supreme ciuil power iure diuino as certaine Bishops of Rome haue done and claime or to place themselues in Princes thrones that is vnlawfull You can neuer shewe any such resemblance betwixt a Bishop being a Iustice of peace or counseller and the Popes vsurped authoritie claimed as due vnto him The 10. Demonstration If it be lawful for an Ecclesiastical man to exercise the office of a ciuil magistrate Demonstrat then è contra for the ciuill magistrate to exercise the office of an Ecclesiastical person but the later is vnlawful ergo the former The one is not as lawfull as the other Remonstrance though vpon a lawfull calling I see no reason why a ciuill magistrate may not exercise c. But where the example of the one is more frequent then the example of the other there it may seeme more lawful for the one then for the other It was lawfull for Samuel to kill Agag which was the office of Saul but not lawfull for Saul to offer sacrifice which was the office of Samuel The office of the ciuil magistrate may by commission or deriuation of power be committed to whom best pleaseth him not è contra The reason is the ciuill gouernment is a matter of accident not of the essence of the Ministerie I see no refusal you can make of this absurditie Absurditie of the Demonstrator if you so deeme it If a ciuill man may exercise the office of an Ecclesiasticall person then may an Ecclesiasticall man much rather execute the office of a ciuil person for that is but an accessorie thing to the principall office which hee beareth But a ciuil man may be an Elder that is an Ecclesiasticall officer and the most honourable may not refuse without disdaine of God as you say Ergo the Ecclesiastical person may beare the office of a ciuil magistrate The 11. Demonstration Demonstrat They may not entangle themselues with worldly affaires Can. aposto c. 80. but Ecclesiastical He must commodum se exhibere vsibus Ecclesiasticis Remonstrance so that hee may best serue for the vses and seruices of the Church Or so that one be not an impediment to another The 12. Demonstration or Allegation Demonstrat None of the clergie shall receiue charges of those who are vnder age Conc. Calcedon ca. 3. 7. or be steward to noblemen or receiue any secular honour That is Remonstrance none of the Clergie shall take the tutorship of any or make a confusion of callings and functions otherwise the Canon carieth no sense The 13. Demonstration Demonstrat or Allegation The Bishops shall onely attend to prayer 4 Conc. Carth. ca. 20. and preaching and reading The wordes are Episcopus nullam rei familiaris curam ad se reuocet Remonstrance Or he shal be so employed vnlesse vpon lawful commaund and calling His housholde cares may not make him forget his charge yet hee must haue care thereof bene praeesse propriae domui as S. Paul teacheth But doe you thinke this Canon barreth you from prouiding for your household affaires or to be masters in your owne houses The 14. Allegation or Demonstration Caluin Institut lib 4. cap. 11. sect 9. bringeth diuers reasons to prooue that Bishops may neither take nor vsurpe any ciuil office Demonstrat Caluin bringeth them Remonstrance but you can not bring forth the reason but like god Mercury in the high way point which way they go but vtter nothing There is neuer an one of his reasons concludent to proue it simply vnlawfull but by way of that which may happen by it The 15. Allegation or Demonstration Beza confess cap. 5. Sect. 32. 42. sheweth the distinguishment of offices Demonstrat and how the father 's dealt in things of this life and how the Apostles punishments were extraordinarie Ergo is not so cleare on your side Remonstrance for if the Apostles censures were extraordinarie how dare you draw some of them into consequence If giuing of aduise in all matters of warre and peace and in determinations iudiciall be matters of this life then Beza himselfe vseth ciuil authoritie as much as any one Ecclesiasticall man in any reformed Church in Europe The 16. Allegation or Demonstration Demonstrat When both offices meete in one the one hindereth the other Martyr 13. R◠That is when the ciuil power is excessiue or illimitable Remonstrance The same Martyr out of Chrysostome saith The Gospel was giuen to stablish the policie and gouernment of Princes and why not the policie of Princes for the Gospel The 17. Allegation or Demonstration Demonstrat There is no man so wise holy able to exercise ciuil ecclesiastical power Bucer 5. Matth. That is in plenitudine potestatis Remōstrance The 1. Obiection of the Demonstrator It countenanceth and mainteineth religion Demonstrat Answere of the Demonstrator It is the Papists reason which Caluin confuteth Inst lib. 4. cap. 11. sect 9. for the two swords The reason is no worse whose reason soeuer it be Remonstrance with reply but to two swordes it serueth not there is one indepriuable authoritie to beare the sword The 2. obiection of the Demonstrator It is good to punish vice by corporall punishment that the word may be obeyed Demonstrat Answere of the Demonstrator It is good to preach the word that they may obey their Prince for conscience sake May the magistrate therefore preach We must doe good agreeable to our calling Yea therefore it is good Remonstrance with reply being granted frō the Christian magistrat to punish sinne corporally as for the wanderment of your instance if the magistrate be so called he may preach obedience in his owne person and he that inflicteth corporall punishment doe no more then may stand with his calling The 3. obiection of the Demonstrator Eli and Samuel were both Priestes Demonstrat Answere of the Demonstrator They were extraordinarie and so was Eliahs killing of Baals priestes and Christs whipping of buyers c. God separated them in Moses and Aaron Cohanim in Hebrew signifieth princes and priests Remonstrance with reply and therefore that is doubtfull Though the men were extraordinarie the offices are not alwayes so but they leaue the vse of corporall infliction to punish Atheisme and Idolatrie and to augment godlinesse It is ordinarie with you to answere all thinges by extraordinarie when you can hit of none other all the old Testament is full of such examples of Ecclesiasticall men who exercised ciuill power yea not being delegated by any superiour Magistrate and therefore seemeth ordinarie that falleth out so often and in so many The 4. Obiection of the Demonstrator Peter killed Ananiah Demonstrat Ergo Bshops may haue prisons Answere of the Demonstrator It was with the worde onely If they can doe like Peters example wil serue If not then it is extraordinarie Hierom epistola ad Demetriadem
charge wherewith they are credited or Officials for the offices they beare are most Christian names else why doe themselues so often call their Tetrarches Church officers a name not founde in Scripture neither discipline in their sense nor classis nor prouincial or nationall Synode As for the pillar the Minor leaneth vpon to proue their offices and practise to be deriued from Antichrist it is weake and vnstable viz. All founded vpon the Canon lawe is grounded vpon a dunghill Some dunghill scholler made this Minor to diminish and detract from the authorized Canons of the Church vnder the odious name of the Popes lawe For the Canon lawe which is reteined with vs is nothing but the olde Canons of the Primitiue Church and such other approoued Iudicials in matters Ecclesiasticall as be neither contrarie to the prerogatiue royall nor to the lawes and statutes of the Realme and which had bene vsed before the making of that acte of Parliament 25. H. 8. are therefore since by diuerse actes in K. Ed. 6. daies and in her Maiesties honoured with the name of the kings Ecclesiastical lawes and the Ecclesiasticall lawes of this Realme and they are in like sorte vsed in the Ecclesiasticall Consistories of most of the reformed Churches in Germanie as they are here who doe as litle esteeme the Pope as we can doe Neither are some of those which were set downe by the Popes authoritie therefore vsed of vs as binding this Realme in respect of the ordeiner any more then Italy Fraunce or Spaine be said to acknowledge the authoritie of the Romane emperours ouer them for vsing the ciuill lawes For we doe therefore onely practise them because they concurre with the former statute enacting them and being set downe by good aduise are found equal and profitable Those who disdaine them in respect of the author doe shewe therein as witlesse curiositie as if they would vrge vs to abandon all printing because it was deuised first at Harlem by a Papist or ceasse to defende our selues with gunnes for that a Monke inuented them But if the matter retained displease them as not conuenient nor according to rules of equitie let all the wisest of them take all the seuerall cases propounded throughout that lawe and giue diuerse or cleane contrarie decisions to that which is there giuen and they shall thereby easily finde themselues either ridiculous absurde or vniust lawgiuers The most of them are such as haue happened may happen in Church gouernment If they can finde the decision of them in the worde of God directly we will then abandon all other Canons and onely followe theirs The Church may not be without lawes in externall gouernment and to referre all to the gouernours will were a steppe to all tyrannie and insolencie As for the slaunder to call Christian Magistrates or once to compare them to maisters of the stewes they being the Ecclesiasticall lawes of this Realme is a more filthie and beastly phrase of speech Aconitum spunia Cerberi then Cerberus the hound of hell could spewe But we are too wel acquainted with these fowle blasphemous mouthes it is but sutable to the opinion they cary of the supreme Christian Magistrates and of their lawes Ecclesiasticall or Common The 4. Demonstration They that being inferiors doe tyrannize ouer their superiors Demonstration ought not to rule the Church but such as they doe tyrannize ouer the ministers to whom they are inferiours by the Canon lawe ergo they ought not to rule the Church This is not the issue in question Remonstrance for we say not that they are to rule the Church but are ministers of iustice according to the ordinances of the Church The Maior is not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 yet true so long as they doe tyrannize ouer their superiours they ought not to rule the Church To the Minor therefore They who execute their office with correspondence to their dutie and according to lawes doe not tyrannize neither are they in place of iustice inferiour but are inferiour 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in respect of the dignitie of the office of the ministerie But this office of ministerie doth not alwaies worthie the person aboue euery calling though not so sacred else should euery ministers person be aboue any Lorde or the Prince himselfe that chiefly dealeth but in matters of this life Besides surrogatus sapit naturam surrogantis If then the bishop who doth appoint them be aboue an ordinarie minister then are they also In place of iustice a meane Gentleman is superiour to a Duke conuented and so is a poore Constable in matters of his office by reason of them who giue the authoritie and whose persons they beare But thus we turne it home againe vpon themselues They that being inferiours doe gouerne the superiours according to their owne will Retortion without any direction of lawes they doe proudly tyrannize and consequently neither are to rule the Church nor in the Church But your Lay elders being of inferiour calling as your selues confesse to your Pastors and Doctors and much more to the whole Congregation doe gouerne them euen to the displacing or censuring them according to their owne wils and discretions without all direction of lawes which is tyrannie and their platformes doe abrogate all lawes but of their owne making which are not yet framed and in deede experience teacheth that their Consistories will not willingly tie themselues to any set lawes in their gouernment which maketh their decrees concerning diuers persons where the matter neuerthelesse is the selfe same to be so diuers and contrarie ergo Your laie elders doe proudly tyrannize and so neither are to rule the Church nor in the Church The 5. Demonstration They who liue by the faults of men are not fit to rule the Church Demonstration But all Chancellors Officials Commissaries doe so Ergo To the Maior It is very false if it bee meant per accidens to liue by faults Remonstrance as here it must needs be for in this sort doe all iudges iudiciall officers and ministers hauing fees liue by the wrong that the one partie doth to the other So the clerkes of the crowne of gaole deliuerie and of peace doe liue by the pleas against traitors murderers felons and other malefactors c. and yet lawfull in the common weale why not the like in the Church Nemo militat proprijs stipendijs To the Minor O rash and temerarious iudgement What art thou that iudgest an other mans seruant you may remember Horace saying Mendax infamia terret Quem nisimendosum mendacem They do not liue but by honest fees though they grew by occasion of faults as the least part of them in deed doth if any doe and therefore the Minor very false and slaunderous The matters whereupon their fees doe rise are either beneficiall tending to the title and maintenance of the ministerie or testamentarie tending to the performance of the deads will or
your cures when you are at Synodes at your Classies at Termes at Parliamentes in visiting your friendes in halfe a dozen shires The 3. Demonstration That which is from Antichrist is vnlawfull Demonstration To haue more then one is from Antichrist Ergo vnlawfull I may reason also thus euen with as great probabilitie To follow the example of S. Paul is to follow Christ Remonstrance To haue more charges to looke vnto then one is to follow S. Paul cura omnium ecclesiarum incumbit mihi I beare a care of all Churches Ergo to haue more charges then one is to folow Christ Ergo it is not simpliciter euil to haue more charges then one For none can follow two contrary masters Christ Antichrist neither is it absolutely to haue more charges then one deriued from Antichrist and therefore your Minor is false The 4. Demonstration That which declareth a minister to be more desirous of the fleece then to profit the flocke that is vnlawful But moe charges then one is so Ergo. Demonstration This fallacie is non causa pro causa Remonstrance To haue more charges then one proceedeth not from 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 couetise of more but from 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sufficiencie or competencie of liuing and from priuiledge fauour of the law For they that preach the Gospell must liue of the Gospel as also the Geneua note vpon these words 1. Timoth. 5.17 Qui benè praesunt presbyteri duplici honore digni sunt that is they must haue sufficiēt maintenance But that expositiō is not the only meaning of the text for double honour is something more then sufficient maintenance the proportion is double 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Now double is more then sufficient and honor presupposeth maintenance or els it wil be very single honor The 5. Demonstration He may not haue more charges Demonstrator vnlesse he be willing to be quartered that euery charge may haue a peece The Demonstrator is at great coste and charges to bestowe this argument Remonstrance but I take it that if euery quarter of the Citie had a quarter of him that made this Demonstration and many like to this whatsoeuer came to the H. mans part he could not boast of the least fraction vna quarta one fourth part of an honest man The 6. Demonstration or Allegation Hooper vpon the 8. commandement reckoneth them among theeues and their actions theeuerie Demonstration by that commandement His wordes are 76. pag. super 8. com Such as liue of spirituallty thes Remonstrance c. who do neglect their dutie in teaching office commit sacriledge he speaketh against vnable men or those who haue more then competency with vndesert The 2. Assertion of the Demonstrator One minister may not haue soueraigne authoritie and Lordship ouer his fellowe ministers Demonstration The Demonstrator cannot distinguish betweene soueraigntie dominion Remonstrance or entier Lordship which is one thing and superioritie or authoritie ouer others which are different things both in Church and Common-wealth The 1. Demonstration They that haue their commission indifferently giuen them without difference are equall Demonstration and not one aboue another But such is the commission of all Ministers 28. Matth. 19.20 ergo equall not one aboue another To the Maior Although par in parem non habet imperium Remonstrance touching the commission yet in other respects in comparably they may be superior one vnto another as experience daily teacheth If you were in a commission of peace c. with my Lorde Treasurer would you be his equall therefore and as good as he To the Minor There are two commissions included in 28. Matth. One as they were Apostles chiefe builders and planters of Churches in which respect they had also gouerment authoritie ouer them and such they also gaue to bishops of places as Timothie and Titus whome they so ordeined Another in that they are also Pastors and herein euery minister is their successor as bishops only in the other respect The one bringeth equalitie in the essence for the exercise of the ministerie the other an inequalitie of authoritie rule that are exercised in the Church and must be for gouernment and order An instance is the very example of the Apostles whereof some were chief pillars chiefe Apostles Iames a standing superior amongst the Apostles at Ierusalem Act. 15. 2. Cor. 12. Bishops and ministers are for their ministerie equal but for order policie of the Church in gouernment vnequal This is both Caluins and Bezaes answer The 2. Demonstration That which Christ hath directly forbidden is for euer vnlawfull Demonstration But Christ hath directly forbidden this dominion of one minister ouer an other Matth. 20.25 Luc. 22.25 Ergo To the Maior This is directly auerred for that is directly forbidden Remonstrance which by one of the 10. commandements or by some new commandement or speciall forbode is forbidden not that alwaies which in the letter of the word seemeth forbidden Els were it not lawful to sweare at al nor to cal any mā your father on earth nor to preach to the Gentiles Christ forbiddeth arrogant dominion or domination not all authoritie Absolute tyrannicall dominiō is forbidden among all christiās Aristot in his politikes maketh 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the dominion of Barbarians To your places the answer is Our Sauiour destroyeth not there either his owne primacie or the superioritie of the Apostles ouer other callings ecclesiasticall inferiour but rather establisheth it attempering them neuertheles to humilitie He that is great or will be great amongst you 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Let him be your seruant or as Luke 22. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 he that is greatest let him be as punie 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the chiefest as he that serueth he doth not deuest himselfe of lawful superioritie but willeth them after his owne example to be inuested with humilitie for he himselfe did not degrade himselfe from his supremacie when by washing of their feete he serued them But because this is a matter that they do no lesse insist vpō and applaud vnto themselues in then the papists doe in their Hoc est corpus meum I wil craue leaue that I may a litle dilate hereupon further then that breuitie requireth which I first propounded to my self In those two places of S. Mathew S. Luke are to be cōsidered both what Christ reprooued also the general doctrine which by that occasion he deliuered If both the stories be to be vnderstood of one action then must we interprete that the contention of all the Apostles who of them should be the greatest mentioned by Luke had his original occasion of the request of Zebedees children at which the other Apostles tooke indignation as Mathew testifieth both they and all the Apostles dreamed of an earthly kingdom of Christes and therefore to sit at his right hand and at his
