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Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
authority_n	bind_v	church_n	law_n	2,400	5	5.0344	4	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A08533	The picture of a Puritane: or, A relation of the opinions, qualities, and practises of the Anabaptists in Germanie, and of the Puritanes in England VVherein is firmely prooued, that the Puritanes doe resemble the Anabaptists, in aboue fourescore seuerall thinges. By Oliuer Ormerod, of Emmanuel Colledge in Cambridge. Wherunto is annexed a short treatise, entituled, Puritano-papismus: or a discouerie of Puritan-papisme.	Ormerod, Oliver, 1580?-1626.	1605 (1605)	STC 18852; ESTC S113478	77,758	124

supreame authoritie in making ecclesiasticall orders committed the hearing and determining of their controuersies to his highnesse Christian Princes also haue euer exercised this their authoritie e Euseb lib. 4. ●e vita constant Constantine called himselfe a Bishoppe out of the Church and hee made lawes as f Euseb lib. 2. de vita Const Eusebius recordeth in thinges pertaining to holinesse towards God to the appointing of meete thinges for the Church of God Th●odosius his successor tooke the same course a Sozomen lib 7 12. Hee made moste seuere Lawes against all those that crossed the streame of Christian Religion Yea b Vi●elib 1. 2 Legum Franciae all Princes and Potentates retained this their prerogatiue vntill the time of Charles the great and Lodouicus after him But by what other meanes did your lawlesse Anabaptists oppugne the Mgistrates authoritie The Germaine OVr Maisterlesse and lawlesse Anabaptists in processe The 12. sēblance of time began to strike at the head of Gouernment in generall would haue framed a bodye of men like the body of Polyphemus without his eye or like the confused Chaos of olde time when height depth light and darkenes were mingled together for they attempted as c Hemīgius et Bullinger aduersus Anaba Gastius de ●rro●ibu● catabaptist Hemingius Bullinger and Gastius doe recorde a paritie and equalitie of ciuill estates The Englishman The Lord who made two great lights the greater light to rule the day the lesser light to rule the night and who in the beginning established a superioritie in al creatures his will is that there should bee a Maisterie and Domion in euery order of men and that paritie in a Christian Common-wealth should moste carefullye bee shunned as being the Mother of Anarchy and confusion Neuerthelesse our Sectaries also as heereafter shall be shewed haue attempted paritie in the Ministrie and I feare that equalitie of Ministers would pull on equalitye in the other estates I feare I say and that not without cause for the chiefest amongst them saith flatlie in a book extant to the view of the world that d T. C. page 144. sect 1. The gouennment of the Common-wealth must bee framed according to the gouernment of the Church From which wordes I reason thus The gouernment of the Common-wealth must be framed according to the gouernment of the Church but there must be equalitie by T. C. his confession in the Church ergo But to returne to your Anabaptists did they thus seeke to ouerthrow your common-weale and state of gouernment The Germaine YEs and yet they in words protested that they endeuoured The 13. sēblance to take no au●horitie frō the ciuil Magistrate as appeareth by these words of a Zuinglius in Ecclesiast Zuinglius Though they protest and by oath deme that they take any authoritie from Magistrates yet shortly after wee should haue seene it come to passe that they would haue beene disobedient to all lawes of Magistrates if once they had increased to that nūber that they might haue trusted to their owne strength The Englishman Our Puritanes will make as solemne protestations as any men can doe by oath denye that which your Anabaptists did but I protest to vse his maiesties words b 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 L. 2. page 42. that ye shal neuer finde with any highlād or border theeues more lies and vile periuries then with these phanaticke spirits we may well say of them as Zuinglius said of your Anabaptists Though they protest and by oath denie that they take any authoritie from Magistrates yet shortly after should we haue seene it come to passe c. But I maruaile they would attempt to ouerthrow the Magistracie The Germaine IT is not to be maruelled at for they sought as Maister The 14. sēblance