to Geneua nor to Germanie nor to England but both abideth stil in his Bisshoprike and hath so much preached against these present Heresies of Luther Zuinglius and Caluin that now three whole Volumes of his eloquent Italian Sermons are extant in print if he would haue considered this he might haue benne ashamed with such a great brauarie and so ofte to haue alleged a Catholike mannes woordes against Rome the mother Churche of al Catholikes S. Augustine calleth it an incredible blindnesse so to doo and suche as no man would beleeue except he saw it vsed But by whom Verely by Heretikes who hauing no truth for them doo stil make vaine bragges and shewes of woordes when the very deedes of them whose woordes they bring are against them Which thing I stand the longer vppon bicause M. Iewel hath vsed this practise aboue a thowsand times in his pretensed Defence M. Ievvel euery vvhere allegeth their vvordes for him vvhom by their deedes he vvel knoweth to be against him Aboue a thousand tymes I say he hathe alleged the woordes of Schoolemen Gloses Summistes and Canonistes for his purpose whereas he wel knoweth they beleeued al suche as he is to be detestable Heretiques and for suche condemned them Yet must they be brought in and that so often so seriouslie and with suche Preambles as though he woulde beare the worlde in hande they were cleare of his side Neither did Cornelius the Bisshoppe of Bitonto speake of the Bisshoppes of Rome specially as M. Iewel would beare the Readers in hande Bitōtinus in oratione habita in Concil Tridentino but generally of the Christians saying that they haue wandered like sheepe in hilles and feeldes and that the chiefe of them are turned from authoritie vnto Lordlynes from right vnto wronge and would God saith he they were not vtterly as it were with one consent bowed from Religion to superstition from faith to infidelitie from Christ to Antichrist Neither doth he say they are al gonne as M. Iewel englisheth the woordes Hovv M. Ievvel falsifieth his allegation The woorde al is not there Againe he saith not they are gonne by consent altogether but velut prorsus vnanimes as it were vtterly of one minde The worde velut as it were doth temper his woordes but M. Iewel hath leafte out velut and hath put in this worde al lest if the sentence of that Bishop should be thus tempered it should not seeme greuous inough His meaning was to complaine as euery good man dayly doth vppon the vices of menne who liue as if they had neither Faithe nor Religion And that woulde haue appeared most plaine if M. Iewel had not cutte of the later woordes of Cornelius vncourteously stopping him from telling out his whole tale For in the very same sentence it foloweth A Christo ad Antichristum quin à Deo ad Epicurum vel ad Pythagoram velut prorsus vnanimes declinassent Would God they had not as it were vtterly with one consent gonne a side from Christe to Antichriste yea rather from God to Epicure or to Pythagoras These last woordes whiche made al plaine were omitted by M. Iewel as his custome is and the authours tale is falsified and his woordes abused For any man woulde soone iudge that they goe not to Epicure or Pythagoras to the ende to mainteine the doctrine and opinions that those Philosophers helde Pardonne me good Reader if herein I seeme to long For at this tyme I doo but as it were geue thee a shewe what and howe muche might be said in euery other Article of the Booke if I thought it labour worthe to discusse them particularly For I assure thee in my conscience there is not any thing in this pretensed Defence whiche might not be wel and easily answered were not that it seemeth to me a thing both superfluous so to answere suche heapes of
that there is no succession in doctrine Now I saie ronne ouer al the Bisshops of Rome and you can saie of neuer a one this man coÌ„ming into his Predecessours See did oppugne his doctrine or preached with the Churche of Romes contentation against that which was in vse before So that in Rome al thinges are euen at this day concerning faith as S. Peter leafte them For euery man hath agreed in outward Decree senteÌ„ce and profession with al the predecessours and successours Iewel Pag. 132. S. Bernard saith Quid prodest si canonicè eligantur In concil Remen non canonicè viuant VVhat auaileth it if they be chosen in order and liue out of order Harding It auaileth nothing to the euil liuer but yet it auaileth muche to him that obeieth the good and true doctrine of the euil teacher Iewel So saith S. Augustine Ipsum characterem multi lupi Cont. Donatist lib. 6. 