left and to be the greatest was an honour and ciuil preheminence and authoritie next vnto Christ in such his kingdome that they shot at He reprooued therefore this erroneous conceit and for thinking that ciuil iurisdiction should appertaine to them as they were apostles and drew them to another consideration of his heauenly kingdome If they desired that to be giuen them to haue the very condition state of their persons so aduanced with earthly honor authoritie ciuil in regard of some speciall affection which each of thē seuerally supposed Christ did beare vnto him in this respect was it their ambition the was reprooued But if ech of thē thoght such an honor due to himself by reasō of some excellēt qualities aboue others which he fansied to be in himself then was their arrogancie and want of humilitie withall rebuked And lastly 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the brawle contention that all the apostles burst foorth into about this matter was by our Sauiour taxed and blamed Now the BB. in this church of England do not claime any ciuil iurisdiction or authoritie to be incident to their callings although if as citizens of the common weale subiects some such be imposed vpon them by the prince as they may not lawfully refuse so we know they may lawdablie vse it But if either erroneously any of them should thinke ciuil iurisdiction of or vnder earthly princes to belong vnto them as successors of the apostles or if they seeke after any authoritie whatsoeuer ambitiously arrogantly or contentiously such should iustly incurre our Sauiors censure and reproofe in this place In that by the law and customes of the land they haue the title of lordes this is not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 simplie in it selfe in regard of their bishoprikes but by reason of the Baronries which are annexed of old vnto those dignities yet it is but a mere title of external honor as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 with the Gręcians Dominus with the Latins without any authoritie or iurisdiction annexed For there is neuer a lord in the land either of the ecclesiastical or ciuill state that hath any iote of authoritie or iurisdiction in him as he is a Baron Neuertheles the apostles and BB. their successors are not therfore without all rule superioritie for they are termed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ouerseers 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 gouernements or gouernors 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 men set ouer others 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 rulers guides or directers 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 feeders rulers which they cannot be except they haue some rule gouernment authoritie But this rule and authoritie is but ecclesiasticall whereas that which was affected by the apostles was ciuill which ecclesiastical authoritie whether it be wholy or in part condemned by that generall doctrine there deliuered by our Sauior doth now rest to be considered We are therfore in these words Vos autē non sic it shal not be so amongst you to note these two things viz. vnto whom such prohibition reacheth what rule it is which is there forbidden First it was not spoken to the apostles as they represented the whole Church as may appeare by the example the Christ propoundeth to thē of his own abasing of himself Neither was it forbiddē so to euerie one of them seuerallie as if it might haue bene permitted to them all together or to the greater part of them Quia nihil est in composito quod non est in simplicibus vel actu vel saltem habitudine If no one of thē might exercise such rule nor any part of it thē cannot they altogether haue it neither yet was the prohibition personall to them for then it would follow that albeit no one of them might haue authoritie ouer the rest yet their successours neuerthelesse whether more properly taken as bishops or generally as all ministers of the word might haue had such authoritie as is there forbidden which were absurd to imagine so that the prohibition reacheth to thē all to euery one of them to their successours also The whole difficultie therfore now resteth in this what kind of authoritie or rule either ecclesiastical or ciuil it is which vnder the words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is forbidden And because there are many resemblāces between ecclesiastical ciuil authoritie the exact laying foorth of ciuil authoritie serueth aptly for the vnderstanding of the other I wil distribute ciuil or temperal authoritie into his parts differēces according to Arist other Politiciās Authoritie ciuil or temporal as we speake is either oeconomical such as is exercised within the limits of one family or Politicall ouer greater societies Oeconomicall is either 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of the husband ouer the wife being the most moderate Or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the authoritie of the father ouer the children being more ample or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which is of two sortes either of the housholder ouer such of his houshold as bee of condition free men and is lesse milde then the other two or of the Lord ouer his bondmen and villaines which is most seuere and absolute of all the others Politicall authoritie is either supreme that is Soueraigne or els subordinate and delegated Soueraigne or supreme is either Absolute called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which is of two sortes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is Seigneuriall such as the good Emperors of Rome had and vsed who though they had all authoritie in thē without restraint so that their word was a law yet did they vse it according to the rules of ciuill honestie iustice or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 tyrannous where not onely their will is a law but they also vse it contrary to all rules of ciuill honestie or iustice as the Empire of the Turkes Russes and other Barbarians or limited by certaine boundes of lawes That which is Soueraigne and yet limited is also of two kindes either wholy limited by lawes as is the authoritie of ordinarie chiefe magistrates in all free common weales as the dukes of Venice c. or restrained but in part as for the most part in all monarchies and kingdoms For albeit kings and such soueraigne Monarches are so tied to lawes as that they cannot dispose of their subiects liues or liuelihood and goods contrary to them yet are they at libertie to allowe or disallow lawes to be made to enhance or decrie the price or standerd of their coines to pardon offenders condemned by law and to make warre or peace truce or league Those which haue subordinate or delegated authoritie by the supreme magistrate they may not claime nor exercise more then is allowed vnto thē either by commissiō or by law Of all these authorities there is none as I take it simply vnlawfull but the tyrannicall gouernment which maketh self-wil a law And therefore this both here and also by other places
is simply forbidden to all Christians both in ciuill ecclesiastical gouernment Now to apply these more neerely by the authoritie the bishops haue in this realme a matter so impugned by these men It cannot be resembled vnto oeconomicall albeit in some sence a bishop is called the father of those in his charge and the husband of that church whereof he is bishop that for two causes First in that his authoritie is not contained in the straites of one familie but reacheth ouer many seuerall families and congregations of people Another for that the bishops authoritie is tied by lawes not only what not to do but he is appointed also what to doe whereas oeconomicall authoritie hath no publike lawes positiue commaunding a man howe to gouerne his familie but onely negatiue what they may not doe in that gouernment as not to wound nor kill wife childe nor seruant c. As for supreme authoritie whether Ciuill or Ecclesiasticall absolute or limited our bishops neither haue nor claime It is that which they cōdemne in the Pope by this place as well for that as successor of the Apostles he claimeth both swordes all earthly kingdomes to be his to dispose sinon actu saltem habitu as Bellarmin distinguisheth as for that in matters Ecclesiasticall he claimeth and vsurpeth not onely Seigneuriall but euen tyrannicall authoritie For he saith he may iudge all and be iudged by none may carry millions of soules to hell and none may say to him Domine curita facis Sir why doe you so may command Angels to carry and recarry soules at his pleasure may pardon sinnes past to come for so long or short a time as him listeth and in matters of Ecclesiastical liuings nay in all causes may doe what he list and therefore is iustly condemned by this place as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 one exercising a Lordly absolute and tyrannous authoritie There resteth then vnto bishops of this Realme none other but subordinate or delegated authoritie which they haue partly from God partly from the soueraigne christian Magistrate From God they haue either first to plant or else to gouerne and direct Churches already planted to ordeine ministers and deacons and likewise the vse of the keies either by loosing the penitent according to Gods worde or binding the impenitent which last is done by admonition reprehension suspension excōmunication and by anathematisme The three first of which censures are with vs euen in practise common to all ministers of the word so farre as suspension is taken for debarring from the sacramēt of the supper The last two though by all practise of antiquitie in purer times they were principally and especially attributed to bishops yet not so but that other ministers of the worde vnto which the keies are annexed may not vnlawfully herein concurre with them if the lawes of the Church for weightie causes doe not otherwise dispose which they haue done here in England as I take it by reason of the sundrie ciuill effects which excommunication and anathematisme by lawe doe worke and are such as without great inconuenience and confusion cannot be permitted to euery minister in his cure that haue but slender skil no direction of lawe in this behalfe none autentique seales to certifie of record nor temporalities to be seised for not performance of the Queenes writtes that lie in such cases as de cautione admittenda de excommunicato deliberando c. And these former be the pointes wherein bishops authoritie is from God and not of man but now from the soueraigne Prince by the mediating of lawes bishops haue set downe vnto them the places where the compasse of territorie howe farre the manner howe with other circumstances of executing both the former authorities and also their iurisdiction Likewise they haue assistance of their iurisdiction sundrie waies from the Prince and lawes for the sounder execution thereof and better bridling of offenders as to burne an Heretike to imprison a person obstinately remaining excommunicate aboue 40. daies with such like Lastly they haue the heads and matters wherein their iurisdiction is occupied by and from the Christian Magistrates authoritie in whome as supreme Gouernour all iurisdiction within her dominions aswell Ecclesiasticall as Ciuill by Gods and mans lawe is inuested Such matters in this Church of England so attributed to bishops are causes of titles of benefices matters of maintenance for Ministers vpholding of Churches and Churchyardes of matrimoniall contracts and diuorces testamentarie diffamatorie where there is breach of charitie and none action lieth thereupon at the Common lawe or lastly punishing of sundrie crimes termed Ecclesiasticall being such as are not at all punishable at the Common law or els are left by lawe to be punished by either authoritie And in this respect may this part of bishoply function not vntruely be saide to be deriued from the supreme Christian Magistrates authoritie and supremacie which they haue vnder God By which may appeare both the vndutifulnes of Popish Bishops and of the factious Consistorials the first whereof deriueth their iurisdictions Ecclesiasticall within all Christian kingdomes from the Pope and the other will needes deriue theirs immediately from God and that in larger manner and in moe matters then bishops in England may any way exercise for they of the faction attribute therein no more vnto soueraigne Princes but to be gouerned in that behalfe by them and to defende the exercise thereof by their temporall sworde whereas our bishops cannot make any newe Ecclesiasticall decrees without the Princes authoritie both precedent and subsequent and in the whole course of their function are tied strictly and precisely to obseruation of due course of lawe which if either negligently or wilfully they shall violate it is remediable by appellation the last resorte wherein is to the Soueraigne Prince her selfe who heareth and finally determineth it by her Iudges delegated So that by this discourse it plainely appeareth that our Bishops neyther clayme nor yet exercise any ciuill authoritie at all as Bishops that their authoritie Ecclesiasticall is but subordinate vnder God and the Prince moderated exactly both positiuely and priuatiuely by good lawes deriued for the moste parte from the Prince and reformable by her Not supreme not absolute not tyrannicall not Seigneuriall nor Lordely according to the Rulers luste And therefore no way touched or meant much lesse by these places condemned as the Demonstrators Assumption more boldely then eyther skillfully or truely importeth But out of these groundes thus wee reason and bende the nose of the Cannon against themselues If the bishops authoritie be condemned by these two places as they would inferre then is all greater and more absolute authoritie exercised by persons Ecclesiasticall much more to be condemned But your selues doe claime and exercise greater and more absolute authoritie then the bishops namely to haue your Consistoriall iurisdiction not deriued from the Princes authoritie but supreme vnder God and that in all
causes of doctrine or manners so farre as appertaineth to conscience to make lawes and orders Ecclesiasticall without her knowledge or consent to sitte and determine as your selues iudge best without any guiding of lawes to haue your sentences once giueÌ„ to stand in force though they be appealed from vntil they be in the last instaÌ„ce reuersed to excommunicate your Soueraigne consequently to discharge your selues for that time of all actuall obedience to call your Synodes and Classies without her writte and to haue the last appellation not to runne vnto the Prince but vnto a nationall Synode All which being true notes of soueraigntie in iurisdiction are at least 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Lordly or Seigneuriall if not tyrannicall ergo that which is by you claimed and exercised is in deede by Christ there condemned Neither is it the bare ciuill title of Lorde which is giuen to bishops without any authoritie in that respect that will helpe you against vs here for the Scripture giueth not lawes to wordes but to the matters themselues Yours is Lordlines in deed when you both practise these things against her Maiesties royall supremacie and will haue her to throwe her scepter downe and to licke the dust of the feete of your Church viz. your Presbyterie an epitome or representation of euery seuerall Congregation or Church The 3. Demonstration They that may not be Lords ouer Gods people much lesse may be Lordes ouer the ministers Demonstration who are aboue the people but the first is true ergo the second To the Maior The Maior with a litle more helpe will make themselues Lordes Remonstrance For I doe assure you this no Bishop is Lord ouer the people but a Lorde in respect of his owne Baronrie It is more to be aboue the people in deede then to be a Lord vnto the people in phrase of speech or obsequious worde Nowe forsooth the Ministers are aboue the people that is their betters and in authoritie ouer them as this Maior doth import To the Minor Lordlines is one thing in malam partem Lordship is another S. Peter say you forbiddeth it 1. Pet. 5.3 on whome you say we father Lordlines to be Lordes of Gods heritage 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Nay Peter writeth to the bishops or gouerning pastorall Elders such as himselfe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I a fellowe elder not to tyrannize ouer the flocke but to be example to the faithfull The place of Peter and your collection maketh against your selues Retortion To say ministers may haue dominion ouer the people but Ministers may not haue dominion ouer ministers that is Ministers may rule and not be ruled The drift of the place is Ministers may not tyrannize or haue absolute commaund ouer the people or ouer one another I referre me to the answere made to the second demonstration of this matter The 4. Allegation or Demonstration It is ordeined that euery mans fault must be heard Demonstra Cypr. lib. 1. epi. 3. Remonstrance where the accusers and witnesses are ergo euery Minister had authoritie ouer his flocke The Illatiue is ergo euery bishop hath his limited proper iurisdiction Cyprian complained thus Paucis desperatis minor videtur esse authoritas episcoporum in Africa Certaine desperat companions thought worse of the bishops authoritie in Afrike then else where He founde fault with those that went to Rome out of the prouince not for going out of the Parish with the cause as you insinuate The 5. Allegation Bishops in all the worlde are equall to Parish ministers Demonstrat Luth. aduer Papat à Satana fundat Remonstrance some are of better giftes which giftes cause no Lordship Luther confuteth the supremacie of the bishop of Rome Papam non esse caput christianitatis Dominum mundi And that all bishops whether of Eugub or Rome Rheg or Constantinople Alexand Tauis are equall for the ministerie and heires of the See Apostolike The 6. Allegation The Ministers in the Apostolike Church none aboue other Demonstrat Muscu â—e com de verbi minist were subiect to no Head nor President That is no vniuersall Head otherwise Musculus vpon the 20. Remonstrance of Matth. alloweth Gouernors Presidents Rulers in the church The 7. Allegation A Bishop taking the honour from the Ministers Demonstra Idem super 2. Thess 8.2 was the first steppe to Papacie That is translated from them to erect a newe Ministerie Remonstrance or an illimitable authoritie in the Church which a bishoprike vnder the Gospell is not neither of the 7. steppes to Papacie The 8. Allegation Christ did forbid the Apostles primacie and dominion Demonstraet Confess Holuet That is absolute worldly auaritious ambiti ous dominion Remonstrance not all moderate gouernment and authoritie whatsoeuer Remonstrance The 9. Allegation Equall power is giuen to all Ministers sauing for order Demonstrat Confe Hel. c. 18. Order includeth superioritie and excludeth not dignitie Remonstr Nullus dominium in episcopos vsurpauit The 1. Obiection of the Demonstrator Christ 20. Demonstration Matth. 