I gather that Victor out of his elation pride first chalenged that Primacy to him ouer all churches which your Popes at this day still vsurp and retaine This Pope Victor being one of those who couet ' aiem ' aristcucin cai ' yperochòn ' émmenai ' allon to aduance himselfe as the best and cheifest aboue all other Bishops CARD BELLARM. You do much disaduantage your selfe in alleadging this example considering the time wherein Victor liued to wit in the yeare 198. An age during the which your selfe hath hertofore confessed that the church â—f Rome did suffer no alteration in her Religion Now M. Doctour wheras you cast an aspersion of pride vpon this most ancient and reuerend Pope I wish you take heede that you do not incurre the censure passed vpon Diogenes who is said to haue reprooued Plato his pride with greater pride D. WHITAKERS It is certaine that many churches and Fathrs were offended with Victors proceeding therein and particulerly that ancient and pious Father Irenaeus which is an infallible argument of Victors vsurpation For if Victor had true power to excommunicate the churches of Asia as it is graunted he actually had why should Irenaeus and those churches be offended or reprehend him for putting onely in execution his lawfull Authority CARD BELLARM. You must call to minde here M. Doctour the reason why Victor did excommunicate the Churches of Asia which was because the Bishops of Asia were vnwilling to conforme themselues to the Church of Rome in keeping of Easter day to wit to keepe it onely vpon Sunday whereas they would needs continue the keeping of it vpon the 14. of the Moone according to the custome of the Iewes Now for this their reluctation herein against the Church of Christ Victor did excommunicate them But when this seemed as being but a Ceremony and for a time tollerated through the weaknes of the Iewes in the iudgment of diuers too smal an occasion to excommunicate and cut off so many famous Churches therfore Victor was censured by diuers to be ouer seuere in prosecuting with so great a punishment so smal a seeming fault From which their thus censuring of Victor we may rather gather his Primacy aboue other Churches then otherwise and the reason hereof is because we do not finde any of the sayd Bishops to charge Victor with any Innouation in vnduely assuming to himselfe this Authority ouer other Churches which doubtlesly they would haue done if Victor had first taken this priuiledge to himselfe they being so iustly prouoked thereto but they did onely rebuke as is sayd his ouermuch rigid seuerity in punishing as they thought so rigorously so smal a disobedience in the Bishops of Asia Yea which is more that Irenaeus who was most forward in taxinge Victor with his sharp proceeding ascribeth to Victor a soueraignety ouer all Churches For besides that Irenaeâ—s is reprehended by the Centurists for acknow ledging the Primacy of the Roman Sea Eusebius thus writeth of Irenaeus touching this point Irenaeus admonisheth Victor by letters that he would not for the obseruation of a Tradition so long vsed quite cut of so many Churches from the body of the Vniuersall Church Thus Eusebius Now I here demand why should Irenaens dissuade Victor from excoÌ„municating those Churches but that he was persuaded that Victor had power to excommunicate them And thus farre of this instance which may be of force perhaps to prooue that Victor was ouer seuere but not that he had not true power ouer other Churches for which point it is by you M. Doctour vrged But I pray you passe to other instances onely here by the way I will put you in minde that careles and obstinate Christians and such it well may be some of those Asian Christians were haue in some respect small reason to feare the excommunication of the Pope since these men through such their disobediency do commonly excommunicate themselues D. WHITAKERS It is cleare that Zozimus Bonifacius and Celestinus all Bishops of Rome did chalenge superiority ouer other Bishops by forging of a Canon of the Nicene Councell Which proceeding manifesteth the then vsurped Authority of those Popes to be contrary to the institution of Christ Thus these your Popes thirsted after all domination and Power though at other times rhey made shew by styling theÌ„selues Serui Seruorum and by their other affected Humility to contemne all honours and eminency Cur vultis esse in mundo qui extra mundum estis CARD BELLARM. It is most strange to see how inconsiderately you proceed For here you say that these Popes first introduced this innouatios of the Superiority of the Bishop of Rome ouer other Churches and immediatly afore and with all one breath you ascribe the beginning thereof to Victor who liued two hundred yeares before any of these three Popes If these later Popes brought it in then Victor did not If Victor did begin it then those Popes could not See how irreconciliable these your two Assertions are From the actions of all which Popes you can truely gather that they onely practised an Authority which the Church of Rome euer had but not that they assumed any soueraignty to them which poynt is only in q 〈…〉 estion which afore that Church had not D. WHITAKERS M. D. Fulke conspireth with me in alledging the foresaid examples and he was a man well conuersant in Ecclesiasticall Histories his words are these Zozimus Bonifacius Celestinus did challeng prerogatiue ouer the Bishop of Afrik by forging a false CanoÌ„ of the Nicene CouÌ„cel And this Doctours indgmenâ— I much pryze in matters of controuersyes CARD BELLARM. Both D. Fulke his iudgment how learned soeuer you repute him and your owne also must of necessity yeald to the truth herein seing the example of Victor afore infisted vpon by you doth vindicate and free these three later Popes from all innouation in this poynt And as touching the supposed forging of a Canon of the Nicene Councell for the erection of the Primacy of Rome It is most false for euen your owne wryters to wit Caluin himselfe and Peter Martir do mention the said Canon as truly made Only they say that the Popes did misalleadge this decree as made by the Councell of Nice which was made by the Councell of Sardis And so their Error admitting that they did erre consisteth only in mistaking by whether Councell the said Canon was decreed D. VVHITAKER What say you of Boniface the third It is certain that this Boniface the third was then the first that intituled the Roman Church to be caput omnium Ecclesiarum the Head of all Churches CARD BELLARM. M. Doctour you weary me by idly diuerberating the ayre with these impertinent Examples and force me to entertayne them with a fastidious neglect For do not the former Examples of Victor Zozimus Bonifacius the first of that name and Celestiuus all more ancient then this Boniface the third take away the weight
of you the second time for all the Protestants do not precisely consent herein how longe do you thinke that the Church of Rome did continue in her Verginall state and Purity without any stayne in her Faith D. WHITAKERS I thinke that during the first six hundred yeares after Christ the Church was pure florishing and inuiolably taught and defended the Fayth deliuered by the Apostles During all which ages the Church of Christ in respect of truth in Faith and Religion was as I may say in the full assent of the wheele And although to speake by resemblance there are found euen many irregularities in the regular motions of the Heauens yet I am fully perswaded that for the space of the first six hundred yeares no annomalous exorbitancies of errours or superstition did accompany the heauenly preaching of the Ghosple in the Church of Christ CARD BELLARM. M. Doctour indeed part of what you here say are your owne words in your booke against D. Sanders and you deale more liberally herein then diuers of your Breehren by affording a hundred and fifty yeares more to the true Church then most of them will allow Now you granting the purity of Faith to continue in the Church of Rome for the space of the first six hundred yeares after Christ do withall implicitly and inferentially grant that no change of Faith was made in that Church within the compasse of the afore mentioned 160. yeares seeing the said 160. yeares are included within the first six hundred yeares as being part of them But to proceed further you are here M. Doctour to call to minde what your selfe at other times no doubt at vnawares haue writen I do finde to instance only in some two or three points that you affirme that Victor who liued anno 160. after Christ was the first that exercised iurisdictō vpon forraine Churches That not Cyprian only who liued anno 240. to vse your owne words but almost all the most holy Fathers of that time were in errour touching the Doctrine of good works as thinking so to pay the paine due to sinne to satisfy Gods iustice Finally that Leo who was Pope anno 440. to speake in your owne dialect was a great Architect of the Antichristian kingdome Are not all these your assertions M. Doctour D. WHITTAKERS I cannot but acknowledge them for mine since they are extant to be read in my owne bookes loath I am to be so vnnaturall as to disauow or abandon any issue begotten on my owne brayne CARD BELLARM. Marke well then M. Doctour my deduction If the Chucrh of Rome remayned in her purity of Fayth without any change for the first six hundred