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A44015 Stigmai ageĊmetrias, agroichias, antipoliteas, amatheias, or, Markes of the absurd geometry, rural language, Scottish church-politicks, and barbarismes of John Wallis professor of geometry and doctor of divinity by Thomas Hobbes. Hobbes, Thomas, 1588-1679. 1657 (1657) Wing H2261; ESTC R28097 39,934 36

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any obstacle to the salvation of women You might aswel have translated the first verse of Rom. 5. in this manner Being then justified by fait● ●e have pea●e with God notwithstanding our Lord Jesus Christ I let pass your n●t ●●nding in {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} as good a Gra●arian as you are a Nominative case to {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} If you had remembred the place 1. Pet. Chap. 3. verse 20. {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} that is They were saved in the wa●●rs you would have thought your construstion justified then very well but you h●d been deceived for {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} does not there signifie causam nor ablationem impedimenti but tran●…m not cause or removing an impediment but passage Being come thu●●●r I found a friend that hath eased me of this dispute for he shewed me a letter written to himself from a learned man that hath out of very good Authors collected enough to decide all the Grammatical questions betwen you and me both Greek and Latin He would not let me know his na●e nor any thing of him but only this that he had better ornaments then to be willing to go clad abroad in the habit of a Grammarian But he gave me leave to make use of so much of the letter as I thought fit in this dispute Which I have done and have added it to the end of this writing But before I come to that you must not take it ill though I have done with your School Discipline if I ex●mine a little some other of your printed writings as you have examined mine for neither you in Geometry nor such as you in Church politicks can not expect to publish any unholesome doctrine without some Antidotes from me as long as I can hold a pen But why did you answer nothing to my sixth Lesson because you say it concerned your Colle●gue onely No Sir It concerned you also and chiefly For I have not heard that your Colleague holdeth those dangerous principies which I take notice of in you In my sixth Lesson page 62. upon the occasion of these words not his but yours Perhaps you t●ke the whol● History of the fall of Adam for a fable which is no wonder seeing you say the rules of honouring and worshiping of God are to be taken form the laws In answer to which I said thus You that take so hainously tha● I would have the rule of Gods worship in a Christian Common-wealth to be taken from the Laws tell me from whom you would have th●m taken From your selfe Why so more then from me From the Bishops Right if the Supreme power of the Common-wealth will have it so if not why from them rather then from me From a Consistory of Pres●yt●rs themselves or joyned with Lay-Elders whom they may sway as they please Good If the supream Governour of the Common-wealth will have it so If not why fr●m them rather then from me or from any man else They are wiser and learneder then I It may be so but it ha● n●t yet appeared Howsoever let that be granted Is ●h●re any man so very a fool a● to subje●● himself to the rules of other men in those things which do so neerly concern himself for the title they assume of being wise and learne● unlesse they also have the sword which must portect them But it seems you understand the sword as comprehended If so Do not you then r●ceive the rules of Gods worship from the Civil Power Yes doubtlesse and you would expect if your Consistory had that sword that no man should dare to ex●rcise or teach any rules concerning Gods worship which were not by you allowed This will be thought strong arguing if you do not answer it But the truth is you could say nothing against it without too plainly discove●ing your disaffection to the Goverme●t And yet you have discovered it pretty well in your second Thesis maintained in the Act at Oxford 1654 and since by your self published This Thesis I shall speak briefly to Scotch-Church Politicks You define Ministers of the Gospel to be those to whom the preaching of the Gospel by their o●fice is injoyned by Christ Pray you first what do you mean by saying preaching ex Offici● is enjoyned by Christ Are they Preachers ●x Officio and afterwards enjoyned to Preach Ex Officio adds nothing to the definition but a man may ●asily see your purpose to disjoyn your self from the State by inserting i● Secondly I desire to know in what manner you will be able out of this d●●inition to prove your self a Minister Did Christ hi●self immediately enjoyn you to preach or give you orders No Who then some Bishop or Minister or Ministers Yes by what Authority Are you sure they had Authority immediately from Christ no How then ar● you sure but that they might have none At least some of them through whom your Authority is derived might have none And therefore if you run b●ck for your Authority towards the Apostles times but a matter of sixscore years you will ●inde your Authority derived from the Pope which words have a ●ound very unlike to the voice of the Laws of England And yet the Pope will not own you There 's no man doubts but that you hold that your Office comes to you by successive impo●ition o● hands ●rom the time of the Apostles Which opinion in those gentle terms passeth well enough But to say you derive your Authority from thence not through the Authority of the Soveraign power civill is too rude to be endured in a state that would live in peace In a word you can never prove you are a Minister but by the Supream Autho●ity of the Common-wealth Why then do you not put some such clause into your definition As thus Ministers of the Gospel are those to whom the preaching of the Gospel is enjoyned by the Soveraign power in the name of Christ What harm is there in this definition saving onely it crosses the ambition of many men that hold your p●inciples Then you d●●ine the power of a Minister thus The power of a Minister is that which belongeth to a Minister of the Gospel in vertue of the Office he holds in as much as he holds a publick Station and is distinguished from private Christians Such as is the power of preaching the Gospel administring the Sacrament the use of Eccles●astical censure● and Ord●ining of Ministers c. Again how wil you prove out of this definition that you or any man ●lse hath the power of a Minister i● it be not given him by him that is the Soveraign o● the Common-wealth For seeing as I have now proved it is from him that you must d●rive your Ministery you can have no oth●r power then that which is limited in y●ur Orders ●or ●ha● neithe● longer then he thinks fit For if he give it you for the instruction of his