in defence of the Civil Power that must be punish'd by him whose Rights he defended like Vzza that was slain because he would needs unbidden put forth his Hand to keep the Ark from falling But what if a whole Nation should revolt from the Pope at once what effect could Excommunication have upon the Nation A. Why they should have no more Mass said at least by any of the Popes Priests Besides the Pope would have no more to do with them but cast them off and so they would be in the same Case as if a Nation should be cast off by their King and left to be governed by themselves or whom they would B. This would not be taken so much for a punishment to the People as to the King and therefore when a Pope Excommunicates a whole Nation methinks he rather Excommunicates himself than them But I pray you tell me what were the Rights that the Pope pretended to in the Kingdoms of other Princes A. First An Exemption of all Priests Friars and Monks in Criminal Causes from the Cognizance of Civil Judges Secondly Collation of Benefices on whom he pleased Native or Stranger and exaction of Tenths First Fruits and other Payments Thirdly Appeals to Rome in all Causes where the Church could pretend to be concern'd Fourthly To be the Supream Judge concerning Lawfulness of Marriage i. e. concerning the Hereditary Succession of Kings and to have the Cognisance of all Causes concerning Adultery and Fornication B. Good A Monopoly of Women A. Fifthly A Power of absolving Subjects of their Duties and of their Oaths of Fidelity to their lawful Sovereigns when the Pope should think fit for the extirpation of Heresie B. This Power of absolving Subjects of their Obedience as also that other of being Judge of Manners and Doctrine is as absolute a Sovereignty as is possible to be and consequently there must be two Kingdoms in one and the same Nation and no Man be able to know which of his Masters he must obey A. For my part I should rather obey that Master that had the Right of making Laws and of inflicting Punishments than him that pretendeth only to a Right of making Canons that is to say Rules and no Right of Co-action or otherwise punishing but by Excommunication B. But the Pope pretends also that his Canons are Laws and for punishing can there be greater than Excommunication supposing it true as the Pope saith it is that he that dies Excommunicate is damn'd Which supposition it seems you believe not else you would rather have chosen to obey the Pope that would cast you Body and Soul into Hell than the King that can only kill the Body A. You say true for it were very uncharitable in me to believe that all English men except a few Papists that have been born and called Hereticks ever since the Reformation of Religion in England should be damn'd B. But for those that die Excommunicate in the Church of England at this day do you not think them also damn'd A. Doubtless he that dies in sin without repentance is damn'd and he that is Excommunicate for disobedience to the Kings Laws either Spiritual or Temporal is Excommunicate for sin and therefore if he die Excommunicate and without desire of reconciliation he dies impenitent You see what follows but to die in disobedience to the Precepts and Doctrines of those Men that have no Authority or Jurisdiction over us is quite another Case and bringeth no such danger with it B. But what is this Heresie which the Church of Rome so cruelly persecutes as to depose Kings that do not when they are bidden turn all Hereticks out of their Dominions A. Heresie is a word which when it is used without passion signifies a private Opinion So the different Sects of the old Philosophers Academians Peripateticks Epicureans Stoicks c. were called Heresies but in the Christian Church there was in the signification of that word comprehended a sinful opposition to him that was chief Judge of Doctrines in order to the salvation of Mens Souls and consequently Heresie may be said to bear the same relation to the Power Spiritual that Rebellion doth to the Power Temporal and is suitably to be persecuted by him that will preserve a Power Spiritual and Dominion over Mens Consciences B. It would be very well because we are all of us permitted to read the Holy Scriptures and bound to make them the Rule of our Actions both publick and private that Heresie were by some Law defined and the particular Opinions set forth for which a man were to be condemned and punished as a Heretick for else not only Men of mean capacity but even the wisest and devoutest Christian may fall into Heresie without any will to oppose the Church for the Scriptures are hard and the Interpretations different of different men A. The meaning of the word Heresie is by Law declared in an Act of Parliament in the first year of Queen Elizabeth wherein it is ordain'd That the persons who had by the Queens Letters Patents the Authority Spiritual meaning the High Commission shall not have Authority to adjudge any Matter or Cause to be Heresie but only such as heretofore have been adjudged to be Heresie by the Authority of the Canonical Scriptures or by the first four General Councils or by any other General Council where the same was declared Heresie by the express and plain words of the said Canonical Scriptures or such as hereafter shall be adjudged Heresie by the High Court of Parliament of this Realm with the Assent of the Clergy in their Convocation B. It seems therefore if there arise any new error that hath not yet been declared Heresie and many such may arise it cannot be judged Heresie without a Parliament for how foul soever the error be it cannot have been declar'd Heresie neither in the Scriptures nor in the Councils because it was never before heard of and consequently there can be no error unless it fall within the compass of Blasphemy against God or Treason against the King for which a man can in Equity be punished Besides who can tell what is declared by the Scripture which every man is allowed to read and interpret to himself Nay more what Protestant either of the Laity or Clergy if every General Council can be a competent Judge of Heresie is not already condemned for divers Councils have declared a great many of our Doctrines to be Heresie and that as they pretend upon the Authority of the Scriptures A. What are those Points that the first four General Councils have declared Heresie B. The first General Council held at Nicaea declared all to be Heresie which was contrary to the Nicene Creed upon occasion of the Heresie of Arrius which was the denying the Divinity of Christ. The second General Council held at Constantinople declared Heresie the Doctrine of Macedonius which was that the Holy Ghost was created The third Council assembled at Ephesus condemned the
Doctrine of Nestorius that there were two Persons in Christ. The fourth held at Chalcedon condemned the error of Eutyches that there was but one Nature in Christ. I know of no other Points condemned in these four Councils but such as concern Church-Government or the same Doctrines taught by other Men in other words and these Councils were all called by the Emperors and by them their Decrees confirmed at the Petition of the Councils themselves A. I see by this that both the calling of the Council and the Confirmation of their Doctrine and Church-Government had no obligatory force but from the Authority of the Emperor How comes it then to pass that they take upon them now a Legislative Power and say their Canons are Laws That Text All Power is given to me in Heaven and Earth had the same force then as it hath now and conferred a Legislative Power on the Councils not only over Christian Men but over all Nations in the World B. They say no for the Power they pretend to is derived from this that when a King was converted from Gentilisme to Christianity he did by that very submission to the Bishop that converted him submit to the Bishops Government and became one of his Sheep which Right therefore he could not have over any Nation that was not Christian. A. Did Sylvester which was Pope of Rome in the time of Constantine the great converted by him tell the Emperor his new Disciple before hand that if he became a Christian he must be the Popes Subject B. I believe not for it is likely enough if he had told him so plainly or but made him suspect it he would either have been no Christian at all or but a counterfeit one A. But if he did not tell him so and that plainly it was foul play not only in a Priest but in any Christian and for this derivation of their Right from the Emperors consent it proceeds only from this that they dare not challenge a Legislative Power nor call their Canons Laws in any Kingdom in Christendome farther than the Kings make them so But in Peru when Atabalipa was King the Frier told him that Christ being King of all the World had given the disposing of all the Kingdoms therein to the Pope and that the Pope had given Peru to the Roman Emperor Charles the 5 th and requir'd Atabalipa to resign it and for refusing it seized upon his person by the Spanish Army there present and murdered him you see by this how much they claim when they have power to make it good B. When began the Popes to take this Authority upon them first A. After the Inundation of Northern People had overflowed the Western parts of the Empire and possessed themselves of Italy the People of the City of Rome submitted themselves as well in Temporals as Spirituals to their Bishop and then first was the Pope a Temporal Prince and stood no more in so great fear of the Emperors which lived far off at Constantinople In this time it was that the Pope began by pretence of his Power Spiritual to encroach upon the Temporal Rights of all other Princes of the West and so continued gaining upon them till his Power was at the highest in that 300 years or thereabout which passed between the 8 th and 11 th Century that is between the time of Pope Leo the third and Pope Innocent the third For in this time Pope Zachary the first deposed Chilperic then King of France and gave the Kingdom to one of his Subjects Pepin and Pepin took from the Lombards a great part of their Territory and gave it to the Church Shortly after the Lombards having recover'd their Estate Charles the Great retook it and gave it to the Church again and Pope Leo the third made Charles Emperor B. But what Right did the Pope then pretend for the creating of an Emperor A. He pretended the Right of being Christ's Vicar and what Christ could give his Vicar might give and you know that Christ was King of all the World B. Yes as God and so he gives all the Kingdoms of the World which nevertheless proceed from the consent of People either for fear or hope A. But this Gift of the Empire was in a more special manner in such a manner as Moses had the Government of Israel given him or rather as Joshuah had it given him to go in and out before the People as the High-Priest should direct him and so the Empire was understood to be given him on condition to be directed by the Pope for when the Pope invested him with the Regal Ornaments the People all cried out Deus dat that is to say 't is God that gives it and the Emperor was contented so to take it And from that time all or most of the Christian Kings do put into their Titles the words Dei gratia that is by the Gift of God and their Successors use still to receive the Crown and Scepter from a Bishop B. 