him in their owne natural and Mother tounge and That watchinges Praiers and Common Psalmodie was in estimation in iūdrie countries and That Christe is nowe the voice of the whole world Compare I say these allegations with the Authorities of D. Harding and thou shalt synde that the oddes is so greate that in these of M. Iewels there is no Testimonye or Reason at all for Publike Seruice Yet if this shal not seeme so to his Fauorers and if they wil needes defende it that M. Iewel hath spoken like a Greate Clerke to no litle purpose maie it please them to intreate him to satisfie vs a litle more y ◠we may vnderstand but of our owne Countrie to troble him with no other when the Englisshe Seruice ceased and when the Latine began And if he shal neuer be able to bring any Token or Argument that euer it was in any other Tounge then Latine Reasonable sauing of late in King Edward the vj. dayes can it with any conscience be required of a Catholike to forsake that Order of which the Aduersary with all his Serche or Curiositie can geue no other begynninge but from the founders of our Christian faithe in England Or will he enforce vs to subscribe to his newly inuented manner of Seruice which neither we nor he did euer Reade or heare that it was vsed in any tyme these fiuetene hundred yeres All other Argumentes maye be lette passe This one of Tradition beinge so auaileable and sufficient Traditiō that excepte we would of set purpose and againste all conscience folow new deuises and inuentions we ought not to forsake the Auncient and receaued Order in Seruice And therefore to the ouerthrowing of this third Article and strieng of a faithfull and Catholike harte let it be answered to all busie peekers of quarels about other mens right I holde the Latine Seruice by Tradition I beleue it came frome the first planters of the faith in our countrie If I he deceaued tell me frome whome els And whē And how I receaued it And shew by whome when And how the Englishe Seruice was firste receaued and afterwardes how it decaied And if thou canst not in these two poyntes neither speake againste the firste nor shewe for the second hold thy peace then like a wise man and blame not them which holde aduisedly the Latine Seruice because they haue receaued it And will not Yeld rasshly to y e chainging of it into Englishe because no Example maketh for it The fourthe Article ₠Whether the Bisshope of Rome was within six hundred yeres after Christe called an Vniuersall Bisshope and head of the Church BY what name foeuer the B. of Rome was then called if it be plainly proued that his Supreme power and Authoritie ouer the whole Churche was then acknowledged and cōfessed there is no more to be required or sought for in this Article Is not this true And shall not euery quiet reasonable man be contented herewithal Yes verely Except we would be brought to that foly we muste not passe vppon the thinges themselues but seeke only after the names of them And discredit the Truth of the matter for lacke of finding the worde whiche betokeneth it Will it please then M. Iewel to be contented and answered if we proue to him the Popes Supreme Authoritie ouer the Church though we alleage not the very termes of Vniuersal Bisshope or head which he asketh for I would some indifferēt man would perswade with him A reasonable requesto to remit somewhat of y e rigor of his and extreme hard dealing that if the Thinge it selfe be found the Terme of it to seekinge yet he obey the approued Authoritie and confound not al order for lacke of significant wordes to expresse it by Yet he shall haue Termes significāt enough as Principalitie Primacie Chiefe Rule and such others as the Fathers vse in speakinge of the See of Rome Mary for those two which he requireth he must not be to hasty vpon vs consideringe that it is not the word that maketh a Thinge but the wil of God or act of man And againe that one Thinge may by sundrie wayes of like force be expressed y ◠if some one lacke some other may supply it Lyke as therefore in cominge to some one place that hath many wayes leadinge thither he should lacke either his sight or his reason which would wrangle and contend with me that I am not there because I knowe not or folowed not that way which he would haue taken yet I chose I trow a good way enough which brought me directly to my purpose So in y e seeking out of the Truth which is in the thinges themselues vnto which we are conducted many wayes by varietie and copie of wordes he that could not deny it me but that I haue the Matter I sought for and yet would aske me where is the speciall word Head of the Church which signifieth the Popes Supremicie doth by al reason declare not that I am far from my purpose but that him selfe is desirous to peeke quarels and seeke digressions Let vs be iudged then with tolerable indifferēcie Hath not D. Hardinge folowed a reasonable and allowable order which in this question of the Supremicie proueth the Thinge it selfe and counteth it of no greate importance to seeke for the speciall wordes which M. Iew. requireth Is not so much enough for a quiet Reader And y e end beinge attained vnto haue we to goe any further I could proue no. But I do not mistrust so little Iudgment or Conscience to be in honest natures And first therfore I desire this wel to be remēbred noted y t y e heretike hath no vātage against y e Catholike for his goinge to y e matter and passinge ouer Names Titles wordes Secondly it foloweth to be marked well that D. Harding not because y e question it selfe required it of necessitie but for that he would satisfie to the vttermost M. Iewels or some others curiositie he sheweth out of good authoritie the very selfe names which M. Iewel requireth Vniuersall bishop Head of the Church to haue ben spoken of the B. of Rome within the compasse of the six hundred yeares after Christ But marke it I pray thee good Reader perfitely that by the conferringe of Person with person Behauior with behauior Chalenger with defender and Aunswer with Argument the triflinge or earnest dealinge may the better appeare the more nigh these contraries be in sight the one of the other Now then in the third place consider how vnreasonably M. Iew. craketh in this Article against him which by all right was not bound to Names and Titles prouinge the Thinges them selues and which afterward brought furth the very Names so much asked for least perchaunce by M. Iewels triumphinge there vpon many should certainely beleue we had lost y e victorie Whosoeuer therefore wil haue some examples where a great shew is made of
nothinge to beware in him selfe of y t foly let him marke these that folowe The chief Authoritie beinge acknowleged and confessed â—at fo 101. whether theÌ„ he were called by either of those names that you deny or no it is not of greate importance M. Hardinge seemeth in part willingly to yeeld Iew. 220 Againe It was as easy a matter for Christ to geue Peter the Power and Title bothe togeather as to geue him the power alone without the Title Here I can not chuse but answer some what though for desire of shortnesse I haue and must let many thinges passe which might be staied vpon Who doubteth but Christ in deede might haue geuen the Title which M. Iew. findeth lackinge togeather with the power and Authoritie ouer the Church yet for so much as he hath not done it it becometh not vs to find any imperfection in his doinges but to honor them with all Reuerence though we see no reason for them or with all humilitie to thinke vpon them whether good causes may be brought furth and alleged for them or no. And truly concerninge this matter of which we speake we may rightly iudge y t because weyght and worthinesse is in the Thinges them selues therfore he gaue the power to S. Peter As for Names and Titles because they are so easely geueu as appereth by styles of Noble men and Princes his maiestie was not ouer curiouse in them Yet he left not S. Peter without a name of honor also sayinge Thou shalt be called Cephas Io. 1. which is interpreted Petrus a rocke or Stone Which Title duly considered is of more weight and worthinesse than either the name of Head Rector Gouernor Prince Christ gaue S. Peter a Title of