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A30411 A relation of a conference held about religion at London, the third of April, 1676 by Edw. Stillingfleet ... and Gilbert Burnet, with some gentlemen of the Church of Rome. Burnet, Gilbert, 1643-1715.; Stillingfleet, Edward, 1635-1699. 1676 (1676) Wing B5861; ESTC R14666 108,738 278

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And in his Epistles to Timothy and Titus wherein the rules of the Pastoral charge are set down he commands Timothy and in him all Bishops and Pastors to hold fast the Doctrine and form of sound words which he had delivered and tells him the Scriptures were able to make the man of God perfect If then the Bishops and Pastors of this Church found it corrupted by any unsound Doctrine or Idolatrous worship they were by the Law of God and the charge of Souls for which they were accountable obliged to throw out these corruptions and reform the Church and this the rather that the first Question proposed in the Consecration of a Bishop as it is in the Pontifical is Wilt thou teach these things which thou understandest to be in the Scripture to the people committed to thee both by thy Doctrine and Example To which he answers I will M. C. said We had now offered as much as would be the subject of many dayes discourse and he had but few minutes to spare therefore he desired to be informed what authority those Bishops had to judge in matters which they found not only in this Church but in all Churches round about them should they have presumed to judge in these matters D. S. said It had been frequently the practice of many Nations and Provinces to meet in Provincial Synods and reform abuses For which he offered to prove they had both authority and president But much more in some instances he was ready to shew of particulars that had been defined by General Councils which they only applied to their circumstances and this was never questioned but Provincial Synods might do M. C. desired to be first satisfied by what Authority they could cut themselves off from the obedience of the See of Rome in King Henry the VIII his days The Pope then was looked on as the Monarch of the Christian world in Spirituals and all Christendom was one Church under One Head and had been so for many Ages So that if a Province or Country would cut themselves from the Body of this Nation for instance Wales that had once distinct Princes and say we acknowledge no right William the Conquerour had so that we reject the Authority of those descended from him they might have the same plea which this our Church had For the day before that Act of Parliament did pass after the 20. of Henry the VIII the Pope had the Authority in Spirituals and they were his Subjects in Spirituals Therefore their Declaring he had none could not take his Authority from him no more than the Long Parliament had right to declare by an Act that the Soveraign Power was in the Peoples hands in pursuance of which they cut off the Kings head D. S. said The first General Councils as they established the Patriarchal Power so the Priviledges of several Churches were preserved entire to them as in the case of Cyprus that the British Churches were not within the Patriarchal Jurisdiction of Rome that afterwards the Bishops of Rome striking in with the Interests of the Princes of Europe and watching and improving all advantages got up by degrees through many ages into that height of Authority which they managed as ill as they unjustly acquired it and particularly in England where from King William the Conqueror his days as their Illegal and oppressive Impositions were a constant Grievance to the People so our Princes and Parliaments were ever put to strugle with them But to affront their Authority Thomas Becket who was a Traitour to the Law must be made a Saint and a day kept for him in which they were to pray to God for mercy through his merits It continuing thus for several Ages in the end a vigorous Prince arises who was resolved to assert his own Authority And he looking into the Oaths the Bishops swore to the Pope they were all found in a Praemunire by them Then did the whole Nation agree to assert their own freedom and their Kings Authority And 't was considerable that those very Bishops that in Qu●en Marys days did most cruelly persecute those of the Church of England and advance the Interests of Rome were the most zealous Assertors and Defenders of what was done by King Henry the VIII Therefore the Popes power in England being founded on●●o● just Title and being managed with so much oppression there was both a full Authority and a great deal of reason for rejecting it And if the Major Generals who had their Authority from Cromwell might yet have declared for the King who had the true title and against the Usurper so the Bishops though they had sworn to the Pope yet that being contrary to the Allegiance they ow'd the King ought to have asserted the Kings Authority and rejected the Pope's M. B. said It seemed M. C. founded the Popes Right to the Authority he had in England chiefly upon Prescrip said to tion But there were two things to be that First that no prescription runs against a divine right In the clearing of titles among men Prescription is in some cases a good title But if by the Laws of God the Civil powers have a supream Authority over their subjects then 〈◊〉 prescription whatsoever can void this Besides the Bishops having full Authority and Jurisdiction this could not be bounded or limited by any obedience the Pope claimed