poore stuffe that were your cloake doubled with no better lyninge you would feele the winter could noe lesse then if your cloake were simple but lett vs see peraduenture you haue better stuffe behynde PILK That way which Christ and his Apostles tooke to conuince heretikes is a full and direct way but they conuinced them by scripture only The Saduces that were heretikes amongst the Iewes denyinge the resurrection werethus by Christ putt to silence so were the false Apostles that vrged Circumsion by the councell at Hierusalem and thus Apollo confuted the Iewes sheweinge by the scriptures that Iesus was Christe CHAMP These examples of Christe and the Apostles doe clearlie conuince your affirmatiue wherein is our issue to be false For otherwise all these that hearde theÌ„ should haue been conuerted from theire errours which they were not And assuredlie if you take those places of scripture vsed by our Sauiour Christe and the Apostles to be of themselues conuincinge abstractinge from the authoritie of those that vsed theÌ„ you will conuince your selfe to be a madde man and not a doctor of diuinitie The way therfore that our Sauiour Christe and the Apostles then vsed and which all the Doctors of gods churche haue euer since exercised to conuince heretikes by scripture is doubtles most conuenient and good which is not in controuersie betweene you and me but onlie whether it be such as by noe false interpretation it may be auoyded deluded or frustrated of the effect which these verie examples brought by you and the experience of all times doe demoÌ„strate to be true against you And this might fullie suffice for that which you add but least you may complaine of your wordes concealed I will sett them downe PILK Lastlie the fathers thus taught that heretickes might be conuinced solelie by the scriptures Take from the heretikes their heathenishe learninge that by scriptures onlie they must prooue theire opinions they cannot stande saith Tertullian See howe nere vnto danger they be that refuse to exercise themselues in scripture for of them onlie the iudgment of this triall must be knowne CHAMP Howe impertinent alwayes you are you shoulde prooue that heretikes may be conuinced by scriptures onlie and you bringe Tertullian to prooue that heretikes cannot prooue theire errouis out of scriptures speakinge of one particular heresie against the resurrectio which article of the resurrectioÌ„ being not to be prooued by naturall discourse but out of scripture onlie therefore those heretickes that neglect to reade them were in daunger to continue in theire errour But if you make anie esteeme of Tertullian his iudgment in this matter see his wordes cited a litle before and iudge your selfe whether he fauour your affirmatiue or my negatiue more PILK Athanasins writinge to Serapion against thâ—se heretikes that taught the holy ghost to be a creature chargeth him to learne onlie these thinges that are in the scriptures For the documents contayned therein aboute this pointe are of theÌ„selues sufficient and doe satisfie S. Aug Chargeth the Donatists to prooue theire churche onlie by the canonicall scriptures and remouinge all other thinges to demonstrate theire churche if they were able not in the wordes and rumors of Affricanes not in the councelles of the Bishops not in the letters of anie disputers not in signes and lyinge miracles because we are forewarned fore-armed against these thinges by the worde of God but in the prescripte of the lawe the predictions of the prophetts in the songes of the psalmes in the voyce of the Shephearde himselfe in the Sermons and labours of the Euangelistes that is in all the canonicall authorities of the holy booke Innocent i. bishoppe of Rome saith that by the sole testimonie of holy scriptures the heresie of Pelagius might be refuted The testimonie of the fathers are infinite in this kinde which to auoyde prolixitie I passe ouer and conclude with that charge of Constantine to the fathers of the Nicene councell where Arrianisine receiued its deathes wounde to satisfie the sheepishe obiection of seelie Legat the bookes of the Euangelists and the Apostles together with oracles of the auncient prophets doe plainlie teach vs what we are to thinke of diuine thinges or as Bellarmine readeth it of the nature of God Therefore layinge a side all contention let vs out of the diuine inspired scriptures take the resolution of these thinges that are in question CHAMP Manie wordes nothinge to the purpose Which of all these testimonies be they trulie related by you which I list not examine because they are nothinge to the purpose or of those infinite others which you more prudentlie omitte then you haue related these say that the heretikes may be so conuinced by onlie scripture that they cannot delude them by anie false interpretation which is our issue as you knowe The charge of Constantine as you ridiculouslie terme it doth sufficientlie euict my cause against you so wiselie you pleade for your selfe and so solidelie you satisfie the obiection of seelie Legat which you esteeminge sheepishe shewe your selfe to be more then a sheepe