not mooue him Eubulus You deceiue Philomathes by concluding Theticallie and absolutelie vpon that which Augustine Hypotheticallie propoundeth and so you vnskilfullie confound diverse Cases For first inducing of an Infidell to belieue Scripture the Authoritie of the Church is a great Motiue or rather as Augustine calleth it a Commotiue and Opportanum inquirendi exordium that is A commodious entrie to inquire by Now from this speciall Case and qualitie of Case to inferre That the man by this Commotiue first induced had still there-after no other or greater Warrand for his Beliefe of Scripture but the Authoritie of the Church which first induced him it were no better Logicke than to conclude of the Samaritanes That they never had anie better Foundation of their Fayth than the Report of their Woman from the Well The Authoritie of the Church may and will often induce an Infidell to reverence and belieue Scripture but so as having come thus farte then in the communitie of that Church to discerne lawfull from vnlawfull worship and orthodox from hereticall professours the Scriptures onlie must haue place as in a case where-in to alleadge the Churches authoritie were extreamlie ridiculous it beeing the verie point in question what companie is the Church And I shewed you before how your men are alwayes deceived or at least labour to deceiue others by confounding the case of the Church considered absolutelie and in relation to Forraigners and Infidels and reasoning from it so considered to the decyding of debate 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the Church In the first the common notes are discretiue and the common authoritie a commotiue to induce but in the other there is no manner of way but the Scriptures as out of the Fathers I haue cleared And now â—…lomathes to returne to our poynâ—… whence this your â—…hreedbare Objection from Augustine hath driven â—…ee I pray you if your men are forced to confesse That the Markes of the Church are knowne by Scripture why flee they from having all both their Doctrine and Dealing examined by that same Rule What a shamelesse Sophistrie is this to â—…ject Scripture in the particular tryall of everie Article of Fayth and yet for a few wrested and pervâ—…ed Sentences where-by to proue some bastard and begâ—…yling Notes therefore impudentlie to all eadge That they for sooth doe cleare their Church by Scripture As if in all Scripture the holie Ghost had but given some Notes of a Companie where to seeke our Fayth and noâ—… clearlie set downe the Fayth which wee haue to holde and where-by to discerne the Companie which wee haue to cleaue vnto Your Cardinall Bellarmine in aunswering to some cleare Places of the Fathers nearlie pintching him namelie of Augustine is forced to flee to this which you also 〈◊〉 taken for your last Refuge That the Scripture indeede teacheth what are the Notes of the Church And I haue verilie reason to thanke both you and him for it If as I presume of you so hee also had eyther willinglie or ingenuouslie yeelded it And though you had forgotten this piece of your Armour yet I was presentlie to haue put you in mynde there-of for the cleare advantage I haue in it to conclude agaâ—…nst your 〈◊〉 all this poynt of our Dispueation I am sure that 〈◊〉 â—…o is so 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 â—… Schoâ—…Man will not agaynst Naâ—…re â—…nd all Schooles affirme of GOD the most perfect Doctour Thâ—… Hee 〈◊〉 Obseuruâ—… pâ—…r obscurius that which is obscure by anie thing which is more obscure For all knowledge proceedeth Ex natura noturibus that is of thinges which are by nature more notore than are those things which they are brought to notifie Thus then I conclude vpon your owne Position That which cleareth anie thing must it selfe be more cleare But the Scripture cleareth which are the Notes of the Church There-fore as the Notes where-by the Church is knowne must bee more cleare than the Church which is knowne by them So the Scripture which teacheth those Notes must bee more cleare than both The Scripture which is the Voyce of the LORD of the House and Great Shepheard of the Sheepe truelie taught and reverentlie received is the onlie sure and evident Ensigne of the House and Flocke And who is it that knoweth not this That the Companie is al-wayes discerned by the Colours and not the Colours by the Companie Now consider Philomathes whether your mens Objections Of Scriptures obscuritie doe fall and in what vprightnesse they are propounded And whether your Questioner bee sincerelie set to finde that which hee seemeth to seeke for or rather