from them Further there can be no prescription in this case where the Usurpation has been all along contested and opposed We were ready to prove that in the first Ages all Bishops were accounted brethren Colleagues and fellow-Bishops with the Bishop of Rome That afterwards as he was declared Patriarch of the West so the other Patriarchs were equal in authority to him in their several Patriarchates That Britain was no part of his Patriarchate but an exempt as Cyprus was That his Power as Patriarch was only for receiving Appeals or calling Synods and did not at all encroach on the jurisdiction of other Bishops in their Sees and that the Bishops in his Patriarchate did think they might separate from him A famous Instance of this was in the sixth Century when the Question was about the tria Capitula for which the Western Bishops did generally stand and Pope Vigilius wrote in defence of them but Iustinian the Emperour having drawn him to Constantinople he consented with the Fifth Council to the condemning them Upon which at his return many of the Western Bishops did separate from him And as Victor Bishop of Tunes tells us who lived at that time That Pope was Synodically excommunicated by the Bishops of Africk It is true in the eighth Century the Decretal Epistles being forged his pretensions were much advanced yet his universal jurisdiction was contested in all Ages as might be proved from the known Instance of Hincmar Bishop of Rheims and many more Therefore how strong soever the Argument from Prescription may be in Civil things it is of no force here M. C.
Christ and following his example But when we were for some years thus tried in the fire then did God again bless us with the protection of the rightful and lawful Magistrate Then did our Church do as the Primitive Church had done under Theodosius when she got out from a long and cruel persecution of the Arrians under those enraged Emperours Constantius and Valens They reformed the Church from the Arrian Doctrine but would not imitate them in their persecuting spirit And when others had too deep resentments of the ill usage they had met with under the Arrian Tyranny Nazianzen and the other holy Bishops of that time did mitigate their animosities So that the Churches were only taken from the Arrians but no storms were raised against them So in the beginning of Queen Elizabeths reign it cannot be denied that those of that Church were long suffered to live at quiet among us with little or no disturbance save that the Churches were taken out of their hands Nor were even those who had bathed themselves in so much blood made examples so entirely did they retain the meekness and lenity of the Christian spirit And if after many years quiet those of that Religion when they met with no trouble from the government did notwithstanding enter into so many plots and conspiracies against the Queens person and the established government was it any wonder that severe Laws were made against them and those Emissaries who under a pretence of coming in a mission were sent as spies and agents among us to fill all with blood and confusion Whom had they blame for all this but themselves or was this any thing but what would have been certainly done in the gentlest and mildest government upon earth For the Law of self-preservation is engraven on all mens natures and so no wonder every State and government sees to its own security against those who seek its ruine and destruction and it had been no wonder if upon such provocations there had been some severities used which in themselves were unjustifiable for few take reparation in an exact equality to the damage and injury they have received But since that time they have had very little cause to complain of any hard treatment and if they have met with any they may still thank the officious insolent deportment of some of their own Church that have given just cause of jealousie and fear But I shall pursue this discourse no farther hoping enough is already said upon the head that engaged me to it to make it appear that it was possible the Doctrine of the Church should be changed in this matter and that it was truly changed From which I may be well allowed to subsume that our Church discovering that this change was made had very good reason and a sufficient authority to reform this corruption and restore the Primitive Doctrine again And now being to leave my Reader I shall only desire him to consider a little of how great importance his eternal concerns are and that he has no reason to look for endless happiness if he does not serve God in a way suitable to his will For what hopes soever there may be for one who lives and dies in some unknown error yet there are no hopes for those that either neglect or despise the truth and that out of humour or any other carnal account give themselves up to errours and willingly embrace them Certainly God sent not his Son in the world nor gave him to so cruel a death for nothing If he hath revealed his Counsels with so much solemnity his designs in that must be great and worthy of God The true ends of Religion must be the purifying our Souls the conforming us to the Divine Nature the uniting us to one another in the most tender bonds of Love Truth Justice and Goodness the raising our minds to a Heavenly and contemplative temper and our living as Pilgrims and strangers on this earth ever waiting and longing for our change Now we dare appeal all men to shew any thing in our Religion or Worship that obstructs any of these ends on the contrary the