Selected quad for the lemma: authority_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
authority_n	believe_v	church_n	father_n	2,359	5	5.4153	4	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A54912	Occasionall discourses 1. Of worship and prayer to angells and saints. 2. Of purgatorie. 3. Of the Popes supremacie. 4. Of the succession of the Church. Had with Doctor Cosens, by word of mouth, or by writing from him. By Thomas Carre confessour of the English nunnerie at Paris. As also, An answer to a libell written by the said Doctor Cosens against the great Generall councell of Lateran under Innocentius the third, in the yeere of our Lord 1215. By Thomas Vane Doctor in Diuinity of Cambridge.	Carre, Thomas, 1599-1674.; Vane, Thomas, fl. 1652. Answer to a libell written by D. Cosens against the great Generall councell of Laterane under Pope Innocent the Third. aut	1646 (1646)	Wing P2272; ESTC R220529	96,496	286

for them either in the Sacrifices of the Altar or of praier or almes-deedes Though yet they profit not euerie one they are made for but those alone who obtaine in their life time that they may profit them De Haeresibus haer 53. The Aerians tooke their names for à certaine Aerius who being Priest was said to be troubled he could not be made Bishop and falling into the Arrians heresie added some of his owne tenets affirming that it was not lawfull to pray or offer Sacrifice for the Dead De cura pro mortuis c. 1. In the bookes of the Machabees we reade that a sacrifice was offered for the dead Howbeit though it were not at all read in the ancient Scriptures the authoritie of the vniuersall Church which is euident in point of this custome is uo small matter where the commendation of the dead hath its proper place in the prayers of the priest which are powred out to God at his Altar Here you will marke two things The first is that saint Augustine esteemed the Machabees to be Scripture since he argues for Purgatorie from it and indeed he confirmes the same both in his seconde booke of Christian Doctrine the eight Chapter and also in his 18. booke of the Cittie of God 36. Chap. in these words The bookes to witt two of the Machabees are held to be Canonicall not by the Iewes but by the Church The seconde that though there were no scripture for it yet ought the authoritie of the vniuersall Church to preuayle at it doth in many other things of greater cō sesequence Witnesse the said Saint in diuers passages which both the Catholike and Protestant doe admitt of For first Epist fundamen moued by the authoritie of the Church we beleeue the Gospell it selfe which without it we should not beleeue I would not saith he beleeue the Gospell vnlesse the authoritie of the Catholike Church did moue me to it Secondly we beleeue many things which are not in the Scripture as that the sonne is consubstantiall with the Father It is not found written in holy writt saith he and yet that it is said is defended in the assertion of faith That the Father is vnbegotten We read not in those bookes the scriptures that the Father is vnbegotten Epist 174. and yet we make good that we ought to say so in the same place That the Holy Ghost is to be adored Giue me say you he meanes Maximinus an Arrian some testimonies where the Holy Ghost is adored as though forsooth replyes saint Augustine out of these things which we reade we vnderstoode not also some things which we reade not That it was written when the Apostle saint Paul was baptised no mention being made of the rest of the Apostles It is written when the Apostle saint Paul was baptised and it is not written when the rest of the Apostles were baptised and yet we must vnderstand that they also were baptised Finally that a child which cannot yet speake is said to beleeue and may be baptised Be it farre from me to affirme that children beleeue not c. he beleeues in another who offended in another It is answered dicitur he beleeues and it is of force and he is numbred among the faithfull baptised See what a necessitie is imposed vpon all Christians to haue some other infallible ground besides Scripture to stand vpon both to make good Scripture it selfe to witt that it is the true word of God that there are so many bookes of it and no more that we haue the true sense of it c. and many other maine grounds of Christianitie which you see we dare not denye while yet we can produce no formall scripture for them Now what ground that is let the same Saint Augustine deliuer Saint Cyprian faith he doth admonish vs that we should run