Whereupon as the scripture speaketh of S. Paul that he sate at Corinth a yeare sixe monethes teaching the word of of God amongst them meaning that he continued there and preached to them in like sort the Fathers â—o signifie that Peter abode and taught in Rome are accustomed to say that he sate at Rome So doth Austin mention the succession of Bishops from the seat of Peter So doth Ierom honor the Bishop of that See with the nâ—me of Peters chaire But what is this to the supremacie For it is spoken by the Fathers also that Peter did sit and hâ—d hâ—s châ—ire at Antioche yea at Antioche as some say he had in deede a high chaire wherin he was exalted And of his chaire at Antioche you haue an olde holy day of his chaire at Rome a new one trimmed of late Wherefore if the high chaire of Peter at Antioche with an olde feaste could not make the Bishop of Antioche supreme head how can the Bishop of Rome be made supreme head by Peters chaire perhaps a lower chaire at Rome with a newe feast If the new feast be that which maketh vp the matter the Pope was no foole in making that feast He may doo well to make mâ—e Hart. You make your selfe sport with our feastes of S. Peters chaire as though I had said that because the Fathers doo name the Sée of Rome the seat and chaire of Peter therefore the Bishop of Rome must haue the supremacie Whereas I alleaged them to shew that the Bishops and the succession of Bishops in that See is the rocke on which S. Ièrom saith he knoweth the Church to be built against which S. Austin saith that the proud gates of hell preuaile not Rainoldes But you doo conclude the Popes supremacie hereof or els you stray from the question Hart. Why may I not conclude it Rainoldes If you list but the feast of S. Peters chaire would proue it more galantly For if the testimonies which you alleage of Ierom and Austin be examined they say nothing for it S. Ierom abiding in his young yeares among the Arian heretikes in the coastes of Syria was required by their Bishop to allow and approue a profession of faith touching the Trinitie wherein he suspected there lay some priuy poyson hidden Wherefore least he should yéelde thereunto rashly he sought to be directed by the aduise and counsell of Damasus Bishop of Rome as whom both hee acknowledged to bee his owne Biâ—hop and knew to be a Bishop that helde the catholike faith which praise by that title of the rocke he giueth him In Afrike they were troubled with other heretikes named Donatistes a sect which despised the communion of Saintes and rent them selues a sunder from the assemblies of Christians because there were some euil men amongst them as they said whose felowship defiled them S. Austin wrote a Psalme for the Catholiks against these wherein hauing proued first out of the scriptures that we must not leaue the communion of the Church for that there are some euill men in it sith Christ hath declared that there should be so as tares with corne in the field as chaffe with wheate in the floore as badde with good in the nett he confirmeth this doctrine by the consent iudgement of the Church of Rome whose Bishops euen from Peter had imbraced it still and constantly maintained it the gates of hel in vaine assaulting them So the wordes of Austin and Ierom doo import a sinceritie of faith in the Church of Rome the Roman Bishops against the Arians and Donatistes but neither of their wordes import the supremacie which is a soueraintie of power Hart. If they had not meant as well a soueraintie of power as sinceritie of faith why should they mention that Church and not others Were there no Bishops sincere through al the world but the Bishops of Rome onely Rainoldes Yes a great many and they mention them too For Ierom though he asketh the aduise of Damasus a young man of an old a Roman of the Bishop of Rome whose religion was sound whose authoritie was great and the greater with Ierom because he knew him well as hauing lerned him selfe the faith of Christ in Rome where he was baptized yet doth he name S. Ambrose the Bishop then of Milan as sound in faith also and the Bishops of Aegypt yea of the west in generall Now in the west saith he the sunne of righteousnes ariseth and the inheritance of the Fathers is kept vncorrupted amongst you alone In like sort doth Austin note against the Donatistes whose canker had fretted but a péece of Afrike that Bishops of the coastes and countries beyond sea and Churches through the whole world were pure from their heresie Howbeit as Ierom preferred the aduise of Damasus before others to confirme himselfe so did Austin choose the Church of Rome aboue the rest to confirme his brethren For he penned his Psalme wherin this is writen of purpose to the capacitie of the very meanest simplest of the people that they might vnderstaÌ„d and remember the state of the controuersie with the Donatistes Wherefore he commendeth the truth by the authoritie of the Church of Rome which of all the Churches that the Apostles planted was both néerest to them and best estéemed of amongst them But how farre S. Austin was from your fansie of the Popes supremacie when he alleaged the Church of Rome to this intent let that bee a token that writing for the learned who were of greater reach he alleageth the Churches of Ierusalem of Corinth of Antioche Ephesus Smyrna Pergamus of Asia Bithynia Galatia Cappadocia in a worde of all the rest as well as of Rome And this may be semblably noted in S. Ierom. Who when the Arians charged him with heresie did iustifie his faith by his communion with the Churches of the west and of Aegypt of Damasus Bishop of Rome and Peter Bishop of Alexandria According to the law of the Emperour Theodosius wherein it is decréed that all they should be named and esteemed Catholikes who beleeued of the Trinitie as Damasus and Peter did the rest to be accounted and punished as heretikes A great prayse I graunt of the faith of Damasus that so good an Emperour did set him for a sampler whom Christians should folow but a prayse common 〈◊〉 him with Peter Bishop of Alexandria and common to them both with sundrie Bishops of the East Nectarius Pelagius Diodorus Amphilochius Helladius Otreinâ—s Gregorie Nyâ—â—en and mo Of whom the same Emperour did 〈◊〉 make an other law that none should haue the châ—rge of â—ishoprickes committed to them but such as weâ—â— of their faith Whereby you may perceyue that the prayse giuen to Damasus by Ierom proueth a sound faith common to the Bishop of Rome with many other not a soueraine power peculiar to him alone aboue all Hart. Then
so then For though the Arian heresie did set vpon Liberius fiersly and ouerthrew him when he being weeried with the tediousnes of his banishment did subscribe to it yet sith he recouered himselfe from his fall and manfully withstood it afterwarde it cannot be saide to haue preuailed against him Whether it preuailed or no against Felix of whom some report that he was an Arian some that he communicated only with the Arians it is no matter to S. Austin who reckeneth him not amongst the Roman Bishops Wherein though your Genebrard doo dissent from him because Felix dyed a martyr as he saith citeth Sozomen to proue it but he belyeth Sozomen to infer on that lye that Peters chaire hath such a vertue that it could rather beare a martyr then an heretike or a Pope that fauoured heretikes yet others not séeing belike such a mystery in the death of Felix are of S. Austins minde euen your Onuphâ—ius also who neither doth acknowledge his Popedome nor his martyrdome Now the heresie of the Donatistes had lesse preuailed against them For as they had before withstood the Nouatians the coosin germans to the Donatists so did they withstand the Donatists them selues both by their communion with the Catholikes and by their doctrine And this is the point on the which S. Austin did cast his eye chiefly when he commended their succession As it appeereth farther by a reply that hee made to a Donatists epistle where hauing reckened vp all the Roman Bishops from Linus who succéeded Peter to Anastasius liuing then he concludeth with these wordes in the ranke of this succession there is not one Bishop found that was a Donatist Wherewithall ifwe consider how they maintained the truth against the heresies of Carpocrates Valentinus Marcion Sabellius Macedonius Photinus Apollinaris and the rest of those miscreants who vndermined the foundation of the Christian faith the doctrine of the blessed Trinitie the reason will be manifest why to moue the Donatists by the succession of the Bishops of Rome and their autoritie S. Austin gaue it this prayse that the gates of hell did not preuaile against it Hart. Well The succession then of the Roman Bishops is vsed by S. Austin for a certaine marke of the Catholike religion of the true Church and of the right faith Neither onely by S. Austin but by the rest of the Fathers too For Epiphanius alleageth it against the Carpocratians let no man maruaile saith he that we rehearse al thinges so exactly for that which is manifest in faith is thereby shewed And Tertullian hauing said of them selues in Afrike that they haue autority from the Church of Rome doth teach that the succession of that Church and See is to be set against all heretikes And Irenaeus reckening vp all the Roman Bishops in order from Peter to Eleutherius of his time doth adde that it is a most ample declaration of the Apostolike faith to be of his side against the Valentinians And Optatus reckneth farther from Peter to Siricius of his time against the Donatists As likewise S. Austin farther yet from Peter to Anastasius of his time that he saith much more surely and to the soules health in deed Wherefore the Church of Rome and we who are of that Church haue an assured warrant that the faith which we professe is the true faith For we haue the succession of the Roman Bishops from Peter to Gregory the thirtenth of our time which is an inuincible fort against all heretikes as the Fathers Epiphanius Tertullian Irenaeus Optatus and Austin testifie Rainoldes You will neuer leaue to daly with the Church of Rome as Tullie did with Maistresse Fabia The succession of the Roman Bishops is a proofe of the true faith for so it was in the time of Austin Epiphanius Optatus Tertullian Irenaeus twelue hundred yeares ago vpwarde Succession was a proofe of the true faith till Bishops who varied from the truth succéeded euen as sheepes clothing was a marke of true Prophets till false Prophets came in it But neither are true Prophets knowne now by shéepes clothing nor the true faith by succession The succession of Bishops was a proofe of true faith not in the Church of Rome alone but in all while they who succéeded the Apostles in place succéeded them in doctrine too kept that which Paule deliuered to Timothee Timothee to others But when rauening woolues were gotten into the roomes of pastours and that was fulfilled which Paul foretold the Bishops of Ephesus of your own selues there shall arise men speaking peruerse thinges to draw disciples after them then succession ceased to be a proofe of true faith for that it was no longer peculiar to the truth but common to it with errour and so a marke of neither because a marke of both This difference of succession betwene the later age and the former the primitiue churches time and ours is manifest by the Fathers them selues whom you alleage For Irenaeus to beginne with the most auncient of them saith that the succession of Bishops in all Churches through the whole world doth keepe and teach that doctrine which the Apostles deliuered Now it doth not so nor hath these many ages since Irenaeus died Hath it Hart. Not in all Churches But in the Church of Rome it doth and hath and shall for euer Rainoldes But if you would say as much for al Churches you might proue it as wisely out of Irenaens as you doo for the Church of Rome Hart. I deny that For he doth not fetch the succession of true doctrine but from the Church of Rome against the Valentinians Rainoldes D. Stapleton told you so and you beleeued it I know not whether I should more pitie your credulitie or detest his impudencie who hath abused you with such lewde vntruthes and that against his owne knowledge vnlesse he knew not what he had writen himselfe For him selfe had cited the wordes of Irenaeus which auouch the contrarie to wéete we can recken them who were ordeined Bishops by the Apostles in the Churches their successours vntill our time who taught not any such thing and so foorth But for as much as it would be verie long to recken the successions of all Churches we declare the faith of the greatest the most auncient and famous Church of Rome Which faith hath continued vntill our time by the successions of Bishops And againe the true knowledge is the doctrine of the Apostles and the auncient state of the Church in the whole world and the forme of Christes body according to the successions of Bishops vnto whom they did commit the Church which is in euery place which hath continued vntill our time being kept and so foorth By the which sentences it is plaine that Irenaeus although he recken not the successions of all Churches because it
and loosing giuen Peter as though after Peter it were proper to the Pope Denys saith the contrarie that it is common to all Bishops Whereby you may perceiue beside that if the title which he giueth Peter did proue his supremacie though I haue shewed it doth not but if it did yet your commoÌ„ reason from Peters supremacie to the Popes is iointlesse For he who calleth Peter chiefe of the Apostles yet maketh Bishops equal and giueth Rome no greater priuilege then Antioche or Ierusalem But to knit vp that which brought vs vnto this of Denys you sée that your Rhemists tale of the assumption of the blessed virgin is contrarie to the scriptures Yet they doo beléeue it for the authoritie of Fathers That I might dout iustly whether you would beléeue the Fathers in those things in which they are conuicted of errour by the scriptures Hart. I cannot beléeue that the scriptures are against it For the Church doth holde it I meane the Catholike Church of Rome Rainoldes In that your Rhemists lauish too For though the lying Greekes as your Molanus calleth them doo vouch it very boldly yet the Latin writers do say it is vncertaine Yea the verie Martyrologe of the Roman Church affirmeth that the Church celebrateth the memory of S. Maries death but where it hath pleased God to hide her body the Churches sobrietie hath chosen rather to be ignorant therof religiously then to holde and teach some friuolous thing forged How much the more shamefull is the misdemeanor first of a Papist who saith that it is certaine she was assumpted by death not onely in soule but in body also then of the Pope who setting foorth his new Portesse saith that those things which are vncertaine are put out where this is left in which they can not denie themselues to be vncertaine But your Rhemists passe Who as though the Porâ—esse were not bolde enough in alleaging Damascene though it mende his tale with more then one lye they take that which their Portesse doth tell them lye and al and father it vpon S. Denys that it may haue the greater credit Hart. Our Rhemists will render good account I dout not of this which they haue writen when they shall heare what is said against it And that which you declared out of the holy scriptures concerning the time of S. Denys conuersion which is the greatest argument that you brought yet to disproue the storie auouched of his preseÌ„ce at the departure of our Lady I must referre to them For I my selfe know not indéede how to accord it But why do you presse that point about the Fathers touching their ouerseeing ether the wordes or meaning or consequent of the scriptures We are past the scriptures and proofes that the Fathers do gather out of them Rainoldes But if they may gather amisse out of the scriptures and ouershoote them selues in the word of God they may be deceiued in the word of man too and either not conceiue well or not remember well or not conclude well of it Which hapned to S. Ierom in that same point that I reproued a litle rather in Eusebius For he reckning Philo the Iew amongst the Christian ecclesiastical writers doth it he saith for this reason because Philo writing a booke touching the first Church planted by the Euangelist S. Mark in Alexandria hath praised the Christians reporting them to be not onely there but in many countries and calling their dwelling places Monasteries Whereby it is apparant that the Church of beleeuers in Christ at the first was such as moonkes endeuour and seeke to be now that nothing is any mans owne in proprietie none is rich amongst them none poore their patrimonies are distributed to the needy they giue them selues wholy to prayer and to singing of Psalmes and to learning and to continencie of life such as S. Luke also doth write that the beleeuers were first at Ierusalem And this booke of Philo touching the life of our men that is of men Apostolike is entitled of the contemplatiue life of men that pray because they did contemplate studie and meditate heauenly things and prayed to God alwayes Thus farre S. Ierom. Wherein that the pointes of contemplation and prayer being somewhat like in them whom Philo wrote off and in the Christian Church did make him to mistake the one for the other as likenes they say is the mother of error but that they were not Christians whom Philo meant in that booke it may appeere by foure circumstances of names of deedes of times and of places For they of whom Philo doth write were called Essees which was a sect of Iewes of whom some liued in action and some in contemplation The Christians were neuer knowne by name of Essees either contemplatiue or actiue Againe they in Philo did leaue their goods and substance to their sonnes or daughters or kinsemen or if they had no kinsemen to their friendes The Christians gaue them to the poore and such as stood in need of succour Moreouer the solemne day which they in Philo did meete together publikely to heare the word of God taught was the seuenth day of the weeke which was the Sabbat of the Iewes the saterday as we cal it The Christians were wont to meete on the first day of the weeke that is sonday the Lordes day as S. Iohn termeth it Finally they whom Philo discourseth of did liue in no towne or citie but without in gardens and solitarie places The Christians liued in cities Euen they who are namely mentioned by Ierom I meane the Christian Church placed by S. Marke in Alexandria were planted in the citie Alexandria it selfe whereas it is precisely noted by Philo that his Iewish moonkes did dwell about it and without it Wherefore it is manifest that Ierom did mistake or had forgot the wordes of Philo. Howbeit if he had both well conceiued and remembred them yet he thereof inferred amisse that the moonkes in his time were such as S. Luke doth write that the beleeuers were first at Ierusalem For the beleeuers at Ierusalem might keepe their owne if they listed as Peter saith to Ananias while it remained perteined it not to thee And when it was sold was it not in thine own power But Ierom saith that his moonks may not haue proprietie in any thing of their owne Beside the moonkes of Ierom did liue in continencie The beléeuers at Ierusalem had wiues vsed them for any thing that S. Luke sheweth Though by the way to note the difference betwéene the Iewish moonkes the Christian who els would be too like some of the Christian moonks in Ieroms time had wiues did beget childreÌ„ which I haue not read that anie of the Iewish did Last of all the moonkes whom Ierom doth meane as he must néedes by Philo were moonkes according to their
them and the Pope hath robbed them The ninth Chapter 1 The Church is the piller ground of the truth The common consent and practise of the Church before the Nicen Councell 2 the Councell of Nice 3 of Antioche of Sardica of Constantinople Mileuis Carthage Afrike 4 of Ephesus of Chalcedon of Constantinople est soones and of Nice of Constance and of Basill with the iudgements of Vniuersities and seuerall Churches throughout Christendome condemning all the Popes supremacie HART The Church doth acknowledge the doctrine of the Popes supremacie to be catholike Wherefore you doe euill to touch it with the name of Papistrie For the Church is the piller and ground of the truth Rainoldes The Church is the pillar and ground of the truth in office and dutie and the Priest is the messenger of the Lord of hostes But as there were Priestes who did not their message in shewing Gods will so there may be Churches which shall not vpholde and mainetayne the truth Hart. Nay that is true still which the Church teacheth For S. Paul sayth not that it ought to be the piller ground of the truth but that it is so Rainoldes Neither doth Malachie say that the Priest ought to be the messenger of the Lord of hostes but that hée is so And what is the occasion wherevpon S. Paule sayth that and to whom Hart. To Timothee that he might know how he ought to conuerse in the house of God which is the Church of the liuing God Rainoldes The Church then which Timothee was conuersant in and must behaue himselfe according to his charge in gouernment thereof is called by S. Paule the piller and grounde of the truth Hart. It is and what then Rainoldes But the Church which Timothee was conuersant in was the Church of Ephesus The Church of Ephesus then is called the piller and ground of the truth Now the Church of Ephesus hath condemned the doctrine of the Popes supremacie nor only that Church but other of the East too Wherefore if that be true still which the Church teacheth because S. Paule calleth it the piller and ground of the truth the doctrine of the Popes supremacie is wicked and Papistrie is heresie Hart. The Churches of the East haue erred therein But the West alloweth it for catholike doctrine And all the ancient Churches both of East and West did subscribe to it vntill schisme and heresie had seuered them one from the other Rainoldes That spéeche is as true as was the former of the Fathers For except the crew of the Italian faction who haue aduanced the Pope that they might raigne with him all Christian Churches haue condemned his vsurped soueraintie and do till this day Hart. All Christian Churches who did euer say so before you or what one witnesse haue you of it Rainoldes The Pastors and Doctours in Synodes and Councels wherein they tooke order for their Church-gouernment ech in their seuerall ages For to begin with the ancientst and so come downe to our owne it was in Cyprians tyme ordeined by them al that euery mans cause should be heard there where the fault was committed Hart. That must be vnderstoode of the first handling of causes not the last For they might be heard at Rome vpoÌ„ appeales if being heard at home first the parties were not satisfied Rainoldes The cause of the parties mentioned in Cyprian was heard at home alreadie by the Bishops of Afrike who excommunicated them Yet he reproueth them for running to Rome Wherefore the ordinaunce that he groundeth on did prouide for hearing and determining of causes both first last and all against such as appealed if you so tearme it to Rome Which he maketh plainer yet in that he calleth those Rome-appealers home if vpon repentaunce they séeke to be restored and sayth that they ought to pleade their cause there where they may haue accusers and witnesses of their fault and that other Bishops ought not to retract thinges done by them of Afrike vnlesse a few lewde desperate persons thinke the Bishops of Afrike to haue lesse autoritie by whom they were iudged alreadie and condemned Hart. When Cyprian denieth that the Bishops of Afrike are of lesse authoritie you must not imagine that he compareth them with the Bishop of Rome but with the Bishops of Fraunce Spaine Greece or Asia and chiefly of Numâ—dia Rainoldes You were better say as a Iesuit doth that Cyprian hath no such thing then answer so absurdly For it is too manifest that he compareth them with such as the parties whom they had coÌ„demned did run to for remedie And that was Cornelius Bishop then of Rome It was ordeined therfore by all the Bishops of Afrike Italie and others in the primitiue Church that the Pope should not be the supreme iudge of ecclesiasticall causes Hart. Why doth S. Cyprian then desire Pope Stephen to depose Martian a Nouatian heretike Bishop of Arle in Fraunce and to substitute an other in his roome a Catholike Rainoldes Nay why doe your men say that S. Cyprian doth so whereas he doth not For he desireth Stephen to write to the Bishops of Fraunce to depose him and to the prouince and people of Arle to choose a new Both which things are disproofes of the Popes supremacie Who neither could depose Bishops at that time as also the Cardinal of Aliaco noteth misliking that the Pope alone doth now depose them which then a Synode did neither when a Bishop was orderly deposed could he create an other but the people of the citie and Bishops of the prouince chose him Yea a Bishop chosen by them was lawfull Bishop though the Pope confirmed him not yea though he disallowed him as it is declared by a Councell of Afrike against the same Pope Stephen Wherefore Cyprian meant not that he might depose and substitute a Bishop but ought to giue his neighbours counsell to doe it for the common dutie that euery pastour oweth to all the sheepe of Christ to helpe them when they are in daunger And thus sith the ordinances of the primitiue Church deharred the Pope from the soueraine power of iudging deposing creating Bishops nor from this only but other ecclesiasticall causes as I shewed it foloweth that the primitiue Church did denie the supremacie of the Pope or to say it with the wordes of Cardinal Siluius Before the Councell of Nice men liued ech to himselfe and there was small regard had to the Church of Rome Hart. Yet there was a Councâ—l holden at Sinuessa or Suessa as some say before the Councel of Nice And there wheÌ„ Marcellinus the Pope was accused for offring incense vnto idols the Bishops sayd that he might be iudged of no man Which is a manifest token of their allowing his supremacie Rainoldes That Councell is a counterfeit As you may perceaue by that it reporteth that Diocletian
