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Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
authority_n	believe_v	church_n	tell_v	2,230	5	6.0616	4	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A41335	Weighty questions discussed I. Whether imposition of hands in separating a person to the work of the ministry be necessry?, II. Whether it be essential to the right constitution of a particular church, that the teaching elders and the members meet alwayes in one place? : whereunto is added a prediction of Mr. Daniel Rogers, minister in Essex, long before the beheading King Charles I and Arch-Bishop Laud, foretelling that they should not dye a natural death / by Giles Firmin ...	Firmin, Giles, 1614-1697.; D. R. (Daniel Rogers), 1573-1652.	1692 (1692)	Wing F969; ESTC R31512	41,078	37

Hands It lyes upon you to shew where that Precept or President is I know no such Texts you acted did you act in Faith that you acted according to God and were well-pleasing to God in your ordaining without Imposition of Hands Then shew us that Divine Testimony upon which your Faith for so acting is grounded You never gave me one as yet and if you cannot do it your Faith in this Act is but vain If there be any thing I do in the House of God for which I cannot give either Precept President necessary Consequence from Scripture or light of Nature I will lay by that Act I will not trouble the Peace of the Church nor hinder Union with my Brethren by keeping up such Practices Thirdly The Apostles did not constitute Churches as you do with one single Pastor c. In Nine Churches we find several Teachers but not one with a single Teacher In a Young Church at Antioch Act. 13.2 3. There were three Teachers to separate Paul and Barnabas There is an Errour then in your Constitution and that does not justifie your Error in Ordination Fourthly Give me a President where the Pastor of one Church did so much as preach or pray in another Church if you cannot then we must not so much as preach or pray in another Church But you have called me and others to preach in your Church To this you answered me You could well do that from Matth. 28.19 go teach all Nations if so then in other Churches Answ First Set by Presidents then it seems you can find none Secondly I may deny your Co●seq●ence at ●●ast according to some Independent Principles unless I preach as a gifted Brother To preach to the Nations who were Heathens and to preach in an Independ●nt Church differ I may preach to Heathen as a Minister of Christ but in an Independent Church as a gi●ted Brother I wish we knew the first Author of this Distinction that we might scratch his Cranium for so witty an Invention What your judgment is as to this distinction Lib. 2. p. 101. I cannot tell But I am of Dr. Owens mind If I did not think my self bo●nd saith he to Preach as a Minister and as a Minister Authorized in all places and on all occasions whe● I am called thereunto I think I should never preach much more in this world Fisthly If that Text will warrant me to preach in another Church it will warrant me to Baptize in another Church if there be need and I am called to it They are joined together and if I may put forth two Acts of Authority I may also put forth a third If there wants a Pastor and I am called to join with others to separate him to his Office we will do it according to the Word with Fasting Prayer and Imposition of Hands without which 't is not Ordination We do not give him the Deficition Sixthly Since then we are come to consequence from Scripture I gave you a Scripture 1 Cor. 12.12 The Body is one and hath many Members c. He does not mean that particular Church of Corinth is that one Body he adds so is Christ v. 13. Jews and Gentiles make up that one Body v. 25. The Members of this one Body must have the same care one of another Does the Apostle tye up his Discourse to the Church of Corinth that the Members of that Church should have care one of another and if one of their Members did ●●●●er v. 26. all the rest of the Members of Corinth suffer with them but for other Churches take no care of them If they suffer you need not suffer with them Certainly this was not the Apostles meaning I look upon all particular Churches to be Members of that one Body It is such a Church in which Christ hath set Apostles Prophets c. v. 28. It is such a Church where some are as Eyes others as Ears some as Feet some as Hands verses 15 16. Therefore he speaks of the Visible Church If every particular Church were the Body of Christ how many Bodies should Christ have But he hath but one Body as the 12th verse and Ephes 4.4 12. tell us Since th●n all particular Churches are but Members of that one Body and the Lord hath commanded the Members to have care one of another Surely the Lord hath not confined the Ministerial Power of a Pastor to his own particular Church so that if a Neighbour-Church have no Pastor that the Pastors near to this Church may not help that Church to a Pastor and in that way which his Word hath declared Your Practice testifieth it for you would make the Person to be ordained and others believe you ordain in another Church and this is an Act of Authority but not as you perform it nor according to God's Word and so it is no Ordination There is a difference between a Ministers helping another Church destitute of an Officer in seeding them with the Word and