Bullinger saith c Bulling aduers Anabapt ●ol 95. to bee free from all Lawes and to doe what they listed Their talke vttereth nothing else saith d Gastius de erroribus Catabapt Gastius but libertie in externall thinges Yea It was their opinion as one of your owne e H●oker of ecclesiastical pollicie writers hath obserued that a Christian mans libertie is lost and the soule of man redeemed by Christ is iniuriously drawne into seruitude vnder the Yoake of humaine power if any lawe be now● imposed besides ●he Gospell of Iesus Christ The Englishman Lawes made without contradiction to positine Lawes in Scriptures and receiued by a whol● Church are such as that they which li●e within the bosome of that same Church must not thinke it a matter indifferent eyther to yeild or not to yeild obedience For as Maister a Perkins in his treatise of conscience Perkins sai●h wholesome Lawes of men made of thinges indifferent so far foorth binde conscience by vertue of the generall commaundement of God which ordaineth the Magistrates authority that whosoeuer shall wittingly and willingly with a disloyall minde eyther breake or omit such Lawes is guiltie of sinne before God Yea the very lawes of men may after a sort be tearmed the law of God The Emperours saith Saint b Aug. Epist 166. lib. ● contra secundum Gandentii epistolam Augustin when they commaund good it is none but Christ who commaundeth by them Notwithstanding all this our Puritanes vpon my knowledge thinke that a Christian mans libertie is to liue as hee list and for this cause some of them haue refused to receiue the Lords supper kneeling c. They will not forsooth haue their soules drawne vnder the yoake of humane power And a thousand of the Clergy did not long since c See their surplicatiō to the King groane vnder the burden of humane rites and ceremonies Thus you see that our Sectaries thinke it seruitude and an vnsupportable burthen to submitte their neckes and soules to the yoake of humane obedience in thinges indifferent which as our Gracious Soueraigne hath well obserued d See the sum of the conference page 71 smelleth very ranckly of Anabaptisme comparing it vnto the vsage of a Beardlesse Boy one Iohn Blacke who the last conference his Majestye had with the Ministers in Scotland in December 1602. tolde him that he would hold conformity with his Maiesties Ordinances for matters of Doctrine but for matters of ceremonie they were to be left in Christian libertie vnto euery man as he receiued more and more light from the illumination of Gods spirit euen till they goe madde quoth the King with their owne light but I will none of that I will haue one Doctrine and one Discipline one Religion in substance and one in ceremanie But what other thinges haue you obserued in these your peeuish and peruerse Scismatickes The Germaine I Haue obserued that they were of such a peruerse nature The 15. sēblance as that they would not onely take vnto themselues libertie in thinges indifferent and therein omit their duetie a Gastius d● erroribus

and so giue them that reuerence which is due to the Messengers of God But to let this passe I pray you what busi●es haue you at the Parliament The Puritane I am the mouth of my Brethren to the Honorable Senate of Parliament that some of our Ecclesiasticall lawes may be repealed and changed The Protestant Were I worthy to bee the mouth of my Brethren to that Honorable Senate I would make humble sute that you might be seuerely punished for seeking to repeale change those lawes which were enacted by graue and learned men You would not be so busie with your Billes at the Parliament if that law were of force amongst vs which as b Demost cōtr● 〈◊〉 Demoste●es testifieth was of force amongst the Locrians viz That he that should offer ●o repeale and change a●●cient lawes and put vp new should come with a Halter about his Neck to the Parliament that if there were better reason against his Lawes he should be hanged vp for his ●olde attempt The Puritane I would be 〈◊〉 a 〈◊〉 the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 The Protestant Well follow your owne 〈◊〉 yet let me tel you with a Seneca in 〈◊〉 Seneca that it is not good to be busie in a will ordered state But I pray you make Auricular confession vnto me tell me in myne eare haue you no other businesse at the Parliament The Puritane Yes if we cannot procure an alteration of the Iewes we will make sute for a dispensation The Protestant I