sum and total of our Doctrine is the conforming our selves to Christ and his Apostles both in faith and life So that it can scarce be devised what should make any body that hath any sense of Religion or regard to his Soul forsake our Communion where he finds nothing that is not highly suitable to the Nature and ends of Religion and turn over to a Church that is founded on and cemented in carnal interests the grand design of all their attempts being to subject all to the Papal tyranny which must needs appear visibly to every one whose eyes are opened For attaining which end they have set up such a vast company of additions to the simplicity of the Faith and the purity of the Christian Worship that it is a great work even to know them Is it not then a strange choice to leave a Church that worships God so as all understand what they do and can say Amen to go to a Church where the worship is not understood so that he who officiats is a Barbarian to them A Church which worships God in a spiritual unexceptionable manner to go to a Church that is scandalously to raise this charge no higher full of images and pictures and that of the blessed Trinity before which prostrations and adorations are daily made A Church that directs her devotions to God and his Son Jesus Christ to go to a Church that without any good warrant not only invocates Saints and Angels but also in the very same form of words which they offer up to God and Jesus Christ which is a thing at least full of scandal since these words must be strangely wrested from their natural meaning otherwise they are high blasphemies A Church that commemorates Christs death in the Sacrament and truly communicates in his body and blood with all holy reverence and due preparation● to go to a Church that spends all her devotion in an outward adoring the Sacrament without communicating with any due care but resting in the Priestly absolution allows it upon a single attrition A Church that administers all the Sacraments Christ appointed and as he appointed them to go to a Church that hath added many to those he appointed and hath maimed that he gave for a pledge of his presence when he left this earth In a word that leaves a Church that submits to all that Christ and his Apostles taught and in a secondary order to all delivered to us by the Primitive Church to go to a Church that hath set up an authority that pretends to be equal to these sacred oracles and has manifestly cancelled most of the Primitive Constitutions But it is not enough to remain in the Communion of our Church for if we do not walk conform to that holy Faith taught in it we disgrace it Let all therefore that have zeal
said Now we are got into a contest of 1700. years story but I know not when we shall get out of it He confessed there was no Prescription against a divine right and acknowledged all Bishops were alike in their Order but not in their Jurisdiction as the Bishop of Oxford was a Bishop as well as the Archbishop of Canterbury and yet he was inferiour to him in Jurisdiction But desired to know what was in the Popes authority that was so intolerable D. S. said That he should only debate about the Popes Jurisdiction and to his question for one Particular That from the days of Pope Paschal the II. all Bishops swear obedience to the Pope was intolerable bondage M. C. said Then will you acknowledg that before that Oath was imposed the Pope was to be acknowledged adding That let us fix a time wherein we say the Pope began to usurp beyond his just authority and he would prove by Protestant Writers that he had as great power before that time M. B. said Whatever his Patriarchal power was he had none over Britain For it was plain we had not the Christian faith from the Roman Church as appeared from the very story of Austin the Monk S. P. T. said Did not King Lucius write to the Pope upon his receiving the Christian Faith M. C. said he would wave all that and ask if the Church of England could justifie her for saking the obedience of the Bishop of Rome when all the rest of the Christian world submitted to it D. S. said He wondred to hear him speak so Were not the Greek the Armenian the Nestorian and the Abissen Churches separated from the Roman M. C. said He wondred as much to hear him reckon the Nestorians among the Churches that were condemned Hereticks D. S. said It would be hard for him to prove them Nestorians M. C. asked why he called them so then D. S. answered because they were generally best known by that name M. W. said Did not the Greek Church reconcile it self to the Roman Church at the Council of Florence D. S. said Some of their Bishops were partly trepanned partly threatned into it but their Church disowned them and it both and continues to do so to this day M. W. said Many of the Greek Church were daily reconciled to the Church of Rome and many of the other Eastern Bishops had sent their obedience to the Pope D. S. said They knew there was enough to be said to these things that these arts were now pretty well discovered But he insisted to prove the Usurpations of Rome were such as were inconsistent with the supreme civil authority● and shewed the oath in the Pontifi●●le by which for instance If the Pope command a Bishop to go to Rome and his King forbid it he must obey the Pope and disobey the King M. C. said These things were very consistent that the King should be supream in Civils and the Pope in Spirituals So that if the Pope commanded a thing that were Civil the King must be obeyed and not he M. B. said By the words of the Oath