25. v. forbiddeth ambition and not dominion as Musculus doth expound Answere of the Demonstrator Caluine and others expounde it against superioritie but admitte that dominion is ambition because it causeth a man to aspire aboue his fellowe Ministers There is no witte in this misshapen answere Remonstrance with reply the obiection doth not permit so much vnto you dominion in the better part taken for rule is most contrarying to ambition It must be vniust dominion that causeth ambition as to conspire against his superior and to aspire to an higher place or seate your factious study may be called ambition The 2. Obiection of the Demonstrator The Greeke worde signifieth rule with oppression Demonstration which is forbidden Answere of the Demonstrator That is not so Luke 22.25 v. vseth the single verbe to rule the sonnes of Zebedee desired not to oppresse but to rule It is certaine Remonstrance with reply one place must expounde the other the tenor of the text expoundeth all 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is one and consignificant termes which is absolutely tyrannously or ambitiously to gouerne and rule or violently to rule and ouerrule or else an absurd interpretation will follow of the word 19. Act. 16. v. 19. Act. 16. v. The man in whome the ill spirite was ranne vpon the vagabond Iewes and ouercame them and preuailed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 had violent dominion and maisterie ouer them or 1. Pet. 5.3 v. not as exercising a proude dominion ouer the Lordes heritage If the worde signifie not so S. Peter should forewarne them of that which yourselues say is no fault therefore it is as cleare as noone day the children of Zebedee and the Apostles were schooled for that same 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 contentious and ambitious desire of ruling and that ciuilly and absolutely The 3. Obiection of the Demonstrator
meane for the practise of their Religion and the outward profession was not authorized If you meane the former say plainely you meane Sanhedrim or Synagoga if Sanhedrim that either as politicall onely or political and Ecclesiastical together and that againe either as the first institution supposed by some or as the deprauation was at the comming of Christ for what was that else but a mixt and compound Presbyterie as in Christs time And then Christ should send vs to the Synagogue which Caluin liketh not and wee should require a gift and an altar as it is Matth. 5.24 v. So this is the greatest improbabilitie in the worlde viz. that as it was amongst the olde or latest Iewes so it must bee in Christs Church Now vnto the reason of the Maior That it is translated vnto vs from them c. You must proue the translation and shewe in one demonstration time place c or any other circumstance to euince it or prooue the erection or ordination of this discipline in steade of that Otherwise to say there was an allusion vnto that or a respectiue looking of Christ vpon that is but a meere collusion with Gods trueth To say 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which was a session of 72. with the prince c was the Image of your imagined Presbyterie especially a corruption and not to be founde in Scripture but in the Thalmud is to carie away the matter with a bolde forehead and impudent outfacing This I haue also spoken vnto afore in this Chapter To the Minor This is not ad idem For it is one thing 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 another thing with vs to be excommunicate as for the place of Iohn 9. it deciphreth not whether one or many had authoritie to cast out of the Synagogue but that a decree was so made that he should be cast out not telling how or by how many it was to be executed Finally in saying the Sanhedrim had nothing ceremoniall belike it had the more iudiciall or morall whether it were the one or other it is questionlesse howe it was a corruption of a better thing but caried not the resemblance of the thing which you would haue as is sufficiently afore shewed If Iudicial we are no Iewes and therefore not tied to it if Morall then shew the Commandement and retaine it not by peece meele but either wholy or if but in part say you breake therein the Morall lawe of God The 6. Allegation or Demonstration Cyprian lib. 3. ep 10. would doe nothing in his charge without counsel of Elders Demonstrat and consent of people His meaning is he would do nothing me a priuatim sententia Remonstrance by any domesticall determinations but with the priuitie and counsell and consent of the cleargie that is but in consistorie openly or which was consulted and concluded vpon in Synode publickely before so that nothing should be preiudiciall But these were Ministers that assisted him a Bishop The 7. Demonstration or Allegation The Elders and other officers haue power to absolue as wel as the Bishops Demonstrat Cypr. epist 14. Remonstrance Lib. 3. epist 14. You quote not the booke as for the place it maketh against the presumption of your Elders or any pastoral Elders who gaue ius communicationis without the leaue of the Bishop as certaine then did As for the wordes manus impositionem Episcopi cleri it strengtheneth the hande of authoritie in a Bishop who is perpetual President of his clergie The 8. Allegation or Demonstration For asmuch as absolution longeth vnto all I dare not doe it Demonstrat Idem epist 19. Remonstrance Cyprian saith Praeiudicare ego solum mihi rem communem vendicare non audeo In case the absolution of certaine did concerne many as wel as himselfe he would not doe that to restore the offenders to their state The 9. Allegation or Demonstration If there be any that hath done such a fault that is to be put away from partaking prayer of the Church c. Demonstrat Tertul. apolog cap. 39. there doe beare rule certaine approoued Elders of the Church The wordes Summum futuri iudicij praeiudicium est Remonstrance si quis ita deliquerit vt à communicatione orationis conuentus omnis sancti commercij relegetur praesident probati quique seniores honorem istum non pretio sed testimonio adepti The wordes following giue not the censure of excommunication to these Elders or arbiters any time much lesse perpetually if at that time of persecution they had a censure ouer maners But let it be prooued that they were not Ministers of the worde and Sacraments but meere annual officers and without maintenance of the Church as yours are The 10. Allegation or Demonstration Demonstrat It helpeth much to make the partie ashamed that he be excommnnicate by the whole Church Augustin lib. 3. contra epistol Parmen the Donat. as also in his bookes of Baptisme against Donatists often Tunc timore percutitur pudore sanatur cum ab vniuersa Ecclesia anathematizatum se cernens Remonstrance so are the wordes when the whole Church shall expell and blame him by their iudgement also as the magistrate by his owne censure The 11. Allegation or Demonstration The Elders haue interest in other censures Demonstrat Hierom epist 1. ad Demetriadē and the Church it selfe in excommunication The wordes are We speake not of all but of such as sometimes the Church it selfe blameth Remonstrance whom sometime it casts away and against whome the censure of Bishops Presbyterorum viz. of Ministers is sharpe Here is no speciall mention of excommunication nor interest of any vnto it much lesse the interest of lay Elders Wee graunt that Bishops had the assistance of Ministers about them both in censures and other matters and so may haue but this argueth not your Elderships interest nor that a Bishop alone may not doe it where the order of the whole Church hath so receiued it The 12. Demonstration or Allegation Demonstrat Bucer de reg Christ li. 1. ca. 9. Paul accuseth the Corinthians because the whole Church had not excommunicate the incestuous person The words are Remonstrance Quod non incestum illum consortio suo eiecissent Because the Corinthians were swollen and had kept companie with such an incestuous person But if the whole Church shoulde doe it then there needes none Eldership neither is this their authoritie otherwise the Church might not vsurpe it from them And if it be the whole Churches the Eldership may not preiudicate them by their determinations aforehand For if they disagree whether shall stand in force The 13. Allegation or Demonstration Demonstrat P. Mart. 1. cor 5. The Elders had the gouernment in excommunication P. Martyr saith there were two sorts of Elders Remonstrance the one which did teach and minister the Sacraments and did gouerne with the Bishops which Elders we now haue who
such other sophistications to plaister vp your assertions with vntrueth videlicet as these and such like As when you argue from your Puritane Idaea of gouernment out of the 14. Rom. All lawfull things are of faith all lawfull things of faith are warranted by the worde Ergo all lawfull things are warranted by the worde and consequently euery lawfull action in gouernment of the Church Where the conclusion is vniuersall in the third figure and Medius terminus videlicet lawfull things is in the conclusion contrarie to all rule of reasoning and yet the Demonstrator misseth of S. Pauls wordes which are Quicquid non ex fide peccatum est All that is not of faith is sinne Or where as you argue Hypotheticallie out of the 4. Ephes If all needfull gifts be appropriate to other ministeries then is the Archbishops ministerie vnlawfull but they are Ergo the Archbishops vnlawfull And T. C. before you argueth Categorically after this sort Those functions onely are sufficient for the Church which haue gifts needfull but all those Ephes 4. and Cor. 1.12 haue gifts needfull Ergo they are onely sufficient Which is as good a conclusion as if one of you did argue thus Those things onely are sufficient to saluation which are contained in the Scripture But all those things in the Aue Marie are contained in the Scriptures Ergo those things onely in the Aue Marie are sufficient to saluation Or as cunningly after this sort Those onely are men which are endued with reason But all the Costerdmongers in London are endued with reason Ergo the Costerdmongers in London are the onely men Or where you goe about to prooue that none is ordinable to the ministerie vnlesse he haue a benefice As was the 12. place for Mathias so is a certaine place for euery church officer But Mathias was not ordained till Iudas had made it voyd by hanging himselfe Ergo none is to be ordained before the place be voyd Adde vnto this by such maner of Resignation as hanging of himself Or when another Apostleship falleth voide Or when euery 12. place is voyd Or when Mathias commeth againe to be chosen into Iudas place The Argument leapeth from one predicament to another from the predicament Agere to Vbi They ordained him to an office Ergo to a place and a certaine place as if the Apostles were not to preach 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in all the world Or when you will euince indefatigable residence of the Minister on the place out of the 1. Samuel 9. Elie the priest sate vpon a stoole by one of the postes of the Temple Ergo a Minister must be resident and belike must also as he did sit downe vpon a stoole Or this A Shepeheard must feede a Minister is a Shepeheard Ergo he must corporally and continually reside without naturall or legall dispensation for his absence As if you had sayd a Minister to be a Shepeheard otherwise then Metaphoricallie for a king also is a shepeheard but in a Metaphor who may law fully depute others to gouerne and to feede Or against non Residence out of the 1. Thes 1.17 v. Satan hindered mee Satan is the cause of non Residence Ergo vnlawfull where the Demonstrator maketh S. Paul to write good diuinitie Satan hindred me that is after the Demonstrators skill Satan caused me to doe an vngodly and vnlawfull thing whereas S. Paul his meaning is Satan raised persecution against me Or as fitly and perfectly after this sort for your popular elections and choise of ministers from the 8. Num. 9. v. The children of Israel put their handes vpon the heads of the Leuites The Leuites put their hands vpon the heads of bullocks Ergo the people must lay their hands on the heads of the Ministers Then adde vnto this The Ministers must lay their hands on the heads of bullocks T. C. taught you to reason thus from the ceremonie to the Gospell Et vitulo tu dignus hic Or when it pleaseth you to establish the presbyterie you interprete roundly Dic ecclesiae tell the Church that is the Eldership or Aldermanship of the Church yea and goe farther for the authoritie of this venerable Eldership out of the 49. Esay Kings and Queenes shall worship thee with their face towards the earth and shall licke vp the dust of thy feete c. Ergo great homage and honour shall be done to the Eldership Or in that place where you ouerthrow all standing superioritie of Ministers ouer Ministers you demonstrate after this fashion A bishop is called Episcopus An ordinarie Minister is called Episcopus Ergo all one Or a Bishop and an ordinarie Minister must haue one qualitie Ergo a parish Bishop and a diocoesan Bishop are all one thing Or all Bishops are equall in commission of the Ministerie Ergo equal in whatsoeuer commission of authoritie Or In the beginning for a while a Bishop and a priest or Minister were all one Ergo they must continue all one For in the Apostles time was the change and that same I am of Paul I am of Cephas was the occasion of the change and finally the decree of all the world at least as S. Hierome thinketh was the approbation of the change This were strange reasoning In the beginning Kings and priests were all one ergo they must continne all one In the beginning such was the simplicitie c. Great lords sonnes as Iacob c. kept their fathers sheepe ergo noble mens children mus◠keepe their fathers sheepe In the beginning they baptized in Riuers ergo men must carie their children downe to be christened in Riuers Or in another where you demonstrate agaynst the superioritie of Archbishops If the Pope be odious the Archbishop is odious also as who would say If the vnmeasurable and illimitable power be vnlawfull Ergo a modest and limited superioritie by law is vnlawfull also Finiti ad Infinitum nulla est proportio Or The Archbishops office and name is vnknowen to vs Puritanes Ergo vnknowen and vnheard of in the Church You shall well know that both the name and equitie of the name and thing is knowen and allowed of in Gods Church Or where it pleaseth you to say Caluin saieth there were gouernours of order not of superioritie Ergo this is true as if it were truly sayd all gouernment of superioritie is gouernment of disorder and that these were opposite Or in the demonstration To prooue Doctor and Pastor to be distinguished you dispute cunningly thus Male and female are distinct in sexe or kind Gal. 3. Ergo Doctor and Pastor must be distinct why not then in sex or kind with many other like Paralogismes as in your seuerall Chapters shal be vnfolded the whole Demonstration being nothing els but a bundle of absurdities Howbeit the booke thereof is a thing so preciously esteemed by the author himself so magnified by his folowers as worthy to be set vpon the highest pinacle of this Church new reformed for which cause hee giueth