Sacraments a joyning with others in the Ordination of a Pastor to them and exercising Discipline in that Church in case of Scandal The Church hath some Power to help it self in this Case tho no Pastor For instance a Pastor of a Church not far from us in the time of Persecution leaves England goes beyond-Sea many miles this Church had none to seed them they desired help of their Neighbour Ministers who accordingly did afford them help some preached some baptized their Infants and others Administred the Lord's Supper to them One of the Church fell very foully being seduced by another Professor the Scandal very great so that the Hearts of good People very sad but our Enemies rejoyced it made such a noise in the Country many miles about us that the like I believe have not been known in these Parts I was desired to preach there when I had done my Sermon a Writing was delivered to me wherein the Church desired me to declare to the Congregation which was then very great being no Sermon in the publick place their ab●orrency of such Acts and withal desired me to inform them what was their Duty what they ought to do in such a Case as this I gave them my thoughts thus You are but a Homogeneal Body and so have no power to Excommunicate that being an Act of Authority nor have I any power to call the person to an account and excommunicate But yet this you may do since the person was admitted into Church-Fellowship and Communion with your consent she having fallen so foully dishonoured God so greatly and opened the mouths of Men against Godliness you should first meet together and humble your Souls before God that there should be such Dishonour brought to his Name by one of your Church Then First You have the Lord's Supper Administred sometimes amongst you there you may deny Communion with her Secondly You have times when your Church only meet together for Prayer mutual Conference c. You

them to Ordain without Imposition of Hands One of them undertook it a Person whose Gifts and Graces I honour For Scriptures he gave me none Whether his Reasons be Cogent the sequel shall declare That Diminishing from the Word is as great a Sin as Addition to the Word none can deny the Text is expresly against them both Deut. 12.32 and ch 4.2 both offer an Affront to the Wisdom of the ●aw-giver Addition charges him with Defect Diminishing charges him with superfluity appointing things needless and vain Grant it that Imposition of Hands in Ordination be but a Ceremony yet it is God's Ceremony appointed first by his express Command Numb 8.10 14. Not to conferr Gifts as some would have it but to Separate to Office If you then could deny Communion with the Church of England because of their Addition of Humane Doctrinal Ceremonies to the Worship of God I doubt not but this was one Cause among others may we not then question our Communion with you in your Administring of the Holy things for throwing out God's Ceremony It is one thing to hold Communion with a Person as a Christian which I can do with all my Soul another thing to hold Communion with the same Person as a Minister dispensing the Holy things of God For when as in Separation to Office God's Ceremony expressed in five or six Scriptures is left out have you not given us just Cause setting by the Authority of God in those Scriptures to question the lawfulness of your Ministry O why do our Brethren lay such Blocks in our way to hinder that which the Lord hath so Commanded and we so earnestly desire and seek after Unity I have spoken with some Ordained thus and they told me they would have been Ordained with Imposition of Hands and expected it but they who did it refused it the more trouble have they made in the Church They who come into the Gospel-Ministry must come in according to Gospel-Order God stands upon his Order 1 Chron. 15.13 God made a Breach upon us for that we sought him not after Due Order How severe was the Holy Law-giver then but there was not Due Order nor is here Due Ordination God is the same God still the God of Order as well as then The Scriptures are plain in this Point why are not we as plain what need have we of other words them what we find in the Scriptures If Imposition of Hands were but an indifferent thing or but a circumstance of the Action I could Answer my self But it will appear to be that in which Separation to Office is principally made and in which only it is seen That godly and learned Men may err as well by Diminishing from the Word as such have done in Adding to the Word I know nothing against it they are but Men But these Men who as I judge diminish from the Word would not therefore Vnite and hold Communion with them in Worship where these Additions were because they were godly and learned Men. We have our Rule to look to not Men further than they walk according to that Rule If the Reader meet with the Word Independent I desire him not to be offended for this Discourse between my Brother and my self was before the Agreement of the Vnited Brethren came forth yet the word may be used sano sensu well enough For I doubt not a particular Church duely ●●ganized walking regularly may Execute all the Power of the Keys within it self without dependency upon any other Churches As to the End of my publishing this Treatise my Conscience bears me Witness before the Lord I aim but at these two things 1. To remove that Block if I could which hinders our