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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A88107	The nevv quere, and determination upon it, by Mr. Saltmarsh lately published, to retard the establishment of the Presbyteriall government, examined, and shewed to be unseasonable, unsound, and opposite to the principles of true religion, and state. Whereunto is annexed a censure of what he hath produced to the same purpose, in his other, and later booke, which he calleth The opening of Master Prinnes Vindication. And an apologeticall narrative of the late petition of the Common Councell and ministers of London to the Honourable Houses of Parliament, with a justification of them from the calumny of the weekly pamphleters. / By John Ley, one of the Assembly of Divines at Westminster.	Ley, John, 1583-1662.	1645 (1645)	Wing L1885; Thomason E311_24; ESTC R200462	96,520	124

of their Brethren at Westminster nor any distast at the rest of the Directory for any particular contained in it But yet for all this some are so unwilling to beleeve there will be peace especially in the point of Government of the Church that they faine the Parliament and the Assembly of Divines at irreconciliable difference about it the Divines requiring the stampe of Divine right to be set upon it and the Parliament resolute to yeeld no more authoritie for it then a meere Civill Sanction can give unto it Answer To this we answer 1. That the Divines doe not affirme the whole frame and fabrick of Church Government to be of Divine right for it is made up of particulars of different kinds viz. Substantials of Government which have their warrant either by ordinance in his word or direct inference from it as that there must be Church Officers Pastors and their Ordination Elders and Deacons and Church Offices both of preaching administration of the Sacraments and Government Church censures admonition suspension excommunication and accidentall or circumstantiall additions which are of prudentiall direction and consideration as for Pastors when and in what manner they shall be ordained whether a Preacher should treat on a Text or on some Theologicall Theme or Common place when and how oft and to how many at once the Sacraments should be administred how many assisting Elders should be in a Parish and whether they should be chosen and admitted to their office with imposition of hands and continue in it for a yeare or two or for terme of life in what forme of words admonition suspension or excommunication should be comprised and pronounced with divers others of like sort This distinction the Divines of the Assembly make of the contents of the Directory for the publique worship of God throughout the three Kingdomes and the same hath the like use in the Church Government desired their words in the last lease of the Preface of the Directory are these We have after earnest and frequent calling upon the Name of God and after much consultation not with flesh and blood but with the holy Word resolved to lay aside the former Leiturgy with the many rites and Ceremonies formerly used in the worship of God and have agreed upon this following Directory for all the parts of publique worship at ordinary and extraordinary times Wherein our care hath beene to hold forth such things as are of Divine Institution in every Ordinance and other things we have endevoured to set forth according to the rules of Christian prudence agreeable to the generall Rules of the Word of God 2. Though the Honourable Houses have not yet asserted the constitution of the Church Government as ordained in or derived from or as agreeable to the Word of God because as some render the reason it is not the manner of Law-makers to mingle matter of Religion with their Civill Sanction yet when they present it compleat in all the parts thereof it may be they will at least give intimation of the conformity of it to the Canonicall Scriptures according to the distinction of the parts before proposed and it is not so strange and unusuall as some pretend for Legislative authoritie to borrow a religious reputation for what they inact or ordaine from the Word of God for we find instance thereof in the Statutes (a) Concerning the Sacrament of the Lords Supper the words of Institution are set downe and 15. places of Scripture quoted in the Marginewith letters of reference in the Text. Poult Abridgm p. 826. of the first yeare of Edward the sixth c. 1. (b) The Statute of the first of Q. Mery c. 2. repealed as causing a decay of the honour of God and the discomsort of the professours of the truth of Christs Religion Ibid. p. 1005. In the first of Eliza. c. 2. (c) For as much as profane swearing and cursing is forbidden by the Word of God Ibid. p. 1403. In the 21. of K. James c. 20. (d) Nothing more acceptable to God then the true and sincere service and worship of him according to his holy will and that the holy keeping of the Lords Day is 2 principal part of the true service of God Ibid. p. 1427. In the first of K. Charles c. 1. (e) For as much as the Lords Day commonly called Sunday is much broken and profaned by Carryers c. to the great dishonour of God reproch of Religion c. Ibid. p. 1434. In the third of K. James c. 1. Lastly the present Parliament hath done the like already for some parts of the Reformation authorised as for the Ordination of Ministers which is a chiefe part of the Presbyteriall authoritie of which they say * So in the Ordinance for Ordination ordered to be printed October 2. 