which is a Person indued with Authority universal to govern all Christian men on Earth no more than there is one Universal Soveraign Prince or State on Earth that hath right to govern all Mankind I deny also that the whole Clergy of a Christian Kingdom or State being assembled are the representative of that Church further than the Civil Laws permits or can lawfully assemble themselves unless by the command or by the leave of the Soveraign Civil Power I say further that the denyal of this point tendeth in England towards the taking away of the Kings Supremacy in causes Ecclesiastical But his Lordship has not here denyed any thing of mine because he has done no more but set down my words He says further that this Doctrine destroyes the Authority of all General Councils which I confess Nor hath any General Council at this day in this Kingdom the force of a Law nor ever had but by the Authority of the King J. D. Neither is he more Orthodox concerning the Holy Scriptures Hitherto that is for the Books of Moses the power of making the Scripture Canonical was in the Civil Soveraign The like he saith of the Old Testament made Canonical by Esdras And of the New Testament That it was not the Apostles which made their own Writings Canonical but every Convert made them so to himself Yet with this restriction That until the Soveraign Ruler had prescribed them they were but Counsel and Advice which whether good or bad he that was counselled might without injustice refuse to observe and being contrary to the Laws established could not without injustice observe He maketh the Primitive Christians to have been in a pretty condition Certainly the Gospel was contrary to the Laws then established But most plainly The word of the Interpreter of the Scripture is the word of God And the same is the Interpreter of the Scripture and the Soveraign Judge of all Doctrines that is the Soveraign Magistrate to whose Authority we must stand no less than to theirs who at first did commend the Scripture to us for the Canon of Faith Thus if Christian Soveraigns of different Communications do clash one with another in their interpretations or misinterpretation of Scripture as they do daily then the word of God is contradictory to it self or that is the word of God in one Common-wealth which is the word of the Devil in another Common-wealth And the same thing may be true and not true at the same time Which is the peculiar priviledge of T.H. to make Contradictories to be true together T. H. There is no doubt but by what Authority the Scripture or any other Writing is made a Law by the same Authority the Scriptures are to be interpreted or else they are made Law in vain But to obey is one thing to believe is another which distinction perhaps his Lordship never heard of To obey is to do or forbear as one is commanded and depends on the Will but to believe depends not on the Will but on the providence and guidance of our hearts that are in the hands of God Almighty Laws only required obedience Belief requires Teachers and Arguments drawn either from Reason or from some thing already believed Where there is no reason for our Belief there is no reason we should believe The reason why men believe is drawn from the Authority of those men whom we have no just cause to mistrust that is of such men to whom no profit accrues by their deceiving us and of such men as never used to lye or else from the Authority of such men whose Promises Threats and Affirmations we have seen confirmed by God with Miracles If it be not from the Kings Authority that the Scripture is Law what other Authority makes it Law Here some man being of his Lordships judgment will perhaps laugh and say 't is the Authority of God that makes them Law I grant that But my question is on what Authority they believe that God is the Author of them Here his Lordship would have been at a Nonplus and turning round would have said the Authority of the Scripture makes good that God is their Author If it be said we are to believe the Scripture upon the Authority of the Universal Church why are not the Books we call Apocrypha the Word of God as well as the rest If this Authority be in the Church of England then it is not any other than the Authority of the Head of the Church which is the King For without the Head the Church is mute the Authority therefore is in the King which is all that I contended for in this point As to the Laws of the Gentiles concerning Religion in the Primitive times of the Church I confess they were contrary to Christian Faith But none of their Laws nor Terrors nor a mans own Will are able to take away Faith though they can compel to an external obedience and though I may blame the Ethnick Princes for compelling men to speak what they thought not yet I absolve not all those that have had the Power in Christian Churches from the same fault For I believe since the time of the first four General Councels there have been more Christians burnt and killed in the Christian Church by Ecclesiastical Authority than by the Heathen Emperors Laws for Religion only without Sedition All that the Bishop does in this Argument is but a heaving at the Kings Supremacy Oh but says he if two Kings interpret a place of Scripture in contrary sences it will follow that both sences are true It does not follow For the interpretation though it be made by just Authority must not therefore always be true If the Doctrine in the one sence be necessary to Salvation then they that hold the other must dye in their sins and be Damned But if the Doctrine in neither sence be necessary to Salvation then all is well except perhaps that they will call one another Atheists and fight about it J. D. All the power vertue use and efficacy which he ascribeth to the Holy Sacraments is to be signs or commemorations As for any sealing or confirming or conferring of Grace he acknowledgeth nothing The same he saith particularly of Baptism Upon which grounds a Cardinals red Hat or a Serjeant at Arms his Mace may be called Sacraments as well as Baptism or the holy Eucharist if they be only signs and commemorations of a benefit If he except that Baptism and the Eucharist are of Divine institution But a Cardinals red Hat or a Serjeant at Arms his Mace are not He saith truly but nothing to his advantage or purpose seeing he deriveth all the Authority of the Word and Sacraments in respect of Subjects and all our obligation to them from the Authority of the Soveraign Magistrate without which these words repent and be Baptized in the name of Jesus are but Counsel no Command And so a Serjeant at Arms his Mace and Baptism proceed both from
else want lawful Heirs to succeed him by which means being not taken for the Head of the Church he was sure in any Controversie between him and the Pope that his Subjects would be against him B. Is not a Christian King as much a Bishop now as the Heathen Kings were of old for among them Episcopus was a Name common to all Kings Is not he a Bishop now to whom God hath committed the charge of all the Souls of his Subjects both of the Laity and the Clergy And though he be in relation to our Saviour who is the chief Pastor but a Sheep yet compared to his own Subjects they are all Sheep both Laique and Clerique and he only Shepherd And seeing a Christian Bishop is but a Christian endued with power to govern the Clergy it follows that every Christian King is not only a Bishop but an Arch-bishop and his whole Dominion his Diocess And though it were granted that Imposition of Hands is necessary from a Priest yet seeing Kings have the Government of the Clergy that are his Subjects even before Baptism the Baptism it self wherein he is receiv'd as a Christian is a sufficient Imposition of Hands so that whereas before he was a Bishop now he is a Christian Bishop A. For my part I agree with you This Prohibition of Marriage to Priests came in about the time of Pope Gregory the 7 th and William the first King of England by which means the Pope had in England what with Secular and what with Regular Priests a great many lusty Batchelors at his service Secondly That Auricular Confession to a Priest was necessary to Salvation 'T is true that before that time Confession to a Priest was usual and performed for the most part by him that confessed in writing but that use was taken away about the time of King Edward the third and Priests commanded to take Confessions from the Mouth of the Confitent and Men did generally believe that without Confession and Absolution before their departure out of the World they could not be saved and having Absolution from a Priest that they could not be damn'd You understand by this how much every Man would stand in awe of the Pope and Clergy more than they would of the King and what Inconvenience it is to a State for their Subjects to confess their secret Thoughts to Spies B. Yes as much as Eternal Torture is more terrible than Death so much they would fear the Clergy more than the King A. And though perhaps the Roman Clergy will not maintain that a Priest hath power to remit sins absolutely but only with a condition of repentance yet the People were never so instructed by them but were left to believe that whensoever they had Absolution their precedent sins were all discharged when their Penance which they took for Repentance was perform'd Within the same time began the Article of Transubstantiation for it had been disputed a long time before in what manner a Man did eat the Body of our Saviour Jesus Christ as being a Point very difficult for a Man to conceive and imagine clearly but now it was made very clear that the Bread was transubstantiated into Christs Body and so was become no more Bread but Flesh. B. It seems then that Christ had many Bodies and was in as many places at once as there were Communicants I think the Priests then were so wanton as to insult upon the dulness not only of Common People but also of Kings and their Councellors A. I am now in a Narration not in a Disputation and therefore I would have you at this time to consider nothing else but what effect this Doctrine would work upon Kings and their Subjects in relation to the Clergy who only were able of a piece of Bread to make our Saviour's Body and thereby at the hour of death to save their Souls B. For my part it would have an effect on me to make me think them Gods and to stand in awe of them as of God himself if he were visibly present A. Besides these and other Articles tending to the upholding of the Popes Authority they had many fine Points in their Ecclesiastical Politie conducing to the same end of which I will mention only such as were established within the same time For then it was the Order came up of Preaching Friars that wandred up and down with power to preach in what Congregation they pleased and were sure enough to instil into the People nothing that might lessen the Obedience to the Church of Rome but on the contrary whatsoever might give advantage to it against the Civil Power Besides they privately insinuated themselves with Women and Men of weak Judgment confirming their adherence to the Pope and urging them in the time of their sickness to be beneficial to it by contribution of Money or building Religious Houses or Pious Works and necessary for the remission of their sins B. I do not remember that I have read of any Kingdom or State in the World where liberty was given to any private Man to call the People together and make Orations frequently to them or at all without first making the State acquainted except only in Christendome I believe the Heathen Kings foresaw that a few such Orators would be able to make a great Sedition Moses did indeed command to read the Scriptures and expound them in the Synagogues every Sabbath-day but the Scriptures then were nothing else but the Laws of the Nation delivered unto them by Moses himself and I believe it would do no hurt if the Laws of England also were often read and expounded in the several Congregations of English-men at times appointed that they may know what to do for they know already what to believe A. I think that neither the preaching of Friers nor Monks nor of Parochial Priests tended to teach Men what but whom to believe for the Power of the Mighty hath no foundation but in the opinion and belief of the People and the end which the Pope had in multiplying Sermons was no other but to prop and enlarge his own Authority over all Christian Kings and States Within the same time that is between the time of the Emperor Charles the Great and of King Edward the third of England began their second Politie which was to bring Religion into an Art and thereby to maintain all the Decrees of the Roman Church by disputation not only from the Scriptures but also from the Philosophy of Aristotle both Moral and Natural and to that end the Pope exhorted the said Emperor by Letter to erect Schools of all kinds of Literature and from thence began the Institution of Universities for not long after the Universities began in Paris and in Oxford It is true that there were Schools in England before that time in several places for the instruction of Children in the Latin Tongue that is to say in the Tongue of the Church but for an University of
this pretence of immunity from contributing to the King but at their own pleasure for when they have laid the burthen of defending the whole Kingdom and governing it upon any person whatsoever there is very little equity he should depend on others for the means of performing it or if he do they are his Sovereign not he theirs And as for the Common Law contained in Reports they have no force but what the King gives them Besides it were more unreasonable that a corrupt or foolish Judge his unjust Sentence should by any time how long soever obtain the Authority and Force of a Law But amongst the Statute Laws there is one called Magna Charta or the Great Charter of the Liberties of English-men in which there is one Article wherein a King heretofore hath granted That no Man shall be distrained that is have his Goods taken from him otherwise than by the Law of the Land B. Is not that a sufficient ground for their purpose A. No that leaves us in the same doubt which you think it clears for where was that Law of the Land then Did they mean another Magna Charta that was made by some King more ancient yet No that Statute was made not to exempt any Man from payments to the Publick but for securing of every Man from such as abused the King's Power by surreptitious obtaining the King's Warrants to the oppressing of those against whom he had any Suit in Law but it was conducing to the ends of some rebellious Spirits in this Parliament to have it interpreted in the wrong sense and suitable enough to the understanding of the rest or most part of them to let it pass B. You make the Members of that Parliament very simple Men and yet the People chose them for the wisest of the Land A. If Craft be wisdom they were wise enough but wise as I define it is he that knows how to bring his business to pass without the assistance of knavery and ignoble shifts by the sole strength of his good contrivance A Fool may win from a better Gamester by the advantage of false Dice and packing of Cards B. According to your definition there be few wise Men now adays such Wisdom is a kind of Gallantry that few are brought up to and most think folly Fine Cloaths Great Feathers Civility towards Men that will not swallow Injuries and Injury towards them that will is the present Gallantry but when the Parliament afterwards having gotten the power into their hands levied Money for their own use what said the People to that A. What else but that it was legal and to be paid as being imposed by consent of Parliaments B. I have heard often that they ought to pay what was imposed by consent of Parliaments to the use of the King but to their own use never before I see by this it is easier to gull the Multitude than any one man amongst them for what one man that has not his natural Judgment deprav'd by accident could be so easily cozened in a matter that concerns his purse had he not been passionately carried away by the rest to change of Government or rather to a Liberty of every one to govern himself A. Judge then what kind of men such a multitude of ignorant People were like to elect for their Burgesses and Knights of Shires B. I can make no other Judgment but that they who were then elected were just such as had been elected for former Parliaments and as are like to be elected for Parliaments to come for the Common People have been and always will be ignorant of their duty to the Publick as never meditating any thing but their particular Interest in other things following their immediate Leaders which are either the Preachers or the most potent of the Gentlemen that dwell amongst them as common Soldiers for the most part follow their immediate Captains if they like them if you think the late miseries have made them wiser that will quickly be forgot and then we shall be no wiser than we were A. Why may not men be taught their duty that is the Science of just and unjust as divers other Sciences have been taught from true Principles and evident Demonstration and much more easily than any of those Preachers and Democratical Gentlemen could teach Rebellion and Treason B. But who can teach what none have learn'd Or if any man hath been so singular as to have studied the Science of Justice and Equity how can he teach it safely when it is against the Interest of those that are in possession of the Power to hurt him A. The Rules of Just and Unjust sufficiently demonstrated and from Principles evident to the meanest capacity have not been wanting and notwithstanding the obscurity of their Author have shined not only in this but also in Forreign Countries to men of good education but they are few in respect of the rest of men whereof many cannot read many though they can have no leisure and of them that have leisure the greatest part have their minds wholly employed and taken up by their private businesses or pleasures So that it is impossible that the Multitude should ever learn their duty but from the Pulpit and upon Holy-days but then and from thence it is that they learned their disobedience And therefore the Light of that Doctrine has been hitherto covered and kept under here by a cloud of Adversaries which no private man's Reputation can break through without the Authority of the Universities but out of the Universities came all those Preachers that taught the contrary The Universities have been to this Nation as the Wooden Horse was to the Trojans B. Can you tell me why and when the Universities here and in other places first began A. It seems for the time they began in the Reign of the Emperor Charles the Great before which time I doubt not but that there were many Grammar Schools for the Latin Tongue which was the natural Language of the Roman Church but for Universities that is to say Schools for the Sciences in general and especially for Divinity it is manifest that the Institution of them was recommended by the Pope's Letter to the Emperor Charles the Great and recommended farther by a Council held in his time I think at Chalon sur Saone and not long after was erected an University at Paris and the Colledge call'd Vniversity-Colledge at Oxford And so by degrees several Bishops Noble-men and Rich-men and some Kings and Queens contributing thereunto the Universities obtained at last their present splendor B. But what was the Pope's design in it A. What other design was he like to have but what you heard before the advancement of his own Authority in the Countries where the Universities were erected There they learned to dispute for him and with unintelligible distinctions to blind mens Eyes whilst they incroached upon the Right of Kings and it was an evident Argument of that Design
are sent by him Love God with all your Soul and your Neighbour as your self are words of the Scripture which are well enough understood but neither Children nor the greatest part of Men do understand why it is their Duty to do so They see not that the safety of the Common-wealth and consequently their own depends upon their doing it Every man by nature without discipline does in all his Actions look upon as far as he can see the benefit that shall redound to himself from his obedience He reads that Covetousness is the root of all evil but he thinks and sometimes finds it is the root of his Estate And so in other Cases the Scripture says one thing and they think another weighing the Commodities or Incommodities of this present life only which are in their sight never putting into the Scales the Good and Evil of the Life to come which they see not A. All this is no more than happens where the Scripture is seal'd up in Greek and Latin and the People taught the same things out of them by Preachers But they that are of a Condition and Age fit to examine the sense of what they read and that take a delight in searching out the Grounds of their Duty certainly cannot choose but by their reading of the Scriptures come to such a sense of their Duty as not only to obey the Laws themselves but also to induce others to do the same for commonly Men of Age and Quality are followed by their inferior Neighbours that look more upon the Example of those Men whom they reverence and whom they are unwilling to displease than upon Precepts and Laws B. These Men of the Condition and Age you speak of are in my opinion the unfittest of all others to be trusted with the reading of the Scriptures I know you mean such as have studied the Greek or Latin or both Tongues and that are withal such as love knowledge and consequently take delight in finding out the meaning of the most hard Texts or in thinking they have found it in case it be new and not found out by others These are therefore they that pretermitting the easie places which teach them their Duty fall to scanning only of the Mysteries of Religion such as are How it may be made out with wit that there be three that bear Rule in Heaven and those three but One How the Deity could be made Flesh How that Flesh could be really present in many places at once Where 's the Place and what the Torments of Hell and other Metaphysical Doctrines Whether the Will of Man be free or governed by the Will of God Whether Sanctity comes by Inspiration or Education By whom Christ now speaks to us Whether by the King or by the Clergy or by the Bible to every man that reads it and interprets it to himself or by a private Spirit to every private Man These and the like Points are the study of the Curious and the cause of all our late mischief and the cause that makes the plainer sort of Men whom the Scripture had taught belief in Christ Love towards God Obedience to the King and sobriety of behaviour forget it all and place their Religion in the disputable Doctrines of these your wise Men. A. I do not think these men fit to interpret the Scripture to the rest nor do I say that the rest ought to take their Interpretation for the Word of God Whatsoever is necessary for them to know is so easie as not to need Interpretation Whatsoever is more does them no good But in case any of those unnecessary Doctrines shall be authorized by the Laws of the King or other State I say it is the Duty of every Subject not to speak against them in as much as it is every man's Duty to obey Him or Them that have the Sovereign Power and the Wisdom of all such Powers to punish such as shall publish or teach their private Interpretations when they are contrary to the Law and likely to incline men to Sedition or Disputing against the Law B. They must punish then the most of those that have had their breeding in the Universities for such curious Questions in Divinity are first started in the Universities and so are all those Politick Questions concerning the Rights of Civil and Ecclesiastick Government and there they are furnished with Arguments for Liberty out of the Works of Aristotle Plato Cicero Seneca and out of the Histories of Rome and Greece for their Disputation against the necessary Power of their Sovereigns Therefore I despair of any lasting Peace amongst our selves till the Universities here shall bend and direct their Studies to the setling of it that is to the teaching of absolute Obedience to the Laws of the King and to his Publick Edicts under the Great Seal of England for I make no doubt but that solid Reason back'd with the Authority of so many Learned Men will more prevail for the keeping of us in peace within our selves than any Victory can do over the Rebels but I am afraid that 't is impossible to bring the Universities to such a compliance with the Actions of State as is necessary for the business A. Seeing the Universities have heretofore from time to time maintain'd the Authority of the Pope contrary to all Laws Divine Civil and Natural against the Right of our Kings why can they not as well when they have all manner of Laws and Equity on their side maintain the Rights of him that is both Sovereign of the Kingdom and Head of the Church B. Why then were they not in all Points for the King's Power presently after that King Henry the 8 th was in Parliament declared Head of the Church as much as they were before for the Authority of the Pope A. Because the Clergy in the Universities by whom all things there are governed and the Clergy without the Universities as well Bishops as inferior Clerks did think that the pulling down of the Pope was the setting up of them as to England in his place and made no question the greatest part of them but that their Spiritual Power did depend not upon the Authority of the King but of Christ himself derived to them by a successive Imposition of Hands from Bishop to Bishop notwithstanding they knew that this derivation passed through the Hands of Popes and Bishops whose Authority they had cast off For though they were content that the Divine Right which the Pope pretended to in England should be denied him yet they thought it not so fit to be taken from the Church of England whom they now supposed themselves to represent It seems they did not think it reasonable that a Woman or a Child or a Man that could not construe the Hebrew Greek or Latin Bible nor know perhaps the Declensions and Conjugations of Greek or Latin Nouns and Verbs should take upon him to govern so many learned Doctors in matters of Religion meaning matters