hearty Union I know it offends many of our Brethren besides it gives advantage to them who observe our Practices to speak against us and that justly 2. To keep up the Authority of the Scriptures which are so plain in this Case that if we will own Ordination without Imposition of Hands to be Due Ordination then the Authority of five or six Scriptures is set by I know no other ground of our Sufferings but our maintaining of the Authority of the Scriptures while Men would be Imposing upon us such things in the House and Worship of God which if the Questions were truly stated which they never did have no footing or ground in the Holy Scriptures but were their Addition to them as if the Wisdom of God in the Scriptures were defective If we suffered then for the Authority of the Scriptures while Men added to them we will not give away their Authority now while men diminish from them Where shall we End if this be the Practice As to the Second Question I seek Light 1. To have but one Pastor or Teaching Elder in a Church agrees neither with the Holy Scripture nor sound Reason Good Mr. Faldo was troubled about it I understand by his Letter to me 2. The Poverty of the Churches generally is such that very few can maintain One then not more 3. Complaints have been made by some Members of Churches that their Pastors have not proceeded rightly against them and they had no help 4. If then the Holy Scriptures have not declared that the Officers and Members of a Church must meet alwayes in One Place then all Church-work may be carried on which as now we stand cannot be I begg of the Father of Lights to Guide Vs The Unworthiest of the United Brethren GILES FIRMIN The Prediction of Mr. Daniel Rogers Minister in Wethersfield in Essex concerning King Charles the first and Arch-Bishop Laud. IF you ask me who this Mr. Daniel Rogers was he was the Son of Mr. Richard Rogers a Man eminent in Holiness whom God honoured to make him his Instrument in bringing home many Souls to Christ If you ask what he was for Grace himself His Brother Mr. Nathanael Ward use to say of him My Brother Rogers hath Grace enough for two men but not half enough for himself His Natural Constitution was no Advantage to Grace If you ask what he was for a Divine his Works Answer for him If you ask what he was for a Scholar two things declared him to be a Scholar one was this When Arch-Bishop Land Visited Mr. Rogers was Summoned to appear and did so whether Mr. Rogers did grapple with the Arch-Bishop I cannot tell but one that lived in the Town where I now do being then present at the Court heard the Arch-Bishop say to him Mr. Rogers I acknowledge you to be a better Scholar than my self but I will make you know your place And silenced him A second thing was this which I had from a Kinsman of mine who was of Clare-Hall at the same time if not the same Year with Mr. Rogers the Man was a very moderate Episcopal Man he told me this The Arch-Bishop sends down a Coryphaus this was the Word he used to the University of Cambridge to Challenge the

may there deny her Communion also but when you meet publickly with others there you should not deny but she may be present at Prayer being it is natural Worship tho she were actually excommunicated and rendred as a Heathen I have seen the Indians present with us at Prayer and Preaching tho' as yet they had not embraced Christianity Thirdly As for the Civil Familiarity you had with her before you ought to suspend that too 2 Thess 3.14 and verse 6. yet having a care of her being in a poor condition that she do not perish Fourthly You may choose three or sour of your chief Members and send them to her to make her know the Determination of the Church and that the Church doth this in the Name of the Lord Jesus The Church did so the effects of it was the clamours of the People ceased the Mouths of them who before were opened against us were silent and now they rather sound sault with me that I was too sharp upon the Person offending the effect was a relenting and humbling of her self before God in the publick Congregation to the satisfaction of the Church she is now dead but the Church having then their Pastor absolved her before she died and it was a comfort to her her Absolntion was without money By this I see were this Ordinance of Church Discipline carried on according to the word of God which hath been so fearfully abused we should need no Writ de Excommunicato capiendo I did but add a sew words what the case of such a person was under this Sentence and it struck an awe in the hearts of Carnal People To return to my Brother To what I have said from the one body in the Corinth 12. That the Pastors of Churches may help other Churches where there are none and they call to help them you answer me This is all you have to say and there is little in it Answ No not all Brother I gave you your own Text whereby you proved that Pastors of other Churches may joyn with you in days of Fasting and Prayer and preaching and if so then in Ordaining 2dly I gave you the Texts of Scripture whereby the Synod of N. England proved they might ordain in another Church with Imposition of hands You tell me you deny a Political-visible Catholick Church Answ So do I. If I said but little I am sure you say too much How doth it follow Because we may help neighbour Churches when they call us to help them with Pastors in a Gospel way Therefore I