and our Church doth hold The third Councell of Carthage which therein the Councel of Trent subscribeth to did adde the bookes of Maccabes the rest of the apocrypha to the old Canon The Councel of Nice appointed boundes and limits as wel for the Bishop of Romes iurisdiction as for other Bishops The Councell of Lateran gaue the soueraintie of ordinarie power to the Church of Rome ouer al other Churches The Councell of Constance decréed that the Councell is aboue the Pope and made the Papall power subiect to generall Councels Which thing did so highly displease the Councell of Florence that it vndermined the Councell of Basill and guilefully surprised it for putting that in â—re against Pope Eugenius Upon the which pointes it must needes be graunted that one side of these generall Councels did erre vnlesse we will say that thinges which are contrarie may be true both Wherefore to make an end sith it is apparant by most cléere proofes that both the chosen and the called both the flockes and the Pastours both in seuerall by them selues and assembled together in generall Councels may erre I am to conclude with the good liking I hope of such as loue the truth that the militant Church may erre in maners and doctrine In the one point whereof concerning maners I defend our selues against the malicious sclanders of the Papists who charge the Church of England with the heresie of Puritans impudently and falsly In the other concerning doctrine I doo not touch the walles of Babilon with a light finger but raze from the very ground the whole mount of the Romish Synagogue Whose intolerable presumption is reproued by the third Conclusion too wherein it resteth to be shewed that the holy scripture is of greater credit autoritie then the Church And although this be so manifestly true that to haue proposed it onely is to haue proued it yet giue me leaue I pray to proue it briefly with one reason I will not trouble you with many All the wordes of scripture be the wordes of truth some wordes of the Church be the words of errour But he that telleth the truth alwayes is more to be credited then he that lyeth sometimes Therefore the holy scripture is to be credited more then is the Church That all the wordes of scripture be the wordes of truth it is out of controuersie For the whole scripture is inspired of God and God can neither deceiue nor be deceiued That some wordes of the Church be the wordes of errour if any be not perswaded perhaps by the reasons which I haue brought already let him heare the sharpese and most earnest Patrone of the Church confessing it Andradâ—us Payua a Doctor of Portugall the best learned man in my opinion of all the papists reherseth certaine pointes wherein Councels also may erre euen generall Councels in so much that he saith that the very generall Councel of Chalcedon one of those four first which Gregorie professeth him selfe to receiue as the foure bookes of the holy Gospell yet Andradius saith that this Councell erred in that it did rashly and without reason these are his own wordes ordeine that the Church of Constantinople should be aboue the Churches of Alexandria and Antiâ—â—he Neither doth he onely say that the Councell of Chalcedon erred and contraried the decrees of the Nicen Cuncell but he addeth also a reason why Councels may erre in such cases to weete because they folow not the secret motion of the holy ghost but idle Blastes of vaine reportes and mens opinions which deceiue oft A Councell then may folow some times the deceitfull opinions of men and not the secret motion of the holy ghost Let the Councels then giue place to the holy scriptures whereof no part is vttered by the spirit of man but all by the spirit of God For if some cauiller to shift of this reason shall say that we must not account of that errour as though it were the iudgement of the generall Councell because the Bishop of Rome did not allow it and approue it I would request him first of all to weigh that a generall Councell and assemblie of Bishops must néedes be distinguished from this and that particular Bishop so that what the greater part of them ordeineth that is ordeined by the Councell next to consider that the name of Church may be giuen to an assemblis of Bishops and a Councell but it can not be giuen to the Bishop of Rome lastly to remember that the Bishop of Rome Honorius the first was condemned of heresie by the generall Councell of Constantinople allowed and approued by Agatho Bishop of Rome Wherefore take the name of Church in what sense soeuer you list be it for the company either of Gods chosen or of the called too or of the guides and Pastours or be it for the Bishop of Rome his owne person though to take it so it seemeth very absurd the Bishop of Rome him selfe if he were to be my iudge shall not be able to deny vnlesse his forhead be of adamant but that some of the Churches words are wordes of errour Now if the Bishop of Rome and Romanistes them selues be forced to confesse both that the Church saith some things which are erroneous and that the scripture saith nothing but cleere truth shall there yet be found any man either so blockishly vnskilfull or so frowardly past shame as that he dare affirme that the Church is of greater credit and autoritie then the holy scripture Pighius hath doon it in his treatise of the holy gouernment of the church Where though he in 〈◊〉 â—â—llify with gallant salues his cursed spéech yet to build the tower of his Church and Antichrist with the ruines of Christ and of the holy scripture first he saith touching the writings of the Apostles that they were giuen to the church not that they should rule our faith and religion but that they should bee ruled rather and then he concludeth that the autoritie of the church is not onely not inferiour not onely equall nay it is superiour also after a sort to the autoritie of the scriptures Plinie reporteth that there was at Rome a certaine diall set in the field of Flora to note the shadowes of the sunne the notes and markes of which diall had not agreed with the sunne for the space of thirty yeares And the cause thereof was this as Plinie saith that either the course of the sunne was disordered and changed by some meanes of heauen or els the whole earth was slipt away from her centre The Church of Rome séemeth to be very like this diall in the field of Flora. For she was placed in the Roman territorie to shew the shadowes of the sunne euen of the sunne of righteousnes that is of Christ but her notes and markes haue not agreed with Christ these many yeares togither Not that
from Papias also by one as good as himselfe euen by Clemens Alexandrinus Wherefore I know what credit it hath what truth I know not For if Cassiodorus Rhegino Ado and all the ecclesiasticall histories haue erred in saying that Peter did abide at Rome fiue and twentie yeares which errour they were caried into by Eusebius or whosoeuer first reported it why might they not also be deceyued in this point by the report of Papias or some who had it from Papias Though if it be true that S. Marke was Peters scholer at Rome yet this proueth not that he meant Rome by the name of Babylon For Peter saith onely the Church which is in Babylon Marke my sonne salute you Now Marke as your Papias also doth report did follow and accompanie Peter in his trauel So that he might be with him as well at Babylon in Chaldaea as in Italie at Rome Wherefore whether Peter were at Rome or no the proofe therof resteth vpon humane histories For this of Gods word whereby you would proue it faine saith nothing for it Which a learned man of our side hauing weighed and séeing the dissension of writers touching the time that hee came to Rome and knowing by the scripture that their spéeche of his abode in Rome is false and marking the shamefull practise of the Romanists in forging tales for their aduancement as Constantines donation and spying some such forgerie amongst their monuments of Peter as Linus fable of his death and finding his martyrdome mentioned by Ierom and Lyra in such sort as though he had béene crucified by the Scribes and Pharises he was brought by these the like perswasions into this opinion that Peter neuer came to Rome If you aske my iudgement I thinke he was deceiued therein And so doo many mo None of all the Protestants who haue dealt in writing of histories Chronicles to my knowledge one excepted denyeth that he was at Rome They who are straitest in it doo say it may be doubted it is no article of our faith and either he was not there or at another time then most autors thinke and lesse then fiue and twentie yeares Wherein what doo they say but that which is most true and manifest The greater wrong you doo vs to charge vs in general that we holde that Peter was neuer at Rome And to aggrauate the matter you muster vp the names of the ancient Fathers as though we did bande our selues against them all Whereas in verie déede they whom you count our captaines doo therefore graunt Peter to haue béene at Rome because the ancient Fathers affirme it so with one consent Yea some of them expounding those same wordes of Peter apply the name of Babylon to Rome as you doo some who allow not of that exposition yet graunt hée was at Rome And so the reproch of shamelesse partialitie which you cast on vs redoundeth on your selues For if you had any modestie and equitie you would neuer say that we denye Rome to be meant by Babylon because it would follow that Peter was at Rome and so forth Specially sith neyther all of vs deny it and many who denye it yet deny not but Peter was at Rome But whereas you adde that we deny it fearing hereby the sequele of Peters or the Popes supremacie at Rome therein you passe your selues in impudencie For we doo confesse and you too I trust that Peter was at Ioppe And doo we or rather you feare hereby the sequele of Peters or the Popes supremacie at Ioppe Hart. No because we reade not that he was Bishop of Ioppe We reade that he was Bishop of Rome Rainoldes But you can not proue it by those words of Peter which you would ground it on although it were graunted that he meant Rome by Babylon For the most that might be proued so therby is that he was at Rome Which furthereth no more the Pope of Rome then of Ioppe And thus you may sée what tragedies you make for how small trifles when you lay so heinous a crime to our charge for denying that which although we graunt we neyther winne nor lose by it Hart. But if he were at Rome it will be the likelyer that he was Bishop there And that hee was so Eusebius sheweth in his Chronicle Rainoldes I perceyue the Pope must fetch his supremacie from earth and not from heauen You are fallen againe from scripture to Eusebius Against whose autoritie I might take exception because he saith that Peter continued bishop of Rome preaching the gospel there fiue and twentie yeares which I haue proued to be vntrue Though if I may speake mine owne coniecture of it the difference of the Chronicle and historie of Eusebius concerning that point doth moue mee to thinke that it was not writen by Eusebius but by Ierom. For he in translating the Chronicle of Eusebius did enterlace some thinges which séemed to be omitted chiefely in the Roman storie Now Ierom might receiue it from Damasus bishop of Rome on whom he attended as a secretarie And Damasus was not so voide of all affection but he could be content to aduance the credit of his owne Sée by helping it to be reputed the bishoply See of Peter But whether Eusebius or Ierom or Damasus or whosoeuer haue saide that Peter was a Bishop either they vsed the name of Bishop generally and so it proueth not your purpose or if they meant it as commōly we do they missed the truth For generally a Bishop is an ouerseer In which signification it reacheth to all who are put in trust with ouersight charge of any thing as Eleazar is called Bishop of the tabernacle Christ the Bishop of our soules But in our cōmon vse of spéech it noteth him to whō the ouersight charge of a particular Church is committed such as were the Bishops of Ephesus of Philippi and they whom Christ calleth the Angels of the Churches Now Peter was not Bishop after this later sort for he was an Apostle and the Apostles were sent to preach to all the world Wherefore when the Fathers said he was a Bishop either they meant it in the former sense or ought to haue meant it This is somewhat harder to be perceiued by Ierom but others open it more plainely For he reckeneth Peter the first Bishop of Rome Linus the second Cletus the third Clemens the fourth and so the rest successiuely as likewise in Antioche Ignatius the third whereby Euodius is the second and Peter the first But Eusebius nameth Euodius the first Bishop of Antioche Ignatius the secōd and Irenaeus nameth Linus the first Bishop of Rome Cletus the second and so forth Whereby they declare that in their iudgement although Peter preached at Antioche and Rome both yet he was neither
the chaire of Moses but in the chaire of Christ doo the Priests sit for they haue receiued his doctrine Which point vnlesse your former argument were naught will proue that Priestes cannot erre no more then Popes For they who sit in Christes chaire haue greater prerogatiue then they who sate in the chaire of Moses Priestes then Scribes and Pharises The Scribes and the Pharises were to be obeied in all things which they said The Priestes must bee therefore much more obeied in all things But if they should erre then ought they not to be obeied Therefore they cannot erre in any thing they say Acknowledge you the forme of your owne argument Doth not the conclusion folow as necessarily here as there And thinke you M. Hart that Priestes cannot erre Thinke you that your selfe are of this perfection that wée ought to obey both you and your companions in all thinges which you say Or if you thinke not so fondly of them so proudly of your selfe as I hope you do not then leaue Doctor Stapletons exposition which inferreth it which he patcheth vp with the wordes of Austin Chrysostome and Origen whereas not one of them meant it Yéelde rather if you be wedded to Doctors of your owne side vnto their authoritie then whom the Church of Rome hath none of greater knowledge and perfiter iudgement for right interpreting of the scriptures I meane Iohn Ferus Arias Montanus Of whom the one saith that Christ taught his disciples to obserue and doo whatsoeuer the Scribes and the Pharises commanded by the prescript of the law that is out of the chaire of Moses the other that he chargeth vs to obey euil prelates yet withall he addeth how farre we must obey them Do ye saith he all things which they shall say vnto you but he had told them first they sit vpon the chaire of Moses For Christ did not meane that they should obserue all the decrees of Pharises but so farre forth as they agreed with the law According whereunto when he had shewed before also that they taught contrarie to the law in some pointes after certaine things touched betweene he added Beware of the leauen of the Pharises In like sort he said to the Apostles and their successours Hee that heareth you heareth me and he that despiseth you despiseth me and it shall be easier for the land of Sodom in the day of iudgement then for them who shall not receiue you and heare your wordes But Matthew had set downe before that Christ chose twelue whom he called Apostles and charged them to preach the gospell Whereby it appeereth that the Apostles must be heard but so farre forth as they be Apostles that is as they doo Christes worke and preach and teach the thinges which Christ commanded But if they teach other thinges and contrarie to Christ then are they not Apostles now but seducers and therefore not to be heard O the great light of truth which forceth euen the aduersaries not onely to perceiue it but also to reueale it often So will it force you too if you haue so much grace as Ferus and Montanus had Hart. So much grace as to say that if the Apostles teach thinges contrarie to Christ they are no Apostles now but seducers Doo you allow that spéech of Ferus And might the Apostles be seducers Rainoldes Peter an Apostle might say vnto Christ when he heard him speake of suffering at Ierusalem Maister pitie thy selfe this shall not be vnto thee And Christ would not therefore haue called him Satan had he not thought him a seducer Hart. But Christ did giue them afterwarde the holy ghost in greater abundance from heauen when he sent them to preach vnto all the world Rainoldes But Christ had told them before that it should be easier for Sodom and Gomorrha then for the citie that shold not heare their wordes Yet Christ himselfe refused to heare the wordes of Peter Wherefore the exposition of Ferus is good that Christ meant those wordes which he had willed them to preach that is the gospell Beside that Ferus speaketh not onely of Apostles but also of their successours Now though the Apostles were priuileged afterwarde by the speciall graces of the holy ghost to teach the truth in all thinges yet Bishops who succeeded them haue not that priuilege You must renounce therfore that erroneous expositioÌ„ which knitteth an assured truth of faith and doctrine to the succession of the Apostles and bindeth vs in all thinges to obey them who succeede into the seate of the Apostles and saith that he who sitteth in the chaire of the Apostles doth speake not his owne thinges but the thinges of God For our Sauiour meant that the Scribes Pharises ought to be obeied in al things which they taught out of the law of God not that they câ—uld not erre in faith and doctrine because they did succeede Aaron Hart. I cannot conceiue but that he meant to cléere their doctrine from errour For his wordes of doing that which they say because they sit in the chaire of Moses are rather a warraÌ„t for them in all thinges which they teach then a restraint for others how farre they must obey them Rainoldes His wordes belong properly to the instruction of hearers that they despise not the doctrine of God for the fautes of teachers So are they both a warrant and a restraint by consequent A warrant for teachers to be obeied in all things which they shall say out of the law A restraint for hearers not to doo those thinges whiâ—h the teachers say if they shall teach against the law As letters of credence geuen by Princes vnto their embassadours doo warrant them for their commission restraine them if they goe beyond it Hart. But the commission here is generall for all thinges that concerne teachers For Christ expresly sâ—ith obserue ye and doo ye Now we obserue pointes of faith we doo precepts of maners Wherefore whatsoeuer the Scribes and Pharises taught either of faith or maners they were to be obeyed in it Rainoldes That were a pretie proofe for your traditions of both sortes if it had ground in the text But to obserue and doo are both referred by Christ to the same thinges as he sheweth by comprising them first in the one worde then in the other All thinges whatsoeuer they say you must obserue obserue ye and doo ye but after their workes doo not for they say and doo not So it séemeth that to fasten his lesson of obeying the commandements of God which the Scribes and Pharises taught out of Moses he doubleth as it were his stroke by saying both obserue ye and doo ye Wherein he might expresse and call to their remembrance that which he doth commend of Moses who doubleth oft the same wordes in vrging of the same doctrine To be short
should now be subiect to him who raigned in the imperiall citie as it had béene afore time to the Emperour In this consideration he moued warre against Stephen the successour of Zacharie Pope Stephen remembring his predecessors benefite bestowed on king Pipine went to him into France and putting him in minde of Zacharies good turne prayed him to vndertake the quarell of S. Peter and of the common wealth of Rome against the Lombards Yea in an assemblie of the Nobles of France whom Pipine called together to know what they would say thereto the Pope did not onâ—ly exhort them to warre that they might recouer Rauenna and the Emperours land from the Lombards but also was importuâ—â—te with them that they should not restore it to the Emperour For he said the Emperour was vnworthie of it because hee had forsaken the defense of Italie and was an enimie to the Church But if that king Pipine would either doo the dutie of a thankfull man or prouide for his soule health or rewarde the Popes labour he should bestow Rauenna and the dominion of it with the rest of that dition by way of gift vpon S. Peter This sermon as soone as Pope Stephen had made the French men agréed to warre against the Lombards Pipine protested that if he conquered them he would for obteining the forgiuenesse of his sinnes giue Rauenna with the dominion and dition ioyning to it vnto S. Peter his successouâ—s According to which vow when he was come into Italy and the Emperour sent him Embassadours with presents desiring him if he recouered that dition and dominion to graunt it vnto him and not vnto the Pope he answered that being moued thereunto not with humane rewardes but with desire of meriting the fauour of God he had receyued the church of Rome into protection because he was perswaded that it would be auailable to the saluation of his soule and the forgiuenes of his sinnes and sith hee had sworne that he would graunt giue it vnto S. Peter and his successours therefore he must performe it Which as he saide so he did Neither did he geue it vnto them more willingly then his sonne Charles the great confirmed the gift and added more to it when he had made a full conquest of the Lombards brought into subiection the kingdom of Italy Howbeit though the Popes were now become mightie with spoyles of the Emperour and had cast off his yoke from them yet were they still subiect to Charles the great king of Italie and France whom afterwarde they called the Emperour of the Romanes as the other the Greeke Emperour For though Charles gaue the countries to the Pope yet hee reserued the right soueraintie and roialtie thereof to him selfe And when his race decaying Otho the great had gotten the Italian kingdome Rome and the rest of the Popes dominions regarded the Pope as Prince of the common wealth but the king or Emperour as their soueraine Lord and did yéeld tributes and seruices to him So that the Pope was but a vasall to the Emperour and held of him in fée The chiefest meanes whereby they cast of this yoke also was excommunication not Christian but Papall excommunication such as they had practized against the Gréeke Emperour Pope Gregorie the seuenth was the beast that did it The occasion was the giuing of Bishoprickes and church-liuings which the Popes themselues had graunted to the Emperours Charles and Otho yea the giuing of the Bishopricke of Rome and choosing Popes But when they had gotten of them that they sought and were growne lustie and fatt by their meanes they saw that the giuing of Bishoprickes and church-liuings did abate that power to which they aspired Wherefore vnder colour that the Emperours gaue them not fréely but for mony they taught that lay men ought not to giue them at all and cursed both the giuers and receiuers of them Hereupon there arose great strife betwéene the Pope and the Emperour Henrie the third in the flames whereof Pope Gregorie the seuenth did by the right of S. Peters authoritie depriue him of his whole Empire discharge his subiects of their oth and forbidde them to obey him The Princes of Germanie not knowing the boundes either of S. Peters authoritie or of the Popes thought them selues bound to disobey their Emperour and so rebelled against him Pitifull and lamentable were the griefes and contumelies which the poore Emperour was faine to endure betweene the Pope and Papistes while sundrie waies he sought to retaine his state But in fine Rodulph a Duke one of his subiectes was chosen Emperour against him The Pope to strengthen Rodulph sent him a kingly crowne and pricking him forward to defend valiantly the Church against Henrie did graunt in the name of Peter and Paule a pardon and forgiuenes of all sinnes both in this life and in the life to come to all that were obedient and faithfull vnto him When that would not sâ—rue for the newe Emperour was staine by Henrie in the field his owne naturall children were raised against their father first Conrade the eldest then Henrie the next Which Henrie spoiled him at last of the Empire and brought him to such miserie that he was faine to begge meat and drinke of the Bishop of Spier in a Church which him selfe had built promising to earne it by doing there a clerkes duetie for hee could serue the quire And not obteining that he pined away and died for sorow This dreadfull example of Henrie the third aduaunced much the credit of the Popes authoritie The more because that when Vecilo the chiefest Bishop of the Germanes had denyed in the time of those sturres and troubles that the Emperour might be depriued of his crowne and kingdom by the Pope there was a Councel gathered in which the Popes legate being present at it Vecilo was condemned of heresie for that opinion For when the doctrine also was receiued besids the practise that the Pope might lawfully depose kings and Emperours it made the tallest cedars of Libanus to shake and to feare the bramble least fyre should come out from him and consume them Which appeered in Henrie the fourth the next Emperour Who though he began to tread his fathers steppes and tooke Pope Paschal prisoner whereby they grewe to composition confirmed by the Popes othe that Bishops and Abbats chosen by free voices should be inuested with ring and stafâ—e by the Emperour without Simonie and being so inuested might lawfully receiue consecration of their archbishop but he who were chosen by the clergie and people and not inuested by the Emperour should be consecrated of no man yet when he was set at libertie againe and breaking his couenants 〈…〉 with open periurie condemned both the graunt which he had made to the Emperour and the Emperour himselfe and that with the consent of many Bishops of sundrie prouâ—â—â—es