cannot see how it may stand with equitie that some should be bound to shewe their conformitie and obedience to Lawes and others be dispensed with It is Seneca his saying b Seneca in Epist Acqualitas prima pars aequitatis est Equalitie is the first and chiefe part of Equitie Againe such a dispensation would breed diuision For a diuision in Lawes maketh a diuision in Kingdomes and causeth partaking among the people and chusing of sides and therwithall strife enuy emulations contentions and a thousand other such mischiefes And as diuision in Lawes causeth diuision in Kingdomes so diuision in King-domes causeth the ouerthrow and subuersion of King-domes For it is a sure principle and maxime which our Sauiour giueth in the Gospell A kingdome diuided against it selfe cannot stand Now if the Kingdome of Sathan diuided against it selfe cannot stand how can a Kingdome of flesh and blood and of motrall men But though no such danger were likely to ensue vpon such a tolleration and conniuencie yet it standeth not with any conueniencie that one people within the same land and vnder the same gouernment should bee vnder diuers lawes It is 〈◊〉 his saying and it is an Oracle for truth that they ought to be vnder one Law that are vnder the gouernement of one King a Curtius lib. 10. Eiusdem iuris saith hee esse debent quisub eodem rege victuri sunt It is also the iudgement of auncient fathers that all those that liue in the same Church together should bee vnder Law indifferently and should bee enforced by the Lawe to accommodate themselues to the customes of the place wherin they liue In his rebus saith Saint b August Epist 86. Augusten de quibus nihil certi statuit scriptura diuina mos populi Dei vel instituta maiorū pro lege tenenda sunt And in another place c Aug. Epist 218. Quod neque contra fidem neque contra bones mores iniungitur indifferenter est habendum et pro corum inter quos viuitur societate seruandum est And Saint Ierome holdeth it very meete that Ecclesiasticall traditions namely such as doe not hinder faith should bee obserued as they are deliuered of our Elders that the custome of one should not be ouerthrowne with the contrarie customes of others His words are these d Hieron ad Luciuium Traditiones ecclesiasticas praesertim quae fidei non officiunt ita obseruandas vt a maioribus traditae sunt nec aliorum consuetudinem aliorum contrario modo subuerti With these auncient Fathers of the Church our latter writers goe hand in hand Gwalther writing vpō the first to the Corinthians saith thus e Gualther in 1. Cor. 5. Let euery Church followe the manner of Disciplyne which dooth moste agree with the people place and time And in the Preface to the same Epistle he saith that in rites and ceremonies there can bee no better rule for a graue and wise Christian then that he doe after that manner the which he seeth vsed of the Church vnto the which he shall paraduenture come And Hemmingius holdeth it an haynous sinne to break the ordinances of the Church f Hēmingius in syntag cap. de adiaphoris Qui violat saith hee ecclesiasticam politiam pec at multis modis Zanchius also propoundeth vs this rule to obserue that in externall thinges wee would applye our selues to the customes of the Countries where wee conuerse I will acquaint you with his wordes a Zanchius de operibus Dei part 3. l. 4. c 2 Tenenda stregula Apostoli de his externis rebus quae etiā apud Gentiles visitate sunt vt quae non pugnant cum verbo Dei nullam redolent vel superstitionem vel faeditatem ea● pro more consuetudine regionis vbi degimus vna cum alijs obseruemus Further if you please to heare Doctor Whitakers hee is no colde aduocate Proctor in this point He doubteth not to say that the Church hath authoritie to make Lawes in causes ecclesiasticall and to inioyne men to obserue them and to punish the refusers I will giue you his expresse words b Whitak controuers 3. de concil quaest 1. Habuit Ecclesia semper authoritatem l●ges Ecclesiasticas condendi sanciendi easque alijs imperandi eos puniendi qui non obseruarent As for Maister Perkins he is so far frō exempting any frō shewing their cōformity obediēce to y● good lawes of the Church as that hee holdeth them guilty of sinne before God that doe wittingly and willingly with a disloyall minde eyther breake or omit them His wordes are these c perkins in his treatise of conscience Wholesome Lawes of men made of thinges indifferent so far foorth bind conscience by