1. q. 3. vocantur caâ—es Character vvhat it signifieth in the Sacraments lupis imprimunt The outvvarde marke or right of a bisshop many geue to vvolues and be vvolues them selues Harding By Character is not meant an outward marke but rather an inwarde marke and print which through the receiuing of certaine Sacramentes is imprinted in the soules of them who receiue them of whiche sorte are Baptisme Confirmation and holy Orders And those sacramentes being once receiued caÌ„ not be repeated or be againe receiued of the same person For the Sacrament of Christes body and bloud although it be an outward signe yet it leaueth not any Character or suche inward print in the soule as may be no more repeated But letting that errour passe of the true interpretation of this worde Character I graunt that Heretikes may baptize heretikes euen without the Churche and the Baptisme shal stand although it be vnlawfully ministred What maketh that against the Suceession of Bishops It rather proueth that seing the Sacramentes may be ministred if not to saluation of them that are of discretion yet truly and really without the true Churche there must be an other rule taken to know the true Church by besides the administration of Sacramentes And that true and certaine rule is the perpetual Succession of the See Apostolike Iewel Pag. 132. Therefore the auncient father Irenaus geueth vs this good counsel Eis qui sunt in Ecclesia presbyteris obedire oportet Iren. lib. 4. ca. 43. qui successionem habent ab Apostolis qui cum episcopatus successione charisma veritatis certum secundùm beneplacitum patris acceperunt It becommeth vs to obey those Priestes in the Churche vvhich haue their succession from the Apostles and together vvith the Succession of their bishoprikes according to the good vvil of God the Father haue receiued the vndoubted gifte of the truthe Harding Al this maketh against you M. Iewel For seing you can shew no such Priestes hauing their Succession from the Apostles and hauing receiued the vndoubted gifte of the truth whom ye doo obeye it is certaine that ye haue not the gifte of the truthe among you On the other side seing we haue Priestes that is to say Bishoppes of Rome who are also Priestes which haue their SuccessioÌ„ from the chiefe and most glorious Apostles Peter and Paule and seing such Priestes and Bishops keeping stil the same faith and doctrine from man to man haue receiued the vndoubted gifte of the truth according to the good wil of God the Father doubtelesse the vndoubted marke of the truth is with vs only and not with you at al who haue no Succession at al of any Priestes and much lesse of any suche Priestes that succede lineally from the Apostles them selues Iewel 132. S. Cyprian being likevvise charged for dissenting from his predecessours Lib. 2. epist 3. ansvvereth thus Si quis de antecessoribus meis c. If any of my predecessours haue not obserued and kepte the same that our Lorde hath taught vs both by his example and also by his coÌ„maundement his simplicitie may be pardoned but we if we doo the like can hope for no pardon being nowe admonished and instructed of our Lorde Harding Cough vp man it wil choke you Phy. vvhat a fowle corruption is this Lib. 2. epist 3. if you let it tarry within your throte Here is but halfe the bone there is yet in S. Cyprian no ful point it foloweth in the same sentence Vt calicem Dominicum vino mixtum secundùm quod Dominus obtulit offeramus We can hope for no pardon who are now admonished and instructed of our Lorde that we should offer our Lordes chalice mixed with wine accordingly as our Lorde offered the same Either M. Iewel tooke this saying of S. Cyprian vpon the Germaine credite as he found it noted in their bookes and then his false brethren deceiued him or els he wrote it out of S. Cyprian himselfe and then his studie and wil was to deceiue vs. He would ful gladly haue geuen vs an authoritie that we might forsake the example of our Predecessours but he was loth we should see the thing wherewith the authoritie was exemplified For if at any time he say al he is sure to speake against him selfe and no wonder because he speaketh against the truth and euerie good saying euermore agreeth with the trtuh First he corrupteth S. Cyprian in putting in meis for nostra my predecessours in stede of our predecessours For S. Cyprian speaketh not of his owne Succession but of what soeuer Priest or Bishoppe that liued before his time Againe S. Cyprian spake not of any such custome as had ben generally vsed of al Bishops for then it had ben of ful authoritie but of that which some one man vsed priuatly and without keeping the lawe of Succession And therefore S. Cyprian said Si quis if any man Thirdly the thing he spake of was that some were said to offer water alone in our Lordes supper and not wine withal Now saith he if any before our time haue vsed to offer water and not wine mingled with water wel he may be pardoned by our Lordes mercie but we that are admonished and instructed to offer our Lordes chalice mingled with wine that is to say consisting not of water alone but of water and wine mingled together we caÌ„ not be pardoned except we mingle water with wine and so do offer our Lordes Chalice as he him selfe did offer it Nowe applie this geare Christian Reader to our new brethrens deedes Do they offer our Lordes Chalice at al Or do they graunt that our Lord in his Supper offered it Do they mingle water with wine at the time of consecrating the mysteries If they do neither of both what folie yea what madnesse was it for M. Iewel to bring foorth these wordes of S. Cyprian thereby to accuse him selfe and his owne Communion as not obseruing that whiche our Lorde commaunded to be obâ—â—rued It is a worlde to see how these men applye the witnesses of