in two Councels held at Rome the Emperour afraid of his fathers ende was glad to surrender the graunt of Pope Paschal into the hands of Pope Calistus and to restore him the possessions and royalties of S. Peter Thus was the Pope nâ—w become at the least the Emperours péere One policie there is left whereby he became the Emperours Lord. When Charles the great king of â—raunce by inheritance of Italie by conquest had after great benefites bestowed on the Papacie restored Pope Leo cast out by the Romans and come himselfe in person to Rome to see him setled the Pope in recompense and token of a thankefull minde thought good to honour him with the title of Emperour Which he did with ioly ceremonies and solemnitie laying an imperiall robe vpon his bodie a crowne of gold vpon his head anoynting him as Sadok did Salomon with oyle the people crying out thrise with ioyfull shoutes God saue Charles the great the godly Emperour of the Romans This honour the posteritie of Charles which succéeded him some times the Pope desired them sometimes themselues desired and vsed to receiue with the like solemnitie and holy pompe at Rome as their father had In processe of time the race of Charles lost the kingdome of Italie and Otho the German got it as Charles did by conquest Otho was crowned Emperour with the like solemnitie And from that time forward he that was king of Germanie held also the kingdome of Italie with the westerne Empire and therefore did receiue three crownes one of Germanie at Aken by the Bishop of Mens an other of Italie at Milan by the Bishop of Milan the third of the Empire at Rome by the Pope Neither did he vse the title of Emperour before the Pope had crouned him but was called the king of Germanie and Italie or the king of Romans and Emperour appointed But the Pope as a wise and politike Prince turned this point of ceremonie into a point of substance when he saw his time and because he gaue the title of Emperour and set a crowne on Emperours heads he sought to perswade men that he gaue the Empire and right of the crowne The time fit to doo it was when the troubles of the two Henries and the Councels sentence against Bishop Vecilo had bredde an opinion that the Pope had right to depose Emperours For thereof men would gather that he had right to make them also Wherefore when Lotharius the next after the Henries was crowned Emperour at Rome Pope Innocent the second who set the crowne vpon him caused the dooing of it to be painted on a wall in his palace of Lateran and vnder the picture these verses to be writen Rex venit ante fores iurans prius vrbis honores Pòst homo fit Papae sumit quo dante coronam The king doth come before the gate first swearing to the cities state The Popes man then doth he become of his gift doth take the crowne So finely by the Popes painting and poetrie was the feate wrought and as it were the whéele of thinges turned about that whereas the Pope before held his Princedome of the Emperour in fee now must the Emperour be thought to hold his Empire of the Pope in â—ee For though it be said that Painters and Poets may faine by authoritie yet he and his mates wâ—o fained this pageant did meane it should be taken for a matter of truth The proofe whereof appeared not many yeares after in the next Emperour that was crowned at Rome euen Friderike the first The Pope who crowned him it was Pope Nicolas Breake-speare called Adrian the fourth sending by occasion two legates vnto him Rowland and Bernard Cardinals with letters concerning the thing for which hée sent them did mention therein what honorable curtesie hee had shewed the Emperour and giuen him this benefite that he bestowed the crowne of the Empire on him Which letters being read the Emperour and his Nobles tooke it very euill that the Pope should write that he had giuen the Emperour the crowne of the Empire by way of a benefite And fearing least thereby he should meane that which some auouched also commonly that the kinges of Germanie doo obteine the Empire by the benefite of the Popes for the picture verses in the Palace of Lateran did plainely signifie as much they could not containe their griefe but they must needes say that the Empire is not the Popes benefite To whom when Cardinall Rowland one of the legates replyed And whose is it then if it bee not the Popes Otho the Countie Palatine standing by was moued so with that spéech that he drew his sword and would haue slaine the Cardinall But the Emperour stayed him and willed the legates to get them backe to Rome straight and signified by letters throughout all Germanie what embassage the Pope had sent him adding that he acknowledged the Empire to be giuen him by God alone and by the Princes who had chosen him and therefore desired them that they would not suffer the maiestie of the Empire so worthily gotten by their auncestours to be empaired by their default The Pope vnderstanding by the returne of his legates both in what perill they had béene and what the Emperour answered wrote letters thereupon to the Bishops of Germanie wherein he willed them to deale with the Emperour make him do his duetie The Bishops spake vnto him he answered them that he obeied the Pope gladly but the crowne of the Empire hee accounted him selfe to haue receyued of God chiefly and next of the Princes Electours of Germanie his regall coronation of the Bishoppe of Cooleine his imperiall of the Pope As for the Cardinalls whom the Pope had sent hee forbad them to go forward because he found that they had brought letters from the Pope to the endamaging of the Empire Heretofore the Empire hath lifted vp the Church but now the Church saith he doth presse downe the Empire It began with painting thence it came to writing now is the writing sought to be maintained by autoritie I will not suffer nay I will rather leaue my crowne then I will permit the autoritie of the Empire to be diminished any way Let the picture be razed out let the writing be called backe that there remaine not monuments still to raise strife betweene the kingdome and the priesthood and then shall there no duty be wanting of my part towardes the church of Rome This answere of the Emperour séemed so reasonable to the German Bishops that they aduised and wished Pope Breake-speare to pacifie his wrath with a gentler embassage The Popes chiefest instruments to plucke downe Henry the third were the German Bishops Wherefore Pope Breake-speare perceyuing that they were not so forwarde against Friderike as they had béene against Henry was fâ—ine to folow their aduise So he sent two
he knew and furnished with the treasures of the Popes librarie to know the best that might be saide yet after many floorishes for Constantines donation of the largest sise he addeth in conclusion that the Pope Gregorie the third did excommunicate Leo the Emperour and caused Rome and Italie to rebell against him absoluing all his subiectes from their oth of fealtie And so he confuteth the lye which himselfe and Genebrard doo build on that Rome after Constantine was not the Emperours but the Popes and graunteth by consequent that the Popes temporall dominion in Italie was vnlawfully gotten and wrongfully vsurped by this deuise of treason Hart. Nay Genebrard hath other reasons to defend the right of the Pope if these doo not content men For I saith he answere to heretikes impugning the donation of Constantine that which Iephte did in the eleuenth of Iudges to the king of Ammonites requiring the land of Galaad to bee restored him we will possesse that which the Lord our God hath conquered and obteined Vnlesse perhaps thou canst shew that any man did striue about it for the space of three hundred yeares here for a thousand yeares and more Why so long time haue you attempted nothing for the recouerie of it Chiefly sith the prescription of certaine yeares sufficeth in groundes and possessions Moreouer the consent of Italie and of the Church and of the whole world is of force enough to giue the Pope that right Finally that Constantine remoued the seat of the earthly Empire to Constantinople through Gods speciall prouidence to the end that the kingdome of the Church forespoken of by Daniel the Prophet might haue his seate at Rome it appeareth by this that straight the westerne Emperours Constans and the rest who folowed for certaine ages left Rome still and placed the seate of the westerne Empire at Milan or Rauenna and also that Constantius the nephiew of Heraclius Michael and certaine others would haue brought it in againe to Rome but could not Wherefore howsoeuer the Popes dominion temporall began or whensoeuer it is sure that he hath right vnto it now Rainoldes The point that we reason of is not M. Hart what right he hath now but what wrong heretofore hee hath doone the Emperour to obteine this right Though neither can you proue his right by these reasons For that which Iephte spake of gotten by the Israelites they got by lawfull warre The Pope hath gotten his by vnlawfull treacherie And prescription holdeth not in thinges that are stollen and detained by force if you beleeue the law As for the thousand yeares and more which Genebrard addeth that no man stroue about it if he meane about Constantines donation no maruell if they stroue not about that which was not If he meane about that which Popes claime thereby it hath two vntruthes one that they haue helde it a thousand yeares and more an other that no man stroue with them about it For to passe ouer the Emperours before touched and namely Friderike the first the Romans them selues had many bickerings with them for the temporall rule and gouernment of the citie contending that the Pope should medle with the spirituall onely Whereby withall appeareth how vaine the bragge is of the consent of Italie the church and the whole world Though neither their consent can giue the Pope that right vnlesse the Roman Emperours the right owners of it do consent also And how they consent you may learne by late Emperours of whom one desired to recouer Rome and all the Popes dominion as being his of right an other did more then desire i◠or rather by late Popes who are afraide of nothing more then of the Emperours comming into Italie Now the last reason of Gods speciall prouidence remouing the seate of the westerne Empire to Constantinople to the end that the kingdom of the church forespoken of by Daniel the Prophet might haue his seate at Rome beside that it is seasoned after Genebrards maner with vntruth of storie as that the western Emperours who succeeded Constantine for certaine ages left Rome still which is disproued by Honorius it wresteth Gods worde to the maintenance of mans pride For the Churches kingdome which Daniel forespake of is the kingdome of the Iewes touching the temporall state touching the spirituall the kingdome of the Saintes that doth endure for euer And if we presume vpon the secret workes of the prouidence of God to gather what the fansie of man doth imagin not what the wisedom of God hath reuealed the Turkish impietie may bee as well proued as the Papall kingdom because as the seate of the westerne Empire is fallen to the Pope so Constantinople the seat of the Easterne is fallen to the Turke But whatsoeuer right these reasons may afforde to the Pope now they acquite him not from hauing doon wrong to the Emperours heretofore in that he got his temporall dominion from them by treason and rebellion And this is the first point wherein you went about to cléere his supremacie The next is his tyrannie in spirituall things Wherein your defense of him is so tempered that although you cannot choose but acknowledge his faute in those excesses which I laide open yet doo you smooth them as abuses onely of lawfull autoritie and not vnlawfull actes of vsurped power For you say that if any of the Bishops of Rome abused their wealth to any euill purpose or els their autoritie in any of the pointes mentioned by me you are so farre off from iustifying them therein that rather you rew to see it and you condemne them therefore A short and sclender answere to all their crimes that I touched Howbeit if you speake vnfainedly M. Hart as I pray God you doo I am glad that you seeke not to iustifie the Popes in any of the pointes that I charged them with but rew and condemne their abuses therein For I laide to their charge that they haue oppressed both the ciuil state and the ecclesiasticall the ciuil in taking vpon them to giue Empires to depose Princes to discharge subiectes of their allegiance and oth the ecclesiasticall in making of Church-officers ordering of Church-causes disposing of Church-goodes executing of Church-censures and establishing of Church-lawes to serue their owne desires and lustes In all the which pointes if you condemne their doinges as abuses of their autoritie you condemne the practise of their whole supremacie as nothing els in grosse but an heape of abuses Hart. Not of their whole supremacie For though some of them abused their autoritie in sundrie pointes which you mentioned yet others haue not doon so As we had experience in Quéene Maries dayes wherein there were not so many Church-liuings bestowed in England vpon Italian Pastors as you spake of vnder Gregorie the ninth or Innocentius the fourth But howsoeuer they dealt with practise of their power which they abused I graunt the power
standeth not so much in making Church-officers as in iudging Church-causes And therein the second sort of Popes auouched as much as the last For Innocentius the first answering the letters of the Councell of Mileuis who had writen to him about the errour of the Pelagians doth prayse them for referring the matter vnto him and I thinke saith he that as oft as a matter of faith is called in question all our brethren and felow-bishops ought not but to referre it vnto Peter that is the autour of their name and honour as now your charitie hath doon Rainoldes Thâ—se wordes of Innocentius may proue M. Hart that he claimed a preeminence of knowledge for your Peter not a soueraintie of power a preeminence of knowledge to resolue the Church-questions not a soueraintie of power to decide the Church-causes For matters of faith are to be defined by the rule of faith that is by the scriptures and the right opening of the scriptures lyeth not in power but in knowledge Which you may learne by Gratian in the Canon law saying that the Fathers are preferred before the Popes in expounding of scriptures because they passe them in knowledge the Popes before the Fathers in deciding of causes because they passe them in power Hart. That distinction of causes and questions of the Church is but a shift of sophstrie to cast a mist vpon the truth For though the Church-causes as Gratian speaketh of them do concerne persons the innocent to be acquitted or offenders to be condemned yet questions of faith which you call Church-questions are Church-causes too in a generall sense As one of the third sort of Popes saith that greater causes of the Church chiefly such as touch the articles of faith are to be referred to the See of Peter And this was the meaning of Innocentius the first For in his letters to the Councell of Carthage writen to like effect on the same occasion he saith that the Fathers decreed by the sentence not of man but of God that whatsoeuer was doon in prouinces far of they thought that it ought not to be concluded before it came to the notice of the See of Rome Rainoldes It is true that questions of matters touching faith are causes of the Church but they are not such causes as quicken the Papacie The causes touching persons which Zosimus Boniface and Caelestine did deale for when they would haue it lawfull for Bishops Elders to appeale to Rome are those which Popes must liue by And the same Councels of Carthage and Mileuis whom Innocentius wrote too did know and shew this difference when they desired the Popes consent in that of faith but forbadde the causes of Bishops and Elders to come vnto him by appeales Wherefore that distinction of the Church-causes and the Church-questions is not a shift of sophistrie to cast a mist vpon the truth but a point of truth to cléere the mist of your sophistry For your Iesuit citeth those textes of Innocentius to proue the Popes supremacie Whereas he claimeth iudgement to resolue the douts or that is lesse autoritie to approue the doctrine not a soueraine power to heare and determin the causes of the Church Hart. Nay his wordes are generall to the Councell of Carthage that whatsoeuer was doon in prouinces farre off it should come to the notice of the See of Rome before it were concluded Rainoldes But if you doo racke that word whatsoeuer so farre beyond his drift you make him more gréedy then the last sort of Popes who claime the greater causes of the Church onely Wherefore as when S. Paul saith all thinges are lawfull for me he meaneth not all thingâ—s absolutely and simply but all indifferent thinges according to the point which he treateth of so must you apply the wordes of Innocentius not to whatsoeuer touching Church-causes but to matters of faith called into question which the Popes being learned then and Catholike the Christian Churches vsed to referre to them that the truth approued by their consent and iudgement might for their autoritie finde the greater credit fréer passage against heretikes Hart. What say you then to Leo the great or rather to S. Gregorie who had the Church-causes euen such as touched persons referred to their Sée and willed them to be so as their epistles shew Rainoldes In déede Leo and Gregorie are somewhat large that way Though Leo as the diocese of the Roman Patriarke was lesser in his time then afterwarde in Gregories so had fewer of them Gregorie had more yet he had not all Hart. Not all but all the greater And that is as much as the last sort of Popes claime Rainoldes But they claime all the greater through the whole world which Gregorie neither had nor claimed Hart. No Is it not manifest by all his Epistles that hée dealt with the causes of Bishops in Italie Spaine Fraunce Afrike Corsica Sardinia Sicilia Dalmatia and many countries mo Rainoldes Yet he dealt neither with all the greater causes nor through the whole world And this very shew of the names of couÌ„tries by which your Irish champion doth thinke the Popes supremacie to be cléerely proued is a demonstration in truth to disproue it For rehersing only those which you haue named with England Ireland Corcyra and Graecia and saying that Gregorie did practise the supremacie ouer their Bishops and Churches though neither prouing so much but admit he proued it yet in bringing only the names and proofes of these he sheweth that Gregorie did not practise it ouer the Bishops and Churches of Thracia Mysia Scythia Galatia Bithynia Cappadocia Armenia Pamphylia Lydia Pisidia Lycaonia Phrygia Lycia Caria Hellespontus Aegypt Iury Phoenicia Syria Cilicia Cyprus Arabia Mesopotania Isauria with the rest of the countries subiect to the Patriarkes of Constantinople Alexandria Antioche and Ierusalem Hart. Though S. Gregorie speake not of these particularly yet he sheweth in generall his supremacie ouer them For whereas the Patriarke saith he doth confesse himselfe to be subiect to the See Apostolike if any fault bee founde in Bishops I know not what Bishop is not subiect to it Behold not onely Bishops but the Patriarkes also subiect to the Pope by S. Gregories iudgement yea by their owne confession Rainoldes Nay it was not a Patriarke but a Primate who confessed that And a Primate is but a Bishop of the first and cheefest See in a Prouince that is a Metropolitan Hart. It was Primas Byzancenus that is to say the Patriarke of Constantinople as it is expounded in the glose on Gratian For Constantinople was called Byzantium first Rainoldes Gratian and his glose were deceiued both For primas Byzacenus or Byzancenus if you reade it so is Primate of Byzacium called Byzantium too which was a prouince of Afrike and therfore had a Primate as Councels of that countrie shew Whom and not the Patriarke
point proueth the Papacy And what his iudgement was thereof I haue declared Now for them first who asked the aduise and counsell of the Pope I will tell you a storie which I pray consider of Theodosius the Emperour desirous to procure the peace of the Church consulted with Nectarius the Patriarke of Constantinople what way might best be taken for ending controuersies of religion The Patriarke imparted the matter to Agelius a Nouatian Bishop The Bishop to Sisinius a reader in his church The reader gaue aduise and counsel to the Patriarke Which the Patriarke liked of and shewed it to the Emperour the Emperour embraced it and dealt according thereunto Hart. You would inferre hereof that the auncient Fathers might aske the Popes counsell and yet not acknowledge him to be their supreme head Rainoldes True as the Emperour might of the Patriarke the Patriarke of the Bishop the Bishop of the reader Hart. The case is not like For it was the personal wisdome vertue lerning or faith of these men which made them to be sought to But that which made the Fathers séeke to the Popes was the prerogatiue of their office Rainoldes Wherein they could not erre as you heard say at Rhemes But you who distinguish the office of the Popes from their personall faith and giftes in this sorte must be put in mind that by the same reason Sergius the Patriarke of Constantinople sought to Pope Honorius in respect not of his personall wisedome vertue learning or faith but of his office too And so shall your selfe be forced to confesse that eyther the Pope may erre in consultations which he dealeth with by reason of his office as Pope Honorius did or the Fathers séeking to the Popes for counsell did séeke in respect of their personall giftes that they were learned and godly Pastours as many sought to Austin then to Caluin lately though neither of them were Pope Hart. Nay it is certaine that S. Ierom sought to Damasus for his office sake For he speaketh namely of the chaire of Peter that is the Sée Apostolike committed to Damasus Rainoldes But withall he speaketh of the inheritance of the Fathers that is the Christian faith which Damasus kept vncorrupted And therfore he sought to him as a godly lerned not as a Pastour only not for his office sake alone but for his person succéeding as in place so in doctrine to Peter Though in whatsoeuer respect and consideration Ierom sought to Damasus his séeking to be resolued in a point of faith doth not import soueraintie of power as I haue shewed Much les doth the counsell that Basill asked import it about asswaging of their troubles Least of all that Austin and the Bishop of Afrike who vnder shew of asking counsell of Innocentius in trueth gaue him counsell for feare least the Pelagians should haue seduced him to their errour Wherefore the auncient Fathers who sought aduise of Popes proue not the Popes supremacie No more doe they in déede who sought to further others or reléeue themselues by the Popes autoritie For autoritie power differ that such as are their brethrens superiours in the one may be their inferiours or equals in the other As wée agréed if you remember Hart. It may be so I graunt But they whom I named sought to Innocentius the first and other Popes as to supreme heads of all the Church in power not as to their superiours in autoritie only Rainoldes Their own wordes and déedes argue the contrarie For Chrysostome 14. being called into iudgement by his enemies namely by the Bishop of Alexandria others assembled in a Councell did appeale from them to a generall Councell and as himselfe speaketh thereof to iust iudgement Whereby hee declareth that the lawfull power of iudging his cause belonged to the Councell and not to the Pope Hart. But when he was depriued and cast out of his Bishoprike notwithstanding his appealing to the generall Councell he requested the Pope to write that those things being wrongfully done were of no force as in deed they were not and that they who did him such wrong might bee punished Rainoldes But in this request hée dealt with the Pope as with a member only of the generall Councell to which hée had appealed a member in power a principall member in autoritie For in praying him aboue the rest to write he shewed that he thought him to be of greater credit then other of his brethren But in appealing to them all ioyntly not to him alone hée shewed that the right of iudging the matter belonged not to him but to them in common Which is playner yet by that he saith farther of Bishops in seuerall that they are forbidden by lawes of the Fathers to take on thē the iudging of such as are without the limites of their diocese Wherefore the preeminence which Chrysostome gaue the Pope was of autoritie not of power The same I say of Basil or rather himselfe saith it desiring that the Pope would vse his own autoritie in sending men to succour them Hart. You doe vs great iniurie by this newe distinction of autoritie and power For Basil meant power when he named autoritie Rainoldes You will not say so if you weigh the grounde and circumstances of his spéech For the Easterne Churches being pestered with the Arian heresie by meanes of the Emperour Valens an Arian who persecuted the Catholikes the Churches of the West vnder Valentinian a Catholike Emperour did flourish with sinceritie of faith and faithfull Bishops Whereupon S. Basil conferring with Athanasius both Bishops of the East about their Churches state saith that the consent of the Westerne Bishops is the onely way meanes to helpe it in his iudgement For if they would shewe that zeale for our Churches which they did for one or two being taken among them selues in errour it is likely saith he that they should do vs good by reasō that the rulers would regard and reuerence the credit of their multitude the people euery where would folow them without gainsaying Now this whereto he wished a multitude of Bishops first is the same that afterward he sought to the Pope for Whom he prayed to deale himselfe in the matter vse his own autoritie in choosing and sending fit men to that purpose because the Westerne Bishops could not doe it easily by a cōmon conference and decree of Councell So that he desired a Councels aide chiefly because their consent multitude had greater credit as in his epistle to the Westerne Bishops themselues he saith againe It was not power therefore but credit and reputation that S. Basil meant in suing to be succoured by the autoritie of the Pope Which you must néedes graunt vnlesse you wil say that he thought the Councell to bée aboue the Pope in power against your Trent-doctrine of the Popes supreme power ouer the whole Church As