yeares for your owne confessiō aboue expressed is that the Church of Christ so long continued a chast and intemerate Spouse And if as your owne penne hath left it written the doctrine of the Popes Supremacy was taught by Victor the first The doctrine of Merit of Works was mainteyned by Cyprian generally by other Fathers of that age and to be short if Leo were a great Architect of the kingdome of Antichrist you meaning of our present Roman Religion all which said Fathers to wit Cyprian Victor Leo and the rest did liue diuers ages before the sixt age or Century to what time you extēd the purity of the Faith of the Church of Rome doth it not then ineuitably result out of your owne Premisses if al this be true as you affirme it is that the doctrin of the Popes Supremacy the doctrine of merit of workes and our Catholicke Doctrine generally taught by Antichrist as you tearme the Pope were no innouations but the same pure doctrines which the Apostles first plāted in the Church of Rome Se how your felfe through your owne inaduertēcy hath fortified the truth of that doctrine which your selfe did intende to ouerthrow And thus farre to show that their neuer was made any chāg of Fayth in the Church of Rome prooued from the distribution diuision of those two different times which by the learned Protestants acknowledgments do contayne the Periods of the Church of Rome her continuance in the true Fayth of the Publicke and generall Profession of our now present Romane Fayth D. WHITTAKERS My L. Cardinall Whereas you haue produced seuerall testimonies from our owne learned Protestāts who teach that in the second third fourth age after Christ such such an Article of the Papists Religion had it beginning It seemeth in my iudgment that these their authorities do more preiudice then aduantage your cause Since such testimonies if so you will stand to them do shew a beginning though most anciēt of those doctrines after the Apostles deaths and consequently a change of Faith in the Church of Rome For if you will admit the authorities of the Protestants granting the antiquities of the present Romish Religion in those former times you are also by force of reason to admit their like authorities in saying that at such tymes and not before those Articles were first taught for seing both these points are deliuered by the Protestants in one the same sentence or testimony why should the one part thereof be vrged for true and the other reiected as false MICHAEAS M. Doctour Here with my L. Cardinall and your owne good licence I am to make bould to put in a word or two This your reply M. Doctour by way of inference may seeme to lessen the antiqurty of our ancient Iewish Law and therfore I hold my selfe obliged to discouer the weakenes therof though not out of desire to entertaine any contestation with you Grant then that some miscreants or Heathen Writers as Enemies to the Law of Moyses affirme that the Religion of the Iewes had it beginning in the tyme of Esdras for example This their testimony may iustly be alleaged to prooue that our Iewish Law was as auncient at least as Esdras but it cannot be alleadged to prooue that our Law tooke it first beginning at that time only and not before in the dayes of Moyses Therefore in the Authorities of this Nature produced from our Aduersaries writinges we are to distinguish and seuer that which the Aduersaries granteth in the behalfe of vs from that which he affirmeth to his owne aduantage What he grāteth for vs against himselfe so farre we are to embrace his authority seing it may be presumed that ordinarliy no learned man would confesse any thing against himselfe his Religion but what the euidency of the truth therein enforceth him vnto and therefore one of the ancient Doctours of your Christian Church if I do remember his words in this respect said well I will strike the Aduersaryes with their owne weapons But what the Aduersary affirmeth in fauour of his owne cause and against vs their we are not to stand to his own authority since no man is to be a witnes in his owne behalfe and it well may be presumed that such his sentence
Apostles times Therefore I will end with the Instance of the fast of Quatuor Temporum which was first ordained by Pope Calixtus CARD BELLARM. The Vessell M. Doctour from whence you draw these Instances seemes to runne very low and nere the dreggs Seeing for want of examples for change in dogmaticall points of faith you are forced at the last to descend to the Institution of set times of fasts For what is this to the alteration of Faith and Religion in the Church of Rome in any dogmaticall Article which is the point only to be insisted vpon by you Hath not the Church of Christ authority to appoint fasting dayes The Apostles you know did lawfully command all men to forbeare from eating of bloud and of things strangled and may not the Church succeeding them as lawfully command that at certaine times of the yeare and for some few dayes the Christians shall for beare from eating of fleash and vse a more moderate dyet But it seemes you loue not to feede vpon superstitious Popish fish since many of you accoumpt it so Now as touching the antiquity of this fast of Quatuor TemporuÌ„ Where you say it was first ordained by Calixius you grant hereby that it is aboue fourteene hundred yeares since it first institution for Calixtus was the next successour but one to Pope Victor which Victor liued in the yeare of our Lord and Sauiour one hundred and sixty Thus you are more preiudized then aduantaged by prostituting this your sily supposed Innouation I will annex hereto that whereas M. Doctour you do not produce any ancient authour charging Calixtus with the first beginning of this Fast we on the contrary side can alleadge S. Leo ascribing it to proceede from the Doctrine of the Holy Ghost his words are these following Ecclesiastica ieiunia ex doctrina Sancti Spiritus ita per totius anni circulum distribura sunt And thus much touching the Antiquity and lawfulnes of the Past of Quatuor Temporum whereof you see M. Doctour your owne bare assertion excepted no certaine beginning can be knowne since the Apostles dayes But Sir proceede further in other instances if so you can D. WHITAKERS Touching further multiplicity of examples I will not much labour The time is already spent And I hope my former examples notwithstanding your subtill euading of them are able to sway with all such who are truly illuminated with the spirit of the Lord. CARD BELLARM. I beleeue you well You will not labour further therin the true reason being because you cannot For I haue perused your bookes written against Duraeus wherein you cheifly instaÌ„ce touching the chaÌ„ge of the faith of Rome and your other Bookes against Father Campian that blessed Martyr as also your writings against my selfe and I can finde no other instances of this imaginary change insisted by you then these alleadged Yea when the said Father Campian as most confident of no change of Faith in the Church of Rome did most earnestly prouoke you Protestants to name the time and other circumstances accompanying this supposed change in those his vehement and inforcing Interrogations QuaÌ„do hanc fideâ—tant opore celebratum Roma perdidit quardo esse desiâ—t quod antefuit quo tempore quo Pontifice qua via qua vi quibus incrementis Vrbem et Orbem Relgio peruasit aliena quas voces quas turbes quae lamenta progenuit Omnes orbe reliquo sopiti sunt dum Roma Roma inquaÌ„ noua Sacramenta nonum Sacrificium nouum Religionis dogma procuderet You though thus a wakened yet in your answere hereto only dwells in your former example of Pope Siricius aboue refuted touching the single life of Priests in place of further satisfaction you thus reply to the said Father Campian Tuverò si dubitas an desierit meaning whether Rome had changed it Religion potes etiam si vis dubitare ansul meridie splendeat Can any man not blinded with preiudice thinke that if you had any materiall proofes for it change being a point of the greatest consequence that is betweene you and vs but that you being thus extremely importâ—ned would haue particularly iusisted in them and would haue enlarged such your reply with all reading wit learning possible And as for your former Instances they are most impertinent and in themselues most false as is aboue demonstrated they being wâ—res I presume wholy wrought in the shop of your owne braine like the spiders web which is spinned out of her owne Bowels MICHEAS M. Doctonr you must giue me leaue to tell you that your Instances aboue vrged do not much sway my iudgment first because they are not in number past some nine or ten in all of which foure do concerne only the Supremacy of the Bishop of Rome and two the doctrine of the Reall Presence so as it may be iustly coniectured that you Produced seuerall instances for one doctrine purposely therby to make shew in this your so great a scarcity of greater number of Examples The rest concerne Priests nor marying Purgatory auricular Confession and the fast of Quauor Temporum Which doctrines are few in respect of the many controuerted points as I am enformed betweene the Church of Rome and the Protestants Therfore I must presume that no instances can be but suggested or imagined to be giuen of the change of the Church of Rome touching the doctrines of the Visibility of the Church of Praying