dignitie and power or vniuersal Bishope Which as they signifie a Preeminence aboue others so do they not warrant a Continuance a Stedfastnes a sure Ground to buyld vpon and a Principall and Chiefe Stone in the house of God as Cephas or Petros which are to say a Rocke doe for our Sauyour expressed it in the hearinge of the twelue and sayed to S. Peter only and specially Thou art Peter or a Rocke Mat. 16. and vpoÌ„ this rocke will I buyld my Church and the gates of hell shal not preuaile against it And to thee will I geue the keyes of the kingdome of heauens and what thinge soeuer thou byndest vpon Earth shal be bound in heaueÌ„ what thinge soeuer thou loosest vpon Earth shal be loosed in Heauen Mary this Title of Vniuersall bishope or Head of the Church he gaue not him in plaine Termes But what of that He instituted effectuall Sacramentes yet he neuer called any of them by the name of Sacrament He taught men to beleue in the Trinitie yet the word is not found in all scripture The prophet Dauid calleth the Apostles Princes of all the Earth Psal 44. yet Christ which gaue them Authoritie ouer al sayeth no more but Goe and Preach the Gospell to al creatures Mar. 16. And againe I send you furth as sheepe emong wolues Mat. 10. Againe your master is one Christ and al ye are Brethern Mat. 23. and neuer called them Princes How then Doth M. Iew. find an imperfection in Christes doinges And thinketh he secretly in his hart that a Power is not well geuen without a Title And that if him selfe might haue ordered the matter To anger or troble the Catholikes M. Iewel makâ—th obiections against God himselfe the Name and Office should haue ben geuen both together from wheÌ„ce cometh this that a wretched and a vile creature hath to saye any thinge against his Maker The Catholike Church is coÌ„teÌ„ned The iudgement of y e highest Bishope in the earth is condeÌ„ned to hinder y â— Pope And aÌ„ger y â— Catholikes he is not afraied to dally with Almightie God him selfe And to aske of vs whether it was not an easy matter for him to geue Peter the Power and Title al together That when we shall confesse the Title was not geuen Either foolishe or blasphemous he may infer Ergo neither the Power Which argument If your selfe M. Iewel thinke to be naught what a wyse man are you so trimly to set it furth If it be good what a Miserable felow are you which dare so to speake of him that is Alwyse and Almightie As though it should not be agreable to geue a Power and not the Title Confesse that you haue ouershot your selfe in makinge so much of a weake reason Or looke to be Answeered accordingly when him selfe shal come in Iudgement for such purpose But let vs goe forward To this Church of Rome D. Har. Fo. 106. it is necessarie al that be faithfull to repaire and come togeather for the mightier Principalitie of the same Iren. lib. 3. cap. 3. Againe Andrew reâ—eiued not the Primacie but Peter Amb. 2. Cor. 12. Againe The Primacie or Principalitie of the Apostolike Chayre Aug. epi. 162. hath euermore bene in force in the Romaine Church Now marke what M. Iew. concludeth He answereth after his maner vnto euery one but he triumpheth not therein but in this sayinge M. Hardinge trippinge as he sayeth so nicely ouer the Doctors hath not yet once towched Iew. 254 Here begynneth the he and 〈◊〉 the thingethat was looked for and that he hath only and with such affiance take in hand For notwithstanding a great PoÌ„pe of wordes and the Names of manie holie Fathers yet hath he not hitherto shewed that the Bishope of Rome within the space oâ— six hundred yeares after Christ was euer called the Vniuersall bishope Or the head of the vniuersall Church VVhich thinge iâ— he could haue shewed I beleue he wold not so lightlie haue tripte it ouer See how ernest he is vpon the name of Vniuersall Bishop And how sore him selfe stumbleth at one simple word Tripping And how much he craketh before the end that the word he looketh for is not yet shewed But see in an other place D. Harding from the 108. leafe to the 119. of his boke proueth the necessitie of one head and authoritie of the Bishope of Rome By naturall reason By Appeales made to Rome By Excommunications directed from Rome By Elections of Bishopes confirmed by the Pope By his Approuinge or Disprouinge of Councels By restoringe of Bishopes wrongfulli coÌ„deÌ„ned to their Churches By Bishops and Patriarches reconciled vnto him And then goeinge forward in this matter Although it be a childish thinge saieth he to sticke at the name any thinge is called by yet I will bringe good witnesse for these names VNIVERSAL BISHOPE HEAD of the CHVRCH This I trow should cause M. Iew. to be more calme and quiet consideringe that he shall not tary longe but haue the very Names brought furth which he craueth so much for But he must make somewhat of nothinge aud seeme to be a Winner before his aduersarie ioyne with him And therfore he
then their vulgar tongue And of the better sort how many there are which so know an other tounge beside their owne that they are not much the wiser for it You may see then how daungerous and sore a felow M. Iewel is Now concerning other two propositioÌ„s which M. Iewel hath with like Arte gathered out of D. Hardinges words about the Latine tounge as he hath done about the Greeke to make his craft more sensyble let D. Hardings own words be plainly set forthe After that theese Countreys Harding Fol. 59. saith D. Harding speking of y e west church had bene instructed in the Faithe as thinges grewe to perfection they had their Seruice accordingly No doubte such as was vsed in the Churches from whence their first Apostles and Preachers were sent And because the first Preachers of the Faithe came to these weast partes from Rome directed some from S. Peter some from S. Clement some others afterwarde from other Bishoppes of that sea Apostolike they planted and set vp in the Countries by them conuerted the Seruice of the Church of Rome or some other verye like and that in the Latine Tounge onlye for ought that can be shewed to the contrary Hereof may be gathered two Propositions The first PropositioÌ„s seruing to the question of Publike Seruice the weast Churches had suche Seruice as was vsed in the Churches from whence their first Apostles and Preachers came The seconde the firste planters of the Faithe came to these weast partes from Rome But how doth M. Iewel conceiue these matters His proufe sayeth he for the Latine Seruice hangeth vpon two poyntes The fyrste is that all the Faithe of the weast parte of the worlde came onlye from the Byshoppes of Rome First you be deceiued in your numbring because this is not the first Iew. 167 M. Iew. busy in changing shâ—fting and altering and adding but the seconde Proposition by D. Hardinges accompte Then in that second of D. Hardinges ye finde not these wordes AL THE FAITH OF THE WEST or these CAME ONLY FROM ROME For that had bene nothing else but to geue you an occasion to slip away from the Principall question and to enter into an endlesse nedelesse talke about AL THE FAITH to come from and to come ONLY from Rome Which because it was not geuen therefore you make it to your self of your owne wit And reason strongly in y e matter y t the faith came not into these quarters ONLY from because S. Paule planted the faith in England Nedelesse proues of M. Iew. and full of â—heasses and also Ioseph of Aramathea as is surmised by the Brittishe Chronicles And because we the Welshmen you meane being your selfe borne in Deuonsheere folowed the Church of Grecia in keping of Easter with such other mighty Argumentes TheÌ„ for the other part that AL FAITH came not from Rome ye presse vs sore with Tertullians authority that Hierusalem was the mother and the Springe of Religion as who should thinke that Iacob was not father of Ioseph because Iacob himself was begoten of Isaac and that Rome could not be mother of the Weast Churches because she her self had her Parents out of Hierusalem Or as though D. Harding had stayed vpon the question of AL FAITH and that ONLY from Rome which at all maketh no mention of AL or ONLyE So loosely you haue behaued your self in your first poynt let vs now consider your secoÌ„d The seconde is