as our ancestours vnder the Pope as Ionathan Nor was it such turpitude for the nation of the Iewes to haue had religion reformed by two Kings though in a few yeares it caused sundrie alterations as for the nation of the Romans to haue kept idolatrie without alteration vnder high Priests for a thousand yeares together Hart. Well Whatsoeuer opinion you haue of the Princes supremacie your own Centurie-writers coÌ„trol it in generall Caluin in particular the grant thereof to King Harrie For they both reproue the title of head And it is al one to be head of the Church to be chiefe gouernour of causes ecclesiasticall Rainoldes Caluin reproueth not the title of head as the Protestants graunted it but that sense thereof which Popish Prelates gaue namely Steuen Gardiner who did vrge it so as if they had meant thereby that the king might do thinges in religion according to his owne will and not â—ée theÌ„ dâ—on according to Gods wil. In like sort is the headship of the Church controlled by the Centurie-writers For they say that Princes ought not to be heads to coine formes of religioÌ„ frame new points of faith as Ieroboam did his calues So what they mislike yâ— we grant not to Princes What we grant to Princes that they mislike not Nay the Centurie-writers do giue the same supremacie to our Prince that we do nor only to ours but to al in general Which Caluin also doth Nor only hée or they but the reformed Churches whole with one consent I might say euen your owne men too Yea euen your selfe too M. Hart. For when vpon occasion of spéech that I had with you touching this poynt before we did enter into conference by writing I brought you M. Nowels answere to Dorman wherin he hath confuted pithily and plainly the cauils which your Maister blancheth out of Caluin and the ancient Fathers against the Quéenes supremacie requesting you to reade it ouer you told me hauing read it that you had mistaken our doctrinâ— of that point and that if we gaue the Prince no greater soueraintie then M. Nowell doth you did agrée with vs. Hart. Indéed I had thought so do many take it that you meant to giue as much to the Prince by the title of the supremacie as we do to the Pope Where you giue no more me thinkes by M. Nowel theÌ„ S. Austin doth who saith that Kings do serue God in this as Kings if in their own realme they coÌ„mauÌ„nd good things forbid euil not only coÌ„cerniÌ„g the ciuil state of meÌ„ but the religion of God also And thus much I subscribe too Rainoldes Wil you procéede then to the later point wherein you would proue you sayd that the faith which we proâ—esse in England is not the Catholike faith Hart. I haue proued it alredy in part For the Catholike faith is the which we professe in the Church of Rome You professe not ye. As the points that you haue touched by the way of scriptures of traditioÌ„s of merits of sacrameÌ„ts of Priesthoode of the Masse the real preseÌ„ce the worship of Saints suÌ„dry others shew But I wil coÌ„fer no farder herof vnles I haue greter assuraÌ„ce of my life Rainoldes Assurance of your life to procéede in coÌ„fereÌ„ce by Gods grace you haue At least as great assurance as hetherto you haue had But you should rather say you wil conferre no farder vnlesse you had better assurance of your cause For that is the catholike faith which the Apostles did preach to al nations The Apostles preached that which is writen in the holy scriptures Therefore that which is writen is the catholike faith But the faith which we professe is all writen The faith which we professe then is the Catholike faith And this should appéerâ— as well in other pointes as in those alreadie touched if you would sift them The Lord grant you grace to consider of it that whatsoeuer become of your life temporall you may haue assurance of eternall life through knowledge of his holy truth SIX CONCLVSIONS touching THE HOLY SCRIPTVRE AND THE CHVRCH Proposed expounded and defended in publike disputations at Oxford by Iohn Rainoldes 1 The holy scripture teacheth the Church all things necessarie to saluation 2 The militant Church may erre both in maners and in doctrine 3 The authoritie of the holy scripture is greater then the authoritie of the Church 4 The holy Catholike Church which wee beleeue is the whole company of Gods elect and chosen 5 The Church of Rome is not the Catholike Church nor a sound member of the Catholike Church 6 The reformed Churches in England Scotland Fraunce Germanie and other kingdomes and common-weales haue seuered themselues lawfully from the Church of Rome Ierem. 51.9 We would haue healed Babylon but she is not healed forsake her ô children of God and let vs goe euerie one into his owne countrey TO THE RIGHT WORSHIPFVLL and reuerend in Christ the heads of Colleges and companie of students of the Vniuersitie of Oxford Iohn Rainoldes wisheth grace and peace from God the father and from our Lord Iesus Christ. WHen Anna the mother of Samuel had brought vp her child whom she had obtained of God with earnest prayers to put from her selfe the reproch of barennesse she consecrated him to God before Eli the Priest that he might liue and serue in the temple of the Lord. In like maner I desiring to consecrate to the temple of the Lord my Samuel as it were the first child of trauaile that God hath geuen to my barrennes haue thought good to present him to God before you fathers and brethren welbeloued in Christ who either are already or shall be put in trust with the charge of the temple to serue if it may any way the temple of the liuing God Perhaps a rash enterprise vndertaken somewhat more boldly then aduisedly chiefly séeing that it is so far inferior to the ripenes of Samuel And truely I haue hetherto béene stil of the minde that I had leiffer the things which I had brought foorth rather as vntimely fruites then perfit children should be kept within then come abroad into the light stay in the court of the temple then presse into the temple For I haue béen dealt with both oft and earnestly by my very frends that I would suffer to be printed and published as other sclender exercises made rather for the fence-schoole as you would say then for the field so chiefly my Orations which when I read the Gréeke lecture in our College I made to mine audience coÌ„cerning the studies of humanitie and philosophie Which yet I haue refrained to doo not of enuie for I haue addicted my selfe to wish well vnto the Church common wealth neither of vnkindnes as though I were not willing to gratifâ—e them whom I was greatly bound too but partly
that we beleeue the scripture because of the Church if he come as néere to the meaning of Cusanus as he dooth to his wordes that he thinke the scriptures credit and autoritie dependeth of the Church and the Church imparteth autoritie canonicall as Pighius expresly saith vnto the scripture he hath a harder forhead then I thought he had Yet Andradius the expounder and patrone of the faith of Trent speaketh much more modestly and religiously to geue him his due praise of the autoritie of the scriptures Which first he acknowledgeth that they haue not from men but from God not from the Church but from the holy Ghost and then he concludeth thereof that it is detestable to teach that either profane bookes may be made canonicall by the Church Bishops or such as are certainly canonicall may be refused Of the which things to affirme the one he saith it is a point of notorious impudencie the other of madnesse and impietie not to be suffered O that Andradius had likewise detested the cuppe of the whoores abominations in other things Or sith he is dead I would to God that all Christians who of godly mind mislike somewhat in her and who dooth not mislike somewhat would mislike the rest of all her filthinesse too nor onely be Christians almost as Agrippa but like both almost and altogether to Paul as Paul did wish to him To the which end that I might help them forward as much as lay in me I haue doone the best I can to heale the dangerous humors of opinions which do so anoy the tast of séely soules that they thinke the heauenly bread to be poyson and abhorre the swéetest foode of life as woormwood These humours that I speake off are peruerse errours which seduce them from the truth in that article of our Créede I beleeue the holy catholike Church For some are perswaded that the name of holy Church belongeth not to the whole company of the Christian people but to the Ministers onely and Bishops of the Church no not to the Ministers of euery Church neither but of the Church of Rome euen the Pope and Cardinals Whom to haue gotten by a certaine custome to be called the church and that the church had doon receiued and ordeined that which was do on receiued and ordeined by them Marsilius Patauinus did note in his age and it is too well knowen vnto men of yéeres Other some and they of the lernedder sort acknowledge that the Church doth signifie the company of faithfull men and beléeuers but they wil haue that company to bée a people assembled by their own Bishop and cleauing to the head that is to the Pope least the Papall State be any way impaired They comprehende therefore all such within that company as doo professe the faith both the good and badde holy and profane godly and hypocrites There are some also who thinke that by this point to beleeue the holy church the churches authoritie is commended to vs that we should trust credite and obey the church which the Councell of Trent it séemeth would insinuate though somewhat darkely and distrustfully But Bristow therein dooth beare the bell away For he the more easily to deceiue English men at least the simpler if not all worketh treacherie with the dooble signification of wordes expounding this article I beleeue the Church as if the meaning of it were I trust the Church betwéene the which things there is great difference and that very manifest in the Gréeke and Latin though in our mother tounge not so Yet this man was created Doctor at Dâ—way and some doo account him a man of much value O wretched professors of the Doway-schoole that created such a Doctour but more wretched Papistes if they geue credit to such a Doctour who whether he be sophister or sclaunderer more notable it is harde to say A learned man among the Heathens if I remember well said that physicians can not finde a medicine against the byting of a sclaunderer But because the things are possible with God which are impossible with men therefore vpon confidence of his gracious goodnes I haue assayed to make one against the biting of this sclaunderer and of the like in the fourth Conclusion wherein I haue declared setting apart the Prelates of the Church of Rome and goates mingled with shéepe that the holy Catholike Church which we beleeue is the whole companie of Gods elect and chosen Moreouer least the painting of the Romish Church should make vnskilfull young men to be enamored of her when they should heare many commend her as Catholike Apostolike and sound in faith to take this visard also away from her face wash away her painting with water of the holy Ghost I haue added the fifth Conclusion that the Church of Rome is not the Catholike Church nor a sound member of the Catholike church A matter cléere in truth but hard to be perswaded specially to louers for Cupide is blinde And as he saith in Theocritus The things that are not faire seeme faire to him that is in loue Daphnis in the Poet saith so to Polyphemus we by experience haue found it true in Bristow For he being besotted with the loue of the whoore is not content to say that she alone is Catholike that errour were more tolerable at least it were an error common to him with many But he affirmeth farther that the Church might be was called Apostolike for this cause onely that we might be directed thereby as by a marke to the Church of Rome founded by the Apostles Peter and Paul the onely Church now left of all the Churches Apostolike Which flattering spéech of this louer the Pope of Rome himselfe the bridegroome of his Church though doating on his bride too yet refuseth acknowledging that the Church was called Apostolike by the Fathers in the Creede to note the beginning of the Church which it hath from the Apostles because they deliuered once the Churches doctrine and spread it abroad through all the world As for them that geue the title of Catholike to the Church of Rome they must take aduisement how to cléere their boldnesse from attaint of sacriledge who decke an adulteresse with the spoiles of the spouse of Christ or to thinke the best of the Church of Rome who spoile the mother to decke the daughter and her not the best with great wrong and iniurie to the rest of the sisters For the name of Catholike dooth not appertaine to this or that Church but to the Church vniuersall continued through all nations ages and prouinces from Adam vnto vs and to our posteritie as the Councell of Trent and the expounders of the Councell such is the force of truth doo confesse plainly But the chiefest errour that is to be abated is theirs who are perswaded that the Church of Rome is of right
doctrine swéete of Christ their master fedde By preaching first by wryting then to nations all if spred And these bookes hath the holy Ghost set foorth for mortall wights That we in course of faith and life might folow them as lights Auant all ye who brain-sick toies and fansies vaine defend Who on humane traditions and Fathers sawes depend The holy written word of God doth shew the perfit way Whereby from death to life arise from curse to blisse we may 2 The militant Church may erre both in maners and in doctrine TO warfare euery one dooth goe that serueth Christ in field To warfare all their names are billed who doo Gods armour wéelde And doost thou man in warfare serue and art thou frée from blowes And may no dart thy body pearce assaulted by the foes The citie of Ierusalem with holy Church was dight That holy Church kept not her course at all assaies aright Corinthus godly was and pure Philippi shone full bright The faith of Thessalonians was spred in glorious plight Corinthus pure is stayned now Philippi lyes defaced Your praise O Thessalonians is by the Turke disgraced And thou O Rome the Qâ—éene of pride which swell'st on mountaines seuen Thy hart is pearst with deadly wound thou fall'st to hell from heauen While that the Church doth make abode on earth in seats of clay Am I deceiued or may she féele the dint of errours sway 3 The holy scripture is of greater autoritie then the Church THe godlesse rowt inflam'd with lust of holding scepter hie Dooth lift the stately throne of Rome vnto the golden skie Unto the skie that pride were â—inall nay faâ—re aboue the skie Subduing Christ his scepter great to Romish royaltie Men say that Giants did attempt the heauenly powers to quell What doo they raise new warres againe from grisly gulfe of hell The holy church may for it selfe claime worthy gifts of right T is great I graunt but lesse I trust then is the Lord of might Let mortall things geue place to God let men to Christ accord The wife to man the earth to heauen the subiect to the Lord. ALthough I am not ignorant right worshipfull audience that Cato the graue Censour reprooued a certaine Roman who taking vpon him to write a storie in Greeke had rather craue pardon of his fault in dooing it then kéepe himselfe cléere from committing that fault yet so it hath hapned to me at this present yelding shal I say thereto or refusing it surely some what against my will but so it hath hapned that I who could not choose but commit a faut am forced to request you to pardon my faut For both the weakenes of my voice because it is not able to fill the largenesse of this place wil discontent perhaps them who heare me not and the vnripenesse of my abilitiâ— which I feare me will not answere the solemnitie of this assemblie in handling those things that are to be debated will of likelihoode be reproued by them who heare me How much the more earnestly I am to request by word you that heare me by will the rest who heare me not that either you wil be no Censours at all or els be more fauourable Censours then Cato least either you iudge me to haue dealt vnwisely who did not kéepe my selfe from fault or impudent who first commit it and then request you not to blame it Neither do I dout but I shal finde defense for the weakenes of my voice in your frendly curtesiâ— before whom I speake for the vnripenes of my abilitie in the goodnes of the cause which I haue to speake off For that your curtesie will condemne me of that fault which I could not eschew I néede not to feare And the goodnes of the cause hath in it such euident and cléere light of trueth that I doo not dout it will defend it selfe though no man pleade for it Wherein I hope also that you euen your selues either doo already or will agrée with me if you shall heare me open as briefly as I may the meaning of the thrée Conclusions that I hâ—ld the perfection of the scripture the infirmitie of the Church the autoritie of them both For as for the praise and commendation of Diuinitie whereof the beginning is from heauen the maiestie diuine the office to be an instrument of saluation to mankinde which was ordeyned by God the father reueled by Iesus Christ registred in writing by the holy Ghost I cannot speake thereof as I would according to the woorthines of the thing as I may according to my power I ought not In the one I hope you approue my good will in the other I beséech you take my iudgement in good part For I doâ— not say by way of amplification colourably that I refraine therefore from the praising of it because my woundering at it dooth dasell like the brightnesse of the sun-beames the eyes of my minde as Tully faineth of Caesar that the people shewed not their good will toward him by ioyful clapping of their hands because that they being amazed with woondring at him could not stirre themselues But as the prophet Esay witnesseth of God that when he behelde his maiestie he was dismaied because he was a man of polluted lips vnworthie to behold the king and Lord of hostes so may I protesâ— from my hart in trueth that when I consider the highnes of Gods worde I holde my peace as amazed because I am a man of polluted lips vnfitte to touch the noblenesse of a thing so woorthie Wherefore I willingly leaue these Iuy-garlands to be hanged vp by them who vent the wine of Philosophie Physike and Lawe which artes very profitable but for the life that fadeth excellent but humaine commendable but transitorie beutifull but brittle I dout not but already the learning and eloquence of men well séene therein hath made you wel to like of in this exercise of disputations Now I take a greater enterprise in hand for the valour of the thing which I am to deale with though nether with better witte nor deeper iudgement then they whom I folow in the course of dealing Liuie reporteth that Annibal hauing purposed to fightâ—with the Romans did cause certaine couples of captiues to fight one with an other hand to hand before he set his souldiers in battaile aray that his Carthaginians might by that pastime of the captiues combat addresse them selues with better consideration and courage to the serious and set battaile In like sorte there haue béene brought before you gentle audience to the combat sundrie opinions of sundrie artes as it were cooples of captiues which whether they liue or dye be so or not so it skilleth not greatly the state of the realme is not ventured vpon it But now from that sporting conflict of light matters there cometh to the battaile for earnest tryall of thinges of weight host against host truth against falshood religion against errour wherein if we swarue out
fruites and other policies of the Popes to the end that he and his Courtly traine may be more rich in wealth more galant in brauery more high in Princely state Hath not all Christendome borne to their griefe the yoke of the ambition and couetousnes of Rome which crieth out like Iudas what wil ye geue me There is extant in print the defense and Apologie of the Church of England shewing fresh markes of the Roman tyranny wherewith our countrie hath béen seared as with a hote burning yron There is extant a supplication of the parlament of Paris wherein the Frenchmen request their king to ease them of the cursed extortions iniuries and guiles of the Court of Rome There are extant the hundred greeuances of Germany whose complaints writen as it were with their own blood doo shew with what outrage the Sée of Rome hath throwen down oppressed brused and spoyled that most noble nation There are extant infinite bookes of lamentations writen by lerned men of al coastes quarters in the middest of the Papacy confessing all with one consent that the discipline of the church is greatly decayed The Papistes themselues in the Councell of Trent doo not confesse it onely but also witnesse it by publike writing to the world There was gathered together a Councell at Constance about an eight score yéeres since that the church might be reformed both in the head and in the members The matter not being accomplished at Constance was enterprised againe at Basill But Eugenius the fourth who was Pope then could not abide the reformation and therefore reuoked the Councell of Basill by messages and bulles which sith they disobeied he brake it vp by force of armes And whereas there was made an act by the French king with his States that sundry decrees and ordinances of that Councel should be of force in France the Popes who succéeded Eugenius neuer rested till they had gotten that act repealed The last hope remained in the Councell of Trent and truely many things were decréed there for points of reformation wisely and worthily But thrée spots of mischiefes touched by Heruetus a Papist of so much the greater weight his testimonie is against Papists doo renue the old corruptions one that the decrees although they were made were not obserued yet another that although they should be obserued yet they are not such as might restore fully the ancient good orders the last that although they restored the ancient orders yet doo they litle good because the Pope is not bound to lawes him selfe and he dispenseth with whom he list so that medicines heale not the wounds but make them woorse as long as the Pope may repeale alter peruert and breake through the decrees of the Councell with his dispensations And out of all dout that detestable clause annexed to decrees of reformation in the Councell prouided alwaies that the Popes autoritie be safe and no way preiudiced dooth shew the Roman Church to be not onely sick but also past hope of recouering her health For as in mens bodies the greater the spleene waxeth the lesser waxe the rest of the members they say so the more safe the Popes autoritie is the lesse safe will all parts of the Church be The Court of Rome with poyson strōg infected to destroy With the contagion of her sores dooth countries all anoy Wherfore to knitte vp the summe of my reason séeing it is manifest by the very euidence of the things themselues that nether the faith of Christ is taught purely nor the sacraments rightly ministred nor prayers made religiously nor discipline duely practised in the Church of Rome if the former reason of causes séeme too weake yet is it fully proued I hope by the effects that the Church of Rome is no sound member of the Catholike church How much more absurde were it to count her the Catholike Church The Church of Rome therefore is neither the Catholike nor a sound member of the Catholike Church I haue stayed longer in opening this Conclusion then I had purposed but I may runne ouer the last so much the more speedily For knowing how the Church of Rome is infected with pestilent diseases the contagion whereof as the lepers sore because it is daungerous to them who dwell neere it must therefore be remoued out of the campe of the faithfull we may be assured that the reformed Churches in England Scotland Fraunce Germanie and other kingdomes common weales haue seuered themselues lawfully from the Church of Rome For that is done lawfully which is done by the warrant of the word of God all whose commaundements are righteousnesse saith the Prophet But the reformed Churches obeyed his commandement in seuering themselues from the Church of Rome Therefore they seuered themselues from the Church of Rome lawfully For as ecclesiasticall societies and Church-assemblies were ordained by God that his elect and chosen should seeke him and praise him that is learne to know him and worship him being known so where his right faith and knowledge is not taught or he is not serued and worshipped aright thence doth he commaund his seruants to depart To depart first from that Church-assemblie where his right faith and knowlege is not taught the charge is giuen to Timothee Whom S. Paul aduertising of such as taught other doctrine then he did and not the wholesome words of Christ and godly doctrine declareth the qualities and fruites of those woolues and biddeth him depart from them from such sayth Paul depart thou depart thou frō their assembly and Church For so must such teachers be departed from as himselfe declared by his example at Ephesus Where he frequented the synagogue of the Iewes for the space of three moneths But when certaine obstinate disobedient persons spake euill of the way of God before the multitude he departed from them and separated the disciples So that hée seuered not himselfe onely but others also from that Church wherein the way of God was euill spoken of and men were not taught to know and beléeue in him aright Now that we must likewise depart from that Church wherein God is not serued and worshipped aright it is writen to the Corinthians Who being admonished to flee from idolatrie and from al communion with idolatrous worship are charged not to yoke thēselues with idolaters in their assemblies méetinges For what fellowship hath righteousnesse with vnrighteousnesse light with darkenesse Christ with Belial the faithful with the infidell the temple of God with idols Wherfore come out from among them and separate your selues sayth the Lord. Separate your selues from them sayth the Lord the Lord sayth not I. The Lord sayth to the Iewes go ye not vp to Beth-auen not Hosea but the Lord sayth It is called Beth-el but it is