make vs one Pope who is neither Priestes nor laie maÌ„nes sonne nor any maÌ„nes sonne at al. What a maruelous Prophet then was M. Iewels Damasus that could thus prophecie of so many Popes so long to come after his death and tel who should be their fathers so many yeres before their great GraÌ„dfathers were borne If for some excuse you say that this much you found in Gratian Distinct 56. it caÌ„ not helpe you The printed Gratian hath neither this forme of wordes nor this order of names nor so many Popes names by three For he hameth not Iohn 10. nor Iohn 15. nor Adrian 2. So that you must take it vpon you your selfe and beare the shame of it And what if the book of Gratian had it as you haue alleged Doo you not know that such thinges in Gratian be of no authoritie sometimes which be rehersed vnder this worde Palea Palea Palea good Reader is asmuche to say as Chaffe and where so euer this word Palea Chaffe is put in Gratian by the same it is signified as some doo iudge that the saying immediatly folowing is with litle iudgement infarced and that it is litle worth as Chaffe is litle worth in coÌ„parison of cleane wheate Such Chaffe and vaine fables M. Iewel is dryuen to take holde of to mainteine his brothers filthinesse for lacke of better stuffe And were it true that these Popes or some of them whose names be founde here in Gratians Chaffe were Priestes sonnes yet had he benne a true dealer in this cause he should not so vniustly haue conceeled what the Glose saith in the same place specially seing that he is so wel acquainted with the Glose and furnisheth his great booke specially and aboue al other Doctours with the stuffe of the Glose Thus there we finde Distinct 56. in Glossa Omnia ista exempla intellige de ijs qui in Laicali statu vel minoribus ordinibus orationibus parentum suscepti sunt quando suis parentibus licebat vti vxoribus suis Vnderstande thou al these examples of them that were receiued at Goddes hande by the prayers of their fathers being in the state of laie menne or in the lesser Orders when their fathers might lawfully vse their wiues Thus for any thing you haue brought hitherto is your Great Poste of Priestes Marriages thwited to a pudding pricke As for that whiche after al this you pretende to allege out of AEneas Syluius AEneas Syluius whom you cal Pope Pius whereas at the time when he wrote De gestis Concilij Basiliensis he was neither Pope nor Pius and out of Polydorus Vergilius Polydorus Vergil the late Prebendarie of Poules in London whom in the Chronicles you reporte falsly and laste of al out of fabling Fabian Fabian the late Merchant of London a man of smal learning and of as litle authoritie in these pointes though a special fauourer of your side as it is tolde and therefore the readier to reporte vntruth I am sure menne of meane knowledge wil litle esteme and I accompt it not worth the answering Make the best you can of it thereby perhaps or by some part of it ye may proue that of Married menne some were made Bishops which as I haue oftentimes tolde you we denie not but that Bishoppes or Priestes were euer in any wel ordered Churche permitted to marrie you shal neuer be hable to proue Now that you haue laid your two Principles as you cal them let vs see how substancially you defende your foure pointes aboue mencioned And first that it is lawful to marry after the Vowe of Chastitie and after holy Orders taken shewe vs by what learning or authoritie ye proue it Iewel First of al his obiection of Vovves nothing toucheth the Clergie of England For it is knovven and confessed that the Priestes of England vvere neuer Vâ—taries Yet for further ansvver vve graunte it is reason and conuenient that vvho so hath made a Vovve vnto God should keepe his promise Cyril in Leuitic Lib. 3. Cyrillus saith Si castitatem promiserit seruarâ— non poterit pronunciet peccatum suum If he haue promised 〈…〉 vvovved Chastitie and can not keepe it let him pronounce and confesse his Sinne. Harding How long wil you go about the bush as they say when come you to the purpose These bye matters not touched in my ConfutatioÌ„ haue made your booke great but the same geue euidence that you put more truste in multitude of wordes then in substance of matter If ye had the cleare truthe on your side what needed so many wordes One plaine sentence might haue better serued you That you wander not abroad here once againe I cal you home and require you to leaue your delaies and answer to the very point or to confesse your errour Remember my wordes of the Confutation be these It is not lawful for them to marrie Confutat fol. 73. b. which either haue by deliberate vowe dedicated al manner their chastitie vnto God or haue receiued holy Order Ouer against these my wordes you haue placed in the margent of your booke this note with your starre Defence pag. 163. Vntruthes two together as better appeareth by the Answeare By which you charge my saying with two Vntruthes Of such notes your booke hath great stoare But God be thanked the world seeth you are ryfer of vpbraidinges and sclaunders then of substantial proufes Nowe by your note you haue bounde your selfe to shewe vs that it is lawful to marrie after the Vowe of Chastitie likewise also after the holy Orders taken Before you came to proue either of these two pointes you tel vs that the Priestes of England were neuer Votaries that is to say that they neuer made Vow of single life and chastitie whereby to binde them selues not to marrie Neuer is a long daie M. Iewel Wel be it as it is If they be not Votaries they may marrie say you But answer directly to the point I pray you M. Ievvel ful coldly maketh that but reasonable and coÌ„uenieÌ„t that is necessary May they marrie who haue vowed chastitie Say yea or nay VVee graunte say you it is reason and conuenient that who so hath made a Vowe vnto God should keepe his promise This is somewhat though it be coldely spoken But yet you must come nearer vnto the point You speake generally and faintly We speake not of a Vowe or promise in general If a man make a promise to an other man it is reason and conuenient that he keepe it But how saie you to the vow of chastitie deliberatly made of man or woman to God Is it in any wise necessary to perfourme it or no If it be necessary why speake ye so coldly it is reason and conuenient What meane you by your reason and conuenience Is it any more but that if a Moncke or a Frier feele him selfe moued with luste he shal by and by take a woman vnder pretense of Wedlocke and so