vertue of the generall commaundement of God which ordaineth the Magistrates authoritie that whosoeuer shall wittingly and willingly with a disloyall minde eyther breake or omit such Lawes is guiltie of sinne before GOD And in an other place of the same treatise The Lawes which the Church in proper speech is said to make are dicrees concerning outward order and comelinesse in the administration of the word and Sacraments in the meetinges of the Congregation c. And such Lawes made according to the generall rules of Gods word which requires that all thinges be done to edification in comelinesse for the auoyding of offence are necessarie to be obserued and the word of God bindes d It dispenses with none all men to them so farre foorth a● the keeping of them maintaines decent order and preuents open offence But what neede I drawe mine arguments from the Cisternes of humane authoritie It is the Apostles direction that we should a Phil. ● 16 all proceede by one rule and minde one thing that wee should b 1. Cor. 1. 10. all bee knit together in one minde and in one iudgement and that we should c Phil. 1. 27. all continue in one spirit and in one minde God Almightie whose work alone it is that those who dwell together in one house shall bee of one minde so magnifie his work amōgst vs y● we who dwell together in one Kingdome may now at length be of one minde and liue in peace And thus I leaue you wishing first of all your conformitie if that cannot be had my next wish is that you were dealt withall as Phillip of Macedon dealt with two of his subjects in whom there was little hope of grace d Alterum ● Macedonia fugere alterum persequi iuss●t hee made one of them to runne out of the countrie and the other to driue him So his people were rid of both FINIS

other sleights besides these that you haue already mencioned The Germaine The 9. semblance YEs b Sleidan in C●m 5. there was one Thomas Muncer a Preacher who as Sleidan and other Germaine-writers reporte did greately labour both by his conferences in priuate by his Sermons in publike to draw the common people from their liking of the present estate The Englishman It hath likewise beene the practise of our factious preachers in their verball Sermons to speake against the stat● ecclesiasticall the book of common prayer the rites ceremonies of the Church of England For the proofe heereof I referre you to the very confession of their owne lippes On Tuesday saith c Anno 1586. one of their owne side T. C. kept Maister Fens Lecture the Text Psalme 122 4. Vnto the end taking thornes as T●emelius doth and vrging the discipline the want whereof he affirmed to be the cause that some friendes for sooke our Church And as this is the practise of some of our factious Ministers in England so is it also the practise of the same faction in Scotland Yea d 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Page 38. 39. they snapper out grosselye with the truth of their intentions informing the people that all Kinges and Princes are naturally enemies to the libertye of the Church and can neuer patientlye beare the yoake of Christ with such sound Doctrine fed they their flockes The Germaine The 10. Sēblance THe Anabaptists did not content themselues therewithal but to the end they might doe y● more harme they published factious Bookes to the view of the world as may bee gathered by this speech of Maister Zuinglius to the Magistrates in his time a Zuinglius de Baptism Si hoc cuiuis hominum impune facere licebit vt quae priuato suae rationis consilio adinuenit in vulgus spergat inconsulta imo resistente etiam vniuersatotius ecclesiae authoritate breui plus errorum quam fidelium Christianorum in ecclesia erit cernere If it bee lawfull for euery man to publish abroad among the people those thinges which he hath deuised of his owne head before he hath consulted with the Church nay against the authoritie of the whole Church in short time we shall see more errours in the Church then there be faithful men and Christians And in an other place Si hoc permittamus vt capitosus quisque male-feriatus homo c. If we suffer euery headie braineles fellow so soone as he hath conceiued any new thing in his minde to publish it abroad gather disciples and make a new sect in short time we shall haue so many sects factions that Christ which scarse with a great paine and labour is brought to vnitie in euery church should be deuided againe into many parts The Englishman