and of one soule They all are one body sanctified by one spirit through the Sacrament of one baptisme knit to Christ by one faith to themselues in one loue to serue togither one Lord in one hope and expectation of one eternall blisse and glory So that of this vnitie whereof Peters state and nature is capable apply which you list vnto the wordes of Leo either vnitie of will as you seeme to do or vnity of grace as others answere for it or vnitie of glory which Christ did pray for also and some will like that better none of these doe reach vnto that maiestie which Leos wordes aspire to by giuing him the felowship of the indiuisible vnitie Yet God forbid that any man should suspect of him that he meant vnitie either of nature with God or of person with Christ. He hath deserued better then to be thought so euill off But that which in trueth may be said for him is that his meaning was as other-where him selfe doth open it that Christ did impart his name of rocke and foundation of the church to Peter Now some mist of fansie daisled his eyes or els he would neuer haue saide thereupon that Christ receyued Peter into the felowship of the indiuisible vnitie and that in such preeminence as he receyued none but him chiefly sith hée imparted his greater names and titles of Iesus of Christ of the light of the world one of them to some the rest to all his seruants neither did he giue his name of rocke to Peter or of foundation to Peter onely as shall appeare after But if yet you see not that Leo did outreach in making Peter as it were a felow-head a partie-rocke and the halfe-foundation of the Church with Christ behold a farther felowship wherein he ioyneth Peter as mate and partner with God a felowship of power God hath giuen to Peter a great and a wonderfull felowship of his power and if he would haue any thing to be common vnto other princes with him he neuer gaue but by him whatsoeuer he gaue to others Out of all controuersie these wordes do lift vp Peter vnto the felowship of that glory of which God is so iealous that he hath protested he will not giue it to any other he hath giuen it to Christ who is one with himselfe God of God light of light if any man presume to ioyne a mortall creature whomsoeuer as companion vnto Christ in it he robbeth Christ of his honor of the onely mediator betwéene God and man And what doth he els who saith as Leo doth that S. Peters care shineth ouer Bishops in that their slaunderers are defaced that Peters merit and autoritie doth strengthen the writings of his seruant against heretikes that Peter doth not suffer their persons to be stained who labour for the catholike faith that the Popes decrees are made by the inspiration of God and S. Peter that it must be imputed vnto S. Peters workes and merits if any thing be gotten of God by dayly prayers that nothing passeth ouer vnto the chiefest of the Church no not vnto any man from God but by S. Peter Let euery Christian hart whome the zeale of God hath giuen any warmth vnto and his Spirit wisedome be iudge betwéene you and vs whether that to yeald such power such authoritie such souerainetie and rule of the Church of Christ to any Saint in heauen be not an empairing of the maiestie dominion and soueraine authoritie of the king of Saints the holy one of Israel It gréeueth me to speake so much against Leo whose learning I doe loue and reuerence his auncient yeares But the Auncient of dayes is more auncient then he must be had in greater reuerence who taught young Elihu to reproue his auncients euen holy Iob amongst them and to say of them I will not accept the person of any neither will I giue titles vnto man for I may not giue titles If I should doe it a litle he that made me would take mee away UUherefore I doe fréely without curtesie of titles and accepting of persons professe that I mislike those hawtie spéeches in Leo and I thinke that the mysterie of iniquitie so wrought through his ambitious aduancing Peter that of the egges which he cherished two of the most venemous cokcatrices were bred that euer poysoned the church of Christ the one the Popes supremacie vsurping Princely power ouer the church and common-weale with breach of faith to God and man the other the worshipping of Saintes wherin that honour is giuen to creatures which ought to be giuen to the Creator onely One example may shew them both euen Hildebrand called Gregorie the seuenth in his Popedome who depriuing Henrie the Emperour of his Empire and discharging his subiects of their othe of allegiance pronounced sentence with such an inuocation of Peter as a true Christian would trēble to haue heard vsed to any but to God Incline thine eares ô blessed Peter Prince of the Apostles heare me thy seruant whom thou hast brought vp from mine infancy and hast preserued to this day from the handes of the vnrighteous who hate and vexe me for my fayth in thee Thou canst beare me witnesse best and the holy mother of Christ and thy brother Paule partaker with thee of martyrdome that I haue vndertaken the gouernmēt of the Papacie vnwillingly Not that I thought it robbery to clime into thy See lawfully but I had rather liue in pilgrimage thē occupie thy roome for fame and glorie only I doe confesse and good cause why that the charge of the Christiā people was committed and the power of binding loosing granted vnto me not through my desertes but by thy grace Trusting therefore on this assuraunce for the honour and sauegard of thy holy church in the name of God almightie the father the sonne and the holy Ghost I throwe downe King Henry the sonne of Henry sometime Emperour who hath laide handes too boldly and rashly vpon thy church from his imperiall and kingly gouernment and I absolue al Christians subiect to the Empire frō that othe by the which they are wont to beare faith alleagiance vnto true Kings Doe you sée to what iniquitie their pride abusing Peters name and claiming al by him hath puffed them vp To what vsurping ouer Emperours To what dishonouring of the Almightie But of this we shall haue fitter occasion to conferre when we come to the question of the worship of Saintes For the other to returne to the point which we haue in hand the name of head in that sense as it is made a conduit of the giftes of God to powre them abroad into al the body is onely due and proper vnto the Mediatour betwéene God man the Apostle of our profession our Sauiour Iesus Christ. When the right of this title
Rainoldes Some such thing it is that your men would say But to confesse mine owne ignorance I do not vnderstand what they meane by it Which I should perhaps be ashamed off if you who handle it your selues did vnderstand it or gaue vs sense and reason of it For if all the power which Bishops haue as Bishops be the power of the keyes and the Apostles as Apostles had all the power of the keyes committed vnto them by Christ both the which things the Scriptures proue you disproue not then was there no power which they might receiue of Peter as Bishops and therefore they did not receiue any of him nor were inferiour to him therein Yet this is the very foundation of the Papacie but laid on such sand that the maister builders who trauaile most in laying it do reele like dronken men about it too and fro and strooken with a blindnes as the Sodomites at Lots dooâ—e they are wearied in seeking of it Cardinall Turrecremata the chiefest autour of the fansie is of this opinion that Christ brought the rest of his Apostles to bishoply dignity by Peter euen as he lead his people through the wildernes by the hand of Moses Aaron For him selfe made Peter onely a Bishop immediately and Peter preferred the rest first Iohn next Iames then others as the Cardinall gesseth by probabilities of dreames some in theCanon law some of his own braine Turrian the Iesuit a man with whom such dreames commonly are oracles though he allow Peter to be the father of the Apostles yet thinking this maner of fathering him to be absurd he saith that the Apostles were all ordeined Bishops by the laying as it were of the fyry tongues vpon them wheÌ„ they receiued the holy Ghost And this he proueth by S. Ierom S. Denys and other Fathers Of whose opinion it ensueth that graunting the Apostles were ordeined Bishops as in a generall sense in which their charge is called a bishoply charge they were yet they were ordained of God immediately as well as Peter was and not of God by Peter D. Stapleton vncertaine how to beare him selfe betwéene these two opinions the later being truer the former safer for the Pope he faltereth in his spéech as though according to the prouerbe hee had a woolfe by the eares whom neither he durst let go out of his hands nor holde for feare of danger For of the one side he is loth to graunt the truth lest it should preiudice the title of the Pope yet loth of the other side to deny it also because he feareth the people First therfore he saith that the keyes which signifie the ful power of gouernment ecclesiasticall were giuen to Peter onely Then he confesseth that all the Apostles were sent by Christ with full power yea with power most full and equall vnto Peters power From hence he turneth backe and taketh vp his olde song that Christ gaue all power ecclesiasticall to Peter onely and so by him to others Which string because it giueth a very swéete sound he harpeth on it often Afterward either doubting the conscience of weake Catholikes or the euill tonges of Caluinists who fauour the Apostles and cannot heare them so debased he saith that the Apostles were sent immediately of God with full power vnto al nations Yet by and by falling againe vnto his giddines through some pang belike of his holinesse displeasure which might be stirred by such spéeches he pronounceth that the spring of honour and power is deriued from Peter alone to all the rest And thus he goeth on through the whole discourse both in this and the rest of his Doctrinall Principles enterfeiring as it were at euery other pace and hewing hoofe against hoofe But so will the Lord confound the toongs of them who doo build vp Babylon Yet here for these cuttings wherwith he gasheth himself he thinketh that they may be healed with a distinction taken vp in Cardinall Turrecrematas shop of a twofold power the one Apostolike the other Bishoply the rest of the Apostles to haue béene inferior to Peter in the Bishoply though equall in the Apostolike and all to haue receiued the Apostolike power immediatly of Christ the rest as namely Iames their Bishoply power of Peter But two learned Friers Sixtus Senensis and Franciscus Victoria men of better reading and iudgement then either he or Turrecremata haue cast off this quirke as a rotten drugge before Stapleton tooke it vp Victoria by shewing out of the Scriptures that the Apostles receiued all their power immediatly of Christ. Sixtus by declaring out of the Fathers that in the power of Apostleship and order so he calleth those two powers Paul was equall to Peter and the rest to them both Which case he thought to be so cléere that despairing of helpe for the Papacie by Peters eyther Bishoply power or Apostolike he added thereunto a third kind of power euen the power of kingdome therein to set Peter ouer the Apostles that so the Pope too might raigne ouer Bishops It must be knowne saith he that Peter had a threefold power one of the Apostleship an other of order and the third of kingdome Touching the Apostleship that is the duetie of teaching and care of preaching the Gospell Paul as it is rightly noted by Ierom was not inferiour to Peter because Paule was chosen to the preaching of the Gospell not by Peter but by God euen as Peter was Touching the power which is giuen in the Sacrament of order Ierom hath said wel that al the Apostles receiued the keyes equally yea that they all as Bishops were equall in degree of priesthood the spirituall power of that degree But touching the power of kingdome that principall authoritie ouer all Bishops and teachers thereof hath Ierom said best that Peter was chosen amongst the twelue Apostles and made the head of al that by his supreme authoritie eminent power aboue the rest the contentions of the church might be taken vp and all occasion of schismes remoued Now if you will vse this aide of kingly power to fortifie the Pope with we will trie the strength thereof when you bring it In the meane season for the Bishoply power which Peter is imagined to haue bestowed on the Apostles as the Pope would on Bishops it was but a Cardinals fetch to serue the turne of his Lord the Pope the learnedst of your Iesuites and Friers dare not take it your Doctor faine would haue it but toucheth it so nicely as though he were afraide of it If you will stand vnto it and holde it with the Cardinall let vs sée your warrant where did the Apostles receiue it of Peter At what time In what maner Who is a witnesse of it Hart. They did not receiue it But the order was that they should haue done Rainoldes Was that the order Why did
the like consent by which they were made But with the Pope it is not so For such is the power of his Princely prerogatiue that not onely Councels may not make decrées for the Church-gouernment without his consent but hee may also make decrées without them as good as they with him Yea that he may adde too and take from and alter what hee shall thinke good in the decrées of Councels and set them out for theirs as Pope Clemens played with the Councell of Vienna Yea that being made with their consent and his both hee maye breake them when he will and repeale them if he list for no lawe doth hold him Now sith that the power which you giue the Pope by the name of supreme head you giue it Peter too from whom you fetch the Popes conueiance and Peter in the assemblies of the Apostles was but as the Speaker and therefore not as the Prince and therefore not as more then the Prince in our Parlament hereof I conclude that Peter was not the supreme head of the Apostles And so haue you the third point which I promised to proue that if somewhat more were giuē to Peter thē to the rest of the Apostles yet was it not so much as should make him their supreme head You may discharge now the Actes of the Apostles out of your Campe. For drawe what reasons thence you list you shal find thē as I told you no stronger thē the former Hart. You are too hasty your conclusion runneth away before your proofe Rainoldes I haue proued as much as may conclude your Pope to be an vsurper Hart. You haue not proued that Peter in the assemblies of the Apostles was but as the Speaker is in our Parlament Rainoldes What néede I When your selfe gaue no more vnto him then as the Speakers office in the former assembly wherein yet he did most For you said that he proposed an election to be made of a new Apostle into the roome of Iudas And this was all that you might say and say truely by the story of the Actes Which sheweth that not he but they mad◠the election so farre as it was lawfull for them to deale with that which God was to order extraordinarilie As for the other assembly when the Councel was held at Ierusalem you cannot proue that he had so much as the office of a Speaker therein Your Doctor infeoffeth him I graunt with more namely that hee speaketh first of all concludeth yea and is President too But what will not he dare to affirme who in so great light of the Scriptures affirmeth in writing that which is flat against them For he saith that Peter not only speaketh first but concludeth also And they shewe that both there had beene much debating and reasoning of the matter before Peter spake and after he had spoken Barnabas and Paule and Iames spake and so the Councell did conclude the matter Yea they did conclude it according to the very wordes that Iames spake and a speciall point of his which Peter touched not So that if we would striue but lawfully against that for which you striue vnlawfully the likely-hood is rather that Iames sat as President in the Coūcell then Peter sith both he spake last and the whole Councell did conclude with him But to yéeld vnto you for your most aduantage as much or more then any likely-hood may afford you that Peter was not only the Speaker but the President in both the assemblies yet are you no néerer vnto that supremacy which you shoote at For such a Presidentship as Peter had amongst the Apostles is so farre from the Prelatship which the Pope seeketh to haue amongst Bishops that if we should offer him all that Peter had at your request vpon condition that he would accept it and aske no more then it he would thinke we mocked him and giue you litle thankes who take vpon you to be his aduocate make so poore a plea for him This you may perceiue by an other aduocate who made the same plea for him out of this storie a learned Lawier Francis Duaren He in his Abridgement of the Canon lawe falling into the question of the Pope and the Councell whither of them is soueraine and hath the chiefest power whereto the other should be subiect in matters of the Church doth thus set downe his iudgement of it It seemeth most agreeable to the law of God that the Church which the Councell doth represent should haue the chiefest power and the Pope should acknowledge himselfe subiect to it For the power of binding and loosing was giuen by Christ not to Peter alone whose successour the Pope is said to be but to the whole Church Howbeit I deny not but Peter was set ouer the rest of the Apostles Hereof it commeth that in the time of the Apostles as often as any was to be ordeined either Bishop or Deacon or any thing to bee decreed which appertained to the Church Peter neuer tooke that vpon himselfe but permited it to the whole Church This was in him aboue the rest that he was wont as chiefe of the Apostles to call them togither and propose to them the thinges which were to bee doone Euen as now with vs hee that is the President of a court of Parlament doth call togither the Senate in the Senate he speaketh first when it is needfull and doth many other things which argue a certaine prerogatiue and preeminence of the person that he beareth Yet is he not therefore greater or higher then is the whole court neither hath hee power ouer all the Senatours neyther may hee decree any thing against their iudgements nay the iudgement of all controuersies belongeth to the court whose head the President is said to bee and not to the President Yea if neede bee the court dooth minister iustice and execute iudgement as well against him as against anye other and punisheth him also And this was the state of these thinges in olde time But in processe of time I know not how it came to passe that the highest power ouer all Christians was giuen vnto one man and he was set at libertie from being bound to any lawes after the maner of Emperours or to the Canons decrees of any Councels For Pope Paschalis prouided and ordered by a decretall Epistle that no Councels may prescribe a lawe to be kept of the church of Rome the authoritie of the Bishop of Rome is excepted expresly in the decrees of certaine Councels And thus he goeth forward in shewing the prerogatiue of the Pope aboue the Councell whereof he maketh him President But so that you sée he acknowledgeth it is not in the Actes of the Popes as it was of old in the Actes of the Apostles no not in those very places of the Actes whereon you grounde
feathers They report that Plato defined a man so a man is a liuing creature two-footed vn-feathered For which definitioÌ„ when he was commended Diogenes tooke a Capon and hauing pluckt his feathers off did bring him in to the schoole of Plato saying This is Platoes man The holy word of God is the same in the Church that reason is in a man Whereupon we giue it for an essential marke as I may terme it of the Church by which the Church is surely known and discerned But the shew of Gods word is such in many heretikes as of reason in brute beastes that some who haue no skill to discerne that marke doo thinke it impossible to know the Church by it Your felowes hereupon describe the Church by outward and accidentall markes as namely by antiquity succession consent These are very plausible and many do commend them highly But he that hath halfe an eie of a Philosopher I meane a wise Christian néede not playe Diogenes in plucking feathers off to shew that these markes may agrée to a capon Now as they deale with the markes of the Church so doo you M. Hart with the markes of the truth Not Vincentius but you who couer your errors with the name of Vincentius and take thinges as necessary and sure proofes of truth which he did note as probable and likelye tokens of it onely For he deliuered them not as neuer failing but as holding often and such as albeit they doo hit sometimes yet do they misse sometimes also Whereof him selfe is witnesse in that he disproueth them the first vniuersality by the example of the Arians and flyeth from it to antiquitie the second antiquitie by the example of the Donatistes and flyeth from it to consent Hart. But the third consent he speaketh of as neuer failing as a necessarie token to know and trie the truth by as an essentiall marke and proper to the pointes of Catholike faith and truth And this is the marke which chiefly I regarded when I alleaged Vincentius that our questions might be tried by the consent of the Fathers Rainoldes In déede he preferreth this marke before the rest as hauing held when they fayled Neuerthelesse he speaketh not so of it neither as that it may serue for tryall and decision of questions betwéene vs. For what doth he acknowledge to bee a point approued such as we are bound to beléeue by this marke Euen that which the Fathers all with one consent haue held written taught plainely commonly continually And who can auouch of any point in question that not one or two but all the Fathers held it nor onely held it but also wrote it nor onely wrote it but also taught it not darkely but plainely not seldome but commonly not for a short season but continually Which so great consent is partly so rare and hard to be found partly so vnsure though it might be found that him selfe to fashion it to some vse and certainetie is faine to limit and restraine it First for the matters that we are to seeke and follow their consent not in all litle questioÌ„s of the scripture but in the weighty pointes of faith Then for the persons that we must folow all or the greater part because in many pointes all of them consent not Finally which cometh néerest to our purpose he graunteth that there may such heresies arise as must be dealt withall by the scripture onely and not by the Fathers for purposing to shew both in what maner and what kind of heresies may be found out and condemned by the consenting sentences of the Fathers he saith and confirmeth that neither all heresies must be assaulted in this sort nor alwaies but only such as are new and greene to weete when first they spring vp before they haue falsisied the rules of auncient faith the very straitenes of time not suffering them to do it and before the poyson spreading abroad farther they endeuour to corrupt the writings of the Fathers But heresies that are spread abroad and waxed old must not be set vpon in this sort because they by long continuance of time haue had long occasion to steale away the truth And therefore whatsoeuer profanities there be either of schismes or heresies that are waxed auncient we must in no case deale otherwise with them then either to conuince them if it bee nedeful by the authoritie of scriptures onely or at the least auoid them being of old time conuicted and condemned alreadie by the generall councels of Catholike Bishops Lo when heresies are growne to be in yeares auncient and ample in places when they haue got antiquitie and vniuersality then must we fight against them not by consent of Fathers but by the authoritie of the scriptures only This is the sentence of Vincentius Lirinensis in that passing fine booke against the profane innouations of all heresies Is it not a golden senteÌ„ce Hart. The cause why Vincentius affirmeth that heresies when they are spread far and haue long continued are to be confuted by the scriptures onely not by consent of Fathers is that which he dooth point too of endeuouring to corrupt the writings of the Fathers a common practise of heresies if occasion and time serue them But there is no colour why therefore you should refuse to deale with vs by the consent of Fathers For neither are the doctrines which we professe heresies much lesse olde and ample heresies such as he speaketh of nor haue wée endeuoured to corrupt the writings of the Fathers nay wée haue kept them and endeuour daily to set them foorth most perfitly But your heresies in déede although they sprang of late and may be counted new and greene yet haue they endeuoured to corrupt the Fathers since and haue done it The practise of Erasmus is famous therein Of whom to say nothing what censures haue béen giuen by other worthy men whoÌ„ Torrensis nameth Marian Victorius in CoÌ„mentaries that he set foorth vpon the former thrée tomes of S. Ierome reproueth most learnedly more then sixe hundred errours thrust into them by Erasmus either in expounding or ill correcting them And Torrensis in his preface to the Confession of S. Austin declareth sundry bookes to be S. Austins owne which Erasmus had noted as falsly fathered on him Wherefore if by Vincentius you minde to touch them who endeuour to corrupt the writings of the Fathers cast out the beame out of your owne eie before you séeke a mâ—atâ— in ours Rainoldes Yet you sée by the way though you make hast away from it what rotten postes they be whereon as principall pillars your church and faith is built vniuersalitie antiquitie consent Of which it is shewed by Vincentius himselfe that heresies may iustly claime the two former vniuersalitie and antiquitie and make a faire chalenge to the third consent in processe of time so cunningly can they file the Fathers to their
to dispose to loose and bind These sayings are alleged by Thomas of Aquine out of S. Cyrils worke entitled the treasure But in S. Cyrils treasure there are no such base coines to be founde Wherefore either Thomas coined them him selfe for want of currant money or tooke them of some coiner and thought to trie if they would go Hart. Doo you know what iniurie you doo to that blessed man S. Thomas of Aquine to whose charge you lay so great a crime of forgerie Rainoldes None I at all to him whose counterfeits I discrie But he did great iniurie to the poore Christians whom hée abused with such counterfeits Your Saint-maker of Rome did canonize him for the holinesse of his life and learning The greatest triall of it was in his seruice to that Sée And are you loth to haue it knowne Hart. But why should you thinke either him to be the counterfeiter or the sayings to be counterfeit when as Cope sheweth they are alleaged not only by him but by other too Namely by that worthie and most learned Cardinall Iohn of Turrecremata who was at the Councell of Basill before him by Austin of Ancona yea by Graecians themselues who were at the councell of Florence Andreas Bishop of Colossae and Gennadius Scholarius the Patriarke of Constantinople Of whom when the former said in the Councell that Cyrill in his treasures had very much extolled the authority of the Pope none of all gainesaid him The later in a treatise that hee wrote for the Latins against the Graecians touching fiue pointes whereof one is the Popes supremacy citeth the same testimonies although perhaps not all which S. Thomas of Aquine doth out of Cyrill Yet you amongst so many choose him whom you may carpe at and thinke that wordes alleaged by them all are counterfeites Rainoldes Counterfeites are counterfeites though they go thorough twenty hands Al these whom you name out of Harpsfieldes Cope did liue long after Thomas and séeme to haue alleaged S. Cyrill on his credit as Cope himselfe doth also Wherefore I could not think that they had béene the coiners of that which was before they were But Thomas is the first with whom I finde the words and therefore greatest reason to laie the fault on him vnlesse he shew from whom he had them At least séeing I know the words are not Cyrils whose Thomas saith they be I did him no iniurie I trust when I said that either he receiued them at some coyners handes or coyned them him selfe Hart. Although the wordes are not to be found now in those partes of Cyrils treasure which are extant yet that is not sufficient to proue that either Thomas or some other forged them For Melchior Canus affirmeth that heretikes haue maimed that booke and haue razed out all those things which therin pertained to the Popes authoritie Which same thing to be done by them in the Commentaries of Theophylact vpon Iohn the Catholikes haue found and shewed Rainoldes Mée thinkes you and Canus deale against vs as the men of Doryla did against Flaccus Whom when they accused out of their publike recordes and their recordes were called for they said that they were robbed of them vpon the way by I know not what shepheardes You accuse vs that we deny the Pope his right of the supremacy The recordes by which you proue it his right are the wordes of Cyrill Cyrils wordes are called for that they may be séene You say they are not extant you are robbed of them by I know not what heretikes Whereon to put a greater likelihood you say further that heretikes haue done an other robbery in Theophylact as they are charged by Catholikes And this doo you say but you say it onely you bring no proofe you name no witnesse you shew no token of it If such accusations may make a man guiltie who shall be innocent Hee that should haue dealt-among the heathens so would haue bene counted rather a slaunderer then an accuser Hart. Admitte that the words were not razed perhaps out of any booke of Cyrill which we haue Yet might they be in some of them which are lost or not set forth in Latin For we haue no more then fouretéene bookes of his treasure whereas the two and thirtieth is cited by the Fathers in the sixth general Councell And this is enough to remoue suspicion of forgery from Thomas and other who alleage them Rainoldes Nay although the two and thirtieth be mentioned by the Fathers there yet meant they no more of Cyrill then we haue For that which in our Latin edition is the twelfth is the two and thirtieth in the Grecians count Hart. This is an answere which I neuer heard It hath no likelyhood of truth Rainoldes Peruse you the place which toucheth that of Cyrill and the wordes them selues will proue it more then likely Hart. The Councel hath it thus Hoc sanctus Cyrillus in trigesimo secundo libro Thesaurorum docet epistolam ad profanos explanans nec enim vnam naturalem operationem dabimus esse Dei creaturae vt neque id quod creatum est ad diuinam deducamus essentiam neque id quod est diuinae naturae praecipuum ad locum qui creatis conuenit deponamus Rainoldes This sentence alleaged out of the two and thirtieth of Cyril in Gréeke is in the twelfth booke of our Latin Cyrill Sauing that he being translated by an other hath it in other wordes But there is the sentence the very same sentence which the Councell pointeth too Hart. It might be there first and yet againe afterward in the two and thirtieth as manye vse one sentence often Rainoldes But the circumstance of the place doth rather import it to be the very same For the Councell saith that Cyrill hath these wordes explanans epistolans ad profanos where he expoundeth the epistle to profane men And what meant they by this epistle ad profanos to profane men Hart. How can I tell what they meant when that booke of Cyrill whereof they speake is lost Rainoldes It should be the epistle ad Romanos to the Romaines Romanos made profanos by the printers error vnlesse he did it of purpose to shew what now the Romanes be or some corrector chaunged it least wee by this circumstance should find the place of Cyrill For this where he expoundeth the epistle to the Romanes is a great argument that the Councell meant the place in the twelfth booke where Cyril doth handle such pointes of that epistle as concerned the matter that he had in hand Which that he should doo againe in the same worke with the same sentence touching the same matter they who know Cyrill will not thinke it likely The lesse because it is an vsuall thing with the Grecians to diuide bookes otherwise then the Latins doo As in the Gréeke testament the gospell of S. Marke hath more then