backe to the fountaine that is to the Apostolicall Tradition and so bring downe the chanells to our tymes It is the best way l 5. cap 26. contra Donatistas and to be done without doubt And againe it is manifest that in a thing doubtfull the authoritie of the Catholike Church confirmed by the order of Bishops succeeding one another and the consent of people Ex libro cōtra Manichaos Dist 11.6 Palam from the verie foundation of the seas of the Apostles till this present tyme is of force to faith valet ad fidem And to know which is an Apostolicall Tradition which not De Bap. con Don. l. 4. c. 24. and l. 2. c 7. and Epist 118. c. 1. the same saint Augustine leaues vs another Rule thrice ouer for fayling What the VNIVERSALL CHVRCH holds and is not yet established in Councells but is alwayes obserued is most rightly beleeued to haue bene deliuered by no other then by Apostolicall authoritie Whence he concludes that it is a most insolent madnesse to dispute whether that ought to be done which the whole Church frequents all ouer the world But the whole Church all ouer the world in the yeare 1517. frequented as all our aduersaries confesse and condemne in vs an vnblouddy sacrifice prayer almes c. for the dead that they might be freed from their sinnes c. therfore it was following saint Augustins phrase and is a most insolent madnesse to deny it In conclusion either hath the proposition and practice of the VNIVERSALL CHVRCH auhoritie to conuince the beleife of a thing not otherwise written yea or no If not It were but meete that the simpler sorte should be instructed clearely and fairely vpon what infallible warranty they beleeue these ensuing points which they meete not with in their Bible 1. That Christians haue indeed the whole reuealed word of God 2. That it is contayned in so many bookes neither more nor fewer 3. That the Epistle to the Hebrewes is a part of it how euer it was some tymes doubted of 4. That there is a certaine number of Sacraments c. as aboue out of saint Augustine BVt if you graunt me that the vniversall Church hath such an infallible authoritie and that vpon it you depend for the certaintie of the precedent articles I may say with S. Augustine you obserue by this of what importance the authoritie of the Cathol Church is but you must also answer me why Catholikes may not with equall confidence depend vpon the same authoritie in point of assurance of purgatorie I am not able to discouer a disparitie or apprehend how being held credible in the deliuerie of those she should not also be credible in this since both are equally proposed both relye vpon the same veracitie or credit Be pleased to ponder this part well and afford the world a cleare and satisfactorie answer The grounds of Christianitie seeme to me to be shaken if the Churches veracitie herein beviolated and great pittie it were that the animositie to make good our priuate opinions should betray Gods knowen truthes An erring Disputant saith saint Augustine is

but rather repugnant to the word of God In fine S. Damascene Deliuers it for an vndoubted custome in the Catholike and Apostolike Church to make memorie of the Dead in the vndloudie Sacrifice But the Prot. Church of England will haue it to be a fond thing vainely inuented and the Sacrifice of the Masse ablasphemous fable a dāgerous deceipt rather repugnant to the word of God See what a goodly accord there is betweene the ancient Greeke Fathers and our new Reformers or rather behold their apparently iarring and irreconcileable discord which the smoothest witt is not able euen speciously to appease or to tune it vp to any their least aduantage Their stale and cold replies drawen from the diuersitie which they pretend to be amongst Catholikes themselues vpon this subiect gaine no credit nor are of any moment with rationall men As That they agree not about the place where Purgatorie should be Nor about the Tormentors whether Angels or Deuills Nor about the torments whether by fire or water or neither Nor about the causes of the torments of Purgatorie whether veniall sinnes onely or mortall sinnes also for which full satisfaction hath not bene made in this life Nor about the tyme which the soules tormented may remayne in Purgatorie c. Nor about their state c. For all these things swarue from the purpose as not coming home to the state of the question betwixt vs and the English Protestants which is Whether there be a Purgatorie not where the place of Purgatorie is who are the Tormenters what torments there be whether pure and true