the House nevertheless hearing of it from some of his Fellow-Members may certainly not only take notice of it but also speak to it in the House of Commons but to make the King give up his Friends and Councellors to them to be put to death banishment or imprisonment for their good will to him was such a Tyranny over a King no King ever exercised over any Subject but in Cases of Treason or Murder and seldom then A. Presently hereupon began a kind of War between the Pens of the Parliament and those of the Secretaries and other able men that were with the King For upon the 15 th of December they sent to the King a Paper called A Remonstrance of the State of the Kingdom and with it a Petition both which they caused to be published In the Remonstrance they complained of certain mischievous Designs of a Malignant Party then before the beginning of the Parliament grown ripe and did set forth what means had been used for the preventing of it by the wisdom of the Parliament what rubs they had found therein what course was fit to be taken for restoring and establishing the Ancient Honour Greatness and Safety of the Crown and Nation 1 st And of these Designs the Promoters and Actors were they said Jesuited Papists 2 ly The Bishops and that part of the Clergy that cherish formality as a support of their own Ecclesiastical Tyranny and Usurpation 3 ly Councellors and Courtiers that for private ends they said had engaged themselves to farther the Interests of some Forreign Princes B. It may very well be that some of the Bishops and also some of the Court may have in pursuit of their private Interest done something indiscreetly and perhaps wickedly therefore I pray you tell me in particular what their crimes were for methinks the King should not have conniv'd at any thing against his own Supream Authority A. The Parliament were not very keen against them that were against the King they made no doubt but all they did was by the King's Command but accus'd thereof the Bishops Councellors and Courtiers as being a more mannerly way of accusing the King himself and defaming him to his Subjects For the truth is the Charge they brought against them was so general as not to be called an Accusation but Railing As first they said they nourished Questions of Prerogative and Liberty between the King and his People to the end that seeming much addicted to his Majesties Service they might get themselves into Places of greatest Trust and Power in the Kingdom B. How could this be called an Accusation in which there is no Fact for any Accusers to apply their Proofs to or their Witnesses for granting that these Questions of Prerogative had been moved by them who can prove that their end was to gain to themselves and Friends the Places of Trust and Power in the Kingdom A. A second Accusation was That they endeavoured to suppress the purity and power of Religion B. That 's Canting it is not in man's power to suppress the power of Religion A. They meant that they suppress the Doctrine of the Presbyterians that is to say the very foundation of the then Parliaments treacherous pretensions A third That they cherished Arminians Papists and Libertines by which they meant the common Protestants which meddle not with Disputes to the end they might compose a Body fit to act according to their Counsels and Resolutions A Fourth That they endeavoured to put the King upon other courses of raising Money than by the ordinary way of Parliaments Judge whether these may be properly called Accusations or not rather spiteful Reproaches of the King's Government B. Methinks this last was a very great fault for what good could there be in putting the King upon an odd course of getting Money when the Parliament was willing to supply him as far as to the security of the Kingdom or to the Honour of the King should be necessary A. But I told you before they would give him none but with a condition he should cut off the Heads of whom they pleas'd how faithfully soever they had serv'd him and if he would have sacrificed all his Friends to their Ambition yet they would have found other excuses for denying him Subsidies for they were resolv'd to take from him the Sovereign Power to themselves which they could never do without taking great care that he should have no Money at all In the next place they put into the Remonstrance as faults of them whose Counsel the King followed all those things which since the beginning of the King's Reign were by them misliked whether faults or not and whereof they were not able to judge for want of knowledge of the Causes and Motives that induced the King to do them and were known only to the King himself and such of his Privy-Council as he revealed them to B. But what were those particular pretended faults A. 1. The Dissolution of his first Parliament at Oxford 2. The Dissolution of his second Parliament being in the second year of his Reign 3. The Dissolution of his Parliament in the fourth year of his Reign 4. The fruitless Expedition against Cales 5. The Peace made with Spain whereby the Palatines Cause was deserted and left to chargeable and hopeless Treaties 6. The sending of Commissions to raise Money by way of Loan 7. Raising of Ship-Money 8. Enlargement of Forrests contrary to Magna Charta 9. The Design of engrossing all the Gunpowder into one hand and keeping it in the Tower of London 10. A Design to bring in the use of Brass Money 11. The Fines Imprisonments Stigmatizings Mutilations Whippings Pillories Gags Confinements and Banishments by Sentence in the Court of Star-Chamber 12. The displacing of Judges 13. Illegal Acts of the Council-Table 14. The Arbitrary and Illegal Power of the Earl Marshal's Court. 15. The abuses in Chancery Exchequer Chamber and Court of Wards 16. The selling of Titles of Honour of Judges and Serjeants Places and other Offices 17. The Insolence of Bishops and other Clerks in Suspensions Excommunications Deprivations and Degradations of divers painful and learned and pious Ministers B. Were there any such Ministers degraded deprived or excommunicated A. I cannot tell but I remember I have heard threatned divers painful unlearned and seditious Ministers 18. The Excess of severity of the High-Commission Court 19. The Preaching before the King against the Property of the Subject and for the Prerogative of the King above the Law and divers other petty quarrels they had to the Government which though they were laid upon this Faction yet they knew they would fall upon the King himself in the Judgment of the People to whom by printing it was communicated Again after the Dissolution of the Parliament May the 5 th 1640. they find other faults as the Dissolution it self The Imprisoning some Members of both Houses A forced Loan of Money attempted in London The Continuance of the Convocation
the same Authority And this he saith upon this silly ground That nothing is a Command the performance whereof tendeth to our own benefit He might as well deny the Ten Commandments to be Commands because they have an advantagious promise annexed to them Do this and thou shalt live And Cursed is every one that continueth not in all the words of this Law to do them T. H. Of the Sacraments I said no more than that they are Signs or Commemorations He finds fault that I add not Seals Confirmations and that they confer grace First I would have asked him if a Seal be any thing else besides a Sign whereby to remember somewhat as that we have promised accepted acknowledged given undertaken somewhat Are not other Signs though without a Seal of force sufficient to convince me or oblige me A Writing obligatory or Release signed only with a mans name is as Obligatory as a Bond signed and sealed if it be sufficiently proved though peradventure it may require a longer Process to obtain a Sentence but his Lordship I think knew better than I do the force of Bonds and Bills yet I know this that in the Court of Heaven there is no such difference between saying signing and sealing as his Lordship seemeth here to pretend I am Baptized for a Commemoration that I have enrolled my self I take the Sacrament of the Lords Supper to Commemorate that Christ's Body was broken and his Blood shed for my redemption What is there more intimated concerning the nature of these Sacraments either in the Scripture or in the Book of Common-Prayer Have Bread and Wine and Water in their own Nature any other Quality than they had before the Consecration It is true that the Consecration gives these bodies a new Relation as being a giving and dedicating of them to God that is to say a making of them Holy not a changing of their Quality But as some silly young men returning from France affect a broken English to be thought perfect in the French language so his Lordship I think to seem a perfect understander of the unintelligible language of the Schoolmen pretends an ignorance of his Mother Tongue He talks here of Command and Counsel as if he were no English man nor knew any difference between their significations What English man when he commandeth says more than Do this yet he looks to be obeyed if obedience be due unto him But when he says Do this and thou shalt have such or such a Reward he encourages him or advises him or Bargains with him but Commands him not Oh the understanding of a Schoolman J. D. Sometimes he is for holy Orders and giveth to the Pastors of the Church the right of Ordination and Absolution and Infallibility too much for a particular Pastor or the Pastors of one particular Church It is manifest that the consecration of the chiefest Doctors in every Church and imposition of hands doth pertain to the Doctors of the same Church And it cannot be doubted of but the power of binding and loosing was given by Christ to the future Pastors after the same manner as to his present Apostles And our Saviour hath promised this infallibility in those things which are necessary to Salvation to his Apostles until the day of Judgment that is to say to the Apostles and Pastors to be Consecrated by the Apostles successively by the imposition of hands But at other times he casteth all this Meal down with his foot Christian Soveraigns are the supream Pastors and the only persons whom Christians now hear speak from God except such as God speaketh to in these dayes supernaturally What is now become of the promised infallibility And it is from the Civil Soveraign that all other Pastors derive their right of teaching preaching and all other functions pertaining to that Office and they are but his Ministers in the same manner as the Magistrates of Towns or Judges in Courts of Justice and Commanders of Armies What is now become of their Ordination Magistrates Judges and Generals need no precedent qualifications He maketh the Pastoral Authority of Soveraigns to be Jure divino of all other Pastors Jure civili He addeth neither is there any Judge of Heresie among Subjects but their own civil Soveraign Lastly the Church Excommunicateth no man but whom she Excommunicateth by the Authority of the Prince And the effect of Excommunication hath nothing in it neither of dammage in this World nor terror upon an Apostate if the Civil Power did persecute or not assist the Church And in the World to come leaves them in no worse estate than those who never believed The dammage rather redoundeth to the Church Neither is the Excommunication of a Christian Subject that obeyeth the Laws of his own Soveraign of any effect Where is now their power of binding and loosing T. H. Here his Lordship condemneth first my too much kindness to the Pastors of the Church as if I ascribed Infallibility to every particular Minister or at least to the Assembly of the Pastors of a particular Church But he mistakes me I never meant to flatter them so much I say only that the Ceremony of Consecration and Imposition of hands belongs to them and that also no otherwise than as given them by the Laws of the Common-wealth The Bishop Consecrates but the King both makes him Bishop and gives him his Authority The Head of the Church not only gives the power of Consecration Dedication and Benediction but may also exercise the Act himself if he please Solomon did it and the Book of Canons says That the King of England has all the Right that any good King of Israel had It might have added that any other King or soveraign Assembly had in their own Dominions I deny That any Pastor or any Assembly of Pastors in any particular Church or all the Churches on earth though united are Infallible Yet I say the Pastors of a Christian Church assembled are in all such points as are necessary to Salvation But about what points are necessary to Salvation he and I differ For I in the 43d chapter of my Leviathan have proved that this Article Jesus is the Christ is the unum necessarium the only Article necessary to Salvation to which his Lordship hath not offered any Objection And he it seems would have necessary to Salvation every Doctrine he himself thought so Doubtless in this Article Jesus is the Christ every Church is infallible for else it were no Church Then he says I overthrow this again by saying that Christian Soveraigns are the Supream Pastors that is Heads of their own Churches That they have their Authority Jure Divino That all other Pastors have it Jure Civili How came any Bishop to have Authority over me but by Letters Patents from the King I remember a Parliament wherein a Bishop who was both a good Preacher and a good Man was blamed for a Book he had a little before Published in maintenance
of the Jus Divinum of Bishops a thing which before the Reformation here was never allowed them by the Pope Two Jus Divinums cannot stand together in one Kingdom In the last place he mislikes that the Church should Excommunicate by Authority of the King that is to say by Authority of the Head of the Church But he tells not why He might as well mislike that the Magistrates of the Realm should execute their Offices by the Authority of the Head of the Realm His Lordship was in a great error if he thought such incroachments would add any thing to the Wealth Dignity Reverence or Continuance of his Order They are Pastors of Pastors but yet they are the Sheep of him that is on earth their soveraign Pastor and he again a Sheep of that supream Pastor which is in Heaven And if they did their pastoral Office both by Life and Doctrine as they ought to do there could never arise any dangerous Rebellion in the Land But if the people see once any ambition in their Teachers they will sooner learn that than any other Doctrine and from Ambition proceeds Rebellion J. D. It may be some of T. H. his Disciples desire to know what hopes of Heavenly joyes they have upon their Masters Principles They may hear them without any great contentment There is no mention in Scripture nor ground in reason of the Coelum Empyraeum that is the Heaven of the Blessed where the Saints shall live eternally with God And again I have not found any Text that can probably be drawn to prove any Ascention of the Saints into Heaven that is to say into any Coelum Empyraeum But he concludeth positively that Salvation shall be upon earth when God shall Raign at the coming of Christ in Jerusalem And again In short the Kingdom of God is a civil Kingdom c. called also the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of Glory All the Hobbians can hope for is to be restored to the same condition which Adam was in before his fall So saith T.H. himself From whence may be inferred that the Elect after the Resurrection shall be restored to the estate wherein Adam was before he had sinned As for the beatifical vision he defineth it to be a word unintelligible T. H. This Coelum Empyraeum for which he pretendeth so much zeal where is it in the Scripture where in the Book of Common Prayer where in the Canons where in the Homilies of the Church of England or in any part of our Religion What has a Christian to do with such Language Nor do I remember it in Aristotle Perhaps it may be in some Schoolman or Commentator on Aristotle and his Lordship makes it in English the Heaven of the Blessed as if Empyraeum signified That which belongs to the Blessed St. Austin says better that after the day of Judgment all that is not Heaven shall be Hell Then for Beatifical vision how can any man understand it that knows from the Scripture that no man ever saw or can see God Perhaps his Lordship thinks that the happiness of the Life to come is not real but a Vision As for that which I say Lev. pag. 345. I have answered to it already J. D. But considering his other Principles I do not marvel much at his extravagance in this point To what purpose should a Coelum Empyraeum or Heaven of the Blessed serve in his judgment who maketh the blessed Angels that are the Inhabitants of that happy Mansion to be either Idols of the brain that is in plain English nothing or thin subtil fluid bodies destroying the Angelical nature The universe being the aggregate of all bodies there is no real part thereof that is not also body And elsewhere Every part of the Vniverse is Body and that which is not Body is no part of the Vniverse And because the Vniverse is all that which is no part of it is nothing and consequently no where How By this Doctrine he maketh not only the Angels but God himself to be nothing Neither doth he salve it at all by supposing erroneously Angels to be corporeal Spirits and by attributing the name of incorporeal Spirit to God as being a name of more honour in whom we consider not what Attribute best expresseth his nature which is incomprehensible but what best expresseth our desire to honour him Though we be not able to comprehend perfectly what God is yet we are able perfectly to comprehend what God is not that is he is not imperfect and therefore he is not finite and consequently he is not corporeal This were a trim way to honour God indeed to honour him with a lye If this that he say here be true That every part of the Vniverse is a Body and whatsoever is not a Body is nothing Then by this Doctrine if God be not a Body God is nothing not an incorporeal Spirit but one of the Idols of the Brain a meer nothing though they think they dance under a Net and have the blind of Gods incomprehensibility between them and discovery T. H. This of Incorporeal substance he urged before and there I answered it I wonder he so often rolls the same stone He is like Sysiphus in the Poets Hell that there rolls a heavy stone up a hill which no sooner he brings to day-light then it slips down again to the bottom and serves him so perpetually For so his Lordship rolls this and other questions with much adoe till they come to the light of Scripture and then they vanish and he vexing sweating and railing goes to 't again to as little purpose as before From that I say of the Universe he infers that I make God to be nothing But infers it absurdly He might indeed have inferr'd that I make him a Corporeal but yet a pure Spirit I mean by the Universe the Aggregate of all things that have being in themselves and so do all men else And because God has a being it follows that he is either the whole Universe or part of it Nor does his Lordship go about to disprove it but only seems to wonder at it J. D. To what purpose should a Coelum Empyraeum serve in his Judgment who denyeth the immortality of the Soul The Doctrine is now and hath been a long time far otherwise namely that every man hath eternity of life by nature in as much as his Soul is immortal Who supposeth that when a man dyeth there remaineth nothing of him but his Carkase who maketh the word Soul in holy Scripture to signifie always either the Life or the Living Creature And expoundeth the casting of Body and Soul into Hell-fire to be the casting of Body and Life into Hell-fire Who maketh this Orthodox truth that the Souls of men are Substances distinct from their Bodies to be an error contracted by the contagion of the Demonology of the Greeks and a window that gives entrance to the dark Doctrine of eternal torments Who expoundeth these words
lawful for a man to value his own life or his limbs more than his God How much is he wiser than the three Children or Daniel himself who were thrown the first into a fiery Furnace the last into the Lions Denn because they refused to comply with the Idolatrous Decree of their Soveraign Prince T. H. Here also my words are truly cited But his Lordship understood not what the word Worship signifies and yet he knew what I meant by it To think highly of God as I had defined it is to honour him But to think is internal To Worship is to signifie that Honour which we inwardly give by signs external This understood as by his Lordship it was all he says to it is but a cavil J. D. A fourth Aphorism may be this That which is said in the Scripture it is better to obey God than man hath place in the Kingdom of God by Pact and not by Nature Why Nature it self doth teach us it is better to obey God than men Neither can he say that he intended this only of obedience in the use of indifferent actions and gestures in the service of God commanded by the Common-wealth for that is to obey both God and man But if divine Law and humane Law clash one with another without doubt it is evermore better to obey God than man T. H. Here again appears his unskilfulness in reasoning Who denyes but it is alwayes and in all causes better to obey God than Man But there is no Law neither divine nor humane that ought to be taken for a Law till we know what it is and if a divine Law till we know that God hath commanded it to be kept We agree that the Scriptures are the Word of God But they are a Law by Pact that is to us who have been Baptized into the Covenant To all others it is an invitation only to their own benefit 'T is true that even nature suggesteth to us that the Law of God is to be obeyed rather than the Law of man But nature does not suggest to us that the Scripture is the Law of God much less how every Text of it ought to be interpreted But who then shall suggest this Dr. Bramhall I deny it Who then The stream of Divines Why so Am I that have the Scripture it self before my eyes obliged to venture my eternal life upon their interpretation how learned soever they pretend to be when no counter-security that they can give me will save me harmless If not the stream of Divines who then The lawful Assembly of Pastors or of Bishops But there can be no lawful Assembly in England without the Authority of the King The Scripture therefore what it is and how to be interpreted is made known unto us here by no other way than the Authority of our Soveraign Lord both in Temporals and Spirituals The Kings Majesty And where he has set forth no Interpretation there I am allowed to follow my own as well as any other man Bishop or not Bishop For my own part all that know me know also it is my opinion That the best government in Religion is by Episcopacy but in the King 's Right not in their own But my Lord of Derry not contented with this would have the utmost resolution of our Faith to be into the Doctrine of the Schools I do not think that all the Bishops be of his mind If they were I would wish them to stand in fear of that dreadful Sentence All covet all lose I must not let pass these words of his Lordship If divine Law and humane Law clash one with another without doubt it is better evermore to obey God than man Where the King is a Christian believes the Scripture and hath the Legislative power both in Church and State and maketh no Laws concerning Christian Faith or divine Worship but by the Counsel of his Bishops whom he trusteth in that behalf if the Bishops counsel him aright what clashing can there be between the divine and humane Laws For if the Civil Law be against God's Law and the Bishops make it clearly appear to the King that it clasheth with divine Law no doubt he will mend it by himself or by the advice of his Parliament for else he is no professor of Christ's Doctrine and so the clashing is at an end But if they think that every opinion they hold though obscure and unnecessary to Salvation ought presently to be Law then there will be clashings innumerable not only of Laws but also of Swords as we have found it too true by late experience But his Lordship is still at this that there ought to be for the divine Laws that is to say for the interpretation of Scripture a Legislative power in the Church distinct from that of the King which under him they enjoy already This I deny Then for clashing between the Civil Laws of Infidels with the Law of God the Apostles teach that those their Civil Laws are to be obeyed but so as to keep their Faith in Christ entirely in their hearts which is an obedience easily performed But I do not believe that Augustus Caesar or Nero was bound to make the holy Scripture Law and yet unless they did so they could not attain to eternal life J. D. His fifth conclusion may be that the sharpest and most successful Sword in any War whatsoever doth give Soveraign Power and Authority to him that hath it to approve or reject all sorts of Theological Doctrines concerning the Kingdom of God not according to their truth or falshood but according to that influence which they have upon political affairs Hear him But because this Doctrine will appear to most men a novelty I do but propound it maintaining nothing in this or any other Paradox of Religion but attending the end of that dispute of the Sword concerning the Authority not yet amongst my Country-men decided by which all sorts of Doctrine are to be approved or rejected c. For the points of Doctrine concerning the Kingdom of God have so great influence upon the Kingdom of Man as not to be determined but by them that under God have the Soveraign Power Careat successibus opto Quisquis ab eventu facta notanda putat Let him evermore want success who thinketh actions are to be judged by their events This Doctrine may be plausible to those who desire to fish in troubled Waters But it is justly hated by those which are in Authority and all those who are lovers of peace and tranquillity The last part of this conclusion smelleth rankly of Jeroboam Now shall the Kingdom return to the house of David if this people go up to do Sacrifice in the house of the Lord at Jerusalem whereupon the King took counsel and made two Calves of Gold and said unto them It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem behold thy Gods O Israel which brought thee out of the Land of Aegypt But by the