to Saints of Free-will Merit of workes Workes of supererogation Indulgences Monachisme Lymbus patruÌ„ Images the Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament Communion only vnder one kind Vninersallity of Grace the Necessuy and vertue of the Sacraments Inherent iustice the knowledge of Christ a man His being God of God and diuers others Secondly in that touching your former Instances some of the sayd doctrines are so agreeable to the practise of our Iewish Synagogue and the iudgments of our learned Rabbyes as I haue shewed as that I can hardly repute them as Innouations D. WHITAKERS The vnanimous agreement of the Church of Rome with you Iewes in some of the former doctrines is of smale force seeing you well know Micheas that the Law was to be abrogated at the comming of the Messias MICHEAS It is granted that our Law at the comming of the Sauiour of the world was to be disanulled so far forth as concerne either sacrifices or other Ceremonies which did prefigure the comming of the Messias yet seeing many dogmaticall points of faith beleeued by the Iewes haue no reference to his comming as the foresaid doctrines of Purgatory Confession of sinns c. therfore there can be no reason alleadged why the beleife of them in the time of the Lawe should not be a strong argument for their like beleife now in the time of Grace Wee may add hereto that if euery thing which was taught and commanded by the Law should now be abrogated then the tenne Commandements should in no sort belong to
rope too the Protestant promiseth reputation honour and riches Then the Vnderstanding and the Will do easily partake together to the betraying of the Soule by entertaining an erroneous Religion priuiledged with authority seconded with the streame of the tymes and aduantaged through meanes of preferring and here then that Sentence houldeth it force As gold is tryed by the stone so man by gold But let me stay my selfe I feare I haue spoken ouerlowde and the Schollers ouerhearing me out of their Colledge windows being so neare to vs may much blame this my Censure The second thing I note but pardon me most florishing Academies I protest I speake with the Apostle in charitate non ficta and not in any vpbrayding sense is that feminine Seruitours as employed for seruyle vses haue an ouer-free accesse into the Colledges a sight most strange in Catholicke vniuersityes and as Iam enformed much disliked by your owne Protestants O where vigour of youth Mansinnate propension the present inuiting obiect and the priuatnes of the place do all conspire together what dangerous effects of this Nature may they produce And we all see how apt the fyer is to take hould of any neare combustible mater But I had almost forgotten my selfe therefore leauing these poynts as meerly Perereà or impertinēcyes let vsdescend to some more serious discourse Touching my present fayth whereat you glance I grant I was a Iew both by byrth and Religion till by the infinite mercy of the Highest and the charitable endeuour of that most Illustrious and learned Cardinall in his disputes with D. Whitakers euen through waight of argument I was forced to embrace the Catholicke Fayth My Iudgement being till then but as Plato his Basatabula propending indifferently to Catholicke and Protestant and ready to receiue the wryting Impression of that Religion whichsoeuer it should be that came presented to myne eyes in the fayre attyre of venerable Antiquity OCHINVS I do much grieue Michaeas to see your candour and integrity thus distayned with the aspersion of superstition and glad I should be to lend a hand for the pulling you out of the myre of your present errours NEVSERVS Doubtlesly Michaeas your choyce of Religion hath proceeded from an indigested and raw censure which you haue made of the passages of the former disputation by you mentioned And therefore if you had gone with greater leasure therein your successe had bene the more fortunate But yet your sicknes is not vnto death fot there is tyme for your cure And since Grace and Temptation are the seedes of the Holy Ghost and the Diuell embrace that offered vnto you by God by shewing you the light of his Gospell and ouercome this being the bayte of Antichrist and my seruiseable labour shall no way be wanting to further so happy a change And the more I commiserate your present estate you erring out of Ignorance not out of malice for we see Saluation of your soule is the Circumference within which all your thoughts are bounded MICHAEAS Gentlemen I thanke you all and do interpret your words in the same language in which you did deliuer them I meane in the Dialect of your Charity And I see how ready your zeale is to take fyer vpon the least occasion of discourse Therefore assure your selues I am not ashamed of my fayth I am a Roman Catholicke at least and through the grace of God that working and efficatious Grace I meane which is the stone set in the Ring of Nature I am resolued so to liue and dye My resolution is so inalterable herein as that I trust through him who for his owne glory and in his owne Cause is euer ready to fortify the weake that your strongest assaults in dispute for I see thither your speeches tend shall not be able to beate me off the Station of my present Profession And I am the more confident in that with God causes are heard to speake not Persons And further you may rest certifyed that since the worthy Cardinals dispute with D. Whitakers I haue spent my whole tyme in the study of the Controuersies betweene the Catholicks and the Protestants and haue found diuers other most forcible inducements for my continuance in that fayth of which already I haue made election so certayne it is that the great Motion of Religion as it is newly entertayned by the iudgment turneth vpon many wheeles one still mouing and seconding another D. REYNOLDS May we entreate of you to show what Reasons are most preuayling for your not incorporating your selfe within our Protestant Church MICHEAS M. Doctour I will Besides the Argument handled betweene the Cardinall and D. Whitakers touching the supposed change of the fayth of Rome which to me still remaynes an vnauoydable Demonstration many other Reasons are and among the rest this oue I find by my perusall of Ecclesiasticall Historyes that the Protestant Church had it first being as I may say it Creation in the dayes of Luther or rather after then and not before coming out of an Abysse of Nothing Now what warrant can I haue after my leauing of the Iewish fayth which is confessed to be the true fayth for seuerall thousand yeares to implant my selfe in that Society of Christians whose Church my owne age being almost 70. is not thirty yeares elder then I am The truth of which point is euicted in that you are not able to instance the being of Protestants in any former Age. Now it is an inexpugnable verity that the Church of Christ is euer and in all ages to be most visible in her members Whereas on the contrary part some Protestants well discerning the want in their Church of this so necessary a Visibility haue bene forced to forge in their mindes a certayne imaginary and Inuisible Church and teaching that it is not necessary that the Church of Christ should be at all tymes Visible but that it may and often hath bene not only inconspicuous and inglorious but wholy latent and vnknowne But I feare I haue made an vnpleasing and ouer deepe incision in so dangerous a wound of your Church D. REYNOLDS See how the ambushment of your owne Passions I meane of preiudice and dislike betray your Iudgment And see how foulely euen in the beginning you are deceaued and how one errour in your words inuolues in it selfe a second errour For first we are ready and prepared at all tymes to prooue by particuler and most warrantable Instances that there haue bene men in euery age since the Apostles professing our Protestant Religion So farre off we are from acknowledging that the riuers of our fayth first issued out of Luthers fountayne Secondly it is your mistaking to thinke that the learned Protestants for what any Anonymous and illiterate scribler may blot his paper with by defending the contrary doctrine we regard not as acknowledging such a defect of Protestants do teach an inuisibility of the Church of Christ especially after the tymes of the comming
