Catholike Reader to 1614. 1616 or any other yeare as well as 1619. by Robert Barker But admit there had beene amongst vt twenty seuerall Translations as you belye vs so long as authority gaue not countenance vnto them what can we be taxed for more then the Church of Rome may not so much as the ancient Catholike Church might For beside eight or nine seuerall translations into the Greeke tongue Saint Augustine is punctuall Lib. 2. cap. 11. de doct Christ that the seuerall Latine Translations in his time could not be numbred and Hierome in his preface vpon Iosua saith there were Tot exemplaria quod codices as many Translations as Copies Which variety he misliked but S. Augustine doth well like And in the Church of Rome at this day are moe seuerall Translations extant of the Scriptures into Latine then are in England into English beside the corrections of the Lovanists of Sixtus 5. and Clemens Octavus contrary repugnant to one the other Besides the infinite variety of the vulgar Edition not one copy almost like vnto another It cannot be obiected with such good reason vnto vs what edition doe you follow as it may be vnto you with reproofe enough Doe you follow Sixtus or Clemens in your quotations For we affixâ— no infallibility vnto any Translator as you doe to their Holinesse that haue thwarted and crossed shins with one the other And if you tye your men in publique passages vnto your authorized Edition so doe we our men in publike Liturgies in like sort Iam sumus ergo pares And you may turne your finger home vpon your selfe before you point it out to vs so that wee Papists haue not all one sort of Bible One or many if it had beene so materiall or so necessary for the Curteous Catholike Reader to know which Edition it was you followed but that you are meerely a vaine man the inscription might haue told vs which you followed without any great adoe or incumbring of the Page thus After English Bibles you might haue added in quarto by Robert Barker 1615. and not made so much adoe about plaine nothing but then you could not haue had this fling at so necessary a Point the great variety of our translations and such an opportunity was not to bee slipped for giuing the Protestants a wipe with a meere lye of the multiplicity of Bibles differing one from another Seconded with another of like nature For know for certaine Reader whatsoeuer thou art there is no such faithfulnesse in these citations as this man pretendeth For neither are all citations word for word expressed in the Gagger according to our Bibles of any Translation but sometime the sense onely sometime not that and sometime expresse consequence and no more Contrary to promise and vndertaking euen so when the sense is not differing from the supposall For by promise he was bound vnto expresse and direct words And yet pardon him this false asseueration that they are not so written as he pretended not in that Edition of Robert Barker As for instance Luc. 24. 27. 8. 13. Math. 9. 3. 3. 8. and 3. 5. 6. and 19. 12. Act. 15. 14 15. 1 Cor. 14. 32. 2 Cor. 11. 2. and 2 Cor. 5. 10. Philip. 2. 30. Esay 49. 21. And haply other places beside these This is the first point Reader to serue thee for thy profit and togather fruit thereout A second is touching the splendour of Truth which indeed is admirable and attractiue Falshood and fraud are corner-creepers but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Truth is euer with a cheerefull countenance and as the verticall sunne at noone which hauing dispelled both the darknesse of the night and fogges of the day shineth forth in brightest glory But there are shadowes as well as substances et notâ maior imago most an end in course of kind the shadow is of greater aspect then the substance Truth is appearing as well as Being The diuell will seeme an Angell of light Not the veriest Theese that euer tooke purse but will say of his fellow and sweare for himself we are honest men Change but the tearmes the case is yours Sir Gagger The truth is your owne is it not Oh take it as granted though nothing more questioned or so questionable yet the Truth is onyour side there is no â—ay You may speake it boldly and stand to it stoutly to your Catholike Readers For if you want Knights of the post themselues will supply the place and sweare it That notwithstanding the Protestant Ministers haue endeauoured to obserue you would say obscure the same by so many varieties of translations and by such an infinite number of corruptions and falsifications yet neuerthelesse their condemnation is so expresly set downe in their own Bible and is so cleare to al the world that nothing more needs hereto but only that thou know to reade and to haue thine eyes in thy head at the opening of this their booke Euen as you put the words into their mouths as a witnesse at large in case of Tithes once did sweare in my owne hearing he knew the place Tithable for 300. yeares and yet was aged but 99. yeares This man spake with a good will to the cause So will your Catholikes if you aske them touching Protestant Ministers their Translations Corruptions and Falsifications beleeue you forestall you protest and sweare for you accordingly Can you desire greater Curtesie then so Some variety of Translation betwixt ours and yours your selfe haue taken the paines to obserue in these Propositions 7. 