1644. p. 2. Whereas it is manifest by the Word of God that no man ought to take upon him the office of a Minister untill he be lawfully called and ordained thereunto and that the worke of Ordination that is to say an outward solemne setting apart of persons for the office of the Ministery in the Church by Preaching Presbyters is an Ordinance of Christ and is to be performed with all due care wisdome gravitie and solemnity It is ordained by the Lords and Commons c. And in their Ordinance for the Directory Jan. 3. 1644. They beginne with these words The Lords and Commons assembled in Parliament taking into serious consideration the manifold incenveniences that have risen by the Booke of Common Prayer in this Kingdome and resolving according to their Covenant to reforme Religion according to the Word of God and the example of the best Reformed Churches have consulted with the Reverend Pious and Learned Divines called together to that purpose and doe judge it necessary that the said Booke of Common Prayer be abolished and the Directorie for the publique worship of God herein after mentioned be established and observed in all the Churches within this Kingdome c. If it be said that Ordination and Worship are usually distinguished from Power and Government and that both of them have more expresse warrant from the word of God then can be found in Scripture for the Presbyteriall Government I Auswer 1. That the question is not now whether there be difference betwixt them but whether there be such difference betwixt a Civill Sanction and Divine ratification that the one may not well be brought in with the other 2. That though there were much use made of the distinction of the key of order and the key of power or of Iurisdiction in the time of the Prelates so that they confined that wholly to the Clergie principally to themselves while they sold or trusted out the key of power or of jurisdiction to Vicars generall Chancellours Archdeacons Commissaries and rurall Deanes yet is Ordination one of the principall parts of the Presbyteriall power and if it be as it is commonly taken matter

the duty of such as have the Legislative power wherein he that finds the fault is fittest to doe the office of an Admonitor unto them to suspend their authoritie for matter of Religion and to ordaine and decree nothing of that subject to be received or observed 2. A second reason which hath reference to Conscience he brings in upon experience thus * §. 5. p. 4. We have found by experience that the speedy setling of Government upon a Nation hath made reformation take little root save in the outward man or formall obedience because they received not reformation in the power of the word but of the State which went not so deepe into the conscience but they could part with it at any time upon a Law And he concludes his observation with a patheticall interrogation O then why doe not dayes speake and multitude of yeares teach knowledge To this may be replyed 1. That if he meane it in respect of our owne Kingdome and that experience is most like to come within his cognizance the fault was not in the over-speedy setling of a Government but in the choyce of a wrong Government viz. that of Prelacy which by an Act and Ordinance of Parliament and by the Nationall Covenant is cryed downe 2. If when Discipline is established Doctrine were abolished or for a time suspended and silenced there were some force in this exception of Mr. Saltmarsh but Doctrine goeth on where Discipline cometh in as a Schoole master is at the same time in Office both a teacher and a corrector of his schollers and so the power of the word may go deep into the conscience and the Discipline or Government is rather an helpe then an hindrance to that operation for 3. The Discipline or Government is as an hedge or wall about the Doctrine of Religion a goad or spurre to the meanes of grace to bring men under the power of the Words operation a curbe to licentious courses all which conduce much to the keeping of the conscience voyd of offence toward God and man and though with many the reformation reach no further then the outward man yet that is not to be imputed to the Discipline which brings them to the Word but to their owne corruptions and Satans sleights and deceits which hinder the