in not soluinge it for which of all the testimonies out of the bookes of the Euangelists and Apostles or the oracles of the auncient prophets did so conuince the Arriaus that they had not some answere for it not one surelie Therefore all these wordes of yours containe nothinge but an argument of your wilfull obstinacie against an euident truth And therefore to conclude my defence in this issue I will aske you whether you are conuinced of the real persence by these wordes hoc est corpus meum or of the power to remitt sinnes by these quorum remiseritis â—eâ—cata remittuntur eâ—s or of the infallibilitie of the churche by these quae est coâ—umna firmamentum veritatis to omitte the rest if you say you are not conuinced as by your profession I coniecture you will say then I will further aske you what more cleare testimonies of scripture you canne bringe for anie one article of our faith and because I knowe you cannot bringe anie more direct or pregnant I therefore chalenge coniure you euen by the iudgment of your patron of Canterbury whose arbitrement I doe not refuse in this cause either to confesse your selfe conuinced in these points of Catholicke doctrine or to confesse that heretickes cannot be conuinced by onlie scriptures and so shall I gaine mine issue against you Which beinge euicted the note of the Manual remaineth entire and vntouched notwithstandinge all your tedious and prolixe wranglinge against it MANVALL SECTIO 3. Secondlie that thoughe the protestants may alleage texts of holy scripture for the proofe of some poinctes of theire doctrine yett that alone is not sufficient to make it true both because the same poinctes are prooued false by other places of scripture and also for that all heretickes haue euer brought scripture for theire heresie and none more apparant or frequent then the damned and
expressed in the holy scripture Or it is sufficient beinge lefte in the hands of the church to expound and interprete it but it is not sufficient for euerie one to picke his faith and beleefe out of And consequentlie another rule to witt the churches authoritie in vnderstandinge and interpretinge the scriptures is necessarie as the same father teacheth in these expresse wordes Some man may peraduenture aske for asmuch as the Canon of the scriptures is persect and in all pointes verie sufficient in it selfe what neede is there to ioyne thereunto the authoritie of the Ecclesiasticall vnderstandinge for this cause surelie for that all take not the holy scriptures in the same sence because of the deepnes thereof but the sayinges thereof some interprete one way and some another so that there may almoste as manie sences be picked out of it as there be men For Nouatian doth expounde it one way and Sabellius another way otherwise Arrius Eunomius Macedonius otherwayes Photinus Apollinaris Priscillianus otherwayes Iouinian Pelagius Celestus lastlie otherwayes Victorius Thus farr he who as you see expresselie admitteth as necessarie the rule of Ecclesiasticall authoritie besides the scriptures which is that we contend aboute PILK This clearelie is S. Aug. doctrine and the rest of the fathers not your crooked inference that the authority of the churche is a more vniuersall and more auncient rule then the scriptures for where hath he anie word to this purpose I woulde not haue beleeued the gospel except the authoritie of the churche had moued me are too weake to inserr any such like conclusion thoughe we admitte them in your corrupt translation For it is plaine he speaketh not these wordes of the present tyme when he was a Bishoppe as you reade them but of the tyme past when he was a Manichy Beinge a Catholicke a Bishoppe when he writte that booke he had farr other motiues to beleeue the Gospell then the authority of the church which here he alone nameth Take one place for a thousande I take my conscience to witnes Honoratus and God that dwelleth in pure myndes that I thinke nothinge more wise chaste religious then all these scriptures which the catholicke churche retayneth vnder the name of the olde and new testament I knowe thou wounderest but I cannot dâ—ssemble I was otherwise persuaded Howsoeuer then beinge an hereticke he thought of the scriptures yett nowe become a catholicke he beleeued them for that prudence chastitie pietie which he founde in them CHAMP Nowe lett vs see howe you will quitte your selfe of the authority of S. Aug sett downe in the Manuall you say it is too weake to serue our turne because he spake not of the present tyme when he was Byshoppe and wrote that booke but when he was a Manichie A poore and silie shifte God wotte lett his owne wordes witnes what his meaning is Ego EuaÌ„gelio non crederem nisi me Ecclesi 〈…〉 s coÌ„moueret I woulde not beleeue the Gospell but that the churches authority did moue me He saith not noÌ„ credidissem nisi commoâ—isset I had not beleeued had not the authoritie moued me as you corruptlie translate or if I doe produce your coppie for myne hath crederem commoueret which if you will translate had beleeued and had moued you shall be putt to your Accidence againe But beit that he spake