of Christes flesh the onely meane of Resurrection to life And therefore your long talke is to no purpose which you vtter in this place They shal liue by the spirite of Christe who gaue them Faith and Charitie But doth not therefore S. Iohn speake also of real eating as though one effecte may not be wrought by diuers meanes concurring thereunto Ego saith Cyrillus id est Cyrill in Iohā li. 4. cap. 15. corpus meū quod comedetur resuscitabo eū I wil raise him that is to say my body which shal be eaten shal raise him Thus you see plainely that touching this point no lesse Clerke then Cyrillus teacheth the same that I said which you haue vniustly and rashly controlled as you haue done the reste of the Catholike Doctrine That matters of faithe and ecclesiastical causes are not to be iudged by the Ciuile Magistrate The. 14. Chapter Iewel Pag. 637. That a Prince or magistrate maie not lavvfully calae Prieste before him to his ovvne seate of Iudgement or that many Catholique and godly Princes haue not so done and done it lavvfully it is most vntrue Harding I haue tolde you M. Iewel Confut. Fol. 299. ae that the duetie of Ciuil Princes consisteth in Ciuil maters and euer said that Bishoppes ought to be obedient to Princes in suche cases whither so euer they cal them And if they make any temporal Decree the Bishoppe who hath temporal goodes vnder the Prince must obey without grudge Confut. Fol. 302. ae or gaine saying so farre as the Decree standeth with the honour of God But that in Ecclesiastical causes and maters of Faith mere temporal Princes haue any authoritie of them selues to cal Bishoppes and Priestes to their Seates of Iudgement or euer did it lawfully we vtterly denie Ambrosius lib. 5. Epist 32. Priestes only ought to be iudges ouer Priestes by Theosius S. Ambrose said to the Emperour Valentinian Nec quisquà m contumacem iudicare me debet quum hoc asseram quod augustae memoriae patertuus non solùm sermone respondit sed etiam legibus suis sanxit in causa fidei vel ecclesiastici alicuius ordinis eum iudicare debere qui nec munere impar sit nec iure dissimilis Haec enim verba Rescripti sunt Hoc est Sacerdotes de Sacerdotibus voluit iudicare Quinetiam si aliâs quoque arguerelar Episcopus morum esset examinanda causa etiam hanc voluit ad Episcopule iudicium pertinere Neither any man ought to iudge me as stubborne seing I affirme that whiche your father of most renoumed memorie not onely answered in worde but also established by his lawes that in a case of faith or any ecclesiastical order he ought to be iudge that is neither vnequal in office nor vnlike in right or authoritie For these are the wordes of the Rescripte That is he would Priestes to be iudges of Priestes And also if otherwise a Bishop were reproued and a cause concerning behauiour and manners were to be examined he would this cause of manners also to apperteine to the Bishoppes iudgement Vpon these wordes of Theodosius alleged and allowed by S. Ambrose An argument prouing that a Ciuile Magistrat maie not be iudge oner Priestes in causes ecclesiastical and matters of Faith thus I reason with you M. Iewel He can not be iudge of Bishoppes and Priestes nor cal them to his seate of Iudgement in Ecclesiastical causes and maters of Faithe that is vnequal in office or vnlike in right and authoritie But the Prince is vnequal to the Bishop in office and vnlike vnto him in right and authoritie For he hath no right nor authoritie to sacrifice to preache to binde to loose to excommunicate and minister Sacramentes Therefore the Prince can not be iudge of Bishoppes and Priestes nor cal them to his seate of Iudgement in any ecclesiastical cause or mater of Faith Againe no man hath authoritie ouer his superiour But the Bishop in maters of Faithe and Ecclesiastical causes is superiour to euery Prince Therefore in those causes the Prince hath no authoritie ouer the Bishop And if he haue no authoritie ouer him he can not cal him to his seate of iudgement Furthermore were it true that the Prince were equal with the Bishop in Ecclesiastical causes and matters of faith yet could he not cal him to his seate of iudgement ff ad S. Trebel L. ille § Tēpestiuum quia par in parem non habet potestatem bicause the equal hath no authoritie or power ouer his equal But to see M. Iewels arte in facing out this mater let vs consider the authorities that he bringeth to proue his purpose And bicause he blaseth this saying in the toppe of his margent with great letters VVhat it is to be conuēted before a Magistrate Spiegelius in verbo conuenire A Bishop conuented before the Magistrate let vs first define