mayne Heresies or Paradoxes wholy impugned gainsaid and contradicted both by Protestant and Catholicke For this Man in this respecte is to be styled rather an open Hereticke then a Protestant euen in the censure of the Protestants themselues Therefore to conclude this last obseruation Euen as when beasts of seueral Kyndes or species do coople together that which is ingendred is of a third Kinde diuers from them both So here that Religion or fayth which is as it were propagated from the mixture of contrary Religions must be a beliefe different from them al. These things being premised now M. Doctour or either of you two may begin to instance in Protestant Professours for euery age And I shall reply therto as my iudgment and reading wil best inable me OCHINVS I do like well of these your animaduertions and they are able in a cleare iudgement to fanne away imperfect and faulty instances from such as be true and perfect MICHAEAS Before any of you begin your discours of Instancing I must demand of you al as Cardinal Bellarmyne did in his late discours with D. Whitakers whether you wil be content to stand to the authority of your owne learned Brethren in al the following passages betweene vs D. REYNOLDS I here answere for vs al We will indisputably stand to our owne mens learned iudgmeÌ„ts And if you can conuince either our future examples or our cause in generall from our Protestants penns we yeald you the victory For I do hould with Osiander the Protestant that the Confession and testimony of an Aduersary is of greatest authority And therefore Peter Martyr truly saith surely among other testimonyes that is of greatest weight which is giuen by the Enemyes And D. Bancrofs to omit al other Protestants in this point confirmeth the same thus writing Let vs take hould of that which they haue granted you may be bould to build thereupon for a truth that they are so constrained to yeeld vnto Which kinde of proofe is no lesse warranted by the Auncient Fathers for Ireneus saith It is an vnanswerable proofe which bringeth attestation from the Aduersaries themselues And Nazianzen pronounceth thus hereof It is the greatest cuâ—ning and wisdome of speech to bynd the Aduersary with his owne words So full you see Michaeas I am in this point But now let vs come to the maine matter To produce instances of Protestancy shal be my peculiar Scene And that I may the better marshal and incampe as it were my examples thereby the more forcibly to inuade your iudgment I will begin with the later times of the Church and so ascend vpwards And first for these last threescore yeares the Gospell of Christ hath enioyed here in England to forbeare all other Countreyes it Visibility in it full Orbe all writers of these dayes and other Nations acknowledging no lesse Againe in K. Edward the sixt his time this worthy Man Ochinus here present backed with the like endeauours of the learned Peter Martyr did so plant our Protestant fayth in our Nation as that infinite most remarkable Professours thereof did instantly growne like roses after a long cold or tempest blooming forth through the heate of the Sunne with refeâ—erence of which Professours Ochinus may iustly apply to himselfe the words of Aenias Quorum pars magna fui MICHAEAS Concerning the Professours of Protestancy here in England since Queene Elizabeth came to the Crowne I easily grant they haue been most Visible as I gather out of your English Chronicles And thus I freely confesse that Protestancy hath continued in England some threescore and seauen yeares But where you say that Protestancy I meane as it comprehendeth all the Articles taught at this day for Protestancy and which necessarily concurre to the making of a perfect complete Protestant was fully taught and beleiued in K. Edward his dayes I absolutely deny OCHINVS Will you deny Michaeas so manifest a verity whereas myselfe was not only an eyewitnesse in those times but If I may speake in modesty a greate Cause thereof What will you not deny if you deny such illustrious Trueths and what hope can we haue of your bettering by this our disputation MICHAEAS Good Ochinus beare me not downe with astreame of vaunting words the refuse of speech but if you can with force of argument I peremptorily deny the former point and for iustifying this my deniall I wil recurre to the Communion Booke set out in K. Edwards time with the approbation and allowance as D. Doue a Protestant affirmeth of Peter Martyr your Cooperatour Which Booke we must presume in al reason was made according to the publike fayth of the King and the Realme established in those tymes and the rather considering that the said Communion Booke for it greater authority was warranted in the Kings time by Act of Parliament Now this Communion Booke or publicke Lyturgy of the fayth of England in those dayes being printed in folio by Edward Whit-church anno 1549. pertaketh in many points with our Roman Religion For it maketh speciall defence for Ceremonyes and prescribeth that the Eucharist shal be consecrated with the signe of the Crosse It commandeth consecration of the Water of Baptisme with the signe of the Crosse It alloweth of Chrisme as also of the Childs annoynting and Exorcisme In that booke mention is made of prayer for the dead and intercession and offering vp of our Prayers by Angells It deffendeth Baptisme giuen by Laypersons in time of necessity and the grace of that Sacrament as also Confirmation of children and strength giuen them thereby It mentioneth according to the custome vsed in tyme at Masse at this very day the Priests turning sometimes to the Altar and sometimes to the People It ordayneth that answerably yet to our Catholike custome Alleluya should be said from Easter to Trinity sunday It prescribeth the Priest blessing of the Bryde brydegroome with the signe of the Crosse It alloweth the Priests absolution of the sicke Penetent with these particular words By the authority committed vnto me I absolute thee of all thy sinns It mentioneth a speciall Confession of the sicke Penitent And lastly it commandeth the annoynting of the sicke Person which we Catholicks call the Sacrament of Extreme Vnction So little reason Ocbinus you see you haue to affirme that the Protestancy of the present Church of England is the same which was mantained and publikely established by King Edward OCHINVS Indeede I grant the Communion booke was then made by the consent of the Parliament but I instructed those with whom I conuersed to reiect those superstitions their confirmed D. REYNOLDS Well let that passe It auayleth not much whether Protestancy was here in England at those dayes or no since it is certaine it was then most fully dilated in many other Countryes by the late afore raysing vp of Luther who was miraculously sent by the Holy
with Waldo so descending to Luthers dayes seing by this playne method the Reader might at the first sight and sensibly obserue that he hath omitted contrary to the title of his Booke eleuen hundred yeres without giuing any one instance of Protestancy for all those seuerall ages Therefore he craftily beginneth to instance in the tymes before Luther and so ryseth vpward some foure hundred yeres from this day in his pretended Examples Thus hoping that the vulgar Reader would either through not perusing the booke to the End or through want of Iudgment not so easely and instantly espye how far and no further he had proceeded in these Examples Now touching his Examples he first instanceth in Hus and Ierome of Prage who liued anno Domini 1400. that is some hundred and twenty yeres or thereabouts before Luthers Apostasy To this Example of Hus in which the Pamphleter cheifly insisteth for as for Ierome of Prage he but embraced some of Hus his errours as learning them from him I First answere that supposing Hus had broached all poynts of Protestancy yet followeth it not that Luther had receaued the said Doctryne from Hus by an vninterrupted descent of Beleife as this Authour pretendeth for it may well be that Hus his Errours were extinct in respect of any beleiuers before Luthers dayes Euen as Aerius denyed prayer for the deade and the Hereticke Manichaeus freewill as S. Austin witnesseth yet were those Heresyes vtterly extinguished for many ages till Luther reuiued them Secondly the articles which Hus mantayned different from the Roman Church were but foure as they are recorded by Fox himselfe Of which the doctrine of Communion vnder both kinds was the cheifest though according to the iudgement of Luther it is a point but of In differency In all other points Hus was Catholicke which this Authour calumniously concealeth Thirdly Hus mantayned that acknowledged Heresy on all sydes that Bishopps Princes being in mortall sinne were not to be obayed but thereby did loose all their authority Which Heresy is in like sort wholy concealed by this Pamphleter Concerning the particular prouffes of all which points euen from the Protestants Confessions I referre the Reader to the former Dialogue where Michaeas discouereth them at large as the like he doth of Wicklefe Waldo and others hereafter alledged by this Treatiser Fourthly if the Visibility of the Protestant Church may be iustifyed in Hus or in Waldo Wicklefe or in any other hereafter obtruded for a Protestant by this Pamphleter because eich of them taught two or three at the most of Protestant points then by the same reason may the Protestant Church de sayd to haue beene visible in the Arians for reiecting of Traditions for perpetrating many sacrileges agaynst the Sacraments Altars and Priests in Pelagius for teaching euery sinne to be mortall in Vigilantius for condemning all religious virginity and affirming the relicks of Saincts are not to be worshipped In the Manichees for denying of freewill And in diuers such others All branded Hereticks and registred for such by the orthodoxal Fathers of the Primatiue Church Now this Inference I would entreate the Reader to obserue with peculiar application to all the pretended examples of Protestancy alledged in this Pamphlet Fiftly if we should grant heere all that which is spoken of Hus yet it but warranteth the visibility of the Protestant Church only for the age in which Hus did liue His doctrine not being taught in ages before Now here in this discourse touching Hus I am to put the Reader in mind how this Authour spendeth many idle leaues in showing how the Nobles of Bohemia