'T is certainly a very good Custom for Kings to be put in mind by whose Gift they Reign but it cannot from that Custom be inferr'd that they receive the Kingdom by mediation of the Pope or by any other Clergy for the Popes themselves receiv'd the Papacy from the Emperor The first that ever was elected Bishop of Rome after Emperors were Christians and without the Emperors consent excused himself by Letters to the Emperor with this That the People and Clergy of Rome forced him to take it upon him and prayed the Emperor to confirm it which the Emperor did but with reprehension of their proceedings and prohibition of the like for the time to come The Emperor was Lotharius and the Pope Calixtus the first A. You see by this the Emperor never acknowledged this Gift of God was the Gift of the Pope but maintained the Popedom was the Gift of the Emperor but in process of time by the negligence of the Emperors for the greatness of Kings makes them that they cannot easily descend into the obscure and narrow Mines of an ambitious Clergy they found means to make the People believe there was a Power in the Pope and Clergy which they ought to submit unto rather than to the Commands of their own Kings whensoever it should come into controversie And to that end devised and decreed many new Articles of Faith to the diminution of the Authority of Kings and to the disjunction of them and their Subjects and to a closer adherence of their Subjects to the Church of Rome Articles either not at all found in or not well founded upon the Scriptures As first that it should not be lawful for a Priest to marry B. What influence could that have upon the Power of Kings A. Do you not see that by this the King must of necessity either want the Priesthood and therewith a great part of the Reverence due to him from the most religious part of his Subjects or
Learning there was none erected till that time thoogh it be not unlikely there might be then some that taught Philosophy Logick and other Arts in divers Monasteries the Monks having little else to do but to study After some Colledges were built to that purpose it was not long time before many more were added to them by the devotion of Princes and Bishops and other wealthy Men and the Discipline therein was confirmed by the Popes that then were and abundance of Scholars sent thither by their Friends to study as to a place from whence the way was open and easie to Preferment both in Church and Common-wealth The profit the Church of Rome expected from them and in effect receiv'd was the maintenance of the Popes Doctrine and of his Authority over Kings and their Subjects by School-Divines who striving to make good many Points of Faith incomprehensible and calling in the Philosophy of Aristotle to their assistance wrote great Books of School-Divinity which no man else nor they themselves were able to understand as any man may perceive that shall consider the Writings of Peter Lombard or Scotus or of him that wrote Commentaries upon him or of Suarez or any other School-Divine of later times which kind of Learning nevertheless hath been much admir'd by two sorts of Men otherwise prudent enough the one of which sorts were of those that were already devoted and really affectionate to the Roman Church for they believed the Doctrine before but admir'd the Arguments because they understood them not and yet found the Conclusions to their mind The other sort were negligent Men that had rather admire with others than take the pains to examine So that all sorts of People were fully resolv'd that both the Doctrine was true and the Pope's Authority no more than what was due to him B. I see that a Christian King or State how well soever provided he be of Money and Arms where the Church of Rome hath such Authority will have but a hard match of it for want of Men for their Subjects will hardly be drawn into the Field and fight with courage against their Consciences A. It is true that great Rebellions have been raised by Church-men in the Popes quarrel against Kings as in England against King John and in France against King Henry the 4 th wherein the Kings had a more considerable part on their sides than the Pope had on his and shall always have so if they have Money for there are but few whose Consciences are so tender as to refuse Money when they want it But the great mischief done to Kings upon pretence of Religion is when the Pope gives power to one King to invade another B. I wonder how King Henry the 8 th could then so utterly extinguish the Authority of the Pope in England and that without any Rebellion at home or any Invasion from abroad A. First the Priests Monks and Friars being in the heighth of their power were now for the most part grown insolent and licentious and thereby the force of their Arguments was now taken away by the scandal of their Lives which the Gentry and Men of good Education easily perceived and the Parliament consisting of such persons were therefore willing to take away their Power and generally the Common People which from a long Custom had been in love with Parliaments were not displeased therewith Secondly the Doctrine of Luther beginning a little before was now by a great many men of the greatest Judgments so well received as that there was no hope to restore the Pope to his Power by Rebellion Thirdly the Revenue of Abbies and all other Religious Houses falling hereby into the Kings Hands and by him being disposed of to the most Eminent Gentlemen in every County could not but make them do their best to confirm themselves in the possession of them Fourthly King Henry was of a Nature quick and severe in the punishing of such as should be the first to oppose his Designs Lastly as to Invasion from abroad in case the Pope had given the Kingdom to another Prince it had been in vain for England is another manner of Kingdom than Navarre Besides the French and Spanish Forces were employed at that time one against another and though they had been at leisure they would have found perhaps no better success than the Spaniards found afterwards in 1588. Nevertheless notwithstanding the Insolence Avarice and Hypocrisie of the then Clergy and notwithstanding the Doctrine of Luther if the Pope had not provoked the King by endeavouring to cross his Marriage with his second Wife his Authority might have remained in England till there had risen some other quarrel B. Did not the Bishops that then were and had taken an Oath wherein was amongst other things that they should defend and maintain the Regal Rights of St. Peter the words are Regalia Sancti Petri which nevertheless some have said are Regulas Sancti Petri that is to say St. Peter's Rules or Doctrine and that the Clergy afterward did read it being perhaps written in Short-hand by a mistake to the Pope's advantage Regalia Did not I say the Bishops oppose that Act of Parliament against the Pope and against the taking of the Oath of Supremacy A. No I do not find the Bishops did many of them oppose the King for having no power without him it had been great imprudence to provoke his anger There was besides a Controversie in those times between the Pope and the Bishops most of which did maintain that they exercised their Jurisdiction Episcopal in the Right of God as immediately as the Pope himself did exercise the same over the whole Church And because they saw that by this Act of the King in Parliament they were to hold their Power no more of the Pope and never thought of holding it of the King they were perhaps better content to let that Act of Parliament pass In the Reign of King Edward the 6 th the Doctrine of Luther had taken so great root in England that they threw out also a great many of the Popes new Articles of Faith which Queen Mary succeeding him restored again together with all that had been abolished by Henry the 8 th saving that which could not be restored the Religious Houses and the Bishops and Clergy of King Edward were partly burnt for Hereticks partly fled and partly recanted and they that fled betook themselves to those places beyond Sea where the Reformed Religion was either protected or not persecuted who after the decease of Queen Mary returned again to favour and preferment under Queen Elizabeth that restored the Religion of her Brother King Edward And so it hath continued till this day excepting the Interruption made in this late Rebellion of the Presbyterians and other Democratical Men. But though the Romish Religion were now cast out by the Law yet there were abundance of people and many of them of the Nobility that still retained the Religion of