Episcopo suo nec Ecclesiasticam disciplinam cum fide quiete iuxta praecepta Domini continerent vt relictis Domini sacerdotibus contra Euangelicam disciplinam noua traditio sacrilegae institutionis exurgat Note whether these wordes of Cyprian concerne not our times Nowe it is cleare whence T. C. his faction ariseth howe it tooke rooting howe it is hardened He and his crue haue withdrawne certaine who of good zeale professe the name of Christ from the loue and obedience of their Superior or Pastor or Bishop and haue dangerously drawne them into contempt of Ecclesiasticall discipline to breake from the faith and allegeance of the Lordes precepts that by forsaking of the Lorde his Priestes contrarie to the Euangelicall discipline they might begin a newe platforme of sacrilegious institution of their own discipline Obserue last of all that Ecclesiasticall discipline Euangelicall discipline which S. Cyprian soundeth farre otherwise then the newe Tetrarchie of Doctors Pastors Elders and Deacons discipline for it is taken for the doctrine of Christ and his Apostles Yet here of by the way we gather that such as breake foorth from the Bishops gouernment and censures as our schismatikes doe with greatest contempt that may be doe offend against the commandements and the doctrine or discipline of the Gospell and therefore a superioritie of Bishops is a diuine institution by Cyprians iudgement who liued not very long after the Apostles times I might answere Allegare non est probare Allegation is no demonstration least of all of humane authoritie And all this may be granted and nothing gained to the cause Dominus Demonstrator doeth passe away in cloudes of generalitie and concludeth not the question So that in steede of 18. demonstrations there are 18. monsters some without head some without taile some without middle others without arme all without harme not able to affright the veriest foole that is with so much as a false feare of loosing the impregnable fort of the trueth of our cause * ⎠* CAPVT SECVNDVM IN the second chapter followe certaine Maximes of their own or certaine Oracles of one T. C. tanquam ex tripode which if you will not take vpon T.C. his credite you may take it vpon the credite of 20. letters or take vnto you the whole Alphabet to make demonstrations thereby The 1. Proposition No calling is lawfull but which is directly warranted out of the worde to him that executeth it Demonstration The 2. Proposition The name and office of an Archbishop is contrarie to the worde of God The 3. Proposition No man may be ordeined to an office vntill a place be voide as he is fit for Euery one of these propositions hath a speciall aime to the vsuall intended markes of a cauilling Sophister Remonstrance The 1. is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or meere trifling Aristot de reprehens Soph. as Aristotle saith 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Like as a Cuckow to sing alwaies one song as in the former Chapter the Demonstrator trifleth vp and downe The 2. is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a false or starke staring lie 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to make a demonstration of a lie The 3. is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a meere Paradoxe which neuer any but of this newe fantasie said before The saying is A three twisted corde will not easily breake asunder but this thrise twisted cable knappeth asunder If the Demonstrator will onely propound we may lawfully returne these propositions home againe 1. No calling is lawfull but directly warranted to him that executeth it All lay Presbyteri or vnpreaching eldership with the authoritie they attribute vnto it is vnwarranted directly by Gods worde to them that doe execute it Ergo No such calling is lawfull 2. No name of Superioritie for order and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the Church is contrary to the worde The name and office of Archbyshop Archdeacon Deanes are such names and offices of Superioritie Ergo No names and offices of Archbyshop Archdeacon c. are contrary to the worde 3. Paul Barnabas Epaphroditus Andronicus Iunius and others were not forth with limited to a certaine place But Paul Barnabas Philip c. were ordeined Ministers Ergo Certaine were ordeined Ministers not limitted to a place The 1. Demonstration which is a reason of this 1. redoubted Proposition If Iohn were constrained to prooue his ministerie out of the worde when the Priestes accused him Demonstration Then there is no lawfull calling but warranted in the worde but he prooued his calling Ergo no calling lawfull but which is warranted in the worde To the Antecedent This fallacie is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of the consequent Remonstrance The sequele of the Antecedent is to be denyed which is in plainer termes this vz. There is no calling in the newe but is first warranted by some prophecie of the olde Testament To the Assumption But he prooued his ministerie Whether he prooued or did not prooue whether he were accused or not accused the ministerie of Iohn was a lawful ministerie their impeachment there of was not to hinder the execution of his ministerie The warrant rather is the immediate commission from heauen and the prophecie that went of him to exercise his ministerie Howe followeth the Argument à facto adius Or from their constraint to the warrantize of his calling If any proofe should be drawen for or against it can bee other in consequence then this One extraordinarie Minister did vpon occasion of those that cauilled at him prooue his extraordinarie calling out of the worde of God Then euery ordinarie Minister may against wranglers prooue his ordinarie ministerie out of the worde to be the ordinance of God Euen so doe we Or this Iohannes confessus est non negauit Iohn 1.20 Iohn did confesse and denyed not confessed who he was and denied not who hee was Euen so in humilitie we ought to doe and semblably doe Vnlesse it please you to argue after this sort out of the text These things were done in Bethany or Bethabara beyond Iordan or Iohn proued his ministerie in Bethany or Bethabara beyonde Iordan Ergo your ministerie must be proued in Bethany beyond Iordan O then your reason hath a further fetch beyond or on the other side of Iericho or Iordan Or else better after this sort Iohn exercised his ministerie and proued it too without warrantie of an outwarde calling of any that sate in Moses chaire for the people helde him for a Prophet Ergo you haue an exercise of your ministerie without an outwarde calling and may runne before you are sent and the people holde your prophecie and baptisme to be true But this will sauour strongly of Anabaptisme I trowe The 2. Demonstration The callings vnder the Gospel must haue as good warrant as the callings vnder the Law Demonstration But all callings vnder the Lawe except miraculous had direct warrant Ergo. Ridetur chorda qui semper oberrat eadem Remonstrance A
the Archbishops shal be drawen into obloquious hatred as some of your Brownists condemne all church policie and referre to Antichrist and so likewise all our vniuersities are calumniously traduced by you to be the dishes of Antichrist wherein he is serued being colledges of the prophets and seruiceable nurces to the church What manner of reasoning call you this If the name of infinite and illimitable iurisdiction bee odious Foule absuditie of the Demonstrator Ergo the name of that which is bounded within limits must bee odious likewise Or if the name of vniuersall and transcendent power that climeth ouer all be hatefull Ergo the name of a modest and measurable power and superioritie is ful of hatred also This is an absurdity in sight of euery man Finiti ad infinitum nullae est proportio Betweene a thing finite and infinite there is no proportion The repercussiue rather maketh against you thus If the name of so vaste and infinite authority be intolerable in the church Retortion and antichristian the name of a determined and precincted authoritie is tolerable and christian 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 If this followeth vpon that the opposite followeth of contrary or opposite contrariae sunt contrariorum consequentiae Ar. Repraeh Soph. contrary followeth vpon contraryes To the assumption But the name of the Pope is odious say you because of that Antichrist Not because he vsed the name but because hee abused the name the name is odious at this day If you make this a maxime as T.C. and all his fellowes doe viz. whatsoeuer is vsed by the Pope and church of Rome must bee deadly hated for his and their sakes you make a wodden adoe then Though Nero and Caligula abuse the name of God or wil be called Gods being by nature no gods shall not wee therefore inuocate and call vpon the name of God the euerlyuing God Albeit Tarquinius made the name of a King odious in that hee gouerned all domesticis consiliis as Liuie reporteth and by other misdemeanour of himselfe doth it therefore followe wee must detest the name of a King Although the false prophets prophecied lyes in the name of the liuing God shall wee shake of other good prophets for their names sake though the persons degenerate the name may continue vnlesse it be a name of blasphemie wherewith no name is named in our church policie How say you to this If one Pope bee odious because of that one Antichrist Retortion of the argument vpon the Demonstrator then many popes bee odious because of many Antichrists No Archbishop hath so popelike authoritie as you claime no man may propound but your selues and so you haue a negatiue voyce you woulde examine and censure kings you claime to make lawes and orders for the church without the Princes authoritie and your sentences stande not suspended vpon an appellation no Archbishop in her maiesties dominions hath any such authoritie S. Iohn saith there are many antichristes Tertull de prescript aduer haeret Qui pseudoprophetaenisi falsi praedicatores qui pseudo apostoli nisi falsi euang elizatores qui antichristi interim semper nisi Christi rebelles Who are false prophets but false preachers who are false apostles but false gospellers who are Antichrist betweene this and the worlds ende but such who are contumacious and rebellious against Christ who if that you appose your selues against the christiā magistracy holy ministery of Christ prophane the priesthood by erecting a laical presbytery 2. Thes 2. aduance your selues 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the temple against al that is called God 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 against the reuerend Archbishops BB. who beare this iurisdiction for and in the name of Christ and God The demōstrator as it were wearie of demonstration leaueth his forrest bill or long staffe and taketh a shorter paire of codgels into his hande goeth to ob and So. Dolus an virtus quis in hoste requirit what pietie in an aduersarie is this to muster our argument and authorities for vs there can bee litle disaduantage in this for he disputeth pro et contra First out of the defence of the answere to the admonition 318. pag. The 1. obiection of the Demonstrator Clemens alloweth these names as Polidore lib. 4. cap. 12. reporteth Demonstration The Answere of the demonstrator Polidore is but a reporter Clemens is a counterfeite worthy of no credit He that vsed the argument pag. 318. Remonstrance with reply vsed it as a probable testimony for the antiquitie of the name not as infallible ground or certainty to proue the name and thing for that the sayd author or Defendor proueth together with the equitie of the name and thing out of the worde of God sufficiently but you sir deale very handsomly like a mad dogge which biteth any aliue or dead Mortui non mordent the dead bite not him for any thing your profoundnes knoweth Polydore Virgil might haue seene Compendiarium Christianae religionis of Clemens his booke who compiled his owne booke out of such notices which he compiled and robbed from our Librarie bookes in England and therefore it is a probabilitie he had seene the right orthodoxe Clemens not the counterfeit Clemens whose epistles and bastardie no man defendeth But euery Clement with you is a counterfeit Clement Your clemencie and curtesie in arguing thus to and fro is but a counterfeit clemencie The 2. Obiection Erasmus saith Titus was an Archbishop Answere He spake as the times wherein he liued Demonstration but that proueth not that he held him one in deede no more then our naming the Archbishop of Canturburie proueth that we like his authoritie This man the Demonstrator holdeth as good opinion of Erasmus Remonstrance with replie as Bellarmin the Iesuite who termeth him semichristianū as if Erasmus speaketh that which he doeth not beleeue or loquitur secundùm vulgus non ex animi sententia T C. the master and Demonstratour the man at variance But what saith T.C. to this forsooth this Erasmus saith S. Paul did informe Timothie of the office of a Bishop and Titus and Timothie had an office ergo Titus was no Archbishop according to T.C. because he was a Bishop and the man reasons thus in olde earnest As for you and the whole vnlettered sorte of Puritanes and T. C. your leader name the Archbishop when and where and how often you please neither shal you be compeers with Erasmus neither will any wise man hold his authoritie to be more or lesse for you Finally for T.C. who is opinatiue that Titus was neither Archbishop nor Bishop which the scholiast in Greeke doth easily yeeld vnto but rather an Euangelist he is a mad man and wil infinitely deny and reuenge him in the ende Plus potest vnus asinus negare quà m mille Augustini possunt probare An asse may denie more thē a thousand Austines shal be able to proue Yet the
subscription the consent of the Fathers his constitution of Bishops in that large Island of Candie ioyned with the epistle will proue more then T.C. coniecture And how followeth this he was a Preacher of the Gospell or Euangelist ergo none Archbishop was not Idmes an Apostle and Bishop of Ierusalem The 3. Obiection Anacletus sayth Demonstration Iames was first Archbishop of Ierusalem Answere He is forged as our answere to the Papistes haue shewed But Eusebius li. 2. cap. 25. calleth him Bishop and Simeon after him li. 3. cap. 22. and so Irenaeus li 4. ca. 63. Apostles ordeined Bishops euery where making no mention of Archbishops This is the readiest answere that commeth out of your forge Remonstrance with reply Bishop Iewell in his question betweene vs and you vouchsafeth to alledge Anacletus whome you so peremptorily reiect Anacletus saith he that was next after Peter if there be any weight in his word nameth Archbishop Anacletus as neerer vnto those times in his epistle 1. Tom. Concil saith Iames called Iustus was Archbishop of Ierusalem Now say you Eusebius calleth him but Bishop of Ierusalem by the way T.C. giueth or lendeth you a false quotation 22. cap. for 11. cap. ergo no Archbishop It would scare a man to reason with you you do it so cleerely as if a chiefe among Bishops or Archbishop were not a Bishop Howbeit neither Eusebius nor Irenaeus speaketh exclusiuely for euery Archbishop is a Bishop not euery Bishop an Archbishop è conuerso Hîc semper erras To reason from auctorities negatiuely is an affirmatiue impudencie As rightly might you reason and doe wrong to diuine auctoritie Moses made Captaines of 100. and 1000. ergo Moses made not any superiour Magistrate as the 72. Or Christ sent 72. Disciples ergo he sent none of the 12. Apostles or any other officers The 4. Obiection The Councell of Nice Demonstration canon 6. mentioneth a Metropolitane Bishop Answere That proueth nothing it is as much as Bishop of the chiefe Citie You cut off the definition of the Archbishop at the waste Remonstrance with reply for the Councel not onely mentioneth a Metropolitane who is idem re which the Archbishop is but defineth him also Cui conuenit definitio conueniet definitum è contrà Antiqua consuetudo seruetur per Aegyptum Libyam Pentapolim vt Alexandrinus Episcopus horum omnium habeat potestatem 6. ca. Let the olde custome be kept throughout Aegypt Libya Pentapolis that the bishop of Alexandria haue his iutisdictiō or auctoritie ouer them It was then no noueltie but an ancient and primitiue custome What is the Archbishop or Metropolitane bishop one who hath power one who must be primus inter eos first or chiefe 6. can or primate amongest them 33. ca. Apostol quodammodo pro capite 35. ca. Apost 33. can Apostol 35. can Apostol as it were their head head of the rest 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 one that hath care of the whole prouince conc Antio ca. 9. ca. 9. conc Antio What is a Metropolitane bishop but an Archbishop None was to be ordeined a B. without the consent of the Metropolitane bishop This is a great reproofe to him that is not past blushing when he shall alledge that which conuinceth him selfe as this doeth you A litle bringing about will make you confesse in plainenes which you confesse in circumloquution It is but nicetie thus to deale with the famous Councell of Nice The 2. part of the Proposition That the office of Archbishop is contrarie to the worde of God Demonstration The 1. Demonstration Euery ministerie lawfull is of God The office of Archbishop is not described in the worde nor of God but of humane pollicie ergo vnlawfull To the Maior This is one of your Demonstrations à causaremota Remonstrance when you fetch your medius terminus so farre of as frō God neuer quote a place but I graunt your Maior if you can proue the Minor To the Minor The office of the Archbishop is from God Cyp. li. 1.11.50 secundùm Dei dignationem sacerdotium Dei ad ministramus Contradiction to themselues and described in Gods word that it is not of meere humane pollicie you are answered before but of God though mediatiuely by diuine permission permissione diuina as themselues in humilitie doe confesse Obserue this by the way as a contradiction you make vnto your selues Where you nowe say the office is not described in the word a litle before you say the Archbishop doeth vsurpe Christ his proper name which is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Archbishop or high or chiefe pastour Nowe to euery name longeth a charge and office and to the name pastour and bishop longeth an office and so per consequens to the Archbishop as sometime to Titus and Timothie an higher charge and pastorall office The 2. Demonstration That ministerie whose originall is vnknowne hath no warrant in Gods word Demonstration and is vnlawful the Archbishop is so pag. 351. of the Defense of the answere to the Admonition ergo To the Maior The Maior I denie Remonstrance and distinguish vpon this word vnknowne vnknowne is an ambiguous worde There is an originall of the name of the nature of the name There is ignotum nobis ignotum natura vnknowne to vs and vnknowne in nature which vnknowne doe you meane make it once knowne Lucan I may say vnto you as the Poet Lucan saide ignotum vobis Arabes venistis in orbem you are children of a strange worlde that comming into the world of Christianitie make the Archbishops ministerie an vnknowne thing To the Minor If you meane vnknowne the nature and equitie of the thing this is vtterly false the superioritie of the Archbishops is most clerely knowne Concil Antioch both in and before the first Councell of Nice and in the Ecclesiastical historie and lineally descended from the Apostles themselues It skilleth not for the originall of the name sith 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 may beare equiualencie with the name sith in the practise of the Apostles a blinde man may see also amongest the Primatiue Christians a superiour authoritie supported by the name But if your meaning be it is vnknowne to you contemners and breakers downe of the hedge and wall of all iurisdiction it maketh no matter what is knowne or vnknowne vnto you who haue forgotten all together and knowe not your selues See nowe whether this Syllogisme can be retorted vpon your selues Retortion of the argument That publike function whose originall is vtterly strange and vnknowne in nature and in name hath no warrant in the worde nor is authorised in the Church Your confused popular vnpreaching temporarie mechanicall Presbyteri or Aldermāship is vtterly vnknown but within these fewe yeeres of late neither is it knowne to any but your selues if perhaps you knowe it your selues ergo it is neither warranted by God nor ought to be auctorised by the Church The 3.