Iew. 167 that the Planters of the same faith ministred the Common Seruyce EVERY WHERE IN THE LATINE TOVNGE This is the first of D. Hardinges Propositions though M. Iewell make it the second poynt and in D. Hardinges words there is speciall mention neither of LATIN TOVNGE More chaÌ„ging and altering of M. Iew. neither of EVERY WHERE But generally he sayed it that suche Seruice was in these west partes as was vsed in the Churches from whence their first Apostles and preachers were sent And this might stand whether they came from Hierusalem Greece or Rome Wherfore he specified nothing vntill his seconde Proposition where out of this Principle he gathereth that because the faith came in to the Weast from Rome and they had the Latine Seruice therefore it should folowe by good reason that it was also deliuered in Latine where they planted the Christian Religion Consider now indifferent Reader how shamefully M. Iewel had disordered these matters Of fower plaine and credible propositions he hath made such a conueyaunce by Adding by Taking away by making of Particulars General by Drawing the Generall to special poynts by Making that first which is second by Promoting y e inferior vnto y e Superiors place y t he hath left nothing as he found it but as it wer of set purpose labored to make confusion The suÌ„me of M. Iewels conueiaunce in â—oure Propositions onlye Al y e people of some countries had their seruice in Greke saith D. Harding He wil proue saithe M. Iewel that ALL the Greke Church had it WHOLY THROVGHLY in the Greeke tounge Some whole Countries for y e more part vnderstode not Greke quod D. Hard. Some whole Countries vnderstoode not Greeke quod M. Iewel by his gathering The faith came into the west from Rome quod D. Harding Al the faith came only from Rome sayeth M. Iewel vpon it The plaÌ„ters of y e faith set vp in the CouÌ„tries by theÌ„ coÌ„uerted such Seruice as theÌ„ selues vsed quod D. Harding The planters of the same faith quod M. Iewel vpon it ministred the Common seruice EVERY WHER in the LATIN toÌ„ge What miserable shifting and changing is this What boldnesse in ventering What Ordinary course in deceiuing Yet this in dede is y e way to saue himself froÌ„ taking if he caÌ„ bring the questioÌ„ to such a Generality y t if he be driuen froÌ„ one place he mai flee to an other to make y â— aduersary weri of folowing the Reader weary of loking For suppose y e Latine Seruice were vsed in Aphrica y e vulgar people not vnderstanding it yet that is not EVERy WHER Suppose it were vsed in Fraunce yet neither y e proueth EVERy WHER Come nearer home to England and proue it to haue ben vsed there yet very much lacketh of EVERy WHER And so may M. Iewel like a bishop in deede not of Sarum but of the West Church go froÌ„ Country to Country in a straunge Visitation neuer make an end of Interrogatories InquisitioÌ„s vntil D. Harding shal satisfy his Lordship in al poynts and proue y â— EVERy WHERE IN THE WEST the Seruice was ministred in y e Latine tounge Which thing I do not say y t the Catholikes are not able to declare but be y t as it may be I note y e craft cuÌ„ning of M. Iew. which wold draw all things to such a generality or precisenesse of termes ALL FAITH ONLy FROM ROME EVERy WHER c. and in any part alter
Churche Ergo a Bishop of Rome was called Head of the Churche Haue ye any shift for this argument But M. Harding knoweth the case is moued Iew. 308 not of S. Peter but specially and namely of the bishop of Rome But Master D. Harding inferreth that S. Peter was Bishop of Rome ergo your Assertion is false if you sticke to the bare Letter of your question and inuent not some otherway to eskape by But when wil M. Iewel be to seeking For I dout not sayeth he But M. Harding doth remember Iew. 309 that the question that lieth betweene vs riseth not of any Extraordinary Name once or twice geuen vpon some speciall Affection Shiftinge and lying but of the vsuall and knowen Title of the Bishoppe of Rome How shoulde he remember that whiche you were not so Gentle or Wise to tel him of Haue ye not alwaies pressed hym with bringing forth of the Name of vniuersal Bishop â–ª Haue ye not misliked with him for it that he would not be bound to shewe the Name though he brought as much in sense as the Name importeth This haue ye done through your whole Aunswer with extreme Craking and Insultation And now when to satisfy your fantasticall request he hath alleaged the very Names and Titles which you vaunted your selfe so much vpon as thoughe they were neuer able to be found in any wryter ye flee to the Interpretation and Limitation of your question and stick not to y e plain and Grammatical construction of it And now see the vanity your selfe are able to bring forth good Authoritye where some Bishop of the worlde was called vniuersall Patriarch Iew. 30â— Hipocrite and that not by shifting of Termes one for another but in plaine manifest and expresse wordes and suche as in no wise may be denied Say you so Why then haue you all this while made such a matter of findinge oute these Termes vniuersal bishop and hed c. as though you would straight waies subscribe and yeld if you might therein be answered And why say you so constantly in an other place This Name is the verye thing that we deny If your selfe haue the places for that purpose already prepared gathered vndoubtedly to the Greate Praise of Iew. â—06 your Note Boke why doe you with suche brauery demaund them of your Aduersaries Or with extreme Iniquitie make a Tumult and Stur in mens consciencies for that word in which your selfe do know you are but a Bragger For if the Bishope of Constantinople were called an Vniuersall Patriarch caet how could you mistruste but as much and with more reason might haue bene sayed of the B. of Rome which was as you confesse the Cheife of the four Patriaches Or how could you be so earnest in reprouinge of that Title which your wisedome confesseth for a Surplusage to shew your greate learning and study to haue bene geuen to baser persons then the B. of Rome is If your Conscience were open through your owne sincere and true Dealing Or if by the Authorities which we should allege you were constrayned outwardly to expresse what ye conceaue and coÌ„cele within then should it be euident in sight that ye passe no more for the Names of Vniuersall Bishope Or Head of the Vniuersal Church though a thowsand Fathers had geauen them to the B. of of Rome then you doe regard the Termes Realy Verely truly with such like M. Iew. seketh not peace and concord but conâ—eÌ„tion and sâ—â—ite when they are by Catholike writers attributed to Christes body in the Sacrament And like as wheÌ„ these words Principality Primacy Cheife Rule or Ruler are proued to haue ben spokeÌ„ by old Fathers of y e See of Rome or B. there you turne your selfe to some dictionary or EtimologicoÌ„ of your owne or others Iewel 244 say A Principal Church is sometime vsed of the Fathers in this sense to signifie a Ciuil dominioÌ„ or principalitie of a Citie Againe Primatus is vsed for any superioriti or prefermeÌ„t aboue others Againe Princeps in the latin toÌ„ge is ofteÌ„ vsed for a maÌ„ 245 that for his vertu or rome or any singular qualitie is to be had in estimatioÌ„ aboue others 246 To be short wheras you say being pressed to S. Ambrose authoritie which called Damasus y â— B. of Rome Iew. 306 The Rector gouernor of y e church Let vs coÌ„sider whether the selfâ—ame form of speach haue beÌ„ applied to any other in like sort By which shift you satisfie y e coÌ„moÌ„ readers vntil you be againe answered to your greater coÌ„fusioÌ„ so hauing in your bosoÌ„ Iam sure lik distinctioÌ„s expositioÌ„s wher Vniuersal B. Head of the church are sundry wayes vsed you wold neuer if you had ben aquiet 〈◊〉 louer of truth so loÌ„g haue coÌ„tinued in requiring those veâ—y Termes to be allegeâ— which as you do expound them proue not to you sufficieÌ„tly y e Popes Supremicy You affirme 194 that in deede in a kinde of speach both Rome and Antioche and other great Cities famous for Religion may be called the Head and Spring of the Gospel And what shal let you then to turne theÌ„ to phrases whatsoeuer Titles be found attributed to the B. of Rome so by a