to perform July the 11 th the Parliament sent their Propositions to the King at New-Castle which Propositions they pretended to be the only way to a setled and well grounded Peace They were brought by the Earl of Pembroke the Earl of Suffolk Sir Walter Earle Sir John Hyppesly Mr. Goodwin and Mr. Robinson whom the King asked if they had power to Treat and when they said no why they might not as well have been sent by a Trumpeter The Propositions were the same dethroning ones which they used to send and therefore the King would not assent to them Nor did the Scots swallow them at first but made some exceptions against them only it seems to make the Parliament perceive they meant not to put the King into their hands gratis And so at last the bargain was made between them and upon the payment of 200000 l. the King was put into the hands of the Commissioners which the English Parliament sent down to receive him B. What a vile Complexion has this Action compounded of feigned Religion and very Covetousness Cowardice Perjury and Treachery A. Now the War that seemed to justifie many unseemly things is ended you will see almost nothing else in these Rebels but baseness and falseness besides their folly By this time the Parliament had taken in all the rest of the Kings Garrisons whereof the last was Pendennis Castle whither Duke Hamilton had been sent Prisoner by the King B. What was done during this time in Ireland and Scotland A. In Ireland there had been a Peace made by order from his Majesty for a time which by Divisions amongst the Irish was ill kept the Popish Party the Pope's Nuntio being then there took this to be the time for delivering themselves from their subjection to the English Besides the time of the Peace was now expir'd B. How were they subject to the English more than the English to the Irish They were subject to the King of England but so also were the English to the King of Ireland A. This Distinction is somewhat too subtil for common Understandings In Scotland the Marquess of Montrosse for the King with a very few Men and miraculous Victories had over-run all Scotland where many of his Forces out of too much security were permitted to be absent for a while of which the Enemy having Intelligence suddenly came upon them and forced them to fly back into the Highlands to recruit where he began to recover strength when he was commanded by the King then in the hands of the Scots at New-Castle to disband and he departed from Scotland by Sea In the end of the same year 1646. the Parliament caused the Kings Great Seal to be broken also the King was brought to Holmeby and there kept by the Parliaments Commissioners and here was an end of that War as to England and Scotland but not to Ireland About this time also died the Earl of Essex whom the Parliament had discarded B. Now that there was peace in England and the King in prison in whom was the Sovereign Power A. The Right was certainly in the King but the Exercise was yet in no body but contended for as in a Game at Cards without fighting all the years 1647. and 1648. between the Parliament and Oliver Cromwel Lieutenant-General to Sir Thomas Fairfax You must know that when King Henry the 8 th abolished the Popes Authority here and took upon him to be the Head of the Church the Bishops as they could not resist him so neither were they discontented with it For whereas before the Pope allowed not the Bishops to claim Jurisdiction in their Diocesses Jure Divino that is of Right immediately from God but by the Gift and Authority of the Pope now that the Pope was outed they made no doubt but the Divine Right was in themselves After this the City of Geneva and divers other places beyond Sea having revolted from the Papacy set up Presbyteries for the Government of their several Churches and divers English Scholars that went beyond Sea during the persecution in the time of Queen Mary were much taken with this Government and at their return in the time of Queen Elizabeth and ever since have endeavour'd to the great trouble of the Church and Nation to set up that Government here wherein they might domineer and applaud their own Wit and Learning and these took upon them not only a Divine Right but also a Divine Inspiration and having been connived at and countenanced sometimes in their frequent preaching they introduced many strange and many pernicious Doctrines out-doing the Reformation as they pretended both of Luther and Calvin receding from the former Divinity or Church-Philosophy for Religion is another thing as much as Luther and Calvin had receded from the Pope and distracted their Auditors into a great number of Sects as Brownists Anabaptists Independents Fifth-monarchy-men Quakers and divers others all commonly called by the name of Fanaticks in so much as there was no so dangerous an Enemy to the Presbyterians as this brood of their own hatching These were Cromwel's best Cards whereof he had a very great number in the Army and some in the House whereof he himself was thought one though he were nothing certain but applying himself always to the Faction that was strongest was of a colour like it There were in the Army a great number if not the greatest part that aimed only at rapine and sharing the Lands and Goods of their Enemies and these also upon the opinion they had of Cromwel's Valor and Conduct thought they could not any way better arrive at their ends than by adhering to him Lastly in the Parliament it self though not the Major part yet a considerable number were Fanaticks enough to put in doubts and cause delay in the resolutions of the House and sometimes also by advantage of a thin House to carry a Vote in favour of Cromwel as they did upon the 26 th of July For whereas on the fourth of May precedent the Parliament had voted that the Militia of London should be in the hands of a Committee of Citizens whereof the Lord Major for the time being should be one shortly after the Independents chancing to be the major made an Ordinance by which it was put into hands more favourable to the Army The best Cards the Parliament had were the City of London and the Person of the King The General Sir Tho. Fairfax was right Presbyterian but in the hands of the Army and the Army in the hands of Cromwel but which Party should prevail depended on the playing of the Game Cromwel protested still obedience and fidelity to the Parliament but meaning nothing less bethought him and resolv'd on a way to excuse himself of all that he should do to the contrary upon the Army Therefore he and his Son-in-law Commissary-General Ireton as good at contriving as himself and at speaking and writing better contrive how to mutiny the Army against the Parliament To
the same Authority And this he saith upon this silly ground That nothing is a Command the performance whereof tendeth to our own benefit He might as well deny the Ten Commandments to be Commands because they have an advantagious promise annexed to them Do this and thou shalt live And Cursed is every one that continueth not in all the words of this Law to do them T. H. Of the Sacraments I said no more than that they are Signs or Commemorations He finds fault that I add not Seals Confirmations and that they confer grace First I would have asked him if a Seal be any thing else besides a Sign whereby to remember somewhat as that we have promised accepted acknowledged given undertaken somewhat Are not other Signs though without a Seal of force sufficient to convince me or oblige me A Writing obligatory or Release signed only with a mans name is as Obligatory as a Bond signed and sealed if it be sufficiently proved though peradventure it may require a longer Process to obtain a Sentence but his Lordship I think knew better than I do the force of Bonds and Bills yet I know this that in the Court of Heaven there is no such difference between saying signing and sealing as his Lordship seemeth here to pretend I am Baptized for a Commemoration that I have enrolled my self I take the Sacrament of the Lords Supper to Commemorate that Christ's Body was broken and his Blood shed for my redemption What is there more intimated concerning the nature of these Sacraments either in the Scripture or in the Book of Common-Prayer Have Bread and Wine and Water in their own Nature any other Quality than they had before the Consecration It is true that the Consecration gives these bodies a new Relation as being a giving and dedicating of them to God that is to say a making of them Holy not a changing of their Quality But as some silly young men returning from France affect a broken English to be thought perfect in the French language so his Lordship I think to seem a perfect understander of the unintelligible language of the Schoolmen pretends an ignorance of his Mother Tongue He talks here of Command and Counsel as if he were no English man nor knew any difference between their significations What English man when he commandeth says more than Do this yet he looks to be obeyed if obedience be due unto him But when he says Do this and thou shalt have such or such a Reward he encourages him or advises him or Bargains with him but Commands him not Oh the understanding of a Schoolman J. D. Sometimes he is for holy Orders and giveth to the Pastors of the Church the right of Ordination and Absolution and Infallibility too much for a particular Pastor or the Pastors of one particular Church It is manifest that the consecration of the chiefest Doctors in every Church and imposition of hands doth pertain to the Doctors of the same Church And it cannot be doubted of but the power of binding and loosing was given by Christ to the future Pastors after the same manner as to his present Apostles And our Saviour hath promised this infallibility in those things which are necessary to Salvation to his Apostles until the day of Judgment that is to say to the Apostles and Pastors to be Consecrated by the Apostles successively by the imposition of hands But at other times he casteth all this Meal down with his foot Christian Soveraigns are the supream Pastors and the only persons whom Christians now hear speak from God except such as God speaketh to in these dayes supernaturally What is now become of the promised infallibility And it is from the Civil Soveraign that all other Pastors derive their right of teaching preaching and all other functions pertaining to that Office and they are but his Ministers in the same manner as the Magistrates of Towns or Judges in Courts of Justice and Commanders of Armies What is now become of their Ordination Magistrates Judges and Generals need no precedent qualifications He maketh the Pastoral Authority of Soveraigns to be Jure divino of all other Pastors Jure civili He addeth neither is there any Judge of Heresie among Subjects but their own civil Soveraign Lastly the Church Excommunicateth no man but whom she Excommunicateth by the Authority of the Prince And the effect of Excommunication hath nothing in it neither of dammage in this World nor terror upon an Apostate if the Civil Power did persecute or not assist the Church And in the World to come leaves them in no worse estate than those who never believed The dammage rather redoundeth to the Church Neither is the Excommunication of a Christian Subject that obeyeth the Laws of his own Soveraign of any effect Where is now their power of binding and loosing T. H. Here his Lordship condemneth first my too much kindness to the Pastors of the Church as if I ascribed Infallibility to every particular Minister or at least to the Assembly of the Pastors of a particular Church But he mistakes me I never meant to flatter them so much I say only that the Ceremony of Consecration and Imposition of hands belongs to them and that also no otherwise than as given them by the Laws of the Common-wealth The Bishop Consecrates but the King both makes him Bishop and gives him his Authority The Head of the Church not only gives the power of Consecration Dedication and Benediction but may also exercise the Act himself if he please Solomon did it and the Book of Canons says That the King of England has all the Right that any good King of Israel had It might have added that any other King or soveraign Assembly had in their own Dominions I deny That any Pastor or any Assembly of Pastors in any particular Church or all the Churches on earth though united are Infallible Yet I say the Pastors of a Christian Church assembled are in all such points as are necessary to Salvation But about what points are necessary to Salvation he and I differ For I in the 43d chapter of my Leviathan have proved that this Article Jesus is the Christ is the unum necessarium the only Article necessary to Salvation to which his Lordship hath not offered any Objection And he it seems would have necessary to Salvation every Doctrine he himself thought so Doubtless in this Article Jesus is the Christ every Church is infallible for else it were no Church Then he says I overthrow this again by saying that Christian Soveraigns are the Supream Pastors that is Heads of their own Churches That they have their Authority Jure Divino That all other Pastors have it Jure Civili How came any Bishop to have Authority over me but by Letters Patents from the King I remember a Parliament wherein a Bishop who was both a good Preacher and a good Man was blamed for a Book he had a little before Published in maintenance