in defence of the Civil Power that must be punish'd by him whose Rights he defended like Vzza that was slain because he would needs unbidden put forth his Hand to keep the Ark from falling But what if a whole Nation should revolt from the Pope at once what effect could Excommunication have upon the Nation A. Why they should have no more Mass said at least by any of the Popes Priests Besides the Pope would have no more to do with them but cast them off and so they would be in the same Case as if a Nation should be cast off by their King and left to be governed by themselves or whom they would B. This would not be taken so much for a punishment to the People as to the King and therefore when a Pope Excommunicates a whole Nation methinks he rather Excommunicates himself than them But I pray you tell me what were the Rights that the Pope pretended to in the Kingdoms of other Princes A. First An Exemption of all Priests Friars and Monks in Criminal Causes from the Cognizance of Civil Judges Secondly Collation of Benefices on whom he pleased Native or Stranger and exaction of Tenths First Fruits and other Payments Thirdly Appeals to Rome in all Causes where the Church could pretend to be concern'd Fourthly To be the Supream Judge concerning Lawfulness of Marriage i. e. concerning the Hereditary Succession of Kings and to have the Cognisance of all Causes concerning Adultery and Fornication B. Good A Monopoly of Women A. Fifthly A Power of absolving Subjects of their Duties and of their Oaths of Fidelity to their lawful Sovereigns when the Pope should think fit for the extirpation of Heresie B. This Power of absolving Subjects of their Obedience as also that other of being Judge of Manners and Doctrine is as absolute a Sovereignty as is possible to be and consequently there must be two Kingdoms in one and the same Nation and no Man be able to know which of his Masters he must obey A. For my part I should rather obey that Master that had the Right of making Laws and of inflicting Punishments than him that pretendeth only to a Right of making Canons that is to say Rules and no Right of Co-action or otherwise punishing but by Excommunication B. But the Pope pretends also that his Canons are Laws and for punishing can there be greater than Excommunication supposing it true as the Pope saith it is that he that dies Excommunicate is damn'd Which supposition it seems you believe not else you would rather have chosen to obey the Pope that would cast you Body and Soul into Hell than the King that can only kill the Body A. You say true for it were very uncharitable in me to believe that all English men except a few Papists that have been born and called Hereticks ever since the Reformation of Religion in England should be damn'd B. But for those that die Excommunicate in the Church of England at this day do you not think them also damn'd A. Doubtless he that dies in sin without repentance is damn'd and he that is Excommunicate for disobedience to the Kings Laws either Spiritual or Temporal is Excommunicate for sin and therefore if he die Excommunicate and without desire of reconciliation he dies impenitent You see what follows but to die in disobedience to the Precepts and Doctrines of those Men that have no Authority or Jurisdiction over us is quite another Case and bringeth no such danger with it B. But what is this Heresie which the Church of Rome so cruelly persecutes as to depose Kings that do not when they are bidden turn all Hereticks out of their Dominions A. Heresie is a word which when it is used without passion signifies a private Opinion So the different Sects of the old Philosophers Academians Peripateticks Epicureans Stoicks c. were called Heresies but in the Christian Church there was in the signification of that word comprehended a sinful opposition to him that was chief Judge of Doctrines in order to the salvation of Mens Souls and consequently Heresie may be said to bear the same relation to the Power Spiritual that Rebellion doth to the Power Temporal and is suitably to be persecuted by him that will preserve a Power Spiritual and Dominion over Mens Consciences B. It would be very well because we are all of us permitted to read the Holy Scriptures and bound to make them the Rule of our Actions both publick and private that Heresie were by some Law defined and the particular Opinions set forth for which a man were to be condemned and punished as a Heretick for else not only Men of mean capacity but even the wisest and devoutest Christian may fall into Heresie without any will to oppose the Church for the Scriptures are hard and the Interpretations different of different men A. The meaning of the word Heresie is by Law declared in an Act of Parliament in the first year of Queen Elizabeth wherein it is ordain'd That the persons who had by the Queens Letters Patents the Authority Spiritual meaning the High Commission shall not have Authority to adjudge any Matter or Cause to be Heresie but only such as heretofore have been adjudged to be Heresie by the Authority of the Canonical Scriptures or by the first four General Councils or by any other General Council where the same was declared Heresie by the express and plain words of the said Canonical Scriptures or such as hereafter shall be adjudged Heresie by the High Court of Parliament of this Realm with the Assent of the Clergy in their Convocation B. It seems therefore if there arise any new error that hath not yet been declared Heresie and many such may arise it cannot be judged Heresie without a Parliament for how foul soever the error be it cannot have been declar'd Heresie neither in the Scriptures nor in the Councils because it was never before heard of and consequently there can be no error unless it fall within the compass of Blasphemy against God or Treason against the King for which a man can in Equity be punished Besides who can tell what is declared by the Scripture which every man is allowed to read and interpret to himself Nay more what Protestant either of the Laity or Clergy if every General Council can be a competent Judge of Heresie is not already condemned for divers Councils have declared a great many of our Doctrines to be Heresie and that as they pretend upon the Authority of the Scriptures A. What are those Points that the first four General Councils have declared Heresie B. The first General Council held at Nicaea declared all to be Heresie which was contrary to the Nicene Creed upon occasion of the Heresie of Arrius which was the denying the Divinity of Christ. The second General Council held at Constantinople declared Heresie the Doctrine of Macedonius which was that the Holy Ghost was created The third Council assembled at Ephesus condemned the
Doctrine of Nestorius that there were two Persons in Christ. The fourth held at Chalcedon condemned the error of Eutyches that there was but one Nature in Christ. I know of no other Points condemned in these four Councils but such as concern Church-Government or the same Doctrines taught by other Men in other words and these Councils were all called by the Emperors and by them their Decrees confirmed at the Petition of the Councils themselves A. I see by this that both the calling of the Council and the Confirmation of their Doctrine and Church-Government had no obligatory force but from the Authority of the Emperor How comes it then to pass that they take upon them now a Legislative Power and say their Canons are Laws That Text All Power is given to me in Heaven and Earth had the same force then as it hath now and conferred a Legislative Power on the Councils not only over Christian Men but over all Nations in the World B. They say no for the Power they pretend to is derived from this that when a King was converted from Gentilisme to Christianity he did by that very submission to the Bishop that converted him submit to the Bishops Government and became one of his Sheep which Right therefore he could not have over any Nation that was not Christian. A. Did Sylvester which was Pope of Rome in the time of Constantine the great converted by him tell the Emperor his new Disciple before hand that if he became a Christian he must be the Popes Subject B. I believe not for it is likely enough if he had told him so plainly or but made him suspect it he would either have been no Christian at all or but a counterfeit one A. But if he did not tell him so and that plainly it was foul play not only in a Priest but in any Christian and for this derivation of their Right from the Emperors consent it proceeds only from this that they dare not challenge a Legislative Power nor call their Canons Laws in any Kingdom in Christendome farther than the Kings make them so But in Peru when Atabalipa was King the Frier told him that Christ being King of all the World had given the disposing of all the Kingdoms therein to the Pope and that the Pope had given Peru to the Roman Emperor Charles the 5 th and requir'd Atabalipa to resign it and for refusing it seized upon his person by the Spanish Army there present and murdered him you see by this how much they claim when they have power to make it good B. When began the Popes to take this Authority upon them first A. After the Inundation of Northern People had overflowed the Western parts of the Empire and possessed themselves of Italy the People of the City of Rome submitted themselves as well in Temporals as Spirituals to their Bishop and then first was the Pope a Temporal Prince and stood no more in so great fear of the Emperors which lived far off at Constantinople In this time it was that the Pope began by pretence of his Power Spiritual to encroach upon the Temporal Rights of all other Princes of the West and so continued gaining upon them till his Power was at the highest in that 300 years or thereabout which passed between the 8 th and 11 th Century that is between the time of Pope Leo the third and Pope Innocent the third For in this time Pope Zachary the first deposed Chilperic then King of France and gave the Kingdom to one of his Subjects Pepin and Pepin took from the Lombards a great part of their Territory and gave it to the Church Shortly after the Lombards having recover'd their Estate Charles the Great retook it and gave it to the Church again and Pope Leo the third made Charles Emperor B. But what Right did the Pope then pretend for the creating of an Emperor A. He pretended the Right of being Christ's Vicar and what Christ could give his Vicar might give and you know that Christ was King of all the World B. Yes as God and so he gives all the Kingdoms of the World which nevertheless proceed from the consent of People either for fear or hope A. But this Gift of the Empire was in a more special manner in such a manner as Moses had the Government of Israel given him or rather as Joshuah had it given him to go in and out before the People as the High-Priest should direct him and so the Empire was understood to be given him on condition to be directed by the Pope for when the Pope invested him with the Regal Ornaments the People all cried out Deus dat that is to say 't is God that gives it and the Emperor was contented so to take it And from that time all or most of the Christian Kings do put into their Titles the words Dei gratia that is by the Gift of God and their Successors use still to receive the Crown and Scepter from a Bishop B. 'T is certainly a very good Custom for Kings to be put in mind by whose Gift they Reign but it cannot from that Custom be inferr'd that they receive the Kingdom by mediation of the Pope or by any other Clergy for the Popes themselves receiv'd the Papacy from the Emperor The first that ever was elected Bishop of Rome after Emperors were Christians and without the Emperors consent excused himself by Letters to the Emperor with this That the People and Clergy of Rome forced him to take it upon him and prayed the Emperor to confirm it which the Emperor did but with reprehension of their proceedings and prohibition of the like for the time to come The Emperor was Lotharius and the Pope Calixtus the first A. You see by this the Emperor never acknowledged this Gift of God was the Gift of the Pope but maintained the Popedom was the Gift of the Emperor but in process of time by the negligence of the Emperors for the greatness of Kings makes them that they cannot easily descend into the obscure and narrow Mines of an ambitious Clergy they found means to make the People believe there was a Power in the Pope and Clergy which they ought to submit unto rather than to the Commands of their own Kings whensoever it should come into controversie And to that end devised and decreed many new Articles of Faith to the diminution of the Authority of Kings and to the disjunction of them and their Subjects and to a closer adherence of their Subjects to the Church of Rome Articles either not at all found in or not well founded upon the Scriptures As first that it should not be lawful for a Priest to marry B. What influence could that have upon the Power of Kings A. Do you not see that by this the King must of necessity either want the Priesthood and therewith a great part of the Reverence due to him from the most religious part of his Subjects or
Learning there was none erected till that time thoogh it be not unlikely there might be then some that taught Philosophy Logick and other Arts in divers Monasteries the Monks having little else to do but to study After some Colledges were built to that purpose it was not long time before many more were added to them by the devotion of Princes and Bishops and other wealthy Men and the Discipline therein was confirmed by the Popes that then were and abundance of Scholars sent thither by their Friends to study as to a place from whence the way was open and easie to Preferment both in Church and Common-wealth The profit the Church of Rome expected from them and in effect receiv'd was the maintenance of the Popes Doctrine and of his Authority over Kings and their Subjects by School-Divines who striving to make good many Points of Faith incomprehensible and calling in the Philosophy of Aristotle to their assistance wrote great Books of School-Divinity which no man else nor they themselves were able to understand as any man may perceive that shall consider the Writings of Peter Lombard or Scotus or of him that wrote Commentaries upon him or of Suarez or any other School-Divine of later times which kind of Learning nevertheless hath been much admir'd by two sorts of Men otherwise prudent enough the one of which sorts were of those that were already devoted and really affectionate to the Roman Church for they believed the Doctrine before but admir'd the Arguments because they understood them not and yet found the Conclusions to their mind The other sort were negligent Men that had rather admire with others than take the pains to examine So that all sorts of People were fully resolv'd that both the Doctrine was true and the Pope's Authority no more than what was due to him B. I see that a Christian King or State how well soever provided he be of Money and Arms where the Church of Rome hath such Authority will have but a hard match of it for want of Men for their Subjects will hardly be drawn into the Field and fight with courage against their Consciences A. It is true that great Rebellions have been raised by Church-men in the Popes quarrel against Kings as in England against King John and in France against King Henry the 4 th wherein the Kings had a more considerable part on their sides than the Pope had on his and shall always have so if they have Money for there are but few whose Consciences are so tender as to refuse Money when they want it But the great mischief done to Kings upon pretence of Religion is when the Pope gives power to one King to invade another B. I wonder how King Henry the 8 th could then so utterly extinguish the Authority of the Pope in England and that without any Rebellion at home or any Invasion from abroad A. First the Priests Monks and Friars being in the heighth of their power were now for the most part grown insolent and licentious and thereby the force of their Arguments was now taken away by the scandal of their Lives which the Gentry and Men of good Education easily perceived and the Parliament consisting of such persons were therefore willing to take away their Power and generally the Common People which from a long Custom had been in love with Parliaments were not displeased therewith Secondly the Doctrine of Luther beginning a little before was now by a great many men of the greatest Judgments so well received as that there was no hope to restore the Pope to his Power by Rebellion Thirdly the Revenue of Abbies and all other Religious Houses falling hereby into the Kings Hands and by him being disposed of to the most Eminent Gentlemen in every County could not but make them do their best to confirm themselves in the possession of them Fourthly King Henry was of a Nature quick and severe in the punishing of such as should be the first to oppose his Designs Lastly as to Invasion from abroad in case the Pope had given the Kingdom to another Prince it had been in vain for England is another manner of Kingdom than Navarre Besides the French and Spanish Forces were employed at that time one against another and though they had been at leisure they would have found perhaps no better success than the Spaniards found afterwards in 1588. Nevertheless notwithstanding the Insolence Avarice and Hypocrisie of the then Clergy and notwithstanding the Doctrine of Luther if the Pope had not provoked the King by endeavouring to cross his Marriage with his second Wife his Authority might have remained in England till there had risen some other quarrel B. Did not the Bishops that then were and had taken an Oath wherein was amongst other things that they should defend and maintain the Regal Rights of St. Peter the words are Regalia Sancti Petri which nevertheless some have said are Regulas Sancti Petri that is to say St. Peter's Rules or Doctrine and that the Clergy afterward did read it being perhaps written in Short-hand by a mistake to the Pope's advantage Regalia Did not I say the Bishops oppose that Act of Parliament against the Pope and against the taking of the Oath of Supremacy A. No I do not find the Bishops did many of them oppose the King for having no power without him it had been great imprudence to provoke his anger There was besides a Controversie in those times between the Pope and the Bishops most of which did maintain that they exercised their Jurisdiction Episcopal in the Right of God as immediately as the Pope himself did exercise the same over the whole Church And because they saw that by this Act of the King in Parliament they were to hold their Power no more of the Pope and never thought of holding it of the King they were perhaps better content to let that Act of Parliament pass In the Reign of King Edward the 6 th the Doctrine of Luther had taken so great root in England that they threw out also a great many of the Popes new Articles of Faith which Queen Mary succeeding him restored again together with all that had been abolished by Henry the 8 th saving that which could not be restored the Religious Houses and the Bishops and Clergy of King Edward were partly burnt for Hereticks partly fled and partly recanted and they that fled betook themselves to those places beyond Sea where the Reformed Religion was either protected or not persecuted who after the decease of Queen Mary returned again to favour and preferment under Queen Elizabeth that restored the Religion of her Brother King Edward And so it hath continued till this day excepting the Interruption made in this late Rebellion of the Presbyterians and other Democratical Men. But though the Romish Religion were now cast out by the Law yet there were abundance of people and many of them of the Nobility that still retained the Religion of
their Ancestors who as they were not much molested in Points of Conscience so they were not by their own Inclination very troublesome to the Civil Government but by the secret practice of the Jesuites and other Emissaries of the Roman Church they were made less quiet than they ought to have been and some of them to venture upon the most horrid Act that ever had been heard of before I mean the Gunpowder-Treason And upon that account the Papists of England have been looked upon as Men that would not be sorry for any disorders here that might possibly make way to the restoring of the Popes Authority and therefore I named them for one of the distempers of the State of England in the time of our late King Charles B. I see that Monsieur du Plessis and Dr. Morton Bishop of Durham writing of the progress of the Popes Power and intituling their Books one of them The Mystery of Iniquity the other The Grand Imposture were both in the right for I believe there was never such another cheat in the World and I wonder that the Kings and States of Christendome never perceiv'd it A. It is manifest they did perceive it How else durst they make War against the Pope and some of them take him out of Rome it self and carry him away Prisoner But if they would have freed themselves from his Tyranny they should have agreed together and made themselves every one as Henry the 8 th did Head of the Church within their own respective Dominions but not agreeing they let his power continue every one hoping to make use of it when there should be cause against his Neighbour B. Now as to that other distemper by Presbyterians how came their power to be so great being of themselves for the most part but so many poor Scholars A. This Controversie between the Papist and the Reformed Churches could not choose but make every man to the best of his power examine by the Scriptures which of them was in the right and to that end they were translated into Vulgar Tongues whereas before the Translation of them was not allowed nor any Man to read them but such as had express licence so to do for the Pope did concerning the Scriptures the same that Moses did concerning Mount Sinai Moses suffered no man to go up to it to hear God speak or gaze upon him but such as he himself took with him and the Pope suffered none to speak with God in the Scriptures that had not some part of the Pope's Spirit in him for which he might be trusted B. Certainly Moses did therein very wisely and according to God's own Commandment A. No doubt of it and the event it self hath made it since appear so for after the Bible was translated into English every Man nay every Boy and Wench that could read English thought they spoke with God Almighty and understood what he said when by a certain number of Chapters a day they had read the Scriptures once or twice over the Reverence and Obedience due to the Reformed Church here and to the Bishops and Pastors therein was cast off and every Man became a Judge of Religion and an Interpreter of the Scriptures to himself B. Did not the Church of England intend it should be so What other end could they have in recommending the Bible to me if they did not mean I should make it the Rule of my Actions Else they might have kept it though open to themselves to me seal'd up in Hebrew Greek and Latin and fed me out of it in such measure as had been requisite for the salvation of my Soul and the Churches Peace A. I confess this Licence of Interpreting the Scripture was the cause of so many several Sects as have lain hid till the beginning of the late Kings Reign and did then appear to the disturbance of the Common-wealth But to return to the Story those persons that fled for Religion in the time of Queen Mary resided for the most part in places where the Reformed Religion was profess'd and governed by an Assembly of Ministers who also were not a little made use of for want of better States-men in Points of Civil Government which pleased so much the English and Scotch Protestants that lived amongst them that at their return they wished there were the same Honour and Reverence given to the Ministry in their own Countries in Scotland King James being then young soon with the help of some of the powerful Nobility they brought it to pass Also they that returned into England in the beginning of the Reign of Queen Elizabeth endeavoured the same here but could never effect it till this last Rebellion nor without the help of the Scots and it was no sooner effected but they were defeated again by the other Sects which by the preaching of the Presbyterians and private Interpretation of Scripture were grown numerous B. I know indeed that in the beginning of the late War the Power of the Presbyterians was so very great that not only the Citizens of London were almost all of them at their devotion but also the greatest part of all other Cities and Market-Towns of England But you have not yet told me by what Art and what Degrees they became so strong A. It was not their own Art alone that did it but they had the concurrence of a great many Gentlemen that did no less desire a Popular Government in the Civil State than these Ministers did in the Church and as these did in the Pulpit draw the People to their Opinions and to a dislike of the Church-Government Canons and Common-Prayer-Book so did the other make them in love with Democracy by their Harangues in the Parliament and by their Discourses and Communication with People in the Country continually extolling of Liberty and inveighing against Tyranny leaving the People to collect of themselves that this Tyranny was the present Government of the State and as the Presbyterians brought with them into their Churches their Divinity from the Universities so did many of the Gentlemen bring their Politicks from thence into the Parliament but neither of them did this very boldly in the time of Queen Elizabeth And though it be not likely that all of them did it out of malice but many of them out of error yet certainly the Chief Leaders were ambitious Ministers and ambitious Gentlemen the Ministers envying the Authority of Bishops whom they thought less learned and the Gentlemen envying the Privy-Council whom they thought less wise than themselves For 't is a hard matter for Men who do all think highly of their own Wits when they have also acquired the Learning of the University to be perswaded that they want any ability requisite for the Government of a Common-wealth especially having read the glorious Histories and the sententious Politiques of the ancient popular Governments of the Greeks and Romans amongst whom Kings were hated and branded with the name of Tyrants and Popular