kind of speach to make that Common which is Singular Wherby it is manifest that ye maintain CoÌ„tention and put those thinges forth which you know to be Nedelesse and Weake and Feeble only to try perchaunce the strength of your Aduersaries to the CommeÌ„dation of your owne Learning Or Vttering of y t Notes which ye haue gathered Or to oppresse your Answerer wyth multitude of words and quarels y t for the very heaps of them being either not Answered at all Or answered not so speedily you might triuÌ„ph iâ— y â— meane space w t some probability For when y â— Catholikes alleage Termes of like force and Equiualent then wil you haue no other but the Names of Vniuersall Bishop and Head c and then the Name is the thing that you deny From oâ—e corner to an other And when those selues same very NAMES are brought before you then ye make as though it were no harde matter to haue founde them out but then bring you the lyke of your owne Motion and then you run to Limitations vpon your question and to Shiftinge frome one point to another declaringe thereby that your sense only is to be coÌ„sidered although ye peeked the quarell against the Word But where will you staie your selfe For if it were proued in most ample manner with al Conditions and Circumstances as you by Shiftinge haue nowe added to the Principall question that the B. of Rome was not called but Intitled and Proclamed not of Priests pore Deacons but of some Riche Prelates sitting in GENERAL COVNCEL and that not once or twise vpoÌ„ fauor but by an Vsuall and knowen Stile All this would not conuert M. Iewel For in
saie we neede no Councel to restore Gods Truth that was taken awaie from vs without a Councel Euerie prince is bound in the whole to see the reformation of his owne Church and Countri Neither wil God hold him excused if he saie I wil tarye til al other Princes and the whole world doe the Lyke Iosue that noble prince when he had assembled al the tribes of Israel before him thus he spake vnto them Si malum vobis videtur c. If ye thinke it il to serue the Lord ye shal haue your choise But I and my house wil serue the Lord. Is it Lawful then to refuse the Nicene Councel euen in this respect only as it consisted of Chiefe heades and Gouernours of al Christendome Tertul. aduersuâ— Praxeâ— It pleased God to plant his Church in this Realme three hundred yeres before the first General Councel was holden at Nice The Lordes hand is not shortened He is likewise hable nowe to reforme the same by his holie word without tarieing for a General Councel For Antiquitie TErtullian saieth Hoc aduersus omnes Haereses valet id esse veruÌ„ quodcunque prius c. This marke preuai leth Against al Heresies That is the Trueth that was vsed first That is false and corrupt that was brought in afterward And therefore the holy fathers in the Councel of Nice made this general shoute and agreed vpon the same 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Let the AuncieÌ„t orders hold stil referring themselues thereby to the vse and order of the Primitiue Church Contrarywyse Valentinus Marcion and other Lyke Heretykes thought themselues wisest of al others and therefore vtterly refused as M. Harding and his felowes doe now to stand to the Apostles orders Thus Ireneus writeth of them Irenaeus lib. 3. ca. 2. Dicunt se non solum presbyteris c. They wil saie y t thei are wiser not only then other Priestes but also then the Apostles and that they haue found owt the perfite trueth Against Antiquitie NOtwithstanding it appeare by S. Augustine S. Cyprian Iew. 12â— and others that Infantes in the primitiue Church in sundrie places were admitted to the holy Communion yet AFTERWARDE vpon good aduyse they were iustly remoued from it because that benig in that age they were not thought hable to examine and proue theÌ„selues according to the doctrine of S. Paule 1. Cor. 11 and so to eate of that Breade and Drinke of that Cup. By this rekening then they of the primitiue Churche vnderstode not S. Paule so wel as the aftercummers And so hath Tertullians saiâ—ing litle effect how That is the Trueth that was vsed first It wil serue also in this place al that M. Iew. hath gathered Against Fathers and custome as aboue is declared For Vnitie GOD hath other waies and meanes saieth M. Iew. then by the Gouernement of the Bishopes of Rome whereby he hath euer gouerned his Church and preserued Vnitie How proueth he this Mary S. Cyprian saieth Ideo plures c. Therefore there be many Bishopes in the Church Iew 260 that one ruÌ„ning into heresies y â— rest may help e againe Cypr. lib. 3. epi. 13. lib. 4. epi. 9. The Churche is preserued in Vnitie by y e coÌ„sent of bishopes agreing in one And to this end S. Hiecome saieth as is before alleged Nouerint Episcopi c. Let Bishopes vnder staÌ„d In epi. ad Titum cap. 1. that they ought to rule y e Church as al in one Against Vnitie IMmediatly vpoÌ„ y t forsaied wordes foloweth a CoÌ„moÌ„ place against Vnitie As if M. Iewel would plainely protest that when it maketh any thing for his syde then it shal be alowed and praised And y t when the aduersarie would turne it to his purpose then shal it be litle or nothing worthe As in example Iew. 260 Hieron contra Luciferianos S. Hierome saieth Nomine vnitatis fidei Infidelitas scripta est Infidelitie hath ben writen vnder the Name of faith and Vnitie So lykewyse saieth the wyse man In tanto viuentes ignoraÌ„tiae bello Sap. 14. tot tanta mala Pacem appellabant VVhereas they Lyued in such a warr of ignorance so many and so greate mischiefs they called Vnitie What remaineth then now to be folowed of certaintie Or what staie shal there be for a right meanyng affection and trobled conscience If no such hold is to be taken of Fathers Councels Custom c. but that the Enemie wil make it to be forsaken vtterly or daungerously doubted of what Refuge is there left or what Authoritie Shal the Bishopes which are for the tyme rule in the causes of Religion That surely is already so apointed by God and that if it were otherwise should chieflie be wyshed for and procured But what hope is there to haue this graunted of M. Iewel Or if at one time he wil yeld vnto it at an other he will deny it For sometimes he will haue all Bishops equall And what order then can be set there where no one is better then an other Sometimes he will haue differencies and distinctions of Authoritie among them Yet then how little shall that preuaile when he wil not be obedient to that Authority As in example For aequalitie of Bishops S. Hierome wryteth thus vnto Euagrius Iew. 2â— Si Authoritas quaeritur c. If we seeke for Authority the world is greater then the Citie of Rome VVheresoeuer there is a Bishop whether he be at Rome or at Eugubium or at Constantinople or at Rhegium c. he is of like worthines and of like priesthode Because we are not onely led inwardly by Gods Spirit Iew. 257. but allso outwardly by our senses therefore hath Christ appointed not one man to be his Vicar Generall ouer all but euery of his Apostles and so euery Priest to be his Vicar within his diuision So saieth Eusebius B. of Rome Caput Ecclesiae Christus est Epist 3 c. Christ is the heade of the Church And his Vicares be the Priestes that doe their Message in the Churche in the steede of Christ Euery Bishop hath a portion of the Flocke allotted vnto him Iew. 266. Cyp li. 1. Epi. 3. whiche he must rule and gouerne and yeld accoÌ„pt vnto the Lord for the same For distinction emong Bishops The Decrees of the Councel of Nice Iew. 336. Conc. Aphric Ca. 105 haue committed bothe the inferioure clerkes and also the Bishoppes vnto their Metropolitaâ—es The Fathers of the Councell of Aphrica haue decreed thus that the B. of the first See Iew. 240 Ca. 6. be not called the chief of Priests or the highest Priest or by any other like title but only the Bishop of the first See In the Councel of CoÌ„stantinople it is wryten thus Iew. 245 Const 1. Ca. 2. Let the Bishops of Alexandria haue the charge only of the East the honor of primaci euer reserued to the church of Antioch More to this place might