must own a Political visible Catholick Church I gave you instance before how Churches may help to purge themselves from seandalous persons tho they have no Officers If there be a Family by us where are several Children Parents both dead and there is none that takes care of them to help them to food It is one thing for me to go to the House and help them with food another thing to cast one of the Children out of the House if it be cross refractory and will not be reclaimed by counsel Thecase is the same here twenty or forty Elders may meet to give Counsel in a Case leaving the Execution to the Church whence the Case depends You tell me Ministers are not set over the whole Church their Power may be refused in other Congregations Answ But they do not refuse their Power when they Call for it and desire to help them in their want I limit the Power of Elders to other Churches to the Call of those Churches being in want They are not therefore set over the whole Church When you with the two other Ministers they go for such did separate that illiterate Person to the Work of the Ministry did you Act as Officers or as private Brethren If you acted as private Brethren then I am sure he is no Minister the Brethren of the same Society had more right than you If you acted as Officers then it seems you could not put forth Official Power in another Church To separate to an Office is an Act of Authority Whom we may appaint not the People Act. 6.3 You tell me the 13 Acts 3. is no Platform for us unless we have an immediate Command from God to Ordain Men. Answ The immediate Command was in the separating Paul and Barnabas to the Work of their Apostleship The Command was not to Teach them how they should separate the Lord saith only Separate c. they knew how they should separate before The Synod of New-England and Dr. Owen were much mistaken who quote this Text for Ordination by Impostion of Hands But to this Text I have spoken before As to what you say That Gifts were then Conserred with the Imposition of Hands Answ The end when the Lord first Commanded it was not to Conferr Gi●ts but to separate Numb 8.10 14. so Acts 13.3 Separate we Paul c. 2. The Savoy Consession is against you if there be Elders in the same Church it calls for Imposition of Hands 3. Paul and Barnabas were Gifted before as I named the Texts 4. The Deacons were Gifted before their Ordination Acts 6.3 5. Paul then needed not to have given that Caution to Timothy 2 Tim. 2.2 that they be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to whom he Committed the Gospel-Doctrine for Timothy by the Imposing Hands might Conferr Gifts and make them able or fit Men for the Work 6. As to what you gather from 1 Tim. 4.14 for your Proof that Text you know admits of Controversie As whether Timothy was not first Ordained a Presbyter and asterwards an Evangelist Whether Paul's Imposition and the Presbyters were both at the same time c. but this is certain laying the 1 Tim. 1.18 and 2 Tim. 1.6 together with this Text there was something extraordinary as to Timothy's Gifts in which the Pres●●teries Imposition had no share the Propositions differ it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by the putting on of my Hands See Didoclavius Altare Damos p. 161. Thus Gillospy Misc p. 101. but 't is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 with the la●ine o● of the Hands of to● Presbitery after Prophecy So that when Paul and the Presbytery did both impose Hands the Gift was conveyed as Paul saith by my Hands But as to ●●s Office to a Potestative Authoritative Mission the Imposition of the Hands of the Presbytery did conc●rr with Pa●●'s You tell me I must own Succission and those polluted Hands c. Answ Your Argument speaks thus If you will have no Ordination without Imposition of Hands according to Scripture then you must own Succession So I will Was Imposition of Hands in Ordination an Invention of Rome or an Institution of God the Papists can prove their Act in this Point by Scripture so cannot you 2. Mr. Robinson Mr. Johnson tho' rigid old Separates yet worthy Men made light of this Argument because it was God's own Appoinement 3. You had best throw away Baptism because their polluted Hands do

administer it 4. This concerns the first Reformers We receive our Ordination from godly and learned men who hate and have cast off whatever is Romish but not the Holy S●ripture because they pass through Rome to us As to the Text you quote Phil 3.16 When eunto we have already attained c. this is nothing to our Case nor will it heal Several there were who did believe in Christ and embraced the Gospel but were not so clear in the total Abolition of the Ceremonial ●aw as Rom. 14. shews But however since they had believed in Christ and embraced the Gospel walk according to that Rule unto which you have attained God will reveal more in time The Case is nothing like You have attained to Fasting and Prayer in Ordination but not to Imposition of Hands But Fasting and Prayer we use and may use in twenty Cases but these Cases do not make twenty distinct Ordinances though we Fast and Pray It is but one Ordinance But Separation to the Work of the Ministry is a distinct Ordinance Secondly They were to walk by the same Rule But by what Rule do you walk for the Rule is with I●position of Hands according to which you do not walk SECT IV. AFter I had done with this Brother