what it is to be conuented before a Magistrate The lawiers saie Conuenire est aliquem in ius vocare To conuent a man is to cal him into the lawe and so Conueniri coram magistratu est in ius vocari à magistratu to be conuented before a magistrate is to be called into the lawe by the magistrate To cal a man into the lawe is a iudicial acte proceding of superiour authoritie in him that is iudge both of the partie so called and also of the cause wherefore he is called As if the Maior of London would conuent any of the Citizens he must both haue iurisdiction ouer that Citizen and also authoritie to iudge in that cause for whiche the Citizen shal be conuented But no ciuil magistrate hath authoritie by vertue of his temporal office to be iudge our Bishoppes in ecclesiastical causes as it is before proued and shal hereafter appeare Therefore no temporal magistrate can conuent any Bishoppe or Priest before him in any Ecclesiastical cause But let vs heare M. Iewel Cod. de Episcopis et clericis L. Nullus Iewel Pag. 637. Iustinian the Emperour him selfe vvho of al others most enlarged the Churches priuileges saith thus Nullus Episcopus inuitus ad ciuilem vel militarem iudicem in qualibet causa producatum vel exhibeatur nisi princeps iubeat Let no Bishop be brought or presented against his vvil before the captaine or Ciuil Iudge vvhat so euer the cause be onlesse the Prince shal so commaunde it Harding Seing Iustinian as you saie of al others did most enlarge the Churches Priuileges is it likely that he would most of al others breake them And whereas he made a lawe Authent 83. Coll. 6. vt Clerici apud proprios Episcopos that Clerici apud proprios Episcopos conueniantur primùm Clerkes shoulde be conuented first before their owne Bishoppes in causa pecuniaria in a money mater and afterwarde before the Ciuil Magistrate if either for the nature of the cause or for some other difficultie the Bishop could not ende it yet he
errour whiche he helde as his priuate opinion was condemned at the sounde of trompettes in presence of that king as Gerson writeth but that was done before he was Pope Iewel 639. Your ovvne Glose saith Dist 63. In Synod in Glos Papa potest dare potestatem Imperatori vt deponat ipsum sese illi in omnibus subijcere The Pope maie geue the Emperour povver to depose him selfe and maie in al thinges submitte him selfe vnto him Harding Be it that our Glose saith so M. Iewel your Glose I might rather saie For the Gloser seemeth to be your chiefe Doctour There was neuer Diuine that serued him selfe with the stuffe of the Glose so muche as you doo What inferre you vpon it If you can like a good Logician frame this argument vppon that Glose The Pope maie geue the Emperour authoritie to depose him selfe Ergo the Pope maie be conuented before the Magistrate as one that through vertue of his temporal office is his superiour in Ecclesiastical causes let vs haue it in writing and we wil returne you the like with as good consequence and saie The Queene may geue anie of her Lordes and subiectes power to depose her from her roial estat and to transferre it to an other Ergo shee maie be conuented before that Lord and subiect of hers as one that hath authoritie to depose her of him selfe without commission and authoritie from her grace And if you finde fault with the sequele of this find fault with the sequele of you own For they are both like Dist 93. cap. vltim in Glossa The Law saith Ex alterius persona quis consequitur quod non habet ex sua A man getteth of an other-mannes person that which he hath not of his owne Wherefore the Emperour hauing authoritie of the Pope to depose him Extr. de off iudicis Deleg c. Sanè hath not that authoritie of him selfe or any his Imperial power but of the Pope And seing Iudex delegatus à Papa gerit vices Papae a Iudge delegated of the Pope occupieth the roome of the Pope the Emperour in this case shal not depose him as Emperour but as the Popes Vicegerent and Delegate Iewel Pag. 639. Franciscus Zarabella saith De schemate Concilio It is de Schismate pontificuÌ„ Papa accusari potest coram Imperatore de quolibâ—t crimine notorio Imperator requirere potest à Papa rationem fidei The Pope maie be accused before the Emperour of any notorious crime and the Emperour maie require the Pope to yelde an accompte of his faith Harding Neither Franciscus Zarabella nor Franciscus Zabarella for so is his true name saith as you reporte that Papa potest accusari coram Imperatore de quolibet crimine notorio M. Ievvel falsifieth his Doctor by addition of his ovvne to helpe his mater The Pope maie be accused before the Emperour of any notorious crime Those wordes coram Imperatore before the Emperour are of your owne interlacing and be not in the Authour You ought to be ashamed so fouly to corrupte your authours and deceiue the people Againe Zabarella sayth not Imperator requirere potest à Papa rationem fidei the Emperour may require the Pope to yeelde an accompte of his faieth They are your woordes Maister Iewel That whiche Zabarella saith is thus Zabarella made to saie What pleaseth M. Ievvel Si Papa est de haeresi suspectus potest Imperator ab eo exigere vt indiret quid sentiat de fide that is if the Pope be suspected of heresie the Emperour may require of him that he declare what he thinketh of the Faith Nowe sir to require a man to yeelde an accompte of his Faith and