be broughte out of M. Iew. workes especially Pa. 250. 267. and. 286. But by what Primate Patriarche or high Bishop would he be ruled which putteth the Spirituall Gouernment of the Church in the handes of Temporall Princes and maketh euery Bishop the Vicar of Christ In such sort as if there were no higher or better person then he for Authority in all the world And therefore iâ— these poynts hitherto there wil be no hold or stay For Succession But perchaunce all thinges shal be determined by Succession Iew. 277. For Irenaeus sayeth Presbyteris illis c. We ought to obey the Bisâ—ops in the church that haue their succession from the Apostles which together with the succession of the Bishoprike haue receiued the certaine gifte of the Trnthe according to the will of the Father This in deede would serue if it were coÌ„sidered but M. Iewel liketh it not For in the next side before he saith of y c Pope c Against Succession THey Feast and cheare them selues Iew. 276. and Smothe the world with vaine talke But S. Ihon sayeth Nolite dicere c. Matth. 3. Neuer say Peter or Abraham was our Father S. Paule speaking of his Successors saith thus Act. 20. Equidem Scio. c. I know that after my departure from you there shall Rauening wolues come amongest you that shall not spare the flocke And S. Hierome sayeth Dist 40. NoÌ„ est fa. Non sunt sanctorum filij c. They be not euermore the Children of holy men that sit in the roomes of holy men But notwithstanding all these foresaide perplexities and doubtes at length I trow we shall come to some Resolution and quietnesse For the word of God and the scripture shall be the Iudge And yet here also is a great vncertainty For M. Iewel for the most part appealeth to y e expresse worde in the Scripture His Reply is full of his bragges therein and with suche faire promises the greater sort is seduced One example in a matter so manifest is sufficient As For the VVorde of God or Scripture SPeaking of the Scholemens conclusyons about Christes presence vnder the formes of bread and wine he sayeth We may not here accompt Iew. 99. what may be in either of them by drift of vaine fantasie but rather we ought to consider what Christ in the first Institution thereof did and what he commaunded to be done Here loe he refuseth to haue the sense discussed but sticketh to the bare text But it wil not be allwaies so as appereth by these Examples Against the VVorde of God or Scripture CHrist did not therefore so abase himselfe to washe his Disciples feete Iew. 117. to the intent they according to the letter should doe the same but in himselfe to shewe them a perfite Example of humility c. In like manner Math. 18 10. 8 Christ set a Childe before his Disciples and willed them all to be as Children He bad them to shake of the dust from their Shewes and to cary neither Rod nor Scrip about them and to salute no man vpon the way not that they shoulde practise these thinges according to the rigoure of the wordes but to the intent that by the same they mighte be induced to a deeper vnderstanding And S. Hierome sayeth Iew. 150. Whosoeuer vnderstandeth the Scriptures Hieron ad Gal. li. 3. ca. 5. otherwise then the sense of the holy Ghost requireth by whiche holye Ghost the Scriptures were wrytten although he be not yet departed from the churche yet he maye well be called an Heretike The sense rather and the meaninge of the Scriptures is to be taken Iew. 198. Orig. ad Ro. ca. 3. li. 3. Iew. 211. then the wordes To say The word of God only because it is wryten or spoken is auaileable of it selfe without vnderstanding is a Superstitious and Iewishe kinde of foly Let vs make nowe an end of this Chapiter for there is no ende of questionynge and altering as farre as is to be learned of M. Iewel And my Deduction or Argument is short When the Sonne of man commeth shall he fynde think you faith vpon the earthe Lucae 18. If the sense of the Scripture be the thing that is to be honoured and folowed And if that Seâ—se is not to be perceiued of euerye one that vnderstandeth the Grammatical construction and exposition of the wordes we muste learne it of some body biside our owne selues And they of whome we learne it must be suche as vpon whose Authority we may builde and neuer chaunge But neither by Fathers nor Councels nor Customes nor present state of Bishops nor by the texte it selfe of the Scripture that Authoritye can be established for by Maister Iewels accompte neuer a one of them dothe fullye satisfye in any mater ergo we are left vppon this reckening alltogether vnquiet and to seeking where to staye our Consciencies Is not this a perfecte Religion Or is not this a skilfull Professor of it by whome it is brought to passe that no Faithe at all can be appoynted vnto vs The Catholike yet may sone be in quiet For obeying that visible Churche of which the Pope is a visible heade he leaueth to the determination of it all thinges perteining to Councels Customes Fathers and Scriptures But these felowes that know not What to followe or forsake but by the Testimonye of Councels Customes Fathers c. and yet dare not fully trust those selfe same thinges or persons which are their guides what a miserable case are they in coÌ„cerning them selues and how Artificially doe they take Faithe cleane away in some and weaken it exceadingly in other BEWARE therefore of them by time Indifferent Reader And concerninge the stedfastnesse which should be of Faithe be not made alltogeather Indifferente throughe this laste and worste kind of M. Iewels Common Places Thus hauing declared euidently that M. Iewells greate boke in Quantitie is of simall matter in substance and that his Common places and Digressions are so many that his straite folowing of the question and his direct Answers to the purpose must be sone rekoned I trust the Indifferent Reader will BEWARE of him and not muche maruell at that Boâ—lke where litle Corne is sure to be found Nor thinke those vessels to be ful whose bourdes are longe and whopes of greate cumpasse Now to make his behauiour more plaine yet and manifest let vs come to certaine other Specialties and loke more particularly into his boke And firste it shal be worth the while to consider how M. Iewell hath ordered D. Harding In Peruerting his meaninge In disgrating his Authorities In Wranglinge with him In Dissimbling and butting with him In Refelling one truth by an an other And in Courteous as they say Reportinge of him Which ended I wilcome in y e third boke to other men as Auncient Fathers Later Doctours and so furth shortly prouing it vnto thee Indifferent Reader that M. Iewell hath
one particular the contrarye be proued But let vs consider the compasse of your inuentiou a litle further What if we proue that the two Disciples whom Christ ouertoke in the way to Emaus receiued the Sacrament vnder one kind Or that S. Ambrose and S. Basile receiued likewise vnder one is not all this plaine contrary to your assertions No sayeth M. Iewel For the question is moued of LAY PEOPLE Iew. 12â— The fifth Shifte M. Harding bringeth examples of Christ and two disciples who were of the number of Seuenty and two and therfore it maye well be thought they were ministers and not of the lay sort And againe I demaunde of the lavitie he aunswereth of Sainct Ambrose and Sainct Basile whiche were Bishoppes In dede M. Iewel you muste pardon him for hee thoughte that a good argumente for Communion vnder one kinde might haue ben taken of Christ his two disciples or of S. Ambrose or S. Basils authority alone But seing you haue now so conueighed the matter that all that will not serue where might a man finde examples to please you If it were by one example to be shewed that the laitye and WHOLE PEOPLE receiued OPENLY vnder one kinde and in the CHVRCH would this satisfie you No not this For the thing denied by M. Iewel The sixth shifte Iew. 14â— is this That the Sacrament was euer ministred vnto the people in one kind openly in any congregation or in the OPEN ORDER and vsage of any CHVRCH And againe It will not folowe that this was the COMMON ORDER of the Church Iew. 133. By which wordes ORDER and VSAGE we see one or two euidences would not be taken because so few proue not an VSAGE How now then When will this felow leaue his flying backe You should M. Iewel come nearer and nearer or stay at the least in some Conclusion But