14. 15. twice 25. 29. 38. 46. and happily some others Are these Corruptions or Falsifications of the text you charge them not so you cannot you dare not doe Variety of Translations for all your enlarging there are not many As many or moe in the Church of Rome If so not authorised you will say Why no more are ours The Councel of Trent hath authorised yours and the Church of England representatiue ours Neither one nor other this or that for Authenticall variety of Translation there may be some if this make Corruptions or Falsifications your Authenticall Latine is in a poore case or rather a shop of Corruptions to depraue and obscure the splendour of Truth which is such and so passing bright notwithstanding that it shineth forth aboue and against them all For if a man can but reade and haue his eyes in his head at the very opening of the booke he shall finde your Bibles infinitely full of such varieties which no man will deny per aduenture not your selfe who yet may claime to weare a Liuery as one of Belzebubs attendants in this kind And for Corruptions and Falsifications if they be so infinite and so cleere it had beene honesty to haue named halfe a score halfe a dozen one at least to haue acquitted your toung of Lying and slandering as it is Calumnia est non accusatio There are quoted by you in your Abridgement 276 seuerall places
nature of his greatnesse Hic Rhodus hic saltus This is that you should haue expressed out of our Bibles or the Fathers In setting out his greatnesse otherwise you doe but trifle Haue it hee must first and then practise it Happely the execution will bound it out Let vs see how farre Luke 22. 32. And when thou art conuerted strengthen thy Brethren You reade you say confirme In good time reade so still Strengthen and confirme no great ods in either if it be shewed what his greatnesse was and yet strengthen is more than to confirme the Originall is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to stay and hold vp from falling to the purpose and present case of Peter who was to fall and foulely in denying Christ Strengthen or confirme must needes imply execution of greatnesse for to confirme and strengthen what is it but to practise and execute his greatnesse ouer them A poore practise and sorry greatnesse not of soueraigntie to which you driue but of superintendency at most in his Pastorall charge to plant and to water to doe no more It is true He that doth strengthen and confirme is greater than hee that is confirmed but in that act onely of confirming not in vniuersall iurisdiction I hope Your ghostly Father if you were a Potentate and at poynt to dye as his duetie is and office confirmeth you in your Faith Because hee confirmeth you and in that hee confirmeth you hee is your better will you take him for your Lord and Soueraigne therefore Paul strengthened Peter when he went not aright to the Gospel What was then become of Peters headship can your sheepes-head tell To confirme in faith requireth nor implyeth no supremacy in power No other confirmation is intended there Goe cast your Cap then at Peters Primacy from confirming his Brethren See more proofe of your folly Mark 3. 16. Where Saint Peter in the list of the Apostles is onely named first which doth not necessarily inferre hee was the chiefe but wee graunt him a chiefe a prime a first place Wee acknowledge him the greatest amongst the Apostles in many respects And what of this No more but this First you belye vs in your position Secondly you cannot claime your Popes Monarchie from any greatnesse that Saint Peter had Act. 1. 1◠not the 13. Hee speaketh first proposeth a case Will Pope Vrban be contented to doe no more will he callenge no other royalty take it vse it let him goe as farre as euer Saint Peter went as a Bishop and not as an Apostle and wee will goe along with him Therefore in conclusion your texts of Scripture are not to any purpose at all to proue Peters Primacy but you a poppet Much lesse your Fathers see them who list for I haue seene them more times than I haue fingers and toes and could neuer see any such regality in them Theophilact calleth him Prince of the Disciples and so doe I as Aristotle Prince of the Phylosophers and Virgil Prince of Poets who had no commaund for al that either ouer Poets or Phylosophers Eusebius in his Chronicle calleth Saint Peter the first Bishop of Christians Admit hee doe What then First is in respect of time of place order and authoritie Eusebius expresseth not how he meaneth first nay doth hee call him first at all in any sense In my Eusebius I finde no such matter What is in yours I cannot tell I reade but this Petrus Apostolus cum primus Antiochenam Ecclesiam fundasset Romam mittitur vbi Euangelium praedicans