of himselfe as being a Manichie which is as true as that he was a Manichie when he wrote this this is so far from fauoringe your cause that it maketh it much worse For if the churches authoritie had force to moue an hereticke to beleeue the gospell what man not depriued of common sence will denie but it hath at least the like force with a catholike But you say that S. Aug beinge a catholike had other motiues to beleeue the scriptures then the authoritie of the churche beit so what will you inferre thereof for your purpose or against me nothinge att all yea the testimonie alleaged by you out of him doth sufficiently witnes that the authority of the church did still moue him to beleeue the scriptures seeing he restraineth himselfe to those scriptures which the catholike churche receiueth and retayneth PILK Againe if by the churche you meane the present church and by the present church her rulers and guides as your consorts vsuallie doe then is it most absurde to thinke that S. August and the rest of the Bishoppes of his tyme beleeued the gospell for the authoritie of the churche for that had been for theire owne authoritie and so they had beleeued the gospell for themselues CHAMP If you hadd but one dramme of good Logicke you could not but haue seene your argument to haue been most idle and not beseeminge a doctor of diuinitie For no nouice in logicke but knoweth that an argument taken from all the partes together or collectiue to euerie one in seuerall or particular concludeth nothinge affirmatiuelie Such an one is yours beinge this is substance S. Aug. and the rest of the bishoppes beleeue the Gospell for the authoritie of the present churche but S. Aug. and the rest of the Bishoppes are the present churche ergo they beleeue the Gospell for themselues Or if you doe not yett see your owne seelines in this argument compare it with this and peraduenture you will espie it Richarde Pilkinton and the rest of the ministers of the churche of Englande beleeue the 39. articles to be good and lawfull for the authoritie of the churche of Englande But Richarde Pilkinton and the rest of the ministers are the churche of Englande ergo they beleeue the 39. articles for themselues PILK But if diuers papists be not deceiued S. Aug. meaneth not the present churche but the churche which was in the Apostles tyme that sawe Christs miracles and heard his preachinge and so this speach of S. August helpeth you nothinge excepte you canne prooue that the present churche hath the same authoritie with the Apostles which your owne Driedo flathe denieth Ecclesia primitiua propter collegium Apostolorum ad tradendam nouam nostrae fidei Doctrinam maioris erat gratiae maiorisque authoritatis quam Ecclesia quae nunc est Accordinge to the Doctrine of S. August and Hierome CHAMP Thoughe S. Aug. shoulde meane the churche in the Apostles tyme excludinge the present churche which is false yett woulde this ouerthrowe your cause For whence coulde he receiue the testimonie of that churche but by authoritie of the churches present and precedent And yett this serueth sufficientlie my turne to prooue some other rule of beleefe besides and before the scriptures which is our controuersie here That which you alleage out of our Driedo doth not prooue the present churche to be lesse infallible in her iudgmeÌ„t in matters of faith then the churche in the Apostles tyme neither doth anie catholicke say so For seinge it is gouerned by the same spirit of truth which was promised shoulde remaine with her for euer shee cannot be
more subiect to errour nowe then shee was at that tyme. Therfore that which Driedo saith is that the primatiue churche by reason of the colledge of the Apostles had power to deliuer newe doctrine of faith which the succedinge church hath not but hath infallible authoritie to teache that faith which shee receaued of the Apostles And this you might easilie haue seene to haue been Driedoes Doctrine if you had taken but anie ordinarie heede to his wordes PILK Neuertheles to passe by this to graunte that S. Augustin a Catholicke and a Bishoppe woulde not beleeue the Gospell but that the authoritie of the churche moued him is euerie motiue to beleeue a rule of faith Nothinge lesse For the rule is that whereunto faith is lastlie resolued which is not into the authoritie of the churche as your best diuines teach but into the scriptures CHAMP You might well haue past by all this indeede and also that which followeth had you not rather chosen to fil your paper with your impertinencies to the publishinge of your owne small iudgement If you take the rule of â—aith so strictlie as it contayneth onlie that whereunto faith is lastlie resolued you will make onlie God reuelinge his verities to be the rule of faith and then you must exclude not onlie the churche but the scriptures also But if you take it for a true ground of beleefe then that testimonie which so moueth to faith as it ingendreth faith in vs may trulie be sayde to be a rule of faith such a motiue S. Aug saith the churche is PILK And there vppon Cameracensis speakinge of this place of S. Aug saith that it proueth