fire or some other thing equiualent c. of all which we pronounce with S. Basile Superuacua in Ecclesia sileant Let not superfluous and vnnecessarie questions be heard of in the Church especially so farre as to confound matter of Faith with matter of opinion Now these things touching the place of Purgatorie c. passe among Catholikes for matters of opinion not of Faith and are with amitie humilitie and submission disputed in our schooles but haue not yet bene defined in our Councells whence the beleife or not beleife of them are of free choyce amongst vs we being neither made of the number of the faithfull by that nor miscreants by this We are not of those presumptuous soules who thinke to haue accesse to all the diuine secrets while we know by Saint Paul that we are none of his Counsellours We are willingly persuaded by S. Basile to prayse what we haue receiued vpon the accompt of faith and what hath bene deliuered ouer in trust to vs but doe not curiously sound hidden mysteries We finally receiue of the Catholique Romane Church that there is A Purgatorie and of that we dare not doubt but where and what it is c. she hauing of that deliuered no Decree in all humilitie we dispute nor doe our doubts therin violate touch or call in question the beleife of Purgatorie that stands still vndoubted and inuiolable Since therefore all the Easterne Bishops and Fathers as we haue seene deliuer the same doctrine with one heart one mouth one faith touching purging fire c. Prayer Almes Sacrifice for the dead c. wherby great rest is procured to their soules may not I iustly admire to heare one man stand vp and affirme the cōtrarie and that with so much confidence as that he feared not to passe his word to yeald himselfe à Catholike vpon the proof of it Contra Iulianum l. 2. s. 2. and may I not with iust offence speake to him in S. Aug. words saying To what purpose doc these your words serue but to make euident to the world either how negligent you haue bene to acquaint your selfe with the words and sence of Catholike Doctors in this behalfe or hauing vsed diligence to know them with what fraude you goe about to circumuent the ignorant c. Si nesciens hoc fecisti cur non miseram respuis imperitiam si sciens cur non sacrilegam deponis audaciam si cernis cerne tandem tace Pelagianam Lutheranam linguam tot linguis Catholicis deprime tot venerandis oribus proterua ora submitte Hitherto I haue insisted vpon the productions of the Greeke Fathers authoritie onely because the challenge called thither alone though I could haue vsed a more sure and satisfactorie way the Scriptures as they are vnderstood both by the Greeke and Latine Fathers together with the practice of the whole Church of God and haue said with S. Augustine Vbisupra I conceiue that part of the world ought to suffice you in which it pleased our Lord to crowne the first of his Apostles with a most glorious Martyrdome if you would haue giuen care to Blessed Innocentius presiding ouer that Church you had forthwith freed your perilous youth from the Pelagian Lutheran snares For what could that holy man haue answered to the African Councells Anglicanis conuicijs but what the Apostolicall and Romane sea holds with the rest of the Churches c. There is no reason therefore to prouoke to the Bishops of the East because they two are Christians and that faith of both the parts of the world is one and the same because faith it selfe is Christian and certes the Westerne part brought you out the westerne Church did regenerate you c. It rest that I make the great Saint Augustine alone speake for the practice of the Latine Church and himselfe because I perceiued by a paper which M● Cosens himselfe presented me with that he had vsed some endeauour to drawe him to his side or at least if he could preuayle no further to render his testimonie doubtfull to the end that he or others might build wood hay stubble or worse vpon that mistaken foundation which he doth most clearely in these ensuing passages S. AVGVSTIN CONF. lib. 9. cap. 12. The Sacrifice of our price is offered for her Sacrifice offered for her soule And. c. 13. booke the same Now I beseech thee heare me for the sinnes of my Mother He prayes for her sinnes Againe a little after She desired onlie that à Memorie should be made of her at thy Altar She desired to be remembred at the Altar at which she serued without intermitting any day where she knew the holie victime was dispensed wherby the hand-writing was blotted out which was contrarie to vs. To these passages some haue made answer that they doe admitt prayer for the Dead a Commemoration to be made for them at the Altar yea and Sacrifice to be offered also Howbeit not as we meane to deliuer them from their paines but for diuers other effects And that thereby we cannot enforce a Purgatorie nor did S. Augustine speake of purging fire Let the holy Father therefore answere for himselfe S. Augustine li. 2. c. 20. de Genesi against the Manichees After this life he shall haue either purging fire Purging fire or eternall punishment So farre are anie from escaping this sentence