mantayned the errours of Hus And that they came into the field in great forces agaynst the Emperour in defence of the same so much sayth he was the doctrine of Hus dilated He also introduceth some one or other inueighing against the Popes manners and Cleargy of those tymes and for such their proceedings he tearmeth them Protestants And this method he mightely obserueth throughout his whole Pamphlet Idly inferring as if fayth which resids in the vnderstanding were not different from manners and conuersation which rest in the Will Or that abuses in manners will not euer be in some members of the Church Or finally that a Protestant for charging of some Ministers of his part with disorders of life or Puritans for their bitter inuerghing against the Bishops here in England were therefore to be reputed Roman Catholicks so loosly and weakly he disputeth herein But all these his Digressions in respect of the vndertaken subiect of his discourse are meerly extrauagant And in my iudgment his intention in these and other such dilations and declamatory inuectiues wherewith his Treatise is in many places hereafter fraught is cheifly but to fill vp leaues of paper that so his booke might grow to some reasonable quantity For seeing all his supposed examples of Protestancy in his Treatise might well be contayned omitting all froathy ambages and circumstances in two sheets of paper and seeing such a poore thing could not come forth alone with any credit to the cause or reputation to the writer He therefore thought it more fit to interweaue in his Pamphlet diuers long and tedious discourses how improfitable soeuer This to thinke I am the rather induced in that we may further obserue in how great and large a letter his Booke is printed and how spacious the margent of his leaues are being almost as much paper in quantity as that which is printed And all this as probably may be coniectured to the end that this his learned Tome forsooth might contayne some indifferent number of leaues See how suttle Heresy is in triffles and things of no moment The Authour hauing finished his discours of Hus his adherents followers in the next place riseth to the Waldenses who as is here alledged denyed Purgatory Transubstantiatiō blessing of Creatures First touching Transubstantion what the Pamphleter here deliuereth is a vast Vntruth as appeareth from the testimony euen of Calu 〈…〉 thus wryting Formula Confessionis c. The forme of Cōfession of the Waldenses doctrine doth inuolue all those in eternall damnation who do not confese that the Bread is become truly the body of Christ In lyke sort touching the doctrine of Purgatorie Benedictus Montargensis a Lutheran chargeth the Waldenses therewith from which two Examples we may take a scantling what credit is to be giuen to the Pamphleter in his other Assertions hereafter But grant that the Waldenses did teach some one or other poynt of Protestancy yet in regard of their far greater Number of Catholicke Articles euer beleiued by them and their many execrable Heresies condemned for such both by Catholicks and Protestants both which poynts this Pamphleter pretermitted in silence The Waldenses cannot iustly be exemplified for Protestants Now of the Catholicke Articles as also of the Heresies beleiued by the Waldenses see the Dialogue aboue in the
points touching fayth and Religion and different from the then Roman fayth wherewith Waldo Wicklefe Hus c. were then charged would be professed beleâ—ued and mantayned in these dayes by the enemyes of the Church of Rome And therefore it necessarily followeth that the accusations passed in former times vpon Waldo Wicklefe Hus and the rest are either in generall true or in generall false If false then haue we no sufficient Records that there were any in those dayes who beleiued any points of protestancy If true then certayne it is that as Waldo Wicklefe Hus c. mantayned some points of protestancy so with all that they mantayned diuers explorate Heresies and acknowledged for such both by Catholicks and Protestants Secondly the Pamphleter obiected in the Catholicks name in this sort None of all those which hitherto haue beene named or can be named meaning for Protestants but in some knowne confessed and vndowbted Opinions did varye from you And therefore they and you Protestants may not be said to be all of one Church This difficulty he salueth with a most impudent and bare denyall saying All those whom before I haue named did generally for all mayne Matters teach the same Which we now teach What forhead or shame hath this Man For First as touching Waldo Wiclef Hus and their followers in whom through out this Pamphlet the Authour principally insisteth It is confessed by Osiander Luther Fox and other Protestants as also it appeareth by some of their owne Wrytings that they agreed with the Catholicks in most points of Catholicke Religion which were of greatest moment as in the Reall Presence seuen Sacrements praying to Saincts Purgatory frewill Merit of Works and in all other most principall Articles of the present Roman Religion Concerning the proufe of all which poynts I remit the Reader to the Former Dialogue Secondly touching other obscure Men alledged by the Pamphleter for Protestants he commonly and for the most part some two or three excepted exemplifieth no other Article of Protestancy defended by them then their disobedience and inueighing against the Bishop of Rome But if he could haue iustly auerred them for Protestants in all chiefe Articles why would he not as well particulary set the said Articles of Protestancy downe as he did the other touching their disclayming from the authority of the Bishop of Rome Ad hereto that many are produced for Protestants by this Authour only for their sharply speaking and writing against the manners and conuersation of the Cleargy in those dayes they not dissenting from the doctrine of the then Church of Rome in any one article whatsoeuer euer euen ackuowledging the Primacy of that Sea To all the former poynts I may adioyne this following Consideration That supposing the forsaid alledged Men were protestants in all poynts yet do they not proue the Visibility of the true Church of Christ for these Reasons ensuing First because they were but few in number and in regard of such their paucity the Predictions of the amplitude largnes and continuall splendour of Christ Church could not be performed in that small number Touching which predictions peruse the beginning of the Dialogue Secondly because neither this Authour nor any other Protestant liuing how learned soeuer can proue that there were in those tymes specified by this Pamphleter any Administration of the Word and Sacraments practized by any of these supposed Protestants which euer necessarily concurs to the existence and being of the true Church as is demonstrated in the former Tract Thirdly because the former Men could but serue for instances during their owne lyues and no longer The Pamphleter not being able to name any one Man for a Protestant for the space of many Ages and Centuryes together which poynt being so impugneth not only the Nature of Christs true Church which must at all tymes and ages be most visible but also it crosseth the Title of this Pamphlet wherein the Authour vndertaketh to proue the Visibility of his Church in all Ages Thus far now Good Reader I haue labored in surueighing this Idle Pamphlet Now for they better memory I will breifly recapitulate and repeate certaine chiefe impostures and deceatefull deportements practized by this Authour throughout his Booke And then I will remit both him and his Treatise to they owne impartiall Iudgment 1. First then I may remember his putting no name to his Booke nor taking any Notize of the then late Conference in London touching the Visibility of the Protestant Church nor once naming M. Fisher and M. Sweete the two then disputants Which concealed Cours our Pamphleter purposly affected in all probability seing otherwise he might well thinke that the setting of his owne Name downe especially if the Authour were either D. Whyte or D. Featly or hauing in this discours particular reference to the foresaid Disputation might sooner draw on an answere to his Pamphlet from one of the said two Fathers or from some other Priest 2. Secondly You may call to mynd that in the first part of his Treatise he laboreth to proue rather the Inuisibility of the true Church then the Visibilitie thereof contrary to the Inscription of his Pamphlet cheifly to intimate thereby that a continuall Visibility of the true Church is not so necessarily to be exacted as we Catholicks do teach it is and consequently that what few weake mayâ—ied and imperfect proufs and examples for the continuance of protestancy he was after to alledge the same might be thought sufficient and strong enough for the establishing of his owne Churches Visibility 3. Thirdly The pamphleter callengeth any one for a Protestant who did but hould one or two Articles of protestancy and especially if he did but impugne the Popes authority or did wryte against the Manners conuersation of the Cleargy of those dayes though otherwyse he did agree with the Church of Rome in all Articles of fayth 4. Fourthly He callengeth those for protestants who were condemned by the Church of Rome for other Errours then are mantayned by the protestants so making the ignorant Reader beleiue that the Pope in those dayes condemned only the doctrines of Protestants for Heresies this the pamphleter doth to the end that the number of the professours of his Church in those dayes might seeme the greater in his Readers eye 5. Fyftly he most cauteously concealeth the Catholicke doctrynes euer beleiued by Hus Wiclefe Waldo c. as also sic most falsly extenuateth such Heresies as they mantayned are acknowledged for Heresies euen by learned protestaÌ„ts The Treatizer subtelly forbearing to name or set downe in expres Words any one of their Heresies 6. Sixtly For want of better Authours he fleeth to the testimonyes euen of Poëts as Chaucer Daâ—â—es Petrarch vrging them for protestants only by reason of their Satyrs written against the supposed abuses of Rome 7. Seauently he most impertinently dilateth and spreadeth hymselfe in long and tedious discourses touching the increase of the Doctrine of Waldo Hus Wiclef