of the Jus Divinum of Bishops a thing which before the Reformation here was never allowed them by the Pope Two Jus Divinums cannot stand together in one Kingdom In the last place he mislikes that the Church should Excommunicate by Authority of the King that is to say by Authority of the Head of the Church But he tells not why He might as well mislike that the Magistrates of the Realm should execute their Offices by the Authority of the Head of the Realm His Lordship was in a great error if he thought such incroachments would add any thing to the Wealth Dignity Reverence or Continuance of his Order They are Pastors of Pastors but yet they are the Sheep of him that is on earth their soveraign Pastor and he again a Sheep of that supream Pastor which is in Heaven And if they did their pastoral Office both by Life and Doctrine as they ought to do there could never arise any dangerous Rebellion in the Land But if the people see once any ambition in their Teachers they will sooner learn that than any other Doctrine and from Ambition proceeds Rebellion J. D. It may be some of T. H. his Disciples desire to know what hopes of Heavenly joyes they have upon their Masters Principles They may hear them without any great contentment There is no mention in Scripture nor ground in reason of the Coelum Empyraeum that is the Heaven of the Blessed where the Saints shall live eternally with God And again I have not found any Text that can probably be drawn to prove any Ascention of the Saints into Heaven that is to say into any Coelum Empyraeum But he concludeth positively that Salvation shall be upon earth when God shall Raign at the coming of Christ in Jerusalem And again In short the Kingdom of God is a civil Kingdom c. called also the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of Glory All the Hobbians can hope for is to be restored to the same condition which Adam was in before his fall So saith T.H. himself From whence may be inferred that the Elect after the Resurrection shall be restored to the estate wherein Adam was before he had sinned As for the beatifical vision he defineth it to be a word unintelligible T. H. This Coelum Empyraeum for which he pretendeth so much zeal where is it in the Scripture where in the Book of Common Prayer where in the Canons where in the Homilies of the Church of England or in any part of our Religion What has a Christian to do with such Language Nor do I remember it in Aristotle Perhaps it may be in some Schoolman or Commentator on Aristotle and his Lordship makes it in English the Heaven of the Blessed as if Empyraeum signified That which belongs to the Blessed St. Austin says better that after the day of Judgment all that is not Heaven shall be Hell Then for Beatifical vision how can any man understand it that knows from the Scripture that no man ever saw or can see God Perhaps his Lordship thinks that the happiness of the Life to come is not real but a Vision As for that which I say Lev. pag. 345. I have answered to it already J. D. But considering his other Principles I do not marvel much at his extravagance in this point To what purpose should a Coelum Empyraeum or Heaven of the Blessed serve in his judgment who maketh the blessed Angels that are the Inhabitants of that happy Mansion to be either Idols of the brain that is in plain English nothing or thin subtil fluid bodies destroying the Angelical nature The universe being the aggregate of all bodies there is no real part thereof that is not also body And elsewhere Every part of the Vniverse is Body and that which is not Body is no part of the Vniverse And because the Vniverse is all that which is no part of it is nothing and consequently no where How By this Doctrine he maketh not only the Angels but God himself to be nothing Neither doth he salve it at all by supposing erroneously Angels to be corporeal Spirits and by attributing the name of incorporeal Spirit to God as being a name of more honour in whom we consider not what Attribute best expresseth his nature which is incomprehensible but what best expresseth our desire to honour him Though we be not able to comprehend perfectly what God is yet we are able perfectly to comprehend what God is not that is he is not imperfect and therefore he is not finite and consequently he is not corporeal This were a trim way to honour God indeed to honour him with a lye If this that he say here be true That every part of the Vniverse is a Body and whatsoever is not a Body is nothing Then by this Doctrine if God be not a Body God is nothing not an incorporeal Spirit but one of the Idols of the Brain a meer nothing though they think they dance under a Net and have the blind of Gods incomprehensibility between them and discovery T. H. This of Incorporeal substance he urged before and there I answered it I wonder he so often rolls the same stone He is like Sysiphus in the Poets Hell that there rolls a heavy stone up a hill which no sooner he brings to day-light then it slips down again to the bottom and serves him so perpetually For so his Lordship rolls this and other questions with much adoe till they come to the light of Scripture and then they vanish and he vexing sweating and railing goes to 't again to as little purpose as before From that I say of the Universe he infers that I make God to be nothing But infers it absurdly He might indeed have inferr'd that I make him a Corporeal but yet a pure Spirit I mean by the Universe the Aggregate of all things that have being in themselves and so do all men else And because God has a being it follows that he is either the whole Universe or part of it Nor does his Lordship go about to disprove it but only seems to wonder at it J. D. To what purpose should a Coelum Empyraeum serve in his Judgment who denyeth the immortality of the Soul The Doctrine is now and hath been a long time far otherwise namely that every man hath eternity of life by nature in as much as his Soul is immortal Who supposeth that when a man dyeth there remaineth nothing of him but his Carkase who maketh the word Soul in holy Scripture to signifie always either the Life or the Living Creature And expoundeth the casting of Body and Soul into Hell-fire to be the casting of Body and Life into Hell-fire Who maketh this Orthodox truth that the Souls of men are Substances distinct from their Bodies to be an error contracted by the contagion of the Demonology of the Greeks and a window that gives entrance to the dark Doctrine of eternal torments Who expoundeth these words
just disposition of Almighty God this Policy turned to a sin and was the utter destruction of Jeroboam and his Family It is not good jesting with edge-tools nor playing with holy things Where men make their greatest fastness many times they find most danger T. H. His Lordship either had a strange Conscience or understood not English Being at Paris when there was no Bishop nor Church in England and every man writ what he pleased I resolved when it should please God to restore the Authority Ecclesiastical to submit to that Authority in whatsoever it should determine This his Lordship construes for a temporizing and too much indifferency in Religion and says further that the last part of my words do smell of Jeroboam To the contrary I say my words were modest and such as in duty I ought to use And I profess still that whatsoever the Church of England the Church I say not every Doctor shall forbid me to say in matter of Faith I shall abstain from saying it excepting this point That Jesus Christ the Son of God dyed for my sins As for other Doctrins I think it unlawful if the Church define them for any Member of the Church to contradict them J. D. His sixth Paradox is a rapper the Civil Laws are the Rules of good and evil just and unjust honest and dishonest and therefore what the Lawgiver commands that is to be accounted good what he forbids bad And a little after before Empires were just and unjust were not as whose nature is Relative to a Command every action in its own nature is indifferent That it is just or unjust proceedeth from the right of him that commandeth Therefore lawful Kings make those things which they command Just by commanding them and those things which they forbid Vnjust by forbidding them To this add his definition of a sin that which one doth or omitteth saith or willeth contrary to the reason of the Common-wealth that is the Civil Laws Where by the Laws he doth not understand the Written Laws elected and approved by the whole Common-wealth but the verbal Commands or Mandates of him that hath the Soveraign Power as we find in many places of his Writings The Civil Laws are nothing else but the Commands of him that is endowed with Soveraign Power in the Common-wealth concerning the future actions of his Subjects And the Civil Laws are fastned to the Lips of that man who hath the Soveraign Power Where are we In Europe or in Asia Where they ascribed a Divinity to their Kings and to use his own Phrase made them Mortal Gods O King live for ever Flatterers are the common Moths of great Pallaces where Alexander's friends are more numerous than the King's friends But such gross palpable pernicious flattery as this is I did never meet with so derogatory both to piety and policy What deserved he who should do his uttermost endeavour to poyson a common Fountain whereof all the Common-wealth must drink He doth the same who poisoneth the mind of a Soveraign Prince Are the Civil Laws the Rules of good and bad just and unjust honest and dishonest And what I pray your are the Rules of the Civil Law it self Even the Law of God and Nature If the Civil Laws swerve from these more authentick Laws they are