animique male compositi malam sententiam res fingere verbáque formare indigna Romano Pontifice ab hoc vno tampatenti mendacio caetera discas caueas videasque qua tunc sit homo fide dignus cū totus sit in carpendis Rom. Eccles Pontificibus And therfore his accusation of the Pope for exacting a great summe of mony of the Councell first as it is impertinent to your buisinesse for his couetounsesse could not nullifie the Canons of the Councell so also is it most vnlikely to be true because Paris is recorded for a slanderer and Pope Innocent III. for a worthy and excellent man d Nauclerus vol. 2. p. 876. Nauclerus calleth him vir doctrina moribus insignis And Platina in his life saith constat cum in quouis genere vitae probatissimum fuisse dignumque qui inter Sanctos Pontifices censeatur And againe in the next words to those you cite cuius vita adeo probata fuit vt post eius mortem nihil eorum quae in vita egerit laudauerit improbaueritque immutatum est The same also saith Nauclerus and adds quin religionis apprimè studiosus But you are glad to cite any thing to the disparagement of à Pope though there be no colour of truth for it Now that nothing at all was done in this Councell which is the mayne matter you driue at e Vol. 2. p. ●15 for which you haue misinterpreted the meaning of Platina and Paris is very vntrue Which I proue first by the authority of Gregory IX who liued in the time of this Councell and was created Pope but about eleuen yeares after and commanded the Decrees should be put in the body of the Canon law wherein hee vsed the seruice of Raymundus of whom Platina thus writeth e In vita Greg. IX fine Raymundum autem Barchino nensem quo adiutore in compilando libro Decretalium Gregorius vsus est ita quidam tàm laudant vt maiori commendatione laudari nemo possit So say the Annal Ee●lEs post Bason tom 13. p 459 XV. And Binius in the life of the sayd Gregory IX saith that this Raymundus was Canonized by Clement VIII Secondly S Thom. 4. sent dist 17. q 3. art 1 ad tertiam I proue it by the testimony of the greatest DIuines of that age S. Thomas and S. Bonauenture who speaking of the precept of yearly confession S Bonau 4. sent dist 17. q. 2. arg 3. say that the Church did institute it and the Fathers command it in this Councell Thirdly by the testimony of the Councell of Trent which speaking of the same Decree calls it Conc Trid sess 14 can 8. the constitution of the great Lateran Councell And that the Acts of this Councell were alwayes extant and are not counterfait appeares in that they now are and haue beene in the body of the Canon law euer since the time of Greg. IX who commanded them to be inserted and f Annal. Eecles post Baron tom 13. anno 1234. XV. anno 1234. which were but nineteene yeares after the Councell approued the collection Neither could any man haue meanes to know the truth of the Canons better than hee the Councell hauing beene held not long before by his vncle in that citty where hee being Pope could command the sight of all the monuments and many were still aliue who had beene present in the Councell celebrated but nineteene yeares before the publishing of these Canons knew therfore what was done in it better than those who were further remoued either in time as Platina was or in place as was Matthew Paris if they had as you suppose said any thing against it Nor was it likely that Pope Gregory either would or could haue obtruded them before the eyes of such great Prelats and Princes for decrees made in Councell had they not beene so indeed Nor would the Church the things there determined soe much concerning her nor they who did soe much emulate her proceedings haue beene silent had such a thing beene attempted Lastly I proue that there were Canons made in this Councell yea and that those Canons were receiued in England a thing which you deny towards the end of your discourse by a f Matth. Paris hist ma. anno 1222. generall Coūcell so it is stiled of England held at Oxford