Neyther did our Puritanes therewithall content themselues but that their poyson might ranckle the farther to the disturbance perrill both of the Church common-wealth they haue published a great number of Bookes which are as fit for the fire as the Bookes of curious Artes Act. 19. Yea and they haue also exhorted the common-people to peruse these their sedicious Pamphlets I pray you say they b In a Booke of theirs entituled the state of the church of England c. Page 10. when you come to London see if you can get these bookes The Ecclesiastical Discipline A learned discourse of Ecclesiasticall gouernment The Counterpoyson A Se●mon on the 12. to the Romans and Ma●ster Cartwights last reply some of which bookes haue been extant this dozen yeares and yet are not them answered and you shall there finde that the gouernment of the Church is contrary to the word of God But not to speake onely of their Bookes in g●nerall l●t vs take a view of the Contents thereof in particular The Germaine Our Sectaries did stuffe their bookes with inuectiues and out-cries both against the Magistracie and the Ministerie TO begin with the Magistracie they taught as Maister The 11. sēblance a Bulling aduers Anabap. Fol. 19. Bullinger also recordeth that the Ci●il Magistrate hath no authoritie in Ecclesiasticall matters and that hee ought not to meddle in causes of Religion and Faith The Englishman Our Sectaries come not farre behinde them heerein as appeareth by these their spee●hes b T. C. lib. 1. Page 192 for the making of orders and ceremonies in the Church saith T. C. they doe where there is a constituted ordered Church pertaine vnto the Ministers of the church and to the Ecclesiasticall gouernours and that as they meddle not with the making of ciuill Lawes and Lawes for the common-wealth so the ciuill Magistrate hath not to ordaine ceremonies partaining to the Church c T. C lib 2 Page 1●5 And againe No ciuil Magistrates in councels or assemblies for Church-matters can eyther be chiefe moderator ouer-ruler Iudge or d●t●rminer d Admon 2 No ciuil Magistrate say the admonitors hath such authoritie as that without his consent it should not be lawfull for ecclesiasticall persons to make any church-order or ceremonie e Admon 1 And againe To these three ioyntlie that is the Ministers Seniors and D●acons is the whole regiment of the Church to be committed By this you may see that our Sectaries doe shake hands both with the Anabaptists the Papists But albeit these three contrary factions haue vnited ioyned themselues together and doe al ioyntly oppugne the Princes authoritie in causes ●cclesiasticall yet the authoritie of the sacred Scriptures the judgement of the auncient Fath●rs the decisions of auncient Counsels and the practi●e of Christian Princes in the p●imatiue Church are able to seuer and dis-ioyne all their forces To beginne with the Scriptures they giue sufficient warrant to ciuill Gouernours to ordaine Lawes in Ecclesiastical causes and doe expressely teach that a 2. Reg 12 4 2 Chro. 19. 4. Ibid●m 30 1 34. 3. Iehosaphat Hezekias and Iosias did make Lawes for the recalling excercising of the Seruice of God As for the Fathers they holde it to bee an Oracle for truth that b Aug. Epi. 48 Kinges doe serue Christ in making lawes for Christ Yea c Aug. Epi. 50 Rex aliter seruit Domino saith Saint Augustine quia homo est aliter quia etiam Rex est Quia homo est ei seruit viuendo fideliter quia vero Rex est seruit leges iust a praecipientes contraria prohibentes conuenienti vigore sanciendo A King serueth the Lord one way as he is a man and an other way as he is a King As hee is a man he serueth him by liuing faithfully As he is a King he serueth him by making lawes with conuenient vigor to cōmaunde that which is right and forbid the contary But not to insist onely vpon Saint Augustins iudgement The d Vide Sozomen lib. 1. cap 17. Bishops that came to the counsell of Nice gaue to the Emperour