Demonstration it is either in respect of his excellencie aboue other men or the place whereof he is aboue other places But neither of these haue euer bene or hereafter can be ergo You might haue remembred the old rule Remonstrance that from insufficient enumeration of the parts or of the causes the argument doth not hold or this fallacie is of the consequent as saieth Aristotle 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 when you mistake the cause The lawfulnesse of his office is in regard of his superioritie grounded on the word of God and in respect of his authoritie wherewith he is put in trust by the prince and Parliament But I answere thus If the office of the seignorie be lawfull it is either in respect of the excellencie of the men or of the most illustrious and celebrated place not the first for an Artisan elder is as good and substantiall an elder as any Earle or honourable man and by their owne platforme he must sit cheeke by ioll by the noblest Erle or counseller of the land Neither the second for no place is better or worse vnto them who seeke for equalitie Non locus virum sed vir locum honestat The place giueth not credite to the man but the man to the place ergo the seignorie is not lawfull in respect of the man or place and consequently hath none authoritie or gouernment The 1. Allegation Caluin lib. 4. Institut cap. 11. sect 7. Demonstration Beza in the booke of diuorcements speaketh against iurisdiction of bishops and others substitute officers If you alleage new writers one for one Remonstrance we haue an Oliuer for a Rowland if you alleage two wee can produce twise so many Bullinger and Musculus Hemingius Gualter and Zanchus c. But our meaning is not to muster authorities or recite the names of authors Pauperis est numer are pecus Goe rather to the things then names Caluins wordes are against the papists Iurisdictionem suam spiritualem iactant Romanenses Hee alloweth in his institutions Patriarkes Archbishops and bishops in the primitiue Church Shew any impietie in the offices of ours more then in those Beza speaketh against their dealings in those causes that know more in such causes any one of them then 20. of his Assistants in Eldership but if you alleage the onely fathers and begetters of presbyteries for them we will set Ridley and Iewell for bishops as learned as these in all respects and as godly The 2. Allegation Peter Martyr vpon the 13. to the Romanes Demonstration speaketh agaynst ciuill Iurisdiction in Bishops and by the same reason condemneth it in their substitutes Peter Martyr speaketh not against any iurisdiction Remonstrance which is a furtherance but popish iurisdiction which is a hinderance to the Gospell But whatsoeuer Peter Martyr saith we say this to you Bishops in respect they are bishops in England haue no ciuill iurisdiction for the distinction of ciuill and ecclesiasticall matters is more priciselie and vpon greater penalties here retained then else-where in all Christendome If it bee said some matters they handle bee ciuill that are called ecclesiasticall wee aske whether oeconomicall matters bee not a part of ciuill wherein they are as husbandly nay niggardly as any and further demaund a rule out of Gods word of them that vrge this as a sinne whereby to know a specificall difference betweene ciuill and Ecclesiasticall causes They cannot say because some of those which Ecclesiasticall courtes here handle bee accounted else-where ciuill therefore they may not be here Ecclesiasticall for of the contrary some matters here mere ciuill are else-where holden Ecclesiasticall As for example in Geneua and Scotland they inflict censures on those which for ciuill enormious crimes the magistrat hath punished or pardoned as felons manslears such like and all their presbyteries euen that among the Englishmen at Middleborough vse to deale with qualifiyng of forfeitures of bonds and accounts betweene hard masters and their prentises and other such Chancerie matters much more therefore those may iustly be accounted ecclesiastical which the law ciuill magistrate do put ouer to ecclesiastical mē better thē those which being in truth mere ciuil are intruded vpō the presbyteries Causes beneficial viz. for titles and maintenance of Ministers causes matrimonial diffamatorie with breach of charitie where none action lieth in ciuill Courts punishment of sinnes not punishable by the ciuil Magistrate and of reparations of churches churchyards which are all the heads of matters that bishops may hādle sauing testamentarie you wil I hope allow to be Ecclesiastical As for testamentary causes euen at the common law of this land they haue bene alwaies made Ecclesiasticall both because that lawe hath litle direction in those causes but such as is borrowed from the ciuill and Ecclesiastical lawes and for that mens last wils at least were wont do conteine sundrie demises for Churches orphanes poore captiues and such like good vses whereof the Church had the fourth part and wherein Bishops are intended to be most carefull to minister right indifferently to all for performance of the deads will Any iurisdiction ciuill which Bishops or some Ecclesiasticall persons haue is not claimed by them as due to their functions but imposed by the Prince as vpon subiects seruiceable for the Realme and for a credite to their places as Counseller Ambassador Iustice of the Peace c. For seeing they are subiects freemen and citizens of the Common-wealth besides their ministerie of the Church I would knowe whether they owe not this dutie being imposed on them vnto the Common-wealth and their Prince But we shall not I trust neede to perswade much with these men for they are not so squemish of ciuill honor and function as they would then seeme whiles their malignant eies are onely fastened vpon Bishops For where they haue sway neither prince nor Magistrate shall proclaime feast or fast treate of league peace or warre with any Prince nor make any ordinance without their aduise * The example of the reuerend learned man they will haue Deputies of the Churches in Parliament when they haue shut out Bishops and they thrust their Elders and Ministers vpon Kings to sitte with their other Counsellors as was not long since practised Is any matter most ciuil euen almost of least moment determined at Geneua without Beza insomuch as when troubles increase he omitteth his readings and preachings sundry times Is he not of the counsell of 60. in that state was not Villiers Secretarie of estate to the Prince of Orenge and further if we may beleeue the Chaos de Politia ciuili ecclesiastica Lib. 3. which Law Cha. was so earnest to haue printed at Leyden ministers and persons Ecclesiasticall in that they are citizens may nay in respect they are wise learned ought to be of counsell of Princes in affaires ciuill of the Common-wealth and to giue especiall direction euen in setting vp and deposing of Princes
as he sayeth beeing a Presbyteriall man and further if there were nothing else by as good reason may our Bishops meddle in ciuill iurisdiction Retortion being Ecclesiasticall men as your prophane Laye elders intermeddle with Ecclesiasticall iurisdiction being ciuill men or Lay men Is not this a good and lawful conuersion Some ciuill Magistrate lawfully is an Ecclesiastical person and gouernour ergo some Ecclesiasticall person and gouernour lawfully is a ciuill Magistrate or if some may be so what prerogatiue for one is there more then for some other But stay a while the Demonstrator meaneth to skirmish with him selfe with ob and so The 1. Obiection Cyprian saith Demonstration lib. 1. epist 3. ad Cornelium Neither haue heresies and schismes risen of any other occasions then that the Priest of God is not obeied nor one Priest for the time nor one Iudge in steede of Christ thought vpon c. Answere This place is alledged for the Pope but it serueth for euery Bishop This place is else-where in Cyprian making for the superioritie of Bishops Remonstrance with reply Lib. 4. ep 9. But this answere cutteth their owne throate If for euery bishop ergo it serueth for the superioritie of our bishops which Cyprian in writing being a bishop and superiour ouer others would neither in him selfe nor other bishops of whom he also speaketh condemne The 2. Obiection The authoritie of the Archbishop preserueth vnitie Demonstration Answere Cyprian li. 4. ep 9. saith vnitie is preserued by the agreement of Bishops that is Ministers He speaketh of the vnitie of the Catholike Church Remonstrance with reply Lib. 1. ep 3. Bishops with Cyprian are not ordinarie Ministers you may not take these in signification 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 all one But admitte it were so as it is not so in Cyprian Doeth this reason holde being the very like Vnitie is preserued by concorde and amitie of burgesses or commons of a Towne ergo not by the Magistrate or peaceable Maior of the Towne no more doth that It is preserued by bishops ergo not by Archbishops The 3. Obiection It compoundeth controuersies that would growe to many heades Demonstration Answere Cyprian saith lib. 1. ep 13. the companie of Elders is the glew of mutual concorde Demon. citeth 13. ca. 1. li. whereas there are but 12. editi Basil that if any be author of heresie the other should helpe Cyprian vseth in the former allegation lib. 1. ep 3. glutine sacerdotum The Church is framed and made fast with the glewe of priestes And also li. 3. ep 13. Corpus sacerdotum concordiae mutuae glutine the bodie of the priest If the word were Elders Remonstrance with replie the helpe of Elders meaning the Priestes lieth not as a barre to exclude the helping hands of bishops who are in degree higher then the priestes or of the Archbishop who is highest of them all for if concord of mindes make them to agree superioritie of order will with-hold them from disagreeing The 4. Obiection Ierom vpon Titus 1. saith that in the beginning a Bishop and a Priest Demonstration meaning a teaching Elder were all one but when one said I am of Paul I am of Apollos it was decreed one should beare rule ouer all the rest Answere From the beginning it was not so Tertullian contra That is true whatsoeuer is first c. and Hierom ibidem saith that this auctoritie was by custome and not by Gods institution If it had bene the best way to take away diuisions the Apostles in whose time controuersies did arise would haue taken the same order This is called preuarication or collusion Remonstrance with reply Epist ad Euagr. to oppose your selues a litle gentler and make the obiection weaker to fortifie your selues He that will make a rod for himselfe will make it of feathers If you would haue alledged out of Hierome the Epistle ad Euagr. would haue fitted your turne better where S. Hierome saith It was not onely decreed but decreed in all the worlde that one of the priestes being chosen should be set ouer or aboue all the rest this then you confesse was so but from the beginning it was not so Our Sauiour speaketh of matter of diuorce This text is brauely applied and that of Tertullian for matter of doctrine to a manner of discipline is in the like sorte applied But to the point of the argument Because S. Hierom is made to puritanize with you and this allegation is the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to kill vs withall not to withstand Hierome but to vnderstand Hierome the best expounder of himselfe we plainely graunt that Bishop and Priest were once for a short time all one donec Ecclesia reciperet complemētum as Ambrose saith till the church were brought to a perfection so once there were no Deacons which yet derogateth nothing from them But yet not so all one that by the institution of God they were to continue all one and might not be changed or that in the Apostles time they were not foorthwith changed sith in the Apostles time I am of Paul I am of Cephas was the occasion of the change and that for rooting out of schisme and composing of strifes as in sending from Antioch to Ierusalem was the verie chiefe ende and purpose of the change and finally the decree of all the worlde for the ratifying of a standing superioritie was the approbation of the change as Hierome thinketh who being but a Priest or Minister himselfe though there he laboureth to debase the Bishop as much as he could yet by the pregnant light is forced to confesse such a decree though in truth it be not likely any such generall decree was positiuely made through all the worde otherwise then the imitation of such Churches by a secrete and vniuersall consent as the Apostles had planted and such a decree we will graunt Me thinketh I heare one of you reason as strongly thus In the beginning Kings were Priestes Absurditie of the obiection kingdome and priesthood were ioined in one ergo Kings and Priests must so remaine and continue all one Or in the beginning such was their simplicitie Great Lords sonnes Iacob and his children kept their fathers sheepe ergo Noble mens children must keepe their fathers sheepe for in the beginning yong sheepheards and yong princes were but all one Or thus In the beginning there were no 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Elders for the first mention of them is but in the 11. of the Actes ergo there neuer ought any Presbyteri viz. Ministers to haue bene ordeined The 5. Obiection Caluin sayth the Apostles had one amongst them to gouerne the rest The Answere That was for order to propound matters to gather voyces as the speaker of the Parliament not for Superioritie This answere would be better iustified then with bare wordes Remonstrance with replie Doe the fathers or Caluin thinke Iames was but chosen chiefe for one meeting
as they chuse their Presidents And we do not hold Caluin or any humane authoritie affirmatiue and therefore we rather defend it was for order Superioritie both of dignitie office Eusebius whom Caluin citeth to this purpose maketh Iames the sonne of Alpheus Byshop of Ierusalem and Byshop of the Apostles because the Synode of the twelue Disciples and 72. Euangelists continued from Christ his ascencion to the dispersion of the Apostles It must needes be amongst the Apostles and other Pastorall Elders not onely a gouernment for continuance of order but also preeminence in the action Act. 15.19 For there the worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I iudge or determine is vsed whereupon after much disputation all rested and the matter was concluded for it is no preiudice to the equalitie of the Apostleship or ministerie a modest orderly and temperate authoritie This is worth the whole It was of order say they not of Superioritie as the speaker in Parliament as if all Superioritie were opposite to good order but as neere as they can they will borrow from the high Court of Parliament Belike they meane one day to keepe a Court of it Retortion The Speaker doeth not gather the voyces neither hath voice but when all the house is euen The L. Chanceller in the vpper house asketh the Clarke gathereth but the L. Chanceller remaineth the propounder so long as he is Chanceller And this their temporarie Presidencie is for order say they nay it is for disorder ordo est rationis Aristotle in his physicks To choose one this day another to morow and the third day choose a neewe is a tumultuous order Note this by the way Their gouernour or president of order in euery meeting is to propound matters to gather voyces viua voce or by scrutinie Ergo some authoritie is left vnto him for he is to propounde Ergo it is in his choyse to gather or scatter to silence or propound Ethicorum 3. eadem quae agere possumus non agere which is as much in valewe as a Warden amongst his schollers with a negatiue voyce which is a great preeminence and Superioritie The 6. Obiection Paul was Superiour to Timothie and Titus Demonstrator The Answere Paul and they had diuerse offices Paul an Apostle and they Euangelists ouer others Let him shewe me a reason Remonstrance with reply An Apostle being Superiour to an Euangelist and he to a Pastor c. why a Byshop may not be Superiour to a Pastor succeeding the Apostles for if vos autem non sic doe take away all Superioritie then an Apostle and euery Pastor is euery way equal a Pastor but equal with their lay Elder and Deacon As for Paul Doctor Gentium a Doctor of the Gentiles he was their Superiour this is beyond all question As for Titus and Timothie if as you say they were Superiors as Euangelists Ergo euery way Superior for Ecclesiasticall order ouer ordinarie Ministers It is an Absurditie to say Absurditie of the Demonstrator hee was Superior as an Euangelist Ergo not Superior as a Byshop sith hee that desireth a Byshopricke praeclarum opus desiderat desireth a good worke Paul sayth that Timothie worketh the worke of the Lord euen as he 1. Cor. 16. But hence followeth not that he was an Apostle euen as Paul was no more then hereof that hee was an Euangelist Or as well to make the holy Ghost say Episcopatum eius accipiat alter Let another take the Byshopricke of Iudas but let no man take the Apostleship of Iudas The fallacie of this is the caption adidem Our positiue learning is better then your negatiue learning they were Euangelists in some maner signification as Preachers but no such Euangelists as a seuerall office Ephes 4. as you imagine of them for by their owne authoritie they did not plant Churches but by commission and teaching of Saint Paul The one Timothie being 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Prelate of the Ephesians 1. Thes 5.12 1. Tim. 3.14 Ephesus Metropoliticall citie of Asia where after his abode which Saint Paul requested of him for to stay no where you can finde Saint Paul afterward to sende for him especially from the date of writing the Epistle The other Titus being Archbyshop of Crete whether in that time or after times Crete were 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as Homer 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Iliad reporteth hauing three or an hundreth cities be it for ordeining or gouerning the one the other had Superioritie of all the Pastors there Iustin Martir one of the next writers to the Apostles calleth Timothie 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 gouernour or Prelate of the Church of Ephesus which he could not call him if hee had bin chosen for one onely meeting or action This worde in Plato 7. Epist. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is Prefect of a city therefore al his Superioritie was not so much of order as of greatnes in authoritie and the Church from time to time hath admitted the title of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ordeined by imposition of hands first or chiefe Byshop not so much for time as dignitie for he had to denounce and commaund 1. Tim. 1.4 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is with power denounce and commaunde with many other wordes in that Epistle importing his Iudiciall authoritie and Superiour dignitie The 3. Proposition of the Demonstrator None may be ordeined to an office in the Church vntill the place be voyde Demonstrator The 1. Demonstration As was the twelfth place for Matthias so is a certaine place for euery Church officer But Matthias was not ordeined to the place til Iudas had made it voyde by hanging himselfe Ergo none is to bee ordeined before the place bee voyde Adde vnto this conclusion which you ought to do Remonstrance by hanging himselfe or by lot Or when an Apostleship falleth or when euery twelfth place is voyde by such maner of Resignation Absurditie of the Demonstrator as hanging himselfe or when Matthias commeth againe to bee chosen in Iudas place This Argument leapeth from one praedicament to another from the praedicament agere to vbi He ordeined him to an office Ergo to a place and a certaine place as if the Apostles were not to preach 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in all the world The Maior proposition is false For Christ appointed the number of twelue such as had bin conuersant with him so that there might of the Apostles be no lesse or more albeit he had 72. Disciples besides that had bin instructed by him which were Euāgelists but there is no set number of ordinarie Ministers prescribed to any nation which it may not come short of nor exceede In one Church of Antioche Ast. 13. was there not sundry both Prophets and Doctors there named yet no stinted number for it is there noted 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as happely the Church then stood and it stoode very flourishing