Lesbian Rules What the Lawgiver commands is to be accounted good what he forbids bad This was just the garb of the Athenian Sophisters as they are described by Plato Whatsoever pleased the great Beast the Multitude they call holy and just and good And whatsoever the great Beast disliked they called evil unjust prophane But he is not yet arrived at the height of his flattery Lawful Kings make those things which they command just by commanding them At other times when he is in his right wits he talketh of sufferings and expecting their reward in Heaven And going to Christ by Martyrdome And if he had the fortitude to suffer death he should do better But I fear all this was but said in jest How should they expect their reward in Heaven if his Doctrine be true that there is no reward in Heaven Or how should they be Martyrs if his Doctrine be true that none can be Martyrs but those who conversed with Christ upon earth He addeth Before Empires were just and unjust were not Nothing could be written more false in his sence more dishonourable to God more inglorious to the humane nature That God should create Man and leave him presently without any Rules to his own ordering of himself as the Ostridg leaveth her Eggs in the sand But in truth there have been Empires in the World ever since Adam And Adam had a Law written in his heart by the finger of God before there was any Civil Law Thus they do endeavour to make goodness and justice and honesty and conscience and God himself to be empty names without any reality which signifie nothing further than they conduce to a man's interest Otherwise he would not he could not say That every action as it is invested with its circumstances is indifferent in its own nature T. H. My sixth Paradox he calls a Rapper A Rapper a Swapper and such like terms are his Lordships elegancies But let us see what this Rapper is 'T is this The Civil Laws are the Rules of Good and Evil Just and Unjust Honest and Dishonest Truly I see no other Rules they have The Scriptures themselves were made Law to us here by the Authority of the Common-wealth and are therefore part of the Law Civil If they were Laws in their own nature then were they Laws over all the World and men were obliged to obey them in America as soon as they should be shown there though without a Miracle by a Frier What is Injust but the Transgression of a Law Law therefore was before Unjust And the Law was made known by Soveraign Power before it was a Law Therefore Soveraign Power was antecedent both to Law and Injustice Who then made Injust but Soveraign Kings or Soveraign Assemblies Where is now the wonder of this Rapper That Lawful Kings make those things which they command Just by commanding them and those things which they forbid Vnjust by forbidding them Just and Unjust were surely made if the King made them not who made them else For certainly the breach of a Civil Law is a sin against God Another Calumny which he would fix upon me is That I make the King 's verbal Commands to be Laws How so Because I say the Civil Laws are nothing else but the Commands of him that hath the Soveraign Power concerning the future Actions of his Subjects What verbal Command of a King can arrive at the ears of all his Subjects which it must do ere it be a Law without the Seal of the Person of the Common-wealth which is here the Great Seal of England Who but his Lordship ever denyed that the command of England was a Law to English
this pretence of immunity from contributing to the King but at their own pleasure for when they have laid the burthen of defending the whole Kingdom and governing it upon any person whatsoever there is very little equity he should depend on others for the means of performing it or if he do they are his Sovereign not he theirs And as for the Common Law contained in Reports they have no force but what the King gives them Besides it were more unreasonable that a corrupt or foolish Judge his unjust Sentence should by any time how long soever obtain the Authority and Force of a Law But amongst the Statute Laws there is one called Magna Charta or the Great Charter of the Liberties of English-men in which there is one Article wherein a King heretofore hath granted That no Man shall be distrained that is have his Goods taken from him otherwise than by the Law of the Land B. Is not that a sufficient ground for their purpose A. No that leaves us in the same doubt which you think it clears for where was that Law of the Land then Did they mean another Magna Charta that was made by some King more ancient yet No that Statute was made not to exempt any Man from payments to the Publick but for securing of every Man from such as abused the King's Power by surreptitious obtaining the King's Warrants to the oppressing of those against whom he had any Suit in Law but it was conducing to the ends of some rebellious Spirits in this Parliament to have it interpreted in the wrong sense and suitable enough to the understanding of the rest or most part of them to let it pass B. You make the Members of that Parliament very simple Men and yet the People chose them for the wisest of the Land A. If Craft be wisdom they were wise enough but wise as I define it is he that knows how to bring his business to pass without the assistance of knavery and ignoble shifts by the sole strength of his good contrivance A Fool may win from a better Gamester by the advantage of false Dice and packing of Cards B. According to your definition there be few wise Men now adays such Wisdom is a kind of Gallantry that few are brought up to and most think folly Fine Cloaths Great Feathers Civility towards Men that will not swallow Injuries and Injury towards them that will is the present Gallantry but when the Parliament afterwards having gotten the power into their hands levied Money for their own use what said the People to that A. What else but that it was legal and to be paid as being imposed by consent of Parliaments B. I have heard often that they ought to pay what was imposed by consent of Parliaments to the use of the King but to their own use never before I see by this it is easier to gull the Multitude than any one man amongst them for what one man that has not his natural Judgment deprav'd by accident could be so easily cozened in a matter that concerns his purse had he not been passionately carried away by the rest to change of Government or rather to a Liberty of every one to govern himself A. Judge then what kind of men such a multitude of ignorant People were like to elect for their Burgesses and Knights of Shires B. I can make no other Judgment but that they who were then elected were just such as had been elected for former Parliaments and as are like to be elected for Parliaments to come for the Common People have been and always will be ignorant of their duty to the Publick as never meditating any thing but their particular Interest in other things following their immediate Leaders which are either the Preachers or the most potent of the Gentlemen that dwell amongst them as common Soldiers for the most part follow their immediate Captains if they like them if you think the late miseries have made them wiser that will quickly be forgot and then we shall be no wiser than we were A. Why may not men be taught their duty that is the Science of just and unjust as divers other Sciences have been taught from true Principles and evident Demonstration and much more easily than any of those Preachers and Democratical Gentlemen could teach Rebellion and Treason B. But who can teach what none have learn'd Or if any man hath been so singular as to have studied the Science of Justice and Equity how can he teach it safely when it is against the Interest of those that are in possession of the Power to hurt him A. The Rules of Just and Unjust sufficiently demonstrated and from Principles evident to the meanest capacity have not been wanting and notwithstanding the obscurity of their Author have shined not only in this but also in Forreign Countries to men of good education but they are few in respect of the rest of men whereof many cannot read many though they can have no leisure and of them that have leisure the greatest part have their minds wholly employed and taken up by their private businesses or pleasures So that it is impossible that the Multitude should ever learn their duty but from the Pulpit and upon Holy-days but then and from thence it is that they learned their disobedience And therefore the Light of that Doctrine has been hitherto covered and kept under here by a cloud of Adversaries which no private man's Reputation can break through without the Authority of the Universities but out of the Universities came all those Preachers that taught the contrary The Universities have been to this Nation as the Wooden Horse was to the Trojans B. Can you tell me why and when the Universities here and in other places first began A. It seems for the time they began in the Reign of the Emperor Charles the Great before which time I doubt not but that there were many Grammar Schools for the Latin Tongue which was the natural Language of the Roman Church but for Universities that is to say Schools for the Sciences in general and especially for Divinity it is manifest that the Institution of them was recommended by the Pope's Letter to the Emperor Charles the Great and recommended farther by a Council held in his time I think at Chalon sur Saone and not long after was erected an University at Paris and the Colledge call'd Vniversity-Colledge at Oxford And so by degrees several Bishops Noble-men and Rich-men and some Kings and Queens contributing thereunto the Universities obtained at last their present splendor B. But what was the Pope's design in it A. What other design was he like to have but what you heard before the advancement of his own Authority in the Countries where the Universities were erected There they learned to dispute for him and with unintelligible distinctions to blind mens Eyes whilst they incroached upon the Right of Kings and it was an evident Argument of that Design