when they sent unto him 19 Propositions whereof above a dozen were Demands of several Powers essential parts of the Power Sovereign But before that time they had demanded some of them in a Petition which they called a Petition of Right which nevertheless the King had granted them in a former Parliament though he deprived himself thereby not only of the Power to levy Money without their consent but also of his ordinary Revenue by Custom of Tonnage and Poundage and of the Liberty to put into Custody such Men as he thought likely to disturb the Peace and raise Sedition in the Kingdom As for the Men that did this 't is enough to say they were the Members of the last Parliament and of some other Parliaments in the beginning of King Charles and the end of King James his Reign to name them all is not necessary farther than the Story shall require Most of them were Members of the House of Commons some few also of the Lords but all such as had a great opinion of their sufficiency in Politicks which they thought was not sufficiently taken notice of by the King B. How could the Parliament when the King had a great Navy and a great number of Train'd Soldiers and all the Magazines of Ammunition in his power be able to begin the War A. The King had these things indeed in his right but that signifies little when they that had the Custody of the Navy and Magazines and with them all the Train'd Soldiers and in a manner all his Subjects were by the preaching of Presbyterian Ministers and the seditious whisperings of false and ignorant Politicians made his Enemies And when the King could have no Money but what the Parliament should give him which you may be sure should not be enough to maintain his Regal Power which they intended to take from him And yet I think they would never have adventured into the Field but for that unlucky business of imposing upon the Scots who were all Presbyterians our Book of Common-Prayer for I believe the English would never have taken well that the Parliament should make War upon the King upon any provocation unless it were in their own defence in case the King should first make War upon them and therefore it behooved them to provoke the King that he might do something that might look like Hostility It happened in the Year 1637. that the King by the Advice as it is thought of the Arch-Bishop of Canterbury sent down a Book of Common-Prayer into Scotland not differing in substance from ours nor much in words besides the putting of the word Presbyter for that of Minister commanding it to be used for conformity to this Kingdom by the Ministers there for an ordinary Form of Divine Service This being read in the Church at Edenburgh caused such a Tumult there that he that read it had much ado to escape with his life and gave occasion to the greatest part of the Nobility and others to enter by their own Authority into a Covenant amongst themselves which impudently they called a Covenant with God to put down Episcopacy without consulting with the King which they presently did animated thereto by their own confidence or by assurance from some of the Democratical English-men that in former Parliaments had been the greatest opposers of the King's Interest that the King would not be able to raise an Army to chastise them without calling a Parliament which would be sure to favour them For the thing which those Domocraticals chiefly then aimed at was to force the King to call a Parliament which he had not done of ten years before as having found no help but hinderance to his Designs in the Parliaments he had formerly called Howsoever contrary to their expectation by the help of his better affected Subjects of the Nobility and Gentry he made a shift to raise a sufficient Army to have reduced the Scots to their former obedience if it had proceeded to battle and with this Army he marched himself into Scotland where the Scotch Army was also brought into the Field against him as if they meant to fight but then the Scoth sent to the King for leave to treat by Commissioners on both sides and the King willing to avoid the destruction of his own Subjects condescended to it The Issue was peace and the King thereupon went to Edenburgh and passed an Act of Parliament there to their satisfaction B. Did he not then confirm Episcopacy A. No but yielded to the abolishing of it but by this means the English were cross'd in their hope of a Parliament but the said Democraticals formerly opposers of the King's Interest ceased not to endeavour still to put the two Nations into a War to the end the King might buy the Parliaments help at no less a price than Sovereignty it self B. But what was the cause that the Gentry and Nobility of Scotland were so averse from the Episcopacy for I can hardly believe that their Consciences were extraordinarily tender nor that they were so very great Divines as to know what was the true Church-discipline established by our Saviour and his Apostles nor yet so much in love with their Ministers as to be over-rul'd by them in the Government either Ecclesiastical or Civil for in their lives they were just as other Men are pursuers of their own Interests and Preferments wherein they were not more opposed by the Bishops than by their Presbyterian Ministers A. Truly I do not know I cannot enter into other Mens thoughts farther than I am led by the consideration of Humane Nature in general But upon this consideration I see first that Men of ancient Wealth and Nobility are not apt to brook that poor Scholars should as they must when they are made Bishops be their fellows Secondly That from the Emulation of Glory between the Nations they might be willing to see this Nation afflicted by Civil War and might hope by aiding the Rebels here to acquire some power over the English at least so far as to establish here the Presbyterian Discipline which was also one of the Points they afterwards openly demanded Lastly They might hope for in the War some great Sum of Money as a reward of their assistance besides great booty which they afterwards obtained But whatsoever was the cause of their hatred to Bishops the pulling of them down was not all they aimed at If it had now that Episcopacy was abolished by Act of Parliament they would have rested satisfied which they did not for after the King was returned to London the English Presbyterians and Democraticals by whose favour they had put down Bishops in Scotland thought it reason to have the assistance of the Scotch for the pulling down of Bishops in England And in order thereunto they might perhaps deal with the Scots secretly to rest unsatisfied with that Pacification which they were before contented with Howsoever it was not long after the King was returned to London
they thought worthy even to be Senators of Rome and to give every one of the Common People the Priviledges of the City of Rome by which they were protected from the Contumelies of other Nations where they resided Why were not the Scotch and English in like manner united into one People A. King James at his first coming to the Crown of England did endeavour it but could not prevail But for all that I believe the Scotch have now as many Priviledges in England as any Nation had in Rome of those which were so as you say made Romans for they are all naturaliz'd and have right to buy Land in England to themselves and their Heirs B. It 's true of them that were born in Scotland after the time that King James was in possession of the Kingdom of England A. There be very few now that were born before But why have they a better Right that were born after than they that were born before B. Because they were born Subjects to the King of England and the rest not A. Were not the rest born Subjects to King James And was not he King of England B. Yes but not then A. I understand not the subtilty of that distinction But upon what Law is that distinction grounded Is there any Statute to that purpose B. I cannot tell I think not but it is grounded upon Equity A. I see little Equity in this that those Nations that are bound to equal obedience to the same King should not have equal priviledges And now seeing there be so very few born before King James's coming in what greater priviledge had those ingrafted Romans by their Naturalization in the State of Rome or in the State of England the English themselves more than the Scotch B. Those Romans when any of them were in Rome had their Voice in the making of Laws A. And the Scotch have their Parliaments wherein their assent is requir'd to the Laws there made which is as good Have not many of the Provinces of France their several Parliaments and several Constitutions and yet they are all equally natural Subjects to the King of France and therefore for my part I think they were mistaken both English and Scotch in calling one another Forreigners Howsoever that be the King had a very sufficient Army wherewith he marched towards Scotland and by that time he was come to York the Scotch Army was drawn up to the Frontiers and ready to march into England which also they presently did giving out all the way that their March should be without damage to the Countrey and that their Errand was only to deliver a Petition to the King for the redress of many pretended Injuries they had receiv'd from such of the Court whose Counsel the King most followed so they passed through Northumberland quietly till they came to a Ford in the River of Tine a little above New-Castle where they found some little opposition from a Party of the King's Army sent thither to stop them whom the Scotch easily master'd and as soon as they were over seiz'd upon New-Castle and coming farther on upon the City of Duresme and sent to the King to desire a Treaty which was granted and the Commissioners on both sides met at Rippon The Conclusion was that all should be referr'd to the Parliament which the King should call to meet at Westminster on the third of November following being in the same Year 1640. and thereupon the King returned to London B. So the Armies were disbanded A. No the Scotch Army was to be defrayed by the Counties of Northumberland and Duresme and the King was to pay his own till the disbanding of both should be agreed upon in Parliament B. So in effect both the Armies were maintain'd at the King's charge and the whole Controversie to be decided by a Parliament almost wholly Presbyterian and as partial to the Scotch as themselves could have wished A. And yet for all this they durst not presently make War upon the King there was so much yet left of reverence to him in the Hearts of the People as to have made them odious if they had declared what they intended they must have some colour or other to make it believ'd that the King made War first upon the Parliament and besides they had not yet sufficiently disgraced him in Sermons and Pamphlets nor removed from about him those they thought could best counsel him Therefore they resolv'd to proceed with him like skilful Hunters first to single him out by Men disposed in all parts to drive him into the open Field and then in case he should but seem to turn head to call that a making of War against the Parliament And first they call'd in question such as had either preached or written in defence of any of those Rights which belonging to the Crown they meant to usurp and take from the King to themselves Whereupon some few Preachers and Writers were imprisoned or forced to fly The King not protecting these they proceeded to call in question some of the King 's own Actions in his Ministers whereof they imprisoned some and some went beyond Sea And whereas certain persons having endeavoured by Books and Sermons to raise Sedition and committed other crimes of high nature had therefore been censured by the King's Council in the Star-Chamber and imprisoned the Parliament by their own Authority to try it seems how the King and the People would take it for their persons were inconsiderable ordered their setting at liberty which was accordingly done with great applause of the People that flocked about them in London in manner of a Triumph This being done without resistance the King 's Right to Ship-Money B. Ship-Money what 's that A. The Kings of England for the defence of the Sea had power to tax all the Counties of England whether they were Maritime or not for the building and furnishing of Ships which Tax the King had then lately found cause to impose and the Parliament exclaim'd against it as an oppression and one of their Members that had been taxed but 20 s. mark the oppression a Parliament-man of 500 l. a year Land taxed at 20 s. they were forced to bring it to a Tryal at Law he refusing payment and he was cast Again when all the Judges of Westminster were demanded their Opinions concerning the Legality of it of Twelve that there are it was judged legal by Ten for which though they were not punished yet they were afrighted by the Parliament B. What did the Parliament mean when they did exclaim against it as illegal Did they mean it was against Statute-Law or against the Judgments of Lawyers given heretofore which are commonly called Reports or did they mean it was against Equity which I take to be the same with the Law of Nature A. It is a hard matter or rather impossible to know what other Men mean especially if they be crafty but sure I am Equity was not their ground for
but no knowledge of what they are nor any method of obtaining Vertue nor of avoiding Vice The end of Moral Philosophy is to teach men of all sorts their duty both to the Publick and to one another They estimate Vertue partly by a Mediocrity of the Passions of men and partly by that that they are praised whereas it is not the Much or Little Praise that makes an Action vertuous but the Cause nor much or little blame that makes an Action vitious but its being unconformable to the Laws in such men as are subject to the Law or its being unconformable to Equity or Charity in all men whatsoever B. It seems you make a difference between the Ethicks of Subjects and the Ethicks of Sovereigns A. So I do The Vertue of a Subject is comprehended wholly in obedience to the Laws of the Common-wealth To obey the Laws is Justice and Equity which is the Law of Nature and consequently is Civil Law in all Nations of the World and nothing is Injustice or Iniquity otherwise than it is against the Law Likewise to obey the Laws is the Prudence of a Subject for without such obedience the Common-wealth which is every Subject's safety and protection cannot subsist And though it be prudence also in private men justly and moderately to enrich themselves yet craftily to with-hold from the Publick or defraud it of such part of their wealth as is by Law requir'd is no sign of prudence but of want of knowledge of what is necessary for their own defence The Vertues of Sovereigns are such as tend to the maintenance of peace at home and to the resistance of Forreign Enemies Fortitude is a Royal Vertue and though it be necessary in such private men as shall be Soldiers yet for other men the less they dare the better it is both for the Common-wealth and for themselves Frugality though perhaps you will think it strange is also a Royal Vertue for it increases the Publick Stock which cannot be too great for the Publick Use nor any man too sparing of what he has in trust for the good of others Liberality also is a Royal Vertue for the Common-wealth cannot be well served without extraordinary diligence and service of Ministers and great fidelity to their Sovereigns who ought therefore to be encouraged and especially those that do him service in the Wars In sum all Actions and Habits are to be esteemed good or evil by their causes and usefulness in reference to the Common-wealth and not by their Mediocrity nor by their being commended for several men praise several Customs and that which is Vertue with one is blamed by others and contrarily what one calls Vice another calls Vertue as their present affections lead them B. Methinks you should have placed among the Vertues that which in my opinion is the greatest of all Vertues Religion A. So I have though it seems you did not observe it But whither do we digress from the way we were in B. I think you have not digressed at all for I suppose your purpose was to acquaint me with the History not so much of those Actions that pass'd in the time of the late Troubles as of their Causes and of the Councels and Artifice by which they were brought to pass There be divers men that have written the History out of whom I might have learned what they did and somewhat also of the Contrivance but I find little in them of what I would ask Therefore since you were pleas'd to enter into this discourse at my request be pleased also to inform me after my own method and for the danger of confusion that may arise from that I will take care to bring you back to the place from whence I drew you for I well remember where it was A. Well then To your question concerning Religion in as much as I told you that all Vertue is comprehended in Obedience to the Laws of the Common-wealth whereof Religion is one I have placed Religion amongst the Vertues B. Is Religion then the Law of a Common-wealth A. There is no Nation in the World whose Religion is not established and receives not its Authority from the Laws of that Nation It is true that the Law of God receives no evidence from the Laws of Men but because Men can never by their own wisdom come to the knowledge of what God hath spoken and commanded to be observ'd nor be obliged to obey the Laws whose Author they know not they are to acquiesce in some Humane Authority or other So that the Question will be whether a Man ought in matter of Religion that is to say when there is question of his duty to God and the King to rely upon the preaching of their Fellow-Subjects or of a Stranger or upon the Voice of the Law B. There is no great difficulty in that Point for there is none that preach here or any where else at least ought to preach but such as have Authority so to do from him or them that have the Sovereign Power so that if the King gives us leave you or I may as lawfully preach as them that do and I believe we should perform that Office a great deal better than they that preached us into the Rebellion A. The Church Morals are in many Points very different from these that I have here set down for the Doctrine of Vertue and Vice and yet without any conformity with that of Aristotle For in the Church of Rome the principal Vertues are to obey their Doctrine though it be Treason and that is to be Religious To be beneficial to the Clergy that is their Piety and Liberality and to believe upon their word that which a man knows in his Conscience to be false which is the Faith they require I could name a great many more such Points of their Morals but that I know you know them already being so well versed in the Cases of Conscience written by their School-men who measure the goodness and wickedness of all Actions by their congruity with the Doctrine of the Roman Clergy B. But what is the Moral Philosophy of the Protestant Clergy in England A. So much as they shew of it in their Life and Conversation is for the most part very good and of very good example much better than their Writings B. It happens many times that men live honestly for fear who if they had power would live according to their own Opinions that is if their Opinions be not right unrighteously A. Do the Clergy in England pretend as the Pope does or as the Presbyterians do to have a Right from God immediately to govern the King and his Subjects in all Points of Religion and Manners if they do you cannot doubt but that if they had number and strength which they are never like to have they would attempt to obtain that Power as the others have done B. I would be glad to see a Systeme of the present Morals written by
that will voluntarily present himself to the Officers of Justice Do not we see that all men when they are led to Execution are both bound and guarded and would break loose if they could and get away Such is their Passive Obedience Christ saith The Scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses Chair all therefore whatsoever they bid you observe that observe and do Mat 23.3 which is a doing an Active Obedience and yet the Scribes and Pharisees appear not by the Scripture to have been such godly men as never to command any thing against the revealed Will of God B. Must Tyrants also be obeyed in every thing actively Or is there nothing wherein a lawful King's Command may be disobeyed What if he should command me with my own hands to execute my Father in case he should be condemn'd to die by the Law A. This is a Case that need not be put We never have read nor heard of any King or Tyrant so inhumane as to command it If any did we are to consider whether that Command were one of his Laws for by disobeying Kings we mean the disobeying of his Laws those his Laws that were made before they were applyed to any particular person for the King though as a Father of Children and a Master of Domestick Servants yet he commands the People in general never but by a precedent Law and as a Politick not a Natural Person And if such a Command as you speak of were contriv'd into a general Law which never was nor never will be you were bound to obey it unless you depart the Kingdom after the Publication of the Law and before the Condemnation of your Father B. Your Author says farther in refusing Active Obedience to the King that commanded any thing contrary to God's Law we must be very well assur'd that the thing is so contrary I would fain know how it is possible to be assur'd A. I think you do not believe that any of those Refusers do immediately from God's own mouth receive any command contrary to the Command of the King who is God's Lieutenant nor any other way than you and I do that is to say than by the Scriptures And because men do for the most part rather draw the Scripture to their own sense than follow the true sense of the Scripture there is no other way to know certainly and in all Cases what God commands or forbids us to do but by the Sentence of him or them that are constituted by the King to determine the sense of the Scripture upon hearing of the particular Case of Conscience which is in question And they that are so constituted are easily known in all Christian Common-wealths whether they be Bishops or Ministers or Assemblies that govern the Church under him or them that have the Sovereign Power B. Some doubts may be rais'd from this that you now say for if Men be to learn their Duty from the Sentence which other Men shall give concerning the meaning of the Scriptures and not from their own Interpretation I understand not to what end they were translated into English and every man not only permitted but also exhorted to read them For what could that produce but diversity of opinion and consequently as Man's Nature is Disputation breach of Charity Disobedience and at last Rebellion Again since the Scripture was allowed to be read in English why were not the Translations such as might make all that 's read understood even by mean Capacities Did not the Jews such as could read understand their Law in the Jewish Language as well as we do our Statute Laws in English And as for such places of the Scripture as had nothing of the Nature of a Law it was nothing to the Duty of the Jews whether they were understood or not seeing nothing is punishable but the Transgression of some Law The same Question I may ask concerning the New Testament for I believe that those Men to whom the Original Language was natural did understand sufficiently what Commands and Counsels were given them by our Saviour and his Apostles and his immediate Disciples Again how will you answer that Question which was put by St. Peter and St. John Acts 4.19 when by Annas the High Priest and others of the Councel of Jerusalem they were forbidden to teach any more in the Name of Jesus Whether is it right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God A. The Case is not the same Peter and John had seen and daily conversed with our Saviour and by the Miracles he wrought did know he was God and consequently knew certainly that their disobedience to the High-Priests present Command was just Can any Minister now say that he hath immediately from God's own Mouth receiv'd a Command to disobey the King or know otherwise than by the Scripture that any Command of the King that hath the Form and Nature of a Law is against the Law of God which in divers places directly and evidently commandeth to obey him in all things The Text you cite does not tell us that a Minister's Authority rather than a Christian King's shall decide the Questions that arise from the different Interpretations of the Scripture And therefore where the King is Head of the Church and by consequence to omit that the Scripture it self was not received but by the Authority of Kings and States Chief Judge of the rectitude of all Interpretations of the Scripture To obey the Kings Laws and publick Edicts is not to disobey but to obey God A Minister ought not to think that his skill in the Latin Greek or Hebrew Tongues if he have any gives him a Priviledge to impose upon all his Fellow-Subjects his own sense or what he pretends to be his sense of every obscure place of Scripture nor ought he as oft as he hath found out some fine Interpretation not before thought on by others to think he had it by Inspiration for he cannot be assur'd of that no nor that his Interpretation as fine as he thinks it is not false and then all his stubbornness and contumacy toward the King and his Laws is nothing but Pride of Heart and Ambition or else Imposture And whereas you think it needless or perhaps hurtful to have the Scriptures in English I am of another mind There are so many places of Scripture easie to be understood that teach both true Faith and good Morality and that as fully as is necessary to salvation of which no Seducer is able to dispossess the mind of any ordinary Readers that the reading of them is so profitable as not to be forbidden without great damage to them and the Common-wealth B. All that is requir'd both in Faith and Manners for Man's Salvation is I confess set down in Scripture as plainly as can be Children obey your Parents in all things Servants obey your Masters Let all Men be subject to the Higher Powers whether it be the King or those that