taketh vpon him to preach is a preacher nay according to the first Demonstration and others of this chapter and his interpretation of it none be The hauing a Reader debarreth not from seeking to a Preacher and therefore it is better to haue readers then none at all As for parrat Preachers it is better to haue a discreete Reader then one of them who are bolde and hambolde to speake but speake not to the purpose or else speake schismatically and therefore are turned out The 3. Obiection of the Demonstrator It is impossible to haue preachers euery where Demonstration ergo readers Answere of the Demonstrator This is a disgrace to say it is impossible and yet to say all is well and to violate the Lordes decree He that is challenged so to say by you Remonstrance with reply saith it is not possible as the state is nowe to haue such supplie in euery free chappell or place of seruice of a preacher there is some difficultie in compassing of this But to depraue other mens word is your speciall grace as for breaking Gods decree you must better proue it then you haue or else neuer say that the parte of a ministers dutie to reade in the Church to be thus vnlawfull In the feare of God be it spoken we will thanke God for our freedome both to reade Gods word and preach and pray for her Maiesties gratious continuance for so much quantitie of dominion no such plenteous preaching is in all the world as in her Maiesties dominion God increase the number of learned and well aduised preachers The 4. Obiection of the Demonstrator It were vncharitablenes to turne bare Readers out Demonstration for they their wiues and children should begge Answere of the Demonstrator Better 3. or 4. begge then damnation of 1000. Yea it were iniustice and impietie to turne them away Remonstrance with replie because they cannot preach for they can exhort and teache and minister the sacraments no such feare of damnation of a 1000. But it is your preiudice and condemnation to auouch that by their ministerie God cannot saue soules I doubt not but much better by sundrie mens labours being but simple in learning then by the most of that crue their vaine verball babling which with griefe of heart I knowe the most of your humour to vse in sermons for set aside a fewe resonant ill applied wordes culled together to astonish the simple a litle for that time what order what learning or any thing else tending to the building of the inward man in spirituall knowledge is to be founde in most of their speakings or exercises So that I see no difference betwixt such vnlearned talkers and the ignorant ministers whome with great disdaine they terme neuer better then Dumbe dogges but that these because they cannot preach will not and therefore are lesse impudent the other in truth cannot barke but yet will be bolde to be balling though it be but against the Moone or with running riot How much different is S. Hieroms iudgement from yours he saith thus It is a fault in some Bishops Hierom. 〈…〉 19. 〈…〉 that chuse not into the Clergie those who be the best but who talke the best non meliores sed argutiores and thinke simple and harmelesse men to be vnliable for the ministerie The 2. Assertion of the Demonstrator That the Church ought not to be gouerned by Commissaries Officials Demonstration and Chancellors The 1. Demonstration They who are no elders ought not to haue any thing to doe in the gouernment of the Church 1. Tim. 5.17 Those Chancellors Commissaries Officials are no elders whether you take elder for a minister or assistant ergo To the Maior The Maior proposition is intricated both with schisme vntruth Remonstrance and treason For the Queenes Maiestie is no elder no minister no priest and yet hath and ought to haue the gouernment of the Church whereas such elders as you meane haue nothing at all to doe in the Church either by precept or president The conuersion is false which the Demonstrator would haue gathered Elders gouerne well ergo they that are no Elders doe not gouerne others may gouerne in the actions of the Church who are no pastorall elders which is the answere to your Minor For Chancellors Commissaries Officials they are assistant to the pastorall elders or doe gouerne in foro litigioso and yet many of them also pastorall elders and ministers It is a loude lie to say none of them are ministers Well the griefe is that euery minister may not gouerne and rule without checke of all superiors not onely bishops or their substitutes but any other This is a wise Demonstration which is a paralogisme consisting all of negatiues and is like to this viz. No bishoply authoritie is lawfull none eldership is a bishoply authoritie ergo none eldership is lawfull The 2. Demonstration They who must gouerne the Church Demonstra must haue a warrant for so doing from Christ But the Chancellors c. haue no warrant from Christ ergo The Maior is false if you meane immediately from Christ Remonstr or especially and positiuely warranted otherwise then as all superiour power is of God It is sufficient to be warranted from the Christian Magistrate those who occupie the place of the Apostles else a Maior Sherife and Constable Iustice of peace and maister of an Hospitall should haue an vnlawfull authoritie For a man may no more deale without lawfull warrant in the Common-wealth then he may doe in the externall gouernment of the Church To the Minor Their warrant is out of the worde of God He that gouerneth in diligence Rom. 12. The bishops and others make them partakers of their authoritie by way of delegation and substitution which in Church and Common-wealth is both lawfull for not onely by the equitie but by examples of Scriptures and practise of the Primitiue Church substitution may be approoued lawfull The 3. Demonstration They whose names Demonstration offices and practise be deriued from Antichrist may not gouerne the Church of Christ for who will suffer his wife to be gouerned by the maister of a Brothell house but so are the names c. of our Chancellors because they are grounded in the filthie dunghill of the Canon lawe ergo To the Maior The Maior is of infinite distance from the Minor Remonstrance I answere to the Minor The name of Chancellor is not founde in all the Canon Lawe in that sence it is vsed but in the Ciuill Lawe of the Romanes is vsed for any chiefe assistant sitting intra eosdem tribunalis cancellos cum Magistratu as I haue learned of those who be skilfull and is not repugnant vnto but may be said to be deriued out of Gods lawe if the deriuation be drawne à cancellis to keepe vnbrideled or inordinate men intra cancellos within their boundes So the name of Commissaries by reason of commission or matter of
ministerie but by such a fansied presbyterie We therefore thus retort against you They who cannot assure or conferre like grace as was assured to Timothy they haue nothing to doe to ordaine or lay on hands by the grounds interpretation of your own place your Eldershippe neither do nor can assure or conferre like grace Ergo they haue not to do with ordinatiō or imposition of hands And again If only the eldership can assure men of their calling as you assume in your minor then cannot the classis or synodes ordeine ministers being seueral assemblies offices in the Church neither can the Demonstrator nor any of the faction haue any assurance of their callings Or els the Bishops calling is the calling by an Eldership Then also the blessing that you imagine God giues to your labours is none assurance of your calling But you will not condemne your selues for intruders for running before you were sent nor denie the fruites of your paines to giue assurance vnto you of your callings nor allow the Bishop that ordeined you to be an eldership Ergo the ordination by an Eldership is not the onely way to assure a man of his calling which is the contradictorie of your minor Besides that it is vnsounde diuinitie to say that the outward calling in what sort soeuer is an assurance of the inwarde as here is meant The 3. Demonstration or Allegation Many sentences before alledged out of Councels lawes histories Demonstration writers old and newe that speake for election by many speake for ordination by manie and not by one Albeit we did graunt for 200 yeeres after Christ Remonstrance the people in diuers places had voyces of acclamation not of suffrages in election of their Bishops yet had they not like in election of their pastours or priestes As for ordeining they had no part at al either for Bishops or priests at any time The election at somtimes permitted before princes were Christian and euen by Christian princes afterward could not make them ordeiners neither shall you find any acte of ordination giuen to any of the people All Councels giue ordination of a Bishop to the Metropolitane or to the Bishops therfore to giue vnto the Church Aldermen this authority egally distributed were geason strange newes Your reason roundly trussed vp is this Election was by many peoples voices Ergo Ordination by many Elders hands which is no sequele And why not by one sith the designement is so by the holy Ghost Lay thine hands rashly on none Timothie was but one Vnus instar omnium One in steede of all as representing all as hauing the preeminence of ordeyning aboue all The 4. Demonstration or Allegation Euagrius came to a Bishopricke vnlawfully Demonstration Theodor. lib. 5. cap. 23. because one Paulinus ordeined him contrary to the Canons which prouide he must be ordeyned by all or by three at the least Theod. saith Remonstrance Plures canones simul violauit Made him his successor being about to die without the comprouinciall Bishops And so say we if any will aspire without the comprouinciall Bishops but by your leaue wee doe not intend hereby to account euery parish priest or inferior pastor to be priuiledged as a Bishop which meaning I wote right well you haue The 5. Demonstration or Allegation When a Bishop is to be ordeined Demonstra Conc. Carthag 4. ca. 23. one shal pronounce the blessing and the rest of the Bishops with elders present shall lay on their hands This is ca. 2. distinct 23. Remonstrance But it is false play to foist in your eldership into the Canon for it is reliqui omnes episcopi which is the vse in our consecration of Bishops where all the Bishops present and in our ordination of ministers where all the ministers present lay on hands with the Bishop The 6. Demonstration or Allegation When a Bishop is ordeined Demonstra Cypri li. 1. epi 4 the Bishops adioyning did ordeine him We graunt Cyprian Remonstrance but ordination of a minister consecration of a bishop neither with Cyprian nor the councel are alone thing See Conc. Carth. 4. ca. 3. qualiter presbyteri ordinentur The 1. Obiection of the Demonstrator Paul and Barnabas ordeined Elders Demonstration and no mention made of Eldership The Answere of the Demonstrator They are saide to ordeine because they were chiefe in ordeyning as Iosua was said to circumcise which was the Leuites office Ios 3. ver 5. cap. and the Queene sayde to make a lawe and not she alone The Argument holdeth good Remonstrance with reply P. and B. did ordeine Elders Ergo Elders did not ordeine one another As for the pieuish interpretation They did ordeine that is chiefly ordeine as Iosua it is expresly in the Text That the Lord bidde Iosua make sharpe kniues and circumcise Ergo by diuine Oeconomie he might do it or in the 8. ver is a clearer construction when they had made an ende of circumcising the Leuites did circumcise and Iosua commanded but nothing is in the Text that after Paul and Barnabas had ordeyned the others made an ende of the action and therefore were no parties in the beginning middle or end of the same for they commended them to the grace of God so your similitude or exemplifying in neither of these doth holde And what reason is this Iosua is saide to doe that which he commandeth others to do Ergo Paul Barnabas who commanded none others but imposed handes themselues as wee both confesse had others to ioyne with them and so by this wise construction these Churches had Elderships of no mans calling before they had Ministers and if they had not had such neither Paul nor Barnabas had beene able to haue ordeyned them any ministers for want of their assistance The 2. Obiection of the Demonstrator Albeit then so not so nowe No more then communitie in the Apostles time Demonstrator Answere There was no more communitie then then now for they are Anabaptistes who so thinke Ergo the instance maketh for vs. The instance maketh litle for you Remonstrance with reply if you defende communitie of all quoad 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 both for proprietie and vse or that a man may now say as then 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 they had all common solde their possessions and goodes deuided to all as euery man had neede 2. Act. 45. verse Neither did any man say 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ought of his goodes to be his proper owne but all was common Act. 4.32 This is right Anabaptisticall if you so say that eyther proprietie or egaltie of the vse is eyther common to all or chalengeable by any now a daies The thirde Obiection of the Demonstrator Examples are no generall rules to be followed The Answere of the Demonstrator Demonstrator Examples not contrary to rules or reason of Scriptures are to be followed as if they were commandements Yea but a generall
Christ saith not No man shall be so but he that will be so desiring it Answere of the Demonstrator Demonstra Luke saith Let the greatest be your seruant ergo that is a shift Though our Sauiour say Remonstrance with reply Vos autem non sic and in Luke Let him be your seruant the one doth represse the humour of ambition the other clause doth expresse Christian humilitie Christ was as their seruant 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 yet had he superiour authoritie ouer them Assertion of the Demonstrator A Bishop should be resident in euery Congregation Demonstration The 1. Demonstration If a Bishop and a Minister be all one then must there be a bishop in euery Congregation but they are one for S. Paul describeth them and their qualities all one ergo The Antecedent I admit Remonstrance if they be simply and absolutely all one To the Assumption We will not denie but the wordes Episcopus Presbyter Minister Pastor may notifie all one thing or sometimes taken for all one in describing one and the same thing improperly taken But in their more proper acceptance a bishop and a Presbyter must signifie distinct things both in office and in dignitie This is a flat aequiuocation to say Presbyter or pastoral elder signifieth principally an inferiour minister ergo it must notifie as properly and principally a bishop and a minister As for your wittie reason the bishop and minister haue one qualitie ergo are one thing although I might answere you some of those qualities are not of pure necessitie affixed to the bishop or minister as to be the husband of one wife yet your answere shall be all these are not formall accidents and doe not properly distinguish As for the qualities of yemind they make not special difference of offices in the Church It followeth not because they were a while in the foundation of the Church all one that therefore they doe stil in all respectes continue all one being changed euen in the Apostles times But thus we retort If Presbyter and Episcopus be all one then he that is not episcopus cannot be termed Presbyter idem numero sunt maximè idem conuertuntur but your Lay elders are not episcopi ergo they are not Presbyteri no Elders at all nor so to be termed The 2. Demonstration S. Paules Bishops and Deacons were appointed for one place Demonstration S. Paules Deacons were in euery Congregation Philip. 1. Act. 6.2 and continued longer then the Bishops Athan. 