on the Popes side in this matter His wordes are these c lib. 2. page 48. The Christian Soueraigne ought not to be called the hoad vnder Christ of the particular and visible Churches within his Dominions The Puritane But doe any of our writers spoy le the Ciuil Magistrate of all gouernment in Ecclesiastical matters as the Papists doe The Protestant Yes the Admonitors say in plaine tearmes that d Admon page 126. to these three ioyntly that is the Ministers Seniors and Deacons is the whole regiment of the Church to be committed Now if the whole gouernment of the Church be to be committed to Ministers Seniors and Deacons what authoritie remaineth to the ciuill Magistrate in the gouernment of it The Puritane a These are the words of T. C. page 153. I answere in the name of the Authors of the Admonition that the Prince and ciuill Magistrate hath to see that the lawes of God touching his worship and touching all matters and orders of the Church be executed and duely obserued and to see that euery Ecclesiasticall person doe that office whereunto he is appointed and to punish those which faile in their office accordingly As for the making of the orders and ceremonies of the Church they do where there is a const●●uted and ordered Church pertaine to the Ministers of the Church c. The Protestant I reply with the wordes of the late Reuerend Archbishop b In his defence of the answere to the Admon page 694. 695. 696. VVhat no more but to see them executed how differeth this from Papists The Papists giue to the Christian Magistrate in Ecclesiasticallmatters potestatem facts noniuris that is to see those lawes executed and put in practise that the Pope and his Cleargie shall make and to be as it were their executioner but not to make any lawes in Ecclesiasticall matters for doth not Saunders a popish writer say the same c saunders fol. 64. Although I do not deny saith he that the knowledge of a fact that belongeth to the Ecclesiasticall lawe may be committed to Kinges and Magistrates and before the Ecclesiasticall cause be determined the King may vse his authoritie to this ende that there may bee some quiet place prepared where the Bishops shall consult and that the Bishops be called to the same place at a certaine day and that in the meane time while the matter is in determining common peace may bee preserued euen among the Priestes themselues To conclude after the cause be determined and iudged by the Priestes the King may punish him with the sword which hee carieth not in vaine or by some other corporall punishment which shalrefuse to obey the sentence of the Priestes a Muscul in locis com-titu● de magistratu Musculus also setteth out this Popish opinion touching the authoritie of the ciuill Magistrate in Ecclesiasticall affaires very plainly in these wordes Those whome they call Ecclesiasticall Persons and wee call them Papists will not commit to the Magistrate any further authoritie in Religion then to bee the keeper and reuenger of it and of their Ecclesiasticall Lawes that the Ecclesiasticall pollici● may remaine immoouable wherefore they deny hin to haue authoritie in that hee is a Magistrate to make or to publish any Ecclesiasticall lawes because such thinges pertaine to those that do represent the Church whose decrees and constitutions must bee maintained and defended by the authoritie of the Magistrate But to leaue this resemblance what arguments doe the Popish Doctors vse against the Princes authoritie in causes Ecclefiasticall The Puritane b Sanders lib. 2 cap. 1. fol. 27. Saunders c Harding against the Apologie fol. 118. Harding and other of them do quote 2 Chron. 198. 11. which place maketh indeede fully against them for Iehosaphat had chiefe authoritie and gouernment both in thinges pertaining to the Church and in thinges pertaining to the Common-wealth but for better execution of them the one hee did commit to bee executed by Amaziah the Priest the other by Zebadiah a Ruler of the house of Iuda euen as the Kings Maiestie being in all causes both Ecclesiasticall and Temporall within these his Realmes and Dominions supreame gouernour committeth the hearing and iudging of Ecclesiasticall matters to the Reuerend Fathers of the Church and of Temporall matters to the Right honourable the Lord Chancelour and other Iudges Now had Iehosaphat nothing to doe with Church-matters because he made Amaziah Priest iudge in the same they may as well say that bee had nothing to doe in Temporall affaiers because he also appointed Zebadiah to heare and determine them The Protestant True and yet T. C. quoteth the selfe same place to prooue the selfe same thing a T. C. page 145. sect 1. looke saith he in the second Booke of the Cronicles in the 19. Chap. and in the 8. and 11. verses and you shall see that there were a number appointed for the matters of the LORD which were Priestes and Leuits and there were other also appoynted for the Kinges affayers and for matters of the