of Divinity for Religion has been for a long time and is now by most People taken for the same thing with Divinity to the great advantage of the Clergy B. And especially now amongst the Presbyterians for I see few that are by them esteemed very good Christians besides such as can repeat their Sermons and wrangle for them about the Interpretation of the Scripture and fight for them also with their Bodies or Purses when they shall be requir'd To believe in Christ is nothing with them unless you believe as they bid you Charity is nothing with them unless it be Charity and Liberality to them and partaking with them in faction How we can have peace while this is our Religion I cannot tell Haeret lateri lethalis arundo The seditious Doctrine of the Presbyterians has been stuck so hard in the Peoples Heads and Memories I cannot say into their Hearts for they understand nothing in it but that they may lawfully rebel that I fear the Common-wealth will never be cured A. The two great Vertues that were severally in Henry the 7 th and Henry the 8 th when they shall be joyntly in one King will easily cure it That of Henry the 7 th was without much noise of the People to fill his Coffers that of Henry the 8 th was an early severity but this without the former cannot be exercised B. This that you say looks methinks like an Advice to the King to let them alone till he have gotten ready Money enough to levy and maintain a sufficient Army and then to fall upon them and destroy them A. God forbid that so horrible unchristian and inhumane a design should ever enter into the King's Heart I would have him have Money enough readily to raise an Army able to suppress any Rebellion and to take from his Enemies all hope of success that they may not dare to trouble him in the Reformation of the Universities but to put none to death without the actual committing such crimes as are already made Capital by the Laws The Core of Rebellion as you have seen by this and read of other Rebellions are the Universities which nevertheless are not to be cast away but to be better disciplin'd that is to say that the Politicks there taught be made to be as true Politicks should be such as are fit to make men know that it is their Duty to obey all Laws whatsoever that shall by the Authority of the King be enacted till by the same Authority they shall be repealed such as are fit to make men understand that the Civil Laws are God's Laws as they that make them are by God appointed to make them and to make men know that the People and the Church are one thing and have but one Head the King and that no man has Title to govern under him that has it not from him That the King owes his Crown to God only and to no Man Ecclesiastick or other and that the Religion they teach there be a quiet waiting for the coming again of our Blessed Saviour and in the mean time a resolution to obey the King's Laws which also are God's Laws To injure no man to be in charity with all men to cherish the Poor and Sick and to live soberly and free from scandal Without mingling our Religion with Points of Natural Philosophy as freedom of Will Incorporeal Substance everlasting Nows Ubiquities Hypostases which the People understand not nor will ever care for When the Universities shall be thus disciplin'd there will come out of them from time to time well principled Preachers and they that are now ill principled from time to time fall away B. I think it a very good course and perhaps the only one that can make our peace amongst our selves constant For if men know not their Duty what is there that can force them to obey the Laws An Army you 'l say but what shall force the Army Were not the Train'd-Bands an Army Were they not the Janisaries that not very long ago slew Osman in his own Palace at Constantinople I am therefore of your opinion both that men may be brought to a love of obedience by Preachers and Gentlemen that imbibe good Principles in their Youth at the Universities and also that we never shall have a lasting Peace till the Universities themselves be in such manner as you have said reformed and the Ministers know they have no Authority but what the Supreme Civil Power gives them and the Nobility and Gentry know that the Liberty of a State is not an exemption from the Laws of their own Country whether made by an Assembly or by a Monarch but an exemption from the constraint and insolence of their Neighbours And now I am satisfied in this Point I will bring you back to the place from whence my curiosity drew you to this long digression We were upon the Point of Ship-Money one of those grievances which the Parliament exclaimed against as Tyrannical and Arbitrary Government thereby to single out as you call'd it the King from his Subjects and to make a Party against him when they should need it And now you may proceed if it please you to such other Artifices as they used to the same purpose A. I think it were better to give over here our Discourse of this business and refer it to some other day that you shall think fit B. Content That day I believe is not far off Behemoth PART II. A. YOU are welcome yet if you had stayed somewhat longer my memory would have been so much the better provided for you B. Nay I pray you give me now what you have about you for the rest I am content you take what time you please A. After the Parliament had made the People believe that the exacting of Ship-Money was unlawful and the People thereby inclined to think it Tyrannical in the next place to increase their disaffection to his Majesty they accused him of a purpose to introduce and authorize the Roman Religion in this Kingdom than which nothing was more hateful to the People not because it was erroneous which they had neither Learning nor Judgment enough to examine but because they had been used to hear it inveighed against in the Sermons and Discourses of the Preachers whom they trusted to and this was indeed the most effectual calumny to alienate the People's affections from him that could possibly be invented The colour they had for this slander was first that there was one Rosetti Resident at and a little before that time from the Pope with the Queen and one Mr. George Con Secretary to the Cardinal Francisco Barbarini Nephew to Pope Vrban the 8 th sent over under favour and protection of the Queen as was conceiv'd to draw as many Persons of Quality about the Court as he should be able to reconcile themselves to the Church of Rome with what success I cannot tell but it is likely he gained some especially
as being a thing contrary to nature or to pay them any reverence or to care what they say except some few that may be delighted with their jingling I wish with all my heart there were enough of such discreet and ancient men as might suffice for all the Parishes of England and that they would undertake it But this is but a wish I leave it to the Wisdom of the State to do what it pleaseth B. What did they next A. Whereas the King had sent Prisoners into places remote from London three Persons that had been condemn'd for publishing seditious Doctrine some in writing some in publick Sermons the Parliament whether with his Majesties consent or no I have forgotten caused them to be released and to return to London meaning I think to try how the People would be pleas'd therewith and by consequence how their endeavours to draw the Peoples affections from the King had already prospered When these three came through London it was a kind of Triumph the People flocking together to behold them and receiving them with such Acclamations and almost Adoration as if they had been let down from Heaven In so much as the Parliament was now sufficiently assur'd of a great and tumultuous Party whensoever they should have occasion to use it On confidence whereof they proceeded to their next Plot which was to deprive the King of such Ministers as by their Wisdom Courage and Authority they thought most able to prevent or oppose their farther Designs against the King And first the House of Commons resolv'd to impeach the Earl of Strafford Lord Lieutenant of Ireland of High Treason B. What was that Earl of Strafford before he had that place And how had he offended the Parliament or given them cause to think he would be their Enemy for I have heard that in former Parliaments he had been as Parliamentary as any other A. His name was Sir Thomas Wentworth a Gentleman both for Birth and Estate very considerable in his own Countrey which was York-shire but more considerable for his Judgment in the publick Affairs not only of that Countrey but generally of the Kingdom and was therefore often chosen for the Parliament either as Burgess for some Burrough or Knight of the Shire For his Principles of Politicks they were the same that were generally proceeded upon by all men else that were thought fit to be chosen for the Parliament which are commonly these To take for the Rule of Justice and Government the Judgments and Acts of former Parliaments which are commonly called Presidents To endeavour to keep the People from being subject to Extra-parliamentary Taxes of Money and from being with Parliamentary Taxes too much oppressed To preserve to the People their Liberty of body from the Arbitrary Power of the King out of Parliament To seek redress of Grievances B. What Grievances A. The Grievances commonly were such as these The King 's too much Liberality to some Favorite The too much power of some Minister or Officer of the Common-wealth The misdemeanour of Judges Civil or Spiritual but especially all unparliamentary raising of Money upon the Subjects And commonly of late till such Grievances be redressed they refuse or at least make great difficulty to furnish the King with Money necessary for the most urgent occasions of the Common-wealth B. How then can a King discharge his Duty as he ought to do or the Subject know which of his Masters he is to obey for here are manifestly two Powers which when they chance to differ cannot both be obeyed A. 'T is true but they have not often differed so much to the danger of the Common-wealth as they have done in this Parliament 1640. In all the Parliaments of the late King Charles before the Year 1640. my Lord of Strafford did appear in opposition to the King's demands as much as any man and was for that cause very much esteem'd and cried up by the People as a good Patriot and one that couragiously stood up in defence of their Liberties and for the same cause was so much the more hated when afterwards he endeavoured to maintain the Royal and just Authority of his Majesty B. How came he to change his mind so much as it seems he did A. After the dissolution of the Parliament holden in the Year 1627. and 1628. the King finding no Money to be gotten from Parliaments which he was not to buy with the Blood of such Servants and Ministers as he loved best abstained a long time from calling any more and had abstained longer if the Rebellion of the Scotch had not forced him to it During that Parliament the King made Sir Thomas Wentworth a Baron recommended to him for his great ability which was generally taken notice of by the disservice he had done the King in former Parliaments but which might be useful also for him in the times that came on and not long after he made him of the Council and after that again Lieutenant of Ireland which Place he discharged with great satisfaction and benefit to his Majesty and continued in that Office till by the Envy and Violence of the Lords and Commons of that unlucky Parliament of 1640. he dyed In which Year he was made General of the King's Forces against the Scots that then entred into England and the Year before Earl of Strafford The Pacification being made and the Forces on both sides disbanded and the Parliament at Westminster now sitting it was not long before the House of Commons accused him to the House of Lords for High-Treason B. There was no great probability of his being a Traitor to the King from whose favour he had received his Greatness and from whose Protection he was to expect his safety What was the Treason they laid to his charge A. Many Articles were drawn up against him but the sum of them was contained in these two First That he had traiterously endeavoured to subvert the fundamental Laws and Government of the Realm and in stead thereof to introduce an Arbitrary and Tyrannical Government against Law Secondly That he had laboured to subvert the Rights of Parliaments and the ancient course of Parliamentary Proceedings B. Was this done by him without the knowledge of the King A. No. B. Why then if it were Treason did not the King himself call him in question by his Attorney What had the House of Commons to do without his Command to accuse him to the House of Lords They might have complained to the King if he had not known it before I understand not this Law A. Nor I. B. Had this been by any former Statutes made Treason A. Not that I ever heard of nor do I understand how any thing can be Treason against the King that the King hearing and knowing does not think Treason But it was a piece of that Parliaments Artifice to put the word Traiterously to any Article exhibited against any Man whose Life they meant to take away B. Was
not permitted to go quietly to the performance of that Duty and protesting against all Determinations as of none effect that should pass in the House of Lords during their forced absence which the House of Commons taking hold of sent up to the Peers one of their Members to accuse them of High Treason whereupon ten of them were sent to the Tower after which time there were no more words of their High Treason but there passed a Bill by which they were deprived of their Votes in Parliament and to this Bill they got the Kings Assent and in the beginning of September after they voted that the Bishops should have no more to do in the Government of the Church but to this they had not the King's Assent the War being now begun B. What made the Parliament so averse to Episcopacy and especially the House of Lords whereof the Bishops were Members for I see no reason why they should do it to gratifie a number of poor Parish Priests that were Presbyterians and that were never likely any way to serve the Lords but on the contrary to do their best to pull down their power and subject them to their Synods and Classes A. For the Lords very few of them did perceive the intention of the Presbyterians and besides that they durst not I believe oppose the Lower House B. But why were the Lower House so earnest against them A. Because they meant to make use of their Tenents and with pretended Sanctity to make the King and his Party odious to the People by whose help they were to set up Democracy and depose the King or to let him have the Title only so long as he should act for their purposes but not only the Parliament but in a manner all the People of England were their Enemies upon the account of their behaviour as being they said too imperious This was all that was colourably laid to their charge the main cause of pulling them down was the envy of the Presbyterians that incensed the People against them and against Episcopacy it self B. How would the Presbyterians have the Church to be governed A. By National and Provincial Synods B. Is not this to make the National Assembly an Arch-bishop and the Provincial Assemblies so many Bishops A. Yes but every Minister shall have the delight of sharing the Government and consequently of being able to be revenged on them that do not admire their Learning and help to fill their Purses and win to their Service them that do B. 'T is a hard Case that there should be two Factions to trouble the Common-wealth without any Interest in it of their own other than every particular man may have and that their quarrels should be only about Opinions that is about who has the most Learning as if their Learning ought to be the Rule of governing all the World What is it they are learned in Is it Politicks and Rules of State I know it is called Divinity but I hear almost nothing preach'd but matter of Philosophy For Religion in it self admits no controversie 'T is a Law of the Kingdom and ought not to be disputed I do not think they pretend to speak with God and know his Will by any other way than reading the Scriptures which we also do A. Yes some of them do and give themselves out for Prophets by extraordinary Inspiration but the rest pretend only for their Advancement to Benefices and Charge of Souls a greater skill in the Scriptures than other men have by reason of their breeding in the Universities and knowledge there gotten of the Latin Tongue and some also of the Greek and Hebrew Tongues wherein the Scripture was written besides their knowledge of Natural Philosophy which is there publickly taught B. As for the Latin Greek and Hebrew Tongues it was once to the Detection of Roman fraud and to the ejection of the Romish Power very profitable or rather necessary but now that 's done and we have the Scripture in English and preaching in English I see no great need of Latin Greek and Hebrew I should think my self better qualified by understanding well the Languages of our Neighbours French Dutch and Italian I think it was never seen in the World before the power of Popes was set up that Philosophy was much conducing to Power in a Common-wealth A. But Philosophy together with Divinity have very much conduced to the advancement of the Professors thereof to Places of the greatest Authority next to the Authority of Kings themselves in most of the ancient Kingdoms of the World as is manifestly to be seen in the History of those times B. I pray you cite me some of the Authors and Places A. First what were the Druids of old time in Britany and France What Authority these had you may see in Caesar Strabo and others and especially in Diodorus Siculus the greatest Antiquary perhaps that ever was who speaking of the Druids which he calls Sarovides in France says thus There be also amongst them certain Philosophers and Theologians that are exceedingly honoured whom they also use as Prophets these Men by their skill in Augury and Inspection into the Bowels of Beasts sacrificed foretel what is to come and have the Multitude obedient to them And a little after It is a Custom amongst them that no man may sacrifice without a Philosopher because say they men ought not to present their thanks to the Gods but by them that know the Divine Nature and are as it were of the same Language with them and that all good things ought by such as these to be prayed for B. I can hardly believe that those Druids were very skilful either in Natural Philosophy or Moral A. Nor I for they held and taught the Transmigration of Souls from one Body to another as did Pythagoras which Opinion whether they took from him or he from them I cannot tell What were the Magi in Persia but Philosophers and Astrologers You know how they came to find our Saviour by the conduct of a Star either from Persia it self or from some Countrey more Eastward than Judea Were not these in great Authority in their Countrey And are they not in most part of Christendome thought to have been Kings Aegypt hath been thought by many the most ancient Kingdom and Nation of the World and their Priests had the greatest power in Civil Affairs that any Subjects ever had in any Nation And what were they but Philosophers and Divines concerning whom the same Diodorus Siculus says thus The whole Countrey of Aegypt being divided into three parts the Body of the Priests have one as being of most credit with the People both for their Devotion towards the Gods and also for their understanding gotten by Education and presently after for generally these men in the greatest Affairs of all are the King's Councellors partly executing and partly informing and advising foretelling him also by their skill in Astrology and Art in the Inspection