Achithophel a counsellor had such authority with his Prince that his counsell was regarded as an oracle of God and Gamaliel a Pharise had such authoritie with the Iewes that the hie priest and the whole assemblie did yéelde to his aduise and as it were obeyed him Wherefore the authoritie which Ierom saith that Peter had dooth not prooue a power much lesse a supremacie Hart. Yet oftentimes authoritie is taken for the same that power as when a thing is doon by the appointment and order of the magistrate wée are wâ—nt to say that it is doone by authoritie Rainoldes True because power is one of those qualities which procure authoritie the greater authoritie the better that the power is vsed And so I ioyned power and authoritie together when I spake of the keies that Christ did geue to Peter But although the words be taken for the same in a figuratiue kinde of speech by reason of the affinitie which is betweene the things yet as the things differ and the words are vsed for them as different properly it is cléere that authoritie may bée without power and an inferior in power may be superior in authoritie So Tully when he tolde the Senatours of Rome that they ought to geue autoritie to Cesar and the rest against Antonie he meant by autoritie lawfull power and right to deale against him as against an enemie But otherwhere intreating of foure things which should be in a Generall of an army skill vertue autoritie felicitie he meant not lawful power by autoritie but estimation that a Generall must bee honorably thought of by frends and foes The difference betwéene them hée shewed where he saide that Metellus a priuate man though chosen Consul for the yéere folowing forbadde certain playes when an officer had allowed them and that which hee could not yet obteine by power hee did obteine by autoritie Hart. The thinges doo differ I graunt But séeing that the name of autoritie is vsed as well for power sometimes as for estimation why should it be taken in S. Ieroms words rather for estimation as you wil haue it then for power as I Rainoldes Because the point which Ierom dooth therevpon inferre cannot agree to power but to estimation yea this word it selfe is expressed by him and sheweth that he meant it For he saith that Paul went vp to Ierusalem to conferre of the gospel with them that were esteemed by whome hee meaneth Peter and other Apostles euen them whom Paul nameth and noteth their estimation as himselfe expoundeth it Iames and Peter and Iohn who were esteemed to be pillars Wherefore albeit Ierom speake hardly of Paul that he had not had securitie of preaching the gospell vnlesse it had beene approued by these yet the authoritie which he giueth Peter he giueth other Apostles Iames and Iohn with him and therfore a preeminence in estimation not in power not in supremacie but in credit For if by authoritie he meant supreme power Iames and Iohn should haue it ouer the Apostles as well as Peter had But they you say were equall in power to the rest and inferior to Peter Then Ierom by authoritie which he gaue to Peter meant not the supremacie Hart. The primacie of Peter doth proue it more forcibly which is the next prerogatiue And that is giuen to him not only by S. Austin but also by S. Cyprian as I haue declared Rainoldes What néede you to alleage me S. Austin and S. Cyprian Did I denie his primacie Hart. Why Doo you not deny it Rainoldes If I doo let me be smitten not with the blunt weapon of the words of men for so I may iustly terme them in this comparison but with the sharpe two-edged sword of Gods word For it is writen in S. Matthewes gospell these are the names of the twelue Apostles the first is Simon called Peter Now if he were the first then he had the primacie For although the reason be not so plaine in English because we haue not a fit word deriued from our English first as primacie is deriued from the first in Latin yet they who know reason will neuer deny but that he that is first hath the firstâ—ship if I might speake so that is to say the primacie But this is such a primacie as a foreman of the Quest is wont to haue in Iuries not a primacie of power as ouer inferiours but a primacie of order as amongst equals Hart. The primacie of order is a colourable shew wherby you may auoid S. Matthew But Austin and Cyprian cannot be so auoided For their wordes are witnesses they meant a farther primacie and what should that be but a primacie of power Which because they learned as it is likely out of S. Matthew therof do I gather that S. Matthew meant a primacie of power and not of order onely Rainoldes And because S. Matthew as it is more likely meant not a primacie of power to one there where he sheweth that Christ gaue the same power to all the Apostles thereof doo I gather that he meant a primacie of order onely not of power But Austin and Cyprian meant a farther primacie you say Perhaps they did Therefore a primacie in power It doth not folow Nay it is manifest they meant it not of power For Austin doth build it vpon the ground of Cyprian and Cyprian doth teach that Christ gaue equall power to all the Apostles The truth is they meant a primacie in calling to wéet that the Lord did choose Peter first as Cyprian doth speake expressely And whether S. Matthew regarded this also in that he numbred Peter first I can not define But whether hée did or no it is no farther primacie then I graunted you by the foreman of the Quest who is called first as he is reckened fiâ—st and so both in order and calling hath a primacie which he hath not in power Hart. A primacie in calling Nay yet you had done better to haue cleaued still to the primacie of order For Peter in order was the first in déed and so I deny not but he might haue béene though he had bene equall in power to his brethren But he was not the first in calling For S. Ambrose saith Andrew first folowed our Sauiour before Peter and yet Andrew receiued not the primacie but Peter And S. Austins words the primacie of the Apostles is conspicuous and preeminent with excellent grace in Peter doo plainely import that he meant a primacie not in calling but preeminence Rainoldes You say that Peter had not a primacie in calling for S. Ambrose saith so What if I should answere Hee had a primacie in calling for S. Cyprian saith so Or to helpe S. Cyprian if he haue smaller credit with you for S. Gregory saith so Peter was called to the Apostleship first But there is no dissension betwéene them and Ambrose if
all equally Wherfore by Ieroms iudgement Peter was not ouer the Apostles in power If not in power yet in part of gouernment in what but in that preeminence which I spake of S. Ierom therefore saying that Peter was appointed head of the Apostles did meane that preeminence among the Apostles and not a soueraintie aboue them Hart. The wordes of S. Ierom doo speake somewhat too liberally of the Apostles in that he saith the church is built vpon them all equally And as D. Stapleton noteth very well the distinction touching things writen by the Fathers some by way of doctrine and some of contention is verified in them For here by occasion that he reasoneth against Iouinian who alleaged against the honour of virginitie that Christ preferred Peter a maried man before the rest he doth lessen and extenuate the authority of Peter as farre as truth did giue him leaue making the rest equall to him for the Apostleship yet affirming plainely that he was head of the rest Rainoldes Ierom wrote many things in déed against Iouinian by way of contention rather then of doctrine to the disgrace of marriage In so much that being therefore reproued by some himselfe excuseth it that he did rather striue thē teach and Pammachius a learned gentleman his fréend did suppresse the copies and wished them to be concealed till he had corrected them But neither was this place so reproued by them or excused by him for ought that may be gathered by his apologie nor is it to be noted as sauouring more of heate then truth for the substance of it agreeth with the scriptures Yea Stapleton who couereth it with this distinction confesseth in effect as much at vnawares For he saith that Ierom doth lessen and extenuate the authoritie of Peter as far as truth did giue him leaue Wherof it ensueth that it is no vntrueth to say as Ierom doth that all the Apostles had equall power with Peter The name of head therefore which Ierom giueth him with the same breath can by no meanes import a soueraine power ouer the Apostles Unlesse you will make him so absurd and brainesicke as that he should say Though none of the Apostles were soueraine of the rest but they had equall power all yet was one of them aboue the rest in power and had the souerain-headship of them Hart. Wel. Howsoeuer you handle Ieroms wordes he saith in flat termes that which you denyed And therefore he maketh against you with vs. Rainoldes In what point Or how Hart. You denied that Peter was head of the Apostles Ierom saith he was Peter was not head and Peter was head Is there not a contradiction betwéene your words and his Rainoldes No more then betwéene the wordes of Iohn and Christ Christ said of Iohn Baptist this is Elias Iohn Baptist said of him selfe I am not Elias Iohn Baptist is Elias and Iohn Baptist is not Elias Is there not a contradiction betwéen the words of Christ and Iohn Hart. No. For Christ meant one way and Iohn Baptist an other Christ that he was Elias in spirit as coming in the spirit and power of Elias Iohn Baptist that he was not Elias in person which the Pharisees meant Rainoldes You haue answered well So Ierom meant one way and I an other Ierom that he was head in a preeminence of gouernment as moderating the actions in assemblies of the Apostles I that he was not head in soueraintie of power which the Papists meane And thus to conclude you may see that the Fathers whom you alleage for Peter some giue him a prerogatiue of authoritie some of primacie some of principalitie but none of your supremacie For your supremacie doth consist in power and they giue equall power to Peter with the rest Hart. Equall power I graunt in respect of the Apostleship but not of pastoral charge For Peter was ouer thē in that euen as the Pope is ouer Bishops And so we do expound the words of S. Cyprian S. Ierom S. Chrysostome and other of the Fathers who giue equall power to the Apostles with Peter Rainoldes Yet more of these Colewortes I haue proued alreadie that Peters pastorall charge and his Apostleship is al one and therefore if they were equall to him in the Apostleship the were in pastorall charge too But if no other reason will put you to silence the Popes own authority may force you to it here For in the Cyprian set forth by him at Rome he noteth it to be considered that whereas Cyprian saith The rest of the Apostles had equall power with Peter this must be vnderstood of the equalitie of Apostleship which ceased when the Apostles died and passed not ouer vnto Bishops The drift of which note implieth a distinction of Apostles and Bishops that it is not with Bishops in respect of the Pope as it was with the Apostles in respect of Peter And that doth cary with it a checke of your opinion which maketh the Apostles vnderlings to Peter as Bishops to the Pope Hart. You knowe not who made that note in the Roman Cyprian for there is no mans name to it But if the Pope either made it him selfe or allowed of it being made by others to whom he did commit that charge he set down as a priuate Doctor his owne opinion which they who list may folow But this is my opinion which I haue set downe and to that I stand Rainoldes I am glad you thinke not as the Pope doth at least in one point God graunt that you may come forward in the rest to dissent from him not in this one point alone but in many Howbeit whether he or others made that note they set it forth with greater authoritie and priuilege then as a priuate Doctors fansie Neither is it likely that they would haue graunted so much to the Apostles vnlesse the truth had wroong it from them Let your righteousnes M. Hart if not exceede yet match the righteousnes of Scribes and Pharisees and yéeld to this conclusion which riseth of our conference that Peter was not head of all the Apostles as you do take the name of head Hart. You shall conclude your selfe alone so for me For I do protest that I beléeue it not nor mind to yéeld vnto it The sixth Chapter The two maine groundes on which the supremacie vsurped by the Pope doth lie The former that there should be one Bishop ouer all in earth 1 because Christ said There shall be one flocke and one pastor 2 and among the Iewes there was one iudge and hie Priest The later that the Pope is that one Bishop 3 because Peter was Bishop of Rome as some say 4 and the Pope succeedeth Peter Both examined and shewed to faile in the proofe of the Popes supremacie RAINOLDES Then wisedome must be content to be iustified of her childrē Howbeit God is able to chaunge your hart in such sort that as
and some of ceremonie so there are some pointes essentiall in iustice and some accidentall The essentiall pointes of iustice are the same in lawes of all common-wealthes For what is a law but a diuine ordinance commanding thinges honest and forbidding the contrarie The accidentall pointes doo and may vary according to circumstances of places times and persons So lawes of religion must be the same for substance in all Christian Churches in ceremonies they may differ as in the primitiue Church they did Wherefore the same faith and lawes of religion do no more inforce all churches to obey one Bishop then the same right and ordinances of iustice do require one Prince to rule all common-wealthes But what soeuer your fansie make you thinke of this point the place in Deuteronomie adiudging them to death who disobey the Priest can not helpe your fansie though it had béene meant of no other Priest but of the high Priest onely For Christ wheÌ„ he sent his Apostles to preach the Gospell said vnto them Whosoeuer shall not receaue you nor heare your wordes when yee depart out of that house or that city shake of the dust of your feete Truely I say vnto you it shall be easier for them of the land of Sodome and Gomorrha in the day of iudgement then for that citie Which wordes being spoken to all the Apostles not to Peter onely and therefore belonging to all their successors as well as to Peters doo shew that euery Bishop hath as great authoritie giuen him by Christ as the Priest had by that law in Deuteronomie In so much that Cyprian doth alleage it often by a better reason of proportioÌ„ then yours to proue the authoritie of Bishops each in seuerall ouer the flockes committed to them Hart. And what if a matter of religion be harder then Bishops each in seuerall be able to decide it What if they disagree and will not yéeld one to another Doth not wisedome shew that there must be a chiefe iudge to ende the controuersie to keepe the truth of faith and peace of the Church that it be not pestered with heresies and schismes Rainoldes The wisedome of God hath committed that chieftie of iudgement so to call it not to the soueraine power of one but to the common care of many For when there was a controuersie in the Church of Antioche about the obseruation of the law of Moses some Iewes teaching contrarie to that which Paule and Barnabas taught they ordeined that Paule and Barnabas and certaine other of them should go vp to Ierusalem to the Apostles and Elders about that question And so by their common agreement and decrée the controuersie was ended the truth of faith kept and peace maintained in the Church After which example the Bishops that succéeded them made the like assemblies on the like occasions and by common conference tooke order for such matters both of doctrine and discipline as concerned in common the state of their Churches So did the Apostles and Apostolike men prouide against schismes heresies Their wisedome reached not vnto your policie of one chiefe iudge Hart. The profit of Councels and Synods of Bishops is very great we graunt For many eyes see more then one But it wil be greater if they be all counsellors vnto one gouernor then if they gouerne eche his owne and all in common For reason doth teach vs that the regiment of one which wee call a monarchie is better and worthier then the regiment of many as the Philosophers shew who write of Common-weales Rainoldes Reason is a notable helpe of mans weakenes if it be obedient to faith as a handmaide not rule it as a maistresse And humane artes wherein the Philosophers haue séene many sparkles of the truth of God by the light of reason are profitable instruments to set forth the truth so farre as they haue peace not warre with Gods worde But if the Philosophers haue erred as naturall men who neither doo conceiue the things of the spirit of God nor can know them if reason haue her eyes as it were dazeled because the light shineth in darkenesse and the darkenesse did not comprehend it then is it to be feared least as the Serpent seduced Eue through his suttletie so he beguile you by reason and you forget that lesson of the holy Ghost beware least there be any man that spoyle you through philosophie Which I say not so much in respect of this point of the Church gouernment as of your whole doctrine a mightie ground whereof in your Schoolemen is philosophie and your Iesuites challenge doth offer to proue it by naturall and morall reason For here if I would iustifie the cause by Philosophers it is â—asily shewed that the Churches state is a most perfite monarchie wherein Christ is king his lawes are the scriptures his officers are the Bishops not ordained to bée assistantes vnto one deputie but to be deputies all them selues euen Pastors of his flock guides rulers of his Church Howbeit if it differ from the kingly states of worldly coÌ„mon-weales which philosophie writeth off as it doth in part Philosophers must not maruel sith Christ hath declared his kingdoÌ„e is not of this world Indéede the Apostles thought of such a kingdome but Christ saide it should not be so amongst them as with the Princes of the Gentiles Which sentence of Christ your Popes not vnderstanding and wéening the Apostles to be forbidden nothing but an heathnish tyrannie and liking well a monarchie because Philosophers prayse it they haue raised a visible monarchie of their owne in steede of Christes monarchie and haue chaunged his kingdome which is not of this world into a worldly kingdome the kingdome of the Romanes as a Iesuit calleth it Neither contenting them selues with such a kingdome as Princes of the Gentiles had they make them selues Princes ouer all the kingdomes and nations of the earth Which is a greater monarchie then Philosophers like off as I coulde proue out of them if the Popes cause were to be handled in their schooles But because I list not to trifle out the time with idle discourses about pointes of State as your Rabbines doo to proue that a monarchie is the best regiment therefore against such reasons I laye that exception which Tertullian did of olde against heretikes What hath Athens to do with Ierusalem the schoole of philosophy with the Church of Christ The duetie of Christians is to search and weigh in matters of faith not what reason but what religion not what the Philosophers but what the Prophets Apostles not what mans fansie but what the Spirit of God doth say And so the former parts of your maine argument for the Popes supremacie are too weake to proue it The last is weaker then they both For that there should be one chiefe and highest Pastor of the Church in earth it hath some
was taken for the peace safetie both of the countrie the State least the Emperours being absent out of Italie abiding at Constantinople the Pope whose autoritie was growen to be great if he should mislike the State or be factious might entise both Rome and Italie to reuolt from them to their enimies as Iustinian was perswaded that Pope Siluerius sought to doo This order continued vntill the yeare sixe hundred eightie and sixe about the which time the Emperour released the Pope from that bond But afterwarde the Pope did binde himselfe againe vnto it For in the yeare seuen hundred seuentie and thrée Pope Adrian the first gaue to Charles the greate the right and autoritie of choosing the Pope and ordering the Sée of Rome and he gaue it with consent of a Councell of Bishops not of his owne fansie The decreee of which Councell did stand in strength and vertue aboue a hundred yeares vntill the time of the fiftie Popes For in the yeare eight hundred eightie and fiue Pope Adrian the third made a contrarie decree to wéete that in creating of Popes they should not waite for the consent of the Emperour but the voices of the clergie and people should bée frée Neither had any Emperour that prerogatiue after till the yeare nine hundred sixtie and thrée when it was restored againe vnto Otho Now in the meane time the monsters came in Formosus Boniface Stephen Romanus Theodore Iohn the ninth Christopher Sergius and finally that monster of monsters Iohn the twelfth Of whom there was not one appointed by the Emperour And yet to sée the spirite of a Popish zeale how it wilâ— besotte men Genebrard hauing writen that Sergius did imprison his predecessor Christopher and commanded the bodie of Formosus to be digged out of his graue and beheaded doth adde this note vpon it No maruell if these Popes were monstrous for they were not chosen after the maner of their ancestors but intruded by the Emperours Whereas your Chronicles shew that Sergius conspiring against his predecessour Christopher as Christopher had conspired against his predecessor Leo did force him to renounce the Popedome on one day himselfe the next day did stall himâ—elfe in it So that not asmuch as the presence of the Emperours embassadours was stayed for at his consecration which yet by order should haue béene to hinder violence and offenses muâ—h lesse was he intruded as Genebrard saith by the Emperour But when Iohn the twelfth had gotten the roome then the which there could not a wretcheder thing possesse it vnlesse the diuell himselfe should hold it in person the Emperour Otho being earnestly sued too by the Romans to set the Church in better order caused the Bishops of Italie with others and the Roman clergie to be assembled in a Councell Wherein after that they had deposed Iohn and chosen Leo the eigth all with one consent Pope Leo with the whole clergie and people of Rome did graunt vnto Otho and his successours for euer the power of choosing the Pope The cause which moued him to stablish this order was that no such monsters might sit in Peters seate as there had before For he considered that since the time that Adrian the third had taken away that power from the Emperours and left it to the people and clergie the foule and inordinate ambition of the Romans had filled the Church with beasts the citie with tumults and the elections with vilanie He saw that this outrage must be repressed some way He thought no bridle fitter then that the decrée of Adrian the first who gaue the right of choosing the Pope to the Emperour should be reuiued And so he proposed the matter to the Councell and the Councell agréed vpon it Wherefore the former halfe of the fifty monsters were not intruded by the Emperours If the later were whose was the faute the Emperours or the Popes and Councels who gaue the Emperour that right But in déed they were not For although the Romans had sworne to Otho that they would neuer choose Pope without his consent and his sonnes yet by and by they turned to their olde bent like a deceitfull bow Howbeit in his dayes they could not haue their purpose For when they cast out Leo and brought in Iohn againe and chose one after him too Otho by force of armes made them repent it and redressed it But in his sonnes dayes they went thorough with it His nephew had a stroak in the choise of one or two but they were of the better sorte It was the Romans choise that thrust the monsters in Of whom we may estéeme what the rest were by their head and taile Boniface and Benedict Boniface the seuenth who came in by briberie was cast out by violence went away with sacrilege made money of his Church-robberies and therewith got againe the Popedome Benedict the ninth who when he was throwne out for his vnworthinesse and Siuester placed in his stéede he by helpe of the faction which had made him Pope threw Siluester out againe and fearing that mens stomakes would not brooke him long they did so loth him and abhorre him hee set the Popedome to sale and Gregorie the sixth bought it These dealinges of Gregorie Siluester and Benedict thrée most vgly monsters as they are called by Platina stirred vp the Emperour Henrie the second to looke vnto the Church as Otho had done Whereupon when he was come into Italie Pope Gregorie went vnto him and offered him a pretious diademe to winne his fauour But he neuertheles assembled togither a Councell of Bishops who hauing examined the cause of Pope Gregorie found that mony made him Pope iudged him vnlawfully made so he was depriued for Simonie Then in consultation about a new Pope when the Romanes themselues did not name any the Emperour named a German Suidiger a Bishop commended for his skil vertue who being approued by them all was chosen Pope called Clemens By whom by an other Councell held at Rome the same power was giuen to Henrie againe for ordering of the Popedome that was before to Otho So neither did the Emperors intrude the later monsters of the fiftie Popes no more then the former For there is but one of the fiftie after Clemens and he none of the monsters though Genebrard make him one because the Emperour chose him nor had the Romanes néeded to haue béene troubled with him but that Clemens the German tooke some Italian drugs amongst them Nay the Emperours were so farre from intruding of monsters that they did extrude them and were the chiefest meanes to ridde the Church of them Which as it is euident by the whole course of their liues and stories so Carolus Sigonius in his storie of Italie no partiall man against the Popes doth beare