not that he beleeued the gospell thoroughe the churches authoritie as by a Theologicall principle whereby the gospell might be prooued true but onlie as by a cause mouinge him to creditt it as if he shoulde say I woulde not beleeue the gospell vnles the holynes of the churche or Christes miracles did moue me In which sayinge thoughe some cause of his beleeuinge be assigned yet no former principle is touched whose creditt might be the cause why the gospell shoulde be beleeued CHAMP It appeareth well you vnderstande not what Cameracensis saith or else that you care not what you say so that you say somethinge He saith the scriptures are not prooued by the authority of the churche as by a Theologicall principle or argument ab intrinseco but as a motiue from authority or ab extrinseco which is that all men say and which I only desire to prooue by S. Augustines testimonie For if the church be a motiue to beleeue the scriptures it must necessarilie be before the scriptures and consequentlie be a more vniuersall rule cause or motiue of faith and beleefe then the scriptures PILK Bellarmine saith that S. Aug. speaketh these wordes of the authoritie of the churche as of a cause propoundinge what is to be beleeued and not of the foundation of faith But the proposition of the churche is not the rule and resolution of faith but onlie a condition requisite of beleeuinge as Valent. teacheth in 22. tom 3. de obiecto fidei CHAMP It is a most irkesome and importunate thinge to haue to doe with with an ignorant aduersarie that knoweth not what he shoulde either prooue or denie Such an one you shewe your selfe to be For if you take from the scripture which you trulie teache to be a rule of our faith the authoritie to propose manifest and testify articles of beleefe see howe you will make it a rule of faith Seeinge therefore you geue to the churche these thinges without which the scriptures are not a rule of faith why should you deny it to be also a rule of faith But the churche you say is not the foundation or resolution of faith I speake in your owne phrase thoughe improperlie that you may vnderstande and therfore is it not anie rule thereof If this argument conclude anie thinge it will also prooue the scriptures to be noe rule of faith For it is neither foundation nor resolution of faith if you vnderstande the first and chiefe foundation or last resolution as I tould you before vnles you will make it to be God himselfe But if you take foundation for that which doth grounde our faith in a certaine and sure kinde of infallible testimonie in which sence al men speake that knowe what they speake theÌ„ are both the scriptures and the churche also foundations and groundes of our faith PILK And surelie if S. Aug had meant that the authoritie of the churche had beene this rule which is your inference he had excluded all other rules For he that saith I would not beleeue excepte the authoritie of the churche moued me establisheth one cause remoueth the rest But this none of you dare accorde vnto is as farr from S. Aug. meaninge as your next wordes are from truth If therefore the authoritie of the churche be a sufficient motiue for a motiue it is which none of vs euer denyed but that it is a sufficient motiue neither canne you prooue nor yett S. August anie where auoucheth CHAMP S. Aug. wordes which are to be beleeued before your bare negation are most cleare that without the testimonie or authoritie of the churche he hadd not beleeued the Gospell and consequentlie that the churche was cause rule and motiue of his beleefe not in that degree that God is the rule or foundation of our faith for so we shoulde make S Aug. as sencelesse as Mr. Pilkinton but in the like kinde or degree that the scriptures are but yett before the scriptures because he beleeued them for the churches authoritie And therefore you see S. Aug. to say that which the Manuall saith that there is some other rule of faith before and more vniuersall then the scriptures seeinge that for it and by it the scriptures are beleeued MANVALL SECTIO 8. The second thinge to be noted is that they which beleeue nothinge but that which is prooued by scripture are euidentlie conuinced to beleeue nothinge at all For they that cannott beleeue that there is an holy scripture or what bookes be holy scripture cannott beleeue anie thinge because it is prooued by scripture for it is euident that before they beleeue anie thinge because it is prooued by scripture they must first beleeue that there is a holy scripture and what bookes are scripture But they that beleeue not anie thinge but that which is prooued by scripture cannot beleeue that there is a scripture nor what bookes are holy scripture For neither of these two canne be prooued by holy scripture Therefore they that beleeue not anie thinge but that which is prooued by scripture cannott beleeue anie thinge att all This argument is a playne demonstration and compelleth the protestants either to confesse that they haue noe faith att all or to acknowledge this their position to witt that nothinge ought or can rightlie be beleeued but that which may be prooued