2. Apolog. Hierom. cont Lucifer ergo there ought to be a Bishop in euery Congregation Vnlesse you meane place to be a Congregation in the Maior there are 4. termini in the whole Syllogisme Remonstrance To the partes S. Paules Bishops and Deacons c. This is a false copulatiue and maketh a fallacie of things that are separated true not conioined true by fallacious composition The multiplicitie of the meaning breedeth aequiuocation as before viz. a bishop which is an ouerseer of the flocke whome we call Presbyter or Pastor or Priest and the Deacons are for one Congregation And a bishop who is aboue a Pastor or Priest must be but ouer one Congregation the former is true the later is false Episcopus is a worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of many significations S. Paules bishop is in both significations To the Minor The Apostles did the office of Deacons for a time That they continued longer then Paules bishops it is false sith the equitie of the offices continueth still whether you take them for inferior ministers or distributers to the poore they haue neuer discontinued Vnto the place of Athanasius and Hierom which you do not cite but aime to euery way and no way I haue nothing to say but this Athanasius in the 2. Apolog. defuga sua hath written nothing to countenance your assertion you doe the better to quote nothing And for Hierome there he doth proue that Deacons and Priestes in that Church did baptize being authorized from the bishops who gaue an imposition of handes or confirmation after they had baptized The 3. Demonstration That which Paul commanded Titus Demonstration is to be practised in like case But he commanded him to ordeine Elders which is Bishops Tit. 1.5 ergo they must be in euery place This is strange to refort to this place of Titus which maketh for superioritie Remonstrance and against equalitie of ministers To the Minor Elders all pastorall Elders are in generalitie of signification bishops that is ouerseers all bishops are not inferiour pastorall Elders The answere is before the worde Episcopus and Presbyter are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of many significations The 4. Allegation or Demonstration Euery Church should haue her communion table and bishop Demonstr Ignat. ad Philodelph epist None better then Ignatius distinguisheth the orders His meaning is of an ouerseeing Pastor Remonstrance or where it is expedient to haue a chiefe bishop This allegation is answered cap. 13. The 5. Allegation or Demonstration Where any was found woorthy to be a Bishop there they appointed a Bishop Demonstration where there was not to furnish a bishop and an elder hee meaneth the Doctor there the Apostles made the bishop and left the Elder How iniurious is the Demonstrator to Epiphanius Remonstrance who disputeth against Aerius heresie Erat sermo Aerij furiosus magis quà m humanae conditionis quid est episcopus ad Presbyterum vnus or do vnus honor vna dignitas It was Aerius reasonlesse or furious rather then reasonable maner of speach What is a bishop better then a pastorall elder or priest there is but one order of both like honor both one dignitie With what face can he produce Epiphanius for equalitie who saith a bishop cannot rebuke an elder but because he hath authoritie ouer him Now for Epiphanius his words are otherwise and the Demonstrator either obliuious or neuer read Epiphanius Cum autē multitudo non esset non inuenti sunt inter eos qui presbyteri constituerentur had not the supplie of many priests or pastorall elders They were contented onely with a bishop vntil they might haue complete number of such elders ouer whom the bishop caried his superior hand of authoritie Finally Epiphanius did not so much as dreame of this elder to be there an ordinarie Doctor sith Presbyter with him is but an inferior Pastor What Chamaeleon with changeable colours is our Demonstrator An elder in this new Tetrarchie sometimes is a parish bishop elsewhere an Alderman gouerning his ward other times a graue and profound Doctor all which to sweare with them Epiphanius must be forced The 6. Allegation or Demonstration Demonstr 2. Conc. Carth. 1. Tom. ca. 10. If a bishop run into slander and many bishops cannot suddenly bee gathered the cause must be heard of 12. bishops You may bee ashamed to alleage that Councill to confirme your parish bishops Remonstrance which distinctly setteth downe
the authoritie of Metropolitane dicecesan bishops as also of Presbyter and bishop in the same canon The 7. Demonstr 3. Conc. Carth. Allegation or Demonstration If an elder be accused he may call 6. bishops from the place hard by These are fractions and not distinct demonstrations Remonstrance Your allegation hath an answer before The paucitie or fewnesse of our BB. doth not make against the multitude of theirs therefore this demonstration serueth you to no vse The 8. Demonstr Euseb li. 5. ca. 16 Socrates 4.26 Quest 16. dist 50. Theod. li. 5. c. 4. Allegation or Demonstration Stories make mention of one Sotichus bishop of village of Cuman Of one Mares of Solicha Gregorie of Nazianzum a small Citie Bishop of a castle The towne or place of their See might be litle their iurisdiction great Remonstrance I know not whether it be your or your Printers fault Theodoret remembreth one Mares of Dolicha as for the bishop of Solicha and the bishoprike of that God send all the packe of you no better bishoprikes Dorchester was once the bishops See of Lincolne Shirburne of Sarum Selsey of Cicester Thetford of Norwich Cridie of Excester c. yet the iurisdictions and dicecesses as large as now and some of them much larger The 9. Allegation A minister Demonstr Hier. ad Euagr. super Titum ad Oceanum that is to say a bishop A minister and a bishop all one to Titus With the ancient fathers bishops and ministers all one I must remember you what is said also in the same place Remonstrance Presbyter episcopus aliud aetatis aliud dignitatis Non dico de presbyteris non de inferiori gradu ad episcopos venio Priest a name of age Bishop of dignitie and office Priest an inferiour degree other where priests supplie the Apostles place the bishop supplieth Christes place Be your owne remembrancer in the epistle to Oceanus the drift of Hierome is to shew a difference oddes betweene Deacon and Priest because of certaine who made the Deacon equall to the Priest and yet for all that alway the preheminence of the bishop before the Priest Nam Alexandriae à Marco Euangelista vsque ad Heracliam Dionysium episcopos presbyteri semper vnum ex se electum in superiori gradu collocatum episcopum nominabant Euen from Marke the Euangelist downward to his time the bishop of Alexandria had a superior degree aboue the pastorall elders The 10. Allegation or Demonstration Demonstr D. Barns Acts Monum fol. 216. in the 6. art I will neuer beleeue one can be bishop ouer two or three cities or a whole countrey by the law of God I know not whether he saith so or no but if he haue read and remembred that Titus was bishop of Candie Ignatius of Syria Remonstrance with infinite moe out of the Fathers and Councils he would bee of another beliefe Many things slipped such men vpon hatred to popish bishops The 11. Allegation or Demonstration Demonstr Hooper super 8. comm pa. 90. The office of a bishop is degenerate In the primitiue Church they had no bishops as we haue He speaketh of bishops vnder the Popedome Remonstrance or els the speach might very well be spared his words are If the fourth part remaine to the bishop a third part to the teachers two parts to the poore one part to the souldiours it were better bestowed c. then it is bestowed now None of our bishops haue a fourth part vpon the diuision of all the ecclesiasticall reuenues of his dioeces and therefore no cause herein to assigne a fault in the diuision But if there might be as bishop Hooper thought a more equall diuision what is this to prooue a bishops authoritie in euery Pastor of a parish The eleuenth Chapter Assertion of the Demonstrator THere must be Doctors in the Church Demonstration which is an office different from a Pastor The 1. Demonstration That which the Apostles doe distinguish are distinct but the Apostles distinguish Doctours from Pastours 12. Rom. 7. Eph. 4.11 v. as he doeth distinguish man from woman Gal. 3.28 v. Ergo To the Minor The Apostle maketh distinguishment of giftes Remonstrance not of offices in the first two places albeit distinct giftes and offices yet coincident in one The Apostles did exhort they did teach Actes 2. Peter and Actes 7. Steuen Paul a Doctor and yet spake the word of exhortation Of euery action or qualitie groweth not a separable office and function perpetuall in the Church There are certaine who must distribute Absurditie of the Demonstrator shew mercie prophesie gainsay and stop the mouthes of the gainsaier ergo there are seuerall and set offices officers so many in number as are qualities numbred But the Demonstrator saith distinguished as man and woman Gal. 3. v. 28. S. Paul maketh no distinguishment but a combination or connexion of all in Christ he saith not there is bond there is free male and female but neither male nor female c. The Demonstrator had this obiection for the acception of a copulatiue in that place to the Galathians out of the Fenny water of the Country-poison but the good soule vnderstood it not The meaning was that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the copulatiue maketh a distinction betweene Doctor and Pastor Eph. 4. as it doeth Gal. 3. distinguish betweene male and female But how like those two places are the one to the other to make any such shew I would those that haue but a smacke of Greeke or of any iudgement would consider The 2. Demonstration As the gifts are diuers Demonstration so the offices but the giftes of Doctor and Pastor are diuers 1. Cor. 12. as also experience teacheth Ergo To the Maior Diuers gifts make not diuers offices Remonstrance many gifts go to one facultie science office gift of memorie subtiltie to penetrate betweene the cause and the effect iudgement action eloquution to an Orator One man may be better able to diuide his text another to perswade and yet an office of a preacher To the Minor Though they be sundry giftes yet are they not sundered into seuerall offices Apollos was 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 eloquent and yet full of forcible perswasion Act. 18. but you could not haue a more probable place against the making of the Pastor and Doctor two seuerall offices then this of the 1. Cor. 12. for the same officers are here reckoned vp that are in the 4. to the Ephesians and yet no mention here of Pastors but onely Doctors which argueth that vnder the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Doctors Pastors be also contained for els were the diuision vnperfect and the Doctor might better then the Pastor haue bene omitted whome you make not so necessarie as Pastor The 3. Demonstration They who are to take a diuerse course are diuerse The Pastor is to exhort Demonstration the Doctor to attend doctrine
hath described 1. Tim. 5.17 Ergo There is not so much as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 any colourable description of Elders in these wordes Remonstrance The place giueth commendation and great maintenance to all pastoral elders that gouerne their flocks wel but honourable commendation of those who with earnestnes labour in the worde So 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifieth your elders haue not any maintenance of your Churches but liue of their craftes and trades and therefore yours cannot be there meant which is spoken specially to establish large maintenaunce by the Church toward the Elders there vnderstood The 5. Demonstration or Allegation There is no Church which can stand without their Eldershippe or Councell Demonstration Ign. ad Tral ep The wordes are Remonstrance 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 That is the Elders or Ministers or Pastorall elders are a senate or fellowship of the Apostles of Christ without it there is no Congregation holie or sacred nor synode of Saintes and so say wee But this is a great distaunce from your Laicall Eldership this is our holie and sacred Conuocation or Chapter-house or whatsoeuer Ecclesiasticall assemblie and meeting It appeareth by sundry places of Ignatius that the Presbyteri hee speaketh of did preach and minister the Sacraments Ergo he meaneth not of yours These whom he meaneth he saith are successors of the Apostles which hitherto I haue not heard any of you challenge for your Elders that be Lay men The 6. Allegation or Demonstration Demonstration Tertul. de bape It belongeth onely to the Bishop to baptise and to the Elder and Deacon vpon the Bishops license I would to God you would as well doe after this golden sentence of Tertull. as you can memoratiuely recite the same Remonstrance the sence and sentence maketh all for vs. Dandi habet ius summus sacerdos id est Episcopus dehinc presbyteri diaconi non tamen sine Episcopi authoritate propter eeclesiae honorem quo saluo salua pax est As the Bishop is a superior minister or priest so Presbyter an inferiour minister or priest for your elders you may go seeke for you permit neither your elder nor deacon to baptize The 7. Allegation or Demonstration Demonstra Ierō con Lucife Neither elder nor Deacon haue right but vpon commaundement of the Bishop so much as to baptize The words Inde venit vt sine Chrismate Episcopi iussione neque presbyter neque diaconus ius habeant baptizandi That is Remonstrance pastorall elder or priest the wordes immediatly antecedent speake of the authoritie of the Bishop or chiefe priest who doeth authorize other priests vt enim accepit quis ita dare potest He speaketh of Chrisme aswell as of the Bishops licence alluding to a particular custome this cannot serue your turnes for you holde that no Bishop may debarre you of licence to preach or vse your ministery your elders and deacons may not minister the sacraments though they were licenced as your selues thinke The 8. Allegation or Demonstration Elders fell away vpon the ambition of the Teachers Demonstra Amb. 1. Tim. 5. Ambrose saith Synagoga postea ecclesia seniores habuit Remonstrance Ambrose saith that state of the church for all that was tollerable Both the Synagogue and afterward the Church had Elders or Seniors before any Christian magistrate had the preeminence in the Church but no such elders as you doe platforme For these gaue but counsell yours do absolutely gouerne ordeine censure and all things sauing preaching and ministring Sacraments The 9. Allegation or Demonstration Demonstra Possidon in vita August Valerius the Bishop did contrary to the Apostolicall custome in appoynting Augustine to preach being an elder The wordes are Remonstrance contravsum consuetudinem ecclesiarum Aphricanarum against the vse and custome of the Aphrican churches not of the Orientall Churches where the vse was so A custome particular misliked also by many of the fathers you would make Apostolicall and generall The 10. Allegation or Demonstration After Arrius was conuict of heresie Demonstrat Socr. li. 5. ca. 22. Elders might not preach it was so decreed Caluins quotation is lib. 9. Socrat. tripartitae historiae Remonstrance Alexandriae tantùm institutum fuit whence you borrow this onely at Alexandria this was ordeyned because Arrius had troubled the Church there Is not this curtalling of places an euident signe of the euill conscience you haue if you knowe it or of ignorance ioyned with boldnesse if you know it not and yet alledge it The 11. Allegation or Demonstration Demonstrat Bucer de reg Chri. lib. 1. The number of Elders of euery Church must bee increased according to the multitude of the people Bucer by the words lib. 1. cap. 8. speaketh of Curatorum ecclesiae seniorum Remonstrance that is pastoral elders as the marginall note vnderstandeth the Ministers Ministros ecclesiae sarcire oportere quicquid fuerit neglectum The 12. Allegation or Demonstration Martyr 12. Rom. lamenteth that they were fallen out of the Church Demonstration that the name scant remaineth Martyr citeth S. Ambrose complaint of the want or defect of certaine Elders for aduise Remonstrance who were for a time in some Church the Magistrate being vnchristian but you finde not that they were called Presbyteri as signifying an office which title you giue to yours and the places where Presbyteri be named you apply to them The 13. Allegation or Demonstration Certaine of the people were ioyned with the Pastor in Church-gouernment Demonstration Idem 12. Co. 1. Euen so at this day Remonstran in euery parish are the like assistants to gather and imploy the almes of the Church and for other prouisions The Puritanes know not their owne Church or common wealth and yet the meaning is but of Churches in great cities and Cathedrall The 14. Allegation or Demonstration Demostran Caluin instit li. 4. cap. 3. sect 8. There were Elders in the Church 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 He said it is no necessary Demonstration to proue it Remonstrance he can neuer proue that they had iurisdiction or ought to haue of censures of ordinations of lawe making and all other gouernment or that they were Lay men and had no maintenance by the Church or that they were annuall or biennall officers as the Consistorials doe now preach The 15. Allegation or Demonstration D. Whitgift pag. 638. confesseth there were Elders Demonstr Some were Seniors as Ambrose speaketh of in the Church before any Christian magistrate was pro tempore Remonstrance for a stay good aduise in the Church but none of this medley of perpetuity and with such gouernment and authority as is now platted The 16 Allegation or Demonstration If the platforme to Timothie be for al Churches Demonstration then must Elders be in al. 1. Timoth. 6.14 But the first is true Ergo the second This is