ye adde still more and more to the question and seeke to come out of the straits into which through folish hardinesse you are cast by your owne glorious Sermon Surely ye be gone a great way from those plaine and few wordes which this question of Communion vnder both kindes had at the beginning Yet will I folowe you if perchaunce I may see some end Therfore if I were able to proue that the WHOLE PEOPLE withoute mentioning of Bishops Priestes or Infants did receiue vnder one kind OPENLY in any CONGREGATION or in the OPEN ORDER and VSAGE of any Church Then I trust you would geue ouer all contention No you will neuer leaue till you haue brought it to an endlesse controuersye The Negatiue of our side say you which so much troubleth him is this Iew. 14â— Che. vij shift That for the space of six hundred yeares after Christ it can not be found in any old Doctor or Councell that euer the holy Communion was ministred to the people in the Church or in any open assemble in one kinde only AS IT IS NOWE MINISRED IN THE CHVRCH OF ROME You be safe M. Iewel I warrant you you be safe All the Catholikes in the whole world are not able to take you For what ecceptions will not you make and what Extensions will not you deuise vnder pretense of these wordes AS IT IS NOW MINISTRED IN THE CHVRCH OF ROME Come who will let him bring what he can If from the Priestes crowne downe to his foote And from Confite or to lte Missa est he proue not the like to haue bene vsed then as is nowe in Amice Albe Stole Girdle Praying Blessing Eleuating Breaking Communicating and distributing c. who shall let M. Iewel to say that he demaunded of such order of ministring as is now in the Church of Rome For as well he may in this matter of Receiuing vnder both kindes make question of the Priestes vestiuentes and of his soft speaking as in the question of Priuate Masse which concerneth nothinge else but Sole Receiuinge draw the state of it vnto saying of Masse and therevpon shewe many feates of his Cheualry And when shall he then come to the poynt of the controuersye whiche hath chosen such compasses to wander about in Therefore M. Iewel if you hold your selfe here you be safe enough I warrant you But are ye not ashamed so to trifle and to fight for nothing with suche contention We can not proue against you so formallye and demonstratiuelye as you require neither can we answer your challenge as nowe you haue expressed it But what then Where is the profit of your victorye What spoiles bring ye to your companye This is your fault Maister Iewell The vain contention of M. Iewel as in the former Article so now againe in this that you make a mightie shew and are not hable to fasten one blowe you laboure with hande and tounge as thoughe you woulde conquere some and free passage beinge graunted you ye can take nothinge away from vs. For let not the receauing vnder both kindes be fouÌ„d in OPEN CHVRCH and VSAGE OF THE CHVRCH and in the WHOLE PEOPLE And AS IT IS NOWE MINISTRED IN THE CHVRCHE OF ROME Yet for so muche as by Christe and his two Disciples by Saincte Ambrose Scrapion and others we proue that it is not contrarie to his Institution we confound your lying tonge which speaketh so lowdely and earnestly thereof as though the Catholike Church did not kepe it because the Laietie now receaueth vnder one kynd in moste places If it be true as your selfe confesse either voluntariely or constrained by the Catholikes that Receauing vnder one kind hath Examples for it in the Primitiue Churche The Catholike hathe his purpose and those yeres which you were content to be tried by then is it aloweable And then surely it is not against Christes Institution And then doth the vse of the Church now stand with Christes Institution and then shuld not you so shamefully abuse your Aduersarie Iew. 119 with how can M. Harding warrant the manifeste breach of Christes INSTITVTION 343 Againe The causes that moueth the Church of Rome to break Christes INSTITVTION are not great 150 Againe M. Harding thus maintaining the open abuse of the holy mysteries offendeth against Christes INSTITVTION â—â—9 Again what troweth he there is no difference betwene obeing Gods COMMAVNDEMENT and breaking gods COMMAVNDEMENT Againe With what indifferent iudgement then can M. Harding thus compare these thinges together 116 an INSTITVTION with no INSTITVTION Againe 114 the best stay that these meÌ„ caÌ„ lay hold vpoÌ„ is to deny Christes INSTITVTION Again 110 M. Harding thinketh that the people may safely breake Christes INSTITVTION c As though either he or any other Catholik weÌ„t about it But if it be so in deede and if you will abyde by it that Christes Institution is broken when any receaueth vnder one kinde alone goe not then from that state of the question and before this be tried troble not vs and others with matters impertinent
to no purpose And this I take to be one knacke of his cunning that he prouided to make his Replie in such a forme as might dehort some frome the Reading because of the length thereof not agreinge with theyr greate businesse And amase other in reading because it cumbreth the memory with so many matters And gette some renoune and praise to his owne side thoughe there folowed no Reading because it wil be commonly beleued that I trow in makinge so many wordes he is not to seeking of an Answer And if he will not haue me to call it a knacke of his Cunning then surely will it be proued to be a Lacke of discretion so that he shall not escape iust reproche either for his craftines if he perceyued it either for his dulnesse if he did not consider it For the biggnesse of a boke is not reproueable if accordinge to the nature of the matter the handeling of it be proportioned But whosoeuer increaseth his worke aboue mesure by taking in that which is not agreable either he is to wise for the Simple by making them conceiue muche of that whiche is litle Or he is not wise enough in the iudgement of the Learned by puffinge that vp to a greate quantitie which would by reason be lesse in Sight and more in Substance But lete vs firste make our Obiection and also proue it and then afterwardes consyder whether it dothe argue a Craftines rather or a dullnes to be founde in M. Iewels Inuention I laye it then vnto your faulte that ye haue ouercharged your Booke with Common Places and Impertinent And because I woulde be mye selfe the better perceyued and you also thereby shoulde be directed the more Orderly to make your Answer I take your Common Places to be of two kindes The one consystethe of Thinges which we maye vse as well as you And to the vsynge of whiche you doe peeke an Occasion out of the Question it selfe though you neede not yet to vse it at all or els more Discretelye shoulde haue vsed it And these I call Common Places The other consisteth of suche Matters as we can not or maye not vse and whiche you also should at no tyme followe thoughe it be moste familiar with you And if at any other tyme you might yet in the case of these Articles whiche are proponed you had no occasion to vse them And these I cal digressions not because the foresayed places might not runne vnder that Title but because in them you may pretend some excuse and here you can bringe none To begyn therfore with your Common places you are surely no niggard of them Out it gothe vpon neuer so litle occasion that which you haue gathered and if none at all be expressely offered yet you will make one rather then not vtter your cunning Will you haue a fewe notes of them I could serue you with a hundred and odde gathered out of one halfe only of your boke and no more But these few which I shall recken may be sufficient bothe to proue my obiection true and cause you to amend that fault hereafter Iewel Pag. 15 Euery man ought to prepare himselfe before he come to God Iewel Pag. 25. The example of Christ must be folowed Iewel Pag. 28 The company of Communicantes was called Communio Iewel Pag. 28. The wicked Communicate togeather Iewel Pag. 45. Small faultes are not to be contemned Iewel Pag. 52. Heretikes haue alleaged Custome Iewel Pag. 66. Deceauers blase their doings by the names of famous men Iewel Pag. 89 The company of Priestes was greate in the old time Iewel