by Stephen Archbishop of Canterbury in the yeare 1222. which was but seuen yeares after this of Lateran and about 12. yeares before the Canons therof were put into the Decretalls by Gregory IX where towards the end it is said g Binij Cōoil tom 7. part 2.2 fol. 833. Vt autem omnia fine bono concludantur Lateranense Concilium sub sanctae recordationis Papa Innocentio celebratum in praestatione decimarum in aliis capitulis praecipimus obseruari But this is not all you haue to say against this Councell C. There be many things besides which may make vs iustly to suspect the authority of this pretended great Councell For first before Cochlaeus put 〈◊〉 forth it was neuer extant and it was but lately neither that hee put it forth in the yeare 1538. Three yeares before whē Merlin put forth the Councells there was no such Councell that hee met withall to set out it is not in his edition But Cochlaeus a man not so well to be trusted who feigned many things in writing Luthers life tells vs that hee had the Decrees of this Councell out of an antient booke but where hee got that booke or who first compiled it or of what authority it was hee tells vs nothing at all It is most likely that antient booke was no other but the booke of the Popes Decretalls where those things that are said by him to be decreed in this Councell are heere and there scattered in seuerall places Those scatterings I belieue did Cochlaeus or some other collect together and made vp one body of them in manner and forme of a Councell But so illfauored a forme hath hee giuen it that often it betrayeth it selfe not to be genuine and taken out of any authenticke coppy ANSWER You further say that there are many things besides which may make you iustly suspect the authority of this pretended great Councell as you are pleased to call it I easily belieue that there are many things that make you not only to suspect but flatly to reiect the authority of this and many other Generall Councells but none iustly But it is not the authority of this Generall Councell which is the same in all but the verity of the Canons and Decrees therof you would haue sayd and the authority of thē that affirme those Decrees that you with so much sagacity suspect And if you thinke the Councell and the Canons thereof but pretended which are acknowledged true by the voyce of all the Catholiques of the world what shall make them to be accounted reall or shall the voyce of one pretended Deane

scornefully and boldly call pret●nded shall be really accounted Generall by the best and noblest part of the world the Catholique Church when all other pretended Churches Councells and their Canons their Bishops Deanes and Chapters shall haue no being nor memory but of dishonour You further say according to your manner without proofe that this Councell vas not Generall for want of the personall presence of two of the Patriarchs wherein you are much mistaken for otherwise the first fower commonly stiled Generall and for such acknowledged by very many Protestants cannot be truly such because the Chiefe Patriarch the Bishop of Rome was not present in any of them but by his Legats Vnlesse you will say that though two may not be absent yet one may especially when that one is the Pope a man whō you I know can very well spare not only out of the Councell but out of the world And yet I wonder that you that haue had the fortune to be the pretended Deane of S. Peters Borough and the pretended Master of S. Peters house should yet be such an enemy to S. Peters chayre But if you desire to know what makes a Councell generall and what are the insufficiencies thereof which you ought to haue expressed and proued before you had shot your hasty bolt of condemnation against this Councell reade Turrecremata and Canus vpon this subiect You at last conclude thus Howsoeuer nihil ibi actum quod quidem constet and so was it neither any generall Councell nor so much as any Councell at all Wherein first your proposition is false and hath no authority that I know of but the worst in the world your owne Yet you set it downe in Latin as if they were the words of some author but neither expresse the place nor so much as his name and therfore I take it for yours and reiect it Secondly if it were true that nothing as done there yet your inference from thence is incōsequent to wit that therfore it was neither any generall Councell nor so much as any Councell at all concerning the nullities of a Councell or of the generality therof I need say no more than I haue done seeing