Words kindly and saving worke upon them 4. Where the Discipline hath beene rightly chosen and timely established God hath blessed it with better fruits as in the Kingdome of Scotland whence it is that that Church hath had the favour and honour from God to be free both from heresie and schisme where with we of this Kingdome and State have abounded so much the more as the Discipline bath beene the more delayed which agreoth to Mr. Saltmarsh his politick observation in these words * M. Saltmarsh his practise of policy pol. 81. p. 69. When places of authoritie be likely to be vacant much more when authoritie it selfe is at a nonplus be ready in proiect with a successour long interregnums or interstices i. intermissions in government are the Winter and ill season of a State where the nights are long and the dayes short 5. And lastly for his Epiphonema with the words of Elihu forementioned which are taken out of Iob 32. vers 6 7. Why doe not dayes speake and multitude of yeares teach knowledge they make nothing for his purpose for the meaning of them is not that Government or Discipline or any other usefull thing should not be with all convenient speed established but that the ancient with whom is wisdome Iob 12.12 the gray headed and very aged men Chap. 15.10 who have had the experience of many dayes and yeares should be heard and heeded in matter of advice and consultation before such green-headed Counsellours as Rehoboam followed to his ruine 1 King 12. vers 13 14. SECT V. The Argument against the speedy setling of Church Government taken from example of the New Testament in generall answered A * § 3. p. 3 4. Third head of exceptions against the speedy so he calls it Paragraph 5. though the word hastily please him better in the body of the Quere setting up of Government is taken from Christian examples Contrary to 1. The New Testament in generall 2. In particular to 1. The example of Christ and that two wayes in respect 1. Of his description § 6. p. 4. 2. Of his practise § 3. p. 3 4. 2. The example of the most ancient Christians and excellent Ministers of Christ 1. As of John Baptist Christs forerunner 2. The Apostles his followers 1. For the generall § 4. p. 4. We never read in the New Testament of a Government setled upon any that were not brought first under Gospel obedience by the power of the Word and Spirit which thousands of Congregations in this Kingdome are not for as in materiall buildings stone and timber are not to be clapt together without hewing and squaring so not in the spirituall and whereas in the Temple there should be neither axe nor hammer heard because things were fitted before hand and so laid together I question how this could be in our Congregations now I beleeve there would be now more of the axe and hammer heard then of the building seen● Answer 1. Here he argueth from the example of the New Testament negatively which considering the difference and disproportion of the times is very impertinent For the conversion we read of in the New Testament was from Paganisme and Judaisme to Christianitie and while men were Iewes or Pagans they were uncapable of a Christian Government our Congregations in England consist of professed Christians who as such are capable of and lyable to a Gospel Government without which the sanctification of the Sabbath the preaching of the Word cannot be well ordered nor either of the Sacraments rightly administred And though in thousands of Congregations there be many whom the power of the Word and Spirit hath not brought to Gospel obedience it is no cause why a Gospel Government should not be established over them nay rather it is reason why it should be hastened upon them and we may impute the profanenesse of the people to the want of it or of some parts of it whereby Church Governours may be enabled to put a difference betwixt the holy and the profane the uncleane and the cleane Ezek. 22.26 For the rod of Discipline 1 Cor. 4.21 may have a salutary operation in the Church as the rod of correction in the family Prov. 23.13 14. 2. He makes a comparison betwixt a materiall and a spiritual building See § 11. as in the materiall building stone and timber are not to be clapt together without hewing and squaring so not in the spirituall of which words if I rightly understand them the meaning is that Churches must be gathered and made up onely of holy reformed Christians which are as hewen or squared stones to which I answer 1. That similitudes may illustrate a truth