and be idle and busiebodies if they may haue maintenance This Eldership is no vocation by the worde of God and therefore burdensome to the Church But if the Church be not bound to mainteine them then they are none of those Elders that are worthie double honour 1. Tim. 5. For by double honour liberall mainteinance is there chiefly vnderstood as the reasons annexed and circumstances of that place doe import The 4. obiection of the Demonstrator It bringeth in a newe Popedome or tyrannie in the Church Demonstrat Answere of the Demonstrator It is blasphemie to terme the gouernment so for shall wee not yeelde our obedience to the Scepter of Christ Nay it is a name full of blasphemie Remōstrance with reply and the mysterie of Antichrist to call the bable of their Eldership as they describe it by the name of the Scepter of our blessed king and Sauiour Iesu Christ and to challenge to themselues the obedience due to our Lorde Christ Nay if many Antichrists be worse then one and many tyrants more intoilerable then one then this to tyrannize in the conscience by many Elderdomes and Popedomes is Mysterium iniquitatis which doeth aduaunce against Christ Hath Christ no Scepter to gouerne his Church by but in their hands Doe all denie Christ to be their king that refuse or haue not your Elderships With what face can you deny Barrowes conclusions that yeelde him these premisses to conclude by The 5. Obiection of the Demonstrator It is a kinde of Donatisme to challenge such authoritie ouer Princes Demonstration Answere of the Demonstrator It is flatterie to suffer Princes to doe what they list This is Gualters obiection an enemie to discipline Gualter is no enemie to discipline Remonstrance with reply but to Anabaptisticall discipline As for this discipline in vse it is no flatterie of Princes but if your Assertion might sway we should haue flat rebellion and insurrection against al Christian Kings especially against the sacred Maiestie of our most gracious and glorious Prince What can the Papists imagine of greater waight to be holden from them then the Scepter kingdom of Christ as you do And you are as tickle headed and handed being discontented as they are The 6. Obiection of the Demonstrator It taketh away the Princes authoritie in causes Ecclesiasticall Demonstrat Answere of the Demonstrator No more then it did from Dauid in his time not so much as the Bishops do now for the Prince requireth but this to see the Church well ordered which the Eldership alloweth and craueth There was no such Eldership in Dauids time Remonstrance with reply Ergo no comparison betweene this and that time But this impeacheth her Maiesties Prerogatiue and preeminence giuen by all the Peeres Lords Spirituall Lords Temporall the Commons in the lower house Conuocation house to set vp a Consistorie ouer all causes and persons yea ouer herselfe For these men dreame that all sheaues must bow to their sheaues which God forbid for they are a quintessence of Eldership aboue Sunne and moone aboue the Imperial firmament It is a slander to say not so much as Bishops for Bishops haue none authoritie of iurisdiction but deriued from the Prince vnto whose regall authoritie of the crowne all commaunding superioritie is annexed But you claime other and farre greater as elsewhere is shewed The 7. obiection of the Demonstrator It transformeth the state of the Cōmon wealth into a meere popularitie Demonstrat and wil alter this gouernment Answere of the Demonstrator No for what damage commeth by this discipline to the Magistracie from the office of the Prince to the Headboroughes Because the Prince must gouerne after their direction Remonstrance with reply as the learned discourse doth say The Prince shal be but a feeling member not an head or supreme gouernour of the Church Princes must cast downe their Crownes and submit their Scepters to the scepter of the Presbyterie nay which is more odious as T.C. doth apply must licke vp the dust of their feete that is of the Church which is the Presbyterie Because her Maiestie must not onely be directed by the regencie of the Eldership but vpon their iudgements corrected also They will make lawes call Synodes haue the last appellation and many such like as hath bene afore touched Finally because her Maiestie hath neither dispositiue not cōsultatiue voice she may not be priuie what the Presbyterie doeth by her owne presence or by sending her Attorney with many moe as they shall heare The 8. Obiection of the Demonstrator It will send contention and partialitie in iudgement Demonstrat Answere of the Demonstrator Where can it be greater then in the Bishops kingdome Yes forsooth greatest of al in the Tetrarches Popedom Remonstrance with reply But this is but to answer with recriminatiō or reaccusing one another Verily as for the Bishops ministerie it is no kingdome neither your kingdom or tetrarchie any ministery They are gouerned by lawes in al their proceedings but you wil haue selfe wil and law of your owne minde blasphemously father it vpon scripture and Gods word and so you do all most absurd and vnequal decrees of your elderships as in many particulars where they reigne is shewed The 9. obiection of the Demonstrator It wil be contemned and so good order neglected Demonstrat Answere Nay God wil procure awe to it It is the Bishops pompe and officers which deserue contempt But before in the 4. it was tyrannie Remonstrance with Reply here contemptible these are contrary God will not honour those that honour not him or who with a newe inuention glorifie themselues If the Bishops are in contempt you are the men that contemne Fastum Platonis maiore fastu As for tyrannie and contempt they are seated well in you For Psal 12. When Impij circumquaque obambulant quando exaltantur vilitas filijs hominum the worde in Hebrew is Zuloth When your Elders shal be exalted and ride vpon the Cherubims when the many or baser sort doe tyrannize it will be a contemptuous tyrannie in deede The 10. obiection of the Demonstrator All alterations be dangerous Demonstration Answere of the Demonstrator Neuer from Antichrist to Gods obedience this might be Stephen Gardiners Argument All alterations are dangerous Remonstrance with reply where thinges are religiously established as with vs. As for Stephen Gardiner hee made arguments De vera obedientia which you nor T.C.I.P. nor any Papist who alike with you impugne supremacie of Princes in causes Ecclesiasticall can euer answere De mortuis nil nisi bonum pascitur in viuis liuor post fata quiescit So it should be The Assertion The Church must be ruled by the rules of Gods worde c. and not by the cursed and monstrous Canon lawe Demonstration The 1. Demonstration All gouernours are to execute their authoritie by the same warrant from which they haue it But the gouernours of the Church
handes or the censures of the Church inflicted in or since the Apostles time by or vnder the authoritie of those that themselues are no ministers but in all other respectes are meere lay men and but annuall or biennall officers in the Church If they cannot shewe it let them for euer hereafter holde their peace and confesse it to bee in trueth a deuise of mans braine which they woulde seeme so much to detest in Church gouernment The 1. Demonstration That which our Sauiour Christ refused ruling and gouerning the Church Demonstration and teaching the Church that is not lawfull for an ecclesiasticall person to doe but Christ refused to diuide the inheritance Luk. 12.14 Ergo Ecclesiasticall persons may not iudge in ciuill matters The syllogisme is to be concluded newe againe Remonstrance here are foure termini foure termes in three quarters of a yeere One conclusion is Ergo ecclesiasticall persons may not iudge in ciuill causes another should be Ergo ecclesiasticall persons may not diuide lande or inheritance Amphor a caepit institui currente rota sic vrceus exit To the Maior The Maior is to be denied all that our Sauiour refused euery of vs may not refuse he because he came to be a mediatour betweene God and man would not become a common diuider and iudge of euery secular cause of title of land who made me c. neither my heauenly father sent me to that end neither haue I commission from thy brother to sende thee into the moietie of the possession Besides if he had intermedled in the matters of the common weale it would haue strengthened the conceipte that he sought an earthly kingdome and to dispossesse the Romanes To reason from Christes refusal is the refuse of all good reason à non facto ad ius Christ woulde not or did not answere Pilate in iudgement must we therefore conclude Ergo at the tribunall of a Iudge it is at our discretion to answere or not to speake Christ did not condemne the woman taken in the acte of adulterie shall not therefore officers Ecclesiasticall condemne any such sinner To the Minor Christ refused to diuide the inheritance it was because hee woulde not vse the authoritie that hee had as Lorde of Heauen and earth when he came as a seruant not because either a Christian magistrate or minister shoulde after his example lay aside all authoritie 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 who hath appointed me emplieth rather that if he had bene appointed by both the parties he might haue done it and so may any minister arbitrate and compounde a controuersie ciuill that is committed vnto him If any Christians may be iudges of ciuill matters 1. Cor. 6. why may not some ministers in some ciuill matters If then hee may whome the Church appointeth nay whome two priuate men consent vpon though he be a person ecclesiasticall may not the Christian Soueraigne Prince much more commit a ciuill cause vnto them and they lawfully deale in it Or if it will be saide they may not so deale in causes ciuill delegated vnto them is then the sinne hereof in him who delegateth or who is delegated or in both But I neede not wade further into this matter I haue spoken something to it afore More authoritie ciuill then is delegated vnto them no Byshop hath may haue or doeth claime in this Realme and therefore except they will impugne this point their labour is superfluous By the way I will propounde this vnto them If all ciuill rule and authoritie bee denied to persons Ecclesiasticall as in it selfe impious howe may they rule their wiues children and housholde which is oeconomicall power and therefore ciuill as ciuill is opposite to ecclesiasticall Likewise howe may they cast their accompts receiue their rentes c. Nay when they are rubbed with their laye Elders and can no where finde them then they say they are not lay but Ecclesiasticall persons because they haue imposition of handes If they bee therefore so to bee accompted Countrey poyson then howe may they lawfully euen in the yeere of their Eldership be also ciuill magistrates as Sheriffes Iustices of peace maisters of their companies counsellours Syndicks and what not though most ciuill as dayly experience teacheth where that discipline is in vre Belike their assertions and rules are made onely against byshoppes not against themselues The 2. Demonstration That which was forbidden to the Apostles Demonstration is vnlawful for ecclesiastical officers but such dominiō was forbiddē Luk. 22.28 which is to rule ciuilly Ergo. That which was forbidden c. is vnlawfull Remonstrance But ambition tyranny contention for absolute seigneurial and ciuil authoritie was forbidden not a modest either ciuill or ecclesiastical superiority ergo to be ambitious contentious c. is vnlawfull In that here he applieth that of Luke to ciuill rule hee cleareth our Bishoppes from the daunger of it in exercising anie authoritie Ecclesiasticall This Argument is answered before The 3. Demonstration If necessarie dueties are to bee left rather then our duetie in the Church Demonstration then may not a Church-officer deale in ciuill iurisdiction but the former is true for a man may not burie his father Luc. 6.59 Ergo I denie the sequele of the Antecedent Remonstrance albeit some corporall or bodily offices which duetie biddeth to be done may vpon Christes commaundement be left vndone yet this is no barre to ministers and preachers of the Gospel to deale in any necessarie ciuill cause And how is it proued that no ciuill iurisdiction may stand with doing of his Church duetie There is none of themselues but they can be content to be executors to a wealthy widow or such like being no more afraid of it then they are to burie them To the Assumption Your quotation should be the 9. of Luke the meaning of which place is All Christians must lay aside all impedimentes and hinderaunces that may drawe them from comming to Christ but some ciuill authoritie amongst Christians is rather a furtherance What consequence cal ye this A man may not bury his own father rather then not follow Christ or if Christ otherwise encharge him Ergo a minister that liueth in a Christian common wealth may not lawfully haue a branch of commission from the prince for ciuil iurisdiction The 4. Demonstration If he that hath an office must attend on his office Demonstration then may hee not intermeddle with another office But the first is true Rom. 12.7 Ergo not with ciuill iurisdiction He may not intermeddle without lawfull calling or vocation Remonstrance yet the connexion hath no sequele Doe you not see some that haue two offices looke neere inough to both This will roaue at temporall men as well as at ecclesiasticall S. Paul disputeth of diligence in our function not of diuersitie of functions which diuerse functions may concurre in one See the answere to the first thus I retort against your selues He that
is not of your minde Remonstrance with reply Petrus nequaquam imprecatur eis mortem vt stultus Porphirius calumniatur sed Dei iudicium prophetico spiritu annunciat did not curse them by his word as Porphirie the foole would but in a prophetical spirit telleth them of Gods iudgement that was at hand First wee make no such obiection The Bishops haue no prisons they had lately custodias of clerkes conuict but they were not carceres vnto which they committed them for their offence done but were sent thither to be in safetie being persons found guiltie till by course of lawe as it then stood they should be deliuered Yet in one case they may as Bishops by a statute of H. 7. imprison at this day viz. a minister of his Diocesse conuicted of incontinencie he may commit to a priuate prison and enioyne him what straite diet or penance he thinketh fit I thinke so they and their Eldership might haue this authoritie they would let it passe the musters But that the hypocrisie of them may better appeare who here speake against Bishops prisons and ciuill punishments it would be asked of them what difference in the substance of the matter it is for an ecclesiastical person to commit a man to prison himselfe or for their Elderships to haue a bedle or Sergeant of the ciuil Magistrats attending on their Consistories euery Court day who both bringeth thither by force such as will not come being sent for and carieth such to prison as the Eldership iudge to deserue it as the vse of Geneua is or to procure gouernours of Bridewell to whippe one of their Church that abused the Minister in speaches sitting with his Eldership in Consistorie as not long since one of the French Church in London was vsed Belike it is lawfull for vs to crie Take him away crucifie him but we may not in any case kill or punish any man our selues Oh that were ciuill authoritie farre bee it from vs. The argument shoulde proceede thus Peter killed Ananias by ciuill extraordinarie iurisdiction and not by his worde onely although they cannot doe the like Neuerthelesse by ordinarie power committed to them they may doe the lesse and therefore imprison for disciplining the inordinate and correction of the badde where the magistrate imparteth to them such authoritie The sixteenth Chapter Assertion THe placing of Church-officers pertaineth to the Eldership Demonstration and also the displacing The 1. Demonstration They who are lawfully called from heauen to the ministerie outwardly by the means of men may not be displaced being blamelesse 1. Timoth. 3.10 But suche are the ministers whome the Bishoppes doe displace Ergo Howe doeth this agree with the issue Remonstrance or Assertion he taketh vpon him to proue vz. that as hee hath proued he saith afore the Eldershippes authoritie of placing so nowe he proues that they haue the displacing of ministers What euen without the peoples consent Beware this be no tyrannie by your owne constructions Cuius est instituere eius est destituere è conuerso But I pray good Demonstrationers doeth this followe Bishops displace men whom they ought not because they are blamelesse men Ergo displacing of ministers belongeth to the Eldership yet this is your reasoning in this Chapter Your brother Martine Malapert in Thesibus will ease both Bishops and Eldership of this labour For he sayeth that a minister once called may vpon none occasion by any humane authoritie bee displaced or put from preaching Belike it shal be a sanctuarie for him though he preach daily treason or committe anie wickednesse whatsoeuer your griefe is onely because you with your Eldership haue not the displacing of them for if you had it should then well be seene howe farre one man differeth from another and that the commissioners ecclesiastical are but sillie fellowes in comparison of you at remouing of a minister O beware at a dead lift as long as you liue of halfe a score substantial fellowes bredde vp at home To the Minor How many such are there of them whome the Bishops haue displaced Numero vix totidem quot Thebarum portae vel diuit is ostia Nili Not so many as the gates of Thebes haue beene euer so displaced nay name one and we graunt all They are othergates men then you beare the world in hand men cankered with malice pyning away with enuie of the present flourishing estate swolne with pride and ouerweening of themselues whose learning is contention whose zeale is singularitie and factious studie ingendring schisme and heresie in the Church As for the difference betweene vs and them euen so great as is betweene obedience and rebellion to God and the Prince these are the men the Bishops haue displaced let them name their own selues but his meaning is so long as they broch their owne fancies of their Church-gouernment to the people seditiously reuile and traduce the persons of Church-gouernors vniustly inueigh against our publike Lyturgie the lawes orders and rites of this Church ragingly breake all orders and the precious bond of peace and vnitie schismatically and wickedly so long they are blamelesse and not to be displaced Then turne the case the other waies imagine your Discipline were vp and a foote and I a poore minister of that Church and that I wil not obserue the order of praying preaching ministring of Sacramentes and marrying prescribed vnto all ministers by the Synode but in steede of it eyther that which I doe nowe vse or any other cleane differing deuised by my selfe I will likewise inueigh against the iniustice and tyrannie of your Eldershippes and Synodes and of them who assemble there I will confute that kinde of gouernment which my selfe haue subscribed vnto and condemne it as a tumultuous popularitie a newe fiction of mans brayne a multiplied popedome hauing neither reason practise nor commaundement for it and yet otherwayes I hope you shall not distaine me for life or vnsound doctrine shal In euerthelesse bee accounted blamelesse and not bee displaced by you Nay will you rest in displacing I holde that I escape well if I escape with banishment and so saue my life as I knowe to haue beene practised vpon lesse occasions then these by your Eldershippes You will say you haue good groundes to inueigh against ours and that we may not doe so against yours because it is holy pure reformed Discipline and proceeding then here ought to bee the issue and not to be offended that you are displaced as disturbers of the peace of the Church For I tell you we thinke no lesse euill of your gouernment then you speake of ours Qui hominem legibus belluam qui legem hominibus deum praeponit saith Aristotle 3. Polit. And therefore in that all your gouernment is grounded vpon Law-will-I and chested vp Pope-like in your Elders brestes to doe as shall like them best we holde it very tyrannie and as ill as Antichristian gouernement And thus I retort your reason