fraudfullie to divert the Simple from the onelie Light which leadeth to it And some of your owne Wryters convinced by cleare Trueth are forced to confesse what the more impudent sort so much oppugne Andreas Fricius thus speaketh DEVS Author est Verbi Sui quod tanti facit ut Coelum Terra facilius transitura sint quam Verba Ipsius pessum itura Ille est qui tuetur Verbum Suum qui authoritatem tribuit qui illud in dignitatem vindicat qui per Spiritum S. obsignat in cordibus hominum Testimonium quidem Ecclesia Spiritu DEI affâ—…ata dare potest Verbo Doctrinae hanc scilicet quam â—…am inde ab Apostolis quafi per manus acâ—…pisset non aliâ—…m esse à DEO prolitam Authoritatem verâ—… Illi â—…ribuere nemo potest praeter DEVM ipsum qui est Author illius Illustrator Defensor Propugâ—…ator Agayne the same Author Lib. 4. de Ecclesia Cap. 7. Ecclesiam necesse est accommodari ad Verbum non Verbum ad Ecclesiam Verbum Fundamentum est Ecclesia aedificium in illo collocatum Gabriel Biel Lib. 3. Sentent Distinct. 26. Scripturae canonicae absque omni approbatione Ecclesiae ex natura â—…ei sunt immutabiles immutabiliter verae Hosius in Confess Cap. 16. Non aliter nos credimus Evangelio nisi propter Vocem DEI intus loquentis et nos docentis So as Philomathes if you will not belieue vs yet your owne men may tell you Whether your Poet hath wandered him-selfe and would draw others with him in Darknesse Philadelphus Hee will haue vs to seeke after the Church as Children at Chacke-blynd-man groape after their Fellowes For first hee would picke out our Eyes or syle vs from seeing and then forsooth set vs a-searching But they who doe evill hate the Light and the Church of Rome had rather choose That this Debate were never decided than that the cleare convincing Marke were brought where-by they might bee found out who they are Through open Streete with lighted Lampe in hand A vayne surveyning Sophist walkt at Noone Where-of when one the Motiue did demand His rugged Reason thus hee rendred soone 'Mongst Men more mad than Mamacks by the Moone I search sayde hee if I can finde one wyse Asse th' other sayde thyne Head is out of tune Canst thou discerne one though thou sawst him thryse But more your man is
must first bee assured that it is the Bryde which speaketh and not a masked Harlot vnder that name As for your Objection of Scriptures obscuritie where-vpon by accusing Scripture you would build an excuse of seeking some other Rule it both contumeliouslie taxeth GOD and is also in it selfe sophisticall It is clearlie contumelious agaynst GOD in that CHRIST commanding to search Scripture for a cleare witnessing of Him the holie Ghost affirming by Peter that the word of Scripture is a sure and shyning word by Paul that it is able to make the man of GOD wyse to everie good worke and exhorting all men praysing in all men the diligent reading and meditation there-of there-by to discerne spirites and to prooue what is propounded vnto them that David al-most all-where speaking so divinelie of the playnnesse and power there-of as where-by even a Chylde may learne to addresse his wayes Yet some of your men Philomathes are not ashamed disdaynfullie to call it a Leaden Rule and a Nose of Waxe as if the Almightie and only wyse GOD had not eyther wysely anough or lovinglie provyded for the direction of His House and that men forsooth will or can finde out a more cleare and certayne way But what-so-ever obscuritie had appeared to bee in Scripture or howe vncertayne so-ever the vayne and running Humours of men might appeare to make it by their diversitie of Interpretations yet this should ever haue religiouslietyed vs there-to that our LORD hath left it vs for a Lanterne to our Feete and sole and perpetuall Ground of our Fayth studying therefore with all humilitie cleannesse of heart and earnest prayer to attayne the knowledge there-of and not proudlie and rebelliouslie to take such counsell as did Israell in the Wildernesse Wee know not what is become of this Moses make vs therefore gods to goe before vs. The advyse of Augustine is much more both sound and sober than is that of your Church-men That in reading of Scripture if wee can not take vp the verie genuine sense and meaning of the place at least let vs not expound that place of Scripture in a sense repugning to the Analogie of Fayth So shall wee bee lyke to a man who how-so-ever hee hath aberred from the direct way yet hee wandreth in the Fields leading to the Towne where-at hee would bee I affirmed Philomathes that your Objection of Scriptures obscuritie was also Sophisticall and thus I cleare it