are sent by him Love God with all your Soul and your Neighbour as your self are words of the Scripture which are well enough understood but neither Children nor the greatest part of Men do understand why it is their Duty to do so They see not that the safety of the Common-wealth and consequently their own depends upon their doing it Every man by nature without discipline does in all his Actions look upon as far as he can see the benefit that shall redound to himself from his obedience He reads that Covetousness is the root of all evil but he thinks and sometimes finds it is the root of his Estate And so in other Cases the Scripture says one thing and they think another weighing the Commodities or Incommodities of this present life only which are in their sight never putting into the Scales the Good and Evil of the Life to come which they see not A. All this is no more than happens where the Scripture is seal'd up in Greek and Latin and the People taught the same things out of them by Preachers But they that are of a Condition and Age fit to examine the sense of what they read and that take a delight in searching out the Grounds of their Duty certainly cannot choose but by their reading of the Scriptures come to such a sense of their Duty as not only to obey the Laws themselves but also to induce others to do the same for commonly Men of Age and Quality are followed by their inferior Neighbours that look more upon the Example of those Men whom they reverence and whom they are unwilling to displease than upon Precepts and Laws B. These Men of the Condition and Age you speak of are in my opinion the unfittest of all others to be trusted with the reading of the Scriptures I know you mean such as have studied the Greek or Latin or both Tongues and that are withal such as love knowledge and consequently take delight in finding out the meaning of the most hard Texts or in thinking they have found it in case it be new and not found out by others These are therefore they that pretermitting the easie places which teach them their Duty fall to scanning only of the Mysteries of Religion such as are How it may be made out with wit that there be three that bear Rule in Heaven and those three but One How the Deity could be made Flesh How that Flesh could be really present in many places at once Where 's the Place and what the Torments of Hell and other Metaphysical Doctrines Whether the Will of Man be free or governed by the Will of God Whether Sanctity comes by Inspiration or Education By whom Christ now speaks to us Whether by the King or by the Clergy or by the Bible to every man that reads it and interprets it to himself or by a private Spirit to every private Man These and the like Points are the study of the Curious and the cause of all our late mischief and the cause that makes the plainer sort of Men whom the Scripture had taught belief in Christ Love towards God Obedience to the King and sobriety of behaviour forget it all and place their Religion in the disputable Doctrines of these your wise Men. A. I do not think these men fit to interpret the Scripture to the rest nor do I say that the rest ought to take their Interpretation for the Word of God Whatsoever is necessary for them to know is so easie as not to need Interpretation Whatsoever is more does them no good But in case any of those unnecessary Doctrines shall be authorized by the Laws of the King or other State I say it is the Duty of every Subject not to speak against them in as much as it is every man's Duty to obey Him or Them that have the Sovereign Power and the Wisdom of all such Powers to punish such as shall publish or teach their private Interpretations when they are contrary to the Law and likely to incline men to Sedition or Disputing against the Law B. They must punish then the most of those that have had their breeding in the Universities for such curious Questions in Divinity are first started in the Universities and so are all those Politick Questions concerning the Rights of Civil and Ecclesiastick Government and there they are furnished with Arguments for Liberty out of the Works of Aristotle Plato Cicero Seneca and out of the Histories of Rome and Greece for their Disputation against the necessary Power of their Sovereigns Therefore I despair of any lasting Peace amongst our selves till the Universities here shall bend and direct their Studies to the setling of it that is to the teaching of absolute Obedience to the Laws of the King and to his Publick Edicts under the Great Seal of England for I make no doubt but that solid Reason back'd with the Authority of so many Learned Men will more prevail for the keeping of us in peace within our selves than any Victory can do over the Rebels but I am afraid that 't is impossible to bring the Universities to such a compliance with the Actions of State as is necessary for the business A. Seeing the Universities have heretofore from time to time maintain'd the Authority of the Pope contrary to all Laws Divine Civil and Natural against the Right of our Kings why can they not as well when they have all manner of Laws and Equity on their side maintain the Rights of him that is both Sovereign of the Kingdom and Head of the Church B. Why then were they not in all Points for the King's Power presently after that King Henry the 8 th was in Parliament declared Head of the Church as much as they were before for the Authority of the Pope A. Because the Clergy in the Universities by whom all things there are governed and the Clergy without the Universities as well Bishops as inferior Clerks did think that the pulling down of the Pope was the setting up of them as to England in his place and made no question the greatest part of them but that their Spiritual Power did depend not upon the Authority of the King but of Christ himself derived to them by a successive Imposition of Hands from Bishop to Bishop notwithstanding they knew that this derivation passed through the Hands of Popes and Bishops whose Authority they had cast off For though they were content that the Divine Right which the Pope pretended to in England should be denied him yet they thought it not so fit to be taken from the Church of England whom they now supposed themselves to represent It seems they did not think it reasonable that a Woman or a Child or a Man that could not construe the Hebrew Greek or Latin Bible nor know perhaps the Declensions and Conjugations of Greek or Latin Nouns and Verbs should take upon him to govern so many learned Doctors in matters of Religion meaning matters
the House nevertheless hearing of it from some of his Fellow-Members may certainly not only take notice of it but also speak to it in the House of Commons but to make the King give up his Friends and Councellors to them to be put to death banishment or imprisonment for their good will to him was such a Tyranny over a King no King ever exercised over any Subject but in Cases of Treason or Murder and seldom then A. Presently hereupon began a kind of War between the Pens of the Parliament and those of the Secretaries and other able men that were with the King For upon the 15 th of December they sent to the King a Paper called A Remonstrance of the State of the Kingdom and with it a Petition both which they caused to be published In the Remonstrance they complained of certain mischievous Designs of a Malignant Party then before the beginning of the Parliament grown ripe and did set forth what means had been used for the preventing of it by the wisdom of the Parliament what rubs they had found therein what course was fit to be taken for restoring and establishing the Ancient Honour Greatness and Safety of the Crown and Nation 1 st And of these Designs the Promoters and Actors were they said Jesuited Papists 2 ly The Bishops and that part of the Clergy that cherish formality as a support of their own Ecclesiastical Tyranny and Usurpation 3 ly Councellors and Courtiers that for private ends they said had engaged themselves to farther the Interests of some Forreign Princes B. It may very well be that some of the Bishops and also some of the Court may have in pursuit of their private Interest done something indiscreetly and perhaps wickedly therefore I pray you tell me in particular what their crimes were for methinks the King should not have conniv'd at any thing against his own Supream Authority A. The Parliament were not very keen against them that were against the King they made no doubt but all they did was by the King's Command but accus'd thereof the Bishops Councellors and Courtiers as being a more mannerly way of accusing the King himself and defaming him to his Subjects For the truth is the Charge they brought against them was so general as not to be called an Accusation but Railing As first they said they nourished Questions of Prerogative and Liberty between the King and his People to the end that seeming much addicted to his Majesties Service they might get themselves into Places of greatest Trust and Power in the Kingdom B. How could this be called an Accusation in which there is no Fact for any Accusers to apply their Proofs to or their Witnesses for granting that these Questions of Prerogative had been moved by them who can prove that their end was to gain to themselves and Friends the Places of Trust and Power in the Kingdom A. A second Accusation was That they endeavoured to suppress the purity and power of Religion B. That 's Canting it is not in man's power to suppress the power of Religion A. They meant that they suppress the Doctrine of the Presbyterians that is to say the very foundation of the then Parliaments treacherous pretensions A third That they cherished Arminians Papists and Libertines by which they meant the common Protestants which meddle not with Disputes to the end they might compose a Body fit to act according to their Counsels and Resolutions A Fourth That they endeavoured to put the King upon other courses of raising Money than by the ordinary way of Parliaments Judge whether these may be properly called Accusations or not rather spiteful Reproaches of the King's Government B. Methinks this last was a very great fault for what good could there be in putting the King upon an odd course of getting Money when the Parliament was willing to supply him as far as to the security of the Kingdom or to the Honour of the King should be necessary A. But I told you before they would give him none but with a condition he should cut off the Heads of whom they pleas'd how faithfully soever they had serv'd him and if he would have sacrificed all his Friends to their Ambition yet they would have found other excuses for denying him Subsidies for they were resolv'd to take from him the Sovereign Power to themselves which they could never do without taking great care that he should have no Money at all In the next place they put into the Remonstrance as faults of them whose Counsel the King followed all those things which since the beginning of the King's Reign were by them misliked whether faults or not and whereof they were not able to judge for want of knowledge of the Causes and Motives that induced the King to do them and were known only to the King himself and such of his Privy-Council as he revealed them to B. But what were those particular pretended faults A. 1. The Dissolution of his first Parliament at Oxford 2. The Dissolution of his second Parliament being in the second year of his Reign 3. The Dissolution of his Parliament in the fourth year of his Reign 4. The fruitless Expedition against Cales 5. The Peace made with Spain whereby the Palatines Cause was deserted and left to chargeable and hopeless Treaties 6. The sending of Commissions to raise Money by way of Loan 7. Raising of Ship-Money 8. Enlargement of Forrests contrary to Magna Charta 9. The Design of engrossing all the Gunpowder into one hand and keeping it in the Tower of London 10. A Design to bring in the use of Brass Money 11. The Fines Imprisonments Stigmatizings Mutilations Whippings Pillories Gags Confinements and Banishments by Sentence in the Court of Star-Chamber 12. The displacing of Judges 13. Illegal Acts of the Council-Table 14. The Arbitrary and Illegal Power of the Earl Marshal's Court. 