them They would make men to beleiue that they had for the tymes and within their limits an absolute authority as if themselfs were Princes In lyke sort this Doctour reciteth Martin Seinâ—r making mention of a hundred thousand hands and what a stroake so many would stryke together and that Martin affirming their suyte should not be reiected especially in such a tyme whearein we now lyue in danger of our enemyes abroad and therefore had need of no causes of discoradgment at home Thus D. Bancroft cyteth the words of Martin Marprelet and then he giueth his sentence iudgment of this their Menage and tearmeth it thus A speech at least seditions This Doctour also further discoureth the threats of the Puritans against the Magistrate and he alledgeth one of their comminations thus in their owne words We haue sought to aduance this cause of God by humble suyte to the Parlament by wryting c. seing none of these meanes vsed by vs haue preuayled if it come by that meanes which will make all your harts to ake blame yourselfs Finally not to stay long hearein D. Succlif thus speaketh of Martin Marprelate Martin wisheth that the Parlament would bring in the Eldership notwithstanding her Maiestyes resisting of it vz by a rebellion They bragged of a hundred thousand hands and in playne â—â—armes talked of Massacring their Aduersaries Thus D. Succlif with whome I will heare end VICE-CHANCELOVR Though I cannot deny Michaeas the former attempts of the Protestants Yet since not only the Papists Doctrine but also the mainfold traiterous desigments and reall practizes of them against their Protestant Prinâ—es are no lesse tragicall then the former related by you are I do not see but that granting the Protestants to be faulty in defect of Loyalty you Papists may in a far more high degree be iustly insimulated within the said Cryme Good God your treasons and machinations haue bene so apparent and so approued by the consent almost of all other Papists as that I may truly pronounce that in the whole thronge of Papists a true and Loyal Papist towards his Protestant Soueraigne so rare such an one is is lyke a Diamond placed among many whyte Saphyrs So iust reason had the learned D. Morton to say of your Profession We may now expect as well a white Ethiopian as a loyall Subiect of this Religion MICHAEAS Alas M. Vice-Chancelour These are but verball exagerations without prouffe which as they are but wynde of spâ—enfull tongues so are they blowne away with the Wynd Be it that some Catholicke Doctours in certaine peculiar Cases do ascrybe a powrfull authority to the Pope against Princes And grant also that some few Catholicks haue proued to be to the ineffable greife and dislyke of all other good and sober Catholicks Disloyall to their Prince Yet since the difference both of their doctrines and circumstances of their attempts are incomparably short and inferiour to the doctrynes and reall insurrections of the Protestants against their Soueraignes You haue no reason M. Vice Chancelour thus to insult in galantry of such amplifying speeches against vs. Therefore I will paralell them heare together that so you seeing the greate disparty may â—ecall for shame those your speeches and suffer your cheekes to witnes your former errour And first touching the doctrine The Protestants I meane those former alledged Protestants do extend this power of deposing Princes to euery pore parochial superintendent who is Pope or so would be within his owne circuit yea for want of such a turbulent fellow if at any tyme theare can be a want of these they giue this liberty as aboue I haue showed to the base Common people and promiscuous multitude the many headed tyrants of all humane societyes The Catholicke deuynes who most defend such transcendency of proceedings do neuertheles ascrybe the doing of it to the Pope only who is a stranger and therefore further of from any such sudden present attempting and who himselfe in case of Heresy as a priuate person lyeth open to the same perill This also they teach must be done by many former sweete admonitions and proceedings To proceede to the attempts on both sides The Protestants haue actually deposed seuerall Kings Queenes and absolute soueraigns Thus is the King of Spayne deposed of a greater part of the Lowcontryes the King of France of certaine Cittyes in France The supreme Lord of Geneua of his Territory belonging to that Cittie The Emperour of many Imperiall Cittyes in Germany King Sigismond of his Kingdome of Sweueland and Finally his Maiesties Grandmother and Greatgrandmother of the Kingdome of Scotland The Pope and the Catholicks haue neuer yet to this day actually detroned any one absolute Protestant Prince or King throughout all Christendome of their Sates and Territoryes The greatest matter of this nature that can be alledged is the excommunications of King Henry the eight of England Queene Elizabeth his daughter and King Henry of France the fourth The Protestants haue come into the fyeld against their Catholicke Princes in many huge Armyes and hundred thousans of men as appeareth by the warrs made by them in the Low Countryes France Germany which warrs haue continued for many yeres The Catholicks neuer yet leuyed any such Armyes against their protestant Prince Lastly the Protestants haue not only deposed their Princes of seuerall states and Countryes but they haue really impatronized themselues of the sayd states and keept them in their owne possession as is ouer manifestly euident by the examples of Rochel in France Geneua Holland Zeland seuerall parts of Germany Sweueland Transiluania c. The Catholicks to this very day haue not made themselues Lords of any one towne or Citty much lesse of any state or Kingdome which haue belonged to their protestant Princes And thus farre touching the libration and weighing in an euen hand the doctrine and attempts taught and made by ProtestaÌ„ts Catholicks in point of disloyalty against their lawfull dread soueraigns of a different Religion And now M. Vice-Chancelour after the true vnfoulding of these matters which afore were lapped vp in a great mistaking I demaund of you where are your former Termini Conuertibilis of Papistry Disloyalty Your similitude of one Diamond among many worthles Saphyrs And D. Mortons strange beast As if all Papists and â—o Protestants were guilty of Treason and Rebellion against their lawfull Princes so fowly you see your selfe was mistaken therein and so wildly did your Doctourâ—aue â—aue of a whyte Ethiopian L. CHEIFE-IVSTICE Michaeas I am tyred with learning thus much of this distastfull Theame and I am vnwilling you should spinne out this discours to any further lenght Therefore you may heere end And truly I would scarse haue beleiued till now my owne eyes much lesse my eares that the Protestants wrytings and actions had stood so iustly subiect to this kind of Reprehension But I must yield though with greife to such euident testimonyes as you haue produced
heare of our Sauiours death and Passion The Crosse being but to the Eye as the Words are to the eare In this next place we will breifly touche praying vpon beades benediction or blessing of Water Sali Aches Candells c. against which many Protestants do mightely inueigh as charging the Catholicks theâ—rein with Superstition affirming further that the Catholicks do place a kynd of Diuinity in these matters Into such strayts we see the Protestants are driuen that whereas they are not able by any forcible arguments to ouerthrowe the Catholicke fayth in the greatest cheifest articles they therefore bend all their stenght to impugne these small rytes and Ceremonyes And first touching praying vpon beades All Men know it is but the repetition of the same prayers seuerall tymes the beades seruing only but to number or counte the tymes This Custome is warranted by the exâ—mple of our Sauiour hymselfe who being in the garden did repeate one and the same prayer to wit meâ—hree â—hree seuerall tymes Now if it be lawfull to iterate one and the same prayer thryse it is lawfull by the same reason to iterate it many scores of tymes together Againe if it be lawfull to repeate the Lords prayer seuen tymes in a weeke for I presume euery Protestant will confesse he saith it once a day why then may he not repeate the said Lords prayer or any other good and spirituall prayer seauen tymes a day and if seauen tymes why not then any greater number of