of Sacrifices the things that are to come and reading to him out of their Holy Books such of the Actions there recorded as are profitable for him to know 'T is not there as in Greece one man or one woman that has the Priesthood but they are many that attend the Honours and Sacrifices of the Gods and leave the same employment to their posterity which next to the King hath the greatest Power and Authority Concerning the Judicature amongst the Aegyptians he saith thus from out of the most eminent Cities Hieropolis Thebes and Memphis they choose Judges which are a Councel not inferior to that of Areopagus in Athens or that of the Senate in Lacedaemon When they are met being in number 30 they choose one from amongst themselves to be Chief Justice and the City whereof he is sendeth another in his place This Chief Justice wore about his Neck hung in a Gold Chain a Jewel of pretious Stones the name of which Jewel was Truth which when the Chief Justice had put on then began the Pleading c. and when the Judges had agreed on the Sentence then did the Chief Justice put this Jewel of Truth to one of the Pleas. You see now what power was acquir'd in Civil matters by the Conjuncture of Philosophy and Divinity Let us come now to the Common-wealth of the Jews Was not the Priesthood in a Family namely the Levites as well as the Priesthood of Aegypt Did not the High Priest give Judgment by the Breast-plate of Urim and Thummim Look upon the Kingdom of Assyria and the Philosophers and Chaldaeans Had they not Lands and Cities belonging to their Family even in Abraham's time who dwelt you know in Vr of the Chaldaeans of these the same Author says thus The Chaldaeans are a Sect in Politicks like to that of the Aegyptian Priests for being ordained for the Service of the Gods they spend the whole time of their life in Philosophy being of exceeding great reputation in Astrology and pretending much also to Prophecy foretelling things to come by Purifications and Sacrifices and to find out by certain Incantations the preventing of harm and the bringing to pass of good They have also skill in Augury and in the Interpretation of Dreams and Wonders nor are unskilful in the Art of foretelling by the Inwards of Beasts sacrificed and have their Learning not as the Greeks for the Philosophy of the Chaldaeons goes to their Family by Tradition and the Son receives it from his Father From Assyria let us pass into India and see what esteem the Philosophers had there The whole Multitude says Diodorus of the Indians is divided into seven parts whereof the first is the Body of Philosophers for number the least but for eminence the first for they are free from Taxes and as they are not Masters of others so are no others Masters of them By private men they are called to the Sacrifices and to the care of burials of the dead as being thought most beloved of the Gods and skilful in the Doctrine concerning Hell and for this Employment receive Gifts and Honours very considerable They are also of great use to the People of India for being taken at the beginning of the year into the Great Assembly they foretell them of great Drouths great Rains also of Winds and of Sicknesses and of whatsoever is profitable for them to know before-hand The same Author concerning the Laws of the Aethiopians saith thus The Laws of the Aethiopians seem very different from those of other Nations and especially about the Election of their Kings for the Priests propound some of the Chief Men amongst them named in a Catalogue and whom the God which according to a certain Custom is carried about to Feastings does accept of him the Multitude elect for their King and presently adore and honour him as a God put into the Government by Divine Providence The King being chosen he has the manner of his life limited to him by the Laws and does all other things according to the Custom of the Countrey neither rewarding nor punishing any man otherwise than from the beginning is established amongst them by Law nor use they to put any man to death though he be condemned to it but to send some Officer to him with a Token of death who seeing the Token goes presently to his House and kills himself presently after But the strangest thing of all is that which they do concerning the death of their Kings for the Priests that live in Meröe and spend their time about the Worship and Honour of the Gods and are in greatest Authority when they have a mind to it send a Messenger to the King to bid him die for that the Gods have given such order and that the Commandments of the Immortals are not by any means to be neglected by those that are by Nature Mortal using also other Speeches to him which men of simple Judgment and that have not reason enough to dispute against those unnecessary Commands as being educated in an old and undelible Custom are content to admit of Therefore in former times the Kings did obey the Priests not as mastered by Force and Arms but as having their reason mastered by Superstition But in the time of Ptolomy the second Ergamenes King of the Aethiopians having had his breeding in Philosophy after the manner of the Greeks being the first that durst dispute their power took heart as befitted a King came with Soldiers to a place called Abaton where was then the Golden Temple of the Aethiopians killed all the Priests abolished the Custom and rectified the Kingdom according to his will B. Though they that were killed were most damnable Impostors yet the Act was cruel A. It was so but were not the Priests cruel to cause their Kings whom a little before they adored as Gods to make away themselves The King killed them for the safety of his Person they him out of Ambition or love of Change The King's Act may be coloured with the good of his People The Priests had no pretence against their Kings who were certainly very godly or else would never have obeyed the Command of the Priests by a Messenger unarmed to kill themselves Our late King the best King perhaps that ever was you know was murdered having been first persecuted by War at the incitement of Presbyterian Ministers who are therefore guilty of the death of all that fell in that War which were I believe in England Scotland and Ireland near 100000 persons Had it not been much better that those seditious Ministers which were not perhaps 1000 had been all killed before they had preached It had been I confess a great Massacre but the killing of 100000 is a greater B. I am glad the Bishops were out at this business as ambitious as some say they are it did not appear in that business for they were Enemies to them that were in it A. But I intend not by these Quotations to
for the securing them from all Dangers or Jealousies of any his Majesty will be content to put into all the places both Forts and Militia in the several Counties such persons as both the Houses of Parliament shall either approve or recommend unto him so that they declare before unto his Majesty the Names of the persons whom they approve or recommend unless such persons shall be named against whom he shall have just and unquestionable exceptions B. What power for what time and to whom did the Parliament grant concerning the Militia A. The same power which the King had before planted in his Lieutenants and Deputy-Lieutenants in the several Counties and without other limitation of time but their own pleasure B. Who were the men that had this power A. There is a Catalogue of them printed They are very many and most of them Lords nor is it necessary to have them named for to name them is in my opinion to brand them with the mark of Disloyalty or of Folly When they had made a Catalogue of them they sent it to the King with a new Petition for the Militia Also presently after they sent a Message to his Majesty praying him to leave the Prince at Hampton Court but the King granted neither B. Howsoever it was well done of them to get Hostages if they could of the King before he went from them A. In the mean time to raise Money for the reducing of Ireland the Parliament invited men to bring in Money by way of Adventure according to these Propositions 1. That two millions and five hundred thousand Acres of Land in Ireland should be assigned to the Adventurers in this proportion  l.  For an Adventure of 200 1000 Acres in Vlster 300 1000 Acres in Conaught 450 1000 Acres in Munster 600 1000 Acres in Lemster All according to English measure and consisting of Meadow Arable and profitable Pasture Bogs Woods and barren Mountains being cast in over and above 2. A Revenue was reserved to the Crown from 1 d. to 3 d. on every Acre 3. That Commissions should be sent by the Parliament to erect Mannors settle Wasts and Commons maintain preaching Ministers to create Corporations and to regulate Plantations The rest of the Propositions concern only the times and manner of payment of the Sums subscribed by the Adventurers And to these Propositions his Majesty assented but to the Petition of the Militia his Majesty denied his Assent B. If he had not I should have thought it a great wonder What did the Parliament after this A. They sent him another Petition which was presented to him when he was at Theobalds in his way to York wherein they tell him plainly That unless he be pleased to assure them by those Messengers then sent that he would speedily apply his Royal Assent to the satisfaction of their former desires they shall be enforced for the safety of his Majesty and his Kingdoms to dispose of the Militia by the Authority of both Houses c. They petition his Majesty also to let the Prince stay at St. James's or some other of his Majesties Houses near London They tell him also that the power of raising ordering and disposing of the Militia cannot be granted to any Corporation without the Authority and Consent of Parliament and that those parts of the Kingdom which have put themselves into a posture of defence have done nothing therein but by direction of both Houses and what is justifiable by the Laws of this Kingdom B. What answer made the King to this A. It was a putting of themselves into Arms and under Officers such as the Parliament should approve of 4. They Voted That his Majesty should be again desired that the Prince might continue about London Lastly They Voted a Declaration to be sent to his Majesty by both the Houses wherein they accuse his Majesty of a Design of altering Religion though not directly him but them that counsel'd him whom they also accused of being the Inviters and Fomenters of the Scotch War and Framers of the Rebellion in Ireland and upbraid the King again for accusing the Lord Kimbolton and the five Members and of being privy to the purpose of bringing up his Army which was raised against the Scots to be employed against the Parliament To which his Majesty sent his Answer from Newmarket Whereupon it was resolved by both Houses that in this Case of extream Danger and of his Majesties refusal the Ordinance agreed upon by both Houses for the Militia doth oblige the People by the fundamental Laws of this Kingdom and also that whosoever shall execute any power over the Militia by colour of any Commission of Lieutenancy without consent of both Houses of Parliament shall be accounted a Disturber of the peace of the Kingdom Whereupon his Majesty sent a Message to both Houses from Huntington requiring obedience to the Laws established and prohibiting all Subjects upon pretence of their Ordinance to execute any thing concerning the Militia which is not by those Laws warranted Upon this the Parliament vote a standing to their former Votes as also that when the Lords and Commons in Parliament which is the Supream Court of Judicature in the Kingdom shall declare what the Law of the Land is to have this not only question'd but contradicted is a high breach of the Priviledge of Parliament B. I thought that he that makes the Law ought to declare what the Law is for what is it else to make a Law but to declare what it is So that they have taken from the King not only the Militia but also the Legislative Power A. They have so but I make account that the Legislative Power and indeed all power possible is contained in the power of the Militia After this they seize such Money as was due to his Majesty upon the Bill of Tonnage and Poundage and upon the Bill of Subsidies that they might disable him every way they possibly could They sent him also many other contumelious Messages and Petitions after his coming to York amongst which one was That whereas the Lord Admiral by indisposition of Body could not command the Fleet in person he would be pleased to give Authority to the Earl of Warwick to supply his place when they knew the King had put Sir John Pennington in it before B. To what end did the King entertain so many Petitions Messages Declarations and Remonstrances and vouchsafe his Answers to them when he could not choose but clearly see they were resolv'd to take from him his Royal Power and consequently his Life For it could not stand with their safety to let either him or his Issue live after they had done him so great Injuries A. Besides this the Parliament had at the same time a Committee residing at York to spy what his Majesty did and to inform the Parliament thereof and also to hinder the King from gaining the People of that County to his Party So that when his Majesty
was courting the Gentlemen there the Committee was instigating of the Yeomanry against him To which also the Ministers did very much contribute So that the King lost his opportunity at York B. Why did not the King seize the Committee into his Hands or drive them out of Town A. I know not but I believe he knew the Parliament had a greater Party than he not only in York-shire but also in York Towards the end of April the King upon Petition of the People of York-shire to have the Magazine of Hull to remain still there for the greater security of the Northern parts thought fit to take it into his own Hands He had a little before appointed Governour of that Town the Earl of New-Castle but the Towns-men having been already corrupted by the Parliament refused to receive him but refused not to receive Sir John Hotham appointed to be Governour by the Parliament The King therefore coming before the Town guarded only by his own Servants and a few Gentlemen of the Countrey thereabouts was denied entrance by Sir John Hotham that stood upon the Wall for which Act he presently caused Sir John Hotham to be proclaimed Traitor and sent a Message to the Parliament requiring Justice to be done upon the said Hotham and that the Town and Magazine might be delivered into his hands To which the Parliament made no answer but in stead thereof published another Declaration in which they omitted nothing of their former slanders against his Majesties Government but inserted certain Propositions declarative of their own pretended Right viz. 1. That whatsoever they declare to be Law ought not to be question'd by the King 2. That no Precedents can be limits to bound their proceedings 3. That a Parliament for the publick good may dispose of any thing wherein the King or Subject hath a Right and that they without the King are this Parliament and the Judge of this publick good and that the King's Consent is not necessary 4. That no Member of either House ought to be troubled for Treason Felony or any other Crime unless the Cause be first brought before the Parliament that they may judge of the Fact and give leave to proceed if they see cause 5. That the Sovereign Power resides in both Houses and that the King ought to have no Negative Voice 6 That the Levying of Forces against the personal Commands of the King though accompanied with his presence is not Levying War against the King but the Levying of War against his Politick Person viz. his Laws c. 7. That Treason cannot be committed against his Person otherwise than as he is entrusted with the Kingdom and discharges that Trust and that they have a power to judge whether he have discharged this Trust or not 8. That they may dispose of the King when they will B. This is plain dealing and without Hypocrisie Could the City of London swallow this A. Yes and more too if need be London you know has a great Belly but no Pallat nor Tast of Right and Wrong In the Parliament Roll of Hen. 4. amongst the Articles of the Oath the King at his Coronation took there is one runs thus Concedes just as Leges Consuetudines esse tenendas promittes per te eas esse protegendas ad honorem Dei corroborandas quas vulgus elegerit Which the Parliament urged for their Legislative Authority and therefore interpret quas vulgus elegerit which the People shall choose as if the King should swear to protect and corroborate Laws before they were made whether they be good or bad whereas the words signifie no more but that he shall protect and corroborate such Laws as they have chosen that is to say the Acts of Parliament then in being And in the Records of the Exchequer it is thus Will you grant to hold and keep the Laws and rightful Customs which the Commonalty of this your Kingdom have and will you defend and uphold them c. And this was the Answer his Majesty made to that Point B. And I think this Answer very full and clear but if the words were to be interpreted in the other sense yet I see no reason why the King should be bound to swear to them for Hen. 4. came to the Crown by the Votes of a Parliament not much inferior in wickedness to this Long Parliament that deposed and murdered their Lawful King saving that it was not the Parliament it self but the Usurper that murdered King Richard the second A. About a week after in the beginning of May the Parliament sent the King another Paper which they stiled the humble Petition and Advice of both Houses containing 19 Propositions which when you shall hear you shall be able to judge what power they meant to leave to the King more than to any one of his Subjects The first of them is this 1. That the Lords and others of his Majesties Privy-Council and all great Officers of State both at home and abroad be put from their Employments and from his Council save only such as should be approved of by both Houses of Parliament and none put into their places but by approbation of the said Houses And that all Privy-Councellors take an Oath for the due execution of their places in such form as shall be agreed upon by the said Houses 2. That the great Affairs of the Kingdom be debated resolved and transacted only in Parliament and such as shall presume to do any thing to the contrary be reserved to the censure of the Parliament and such other matters of State as are proper for his Majesties Privy-Council shall be debated and concluded by such as shall from time to time be chosen for that place by both Houses of Parliament and that no publick Act concerning the Affairs of the Kingdom which are proper for his Privy-Council be esteemed valid as proceeding from the Royal Authority unless it be done by the Advice and Consent of the Major part of the Councel attested under their Hands and that the Council be not more than 25 nor less than 15 and that when a Councellors place falls void in the Interval of Parliament it shall not be supplied without the Assent of the Major part of the Council and that such choice also shall be void if the next Parliament after confirm it not 3. That the Lord High Steward of England Lord High Constable Lord Chancellor or Lord Keeper of the Great Seal Lord Treasurer Lord Privy-Seal Earl Marshal Lord Admiral Warden of the Cinque Ports Chief Governour of Ireland Chancellor of the Exchequer Master of the Wards Secretaries of State two Chief Justices and Chief Baron be always chosen with the Approbation of both Houses of Parliament and in the Intervals of Parliament by the Major part of the Privy-Council 4. That the Government of the King's Children shall be committed to such as both Houses shall approve of and in the Intervals of Parliament such as the Privy-Council
and other Writings could have done by far and I wonder what kind of Men they were that hindered the King from taking this Resolution A. You may know by the Declarations themselves which are very long and full of quotations of Records and of Cases formerly Reported that the Penners of them were either Lawyers by profession or such Gentlemen as had the Ambition to be thought so Besides I told you before that those which were then likeliest to have their Counsel asked in this business were averse to absolute Monarchy as also to absolute Democracy or Aristocracy all which Governments they esteemed Tyranny and were in love with Monarchy which they used to praise by the Name of mixt Monarchy though it were indeed nothing else but pure Anarchy And those Men whose Pens the King most used in these Controversies of Law and Politicks were such if I have not been misinformed as having been Members of this Parliament had declaimed against Ship-Money and other Extraparliamentary Taxes as much as any but when they saw the Parliament grow higher in their Demands than they thought they would have done went over to the King's Party B. Who were those A. It is not necessary to name any man seeing I have undertaken only a short Narration of the follies and other faults of men during this trouble but not by naming the persons to give you or any man else occasion to esteem them the less now that the faults on all sides have been forgiven B. When the business was brought to this height by Levying of Soldiers and seizing of the Navy and Arms and other Provisions on both sides that no man was so blind as not to see they were in an estate of War one against another why did not the King by Proclamation or Message according to his undoubted Right dissolve the Parliament and thereby diminish in some part the Authority of their Levies and of other their unjust Ordinances A. You have forgotten that I told you that the King himself by a Bill that he passed at the same time when he passed the Bill for the Execution of the Earl of Strafford had given them Authority to hold the Parliament till they should by consent of both Houses dissolve themselves If therefore he had by any Proclamation or Message to the Houses dissolved them they would to their former defamations of his Majesties Actions have added this that he was a breaker of his word and not only in contempt of him have continued their Session but also have made advantage of it to the increase and strengthening of their own Party B. Would not the King 's raising of an Army against them be interpreted as a purpose to dissolve them by force And was it not as great a breach of promise to scatter them by force as to dissolve them by Proclamation Besides I cannot conceive that the passing of that Act was otherwise intended than conditionally so long as they should not ordain any thing contrary to the Sovereign Right of the King which Condition they had already by many of their Ordinances broken And I think that even by the Law of Equity which is the unalterable Law of Nature a man that has the Sovereign Power cannot if he would give away the Right of any thing which is necessary for him to retain for the good Government of his Subjects unless he do it in express words saying That he will have the Sovereign Power no longer For the giving away that which by consequence only draws the Sovereignty along with it is not I think a giving away of the Sovereignty but an error such as works nothing but an invalidity in the Grant it self And such was the King's passing of this Bill for the continuing of the Parliament as long as the two Houses pleased But now that the War was resolved on on both sides what needed any more dispute in writing A. I know not what need they had but on both sides they thought it needful to hinder one another as much as they could from Levying of Soldiers and therefore the King did set forth Declarations in print to make the People know that they ought not to obey the Officers of the new Militia set up by Ordinance of Parliament and also to let them see the Legality of his own Commissions of Array And the Parliament on their part did the like to justifie to the People the said Ordinance and to make the Commission of Array appear unlawful B. When the Parliament were Levying of Soldiers was it not lawful for the King to Levy Soldiers to defend himself and his Right though there had been no other Title for it but his own Preservation and that the Name of Commission of Array had never before been heard of A. For my part I think there cannot be a better Title for War than the defence of a man 's own Right but the People at that time thought nothing lawful for the King to do for which there was not some Statute made by Parliament For the Lawyers I mean the Judges of the Courts at Westminster and some few others though but Advocates yet of great reputation for their skill in the Common Laws and Statutes of England had infected most of the Gentry of England with their Maxims and Cases prejudged which they call Presidents and made them think so well of their own knowledge in the Law that they were very glad of this occasion to shew it against the King and thereby to gain a Reputation with the Parliament of being good Patriots and wise States-men B. What was this Commission of Array A. King William the Conqueror had gotten into his hands by Victory all the Land in England of which he disposed some part as Forests and Chases for his Recreation and some part to Lords and Gentlemen that had assisted him or were to assist him in the Wars upon which he laid a charge of Service in his Wars some with more men and some with less according to the Lands he had given them whereby when the King sent men unto them with Commission to make use of their Service they were obliged to appear with Arms and to accompany the King to the Wars for a certain time at their own charges and such were the Commissions by which this King did then make his Levies B. Why then was it not legal A. No doubt but it was legal but what did that amount to with men that were already resolv'd to acknowledge for Law nothing that was against their Design of abolishing Monarchy and placing a Sovereign and absolute arbitrary Power in the House of Commons B. To destroy Monarchy and set up the House of Commons are two businesses A. They found it so at last but did not think it so then B. Let us now come to the Military part A. I intended only the Story of their Injustice Impudence and Hypocrisie therefore for the proceeding of the War I refer you to the History thereof written at