All reason of obscuritie must bee eyther in the matter it selfe or in the manner of delyverie or in the weaknesse of their perception to whome it is delyvered Of divine thinges wee acknowledge that how-so-ever for most reall and constant existence they bee of all thinges the most certayne yet that for their retyred eminencie to all creatures of all thinges the most obscure But for the manner of deliverie as GOD in holie Scripture hath revealed them we affirme that all the wisdome and eloquence of all creatures even in a conceived matter could never haue found out so playne a manner or so farre and lovinglie haue attempered it to the capacitie of man as in so high mysteries and a constant remayning Rule of Fayth was possible And yet how-so-ever they bee thus delivered wee acknowledge that no naturall man and naturall onlie is capable of them For they are spirituallie discerned But the spirituall man by the Spirit of GOD in him will discerne the things of GOD. To reason then from the naturall obscuritie or retyred eminencie of the matter to the manner of deliverie or from the weaknesse of man's perception to conclude of the manner of deliverie or from the perception of the naturall man to conclude of the perception of the spirituall man it were al-wayes absurd Sophistication We are bolde to say with the holie Ghost That how-so-ever to most part of men the Mysteries of the Kingdome bee spoken in parables that hearing they may heare and not vnderstand and seeing they may see and not perceiue Yet That Who-so-ever doeth the will of the FATHER they will knowe the Doctrine whether it bee of GOD or whether men speake of them-selues That CHRIST HIS true Sheepe knowe His Voyce and knowe the voyce of a Stranger Wee avouch That the wordes of Wisdome are all playne to him that will vnderstand and straight to him that will finde Knowledge That Scorner seeketh Wisdome and findeth it not but Knowledge is easie to him that will vnderstand So as if the Trueth bee hid it is hid to them whose eyes the Prince of this World hath picked out and whom GOD justlie eyther for misregard or pryde of mynde hath given over to the efficacie of Errour to groape even at noone day Neyther maketh your Sophisticall Objection of diversitie of Interpretation against this for how-so-ever manie particular places in Scripture appeare still difficill and doubtfull to vs which but know in part and prophesie in part yet wee affirme with Augustine That even in those things which are playnlie set downe in Scripture are all things to bee found which contayne Fayth and Rules of living and that nothing almost is ripped out of the most obscure parts which will not bee found in some other place most playnlie spoken Philomathes To grant you even all that you haue sayde either of the plainnesse or plentifulâ—…esse of holie Scripture yet what shall you gaine there-by against our Questioner or how shall you justifie the imputations of want of Care Skill or Conscience layde on him by you seeing both our Church confesseth that the Scripture showeth which bee the true Markes of the Church and such Notes as are heere brought by our man hee prooveth them all from Scripture Eubulus How eyther proper or pertinent your Poet's Markes are which hee bringeth and how well hee prooveth them from Scripture or other-wayes wee shall see GOD willing in the particular examination of each where-by all his Corne shall bee found but Chaffe and that carelessie skillessie or fraudfullie hee hath fled the onelie demonstratiue Marke to seduce the simple with Topicall showes You say your Church acknowledgeth that by Scripture the true Marks of the Church are knowne But Philomathes they fall never to say so but when they are reduced to such straits as eyther they must say it or bee snared For their common Doctrine is well anough knowne which can so little consist with this which you haue now granted as the one evidentlie over-throweth the other For doe not your men make all the authoritie of Scripture to depende so farre on the Church her suffrage as that therefore onlie you are sure such such to be canonicke Scriptures because the Church hath so determined Thus monstrouslie you make one and the same to bee both the Mother and the Daughter and of one Philomathes But thus you taxe Augustine no lesse than vs who affirmeth that hee would not belieue Scripture if the authoritie of the Churh did