xxv annis eiusdem vrbis Episcopus perseuerat Where Romam mittitur is not much for his greatnesse or that principality you giue vnto him and preaching the Gospell is lesse than that Cyril of Hierusalem calleth him Prince and most excellent of the Apostles I adde the Greeke Text is more for your aduantage 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 He that standeth before and is head ouer the Apostles And againe in his xi Catech which belike you neuer read no more I guesse did you the other but tooke it vp on credit by reta 〈…〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Peter Prince as you call him of the Apostles a principall Preacher of the Church Titles of honour Quis negat of great honour I adde such as neuer was any like vnto it but honour and aduancement as it is confined so is it designed how farre whereto in what sense He stood first in ranke hee was chiefe among so was Ioab ouer 30. but not King vpon them or Lord ouer them There is an headship which will not reach that illimited power giuen to the Pope Our Lord Vice-God vpon earth Saint Chrysostome hom 55. in Math. neither calleth him Pastor nor head of the Church Some well-willer of the cause added the words In Greeke wee haue but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a man that was a Fisher But admit both Pastor and Caput too what is it to purpose Wee deny no titles giuen vnto him wee deny your inferences vpon those titles If you will thanke me for it I will helpe you to tenne times as many moe titles as you haue collected as transcendant as any of these and when I haue done to as large and ample giuen to Saint Paul Doe you shew mee but one place of any one Father that giueth him that power you challenge to the Pope I except not Leo nor yet Gregorie and I will subscribe viz. for vniuersalitie of iurisdiction infallibilitie of iudgement and power direct or indirect ouer Kings and Kingdomes This is your Helena First chiefe great or greatest will not content you nor satisfie ambition now in the russe Vndertake this trifle not out the time in pleading so idlely and vainely for Saint Peters prerogatiues which wee the Church of England deny not VIII That Saint Peters faith hath failed ANd yet Saint Peter denied Christ Dare you deny that Belike in your opinion and new diuinitie a man may deny Christ and his faith not fayle Turne Turke and his faith not faile onely turne Protestant and his faith faileth But wee must hold it howsoeuer for it is contrary to our owne Bible Luke 22. 3. I haue prayed for thee that thy faith faile not Your Proselites may know you are an Empostor That propose it in these words so opposite to Scripture and euent That leaue it so suspence without distinction Saint Peters faith fayled after this very prayer and assurance and yet Christ obtained what hee did pray for God heard him euer how can you reconcile this Your Masters consider Saint Peter two wayes euen in this prayer made by our Sauiour for him as a priuate man as a publique person or as they loue to speake Head of the Church As a priuate person Christ did pray for him that though his faith fell totally for a time it yet might not faile eternally and for euer as Iudas failed and fell and hee was heard in that he prayed for Peter denied but repented hee
I confesse I haue dealt with this man as I would not haue dealt with euery one nor so as happely my person and calling would in some mens opinion require but sure as he and such as he deserue to be dealt withall For shall I suffer him to rayle vpon to blaspheme to calumniate to belye so impudently the Church of England as he doth beside his Tapster-like phrases of Ale and Hostesses and not make him heare of it on both his eares but guild him ouer with good language 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Let himselfe or his companions or any Papist in the packe goe honestly sincerely soberly scholler-like to worke Let him set affection faction partiallity sinister ends apart Let him come home to the poynts controuerted without rowling rambling rauing ioyne issue instantly with the Question where it lyeth I am for him no man more ready more willing more submisse more desirous to goe calmely and sedate to worke for Gods glory the Churches tranquilitie the good and benefit of my selfe and others To learne to heare to be aduised to yeeld to euidence and conuicting proofe out of Scriptures out of Fathers the totall Tradition of the Church No otherwise willing to deale with moderate men then I haue and doe with that worthie Baronius in his kinde But for this man those that thinke otherwise must pardon me As a wise man is to be heard with attention so a foole must be answered according to his folly And so haue I answered this goodly Gagger Thus Curteous Reader hauing giuen thee an account of my comming vpon this employment and secondly of my carriage of it with the reason of my demeanure in it I come to the Gagger to cope with him leauing thee to the Protection of the Almighty Windsor December 28. Thine in Christs