tymes Againe once granting the prayer to be good the goodnes of the Prayer by force of all reason doth warrant the often repetition of it The precise number or tymes of repeating one the same prayer among Catholicks hath a mysticall reference either to the number of Dauids Psalms or to the nuÌ„ber of the yeeres that our blessed Lady liued heare vpon earth or to the number of our Sauiours wounds or to the number of the Persons in the most blessed Trinity Or to some other such Mystery The Antiquity of praying vpon Beads is confested by the Centurists and by Osiander to haue bene twellue hundred yeres since In lyke sorte the antiquity is recorded by Zozomene who saith that Paule the Monke was accustomed to pray by counting the number of litle stones in tyme of repeating his prayers Which is all one as to pray vpon beads The words of Zozomene are these Indiâ—s singulos trecentas orationes Deo velut tributum quoddam reddidit ac neper imprudentiam in numero errant trâ—centis lappillis in sinum contectis ad singulas preces singulos inde eâ—ecit lapillos consumptis igitur lapillis constabit sibi orationes lapillis numero pares abs se explectos esse And thus much touching praying vpon Beads We will next deâ—â—ende to the consecrating or blessing of Creaturs vsed in the Catholicke Church the lawfulnes whereof is warranted by the example of Christ himselfe Who intending to multiplye the breads did looke vp towards Heauen and blessed the breads and from that blessing of his did multiplye them But certaine it is that what our Sauiour did is free from all reprehension Againe doth not the Apostle say That euery Creature is sanctified by the Word and prayer The Antiquity of Hollowing or blessing Creatures and particularly of holy water is very greate For Clemens Dionysius both who liued in the Apostles tymes Cirill Cyprian Ambrose Austin and others co make frequent mention of Holy Water and the religious vse thereof And hence it is that the Centurists do charge the Fathers liuing in the third age after Christ with superstition in blessing and hollowing of water among which Fathers S. Cyprian thus saith Oportet mandari sanctificari prius aquat a Sacerdote Benediction of Oyle is mentioned and approued by Clemens and Dionisius in the places aboue noted by Basill Austin Cyprian who thus expresly saith Olium in Altari Sanctificatur by the Councel of Leodice by the second Councell of Carthage by the third Councell of Carthage by the first Councell of Toleâ—â— Finally to omit the testimonyes hereof of other Councells and auncient Fathers the antiquity of Hollowing of Oyle and that particularly by a Bishop is acknowledged by the Centurists and by Cempin 〈…〉 s. Benediction of breads and this besides the â—se thereof in the consecration of the Sacrament is proued from the authority of S. Austin S. Paulinus and S. Ierome the words of which last Father are these Coneurrebant Episcopi Presbiteri c. vulgus ignobile potentes viri Iudices vt benedictum ab eo panem vel â—leum acciperent This poynt of the benediction of bread is so euident to haue bene practized in those auncient tymes that D. Fulke thus speaketh thereof It was a superstitious bread giuen in S. Austins tyme to those that were Catechumeni in steede of the Sacrament And Philip Mornay in lyke sort thus chargeth the Liturgy of S. Basill It alloweth holy bread to be distributed after Seruice to such as had not communicated Benediction of Candells is acknowledged by the fourth Councell of T 〈…〉 ledo by Pope Zozimus S Gregory Prudentius and Strabo and according hearto the Centurists do confesse the antiquity of this Ceremony to be greate and withall do further confesse that Candells did burne in the Church in the day tyme in Constantyns dayes thus wryting hereof Accensiones candelâ—rum interdiù in templis Constantinus instituit The proufe of which custome is further euident out of the fourth Councell of Carthage Eusebius and Ierome The benediction of Palms and Ashes is proued from the authority of S. Maximus Now to reiect the authorityes of all the former Fathers touching the benediction of Creatures is to charge the Primatiue Church with superstition and errour Which no Man either of humility Charity or learning will do Ad herto that the Protestants themselfs do practice this consecration of Creaturs For they do consecrate their new builded Colledges and Ch 〈…〉 ches or Chappell 's yea which is most ridiculou It hath bene obserued of late that in some places of England Yf a Catholicke hath bene buryed in a Church â—otwithstanding the Church was first builded by Gotholicks the Church as supposed to be prophaâ—ed by the dead body of the Catholicke hath beene by it Person and Ministers of new consectated and hollowed Spectatam admissi â—isumteneatis Now in this next place we will show the end why Creatures are blessâ—d by the prayers of the Chuâ—ch Which end is threefould First to signify spirituall effects Thus the sprinkling of Ashes signifyeth penance Palmes signify victory the Paschal Candell betokeneth the glory of these Resurrection And thus they are vsed to stirrup our deuotion The second End is to take away veniall sinns of which poynt S.
the word Altar hath euen by the confession of D. Raynolds a necessary and inseparable reference to the words Pryest and Sacrifice as they are taken in their proper and naturall signification since they are Relatiues And seing euery Altar hath a relation to a true and real Sacrifice and to a Pryest as the Word is properly taken and as the said Pryest doth offer vp a true and reall Sacrifice That the Fathers do often mention Altars now to be in the Church of Christ you may M. Vice-Chancelour peruse Austin Chrisostome Optatus Dyonisius Areo pogita and finally the Canons of the Apostles VICE-CHANCELOVR Howsoeuer the Primatiue Fathers may take the word Priest It is not much materiall to vs who heere relye only vpon the pure word of God interpreted to vs by the Holy Ghost yet sure I am that Those Priests who come into England do arrogate vnto themselues a dooble Prerogatiue of which all Antiquity was wholy ignorant The first is in vndertaking to reconcile men to the Pope our states designed enemy And so by this meanes to alienate them in their allegiance from their owne natiue Prince and soueraigne The second in assuming to them power to offer vp in the Masse the body bloud of Christ Which once for all was offered vp for the whole world vpon the Crosse Now both these attempts are deseruedly punished by our Lawes for their acrocityes therein committed And to the daunger decreed against them your selfe Michaeas rests obnoxious seing you being a Priest haue no doubt often practized them both since your arriuall into England MICHAEAS It is wonderfull to obserue how Malice taking the place of Ignorance seeleth vp Mans iudgment for I presume M. Vice-Chancelour You cannot be ignorant of the vntruth of these your assertions Therefore for the better satisfying of you Myreuerend Iudge whom in all reason and duty I am bound to satisfy You are heere to know that what M. Vice-Chancelour calleth reconciling to the Pope is nothing els but an incorporating of one into Christ Church if so afore he was no member thereof by Confession of his sinnes accompanied with a resolution neuer to sinne more to a Catholicke Priest and absolution thereof giuen by the said Priest Or if he were afore a branch of the said Mysticall Body then is this M. Vice-Chancelour reconciling a meere penitent Confession of our sinnes to a Catholicke Priest attended on with an absolution from the said sinnes By force of which Sacrament we ouercome him who is inuincible and restrayne him who is Omnipotent Now heare I demand in all sincerity how these spirituall Actions of a penitent sinner may be reputed preiudiciall to his Loyalty to his Prince Or what necessary reference hath the one to the other Or shall we thinke that in Catholicke CouÌ„tryes for the reason is the same of Catholicks liuing either in Catholicke or Protestante Countries one renounceth his Loyalty to his Prince by recurring to this spirituall physick for the curing of his soules disseases Alas M. Vice-Chancelour I much greiue to see you thus drunke as I may say with malice as to forge such strange and forced interpretations of the Priests and Catholicks proceedings hearein And I pray you how can it be conceaued M. Vice-Chancelour that our propâ—â—quity towards God for such a nearnes is wrought by a true penitent Confession should be presumed to cause a greater distance of our obedience from our Prince and that our state of grace in the sight of God should be censured as a state of Disloyalty in the eye of Man No. The case is mearly contrary to your supposall For since absolute Princes are the Vicegerents of God and in that respect are tearmed Gods Ego dixi dij estis And since we are bound to obey our Prince euen propter conscientiam Therefore we may truly inferre that a fearefull Conscience loath to offend God or through f 〈…〉 ty offending yet willing by the Sacrament of pennance absoluâ—ion to expiate it sinns is euer most ready to performe it d 〈…〉 y 〈…〉 en for feare of Gods displeasure to 〈◊〉 soueraigne And that such Men as want this ten â—ernes of conscience â—â—e loyall subiects so long only as their owne temporall and humane respects do comport with this their loyalty VICE-CHANCELOVR You speake