hath by soft and slow degrees passed the debates first of the Assembly and afterward of the Parliament and as for approbation so for execution it passeth by degrees the Civill sanction which authorised first an Ordinance for Ordination after that a Directory for worship a good while after that was the Citie of London and the Parishes annexed made a Province and divided into Classicall Presbyteries and then with some intermission of time was a power granted to choose a Committee for triall of Elders and now lately a Vote and an Order for the choice of Elders in every Parish and since that an Order or Ordinance touching admission to and rejection from the Sacrament of the Lords Supper and yet there remaine other parts of government to be added to them which we hope will be authorized in time convenient and the sooner the better SECT IX Reasons taken from rules and considerations of prudence answered THus much for his Reasons which respect Religion Now for the Politique part of his Quere in 1. Rules or considerations of Prudence 2. Examples of practise His rules of Prudence in the generall are three the first he layeth downe thus * §. 7. p. 5. The more time saith he for trying of spirits and proving of all things there is the lesse danger to that State of erring in things received and authorized and of involving it selfe into the designes of Ecclesiasticall power then which nothing hath sooner broken the Civill power as may be seene in Popish Kingdomes and our late Prelaticall There can be no great danger in the not sudden incorporating the two powers Since Moses is not alive to bring downe the iust patterne of the Tabernacle there may a new starre arise which was not seene at first which if we shut up our selves too soone while the smoke is in the Temple cannot appeare Answer 1. It is the dutie of a State that is of them that governe a State not onely to try spirits but to rule them and rather to rule them then to try them and for that purpose the sooner they be brought under government the better for the rod and reproofe saith Solomon give wisdoms Prov. 29.15 And on the contrary the longer they live without the yoke of Discipline the more enormous will they be and so the observation of Solomon will be verified a child left to himselfe bringeth his mother to shame Ibid. and his father too whereof we have an example in his brother Adouijah 1 King 1. vers 5 6. And for proving of all things to be imposed there is a due proportion of time to be observed which may as well be too much as too little and it hath beene if not the fault the ill hap of our Church and State to have the Government fluttering upon the Lime-twig of deliberation at Westminster when it should be upon the wing of actuall execution all over the Kingdome 2. Whereas he makes it a dangerous matter for the State to involve it selfe into the designes of Ecclesiasticall power because it is a meanes to breake the Civill power as may be seene in Popish Kingdomes and our late Prelaticall His position and proofe are most unseasonably and impertinently applied to the Presbyteriall government which abjureth both Popish and Prelaticall dominion by solemne Covenant and taketh a course not onely to suppresse and bury but to keepe them down that there be no feare of a resurrection of them 3. And when on the contrary he saith * § 7. p. 5. There can be no danger in the not sudden incorporating the two powers since Moses is not alive to bring downe the iust patterne of the Tabernacle there may a new starre arise which was not seene at first which if we shut up our selves too soone while the smoke is in the Temple cannot appeare This is a very perplext and confused expression darkning the truth which he should illustrate wherein if his meaning be that there is no great danger in the not establishing Ecclesiasticall government by the Civill State or that if now it were done it were too sudden and hasty it is a groundlesse conceit refuted already and for that he bringeth in of Moses not being alive to bring the patterne from the Mount and of a new sterre to arise it bewrayeth his designe not onely to delay the government desired for a time but to debarre it for ever or to prepare the way for some seducing * See Bucol Ind. Chron p. 156. ad an 134. Schindl Pentag col 826. Benchocheba or Barchochebas as his name soundeth the sonne of a starre who pretending himselfe to be the starre of Iacob fore-prophecied Numb 24 17. tooke upon him to be a new guide unto the Iewes but misleading them to their ruine he was called Bencozba the sonne of a lie 2. For the other prudentiall rule his words are these There is no Religion established by State but there is some proportion in the two powers and some * § 10. p. 6. compliance betwixt the Civill and Ecclesiasticall state so as the establishing the one will draw with it some motions in the other and we all see saith he how hazardous it is to dis-ininteresse any in the Civill part even in Kingdomes that are more firme as France where the Protestants are partly allowed their Religion in pay for their civill engagements and so in other States and sure I am the State is most free where the conscience is least straitned where the tures and wheat grow together untill the harvest Answer Here he makes the Civill and Ecclesiasticall State