vnder Sense and so can bee no Marke at all Sophisticall for that of that which we confesse to be a true Attribute of the Church hee would conclude a discerning Marke But all Attributes are not Markes Now Eriphilus refell mine Argument or graunt mee I pray you some respite from burning for without merite you haue al-readie burned too manie vpon humour Philadelphus You could not away Eriphilus with my Sonnets but as I thinke Eubulus Syllogismes are no lesse pricking Philomathes But I pray you Eubulus how-so-ever your Reasons are subtill and I can not denye but builded vpon confessed Grounds and how-so-ever that Catholicke is an Attribute as you call it of the Church is apprehended by Fayth yet seeing that the moste approoved Fathers in their Disputations agaynst the Heretickes of their tymes doe presse them sore with the Authoritie of the Catholicke Church which they ordinarilie oppose vnto them it would appeare that they had some reason to doe so and that even Vniversalitie is in some respect a Marke of the true Church Neyther see I howe you can disapprooue our Mens Argument agaynst you brought from this Note except you will condemne those Famous and Auncient Fathers also as having vaynlie and sophisticallie reasoned for the Trueth Eubulus To cleare you Philomathes of all doubt heerein and to free our selues from anie eyther conscience of our owne guiltinesse where-fore we would reject this Reason or of anie vnreverend Opinion of those Fathers who as you truelie affirme in some Cases and Respectes did vse it the aequivocation of this word Catholicke must be opened vp where-by your Doctours willinglie illude and where-by your simple ones are vnwittinglie deceived For the Catholicke Church is of the Fathers so called eyther properlie and absolutelie or improperlie and but in some speciall Respect and Relation Absolutelie and most properlie the Catholicke Church is the whole number of what-so-ever tyme or place who haue beene are or shall bee vnited vnto CHRIST their Head and liue in Him by His Spirit whether heere on Earth fighting or hence in Heaven triumphing Absolutelie and lesse properlie the Catholicke Church is the whole militant companie heere on Earth of what-so-ever Kinred Tongue or Nation vnder one and the same common Ensigne of Christian Profession whether Hypocrites or true Professours whether pure or corrupt Worshippers whether Orthodox or Hereticall as even Bellarmine argueth Cap. 7. De Notis Eccles. In anie of which Cases shee is believed and in her Vniversalitie falleth not vnder Sense Improperlie agayne and in opposite Relation the Church is called CATHOLICKE for two Respects The one In opposite Relation to the Church of the Iewes which was limited within the compasse of one People and of one Region the Christian Church no more so confined but spread indifferentlie over all is called the CATHOLICKE CHVRCH Neyther thus because that eyther al-wayes all Peoples Vniversallie or moste parte of Men embrace the Gospell but because the Entrie is opened and offered indifferentlie vnto all The other Respect was the opposite Relation to hereticall Companies separating them-selues by Errour from the common Bodie of the Church Trueth mayntayned there-in And in this last Respect it is that al-most the Fathers cōmonlie speak of it calling the Cōmunitie of the Visible Church retayning Trueth in relation to particular hereticall Companies the CATHOLICKE CHVRCH And in this Sense opposing ordinarilie to arrogant men the Authoritie Multitude Consent Succession c. of the Catholicke Church as you haue alleadged Philomathes But in this manner of the Fathers reasoning two things are carefullie to bee marked whereby the Fathers shall bee found both pertinentlie and prudentlie to haue vsed this Argument where by your men now shall bee seene evidentlie and impudentlie to abuse it The first is that state and condition of the Church wherein this Argument hath place according as it was when the Fathers vsed it The second is what weight or moment the Fathers placed in it The state of the Church then was in common pure holding Trueth and by the force thereof purging or expelling all in-bred or accressing evils or Heresies So as then though by an improper Speach yet the Communalitie of the Church keeping Trueth in relation to a few Declyners might not impertinentlie bee called the Catholicke Church and her authoritie might well haue beene opposed vnto them But who in a plaine contrarie state and condition of the Church when Errour obtaineth in common and Trueth is afflicted and borne downe yet without consideration of the altered State and Condition would still vse the same reason from Multitude and what-so-ever or how-so-ever an obtaining State hee were a ridiculous Sophister confounding diverse and distinct times and cases To