to require him to declare what he thinketh are twoo diuerse thinges For the one can not be donne but by Superiour authoritie the other by waie of friendship and common charitie But as for Superiour authoritie In vvhat case of necessitie the Emperour may entermedle vvith matters of Faith and religion after the minde of Zabarella Zabarella alloweth the Emperour none ouer the Pope nor graunteth that he maie intermedle in Ecclesiastical causes but in an extreme necessitie to witte if there were two Popes at one time as there were when he wrote this Treatie whence you fetche your falsified sentences and neither would yeelde vnto the other nor the Cardinalles take order for the quiet gouernemente of the Churche in procuring a General Councel and if he saw the Antipape to geue ouer his vsurped Authoritie then the Emperour whose duetie is to defende the Catholique Faithe maie intermedle in Ecclesiastical causes saith Zabarella His wordes are these Cùmergo deficit Papa vel Cardinales Francis Zabarella de Schismate pontificuÌ„ qui subrogantur Papae in Congregatione Concilij vt dictum est in praecedenti quaestione ad ipsum Imperatorem qui pars post praedictos est praecipua Concilij spectat Congregatio Nec quenquam moueat quòd Imperator est Laicus vt ex hoc putet esse inconueniens quòd se intromittat de clericis Non enim semper prohibetur iudicare de clericis sed tunc prohibetur quando non subest ratio specialis Nam propter specialem rationem permittitur vt ratione feudi Hoc autem casu subest ratio specialis imo specialissima ne fides Catholica ruat quod nimium periclitatur diu permittendo pluralitatem in summo Pontificatu In quo maximè est Imperatoris praecipuam habet potestatem Nam permittere plures in Papatu est offendere illum fidei articulum vnam sanctam Catholicam c. Therefore when the Pope faileth or the Cardinalles who are nexte in roome vnto the Pope substituted to the Pope in assembling of a CouÌ„cel as it was said in the nexte question before the assembling of a Councel apperteineth vnto the Emperour who after the Pope and the Cardinalles is the chiefe parte Neither it ought to moue any man to thinke it inconuenient that the Emperour in that he is a laie man should intermedle with maters belonging to clerkes For he is not alwaies inhibited to iudge of Clerkes But then he is forbidden when there is no special cause For it is permitted for some special reason as in consideration of fealtie And in this cause there is a special yea a most special reason that the Catholique Faith come not to ruine bicause it is in great danger by long suffering of pluralitie in the Popedome that is to say of moe Popes then one In which the Emperour is the chiefe doer and he hath the chief power For to permitte many Popes in the Popedome is to offende that article of the Faith I beleeue one holy Catholique and Apostolike Churche By this and the whole discourse that Zabarella your authour maketh there it appeareth M. Iewel that the Emperour hath not the authoritie you pretende but in that case of extreme necessitie And by your aduocate in the Lawe if he had not
vnto a man without any formal writinges according to the Ciuil Lawes and is taken with intent and affection of marriage This woman the intent and affection maketh a wife but the lawe that is to saie the Ciuil lawe nameth her a Concubine Yea the Canons also doo name such a Woman a Concubine sometimes and not a wife vntil the Marriage be solemnized not that shee is a whoore but that with the reprocheful name of a Concubine as it were with a secrete rebuke suche personnes be driuen to solemnize and publish their marriage in the face of the Church Nowe let it be iudged by the Learned what you are worthy to haue for dissembling this much Gratian had alleged certaine Canons Dist 33. c. Laici c. Fin. wherein mention was made that they might continue in holy Orders and minister who before they were made Priestes had had Concubines In this sentence therefore that now I translated he expoundeth how the worde Concubine is to be taken in those Canons asmuche to faie for a wife taken priuately without publique Solemnization For saith he the Ciuil law taketh not for a wife but nameth a Concubine whiche is a baser and a more reprocheful name her which a man taketh and vseth for his wife without any solemne and publike instrument made concerning the dowrie and other matters accustomed to be agreed vpon betwen the man and wife And this with diuers other solemnities to take away occasion of strife 30. q. 5. c. ◠3. 4. and sinne was politikely ordeined by the Ciuil Lawe and Canon also But assoone as that writing was made and publique Solemnite perfourmed the children borne before were accompted lawfully borne and the Concubine to haue ben a wife from the beginning And this woman the lawe nameth in the meane time a Concubine § Nec non Iustin de nuptijs Concil Toletan 1. cap. 17. and not a whoore And Gratian to proue this exposition to be true and good alleged the Councel of Toledo saying De hac dicitur in Concilio Toletano Is qui non habet c. Of this Woman it is said in the Councel of Toledo he that hath not a wife but hath a Concubine for a wife let him not be put backe from the Communion Whiche wordes you bring to proue that the Churche doth allowe Concubines Wherein it is plaine that the worde Concubine is taken for a wife taken priuately and not openly