there came to my Hand a little Book put out by another Brother who writes thus All Church-Officers are made by Ordination and Ordained alike is there no difference between Acts 6.6 and Acts 3.3 and that Ordination is not Imposition of Hands and if the most be made of it it 's but a Ceremony annexed which is now obsolete It 's But a Ceremony Whose Ceremony is it Did Man or God Institute it If it be God's methinks it is not com●●y for a Creature to cast a slighting But upon any of his Institutions What was the whole Ceremonial Law yea What is Water in Baptism Bread and Wine in the Lords Supper setting by the Authority of him who did Institute them the Image of a King stamped upon a Farthing tho' but a Farthing who dare refuse it Though it be but a Ceremony yet being God's Institution and Command there is 1. Necessitas Praecepti anne●●ed to it and it is Disobedience to his Institution to Omit it The Spirit is pleased three times to set forth the whole Work of Ordination by this Ceremony as you call it alone 2. There is ●●c●ssitas Medii in this sense viz To the sending forth of a Person to Preach and Administer all Ordinances in God's House with Authority Dr. Owen rightly calls it The Symbol of Auth●itati●● O●●i●nation Our Bre●●hren of Scotland call it a Medi●m of Co●●●nicating Auth●●ity to the Person Or●●ained When the Presbytery Praying and Imposing Hands do in the Name of the Lord Jesus the King of his Church Separate a Man to the Work of the Ministry the Act carries Authority in it By the Imposing their Hands they do Impose the Charge the Burden the Work of the Ministry upon the Person in the Name of the Lord. Persons in Authority do in the Name of the Lord Convey Authority The Apostle bids Timothy 2 Tim 2.2 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Com●●● the things c. the Persons must be first 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 fit to Teach other 〈◊〉 Men before he Commits them this is plain But then how doth Terothy Commit the thines to them when he finds them such 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈…〉 Commendatur depositum ●●●andum suo tempor● red●e●●●●● Ear●●us So the Sitia●k D●●suit in sidem alle●jus That it is an Act of Authority Luk. 12.48 is plain Timothy does not Commit them by Election that is the Act of the People you tell us he could not do it by Conserring Gifts he had no such Power Besides he must see they be such before he Commits them He did not do it by Prayer for them any might have so Committed as well as T●mothy and Prayer is no Act of Authority but when T●●●●●y Prays and Im●●ses Hands to separate them to the Work of the Ministry which Pa●● charged him not to do it s●ddenly 1 Tim. 5.22 Now he Commits them Now Separation to the Work is seen and not before So that when the Presbytery do 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 they do 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 After I had done I met with Mr. Gillesp●●s upon the Text Mis●tl p. 52. which he saith is a considerable Text against the So●inians and Anabaptists What work these Gifted Brethren have made in Churches we see to our shame which this Practice of our Brethren and crying up Oisted Brethrens Preaching have not a little strengthned to the bringing in of Consusion and Disorder into the Church as we see at this day to the shame of Reformation and he gives the sence of the Text as I have done for Ordination which in another place he saith must be with Imposition of Hands As to his saying that it is a Coremony now Obso●ete I thought the Word Obtolete did connote a thing out of Date out of Use worn thred-bare but Imposition of Hands in Ordination hath been used in the Jewish Church and the Christian Church in all Ages to this day among all Churches so that if it be obsolete it must be only among some few Independents of yesterdays standing and is this sufficient to make it obsolete One Word about Popular Election because I see it is that which gives the Essence to a Minister in some Mens Opinion I am for the Peoples Election provided it be regularly carryed on but that it makes a Minister I cannot yield to that Mr. Eliot and those I mention'd before Preach to the Indians God works with their Ministry brings some to the Faith in Christ they are formed into a Church they choose Mr. Eliot * Suppose it had been so to be their Minister so then their Election makes Mr. Eliot a Minister is not this pretty Logick the Effect give the Essence to the Cause If the People be visible Saints they are ordinarily the Effect of the Ministry tho' not of that particular Minister whom they choose it may be as Ministers are said to be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Workers together with God 1 Cor. 3.6 2 Cor. 6.1 Instruments in his Hand 2. If the Election of a Deacon do not give the Essence to a Deacon then the Election of a Minister doe not give the Essence to a Minister but the Antecedent is true Ergo. Unto all Church-Officers Election gives the Essence as they say and no wonder if the People be the first Subject of the Power of the Keys as it is in these Mens Opinion then if it doth not give the Essence to a Deacon then not to another Officer nay much less to a Minister for the People may be more able to judge of an Officer to serve Tables than they are able to judge of the Abilities and Soundness of a Man to be chosen a Minister But it did