Commō-wealth c. The Puritane But in what other thinges agree we with the Papists The Protestant 1. The Papists would not haue the scriptures read in the Church to the people No more would your Puritane-popish writers for b In their viewe of po Pish abuses remaining fol. 2. they blush not to say that reading is no feeding but as euil as playing vpon a Stage and worse too 2. The Papists condemne our Book of common prayers set out by publique authoritie and the whole order of seruice so doe you 3. The papists say that our Sacraments are not rightly ministred so say you likewise as hath beene already shewed 4. The Papists say that we haue no right ministerie in England no Pastours no Bishops because they be not rightly and canonically called to these functions the selfe same doe you affirme as hath also beene shewed 5. The Papists auouch that we are not the true church no that wee haue not so much as the outward face and shew of the true Church the selfe same thing do your Puritan-popish teachers auouch in their first Admonition page 33. and in their second admonition page 6. The Puritane All this notwithstanding we come farre short of the Papists for Popery is as a ● B●in his toyle for 2. legged Foxes chap. 3. one truely saith an hotch-potch and miserable mingle-mangle of all Sathans forgeries and diuelish heresies VVith Carpocratian Heretickes they set vp the image of Christ and other Saints with the Anthropomorphits they pain● God the Father like an olde man with a gray beard with the Pelagian Heretickes they maintaine free will power to iustifie our selues and to fulfill the commandements with the Messalians they mumble their Mattens Pater nosters and seauen Psalmes by number vpon a payre of Beades with the Tatians Cataphryges Montanistes and Ebionites they seeke sanctification in eating and not eating in marrying

si●●ipsius verā mentem dian●i in et analogian And of the same iudgement are all other writer of note The Puritane Though all other writers bee of the same judgement yet it is to no purpose to tell me of them for they wil not mooue mee for say what you will against the Bretheren I will nearer beleeue that you can bring them within the compasse of Heresie The Protestant Yes and within the compasse of idolatrie too The Puritane I would gladly heare that The Protestant That obstinate Puritanes are Idolaters I trust to make it plaine and euident by this argument Those that worshippe their owne opinions conceites and fancies and yeelde not to the truth though neuer so plainly demonstrated are 〈◊〉 But obstinate Puritanes doe worshippe their owne opinions conceites and fancies and yeeld not to the truth though it hath beene plainely demonstrated vnto them therefore they are idolaters The Puritane I deny first your proposition The Protestant That it is Idolatrie to worshippe a mans owne opinions and not to yeelde to truth I prooue it by this speech of the Apostle c Coloss ● 5 couetousnes is idolatrie From which saying of his I dispute thus If the Apostle hold those to bee idolaters that did set their hearts vpon their ●i●ches and were so wedded vnto them as that no perswasion could bring them from the loue of thē the consequence is not to be rebuked that we inferre vpon it that we may as well tearme them idolaters that doe set their hearts vppon their opinions and are so wedded vnto them as that neyther the authoritie of sacred scriptures nor the iudgement of auncient Fathers 〈◊〉 the consent of late writers nor the good lawes of Christian Princes can driue them from them My proposition is also confirmed by the iudgement of the 〈◊〉 Fathers a 〈◊〉 in l. 1. 〈◊〉 i● Habac. cap. 5 〈◊〉 et 〈◊〉 saith 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 his 〈◊〉 in 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And in 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 b Hieren in Dan. Cap. 3 Qui 〈◊〉 sum dogma 〈…〉 faci●nt et quantum in se 〈…〉 idolu● falsitatis c Hieron in Hier●m c ●2 Againe vs● 〈◊〉 in templ● Dei quae interpretatur ecclesia siue in 〈…〉 ponitur idolum quando 〈…〉 And in the pla●● 〈◊〉 quoted d Hieron in Habacu cap. 2 Si 〈…〉 credere veritati ●t 〈…〉 in 〈◊〉 studio perseuerare cong●●e 〈◊〉 discere sperat 〈…〉 et facit 〈…〉 Saint Austen also is of the same iudgement with Saint Hierom as appeareth in his booke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈…〉 it a 〈◊〉 and a bas●●●i●de of idolatry to worshippe a mans owne fancies then to worshippe the