married with due solemnitie in the face of the Churche yet kepte in bed and at burde as a wife with intent of wedlocke which was in olde time very common in Spaine and yet is in some places And the Councel there holden doth not repelle from the Communion those that haue suche wemen in that sorte Whereas if the worde Concubine signified a whoore in that Canon of the Councel of Toledo as it doth most commonly in other places the Councel would not haue wincked at that sinne nor suffered suche personnes to comme vnto the Communion but would haue repelled them Dist 56. Toto titulo ext le filijs presbyt 3. Reg. 12 as by many other Decrees the Church doth and also repelleth their children and bastard broode from the holy order of Priesthoode whereunto ye admitt◠the rascalles and the outcastes of al the people to further your carnal Doctrine as Ieroboam admitted the like to bring the people of Israel to Apostasie and Idolatrie Dist 34. Audite Aug. li. 50 homiliarū homi 49. That the Church alloweth not Concubines taken in the worse sense euen in the same place it is witnessed by S. Augustine alleged in the Decrees in whom thus we finde Concubinas habere non licet vobis si non habetis vxores tamen non licet vobis habere Concubinas quas postea dimittatis vt ducatis vxores tantò magis damnatio erit vobis si volueritis habere vxores Concubinas It is not lawful for you to haue Concubines Albeit ye haue no wiues yet it is not lawful for you to haue such Concucubines as which afterward ye maie put away to the ende to take wiues so muche the greater shal be your dānation if ye wil haue both wiues and Concubines And this signification of Concubina is not strange that when a man mindeth to marrie a woman she be called a Concubine whiche in deede is a true wife before God though she be not knowen so to be in the publique fame of the people til the marriage be solemnized A concūbine is a vvife secretly takē vvith out solēnitie of marriage It maie please you to looke on your brother Matthias Flacius Illyricus in his booke entitled Clauis Scripturae in the word Concubina And you shal find the word takē in this sense and the same proued by diuers authorities Ioannes de Turre Cremata a man right wel learned vpon the Chapter Omnibus before alleged saith thus Abraham praeter Saram habuit Agar ancillam vxorem sic enim dicitur Genes 16. Dedit Sara ancillam viro in vxorem Suam post mortem verò Sarae accepit Abraham Ceturam vxorem vt legitur Gen. 25. Et quia istae non fuerunt acceptae cum illa solennitate quamuis essent vxores affectu in veritate dictae tamen sunt Concubinae vt Genesis 25. vbi dicitur dedit Abraham cuncta quae possidebat Isaac filijs verò Concubinarum munera In libro etiam Iudicum idem habetur videlicet quòd vxor vocetur Concubina vt patet Iudic. 19. c. Abraham beside Sara had Agar to wife that was his wiues maide seruaunt for so it is said in the 16. Chapter of Genesis Sara gaue her maide vnto her husband to be his wife And after the death of Sara Abraham tooke Cetura to be his wife as we reade in Genesis the 25. chapter And bicause these wemen were not taken with that solemnitie as the wiues were although they were wiues in affection and in truth yet were they called Concubines as in Genesis 25. Chapter where it is said Abraham gaue al the thinges which he possessed to Isaac but to the sonnes of his Concubines he gaue giftes The same is also to be founde in the booke of the Iudges that a wife is called a Concubine as it appeareth Iudges 19. chapter c. This therefore proueth not your sclaunder M. Iewel wherewith you burthen the Canonistes as defending Simple Fornication to be no sinne Let vs see whether your other stuffe be any better to that purpose Constit Othonis Boni decō cubinis clerico remonendis licet ad pro sugandū in glossa In eadem glossa Iewel Pag. 360. Likevvise it is noted in the Glose vpon the constitutions of Otho Bonus Videtur quòd crimē meretricij Ecclesia sub dissimulatione trasire debeat It semeth that the Church ought to passe ouer the crime of vvhooredom vnder dissimulatiō and not to see it In vvhich Glose ye shal finde these vvordes Si
Episcopus But whether he beareth that name of the one or of the other it maketh no great matter If it be so it remaineth that you can tel vs in what parte of the worlde whether in Asia in Aphrica or in Europa or in the new founde landes there be any place of that name I thinke you must be faine to looke ouer al the Geographical tables and bookes you haue and borrowe some of your felowes too and put on your spectales of the best sight and yet for al that I warrant you not finde it except it be in Vtopia Wel M. Iewel that you maie vnderstande that the more occasion you geue me to seeke the more I finde matter of Vntruthe and ignorance to charge you withal I tel you in deede that you haue named Ioannes Camotensis in steede of Ioannes Carnotensis if you haue respecte to his Bishoprike Ioannes Camotensis must be Ioānes Sarisburiensis vvho vvas Bishop of Chartres in France and thereof in Latine called Carnotensis Defence pag. 613. But if you wil haue his Countrie signified then must you cal him Ioannes Salesberiensis or Sarisburiensis choose whether as you haue done Pag. 132. I might saie that this Ioannes Sarisburiensis was a Bishop in al respectes farre better to vse your owne wordes not then Leontius Hippolytus or Clemens as it