to perform July the 11 th the Parliament sent their Propositions to the King at New-Castle which Propositions they pretended to be the only way to a setled and well grounded Peace They were brought by the Earl of Pembroke the Earl of Suffolk Sir Walter Earle Sir John Hyppesly Mr. Goodwin and Mr. Robinson whom the King asked if they had power to Treat and when they said no why they might not as well have been sent by a Trumpeter The Propositions were the same dethroning ones which they used to send and therefore the King would not assent to them Nor did the Scots swallow them at first but made some exceptions against them only it seems to make the Parliament perceive they meant not to put the King into their hands gratis And so at last the bargain was made between them and upon the payment of 200000 l. the King was put into the hands of the Commissioners which the English Parliament sent down to receive him B. What a vile Complexion has this Action compounded of feigned Religion and very Covetousness Cowardice Perjury and Treachery A. Now the War that seemed to justifie many unseemly things is ended you will see almost nothing else in these Rebels but baseness and falseness besides their folly By this time the Parliament had taken in all the rest of the Kings Garrisons whereof the last was Pendennis Castle whither Duke Hamilton had been sent Prisoner by the King B. What was done during this time in Ireland and Scotland A. In Ireland there had been a Peace made by order from his Majesty for a time which by Divisions amongst the Irish was ill kept the Popish Party the Pope's Nuntio being then there took this to be the time for delivering themselves from their subjection to the English Besides the time of the Peace was now expir'd B. How were they subject to the English more than the English to the Irish They were subject to the King of England but so also were the English to the King of Ireland A. This Distinction is somewhat too subtil for common Understandings In Scotland the Marquess of Montrosse for the King with a very few Men and miraculous Victories had over-run all Scotland where many of his Forces out of too much security were permitted to be absent for a while of which the Enemy having Intelligence suddenly came upon them and forced them to fly back into the Highlands to recruit where he began to recover strength when he was commanded by the King then in the hands of the Scots at New-Castle to disband and he departed from Scotland by Sea In the end of the same year 1646. the Parliament caused the Kings Great Seal to be broken also the King was brought to Holmeby and there kept by the Parliaments Commissioners and here was an end of that War as to England and Scotland but not to Ireland About this time also died the Earl of Essex whom the Parliament had discarded B. Now that there was peace in England and the King in prison in whom was the Sovereign Power A. The Right was certainly in the King but the Exercise was yet in no body but contended for as in a Game at Cards without fighting all the years 1647. and 1648. between the Parliament and Oliver Cromwel Lieutenant-General to Sir Thomas Fairfax You must know that when King Henry the 8 th abolished the Popes Authority here and took upon him to be the Head of the Church the Bishops as they could not resist him so neither were they discontented with it For whereas before the Pope allowed not the Bishops to claim Jurisdiction in their Diocesses Jure Divino that is of Right immediately from God but by the Gift and Authority of the Pope now that the Pope was outed they made no doubt but the Divine Right was in themselves After this the City of Geneva and divers other places beyond Sea having revolted from the Papacy set up Presbyteries for the Government of their several Churches and divers English Scholars that went beyond Sea during the persecution in the time of Queen Mary were much taken with this Government and at their return in the time of Queen Elizabeth and ever since have endeavour'd to the great trouble of the Church and Nation to set up that Government here wherein they might domineer and applaud their own Wit and Learning and these took upon them not only a Divine Right but also a Divine Inspiration and having been connived at and countenanced sometimes in their frequent preaching they introduced many strange and many pernicious Doctrines out-doing the Reformation as they pretended both of Luther and Calvin receding from the former Divinity or Church-Philosophy for Religion is another thing as much as Luther and Calvin had receded from the Pope and distracted their Auditors into a great number of Sects as Brownists Anabaptists Independents Fifth-monarchy-men Quakers and divers others all commonly called by the name of Fanaticks in so much as there was no so dangerous an Enemy to the Presbyterians as this brood of their own hatching These were Cromwel's best Cards whereof he had a very great number in the Army and some in the House whereof he himself was thought one though he were nothing certain but applying himself always to the Faction that was strongest was of a colour like it There were in the Army a great number if not the greatest part that aimed only at rapine and sharing the Lands and Goods of their Enemies and these also upon the opinion they had of Cromwel's Valor and Conduct thought they could not any way better arrive at their ends than by adhering to him Lastly in the Parliament it self though not the Major part yet a considerable number were Fanaticks enough to put in doubts and cause delay in the resolutions of the House and sometimes also by advantage of a thin House to carry a Vote in favour of Cromwel as they did upon the 26 th of July For whereas on the fourth of May precedent the Parliament had voted that the Militia of London should be in the hands of a Committee of Citizens whereof the Lord Major for the time being should be one shortly after the Independents chancing to be the major made an Ordinance by which it was put into hands more favourable to the Army The best Cards the Parliament had were the City of London and the Person of the King The General Sir Tho. Fairfax was right Presbyterian but in the hands of the Army and the Army in the hands of Cromwel but which Party should prevail depended on the playing of the Game Cromwel protested still obedience and fidelity to the Parliament but meaning nothing less bethought him and resolv'd on a way to excuse himself of all that he should do to the contrary upon the Army Therefore he and his Son-in-law Commissary-General Ireton as good at contriving as himself and at speaking and writing better contrive how to mutiny the Army against the Parliament To
they require first That the King be brought to Justice 2. That the Prince and Duke of York be summoned to appear at a day appointed and proceeded with according as they should give satisfaction 3. That the Parliament settle the Peace and future Government and set a reasonable period to their own sitting and make certain future Parliaments Annual or Biennial 4. That a competent number of the King 's Chief Instruments be executed And this to be done both by the House of Commons and by a general Agreement of the People testified by their Subscriptions Nor did they stay for an Answer but presently set a Guard of Soldiers at the Parliament-house-door and other Soldiers in Westminster-Hall suffering none to go into the House but such as would serve their turns All others were frighted away or made Prisoners and some upon divers quarrels suspended Above 90 of them because they had refused to vote against the Scots and others because they had voted against the Vote of Non-Addresses and the rest were an House for Cromwel The Fanaticks also in the City being countenanced by the Army pack a new Common Councel whereof any forty was to be above the Major and their first work was to frame a Petition for Justice against the King which Tichborne the Major involving the City in the Regicide delivered to the Parliament At the same time with the like violence they took the King from Newport in the Isle of Wight to Hurst Castle till things were ready for his Trial. The Parliament in the mean time to avoid perjury by an Ordinance declared void the Oaths of Supremacy and Allegiance and presently after made another to bring the King to his Trial. B. This is a piece of Law that I understood not before that when many Men swear singly they may when they are assembled if they please absolve themselves A. The Ordinance being drawn up was brought into the House where after three several Readings it was voted That the Lords and Commons of England assembled in Parliament do declare That by the fundamental Laws of the Realm it is Treason in the King of England to Levy War against the Parliament And this Vote was sent up to the Lords and they denying their consent the Commons in anger made another Vote That all Members of Committees should proceed and act in any Ordinance whether the Lords concurred or no and that the People under God are the original of all just Power and that the House of Commons have the Supream Power of the Nation and that whatsoever the House of Commons enacteth is Law All this passed nemine contradicente B. These Propositions fight not only against a King of England but against all the Kings of the World It were good they thought on 't but yet I believe under God the original of all Laws was in the People A. But the People for them and their Heirs by consent and Oaths have long ago put the Supream Power of the Nation into the hands of their Kings for them and their Heirs and consequently into the hands of this King their known and lawful Heir B. But does not the Parliament represent the People A. Yes to some purposes as to put up Petitions to the King when they have leave and are grieved but not to make a Grievance of the King's Power Besides the Parliament never represents the People but when the King calls them nor is it to be imagin'd that he calls a Parliament to depose himself Put the Case every County and Burrough should have given this Parliament for a Benevolence a Sum of Money and that every County meeting in their County-Court or elsewhere and every Burrough in their Town-Hall should have chosen certain men to carry their several Sums respectively to the Parliament Had not these men represented the whole Nation B. Yes no doubt A. Do you think the Parliament would have thought it reasonable to be called to account by this Representative B. No sure and yet I must confess the Case is the same A. This Ordinance contained first a Summary of the Charge against the King in substance this That not content with the Encroachments of his Predecessors upon the freedom of the People he had designed to set up a Tyrannical Government and to that end had raised and maintained in the Land a Civil War against the Parliament whereby the Country hath been miserably wasted the publick Treasure exhausted thousands of people murdered and infinite other mischiefs committed Secondly A Constitution passed of a High Court of Justice that is of a certain number of Commissioners of whom any 20 had Power to try the King and to proceed to Sentence according to the merit of the Cause and see it speedily executed The Commissioners met on Saturday Jan. 20 th in Westminster-Hall and the King was brought before them where sitting in a Chair he heard the Charge read but denied to plead to it either Guilty or Not Guilty till he should know by what Lawful Authority he was brought thither The President told him That the Parliament affirmed their own Authority and the King persevered in his refusal to plead though many words passed between him and the President yet this was the substance of it all On Monday January 22 the Court met again and the Solicitor moved that if the King persisted in denying the Authority of the Court the Charge might be taken pro confesso but the King still denied their Authority They met again January 23 and then the Solicitor moved the Court for Judgment whereupon the King was requir'd to give his final Answer which was again a denial of their Authority Lastly They met again January 27 where the King desir'd to be heard before the Lords and Commons in the Painted Chamber and promising after that to abide the Judgment of the Court The Commissioners retir'd for half an hour to consider of it and then returning caused the King to be brought again to the Bar and told him that what he proposed was but another denial of the Courts Jurisdiction and that if he had no more to say they would proceed Then the King answering that he had no more to say the President began a long Speech in Justification of the Parliaments Proceedings producing the Examples of many Kings killed or deposed by wicked Parliaments Ancient and Modern in England Scotland and other parts of the World All which he endeavoured to justifie from this only Principle That the People have the Supream Power and the Parliament is the People This Speech ended the Sentence of death was read and the same upon Tuesday after January 30 executed at the Gate of his own Palace of White-hall He that can delight in reading how villainously he was used by the Soldiers between the Sentence and Execution may go to the Chronicle it self in which he shall see what Courage Patience Wisdom and Goodness was in this Prince whom in their Charge the Members of that wicked Parliament
stiled Tyrant Traitor and Murderer The King being dead the same day they made an Act of Parliament that whereas several pretences might be made to the Crown c. It is Enacted by this present Parliament and Authority of the same That no person presume to declare proclaim or publish or any way promote Charles Stuart Son of Charles late King of England commonly called Prince of Wales or any other person to be King of England or Ireland c. B. Seeing the King was dead and his Successor barred by what declar'd Authority was the Peace maintain'd A. They had in their anger against the Lords formerly declar'd the Supream Power of the Nation to be in the House of Commons and now on February 5 th they vote the House of Lords to be useless and dangerous And thus the Kingdom is turned into a Democracie or rather an Oligarchie for presently they made an Act That none of those Members who were secluded for opposing the Vote of Non-Addresses should ever be re-admitted And these were commonly called the secluded Members and the rest were by some stiled a Parliament and by others the Rump I think you need not now have a Catalogue either of the Vices or of the Crimes or of the Follies of the greatest part of them that composed the Long Parliament than which greater cannot be in the World What greater Vices than Irreligion Hypocrisie Avarice and Cruelty which have appear'd so eminently in the Actions of Presbyterian Members and Presbyterian Ministers What greater Crimes than Blaspheming and Killing God's Anointed which was done by the hands of the Independents but by the folly and first Treason of the Presbyterians who betrayed and sold him to his Murderers Nor was it a little folly in the Lords not to see that by the taking away of the King's Power they lost withal their own Priviledges or to think themselves either for number or judgment any way a considerable assistance to the House of Commons And for those men who had skill in the Laws it was no great sign of understanding not to perceive that the Laws of the Land were made by the King to oblige his Subjects to Peace and Justice and not to oblige himself that made them And lastly and generally all men are fools which pull down any thing which does them good before they have set up something better in its place He that would set up Democracie with an Army should have an Army to maintain it but these men did it when those men had the Army that were resolv'd to pull it down To these Follies I might add the folly of those fine men which out of their reading of Tully Seneca or other Antimonarchiques think themselves sufficient Politiques and shew their discontents when they are not called to the management of the State and turn from one side to another upon every neglect they fancy from the King or his Enemies Behemoth PART IV. A. YOU have seen the Rump in possession as they believ'd of the Supream Power over the two Nations of England and Ireland and the Army their Servant though Cromwel thought otherwise serving them diligently for the advancement of his own purposes I am now therefore to shew you their Proceedings B. Tell me first how this kind of Government under the Rump or Relique of a House of Commons is to be called A. 'T is doubtless an Oligarchy for the Supream Authority must needs be in one man or in more If in one it is Monarchy the Rump therefore was no Monarchy If the Authority were in more than one it was in all or in fewer than all When in all it is Democracy for every man may enter into the Assembly which makes the Sovereign Court which they could not do here It is therefore manifest that the Authority was in a few and consequently the State was an Oligarchy B. Is it not impossible for a People to be well govern'd that are to obey more Masters than one A. Both the Rump and all other Sovereign Assemblies if they have but one Voice though they be many Men yet are they but one Person for contrary Commands cannot consist in one and the same Voice which is the Voice of the greatest part and therefore they might govern well enough if they had Honesty and Wit enough The first Act of the Rump was the Exclusion of those Members of the House of Commons which had been formerly kept out by violence for the procuring of an Ordinance for the King's Tryal for these men had appear'd against the Ordinance of Non-Addresses and therefore to be excluded because they might else be an Impediment to their future Designs B. Was it not rather because in the Authority of few they thought the fewer the better both in respect of their shares and also of a nearer approach in every one of them to the Dignity of a King A. Yes certainly that was their principal end B. When these were put out why did not the Counties and Burroughs choose others in their places A. They could not do that without order from the House After this they constituted a Councel of 40 persons which they termed a Councel of State whose Office was to execute what the Rump should command B. When there was neither King nor House of Lords they could not call themselves a Parliament for a Parliament is a Meeting of the King Lords and Commons to confer together about the businesses of the Common-wealth With whom did the Rump confer A. Men may give to their Assembly what name they please what signification soever such Name might formerly have had and the Rump took the Name of Parliament as most suitable to their purpose and such a Name as being venerable amongst the people for many hundred years had countenanced and sweetned Subsidies and other Levies of Money otherwise very unpleasant to the Subject They took also afterwards another name which was Custodes Libertatis Angliae which Titles they used only in their Writs issuing out of the Courts of Justice B. I do not see how a Subject that is tied to the Laws can have more liberty in one form of Government than another A. Howsoever to the people that understand by liberty nothing but leave to do what they list it was a Title not ingrateful Their next work was to set forth a publick Declaration That they were fully resolv'd to maintain the fundamental Laws of the Nation as to the Preservation of the Lives Liberties and Proprieties of the People B. What did they mean by the fundamental Laws of the Nation A. Nothing but to abuse the people for the only fundamental Law in every Common-wealth is To obey the Laws from time to time which he shall make to whom the People have given the Supream Power How likely then are they to uphold the fundamental Laws that had murder'd him who was by themselves so often acknowledged for their Lawful Sovereign Besides at the same time that this Declaration came
the contrary Was it not the Protector that made the Parliament Why did they not acknowledge their Maker A. I believe it is the desire of most men to bear Rule but few of them know what Title one has to it more than another besides the Right of the Sword B. If they acknowledged the Right of the Sword they were neither just nor wise to oppose the present Government set up and approved by all the Forces of the three Kingdoms The Principles of this House of Commons were no doubt the very same with theirs who began the Rebellion and would if they could have raised a sufficient Army have done the same against the Protector and the General of their Army would in like manner have reduced them to a Rump for they that keep an Army and cannot master it must be subject to it as much as he that keeps a Lion in his House The temper of all the Parliaments since the time of Queen Elizabeth has been the same with the temper of this Parliament and shall always be such as long as the Presbyterians and men of Democratical Principles have the like Influence upon the Elections A. After they resolv'd concerning the other House that during this Parliament they would transact with it but without intrenching upon the Right of the Peers to have Writs sent to them in all future Parliaments These Votes being passed they proceed to another wherein they assume to themselves the Power of the Militia Also to shew their Supream Power they deliver'd out of prison some of those that had been they said illegally committed by the former Protector Other Points concerning Civil Rights and concerning Religion very pleasing to the People were now also under their Consideration So that in the end of this year the Protector was no less jealous of the Parliament than of the Councel of Officers at Wallingford-house B. Thus 't is when ignorant men will undertake Reformation Here are three Parties the Protector the Parliament and the Army The Protector against Parliament and Army the Parliament against Army and Protector and the Army against Protector and Parliament A. In the beginning of 1659. the Parliament passed divers other Acts one was to forbid the Meetings in Councel of the Army-Officers without order from the Protector and both Houses Another That no man shall have any Command or Trust in the Army who did not first under his hand engage himself never to interrupt any of the Members but that they might freely meet and debate in the House And to please the Soldiers they voted to take presently into their Consideration the means of paying them their Arrears But whilst they were considering this the Protector according to the first of those Acts forbad the meeting of Officers at Wallingford-house This made the Government which by the disagreement of the Protector and Army was already loose to fall in pieces For the Officers from Wallingford-house with Soldiers enough came over to White-hall and brought with them a Commission ready drawn giving power to Desborough to dissolve the Parliament for the Protector to sign which also his Heart and his Party sailing him he signed The Parliament nevertheless continued sitting but at the end of the Week the House adjourned till the Monday after being April the 25 th At their coming on Monday morning they found the door of the House shut up and the passages to it filled with Soldiers who plainly told them they must sit no longer Richard's Authority and business in Town being thus at an end he retir'd into the Country where within a few days upon promise of the payment of his Debts which his Father's Funeral had made great he signed a Resignation of his Protectorship B. To whom A. To no body But after ten days Cessation of the Sovereign Power some of the Rumpers that were in Town together with the old Speaker Mr. William Lenthal resolv'd amongst themselves and with Lambert Heslerig and other Officers who were also Rumpers in all 42 to go into the House which they did and were by the Army declared to be the Parliament There were also in Westminster-hall at that time about their private business some few of those whom the Army had secluded in 1648. and were called the Secluded Members These knowing themselves to have been elected by the same Authority and to have the same Right to sit attempted to get into the House but were kept out by the Soldiers The first Vote of the Rump re-seated was That such persons as heretofore Members of this Parliament have not sitten in this Parliament since the year 1648. shall not sit in this House till farther order of the Parliament and thus the Rump recovered their Authority May the seventh 1659. which they lost in April 1653. B. Seeing there have been so many Shiftings of the Supream Authority I pray you for memories sake repeat them briefly in times and order A. First from 1640. to 1648. when the King was murdered the Sovereignty was disputed between King Charles the first and the Presbyterian-Parliament Secondly from 1648. to 1653. the Power was in that part of the Parliament which voted the Tryal of the King and declar'd themselves without King or House of Lords to have the Supream Authority of England and Ireland For there were in the Long Parliament two Factions the Presbyterian and Independent the former whereof sought only the subjection of the King not his destruction directly the latter sought directly his destruction and this part is it which was called the Rump Thirdly from April the 20 th to July the fourth the Supream Power was in the hands of a Councel of State constituted by Cromwel Fourthly from July the 4 th to December the 12 th of the same year it was in the hands of men called unto it by Cromwel whom he termed Men of Fidelity and Integrity and made them a Parliament which was called in contempt of one of the Members Barebone's Parliament Fifthly from December the 12 th 1653. to September the third 1658. it was in the hands of Oliver Cromwel with the Title of Protector Sixthly from September the third 1658. to April the 25 th 1659. Richard Cromwel had it as Successor to his Father Seventhly from April the 25 th 1659. to May the seventh of the same year it was no where Eighthly from May the seventh 1659. the Rump which was turned out of doors in 1653. recover'd it again and shall lose it again to a Committee of Safety and again recover it and again lose it to the Right Owner B. By whom and by what Art came the Rump to be turned out the second time A. One would think them safe enough the Army in Scotland which when it was in London had helped Oliver to put down the Rump submitted now begg'd pardon and promised obedience The Soldiers in Town had their pay mended and the Commanders every where took the old Engagement whereby they had acknowledged their Authority heretofore They