reason from the state of the Church in Ephesus where-in evill was not tollerated to the state of the Church in Smirna where-in Heretickes waxed prowde and despysed the abject state of true Professours it were sophisticall but much more sophisticall to reason from the state in Ephesus to the state in Pergamus when the true Church dwelt even where Satan's Throne was knowne to GOD though hid from the worldlie sort To reason from the Woman cloathed with the Sunne treading the Moone and crowned with twelue Starres to the same Woman lurking in the Wildernesse it concludeth not for as in the first Case the Fathers had reason and did wyselie to convince by all Advantages so whyle the Case is clearlie altered according as by Scripture was fore-tolde and Antichrist hath obtayned a Throne even in the Temple when the Evill or Gangrene in the bodie and having even over-gone the Bodie in common will contende agaynst the healthsome remnant then are wee both to leaue improper Speaches and wyselie to distinguish deceitfullie-confounded Tymes and Cases and properlie to pleade That the Gangrene in the Bodie and even affecting and over-going the Bodie in common yet is but an Adherent or accressing Evill in but not of the Bodie and That the healthsome remnant retayning the Lyfe of the Head and by vertue there-of resisting the over-going Gangrene is the true Catholicke Church And this altered Condition of Tyme and of the Church in tyme which maketh the Argument some-tyme pertinentlie vsed to bee nowe ridiculous besides that both SCRIPTVRE hath fore-tolde it the FATHERS did see the working on of it and wee haue aboundantlie often prooved and still offer to prooue it It is cleare also by that other Poynt which I propounded to bee observed in this reasoning of the FATHERS namelie What Weyght or Moment they placed in that same Argument VVhere-in they even professe That they vsed it not as an infallible demonstratiue Marke but as a Motiue vvhich beeing joyned with cleare TRVETH was worthie to bee regarded but which eyther without TRVETH or agaynst TRVETH should carrie no Credite This is evident by Augustine vsing this same Argument agaynst Faustus Manichaeus and opposing the Authoritie of the Catholicke Church Multitude Antiquitie Succession c.
to his bare bragging of the TRVETH Which TRVETH not-with-standing sayeth that Father if you can show so clearlie as it can not bee gayne-sayde it is to bee praeferred to all these thinges where-by I am holden within the Catholicke Church If the name of the Catholicke Church were in this place properlie to bee taken then should Augustine's supposed Case be ridiculous For Trueth can never be found any-where els but within the Catholicke Church taken properlie Where-by it is cleare that the Catholicke Church in this and such other places is taken for the Communalitie of the visible Church which having Trueth should bee regarded But to whose Authoritie not the lesse the cleare Trueth found with never so few Holders is to bee preferred For Wee ought not to consent no not to Catholicke Bishops sayeth the same Father if they holde anie Opinion contrarie to Canonicke Scriptures Where-by is manifest both in what Sense the Fathers reasoned from the Authoritie of the Catholicke Church and what force they placed in that Argument and that how-so-ever by them and in that tyme and case of a Church it was not inconvenientlie vsed yet that now in so farre different a state still to vsurpe it in a lyke manner were extreame impudencie This Chrysostome did both fore-see and gaue warning of it that the altered state of the Church behooved to bring men to a more neare and proper Rule of Examination as in his Testimonies aboue cited is cleare In that how-so-ever before that Heresie obtayned place in the Church and the abhomination of desolation stood also in sanctis Ecclesiae locis in the holie places of the Church manie wayes were to discerne the Church as while Trueth helde place in common was Vniversalitie improperlie taken Multitude Consent Succession c yet now after that hereticall contagion hath infected the Bodie in common no manner of way is to discerne the true Church amidst the corrupted communitie of the Church but onlie the Scriptures You are greatlie deceived Philomathes if you esteeme the Church therefore to bee called CATHOLICKE eyther because al-wayes the moste parte of men shall come in to her and embrace the Profession or yet That of such as come in to her the moste parte shall al-wayes holde the Trueth But Shee is CATHOLICKE because her Gates that are nowe casten open to all Kinreds Tongues and Nations