Pag. 94 The people in old time did Communicate Iewel Pag. 101 We must be obedient to God Iewel Pag. 107 We must not hang vpon the authoritie of mortall men Iewel Pag. 111 Christes institution must be kept Iewel Pag. 118 Gods holye spirite bloweth where it thinketh good Iewel Pag. 127 The fewer places muste be expounded by the moe Iewel Pag. 131 The mysteries were kept in both kindes Iewel Pag. 141 Manye abuses haue bene about the mysteries Iewel Pag. 143 Hauing Gods woorde we want no authoritye Iewel Pag. 162 All the East spake not one tounge Iewel Pag. 167 Religion came not first from Rome Iewel Pag. 171 God loketh not for vtterance of voyce Iewel Pag. 181 The people of Hyppo spake Latin Iewel Pag. 204 Appeale is to be made to the Churche in doubtfull cases Iewel Pag. 210 Great profite in reading of Scriptures Iewel Pag. 216 Ignorance is the mother of errours Iewel Pag. 229 One Bishop must be in one City Iewel Pag. 230 Vniuersa Fraternitas the whole brotherhoode signifieth the companie within euerie seuerall and particular Diocese 241 Princes haue ben fauorable to Bishops Papa in old tyme signified Father and was geuen generallie to all Bishopes 242 The prerogatiue to sit before other is called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 259 In the old tymes men that stode in doubt sought vnto the best learned 263 The Bishopes of other Countries called the Bishope of Rome brother or felow 280 It is lawful for Bishopes to excōmunicat 281 Bishopes haue the alowing of the Electiō or consecration of Bishops 295 Euery great Metropolitane Citie within her owne Prouince may be honored with the Title of Mother Church 300 The Title Vniuersall hath bene geuen to some Bishoppes These be your Common places M. Iewell but these by the third part are not all that I doe finde in halfe your boke And if they were all yet they might haue occupied by very many partes lesse roome in your Booke then they doe What cause then why you dilated them so much Let vs come to one or two particulars That Christes Institution is to be kepte is one of your Common places An other is That the people of old tyme did Communicate with the Priest The first of these you speake muche for and allege to that purpose Iew. 25 S. Paul 1. Cor ▪ 11. Iew. 60 S. Hierom in 1. Cor. 11. Iew. 91 S. Matthe 26. Iew. 111 S. Chrysostom Ho. 61 Ad Po. Antioch Iew. 143 S. Cyprian li. 2. Ep. 3. and ad Iubaianum Iew. 144 And again S. Cyprian li. 2. Ep. 3. Iew. 150 S. Hierom ad Galat. li. 3. ca. 5. S. Hylar ad Const Augustum S. Augustin de vnitate Ecclesiae And S. Cyprian once againe lib. 2. Epi. 3. Besides Indignations and Inuectiues of your owne againste the Catholikes in this matter as thoughe they coulde not abide Christes Institution In folowing of which Place if you had spared your selfe and bestowed that Tyme and Labor in defynyng of Christs Institution vnto vs which you wasted to no purpose in prouing that it must be obserued it had ben wel spent of you and as we Looked for but to proue that which is not doubted of and to leaue the doubt vnresolued which ōly is moued it serueth to make the Replie Greate but not to make it perfite and full The second you proue by S. Iames Lyturgie
Places which you so ofte and thicke Expound your own meaninge if we M. 〈◊〉 haue missed doe bring againste the Pope are odious at the firste hearinge but when they shall be Considered and Answered either they shall he founde not to be so as you reporte either els to haue a true and Christian sense in them Therefore to presse vs w t them out of Place Season that we should not intend to answer theÌ„ that they so 〈◊〉 away for the present without Answer might hinder our cause in the iudgement of many a Reader it was craftely done and vnhonestlye As on the other side if you God wote meante no harme at all but without all immoderate Affection or Crafty cumpasse went plainely and directly forwarde in your matters only that your Replie might be full then haue you done grosselye and vnorderly To be shorte whatsoeuer and howsoeuer the causes be the Indifferent Reader may iudge of y e Effect and perceaue that they are vndoubted Digressions whiche you haue made from the question to Canons and the Gloses vpon theÌ„ and which I burden you withall And I burden you herewithall so much the more iustely and ernestly M. Iew. finâ—â—th fault with digressioÌ„s because your selfe are so Rigorous vppon lesse Occasion or none at all againste D. Hardinge For when he in the Article of Priuate Masse did put it as a sure Ground that the Masse or Vnbloudye Sacrifice was so manye wayes to the Proued that you coulde not withstande the Catholykes therein Hard. Fol. 25. And towched shortelye in a Leafe and a half the Authorities which dydde serue that Purpose of whiche he might haue made A Iuste Treatise and neuer haue gone byside hys Purpose yet that litle whiche he spake greeueth you so much that you say It is a simple kinde of Rhetorike Iew. p 12 to vse so large digressions frome the matter before ye once enter into the matter As who should say that the Author of a Treatise might not take what Order he would Or that to speake of the Masse were an Impertinent thinge to Priuate Masse Or that in the discussing of a compound it were not lawfull to open the nature of y e simple Or when two things are at one tyme yet couertly impugned to shew that the one of them standeth vppon sure ground thereby to discumforte the Aduersarie After like sorte of quarrelling whereas D. Harding concluded that Single Communion was not only suffered in tyme of persecution Hard. 38. but also allowed in quiet peaceable tymes euen in the Churche of Rome it selfe where true Religion hath euer bene moste exactly obserued caet M. Iewel greately offended herewith all and merueilinge as it were at the Matter But why doth M. Hardinge sayeth he Iew. 5â— thus out of reason rush into the Church of Rome that was longe agoe But why say you so M. Iewel Doth not the Argument which he maketh require that he should commend that See For Rome itselfe allowed sayeth he paiâ—ate Masse ergo it is the lesse to be douted of Whiche Argument because it will at these dayes seeme the worse the more that it dependeth of the Authoritie of that See could he doe lesse then bring one testimonie in the praise thereof and call you this a Russhing in thereto out of season But what should he haue done by your fyne aduise Mary say you See the malice to speake il of Rome he taketh it to be to some purpose and to speake wel therof he coÌ„pteth it out of season It had bene more to the purpose to haue vewed the state of the same Church as it standeth now Had it so And you being so Maliciously and wickedly disposed would the Authoritie thereof as it is now haue preuailed with you Lette anie indifferent man be Iudge whether it had bene aptlye done of D. Harding in warrantinge of Sole Receauinge as alowed in Rome to commend y â— ConsequeÌ„ce by telling the faults which may be founde in that Citie nowe rather then the testimony of the Bishopes of all Gallia whiche within the six hundred yeres after Christe acknowleged that from thence came the Fountaine and spring of theyr Religion Againe let any Indifferent man iudge whether M. Iewell hath Answered this prayse of the Bisshoppes of Gallia geauen so longe agoe vnto the Churche of Rome by his Accusinge of Bisshoppes Cardinales and Priestes Or by Lamentinge the case of Rome as S. Bernarde dyd Or by makinge of Prouerbes vppon it as Euripides sometyme dyd of the Citie of Athens Surely in this very place Is this the liberty of the Gospell or the Charitye of your Sprites where without cause he reproueth his Aduersarie for commendinge out of season as he iudgeth the See of Rome it is a greate shame to Rushe into Discommendation of Bisshoppes Cardinals and Priestes attendinge vppon that See And to like it better to Examine and Iudge the Present 〈◊〉 of Rome then to remember the Auncient Dignitie and Vertue thereof to confirmation of suche pointes as in those dayes were by it alowed Other places and Signes thâ—re are out of which I doe gather that M. Iewel can not abide Digressions as when he sayeth This Question is out of course Iew. 149 We may well suffer M. Hardinge to