it rests on you to proue that doing nothing is one And for your affirmation that nothing was done I haue fully disproued it through this whole discourse I will therfore only adde the testimony of Matth. Paris who though he were no friend to this Pope as I haue shewed before yet speaking of this Councell in the place aboue cited saith thus His omnibus congregatis in suo loco praefato iuxta morem Conciliorum Generalium in suis ordinibus singulis collocatis facto prius ab ipso Papa exhortationis sermone recitata sunt in pleno Concilio capitula 60. Wherein is a mistake in the figure it should be 70. quae aliis placabilia aliis videbantur onerosa Tandem de negotio Crucifixi subiectione terrae sanctae verbum praedicationis exorsus subiunxit dicens Ad haec ne quid in negotio Iesu Christi de contingentibus omittatatur volumus mandamus c. And so repeats at large the substance of the Decree of the Expedition for the recouery of the Holy land So that it is manifest by this and that which hath beene sayd before that there were many things done in this Councell yea all that are affirmed to bee And it is called a Councell and a generall Councell by Vrspergensis Paris Platina Grantzius Nauclerus Beluacēsis and all that I can finde that haue any way written therof except your vncontrowlable selfe Besides it hath the allowance of the Holy Catholique Church the awfull spouse of Christ more true more wise more vigilant and infinitly more reuerend then all the sects Synagogues of Schismatiques Heretiques therfore their obiectiōs against her whom they ought to belieue and reuerence aboue all things on the earth especially when they are propounded peremptorily as these are are fitter to be reiected than to be answered I conclude with the words of Surius a Nemo sanae mentis ambigere potest hanc quae sequitur Synodum Lateranensem cum primis insignem vere oecumenicam fuisse quippe in qua de negotiis religionis summa Latinae Graecae Ecclesiae concordiâ tractatum est cuique interfuere Patriarcha Constantinopolitanus Hierosolymitanus Archiepiscopi tum Lani tum Graeci 70. Episcopi 412. Abbates Priores plus 800. simul omnes Praelati 1215. aut eo plures Nec defuere Legati Graeci Romani Imperatoris Regum Hierusalem Galliae Hispaniae Angliae aliorum Quodsi verò ea cuiquam propterea minus ponderis habere videatur quod recentior sit ille certè Christum mendacem facere velle videtur qui perennem praesentiam suam promisit Ecclesiae suae Spiritum sanctum suum Spiritum veritatis qui cum illa maneat in aeternum Manet sua semper Catholicae Ecclesiae authoritas quam quisquis contemnere ausus est non ille efficit vt ea minor sit sed se dignum reddit qui eius pondere penitus opprimatur No man well in his wits can doubt that this Councell of Lateran was very famous and truly generall because therein were handled the matters of Religiō with very great agreement of the Greeke and Latine Churches wherin were present the Patriarch of Constantinople and Ierusalem and 70. Archbishops Greeke and Latin Bishops 412. Abbots and Priors aboue 800. all the Prelats together were one thousand two hundred and fifteene or more Neither were there absent the Ambassadours of the Greeke and Roman Emperours of the kings of Ierusalem France Spayne England and others But if this Councell seeme to any to haue lesse weight because it is later hee truly seemes to be willing to make Christ a lyar who hath promised his perpetuall presence to his Church and his Holy Spirit the Spirit of truth which remayneth with her for euer The authority of the Catholique Church doth alwayes abide here which who soeuer presumes to despise he doth not lessen her but renders himselfe worthy to be crusshed to pieces with her weight And now insteed of your prouing the Catholique writers lyars and forgers and the Catholique Church credulous negligent and ignorant which you endeauoured you haue proued your selfe vnwise vnlearned and audacious and I belieue will loose all credit and reputation of integrity or capacity in the iudgement of all prudent men of what religion soeuer they be that shall reade these your vnworthy workes But suppose the thing it selfe were true that you haue laboured for abstracting the authority to the contrary to wit that there had beene no Canons made in this Councell yea suppose there had neuer beene any such thing as this Councell what is it to your purpose What article of our Catholique Faith is therby cancelled how is your inuisible Church of England or your Chappell in France where God hath his Church defended