15. The abuses in Chancery Exchequer Chamber and Court of Wards 16. The selling of Titles of Honour of Judges and Serjeants Places and other Offices 17. The Insolence of Bishops and other Clerks in Suspensions Excommunications Deprivations and Degradations of divers painful and learned and pious Ministers B. Were there any such Ministers degraded deprived or excommunicated A. I cannot tell but I remember I have heard threatned divers painful unlearned and seditious Ministers 18. The Excess of severity of the High-Commission Court 19. The Preaching before the King against the Property of the Subject and for the Prerogative of the King above the Law and divers other petty quarrels they had to the Government which though they were laid upon this Faction yet they knew they would fall upon the King himself in the Judgment of the People to whom by printing it was communicated Again after the Dissolution of the Parliament May the 5 th 1640. they find other faults as the Dissolution it self The Imprisoning some Members of both Houses A forced Loan of Money attempted in London The Continuance of the Convocation
which is a Person indued with Authority universal to govern all Christian men on Earth no more than there is one Universal Soveraign Prince or State on Earth that hath right to govern all Mankind I deny also that the whole Clergy of a Christian Kingdom or State being assembled are the representative of that Church further than the Civil Laws permits or can lawfully assemble themselves unless by the command or by the leave of the Soveraign Civil Power I say further that the denyal of this point tendeth in England towards the taking away of the Kings Supremacy in causes Ecclesiastical But his Lordship has not here denyed any thing of mine because he has done no more but set down my words He says further that this Doctrine destroyes the Authority of all General Councils which I confess Nor hath any General Council at this day in this Kingdom the force of a Law nor ever had but by the Authority of the King J. D. Neither is he more Orthodox concerning the Holy Scriptures Hitherto that is for the Books of Moses the power of making the Scripture Canonical was in the Civil Soveraign The like he saith of the Old Testament made Canonical by Esdras And of the New Testament That it was not the Apostles which made their own Writings Canonical but every Convert made them so to himself Yet with this restriction That until the Soveraign Ruler had prescribed them they were but Counsel and Advice which whether good or bad he that was counselled might without injustice refuse to observe and being contrary to the Laws established could not without injustice observe He maketh the Primitive Christians to have been in a pretty condition Certainly the Gospel was contrary to the Laws then established But most plainly The word of the Interpreter of the Scripture is the word of God And the same is the Interpreter of the Scripture and the Soveraign Judge of all Doctrines that is the Soveraign Magistrate to whose Authority we must stand no less than to theirs who at first did commend the Scripture to us for the Canon of Faith Thus if Christian Soveraigns of different Communications do clash one with another in their interpretations or misinterpretation of Scripture as they do daily then the word of God is contradictory to it self or that is the word of God in one Common-wealth which is the word of the Devil in another Common-wealth And the same thing may be true and not true at the same time Which is the peculiar priviledge of T.H. to make Contradictories to be true together T. H. There is no doubt but by what Authority the Scripture or any other Writing is made a Law by the same Authority the Scriptures are to be interpreted or else they are made Law in vain But to obey is one thing to believe is another which distinction perhaps his Lordship never heard of To obey is to do or forbear as one is commanded and depends on the Will but to believe depends not on the Will but on the providence and guidance of our hearts that are in the hands of God Almighty Laws only required obedience Belief requires Teachers and Arguments drawn either from Reason or from some thing already believed Where there is no reason for our Belief there is no reason we should believe The reason why men believe is drawn from the Authority of those men whom we have no just cause to mistrust that is of such men to whom no profit accrues by their deceiving us and of such men as never used to lye or else from the Authority of such men whose Promises Threats and Affirmations we have seen confirmed by God with Miracles If it be not from the Kings Authority that the Scripture is Law what other Authority makes it Law Here some man being of his Lordships judgment will perhaps laugh and say 't is the Authority of God that makes them Law I grant that But my question is on what Authority they believe that God is the Author of them Here his Lordship would have been at a Nonplus and turning round would have said the Authority of the Scripture makes good that God is their Author If it be said we are to believe the Scripture upon the Authority of the Universal Church why are not the Books we call Apocrypha the Word of God as well as the rest If this Authority be in the Church of England then it is not any other than the Authority of the Head of the Church which is the King For without the Head the Church is mute the Authority therefore is in the King which is all that I contended for in this point As to the Laws of the Gentiles concerning Religion in the Primitive times of the Church I confess they were contrary to Christian Faith But none of their Laws nor Terrors nor a mans own Will are able to take away Faith though they can compel to an external obedience and though I may blame the Ethnick Princes for compelling men to speak what they thought not yet I absolve not all those that have had the Power in Christian Churches from the same fault For I believe since the time of the first four General Councels there have been more Christians burnt and killed in the Christian Church by Ecclesiastical Authority than by the Heathen Emperors Laws for Religion only without Sedition All that the Bishop does in this Argument is but a heaving at the Kings Supremacy Oh but says he if two Kings interpret a place of Scripture in contrary sences it will follow that both sences are true It does not follow For the interpretation though it be made by just Authority must not therefore always be true If the Doctrine in the one sence be necessary to Salvation then they that hold the other must dye in their sins and be Damned But if the Doctrine in neither sence be necessary to Salvation then all is well except perhaps that they will call one another Atheists and fight about it J. D. All the power vertue use and efficacy which he ascribeth to the Holy Sacraments is to be signs or commemorations As for any sealing or confirming or conferring of Grace he acknowledgeth nothing The same he saith particularly of Baptism Upon which grounds a Cardinals red Hat or a Serjeant at Arms his Mace may be called Sacraments as well as Baptism or the holy Eucharist if they be only signs and commemorations of a benefit If he except that Baptism and the Eucharist are of Divine institution But a Cardinals red Hat or a Serjeant at Arms his Mace are not He saith truly but nothing to his advantage or purpose seeing he deriveth all the Authority of the Word and Sacraments in respect of Subjects and all our obligation to them from the Authority of the Soveraign Magistrate without which these words repent and be Baptized in the name of Jesus are but Counsel no Command And so a Serjeant at Arms his Mace and Baptism proceed both from
lawful for a man to value his own life or his limbs more than his God How much is he wiser than the three Children or Daniel himself who were thrown the first into a fiery Furnace the last into the Lions Denn because they refused to comply with the Idolatrous Decree of their Soveraign Prince T. H. Here also my words are truly cited But his Lordship understood not what the word Worship signifies and yet he knew what I meant by it To think highly of God as I had defined it is to honour him But to think is internal To Worship is to signifie that Honour which we inwardly give by signs external This understood as by his Lordship it was all he says to it is but a cavil J. D. A fourth Aphorism may be this That which is said in the Scripture it is better to obey God than man hath place in the Kingdom of God by Pact and not by Nature Why Nature it self doth teach us it is better to obey God than men Neither can he say that he intended this only of obedience in the use of indifferent actions and gestures in the service of God commanded by the Common-wealth for that is to obey both God and man But if divine Law and humane Law clash one with another without doubt it is evermore better to obey God than man T. H. Here again appears his unskilfulness in reasoning Who denyes but it is alwayes and in all causes better to obey God than Man But there is no Law neither divine nor humane that ought to be taken for a Law till we know what it is and if a divine Law till we know that God hath commanded it to be kept We agree that the Scriptures are the Word of God But they are a Law by Pact that is to us who have been Baptized into the Covenant To all others it is an invitation only to their own benefit 'T is true that even nature suggesteth to us that the Law of God is to be obeyed rather than the Law of man But nature does not suggest to us that the Scripture is the Law of God much less how every Text of it ought to be interpreted But who then shall suggest this Dr. Bramhall I deny it Who then The stream of Divines Why so Am I that have the Scripture it self before my eyes obliged to venture my eternal life upon their interpretation how learned soever they pretend to be when no