wander at large in matters that relieue him nothing 153. Iâ— it were lawfull for others so to doe it were no greate Masterie to write Bookes Again These be none of the maters that lie in Question M. Harding maketh a longe discourse of the Apostles caet 155. If he had shewed to what end we might the better haue knowen his purpose But to what end 160. For neither it is denied of vs nor it is any part of our question Which thinge neither is denied by me 180. nor any wise toucheth the question By these I am persuaded that he would haue y e matter it self folowed and loueth not to haue the time idelly bestowed Nowe though I am hable to declare that Doctour Hardinge in these pointes hath done no otherwise then he lawfullye might Yet to lette that passe I Conclude agaynste 〈◊〉 Iewell that of all thinges it is most Absurd in him that is so Precise with other Vnequall measure to be wide and large towardes him selfe in the selfe same kinde of thing for which though vniustlye he reproueth other And if Iew. 153. as M. Iewel confesseth it be no great mastery to wryte bookes if it be lawful to waÌ„der at large in matters that relieue not Let no man wonder at the worthynesse of him which hath wrytten so mightye a Reply considering that he runneth so far into Common Places and Rusheth so fowlye into dispraise of Popes Cardinals Priests and Church of Rome whiche neither maketh the new Gospellers the honester meÌ„ neither destroieth the Present and Auncient faith of the Catholike Church ¶ Of a thirde kinde of Common Places worse then any of
the foresaid two CAP. III. TO proue by examininge of sundrye wintesses A Truthe which is either plaine by it selfe Or els by the Aduersary confessed it is an idle spending and prolonging of tyme to the shame of the party that vseth it And no hurt at al to the vnderstanding of the Iudge or the Court by troubling them with some dout or erroure For in laboring to perswade but a Trueth which euery man oughte to cleaue vnto be the vnderstanding neuer so closelye vnited therevnto by fulnesse of perswasion it can be no sinne or daunger to stand fast by that which not to assent vnto were reproueable And therefore sauing for other tircumstances of Subteltie or Vanitie vsed therein M. Iewel is not hurtfull to any poynte of true Faithe and Religion in his folowing of those Common Places of which I haue spoken all ready On the other side when an Heretike goeth from the matter that he hathe taken in hand to Accuse and Condemne and bring into harred Popes Cardinalles Priestes c. by gathering in of Ruinors by folowing of Suspitions and setting open vnto the world the worst that he can speake of the Clergy This although it be Vniustly Proudly and Vncharitably don yet doth it not greatly touche in any parte our Faith or Religion For if all were true that is fained vpon Popes Cardinals and Priestes Or if nothing be false of that which their Enemies reporte of some of them what foloweth then No more surely than that suche Persons are offenders and that the faultes of the Clergy are to be Corrected And I pray God be mercifull vnto his Church that either no Crimes be found among the worthier members of it Or iust Canons and lawes may be executed suche as allready are made for the purpose But let these thinges be as they may or will be who hath made Englishmen Iudges ouer Romanes Or who but the cursed Children doe tell tales abrode of their Fathers Priuities Againe why should there not be Praying for Soules departed because Some haue taken mony for it Or whye due honor not geuen to Sacramentes because some Sir Iohns are irrenerent It is not safe to leape out of the Arke into the maine waters beeause of some euil sent of men or bcastes therin Or to leaue the folowing of Christe because Publicanes and lypnners went in his companye The Apostleship is honorable thoughe Iudas be a Traitor And the Doctrine of him that sitteth orderlye in the Chaire is pure and good though the breathe whyche commeth from him doe sauoure These things therefore considered let M. Iewel make Impure digressions not sparinge to beraie his owne clothes in a fowle waye and intent so that he may get some dust or durt to hurle after â— e heeles of Popes and Cardinals Yet al this concerneth but maners only and should not in anie Indifferent iudgement or meane discretion remoue a Christian from the sâ—edfastnes of his faith But nowe A thirde kind of Common Places which I finde resorted vnto of M. Iewel Yea rather pointed out vnto vs by him is so wide and so daungerous that a man shall not only goe quickely out of his waye in folowinge them by him selfe but also when God shall send him a Guide to conducte him in the way 〈…〉 be vncertaine and doutful 〈…〉 meanes as M. Iewel 〈…〉 It semeth that now 〈…〉 long since intended Purpoâ—es of the 〈…〉 almost come to theyr 〈…〉 there lacketh no more nowe but that by Open Apostasie he make the faith of Christe to be forsaken and that not so much as the name thereof shal be suffered in the world Speake I this without cause Let any Indifferent man be Iudge For take the fundations awaye frome an howse and can it contynue any space together Take all credite awaye betwixte man and man in this trade of life and will there be left any Occupying to and fro If no Authoritie and law be in a Common wealthe can the state thereof endure What is that among Christians which hath brought them vnto the Faith and Staied and Gouerned them in it Is it not the Authority of the Churche Commending the Doctrine of Christ vnto vs By Fathers By Councels By Custome and Tradition And by Succession of Bishoppes euen from S. Peter hitherto Preparation for y â— Antichrist Emong all which if no one may safely be leaned vnto what remaineth in all the world worthye of credite And except there be an Authoritye and Order which we may and must folow what Faith can we haue at all But who is he that prepareth suche waies for the Antichrist Or who shaketh the Hartes and Consciencies of Christians euen from the very botome and foundations of them Mary except you BEWARE of him M. Iewel emonge other is he And either he keepeth yet still in store some secrete ReuelatioÌ„s by which perchaunce he will perswade the worlde which is incredible Or els As farre as we may gather by his Reply neither him selfe hath any Faith neither will suffer any other to be quiet in it Like a Rhetorician which for Glorie or Gaine sake feareth nothing so much as to be found Tongetied in any matter especially professing to speake aptly and copiously in euery matter And to that end prouideth his Common places to be in a readinesse For witnesses and Against witnesses For Rumors and againste Rumors For trying oute a matter by Racking and Against racking So hathe M. Iewel done Diuinitye brought to Rhetoricke He hathe brought Diuinitie downe to Rhetoricke And as though the kingdome of God consisted in Talke and not in Vertue and Power so doth he shewe vnto his diligenâ— Readers the Arte how to weakeÌ„ the Aduersaries staies and Authorities and in answering all other men yet for their owne partes neuer to be answered And to this end serueth thys worst kind of Common Places of which I gene thee Indifferent Reader faire warning As in example For Custome against Custome For Fathers against Fathers For Councels against Councels For Vnity against Vnity For Ceremonies against Ceremoniâ—s For Miracles against Miracles In which how M. Iewel hathe furnished hym selfe let it firste be declared and then afterwarde Considered For Custome If he doubt S. Paule Iew. 101. yet the verie practise and continuall Order of the primitiue Churche fullie declareth what Christe mente And they say Consuetudo est Optima Interpres Legum Custome is the best Interpreter of the Lawe Si De Interpretatione legis quaeratur c. If question happen to be moued touching the meaning of a Law first of all we must see De legibus et Se natuscoÌ„ sulto Longa Consue Si de what order hathe bene vsed in the like Cases in times past For the Custome and practise of the people is the best expounder of the Lawe Against Custome THe Reason that S. Basile maketh of Custome and continuaunce Iew. 49. being wel considered is very weake bothe for many other good and Iust causes