Bishops all such as say and doo not and that S. Austin giueth that sense of the text But the Diuines of Rhemes haue set downe S. Austins name and wordes so as if he had thought that to be Scribes and Pharises had béene a peculiar grace vnto the Popes And vnder colour of his authoritie and iudgement they force the scriptures also to it saying that the chaire of Moses in the olde law was that the Sée of Rome is now The See of Rome is answerable to the chaire of Moses Which sentence is so grosse that vnlesse they had hoped to finde swine in England whom any doung would please that sauoured of the Pope they would not haue durst to lay it on the scriptures no not though their heartes had béene as fat as brawne and their faces as hard as adamant Hart. What meane you to sclaunder a college of so learned Diuines in such sort Doth not S. Austin mention the See and Bishops of Rome in all the places which they cite both in the epistles and against Petilian Rainoldes Not in all in some he doth But doth he mention him in any of them so as though the chaire of Moses were proper vnto him and he alone should sit in it Hart. Perhaps not expressely yet he doth impliedly and by a consequent For els why made he speciall mention of him more then of others Rainoldes Because he had occasion to speake of him specially through the obiections of his aduersaries Yet he maketh mention of other Sees and Bishops too as of Ierusalem But the scripture witnesseth that all men are lyers If I should hence auouch that the Pope is a lyer would you say that I auouch the Pope alone to to be a lyer and not the Turke also Hart. The Pope may lye by nature but God by grace can free him from it Rainoldes The question is what God doth not what hee can doo Hart. But as he can so he doth by priuilege of the Sée of Rome Rainoldes As true as Austin saith it Such a proofe such a priuilege Hart. S. Austin may haue said it if not in the former places yet in the other For certes D. Genebrard to proue that the Pope may be an heretike in person but cannot erre iudicially doth bring forth a reason from the chaire that is the Sée and quoteth him for it For the force saith he of the chaire is such that it constraineth them to speake good thinges and true who doo not good nor thinke true neither doth it suffer them to teach their owne thinges but the things of God Augustin lib. 4. de dectr Christ cap. 27. epist. 166. Rainoldes Of the two places whence he gathereth this the former agreeth fully with the later the later is the same that your Diuines of Rhemes abuse as I haue shewed In both S. Austin speaketh of wicked Bishops generally not specially of the Pope In both he meaneth the office of teaching by the chaire the office committed not to one Bishop but to all If Genebrard doo take the chaire in this sense how proueth it your priuilege If he meane the Sée of Rome by the chaire then is there a conspiracie of Prophets among you as there was among the Iewes and Genebrard is one of them Hart. It is not likely that S. Austin vsed the name of the chaire for the office of teaching which is common to all Bishops as well to hirelinges as to pastors For he saith that the chaire constraineth them to speake good thinges and true the chaire constraineth them How are they constrained but by a speciall grace for the benefite of the Church And in what Bishops may this grace be shewed but in the Popes onely Rainoldes S. Austin as he noteth that grace in the Popes so doth he shew it in all other Catholike Bishops of his time whose doctrine the Donatists against whom he writeth did not reproue but their maners He calleth the chaire in which they all sit the chaire of wholsome doctrine and saith they are constrained to speake good thinges in it He openeth the cause why they are constrained to wéete that although they seeke their owne thinges yet they are afraid and dare not teach their owne thinges out of the pulpit of that Church in which sound doctrine is established So that the speciall grace whereby they are constrained to speake good thinges and true is an vngratious grace whereby they are induced to séeke their wealth or honour For they preach Christ for earâ—hly commodities of mony or dignities and the prayse of man The loue of which thinges is so mightie with them that it doth moue them effectually and forcibly to preach in such sorte as is fit to get or keepe the thinges which they loue And hereupon S. Austin saith they are constrained and inforced to it as Paul said to Peter that he constrained the Gentiles to doo like the Iewes because by his example hee moued them effectually as Laelius told his friendes that they constrained him to graunt them a thing which they by earnest suite intreated For that he vsed the worde constraine in that sense himselfe hath declared other-where by saying that shepeheardes he meaneth hirelinges will they nill they will say the wordes of God that they may come to milke and wooll The spéech may séeme harsh that shepeheardes will they nill they will say the wordes of God but hee speaketh so to note that the loue of milke and of wolle that is of commodities constraineth them to féede the sheepe with Gods worde whether they like of it or no. Now because the doing herof is in and by their office of teaching which the chaire betokened as the chaire of Moses therefore he saith that Moses chaire did constraine the Scribes and Pharises to say good thinges and that amongst Christians hirelinges are constrained to say them in the chaire too As if I should say when in the Church of England a Papist preacheth against Poperie a worldling against worldlinesse an hypocrite against hypocrisie which some times they doo the pulpit constraineth them to preach so You should mistake me if you should imagin that I meane our pulpit hath a speciall grace to kéepe all preachers still from errour Euen so doo they S. Austin who dreame of such a chaire in his wordes Howbeit if you thinke that a chaire with him is of greater force then a pulpit with vs yet you can not thinke but that his wordes spoken of the Scribes and Pharises are meant of all Bishops who say and doo not For so he expoundeth the Scribes and Pharises often euen in the same booke which your Rhemists alleage Wherefore if the Pope by vertue of the chaire cannot erre as Pope then an other Bishop cannot erre as Bishop by vertue of the same chaire But any other Bishop you graunt may erre as Bishop Therefore you must graunt the Pope may erre as Pope
say withall that this encrease of wealth in the Church of Rome began after S. Gregories time yet are they notably disproued by S. Gregorie himselfe in whose reigne as it may probably be thought the Churches possessions were more then they be now at this present And this appeereth by sundry of his epistles where he maketh expresse mention of S. Peters patrimonie in Africke in Naples in Campania in Dalmatia in Fraunce in Italie in Sicilia in Sardinia and in many other countries Now then whereas for this which is the greatest part so good proofes may be made there is no doubt but for sundry other very great and large giftes of diuers Princes many Nobles men and women which were bestowed vpon that Sée the Bishops thereof can shew very good euidence when nede shall require Marry if any of all the Bishops that euer were in that seat flowing thus in wealth abused the same to any euill purpose or els their authoritie when they were become so mightie in any of the pointes which are mentioned by you I am so farre off from iustifying them therein that rather I râ—w to sée it and I condemne them therefore But thereof wee shall haue occâ—sion to treate more particularly in the chapters folowing Onely this is it which I go about to proue and defend in them that because of Christes promise of building his Church vpon that rocke and prayer also that their faith should not faile they neuer erred in iudgement or definitiue sentence And thus much I am sure the very same autours whose names here you bring in against me do mainteine no lesse then I doo howsoeuer they carpe and finde fault with the Popes naughtie maners Wherefore to drawe to an ende whether all that hath béene said hithertoo or shall be said hereafter touching the practise of the Popes supremacie doo proue his supreme authoritie or not I referre the iudgement thereof M. Rainoldes to your selfe and to euery indifferent reader Certes I haue endeuored somewhat to doo it though nothing so wel I graunt as such a cause requireth But as I said you shall sée it proued yet furthermore by the practise thereof which the Bishop of Rome hath alwaies vsed bearing himselfe as supreme pastour of our soules next vnder Christ which thing was neuer denyed him but graunted of all men without resistance Let their spéeches and déedes bee a iustifying of him and let their behauiour generally towardes him bée an instruction for vs to folow them in their well dooing Iohn Hart. Rainoldes If you loue me the better M. Hart for my plaine dealing in so weightie a matter as you say you must I would to God you would deale as plainely with me that I might in like sort loue you the better too But neither doo you yéelde to that which I haue proued by euidence of truâ—h and although you cannot disproue my proofes of it yet you seeke to shift them off by fraude and falsehood For whereas I shewed that the Pope pretending discharge of his office in gouernment of the Church hath gotten his temporall dominion from Emperours by treâ—son and rebellion and practised vnlawâ—ull power in thinges spirituall to the oppressing of Christendome and therefore erred in office yea in the supremacie which he hath vsurped ouer both the states spirituall and temporall you for the first point of his dominion temporall doo go about to cléere him by sophismes and lyes for the next of his tyrannie in spiritual things you smooth it as a lawfull autoritie abused for the last of his erring in office you abbridge it to iudgement and definitiue sentence and wrappe his supremacie vp in generall wordes as allowed by all men when in the particular pointes of the supremacie you can not iustifie it by any Festus the Roman thought Paul to bee madde the madnes was in Festus him selfe noâ— in Paul You thinke that I erre of a wrong perswasion the errour is your owne not mine M. Hart. The fautes of your dealing for the maintaining of your errour I will set before you if perhaps the Lorde will open your eyes and vntye your tongue that you may at length perceiue and confesse the Popes supremacie to be vnlawfull To begin therefore with the first point wherein you séeke to cléere him from hauing vsurped his temporall dominion you say that if we weigh thinges with indifferencie and in equall balance I shall wel perceiue that both Emperours and other Princes adioyning vnto him haue rather vsurped of his then hee of theirs Which if you tooke not thinges at hucksters handes without all weighing of them you would neuer say For that which I haue laide in one scale of the balance is the manifest truth of recordes euidences approued by the witnesse of writers verie credible who note the times the persons the meanes and all circumstances how the Pope vsurped And that which you lay in the other scale to ouerweigh mine is partlie impertinent and nothing to the purpose partlie vntrue and impudentlie forged The weightiest parcel of it is that which cometh formost namely that a good autour doth write that S. Peters patrimonie is greatly diminished through the Popes negligent looking vnto it What is that good autour M. Hart who writeth so Why doo you not name him Is it because you feare that I should finde he maketh nought for you if I knew him or that you would put me to the paines of séeking him I pray vse hereafter at least so much plainenesse to name me the autours on which your proofes are grounded sith I not onely name them but quote their places also whereon I ground mine that you may the better sift them and iudge of them The autour who writeth that which you alleage is Nicolas Clemangis a Doctour of Paris that liued about a ninescore yeares since in déed a good autour Who lamenting the wretched and corrupt state of the Church in his time declareth the Pope to haue béene the fiâ—ebrand of her calamities and disorders in that not contented with the fruites and profits of the Bishopricke of Rome and S. Peters patrimonie though very great and royal he laide his greedy handes on other mens flockes replenished with milke and wooll and vsurped the right of bestowing Bishoprickes and liuings ecclesiasticall throughout all Christendom and disanulled the lawfull elections of pastors by his reseruations prouisions and aduowsons and oppresâ—ed churches with first fruites of one yeare of two yeares of three yeares yea sometimes of â—oure yeares with tithes with exactions with procurations with spoiles of Prelates and infinite other burdens and ordeined collectors to seaze vpon these taxes and tributes throughout al prouinces with horrible abusing of suspensions interditements and excommunications if any man refused to pay them vsed such marchandize with suites in his Court and rules of his Chauncerie that the house of God was made a denne of theeues and raised his Cardinals as
comprehend in the second sort of Popes auouch it as fully and in as ample maner as any Popes sith them haue doon Rainoldes It is too cléere they doo not And that will I proue by the third sort ofPopes in the same places that your selfe alleaged out of the decretals and extrauagants and the Councell of Lateran For Paschal the second Innocentius the third Nicolas the third Boniface the eighth and Leo the tenth the autours of the chapters and textes which you quoted doo claime much therein that nether Innocentius the first nor Leo the first nor Gelasius nor Vigilius nor Pelagius nor Gregorie nor any of that sort claimed Hart. What one point that toucheth the substance of the Popes supremacie Rainoldes First their soueraine power ouer all Princes that they may depose them and that themselues are subiect to none not to the Emperour For Nicolas the third saith that the monarchie of both powers he meaneth ecclesiasticall and ciuill belongeth in the citie of Rome to the Pope by the donation of Constantine who thought it vnmete that an earthly Emperour should haue dominion there where God had set the Prince of Priestes And Boniface the eighth proclaimeth himselfe to be set ofGod ouer nations kingdomes to plucke vp and to roote out and so forth euen to iudge the Princes of the earth Which ordinance of Boniface renewed and approued by Leo the tenth hath béene put in practise accordingly by sundry ofthem Many kings and Emperours deposed by their sentence as your owne writers boast haue felt the proofe thereof and we haue séene lately their will in our Quéene and her father of famous memorie though God hath blessed where they cursed and held them vp whom they deposed But the second sort of Popes were so farre from claiming this power ouer al Princes that they claimed it not ouer anie Neither were they monarches of the ciuil power in Rome as I haue proued by Constantines donation but subiect to the Emperour to whom that soueraintie belonged as they acknowledged For Leo the first when the Emperour Martianus had summoned the general Councel of Chalcedon and sent out his writs for him and other Bishops as Emperours vsed to come thither although he nether liked the place nor the time appointed by the Emperour yet did he according as hee was commaunded The obedience of the rest I néede not shew in particular The dutiful submission of Gregorie to the Emperour Mauricius his Lord as still he calleth him may be a generall token of it But when the third sort of Popes bore the sway the state was turned vpside-downe In so much that whereas the Pope said before our most godly Lord the Emperour now must the Emperour say yea and be sworne to our most holy Lord the Pope And whereas the Emperour before did summon Couâ—cels called the Pope vnto them now the Pope denieth yâ— he may deale therewith and neither him selfe obeyeth nor suffereth others to obey him When Charles the fifth in the assembly of Spier had mentioned a general Councel and a national and order to be taken for matters of religion in the Imperiall assembly he was reproued by Paule the third for touching those things without naming the Pope to whom the soueraine power he said of gathering Councels ordering affaires of the Church is giuen Nay when the same Charles requested most earnestly that the Councell called by the Pope to Trent might be kept there not at Bononia whither the Pope of policie had remoued it the same Paule reiected his earnest request and would by no meanes yéelde thereto So plainely in sight so greatly in weight doo the later Popes differ from the former in the chiefest point of their supremacie ouer all and being subiect vnto no man Hart. It may be that the Popes of the second sort would not of modestie or could not for occasions claime their ful supremacie Rainoldes You should speake more truely and Christianly of them if you said they thought it not to be their right But would not or could not your own answere graunteth that they did not claime it Wherefore sith their supremacie implyeth soueraine power ouer kings and Emperours as it is defined by the last sort of Popes the second who were subiect to the ciuill powers and claimed no such soueraintie auouched not the Popes supremacie Hart. Yet ouer the spirituall powers they auouched it that is ouer Bishops And that is more then you wil yéelde too Rainoldes Though lesse then you lay claime too But nether ouer Bishops did they auouch that which your last sort of Popes doth and toucheth their supremacie most For Paschal requireth Archbishops to be sworne that they shall be faithful and obedient to him Yea the same othe of fealtie and obedience Innocentius the third exacteth of the Patriarkes of Constantinople Alexandria Antioche and Ierusalem Where the second sort of Popes as namely Gregorie acknowledged the Patriarkes to be his equals not his subiectes And they were so farre from offering that violence and iniury to them that they required not any such othe no not of the meanest Pastor in their diocese Hart. Yes that they did as you may sée by Pelagius Who decréed and ordeined that if any Metropolitan did not send to Rome within three monethes of his consecrtion to take his othe and receiue the pall he should be depriued of his place and dignitie Rainoldes Pelagius Where is that decree Hart. In the Canon-law whence it is alleaged by Franciscus Vargas a notable learned man king Philips counsellour and embassadour to Pope Pius the fourth He when the question of the iurisdiction of Bishops and the Popes autoritie could not be well agreed on in the Councell of Trent was called by the Pope to a consultation with the chiefest Cardinals Where he spake his iudgement of the point so wisely that it was thought fit his answere should be set in print Therein amongst many reasons and autorities for the Popes supremacie he saith that Pelagius declared it by this decree in that hee would haue all Metropolitans sworne to him Rainoldes This decree was made by a Popish Lawier not by Pope Pelagius For Pelagius least that he should rashly giue consent to the allowing of any Metropolitan who were not sound in faith required them to make profession of their faith and so to send for the pall that is to say for his consent whereof the pall was a token A Lawier of Paris one Remundus Rufus to frame hereof a stronger weapon for the Pope in whose defense he wrote hath chaunged the wordes ad exponendam fidem suam into these wordes dandae fidei causa so by dare fidem in steed of fidem exponere he proueth that Pelagius would haue their othes to the Pope whereas he required profession of their faith in Christ. Now Franciscus Vargas
for S. Austin and the Bishops of Afrike it is too manifest that they kept this new distinction as you terme it For of the two Popes whom you say they sought to they desired the one to assist them with his autoritie the other not to chalenge power in their Church causes A great fault of yours to say that S. Austin and the Bishops of Afrike sought to Caelestinus for the prerogatiue of his office when they dealt against his vsurped prerogatiue Greater if you did it wittingly and willingly Wherof your Annotations do geue strong suspicion in that hauing quoted all the other places they lâ—â—ue this vnquoted least the reader should find the fraude Hart. I was not at the finishing of our Annotations They who set them downe knew their own meaning and will I warrant you maintaine it But what a souerainty the Fathers yéelded to the Pope it may appeare by this as D. Stapleton sheweth that they thought no Councell to be of any force vnles he confirmed it For the Fathers assembled in the Councell of Nice the first generall Councell sent their epistle to Pope Siluester beséeching him to ratifie and confyrme with his consent whatsoeuer they had ordeined Rainoldes The Councell of Nice had no such fansie of the Pope Their epistle is forged and he who forged it was not his craftes-master For one of the Fathers pretended to haue writen it is Macarius Bishop of Constantinople Whereas Constantinople had not that name yet in certaine yéeres after the date of this epistle but was called Bizantium neither was Macarius Bishop of Bizantium at that time but Alexander Moreouer they are made to request the Pope that he wil assemble the Bishops of his whole citie Which is a droonken spéech sith the Bishops of his whole citie were but one that one was himselfe Unlesse they vsed the word citie as the Pope answering them in like sort that he conferred with the Bishops of the whole citie of Italie And so it is more sober but no more séemely for the Councell of Nice Finally neither Eusebius who was at the Councell nor Rufinus nor Socrates nor Theodoret nor Sozomen nor other auncient writers doo mention any such thing Only Peter Crabbe the setter foorth of it had it out of a librarie of Friers at Coolein But wheÌ„ce had the Fryers it Hart. The Fathers of the Councell of Constantinople the second generall Councel wrote to Pope Damasus for his consent to their decrees And that is witnessed by Theodoret. Rainoldes It is and so witnessed that it ouerthroweth the Popes soueraintie which D. Stapleton would proue by it For they wrote ioyntly to Damasus Ambrose Britto Valerian Ascholius Anemie Basill and the rest of the Westerne Bishops assembled in a Councel at Rome Nor only to them but to the Emperour Theodosius Yea to Theodosius in seueral and more forcibly For they requested him to confirme and ratifie their decrees and ordinances Wherefore if the Pope haue such a supremacie whose consent and liking therof they desired what supremacie hath the Emperor whom they besought to ratifie them and to confirme them Hart. Nay your own distinction of power and authoritie dooth serue well and fitly to this of the Emperour For their decrées and ordinances of doctrine were true and of discipline good though he had not confirmed them But more would accept of them as good and true through his word countenance As we see that many doo frame themselues to Princes iudgements Wherefore it was the Emperours autoritie and credit for which they desired his confirmation of their decrées not for any soueraintie of power that he had in matters of religion Rainoldes Not for any soueraintie of power that hee had to make matters true of false or good of euill but to make his subiectes vse them as good and true being so in déede Which perhaps the Fathers of the Councell meant too But your own answere may teach you to mend your imagination of that they wrote to Pope Damasus For the doctrine of Christ which they decréed was true the discipline good though he had not consented to it But more would accept of it as good true through his agréement and allowance As we sée that manie doe follow the mindes of Bishops Wherefore it was the Popes autoritie and credit for which they desired his consent to their decrées not for any soueraintie of power that he had in matters of religion Which is plaine by their crauing not of him alone but of other Bishops to like thereof also that the Christian faith being agreed vpon and loue confirmed amongst them they might keepe the Church from schismes and dissensions Hart. All Bishops might allow the decrées of Councels by consenting to them But the Pope confirmed them in speciall sort For S. Cyrill saith of the third general Councel of Ephesus that Pope Caelestinus wrote agreeably to the Councell and confirmed all thinges that were done therein Rainoldes S. Cyrill sayth not that of Caelestinus but of Sixtus Howbeit if he had yet this would proue autoritie still and not power As Prosper noteth well that the Nestorian heresie was specially withstood by the industrie of Cyril and the authoritie of Caelestinus But these very wordes of Cyrill touching Sixtus doe ouerthrow your fansie conceaued on the Popes confirming of Councels For the Councell of Ephesus was of force and strength in Caelestinus time by your own confession Notwithstanding Sixtus who succéeded him did confirm it afterward In déede the truth dependeth neither of CouÌ„cel nor of Pope though wheÌ„ Popes Councels were good godly minded they were chosen vessels and instruments of God to set forth the truth For as Ioshua sayd to all the tribes of Israel euen to the Priests also assembled in a Councell If it seeme euill to you to serue the Lorde choose you whom you will serue whether the Gods which your Fathers serued or the Gods of the Amorites but I and my house will serue the Lord so the right faith and religion of Christ is firme of it selfe and ought to be imbraced of euery Christian with his houshold whether it please the tribes that is the Church or no. But the Church is named the piller and ground of truth in respect of men because it beareth vp the truth and confirmeth it through preaching of the word by the ministerie of Priests in the old testament and Bishops in the new whom therefore Basil termeth the pillers and ground of truth Now the more there be of these who maintaine it and the greater credit they haue amongst men the stronger and surer the truth doth séeme to be and many yéeld the sooner to it For which cause the doctrine of Barnabas and Paul though assuredly true yet was coÌ„firmed by Iames Peter and Iohn who were counted to be