just disposition of Almighty God this Policy turned to a sin and was the utter destruction of Jeroboam and his Family It is not good jesting with edge-tools nor playing with holy things Where men make their greatest fastness many times they find most danger T. H. His Lordship either had a strange Conscience or understood not English Being at Paris when there was no Bishop nor Church in England and every man writ what he pleased I resolved when it should please God to restore the Authority Ecclesiastical to submit to that Authority in whatsoever it should determine This his Lordship construes for a temporizing and too much indifferency in Religion and says further that the last part of my words do smell of Jeroboam To the contrary I say my words were modest and such as in duty I ought to use And I profess still that whatsoever the Church of England the Church I say not every Doctor shall forbid me to say in matter of Faith I shall abstain from saying it excepting this point That Jesus Christ the Son of God dyed for my sins As for other Doctrins I think it unlawful if the Church define them for any Member of the Church to contradict them J. D. His sixth Paradox is a rapper the Civil Laws are the Rules of good and evil just and unjust honest and dishonest and therefore what the Lawgiver commands that is to be accounted good what he forbids bad And a little after before Empires were just and unjust were not as whose nature is Relative to a Command every action in its own nature is indifferent That it is just or unjust proceedeth from the right of him that commandeth Therefore lawful Kings make those things which they command Just by commanding them and those things which they forbid Vnjust by forbidding them To this add his definition of a sin that which one doth or omitteth saith or willeth contrary to the reason of the Common-wealth that is the Civil Laws Where by the Laws he doth not understand the Written Laws elected and approved by the whole Common-wealth but the verbal Commands or Mandates of him that hath the Soveraign Power as we find in many places of his Writings The Civil Laws are nothing else but the Commands of him that is endowed with Soveraign Power in the Common-wealth concerning the future actions of his Subjects And the Civil Laws are fastned to the Lips of that man who hath the Soveraign Power Where are we In Europe or in Asia Where they ascribed a Divinity to their Kings and to use his own Phrase made them Mortal Gods O King live for ever Flatterers are the common Moths of great Pallaces where Alexander's friends are more numerous than the King's friends But such gross palpable pernicious flattery as this is I did never meet with so derogatory both to piety and policy What deserved he who should do his uttermost endeavour to poyson a common Fountain whereof all the Common-wealth must drink He doth the same who poisoneth the mind of a Soveraign Prince Are the Civil Laws the Rules of good and bad just and unjust honest and dishonest And what I pray your are the Rules of the Civil Law it self Even the Law of God and Nature If the Civil Laws swerve from these more authentick Laws they are Lesbian Rules What the Lawgiver commands is to be accounted good what he forbids bad This was just the garb of the Athenian Sophisters as they are described by Plato Whatsoever pleased the great Beast the Multitude they call holy and just and good And whatsoever the great Beast disliked they called evil unjust prophane But he is not yet arrived at the height of his flattery Lawful Kings make those things which they command just by commanding them At other times when he is in his right wits he talketh of sufferings and expecting their reward in Heaven And going to Christ by Martyrdome And if he had the fortitude to suffer death he should do better But I fear all this was but said in jest How should they expect their reward in Heaven if his Doctrine be true that there is no reward in Heaven Or how should they be Martyrs if his Doctrine be true that none can be Martyrs but those who conversed with Christ upon earth He addeth Before Empires were just and unjust were not Nothing could be written more false in his sence more dishonourable to God more inglorious to the humane nature That God should create Man and leave him presently without any Rules to his own ordering of himself as the Ostridg leaveth her Eggs in the sand But in truth there have been Empires in the World ever since Adam And Adam had a Law written in his heart by the finger of God before there was any Civil Law Thus they do endeavour to make goodness and justice and honesty and conscience and God himself to be empty names without any reality which signifie nothing further than they conduce to a man's interest Otherwise he would not he could not say That every action as it is invested with its circumstances is indifferent in its own nature T. H. My sixth Paradox he calls a Rapper A Rapper a Swapper and such like terms are his Lordships elegancies But let us see what this Rapper is 'T is this The Civil Laws are the Rules of Good and Evil Just and Unjust Honest and Dishonest Truly I see no other Rules they have The Scriptures themselves were made Law to us here by the Authority of the Common-wealth and are therefore part of the Law Civil If they were Laws in their own nature then were they Laws over all the World and men were obliged to obey them in America as soon as they should be shown there though without a Miracle by a Frier What is Injust but the Transgression of a Law Law therefore was before Unjust And the Law was made known by Soveraign Power before it was a Law Therefore Soveraign Power was antecedent both to Law and Injustice Who then made Injust but Soveraign Kings or Soveraign Assemblies Where is now the wonder of this Rapper That Lawful Kings make those things which they command Just by commanding them and those things which they forbid Vnjust by forbidding them Just and Unjust were surely made if the King made them not who made them else For certainly the breach of a Civil Law is a sin against God Another Calumny which he would fix upon me is That I make the King 's verbal Commands to be Laws How so Because I say the Civil Laws are nothing else but the Commands of him that hath the Soveraign Power concerning the future Actions of his Subjects What verbal Command of a King can arrive at the ears of all his Subjects which it must do ere it be a Law without the Seal of the Person of the Common-wealth which is here the Great Seal of England Who but his Lordship ever denyed that the command of England was a Law to English
men Or that any but the King had Authority to affix the Great Seal of England to any Writing And who did ever doubt to call our Laws though made in Parliament the King's Laws What was ever called a Law which the King did not assent to Because the King has granted in divers cases not to make a Law without the advice and assent of the Lords and Commons therefore when there is no Parliament in being shall the Great Seal of England stand for nothing What was more unjustly maintained during the long Parliament besides the resisting and Murdering of the King then this Doctrine of his Lordship's But the Bishop endeavoured here to make the Multitude believe I maintain That the King sinneth not though he bid hang a man for making his Apparel otherwise than he appointed or his Servant for negligent attendance And yet he knew I distinguished always between the King 's natural and politick capacity What name should I give to this wilful slander But here his Lordship enters into passion and exclaims Where are we in Europe or in Asia Gross palpable pernicious flattery poisoning of a Common-wealth poysoning the King's mind But where was his Lordship when he wrote this One would not think he was in France nor that this Doctrine was Written in the year 1658 but rather in the year 1648 in some Cabal of the King's enemies But what did put him into this fit of Choller Partly this very thing that he could not answer my reasons but chiefly that he had lost upon me so much School-learning in our controversie touching Liberty and Necessity wherein he was to blame himself for believing that the obscure and barbarous Language of School Divinity could satisfie an ingenuous Reader as well as plain and perspicuous English Do I flatter the King Why am I not rich I confess his Lordship has not flattered him here J. D. Something there is which he hath a confused glimmering of as the blind man sees men walking like Trees which he is not able to apprehend and express clearly We acknowledge that though the Laws or Commands of a Soveraign Prince be erroneous or unjust or injurious such as a Subject cannot approve for good in themselves yet he is bound to acquiesce and may not oppose or resist otherwise than by Prayers and Tears and at the most by flight We acknowledge that the Civil Laws have power to bind the Conscience of a Christian in themselves but not from themselves but from him who hath said Let every Soul be subject to the higher Powers Either they bind Christian Subjects to do their Soveraign's Commands or to suffer for the Testimony of a good Conscience We acknowledge that in doubtful Cases semper praesumitur pro Rege Lege the Soveraign and the Law are always presumed to be in the right But in plain evident cases which admit no doubt it is always better to obey God than man Blunderers whilst they think to mend one imaginary hole make two or three real ones They who derive the Authority of the Scriptures or God's Law from the Civil Laws of men are like those who seek to underprop the Heavens from falling with a Bullrush Nay they derive not only the Authority of the Scripture but even the Law of nature it self from the Civil Law The Laws of nature which need no promulgation in the condition of nature are not properly Laws but qualities which dispose men to peace and obedience When a Common-wealth is once setled then are they actually Laws and not before God help us into what times are we fallen when the immutable Laws of God and Nature are made to depend upon the mutable Laws of mortal men just as one should go about to controll the Sun by the Authority of the Clock T. H. Hitherto he never offered to mend any of the Doctrines he inveighs against but here he does He says I have a glimmering of something I was not able to apprehend and express clearly Let us see his Lordship's more clear expression We acknowledge saith he that though the Laws or Commands of a Soveraign Prince be erroneous or unjust or injurious such as a Subject cannot approve for good in themselves yet he is bound to acquiesce and may not oppose or resist otherwise than by Prayers and Tears and at the most by Flight Hence it follows clearly that when a Soveraign has made a Law though erroneous then if his Subject oppose it it is a sin Therefore I would fain know when a man has broken that Law by doing what it forbad or by refusing to do what it commanded whether he have opposed this Law or not If to break the Law be to oppose it he granteth it Therefore his Lordship has not here expressed himself so clearly as to make men understand the difference between breaking a Law and opposing it Though there be some difference between breaking of a Law and opposing those that are sent with force to see it executed yet between breaking and opposing the Law it self there is no difference Also though the Subject think the Law just as when a Thief is by Law Condemned to dye yet he may lawfully oppose the Execution not only by Prayers Tears and Flight but also as I think any way he can For though his fault were never so great yet his endeavour to save his own life is not a fault For the Law expects it and for that cause appointeth Felons to be carryed bound and encompassed with Armed men to Execution Nothing is opposite to Law but sin Nothing opposite to the Sheriff but force So that his Lordship's sight was not sharp enough to see the difference between the Law and the Officer Again We acknowledge says he that the Laws have power to bind the Conscience of a Christian in themselves but not from themselves Neither do the Scriptures bind the Conscience because they are Scriptures but because they were from God So also the Book of English Statutes bindeth our Consciences in it self but not from it self but from the Authority of the King who only in the right of God has the legislative Powers Again he saith We acknowledge that in doubtful cases the Soveraign and the Law are always presumed to be in the right If he presume they are in the right how dare he presume that the cases they determine are doubtful But saith he in evident cases which admit no doubt it is always better to obey God than man Yes and in doubtful cases also say I. But not always better to obey the inferior Pastors than the Supream Pastor which is the King But what are those cases that admit no doubt I know but very few and those are such as his Lordship was not much acquainted with J. D. But it is not worthy of my labour nor any part of my intention to pursue every shadow of a Question which he springeth It shall suffice to gather a Posie of Flowers or rather a bundle of Weeds
from sin and to exhort them by good motives both from Scripture and Reason to obey the Laws and supposeth them though under forty years old by the help they have in the University able in case the Law be not written to teach the people old and young what they ought to follow in doubtful cases of Conscience that is to say they are authorised to expound the Laws of Nature but not so as to make it a doubtful case whether the King's Laws be to be obeyed or not All they ought to do is from the King's Authority And therefore this my Doctrine is no Weed J. D. 17. He admitteth incestuous Copulations of the Heathens according to their Heathenish Laws to have been lawful Marriages Though the Scripture teach us expresly that for those abominations the Land of Canaan spued out her Inhabitants Levit. 18.28 T. H. The 17 th he hath corrupted with a false interpretation of the Text. For in that Chapter from the beginning to verse 20 are forbidden Marriages in certain degrees of kindred From verse 20 which begins with Moreover to the 28 th are forbidden Sacrificing of Children to Molech and Prophaning of God's name and Buggery with Man and Beast with this cause exprest For all these abominations have the men of the Land done which were before you and the Land is defiled That the Land spue not you out also As for Marriages within the degrees prohibited they are not referred to the abominations of the Heathen Besides for some time after Adam such Marriages were necessary J. D. 18. I say that no other Article of Faith besides this that Jesus is Christ is necessary to a Christian man for Salvation 19. Because Christ's Kingdom is not of this World therefore neither can his Ministers unless they be Kings require obedience in his name They have no right of Commanding no power to make Laws T. H. These two smell comfortably and of Scripture The contrary Doctrine smells of Ambition and encroachment of Jurisdiction or Rump of the Roman Tyranny J. D. 20. I pass by his errors about Oaths about Vows about the Resurrection about the Kingdom of Christ about the Power of the Keys Binding Loosing Excommunication c. his ignorant mistakes of meritum congrui and condigni active and passive obedience and many more for fear of being tedious to the Reader T. H. The tears of School Divinity of which number are meritum congrui meritum condigni and passive obedience are so obscure as no man living can tell what they mean so that they that use them may admit or deny their meaning as it shall serve their turns I said not that this was their meaning but that I thought it was so For no man living can tell what a School man means by his words Therefore I expounded them according to their true signification Merit ex condigno is when a thing is deserved by Pact as when I say the Labourer is worthy of his hire I mean meritum ex condigno But when a man of his own grace throweth Money among the people with an intention that what part soever of it any of them could catch he that catcheth merits it not by Pact nor by precedent Merit as a Labourer but because it was congruent to the purpose of him that cast it amongst them In all other meaning these words are but Jargon which his Lordship had learnt by rote Also passive obedience signifies nothing except it may be called passive obedience when a man refraineth himself from doing what the Law hath forbidden For in his Lordship's sense the Thief that is hang'd for stealing hath fulfilled the Law which I think is absurd J. D. His whole works are a heap of mishapen Errors and absurd Paradoxes vented with the confidence of a Jugler the brags of a Mountebank and the Authority of some Pythagoras or third Cato lately dropped down from Heaven Thus we have seen how the Hobbian Principles do destroy the Existence the Simplicity the Ubiquity the Eternity and Infiniteness of God the Doctrine of the blessed Trinity the Hypostatical Union the Kingly Sacerdotal and Prophetical Office of Christ the Being and Operation of the Holy Ghost Heaven Hell Angels Devils the Immortality of the Soul the Catholick and all National Churches the holy Scriptures holy Orders the holy Sacraments the whole frame of Religion and the Worship of God the Laws of Nature the reality of Goodness Justice Piety Honesty Conscience and all that is Sacred If his Disciples have such an implicite Faith that they can digest all these things they may feed with Ostriches T. H. He here concludes his first Chapter with bitter Reproaches to leave in his Reader as he thought a sting supposing perhaps that he will Read nothing but the beginning and end of his Book as is the custom of many men But to make him lose that petty piece of cunning I must desire of the Reader one of these two things Either that he would read with it the places of my Leviathan which he cites and see not only how he answers my arguments but also what the arguments are which he produceth against them or else that he would forbear to condemn me so much as in his thought for otherwise he is unjust The name of Bishop is of great Authority but these words are not the words of a Bishop but of a passionate School-man too fierce and unseemly in any man whatsoever Besides they are untrue Who that knows me will say I have the confidence of a Jugler or that I use to brag of any thing much less that I play the Mountebank What my works are he was no sit Judge But now he has provoked me I will say thus much of them that neither he if he had lived could nor I if I would can extinguish the light which is set up in the World by the greatest part of them and for these Doctrines which he impugneth I have few opposers but such whose Profit or whose Fame in Learning is concerned in them He accuses me first of destroying the Existence of God that is to say he would make the World believe I were an Atheist But upon what ground Because I say that God is a Spirit but Corporeal But to say that is allowed me by St. Paul that says There is a Spiritual Body and there is an Animal Body 1 Cor. 15. He that holds that there is a God and that God is really somewhat for Body is doubtlesly a real Substance is as far from being an Atheist as is possible to be But he that says God is an Incorporeal Substance no man can be sure whether he be an Atheist or not For no man living can tell whether there be any Substance at all that is not also Corporeal For neither the word Incorporeal nor Immaterial nor any word equivalent to it is to be found in Scripture or in Reason But on the contrary that the Godhead dwelleth bodily in Christ is found in Colos. 2.9
General Councils the Power of the Roman Church grew up a pace and either by the negligence or weakness of the succeeding Emperors the Pope did what he pleased in Religion There was no Doctrine which tended to the Power Ecclesiastical or to the Reverence of the Clergy the contradiction whereof was not by one Council or another made Heresie and punished arbitrarily by the Emperors with Banishment or Death And at last Kings themselves and Commonwealths unless they purged their Dominions of Hereticks were Excommunicated Interdicted and their Subjects let loose upon them by the Pope insomuch as to an ingenuous and serious Christian there was nothing so dangerous as to enquire concerning his own Salvation of the Holy Scripture the careless cold Christian was safe and the skilful Hypocrite a Saint But this is a Story so well known as I need not insist upon it any longer but proceed to the Hereticks here in England and what Punishments were ordained for them by Acts of Parliament All this while the Penal Laws against Hereticks were such as the several Princes and States in their own Dominions thought fit to enact The Edicts of the Emperors made their Punishments Capital but for the manner of the Execution left it to the Prefects of Provinces And when other Kings and States intended according to the Laws of the Roman Church to extirpate Hereticks they ordained such Punishment as they pleased The first Law that was here made for the punishments of Hereticks called Lollards and mentioned in the Statutes was in the fifth year of the Reign of Richard the Second occasioned by the Doctrine of John Wickliff and his Followers which Wickliff because no Law was yet ordained for his punishment in Parliament by the favour of John of Gaunt the King's Son during the Reign of Edward the third had escaped But in the fifth year of the next King which was Richard the Second there passed an Act of Parliament to this effect That Sheriffs and some others should have Commissions to apprehend such as were certified by the Prelates to be Preachers of Heresie their Fautors Maintainers and Abettors and to hold them in strong Prison till they should justifie themselves according to the Law of Holy Church So that hitherto there was no Law in England by which a Heretick could be put to Death or otherways punished than by imprisoning him till he was reconciled to the Church After this in the next King's Reign which was Henry the Fourth Son of John of Gaunt by whom Wickliffe had been favoured and who in his aspiring to the Crown had needed the good Will of the Bishops was made a Law in the second Year of his Reign wherein it was Enacted That every Ordinary may convene before him and imprison any person suspected of Heresie and that an obstinate Heretick shall be burnt before the People In the next King's Reign which was Henry the Fifth in his Second year was made an Act of Parliament wherein it is declared that the intent of Hereticks called Lollards was to subvert the Christian Faith the Law of God the Church and the Realm And that an Heretick convict should forfeit all his Fee-simple Lands Goods and Chattels besides the Punishment of Burning Again in the Five and Twentieth year of King Henry the Eighth it was Enacted That an Heretick convict shall abjure his Heresies and refusing so to do or relapsing shall be burnt in open place for example of others This Act was made after the putting down of the Pope's Authority And by this it appears that King Henry the Eighth intended no farther alteration in Religion than the recovering of his own Right Ecclesiastical But in the first year of his Son King Edward the sixth was made an Act by which were repealed not only this Act but also all former Acts concerning Doctrines or matters of Religion So that at this time there was no Law at all for the punishment of Hereticks Again in the Parliament of the first and second year of Queen Mary this Act of 1 Ed. 6. was not repealed but made useless by reviving the Statute of 25 Hen. 8. and freely put it in execution insomuch as it was Debated Whether or no they should proceed upon that Statute against the Lady Elizabeth the Queens Sister The Lady Elizabeth not long after by the Death of Queen Mary coming to the Crown in the fifth year of her Reign by Act of Parliament repealed in the first place all the Laws Ecclesiastical of Queen Mary with all other former Laws concerning the punishments of Hereticks nor did she enact any other punishments in their place In the second place it was Enacted That the Queen by her Letters Patents should give a Commission to the Bishops with certain other persons in her Majesties Name to execute the Power Ecclesiastical in which Commission the Commissioners were forbidden to adjudge any thing to be Heresie which was not declared to be Heresie by some of the first four General Councels But there was no mention made of General Councels but only in that branch of the Act which Authorised that Commission commonly called The High Commission nor was there in that Commission any thing concerning how Hereticks were to be punished but it was granted to them that they might declare or not declare as they pleased to be Heresie or not Heresie any of those Doctrines which had been Condemned for Heresie in the first four General Councels So that during the time that the said High Commission was in being there was no Statute by which a Heretick could be punished otherways than by the ordinary Censures of the Church nor Doctrine accounted Heresie unless the Commissioners had actually declared and published That all that which was made Heresie by those Four Councels should be Heresie also now But I never heard that any such Declaration was made either by Proclamation or by Recording it in Churches or by publick Printing as in penal Laws is necessary the breaches of it are excused by ignorance Besides if Heresie had been made Capital or otherwise civilly punishable either the Four General Councels themselves or at least the Points condemned in them ought to have been Printed or put into Parish Churches in English because without it no man could know how to beware of offending against them Some men may perhaps ask whether no body were Condemned and Burnt for Heresie during the time of the High Commission I have heard there were But they which approve such executions may peradventure know better grounds for them than I do but those grounds are very well worthy to be enquired after Lastly in the seventeenth year of the Reign of King Charles the First shortly after that the Scots had Rebelliously put down the Episcopal Government in Scotland the Presbyterians of England endeavoured the same here The King though he saw the Rebels ready to take the Field would not condescend to that but yet in hope to appease them was content to pass an