Sunne the Moone the Stars His vordes are these e Aug. de ver● relig cap. 38. Est alius deterior et inferior ●ul●us simulachrorum quo phantasmata sua colunt et quicquid 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 superbia veltimore cogitando imaginati fuerint religionis nomine obseruant With these auncient Fathers agree some of our best la●e writers f ● Bilson in 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the true difference of Christian subiection part 1. page 30. A corrupt and vitious Religion saith a reuerend ●nd learned Bishoppe i● an inward and Ghostly worshippe of I 〈…〉 saith another learned 〈◊〉 to worshippe 〈…〉 not to yeelde to truth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 so 〈…〉 To him consent●● Maister D. Sutcliffe in his challēge cap. 5. Perkins who preuenting a secret obiection saith thus h Perkins in his Booke intituled a warning against the idolatrie of the last times ●●●ge 15. It may be further said that false opinions conceiued of Christ 〈◊〉 not straight way 〈…〉 I 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Hierome Euen to this 〈…〉 set vp in the house of God 〈◊〉 in the ●ear●● and soules of the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 when a new Doctrine is d●uised Againe a false opinion is an idoll of falshood The 〈◊〉 to the Discipline of the Church haue they beene vanquished in open disputation The Protestant You haue heard I am sure of the late conference wherat our Princ● 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Emperour Constantine who as a Eus●b de ●it● Constantin lib. 1. cap 37. Eusebius recordeth shewed an excellent and especiall care towards the Church of Christ Iesus calling Councells of Bishops when any dissention 〈…〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by God not disdayning to be present and conferre with th●● that so he might the rather keepe them in Christian peace and who as the same writer b Eus●b de ●ita Cōstantini ● 3 cap. 13. testifieth marked aduisedly what euery man sayd helped eyther side disputing tempered such as kindled too fast reasoned my ●dly with each part and vndertooke ioyntly with them to search out the truth confirming their decrees with his seale least other Iudges Rulers should infringe them The Puritane I haue heard of the conference but I pray you what was the issue therof The Protestant Surely the Agents for the Millinary Plaintiffes were there vanquished in disputation and driuen to c See the 〈◊〉 of the conference confesse that their opinions were meere nouelties and new deuised fancies All which notwith-standing many of their Proselytes and followers doe still continue obstimate So that we may well say of them as Saint Austen said of the like p●●●ish fellowes in his time d August de baptis contr● donat lib 3 cap. ●2 mal●●nt peruersis vocibus veritati reluctari quam confessis erroribus paci restitu● God giue them grace to recant their ●rrours and not to shew themselues still like Pilate who would not alter any thing he had written but said that which I haue written Iohn 19 22 I haue written The 3. Dialogue VVherein is shewed that it doth not stand with equitie that some Ministers should bee bound to shew their 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 others be dispensed with The Protestant WELL ouer-taken Sir whither trauell you The Puritan● I trauell towards the Parliament The Protestant What are you one of the Burgess●s The Purita●● No I am a Minister The Protestant Are you a Minister why weare you not then a Priest cloake with sleeues as you are inioyned in the late Book● of 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 Ecclesiasticall I tooke you for one of the Burgesses because you differ not from them in ●abit The Puritane What reason is there that the fashion and 〈◊〉 of Ministers 〈◊〉 should bee different from other me●● The Protestant 〈◊〉 great reason 〈◊〉 asked his messengers who●e hee had sent to the God of Ekro● for ●racle of what 〈◊〉 and habit the man was that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and they answeared a 2. King ● ● he was an ●airie man 〈◊〉 girded with a girdle of leather about his ●oynes Which was a marke of knowledge enough to Ahaziah though they knew not his name It is Elijah the Thes●ite said hee Now as the Prophet Elijah did weare a different habite whereby hee was known from other men so should Ministers doe that when we meete them we may know them to bee Ministers