pillers yea by the Councell of the Apostles and Elders at Ierusalem and being so confirmed was receiued more redily and gladly both at Antioche and in other cities in so much that the Churches were stablished in the faith and increased in number daily The men of God therfore who in ancient time were assembled together to vphold the truth desired the consent some time of all Bishops as in the Councell of Sardica sometime of the Pope as in the Councell of Carthage not for that they thought that else their decrées should be of no force but because they knew that the consent of such would adde the greater credit to them And that generall Councels if they had desired the Pope to confirme them which all of them did not but if they had done so yet must haue done it in this consideration you may sée by a piller and ground of your Councel of Trent euen Andradius Who not only voucheth that most learned mē do most wisely thinke it as Alfonsus namely but alleageth also Cardinall Turrecremata the chéefest patrone of the Pope for proofe of the same or rather of a farther point For if there shoulde happen such a case sayth the Cardinal that al the Fathers assembled in a generall Councell should make a decree touching any matter of fayth with one accord and the Pope alone gainesaied that decree men ought in my iudgement to obey the Councell therein and not the Pope And why Because the iudgement of so many Fathers of a generall Councel seemeth to be iustly and worthily preferred before the iudgement of one man in a matter of faith Wherevpon he addeth that the Councell then is aboue the Pope not in power of iurisdiction but in autoritie of iudgement to discerne thinges and in amplenesse of knowledge Thus it is apparant by your owne Doctors that to confirme Councels importeth an autoritie the Pope had not power and that hée was not soueraine in autoritie neither no not as much as equall but inferiour to them So farre is it off from prouing his supremacie Hart. Though Councels be aboue the Pope in autoritie after the opinion of Cardinall Turrecremata yet you sée he setteth the Pope aboue them in power of iurisdiction wherin his supremacie doth principally stand And that did the Fathers acknowledge by their déedes too For Athanasius Bishop of Alexandria Paul of Constantinople Asclepas of Gaza Marcellus of Ancyra Lucian of Adrianople and very many other Bishops of the East being driuen out of their Churches by the Arians did appeale to the Pope as ecclesiasticall stories shew Rainoldes The stories shew it not but he who sayth they shew it sheweth that he dealeth with them in this point as in the former with S. Cyrill Hath he abused you so often and will you neuer cease to credit him Hart. The stories shew that they came to Rome to Pope Iulius and he for the prerogatiue and dignitie of his Sée restored them to their Churches perceiuing that the Arians had depriued them wrongfully Rainoldes The dignitie and prerogatiue of the See of Rome in restoring them was but of autoritie and honour not of power For the power of hearing and iudging their cause did rest in the Councell assembled then at Rome Which Iulius himself and Athanasius both do testifie Athanasius who speaking thereof ascribeth it plainly to the Councell Iulius who being reproued by the Arians for ouerthwarting that which they had done in their Councell answereth that the doinges of a former Councell may lawfully be sifted and examined in an other that themselues had offred to haue the cause debated so in iust iudgement and thereto had requested a Councell to be called that Athanasius and the rest appeered at the Councell and they who should haue also appeered made defaute that hereupon the Councell finding their iniquitie relieued the parties wrongfully oppressed to be short that whatsoeuer he dealt or wrote therein he did it on the Coūcels iudgement and consent not on his owne head Wherefore it was not the Pope but the Councell that heard and determined the causes of Bishops whether at first or on appeales Such power of iurisdiction nether did Iulius claime nor Athanasius giue him Hart. Yes there is an other epistle of Iulius wherein hée claimed such power and that vpon the canons of the Councell of Nice Rainoldes I told you of epistles which séemed to be written by some of the Popes horse-kéepers or cookes This is one of them It should be the very same that I alleaged extant in Athanasius But it is no liker it then black is to white The canons which it coineth with the image and superscription of the Nicen Fathers bewray the lewdnesse of it The more because Iulius in the same epistle as Athanasius hath it citeth their autoritie for the Councell aboue the Pope who in this are cited for the Pope aboue the Councell Wherefore sith Athanasius hath his right epistle as it is confessed you must be content to let the other go for a counterfeit Hart. Yet Socrates Sozomē report that Iulius wrote in his epistle to the Arians that whereas they called not him vnto the Councell therein they did vnlawfully because it was prouided by a law of the Church that things which were decreede and done without the Popes consent shoulde be voide Rainoldes If Iulius had writen so to the Arians Iulius had writen a manifest vntruth For by the Nicen Canons which were the chiefest lawes of the Church at that time it was ordered that Councels should be kept yeerely twise in euery prouince To all which it were ridiculous to say that they must call the Pope or that they might doo nothing there but what he liked of But Socrates and Sozomen did mistake Iulius as Stapleton doth now And whereas he had said know ye not that this is the maner and custome that ye should write to vs first that hēce might be decreed the thing which is iust they thought that he had spoken of himselfe belike and had meant the Pope by the word vs by which he meant the Councell For he wrote that epistle in the Councels name as Athanasius noteth and himselfe sheweth it by saying straight before ye ought to haue written vnto all vs that so that which is iust might be decreed by all Hart. Whatsoeuer you conceue of the doings and writings of Athanasius and Iulius yet can you not denie but Flauianus Bishop of Constantinople appealed to Pope Leo from the Councell of Ephesus deposing him vniustly And so did Theodoret Bishop of Cyrus too For the Emperour Valentinian witnesseth the one and Theodoret himselfe the other Rainoldes Flauianus appealed from the Councel of Ephesus but to a greater and a more lawfull Councell not to Pope Leo. Which appéereth by an epistle of Leo himselfe complayning to the Emperour Theodosius
of the fewnesse and oppression of the Bishops in the Councell of Ephesus and desiring that a generall Councell might be kept because Flauianus had appealed You must adde therefore the Empresse Placidia to the Emperour Valentinian and with the ones words of appealing to Leo take that the other sayth to Leo and to all the Bishops of these partes So Leo and the Bishops being ioyned together will make the Councell of Chalcedon by the which Councell the cause of Flauianus and his appeale was iudged The same Councell also did iudge Theodorets cause finding him guiltlesse restored him to his Sée Wherefore sith the Councell was iudge of the appeale if he appealed to Leo and not to the Councell it was an ouersight Unlesse perhaps he did not appeale as to a higher iudge that might restore him but as to a man of learning and autoritie whose credit and iudgement might helpe to proue him not guiltie And this doth the tenour of his request pretend Though asking wiâ—hall the aduise of Leo whether he shall beare that wrongfull depriuation or seeke to be restored he séemeth to haue thought of a further matter Which yet he toucheth so in speaking of troubling men and crauing Leos prayers that it is euident it lay not in Leo alone to restore him Wherefore the most that you may well imagine of an appeale made by Theodoret to Leo for remedie of the wrong done him is that Leo tooke his bill of appeale to preferre it to the Councell whereof he was President As with vs in England the billes are put vp to the Speaker of the Parlament that he may informe the Parlament thereof not as though himselfe had soueraine power to passe them Hart. Then you grant that Leo was President of the Councell as in déede he was and head of the Bishops therein as themselues say Which sheweth that they counted the Pope their supreme head Rainoldes You will find more heads then the Popes shoulders will be content to beare if you make such reasons First the Bishop of Corduba For Hosius was President of the Councell of Nice nor of Nice onely but also of Sardica and of many others Next the Bishop of Antioche or whosoeuer he were that had the roome in the Councell of Constantinople For the Pope had it not Thirdly the Bishop of Alexandria Hart. Nay Cyrill who had it in the third general Councel was Deputie therein to Pope Caelestinus as Euagrius writeth Rainoldes Caelestinus ioyned his autoritie to Cyrils But Cyrill was President as wel as Caelestinus in more mens iudgement then Euagrius Howbeit if he were not yet Alexandria will haue a head still For Dioscorus was President in the next of Ephesus neither he alone but also the Bishops of Ierusalem and Caesarea Wherefore if the Presidentship of a generall Councell do make a supreme head then Corauba in Spaine Alexandria in Egypt Ierusalem in Iewrie and other cities of the East may claime the supreme headship as well as Rome in Italie The Pope will be loth to haue so many partners But to deliuer him from that feare or rather the Church from his tyrannie and the truth from your sophisme there is a distinction in Cardinall Turrecremata which is worth the noting vpon this very point The PresideÌ„tship of Councels he sayth is two-folde one of honour an other of power Presidentship of honor is to haue preemineÌ„ce in place to propose things to direct the actions to giue definitiue sentence according to the voices and iudgement of the Councell Presidentship of power is to haue the right not onely of directing but of ruling their doings also and to conclude of matters after his owne iudgement though the greater part of the Councell like it not yea though no part like it Now the Popes supremacie chalengeth this Presidentship of power in Councels as though he alone were soueâ—aine iudge there which appéereth by his practise in the Councell of Vienna and by the Cardinals doctrine with the chiefest Papists But that which the general Councell of Chalcedon gaue vnto Leo in naming him their head was the Presidentship of honour as himself shewed in his Legates and Deputies who vsed all the Bishops as their fellow-iudges and concluded nothing but what they agréed of Wherefore the Presidentship which they gaue to Leo was no Papall soueraintie neither did they acknowledge him in that particular much lesse the Pope in generall to be their supreme head Hart. The Fathers did in general acknowledge the Pope and taught vs to acknowledge him our vniuersall Patriarke and Bishop of the Catholike Church nay to vse yet more the wordes of the most ancient Fathers our Prince the head of al Churches the top and the chiefe of the Apostolike company or as Epiphanius speaketh the chiefest the teacher of the whole world the ruler of the house of God an other father of the houshold and the first begotten whose seate as the most excellent Diuine S. Austin sayth hath the preeminence of a higher roome in the pastorall watch-tower which is common to all Bishops And will any man desire greater proofes of the Popes supremacie Rainoldes If any man doe he must take the paines to séeke them somewhere else Sure he is not like to finde them in your Stapleton For these are the chiefest of all in his treasurie Which therefore he culled out and sent them for a present to Gregorie the thirtéenth to shew what good wordes they giue of his Holinesse for his liberalitie toward the English Seminaries But he presenteth him with one title more which you haue omitted and yet doth it aduance him aboue all the rest Hart. None of the titles which the Fathers giue him Belike you meane that of the Emperour Rainoldes No I meane that of his owne Supremum in terris Numen In déede it hath no Fathers testimonie to proue it But as in this title he playeth the notable flatterer with the Pope so in the rest the notable sophister with you For the titles of our Prince the toppe the cheefe and chiefest of the Apostolike companie the teacher of the whole world an other father of the houshold and the first begotten are giuen by Optatus Chrysostome Epiphanius and a bastard Austin to Peter not to the Pope Stapleton alleaging them sayth that he vseth the wordes of the Fathers That is cunningly spoken For it is true he vseth their wordes though not their meaning As for the title of vniuersall Patriarke the Councell of Chalcedon which he quoteth for it gaue it not to the Pope neither Hart. No did not Theodore and certaine others there giue it to Pope Leo. Rainoldes A few poore suiters in their supplications to him and the Councell did séeke his fauour with it But neither the Councell nor any one Bishop of the Councell
hath ether mo Bishops or as many as al other nations haue For euery baggage-towne hath a Bishop there And these buggage-Bishops of whom there were more at the Councell of Trent then of all other nations did allow that doctrine Though neyther they perhaps allowed it in hart but were induced by Papall meanes to yéeld vnto it For the answere of Vargas touching the Popes supremacie made at Rome and published for instruction of the Councell assembled then at Trent doth shew that there was some sticking at the matter And your stories note that the Pope is fowly afraide of general Councels leaft they should hurt his State and commeth like a beare to the stake as they say when he is drawne to summon them What a doo was made before he could be brought to grant that the Councell of Trent should goe forward And while the Councell lasted he kept good rule at Rome but brake loose whē it was ended Besides it being ended twentie yeares ago there hath bene none since nether I beléeue is like to be in hast Where yet there should be one euery ten yeres by their own decrée All euident tokens that the Pope himselfe doth thinke that Bishops vnder him like not his supremacie and would cut it shorter if they might haue power and autoritie to do it Which if they would do though being sworne to maintaine it yea and to maintaine the reseruations the prouisions other excesses of it is it not manifest that they disallow it or detest it rather Hart. Our ancestours allowed it euer since the time that by S. Gregories meanes they were first conuerted to the fayth of Christ till King Harries dayes when heresie did roote it out Rainoldes Our ancestours had a reuerent opinion of the Pope long after S. Gregorie for S. Gregories sake and honoured him aboue all Bishops But when he began to reach out the pawes of his supremacie ouer thē in giuing Church-liuings and handling Church-causes and executing Church-censures they were so farre frō liking it that they made lawes against it two hundred yeres ago Euen in Queene Maries time when they restored that stoompe of his vsurped power which they had rooted out vnder King Henrie the eigth they prouided that hée should haue no more but that stoompe kept the former lawes in force against him still Wherefore though our auncestours gaue him great preeminence of honour some of power too yet the most they gaue him was but a Venice-Dukedome his Monarchie they neuer allowed to this day Which may bée sayd likewise of other Christian Churches that honoured him on like occcasiō as our neighbours of Fraunce Germanie For ech of them shewed their mislike and hatred of the Popes supremacie by supplications complaints offered to their Princes Yea Fraunce made lawes against it which might haue continued had not the Gentiles raged broken the bands a sunder And these of whose iudgements I haue spoken hitherto are such as your selues doe holde for Catholike Christians The rest Christians also though you cal them heretikes and schismatikes yet Christians the Churches of Greece and Asia in the East in the North of Moscouie in the South of Aethiopia in the West of Boheme Prouince Piemont heretofore the reformed Churches that are at this day in England Scotland Fraunce Germanie Flaunders Suitzerland and so foorth throughout Europe set lesse by the Pope then the former did That I might say iustly that except the crew of the Italian factiō wherein I comprehend the Iesuites and their complices men Italianate al Christian Churches haue condemned the Popes supremacie do till this day Wherefore if the matter were to be tried by the will of men so many thousandes of them Pastours and Doctours Synodes and Coūcels Uniuersities and Churches through all ages in all countries of al sorts and states might suffice to put the Pope from his supremacie At least they might make you to blush M. Hart who haue sayd in writing that all men did grant it him without resistance it was neuer denied him But sith it must be tried by the word of God and it is not writen in the booke of life I conclude that it is not a citizen of Ierusalem but a child of Babylon which they shall be blessed who dash against the stones And thus haue I shewed that the former point on which you refuse to communicate with vs in prayers and religion ought to bring you rather to vs then draw you from vs. It remaineth now that we sift the later of the faith professed in the Church of England Which if it be found to be the Catholike faith as in truth it will then is there no cause but you must néedes yéeld that we may go together into the house of the Lord. The tenth Chapter 1 Princes are supreme gouernours of their subiects in things spirituall and temporall and so is the othe of their supremacie lawfull 2 The breaking of the conference off M. Hart refusing to proceede farther in it HART Nay first why doe you take the supremacie from the Pope and giue it to the Prince who is lesse capable of it Rainoldes The supremacie which we take from the Pope M. Hart we giue to no mortall creature Prince nor other But the Pope hauing seazed on part of Christs right part of Princes part of Bishops part of peoples Churches as the chough in Aesope did trick vp himselfe with the feathers of other birdes the feather which the Romish chough had of our Princes we haue taken from him and geuen it to her Maiestie to whom it belonged according to the lesson of our heauenly Master Geue to Caesar the thinges which are Caesars and to God the things which are Gods Hart. It is not Caesars right to be the supreme gouernour of all his dominions in things spirituall and temporall But this is the supremacie which you giue our soueraine Lady Quéene Elisabeth Therfore you giue the Prince more thē i◠the Princes Rainoldes To haue the preeminence ouer all rulers in gouernment of matters touching God and man within his owne dominions is to be supreme gouernour of all his dominions in thinges spirituall and temporall But it is Caesars right to haue the preeminence ouer all rulers in gouernment of matters touching God and man within his owne dominions Therefore that is the Princes which we giue the Prince Hart. The Prince hath preeminence ouer al rulers within his owne dominions in gouernment of matters touching man not God For nether he nor any of the rulers vnder him may deale in them both Rainoldes They may For the ciuil magistrate is ordeined to punish them that doe euill and praise them that doe well But the euill to be punished and the good to be praised compriseth all duties not only towardes man but towards
the which the ministers of God are remoued from gouernance by the Pope who being not a voluntarie Senator as Tully iesteth at Asinius himselfe chosen by him selfe but a voluntary tyrant doth take vpon him selfe the rule of the whole church Who to get the soueraintie that he aspireth to doth cast off the foly of Paul and of Peter and neither will him selfe nor suffereth his to be subiect vnto higher powers Who autoriseth him selfe to giue and take away the dominions and kingdomes of the whole world as if that all Princes held their right of him Who chalengeth the two swordes as he termeth them the spirituall and temporall and that by the gospell because it was saide for sooth by the Apostles Beholde herâ— are two swordes Who hauing committed the temporall sword in part to ciuill magistrates and reserued it in part to him selfe hath put vp the spirituall sworde of all Pastors into his owne sheath Who of church-ministers hath made him selfe Cardinals felowes of kinges gardians of Princes Protectors of nations a Senate meete for such a â—arquin Who exacteth an oth of Emperours of Bishops of Christian common wealthes Uniuersities and Churches to be obedient vnto him Who admitteth I say not Cornelius the Centurion which Peter yet would neuer haue doon but the Lordes of Centurions euen Kinges and Keisars Emperours and Empresses to kisse his blessed feete Finally who being in Princely attire and accompanied with Princely traine serued not by common but by noble men wearing not a single but a triplâ— Crowne called by his Parasites our Lord God the Pope by discréete Doctors most good in grace most great in power as full of riotous pompe and pride as euer were the Persian kings z His clothes bedeckt with precious stones â—his gorgeous miter dight With iewels rare with glistring gold with Pyropus bright O very Troian truls not Troians hath taken the state ecclesiasticall of Christ appointed in noble order as an army set in aray and hath transformed it as it were with an enchauntment of the whoore of Babylon into a visisible monarchie and kingdome of the Romans And that the old saying might be fulfilled new Lordes new lawes such lippes such lettise as one said of an asse that was eating thistles this new Prince the Pope hath brought in new lawes to gouerne his kingdome in stéede of Gods lawes which Christ would haue to rule his Church and in stéede of the Canon of the holy scriptures he hath ordeined his Canon law Touching the vnrighteousnes of the which law least any man should think me perhaps to finde fault with that I haue no skill in as the shoomaker did whom Apelles warned not to presume beyond his shooe I had leiffer you should heare the iudgement of a learned Doctour and professour of the law then mine Francis Duaren a man of great skill in both the lawes ciuill and canon and named amongst lawiers the chiefest lawier of our time hath writen a learned treatise touching the holy functions and liuings of the Church as it were an abridgement of the canon law allowed by the iudgement of the Parlament of Parisâ— and set foorth with the priuiledge of the French king that no man can iustâ—y 〈◊〉 either the autor or the worke as hereticall In 〈…〉 then of the said treatise declaring that the body of the Canon law consisteth of two parts to weete Decrees and 〈◊〉 Decrees which were gathered together by Gratian 〈◊〉 epistles writen by sundry Popes he saith that in the â—irâ—t volume of Decretales conteining fiue bookes set out in the name of Gregory the ninth there are many things that doo much degenerate and grow out of kinde from that old discipline comprised in the former booke of Decrees And hence arose that saying which is common and famous amongst our countriemen he meaneth the Frenchmen Things haue gone ill with men since tales were added to Decrees that is since the time that in steed of the Decrees the Decretales did beare sway For the Church-causes had lost their olde simplicitie when Decrees were patched out with those tales as the world is wont to growe worse and worse So destenies do prouide That all thinges fall vnto decay and backe efisoones they slide As for the other volume the sixth booke of Decretales which Boâ—iface the eighth added it hath not bene receiued in the kingdome of France because the constitutions and ordinances thereof are thought to haue bene purposely made the most part of them in hatred and despite of Philip the French king and for the game of the court of Rome No not the Clementines neither nor Extrauagants the last part of the Decretales are voyde of like faultes nay the later lawes of the Popes be commonly worse then the former And this is the body of the Canon-law these are the Popes statutes by the which though very vnméete for the church in Duarens iudgement yet is the church of Rome gouerned and it is so gouerned that the Decrees which are the better part haue lesse autoritie the Decretales which are woorse haue greater force in Church-causes and are more authenticall Yea the matter came to that passe that Gratian the principall autor of the Canon law would haue had the Decretall epistles of the Popes to be accounted holy and reckened in the number of the Canonicall scriptures For the better compassing and credite whereof he did most shamefully corrupt a saying of S. Austins But it would not â—ay In so much that the Papists Alfonsus and Andradius are them selues ashamed of that his either wilfull fault or ouersight The Decretales therefore remaine not in the number of the Canonicall scriptures which hope the Giants fayled of through the diuision of their toungs yet equall in autoritie to the canonicall scriptures yea aboue them in deciding Church-causes at Rome For that which S. Bernard complained off to Pope Eugenius long since he might complaine off to any Pope in our time if he were aliue the lawes keepe a great sturre dayly in your Palace but the lawes of Iustinian not the lawes of the Lord. Whether iustly or no looke you to that For doutlesse the law of the Lord is vndefiled and conuerteth soules But these are not so much lawes as law-quarels and strifes subuerting iudgement Besides that the maner of dealing which is vsed in debating causes is too too abominable and such as is maruellous vnseemely for the church nay it were not seemely for the common place where ciuill matters are handled He meaneth that maner which the Popes Court of Chauncerie at Rome had bred long before though it were not growen yet to that bignesse to which it shot vp afterwarde euen that maner of dealing which is practised in the brabbles and cauils of aduocates