seruice RI MOVNTAGV THE PREFACE answering that of the Gagger's to his Catholike Reader IAm not nor would you haue me it seemeth by your inscription Sir Gagger much interessed in this your Preface For you will not I suppose admit meâ— for one of your Curteous Readers and I professe I am none of your Catholike Readers that is as you intend it according to the Romancutt Your inscription is onely to the Catholike Reader your addresse alone vnto the Cuâ—â—eous Reader And sure I am you neede both the one and other Catholike and Curteous or none at all to ouer-view your pure Naturalls Indeed because Catholike beleeuing any thing therefore so curteous admitting admiring any thing You are sure of a Curteous one without more adoe if he be a Catholike one that readeth it Such Readers you leade in a string by the nose you neede not pray them their patience spare that paines and engagement you are sure enough of so much patience as heart can wish though otherwise affected or but indifferent Readers would count it a pressure to peruse such idle treatises as you permit your selues leaue to send amongst them But Sir what incongruity is this which your Gagger-ship presenteth vs with at the first Gaping It was intended by you and accordingly fitted to choke vp the new Gospell and Gospellers for euer The very title doth challenge that opinion and threaten that performance and yet see your vnaduisednesse you would not haue it put into their mouths at all Catholikes alone are addressed and inuited to it that is Biddengape to begagged They onely are to reade it and to receiue aduice in what sort to vse it that is to serue themselues thereof with fruit and profit Whereas in all Eristicall discourses those ad oppositum are to be Readers if not onely yet principally as men to be conuerted or confounded of that which is written against them For my part I desire not nor would I willingly maske vnder a Catholike cloake at all yet as some Protestants sometime out of a desire to be Eye-witnesses of your Antique trickes there doe couertly repaire vnto your Masses so for once I care not if I take vpon me the stile of a Curteous and Catholike Reader to heare your aduice concerning those same points which are so very necessary for your Catholikes in perusing this treatise the better to serue themselues thereof with fruit and profit in all and in the seuerall points no doubt of great and much behoouefull obseruance The first point is an excuse of some negligence or at least ouersight in the very title of the Pamphlet For whereas the refutation of the errors of the Protestants so vaunted of was vndertaken to be out of expresse texts of their owne Bibles this indetermined generality may amuse and puzle the Reader who will be to seeke without all question out of which English Bible the alleaged passages are extracted Well thought vpon and to purpose Bonum factum had hee beene so punctuall and precise in his Texts of Fathers to bee seene for affirming God knoweth what oftentimes in none of which the editions are specified being many diuers and different In many of which no place designed or but at rouers and randon or els falsly and not to purpose Some aduice would haue beene thought vpon here Bibles are of more speciall care I grant Therefore as this was necessarily done so in discretion that should not haue beene left vndone And yet what such necesssity to tell the Reader out of which English Bible they were alleadged Great doubtlesse For Qui bené distinguit bene docet England hath brought forth within these few yeares past to the number of twenty seuerall Bibles I grant that perchance to the number of twenty and twenty thousand in many seuerall impressions and editions in folio in quarto in octauo as many hath Rome and Lions and Antwerpe and Paris and other places nay farre moe brought forth seuerall sorts of the vulgar Latine and sent them abroad into the world It was very vnaduisedly therefore done of Bellarmine Valentia Vasquez and the rest of our Controuersors not to giue vs a speciall direction vnto that precise Edition which they followed as you haue done for yours of 1615. in quarto by Robert Barker that we might addresse our selues in perusing Controuersies vnto the Edition by them followed the time place and quantity thereof Surely a materiall and most remarkeable aduice Catholikes could neuer haue perused this treatise with profit without this Oh but the Protestants sorts of Bibles are sarre different one from another Meane you in forme So are yours but then you enlarge beyond art and skill There are but fiue seuerall forms of Bibles at the most You mean in matter For the translations differing one from an other Then in plaine English you lye Name me ten of this twenty if you can Some different Translations there haue beene of late but authorized I know but two The Bishops as they call it and this last which hath perchance beene printed in seuerall formes twenty and twenty times but without diuersity in the Translation So that you might as well haue directed your