so linked and neerely allied together that if there be motions in the one there will not be quietnesse in the other and that the Ecclesiastical State hath such an interest in the Civill that it is hazardous to the Civill part if it be not allowed and for that reason the Protestant Religion is tolerated in the Popish Kingdome of France which is as a pay or a recompence for their civill engagement In which passage as in divers others he aimes at the perpetuall prohibition of Government not at a temporall forbearance onely and he carrieth it on so as if we must allow him the authoritie of a prolitique Dictator without any proofe of Scripture reason yea or of any humane testimony for what he saith though in the way of a rationall ratification hath so little strength of reason in it that it reacheth not halfe way to the resolution of the Question in the Tenour of his Tenet For what if the Church and State be so symbolicall as to reciprocate interests and conditions betwixt themselves shall the Civill State leave every man or every Congregation to their owne libertie to be governed or ungoverned as they list every man in matters of Religion to doe that which is right in his owne eyes as when there was no King in Israel sudg 17.6 Nay rather because disturbances are communicated from the one to the other the Civill State

2. If he have well prepared his heart for that holy Communion he hath so much charitie as not to take offence at the scrupled conscience of his Minister at least not to desire that he should act any thing against it because of the counsell and determination of the Apostle Whatsoever is not of faith is sinne Rom. 14.23 so much humilitie as to take the repulse in a doubtfull case with meeknesse and patience so much faith as to beleeve that though his innocence for the present be under a cloud the Lord will bring forth his righteousnesse as light and his indgement as the noone day Psal 37.6 Object If it be said the Minister may pretend conscience when it is perhaps some secret grudge which tempts him to put upon his Parishioner an open disgrace Answ 1. I hope we shall have such Ministers so well knowne by their faithfulnesse in preaching and conscionablenesse in walking that there will be no ground for such a suspition at such a time 2. Though the consciousnesse of mine owne innocent intentions might dispose me for mine owne particular to accept of any penaltie that a civill Sanction can impose or that the arbitrary revenge of the repulsed partie would inflict if I were convinced to have kept any from the Sacrament out of spight or a perverse spirit or inconsiderate rashnesse without a cause which may be allowed to be just before a competent Iudge yet I hope that all who have authoritie to determine any thing upon such miscarriage of the Minister will thinke it sufficient and answerable to exact justice that he who shall abuse his power or transgresse his dutie in such a case be dealt withall lege talionis that is that the Classis for his undue suspension suspend him from the Sacrament which will bring so much more reproach and shame upon him then he brought upon the party refused as the more prudence pietie and charitie was required in him and the more notice is taken of him when he prevaricates in his office and function and is punished for it in such an open and eminent manner Object But to leave it in the power of the Minister without an expresse and particular rule to receive or reject whom he pleaseth is to put into his hands an unlimited arbitrary power which on all hands in all sorts of men is disliked and disclaimed Answ 1. It is not to be left to the Minister alone but to the Presbyterie 2. Though he act alone in the administration it selfe he is not to be thought to act by an arbitrary power when according to his duty following the rule and his present light he endevoureth to put difference betwixt the holy and profane betwixt the uncleane and the cleane ●zek 22.26 and to preserve the holy Sacrament from contempt that by a confusion of holy and unholy communicants the Brownists others who act according to their principles may not be hardened in their separation from our sacred Assemblies And in such a case for any private man to obtrude himselfe upon the Minister is to act an arbitrary power upon him yea an arbitrary tyranny if he should be authorised so to doe and should it be so out we have so much experience of the piety prudence and indulgence of the most Honourable Houses that we can never suspect any such pressure to proceed from them we can readily resolve to act or to forbeare what according to the Dictate of our consciences we conceive to be enjoyned or prohibited by our great Master and to beare and suffer what shall be imposed on us by our Superiours under him to whom we professe our obedience is due being but private persons either actively or passively in whatsover they shall