much Michaeas of your Priestly function in absoluing of sinnes confessed But you should prooue if you can since it is most materiall that such Men as were tearmed Priests in the Primatiue Church did heare the confessions of other Mens sinnes and did giue absolution of them so confessed And if you cannot make this good from the Precedents of those firster and purer tymes we must then rest assured that this your assumed authority is but a meere Innouation ingendred betweene the pryde of the Priest taking vpon him Gods person heerein for we read Quis potest dimittere peccata nisi solus Deus Marc. 2. and the scrupulous superstition of the confessed Penitent MICHAEAS It is true that only God originally primatiuely and immediatly remitteth sinne and in this sense the Scripture speaketh of only God remitting of sinne yet is his diuine Maiesty pleased to vse Man as his instrument therein according to those words of our Sauiour to the Apostles Whose sinnes you shall forgiue they are forgiuen and whosâ— sinnes you shall retayne they are retayned From which passage we further inferre that seing some sinnes are to be retayneâ— and not remitted it followeth inauoydably that we are obliged particularly and distinctly to confesse our sinnes to the Priest For how can the Priest know what sinnes are to be retayned and what sinnes to be remitted except he know which the sinnes be in particular Ad heereto that if God vouchsafest to vse Water a creature much more base then Man as his instrument for the taking away of Originall sinne then much more may Man as his instrument and receauing his authority heerein from the words of Christ and from his Passion which giue force and efficacy to â—ich Sacrament now in the tyme of grace practize without sacriledge the same authority that the auncient Fathers of the Primatiue Church contrary to your former bold assertion M. Vice-Chancelour did concordantly teach practize our Catholicke doctrine herein is most euident I will not ouerwhelme you with multitude of their testimonyes though all of them are most luxuriant in such their sentences therefore thâ—â—e or foure of them and such as are most auncient shall serue Heere then first I will produce the words of Saint Basill thus wryting Necessario peccata ijs apperiri debent quibus credita est dispensatio mysteriorum Dei si quidem rationem hanc in paeriteâ—â—ia etiam veteres illos â—ernimus secutos fuisse Our sinnes ought of necessity to be reuealed to them to whom is committed the dispensing and distribution of the mysteries of God And thâ—sâ— ou se in Pennance we do find that the
auncient Christians did follow Thus we see that this authority and words of Saint Basill simply a necessity of confession of our sinnes to the Priest and consequently a particular relation of them Saint Leo thus conspireth with Saint Basill Cum reatus conscientiarum sufficiat solis Sacerdotibus iudicari confessione sâ—creta c. Seing it is sufficient that the guiltines of our consciences be made knowne only to Priests in secret confession c. where you may see that confession of sinnes in those dayes was made secret and only vnto Priests Saint Austin thus agreeth with the former Fathers Non solum post paenitentiam c. Not only after Pennance is prescribed a Man ought to keepe himselfe from those vices but also before pennance whiles he is sound who if he should deferre it all his last end Nescit si ipsam pâ—nitentiam accipere Deâ— Sacerdoti peccata sua confiteri poterit He knoweth not whether he shall haue power to receaue his pennance and to confesse his sinnes to God and to a Priest S. Cyprian thus wryteth of this poynt quantò fide maiore timore meliore sunt qui quantumâ—â—uis nullo sacrifiâ—ij aut libelli faciâ—ore constricti quontam tomen de hoc vel cogitauerunt hoc ipsum apud Sacerdotes Dei volenter simpliciter confidentes exomologesni conscientiae faciunt animi pondus expenum salutâ—rem meaelam paruis licet modicis vulneribus exquirunt How much more greater fayth and better feare haue they who though they be not guilty of any cryme touching Sacrifice or giuing vp a Libel yet because they had such a conceate or thought they do with greiffe and simplicity confesse this to Priests c. Thus do they disburden their consciences and seeke to apply a healthfull remedy to their small wounds Now heere by the words Sacrifice and Libel are to be vnderstood sacrifizing to Idolls in the tymes of the Heathen Emperours and giuing vp their names in a booke that they were content to sacrifize To be short Tertullian thus sayth of this custome of confessing our sinnes to a Priest Plerosque hoc opus aut subfugere aut de die in diem differie presumo pudorâ—â— magis memores quam salutis velut illi qui in partibus verecundieribus corporis contracta vaxatione scientiam Medentium vitant ita cum eâ—â—bescentia sua pereunt I do presume that diuers do eyther anoyd this worke meaning of confessine their sinnes or do deferre 〈◊〉 from day to day being more mindfull of their shame then of their health They being heerein like to those Men who hauing some disâ—â—se in their more secret parts of their body do flee the cure of Physitians and so they perish through their owne shame Thus Tertullian from whose testimony is necessarily euicted particular confession of our priuat sinnes euen according to the nature of his similitude heere vsed This point of the auncient Fathers iudgment touching confession of our particular sinnes to a Priest is so deere and manifest that the Centurists discoursing of the vse thereof in those former tymes thus plainly acknowledge Si quis paenitentiam agebant peccatum prius confirebantur ac enim confessionem magnoperè Tertullianus vrget in libro de Pâ—nitentia institutem fuisse priuatam Confessionem qua delicta cogitata praua confessisunt ex aliquot Cypriani locis apparet c. Yf any in those tymes did pennance they did first confesse there sinnâ—e for thus doth Tertullian mightely vrge Confession in his booke de Paenitentia And that priuate Confession was then in vse by the which sinnes euen wicked thoughts were confessed appeareth from certaine places of Cyprian to wit out of his fift sermon de Lapsis lib. 3. Epist epist 14. and 16. Thus farre the Centurists all eminent Protestants who we see do grant that in those tymes euen priuat thoughts much more particular actuâ—ll sinnes were accustomed to be confessed Which Centurists do further witnesse that the Priest did in those tymes absolue the penitent besides by pronouncing the words of Absolution with the Ceremony of imposing her hand a ceremony which at this very day is vsed by the Priests And thus My Honorable Lord and you M. Vice-Chancelour you both may from hence perceaue how neere to the Apostles dayes Confession of particular sinnes euen by the acknowledgment of the Protestants was vsually practized Which point being granted it must by force of all Reâ—son follow that Christ did first institute this Sacrament of Confession and the Apostles did first exercize their authority therein giuen to them by Christ Since otherwise it cannot probably be conceaued that a dogmaticall point of fayth and Religion so crosse and repugnant to Mans nature as Confession is could in so short a tyme inuade the whole Church of God without any contradiction or resistance VICE-CHANCELOVR Michaeas you haue spoken much in warrant of ConfessioÌ„ and Asolution geuen by the Pryest But the question in regard of your former alledged authorityes is not so much whether Confession of particular sinns was generally taught by those auncient Fathers as whether they had iust reason and warrant so to teach But I will passe no censure of them touching this point But Michaeas what do you say to that assumed authority and priuiledge which you Pryests vendicate to yourselfes in the sacrifice of the Masse Wheare you bease the people in hand that you sacrifize and offer vp the true and naturall body and bloud of Christ to his Father I am assured that the auncient Church of God cannot affoard you any example hereof And the rather since it is manifest that the doctrine of Transubstantiation vpon which your doctrine of sacrifice is grounded was first brought into the Church at the Councell of Lateran by Innocentius the third Which Councell was houlden anno â—215 And therefore it was celebrated many hundred yeres after the Period of the Primatiue Church MICHAEAS M. Vice-Chancelour The sequâ—le will show of what Antiquitie the doctrine is conceâ—ning the sacrifice of the body and bloud of Christ Which is dayly offered vp by the Priest But first I will take away your stumbling block touching the name of Transubstantiation imposed by the Councell of Lateran For the better remouall whereof you are to conceaue that the doctrine of the reâ—ll being of Christs body and bloud in the Sacrament of the 〈◊〉 and Sacrifice of the Masse was taught in all the precedentages though the word Transubstantiation for the better explicating of the doctryne was then and not before inuented Euen as the doctrine of the Trinity was eueâ— in the first infancy of the Church generally beleeued yet the word Trinity was first imposed vpon the doctrine by Councell of Nice But to proceede further touching the Antiquity of the doctryne of the sacrifice of the Masse We first answeare herto that it receaued it first institution and beginning euen from the night before the