counter-security that they can give me will save me harmless If not the stream of Divines who then The lawful Assembly of Pastors or of Bishops But there can be no lawful Assembly in England without the Authority of the King The Scripture therefore what it is and how to be interpreted is made known unto us here by no other way than the Authority of our Soveraign Lord both in Temporals and Spirituals The Kings Majesty And where he has set forth no Interpretation there I am allowed to follow my own as well as any other man Bishop or not Bishop For my own part all that know me know also it is my opinion That the best government in Religion is by Episcopacy but in the King 's Right not in their own But my Lord of Derry not contented with this would have the utmost resolution of our Faith to be into the Doctrine of the Schools I do not think that all the Bishops be of his mind If they were I would wish them to stand in fear of that dreadful Sentence All covet all lose I must not let pass these words of his Lordship If divine Law and humane Law clash one with another without doubt it is better evermore to obey God than man Where the King is a Christian believes the Scripture and hath the Legislative power both in Church and State and maketh no Laws concerning Christian Faith or divine Worship but by the Counsel of his Bishops whom he trusteth in that behalf if the Bishops counsel him aright what clashing can there be between the divine and humane Laws For if the Civil Law be against God's Law and the Bishops make it clearly appear to the King that it clasheth with divine Law no doubt he will mend it by himself or by the advice of his Parliament for else he is no professor of Christ's Doctrine and so the clashing is at an end But if they think that every opinion they hold though obscure and unnecessary to Salvation ought presently to be Law then there will be clashings innumerable not only of Laws but also of Swords as we have found it too true by late experience But his Lordship is still at this that there ought to be for the divine Laws that is to say for the interpretation of Scripture a Legislative power in the Church distinct from that of the King which under him they enjoy already This I deny Then for clashing between the Civil Laws of Infidels with the Law of God the Apostles teach that those their Civil Laws are to be obeyed but so as to keep their Faith in Christ entirely in their hearts which is an obedience easily performed But I do not believe that Augustus Caesar or Nero was bound to make the holy Scripture Law and yet unless they did so they could not attain to eternal life J. D. His fifth conclusion may be that the sharpest and most successful Sword in any War whatsoever doth give Soveraign Power and Authority to him that hath it to approve or reject all sorts of Theological Doctrines concerning the Kingdom of God not according to their truth or falshood but according to that influence which they have upon political affairs Hear him But because this Doctrine will appear to most men a novelty I do but propound it maintaining nothing in this or any other Paradox of Religion but attending the end of that dispute of the Sword concerning the Authority not yet amongst my Country-men decided by which all sorts of Doctrine are to be approved or rejected c. For the points of Doctrine concerning the Kingdom of God have so great influence upon the Kingdom of Man as not to be determined but by them that under God have the Soveraign Power Careat successibus opto Quisquis ab eventu facta notanda putat Let him evermore want success who thinketh actions are to be judged by their events This Doctrine may be plausible to those who desire to fish in troubled Waters But it is justly hated by those which are in Authority and all those who are lovers of peace and tranquillity The last part of this conclusion smelleth rankly of Jeroboam Now shall the Kingdom return to the house of David if this people go up to do Sacrifice in the house of the Lord at Jerusalem whereupon the King took counsel and made two Calves of Gold and said unto them It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem behold thy Gods O Israel which brought thee out of the Land of Aegypt But by the
from sin and to exhort them by good motives both from Scripture and Reason to obey the Laws and supposeth them though under forty years old by the help they have in the University able in case the Law be not written to teach the people old and young what they ought to follow in doubtful cases of Conscience that is to say they are authorised to expound the Laws of Nature but not so as to make it a doubtful case whether the King's Laws be to be obeyed or not All they ought to do is from the King's Authority And therefore this my Doctrine is no Weed J. D. 17. He admitteth incestuous Copulations of the Heathens according to their Heathenish Laws to have been lawful Marriages Though the Scripture teach us expresly that for those abominations the Land of Canaan spued out her Inhabitants Levit. 18.28 T. H. The 17 th he hath corrupted with a false interpretation of the Text. For in that Chapter from the beginning to verse 20 are forbidden Marriages in certain degrees of kindred From verse 20 which begins with Moreover to the 28 th are forbidden Sacrificing of Children to Molech and Prophaning of God's name and Buggery with Man and Beast with this cause exprest For all these abominations have the men of the Land done which were before you and the Land is defiled That the Land spue not you out also As for Marriages within the degrees prohibited they are not referred to the abominations of the Heathen Besides for some time after Adam such Marriages were necessary J. D. 18. I say that no other Article of Faith besides this that Jesus is Christ is necessary to a Christian man for Salvation 19. Because Christ's Kingdom is not of this World therefore neither can his Ministers unless they be Kings require obedience in his name They have no right of Commanding no power to make Laws T. H. These two smell comfortably and of Scripture The contrary Doctrine smells of Ambition and encroachment of Jurisdiction or Rump of the Roman Tyranny J. D. 20. I pass by his errors about Oaths about Vows about the Resurrection about the Kingdom of Christ about the Power of the Keys Binding Loosing Excommunication c. his ignorant mistakes of meritum congrui and condigni active and passive obedience and many more for fear of being tedious to the Reader T. H. The tears of School Divinity of which number are meritum congrui meritum condigni and passive obedience are so obscure as no man living can tell what they mean so that they that use them may admit or deny their meaning as it shall serve their turns I said not that this was their meaning but that I thought it was so For no man living can tell what a School man means by his words Therefore I expounded them according to their true signification Merit ex condigno is when a thing is deserved by Pact as when I say the Labourer is worthy of his hire I mean meritum ex condigno But when a man of his own grace throweth Money among the people with an intention that what part soever of it any of them could catch he that catcheth merits it not by Pact nor by precedent Merit as a Labourer but because it was congruent to the purpose of him that cast it amongst them In all other meaning these words are but Jargon which his Lordship had learnt by rote Also passive obedience signifies nothing except it may be called passive obedience when a man refraineth himself from doing what the Law hath forbidden For in his Lordship's sense the Thief that is hang'd for stealing hath fulfilled the Law which I think is absurd J. D. His whole works are a heap of mishapen Errors and absurd Paradoxes vented with the confidence of a Jugler the brags of a Mountebank and the Authority of some Pythagoras or third Cato lately dropped down from Heaven Thus we have seen how the Hobbian Principles do destroy the Existence the Simplicity the Ubiquity the Eternity and Infiniteness of God the Doctrine of the blessed Trinity the Hypostatical Union the Kingly Sacerdotal and Prophetical Office of Christ the Being and Operation of the Holy Ghost Heaven Hell Angels Devils the Immortality of the Soul the Catholick and all National Churches the holy Scriptures holy Orders the holy Sacraments the whole frame of Religion and the Worship of God the Laws of Nature the reality of Goodness Justice Piety Honesty Conscience and all that is Sacred If his Disciples have such an implicite Faith that they can digest all these things they may feed with Ostriches T. H. He here concludes his first Chapter with bitter Reproaches to leave in his Reader as he thought a sting supposing perhaps that he will Read nothing but the beginning and end of his Book as is the custom of many men But to make him lose that petty piece of cunning I must desire of the Reader one of these two things Either that he would read with it the places of my Leviathan which he cites and see not only how he answers my arguments but also what the arguments are which he produceth against them or else that he would forbear to condemn me so much as in his thought for otherwise he is unjust The name of Bishop is of great Authority but these words are not the words of a Bishop but of a passionate School-man too fierce and unseemly in any man whatsoever Besides they are untrue Who that knows me will say I have the confidence of a Jugler or that I use to brag of any thing much less that I play the Mountebank What my works are he was no sit Judge But now he has provoked me I will say thus much of them that neither he if he had lived could nor I if I would can extinguish the light which is set up in the World by the greatest part of them and for these Doctrines which he impugneth I have few opposers but such whose Profit or whose Fame in Learning is concerned in them He accuses me first of destroying the Existence of God that is to say he would make the World believe I were an Atheist But upon what ground Because I say that God is a Spirit but Corporeal But to say that is allowed me by St. Paul that says There is a Spiritual Body and there is an Animal Body 1 Cor. 15. He that holds that there is a God and that God is really somewhat for Body is doubtlesly a real Substance is as far from being an Atheist as is possible to be But he that says God is an Incorporeal Substance no man can be sure whether he be an Atheist or not For no man living can tell whether there be any Substance at all that is not also Corporeal For neither the word Incorporeal nor Immaterial nor any word equivalent to it is to be found in Scripture or in Reason But on the contrary that the Godhead dwelleth bodily in Christ is found in Colos. 2.9