determine concerning our persons liberties and estates 2. For that he saith of severe lawes and punishments to be constituted and good Magistrates chosen to see them actually executed we confesse if that could be generally and perpetually expected or but for the most part there were great hope of much helpe by such meanes against both the scandalous sinnes contained in the Catalogue and others of like kind but so long as Magistrates are men of no purer mould or metall then Ministers are and they passe not through so severe an examination before they be admitted to their offices as Ministers doe nor have so many obligations laid upon them for sinceritie and integritie as are laid upon Ministers nor so many eyes upon them to observe their aberrations from a right rule as Ministers have nor are like to have so many mouthes open to reprove or reproach them for or so many hands to restraine them from misdoing or to punish them for it as most Ministers in regard of their poverty and impotencie for the most part may expect which the Magistrates their superiours in estate and authoritie need not so much to feare there is no reason I conceive to take all power of censure from the Presbyterie for the Ministers sake for the Elders are not denied to be capable of jurisdiction as they are members of the Civil State and to put all upon the power and vigilant and conscionable execution of the Magistrate And I doubt not but we may confidently averre and the experience of precedent and subsequent times will make it good that it is so farre from being superfluous that there be a concurrence of the Civill and Presbyteriall power for suppression of sinne that when both are imployed and improved with all prudence diligence and conscience to suppresse the corruption of nature and to prevent the spreading and prevailing of scandalous sins and when the severe and strict discipline of private Families and of common Schooles is added unto them there will be no cause for all that to suspect any pleonasme either of piety or civilitie among the people of the Kingdome SECT XV. Of Mr. Colemans Interimisticall Magistracie NOr would that way which Mr. Coleman in his late and yet perhaps too soon put forth Re-examination of the Examination of his Sermon remembreth be so sufficient of it selfe A Brotherly examination reexamined p. 1● as that if it had prevailed there would have been no need of a Presbytery to supply the defect thereof as he delivereth it it is this At the extirpation of the Prelacie the Honourable Parliament would have established Commissioners in all Counties as an Interimisticall Magistracie c. And this he seemeth to conceive a better way of Church Government then that of the Presbyterie so much better that if that had beene set up this would have beene superfluous But in this historicall passage of his there be many particulars which may come under correction for first he saith the Parliament would have established Commissioners in all Counties as an Interimisticall Magistracie And would the Parliament have done it why did they not doe it was any power greater then the Parliaments any prudence more prevalent then theirs Secondly Some saith he and who they were is

reason and makes as much against the former Protestations of the Parliament and the late Covenant of three Kingdomes yea against all assurances of either kind as against the Government in question for there will be alwayes some that will be scrupled with any thing that is publiquely established Obiect But saith he * § 1. p. 3. The people are generally unt aught in the nature and grounds of this Church Government and therefore to put upon them the practice of that whereof it is impossible they can be fully perswaded in their minds is to put them upon a necessitie either of sinne or of misery To which The Answer is so easie and ready that it may be some matter of marvaile an ingenious man as Mr. Saltmarsh is should make such an Objection for 1. The Church Government desired is no other then for the chiefe parts of it hath good warrant from the word of God 2. For what is of lesse moment if it be not directly deduced out of Scripture it is not repugnant to the Scripture but agreeable to grounds of prudence and the example of the best reformed Churches 3. For the practice of Government it belongeth not to the peoples part as he puts the case to be active in it but to the Ministers and Elders and they are not to enter upon the exercise of their authoritie before they be sufficiently informed in it and thence it is that though there be an Order given for it they that should officiate in it make a pause and deliberate upon it before they set upon the practise of it 4. For the people so farre as concerneth their compliance or correspondence with the government they are to be instructed in it before they yeeld submission to it for that purpose the Government is proposed