that the righteous Nation may enter in And how-so-ever that neyther most part come in neyther of such as are in her is the most part of her or saved yet all vniversallie who are saved must both bee in her and of her And how-so-ever in her most part keepe not Trueth yet no Trueth is but in her If as your Men are al-readie perceiving and there-vpon are gnawing their Tongues for sorrowe the Trueth preached by vs take in short tyme such successe as the Waters of your Euphrates shall be dryed vp and if Multitude and Consent of Nations shall bee with vs will you there-fore yeelde vs the Title of the Catholicke Church If multitude of Holders bee al-wayes a sure Marke of the true Church how sayeth the Scripture That All shall follow the Beast And you confesse That Antichrist when hee commeth shall obtayne Vniversallie Now if in Antichrist his vsurpation Vniversalitie shall bee no Note of the Church how see you not That verie vnjustlie you lay it al-wayes agaynst vs and That what-so-ever Vniversalitie you can alleadge for your Pope it exeemeth him not from beeing that Antichrist except hee cleare him-selfe by better Defences Thus I hope I haue cleared That wee neyther disprooue the Fathers reasoning agaynst Heretickes in opposing to them the Authoritie of the Catholicke Church and yet that you haue not there-fore anie eyther Right in their Argument or Ground there-vpon to make CATHOLICKE a discerning Marke of the Church So as your man's mayne Proposition so farre as concerneth this Note of Vniversalitie is still sophisticall and vayne But nowe if it were even a discerning Marke as your Men would make it yet let vs trye howe justlie your Church doeth vindicate it to her selfe and let vs examine your Man's mayne Assumption in that part Philadelphus As you haue dressed his Proposition in that part I thinke all labour agaynst his Assumption were ydle For if CATHOLICKE can bee no discerning Marke of the Church no not anie Marke at all as you haue at length and evidentlie evinced how can it bee Romes Marke Eubulus Yet Philadelphus I will omit no-thing where-by I may possiblie induce Eriphilus to take more of my counsell But in refelling this your Man's Assumption of his mayne Argument where-by hee appropriateth to Rome the Title of the Catholicke Church I must protest Eriphilus that it bee no praejudice to my matter that you doe so confidentlie call your selues Catholickes and your Companie the Catholicke Church else if you will haue this your vsurping of that name to carrie anie weight and that therefore you will haue vs to account so of you I desire of you the same aequitablenesse in our Case That because wee both esteeme and call our selues The Catholicke Church and Catholicke Men that therefore you will holde vs for such Or if you consider that an Argument à dici ad esse concludeth not and that there-fore pertinentlie the Logicians place before their Categories the Distinction 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of thinges that are sayde and of thinges that are Then let vs lay aside what eyther you of your selues or wee of our selues doe partiallie speake or arrogantlie arrogate and let vs trye what is true of vs both Philomathes Your Protestation is most aequitable For a bare Clayme except it bee instructed can make no Title Eubulus Then Philomathes in that part of your Poet's Ryme which is inscrybed CATHOLICKE and which you did lastlie reade besides the Proposition which I haue refelled hee assumeth That the Note of Catholicke or Vniversalitie conveaneth properlie to the Church of Rome Which false Assumption hee seeketh to sustayne by foure Reasons the first of which hee concludeth thus What Companie did take in hand and accordinglie first performed the publishing of the Gospell thorow the Worlde and converted all Nations to the Fayth that must bee the Companie to which the Title of CATHOLICKE or VNIVERSALITIE properlie belongeth and that Companie is the Catholicke Church But the Church of Rome onlie did both vnder-take and performe this There-fore the Church of Rome is the Catholicke Church and to her properlie that Note belongeth Now heere some Poëticall inspiration hath transported your man to giue vs such whether a definition or description of Catholicke as till now none ever heard of Wee esteemed as I haue shewed that the Catholicke Church had beene that companie of what-so-ever Tyme Place or Nation which in the communion of one and the same Spirit joyned to their Head CHRIST doe make vp the fulnesse of His mysticall Bodie whether in the Heavens triumphing or as yet heere in their course fighting