liketh you to skoffe at those learned and blessed Bishoppes but then Iohn Iewel of Sarisburie if you naming your selfe Iohn of Sarisburie could iustly be accompted any Bishop at al. But betwen a Bishop and no Bishop in this behalfe there can be no comparison This is not the first time that you haue alleged your witnesses by a blinde gheasse hearesaie or reporte not hauing seene their bookes nor knowing what the Authours were You can saie much by rote and prou◠litle by skil as in many other places but here moste euidently it appeareth For if you had knowen that your Ioannes Camotensis is the selfe same Ioannes Sarisburiensis otherwise named Carnotensis for that he was in his time Bishop of Chartres in Fraunce Pag. 132. named Carnotum in Latine whiche you haue alleged before out of his woorke entitled Polycraticon but neuer declaring out of what booke thereof being eight bookes in the whole or what Chapter bicause yee neuer readde the place in the Authour him selfe but receiued it by the waie of almes of frier Bale Flacius Illyricus or some suche other if I saie you had knowen so muche as you might if you had taken the paine to peruse the Polycration your selfe you would neuer haue made so muche a doo about so smal a matter Now for your better instruction and fuller satisfaction maie it please you to vnderstand that he whiche is misnamed in Epitome Bibliothecae Gesneri Ioannes Camotensis is in Partitionibus eiusdem Gesneri tituli 5. fol. 95. rightly called Ioannes Carnotensis And that your Ioannes Camotensis is by you blindly mistaken for Ioannes Carnotensis it euidently appeareth by the sentences alleged by your owne Necromantical Doctor Cornelius Agrippa and by an other of the Spritish sort of your gospel Paulus Scalichius in his railing Libel De Choraea Monachorum Paul Scalichius and by lying Illyricus in Catalogo testium veritatis which are adscribed by Baudy Bale 2. Centur. Scriptorum Britanniae pag. 212. too Ioannes Carnotensis out of his Polycraticon And in deed they are there to be founde albeit not to that purpose that al the packe of your holy brethren haue vntruely alleged them for And therefore neuer a one of you al hath quoted either number of the booke or Chapter where any of those sentences are to be founde lest your falsehed might haue benne espied and that by reading the whole discourse of the places your euil purpose should haue benne nothing furthered but much hindred But if it wil please either you or the Reader to peruse the 16. chapter of the 5. booke and the 24. of the 6. booke of the sayd Polycraticon you for your parte shal haue occasion to vnderstand your errour and folie and the Reader for his parte not to be deceiued with your blinde reporte Pag. 51. Cusanus sovvly and ignorantly belied of M. Iew. You beare your Reader in hand pag. 51. that Nicolaus Cusanus wrote a booke entituled de Auctoritate Ecclesiae Concilij supra contra Scripturam Of the Authoritie of the Churche and Councel aboue and against the Scripture And as though you had seene the booke and wel perused it you referre your Reader thereunto in 14. mo places of this your pretensed Defence as it shal appeare to him A false forged booke odiously attributed by M. Ievv to Cardinal Cusanus in xv Sundri◠places that wil take the paines to turne to these pages here truely quoted 53. 55. 78. 157. 331. 438. 439. 474. 558. 593. 665. 674. 704. 724. Now M. Iewel notwithstanding al these quotations of yours if you be hable to shewe vs any booke of Cusanus so entituled either in print or in autenticke written hande I wil saie that you wil proue your selfe a truer man then euer I tooke you to be But bicause this maie litle moue you I wil more adde on the contrary side if you be not hable to shewe the same after so many allegations out thereof it wil consequently folowe that you are a shamelesse man I might saie a false harlot If a man were disposed to dally with you in a matter most certaine as you vse to doo with others when you thinke you haue gotten any smal shadowe of some counterfeit aduantage for an vndoubted example whereof I referre the readers to the page 414. he might perchaunce dash you quite out of countenance and deface you for euer yea euen before your frendes and the flattering vpholders of your dooinges which would greeue you at the harte Now might one chalenge you and saie M. Iewel if you be hable to shew any booke or halfe booke oration or epistle or any litle pamphlet whereunto Cusanus hath geuen this title then wil the Catholiques graunt you more then euer you were hable to gete yet at their handes If you haue al the bookes in your studie either of your owne or of other menne that you allege then bring the booke with this title forth and you shal discharge your selfe of a most impudent lie and sclaunder And if you be hable so to doo then I praie you let it be proclaimed by you with your booke in your hand at Powles crosse as you haue done at other times to your worship forsooth that al the worlde maie beare witnesse thereof Verely M. Iewel it appeareth that you haue readde more then you vnderstand or at least then you haue liste to vnderstand and yet you allege more then euer you readde in the bookes whereunto you referre vs as it maie wel be proued by this present example and many other the like You maie beshrewe him to whom you gaue so light credite herein Couet not praise by