by parts and by degrees so as it may be best apprehended by all and the Preachers appointed to teach both the offices of the Gevernours and the duties of the people so as each may performe his part without scruple or doubting 5. If any after this information out of weaknesse remaine unsatisfied be is not as this Writer resolveth put upon such a dangerous Dilemma as either to make choyce of sin by obeying or of misery by refusall to obey for such as not out of wilfulnesse or faction but out of tendernesse of conscience cannot comply with the rule are not presently to be ruled with the rod 1 Cor. 4.21 but with meeknesse to be instructed though they be contrary minded 2 Ti●i 2.25 and with so much longsuffering and patience to be forborne as may not be injurious to the truth of God and prejudiciall to the peace of the Church 6. Whereas he would have the generall ignorance of the people touching government a roason to suspend the setting of it up it may rather be pleaded for expedition in the worke for if it be not set up the people cannot know it practically and while it is unknowne unto them it is impudently slandered by some and impotently yeelded by many others to be injurious and tyrannicall whereas if it had beene experimentally knowne as it is it would have beene before now both honourable and amiable in the eies of them who are not prepossessed with prejudice against it 7. For those two Texts which he alleadgeth for deferring the Government and if there be any weight in them as to that purpose they make against it not for a time onely but for ever I commend to his consideration and wish he would preach and presse to his people when the government is set up as I hope it shortly will be or rather before-hand to prepare them for it such Scriptures as these We beseech you brethren to know them which labor among you and are over you in the Lord and admonish you and to esteeme them very highly in lo●e for their works sake 1 Thes 5.12 13. Let the Elders that rule well be accounted worthy of double honour especially they who labour in the word and doctrine 1 Tim. 5.17 Remember them which have the rule over you who have spoken to you the word of God Heb. 13.7 vers 17. Obey them that have the rule over you and submit your selves for they watch for your soules as they that must give account that they may doe it with i●y and not with griefe Thus much for his first Paragraph which may deserve the first place and a fuller answer then any of the rest because it brings more appearance of proofe both by Scripture and reason then any of the other SECT IIII. Reasons against the present setling of Government taken from Conscience answered THe next reason for adjourning or putting off the Government to a further time is taken from Conscience and that in two respects 1. In that the conscience hereby that is by a speedy setting up of government is mis-guided to a compliance with a * § 2. p. 3. Principle of Popery against the Nationall Covenant Answ It is very strange that any one who remembreth the Nationall Covenant as he taketh upon him to doe that citeth it wherein we are bound sincerely really and constantly to endevour the reformation of Religion in the Kingdomes of England and Ireland in Discipline and Government in the first Article of it should from the same Covenant plead for delay in the establishment thereof and yet more strange that he should doe it under the title of Popery which in the next Article of the Covenant is disavowed which if his reasoning were right were such a contradiction as would argue the composers and penners of the Covenant to be men of most pitifull simplicitie But wherein appeareth this Popery Why in * § 2. p. 3. bringing the people under a Popish implicit obedience and he confirmes it by experience * § 2. ibid. We know it by e●eperience saith he that the people have beene ever devoted to any thing that the State sets up all the disputes or conscience of the common people ending in this Whether it be established by Law or no and going usually no higher or further then a Statute or Act of State for their Religion To which I answer 1. For that he saith of implicit Popish obedience it is very impertinently applied to the Discipline or Government in question since as I have shewed in what I said to his first reason it is so ordered already that therein instruction must preced or goe before observation nor shall any one be bound to act in that particular any further then according to his light 2. For his observation upon experience it maketh as much against matter of Doctrine as mattes of Discipline and more against the Authority of the Parliament then the authority of Ministers since They not Ministers make Statutes and establish Lawes and if the people be so apt to idolize a Statute or an Act of State but I beleeve they more often offend in defect then in exeesse of respect unto them it will be