the Bishops were to receive and help the Popes Legates both in coming and going Now suppose the King declared it Treason to receive the Legate yet in this case the Bishops are sworn to obey the Pope and this was a case that fell out often D. S. instanced the case of Queen Mary M. C. said If he comes with false Mandates he is not a Legate M. B. said Suppose as has fallen out an hundred times he comes with Bulls and well warranted but the King will not suffer him to enter his Dominions here the Bishops must either be Traitors or perjured M. C. said All these things must be understood to have tacite conditions in them though they be not expressed and gave a Simile which I have forgot D. S. said It was plain Paschal the second devised that Oath on purpose to cut off all those reserves of their duty to their Princes And therefore the words are so full and large that no Oath of Allegiance was ever conceived in more express terms M. B. said It was yet more plain from the words that preceed that clause about Legates that they shall be on no Counsel to do the Pope any injury and shall reveal none of his secrets By which a provision was clearly made that if the Pope did engage in any quarrel or war with any Prince the Bishops were to assist the Popes as their sworn subjects and to be faithful spies and correspondents to give intelligence As he was saying this L. T. did whisper D. S. who presently told the company that the Ladies at whose desire we came thither entreated we would speak to things that concerned them more and discourse on the grounds on which the reformation proceeded and therefore since he had before named some of the most considerable he desired we might discourse about some of these M. C. said Name any thing in the Roman Church that is expresly contrary to Scriptures but bring not your expositions of Scripture to prove it by for we will not admit of these M. B. asked if they did not acknowledge that it was only by the mediation of Christ that our sins were pardoned and eternal life given to us M. C. answered no question of it at all M. B. said Then have we not good reason to depart from that Church that in an office of so great and daily use as was the absolution of penitents after the words of absolution enjoins the following prayer to be used which he read out of their ritual The passion of our Lord Jesus Christ the merits of the blessed Virgin Mary and of all the Saints and whatever good thou hast done or evil thou hast suffered be to thee for the remission of sins the encrease of Grace and the reward of eternal life from whence it plainly follows that their Church ascribes the pardon of all sins and the eternal Salvation of their penitents to the merits of the blessed Virgin and the Saints as well as the passion of our blessed Saviour M. C. said Here was a very severe charge put in against their Church without any reason for they believed that our sins are pardoned and our Souls are saved only by the merits of Jesus Christ but that several things may concur in several orders or wayes to produce the same effects So although we are pardoned and saved only through Christ yet without Holiness we shall never see God we must also suffer whatever crosses he tries us with So that these in another sense procure the pardon of our sins and eternal Salvation Thus in like manner the prayers of the blessed Virgin and the Saints are great helps to our obtaining these therefore though these be all joined together in the same prayer yet it was an unjust charge on their Church to say they make them equal in their value or efficiency M. B. said The thing he had chiefly
abundance of his Grace on your Ladiship to make you still continue in the love and obedience of the Truth is the earnest Prayer of MADAM London Apr. 15. 1676. Your Ladiship 's most Humble Servants Edward Stillingfleet Gilbert Burnet A Discourse To shew How unreasonable it is To ask for Express Words of Scripture in proving all Articles of Faith And that a just and good Consequence from Scripture is sufficient IT will seem a very needless labour to all considering persons to go about the exposing and baffling so unreasonable and ill-grounded a pretence That whatever is not read in Scripture is not to be held an Article of Faith For in making good this Assertion they must either fasten their proofs on some other ground or on the words of our Article which are these Holy Scripture containeth all things necessary to salvation So that whatsoever is not read therein nor may be proved thereby is not to be required of any man that it should be believed as an Article of Faith or be thought requisite or necessary to salvation Now it is such an affront to every mans eyes and understanding to infer from these words That all our Articles must be read in Scripture that we are confident every man will cry Shame on any that will pretend to fasten on our Church any such obligation from them If these unlucky words Nor may be proved thereby could be but dashed out it were a won cause But we desire to know what they think can be meant by these words or what else can they signifie but that there may be Articles of Faith which though they be not read in Scripture yet are proved by it There be some Propositions so equivalent to others that they are but the same thing said in several words and these though not read in Scripture yet are contained in it since wheresoever the one is read the other must necessarily be understood Other Propositions there are which are a necessary result either from two places of Scripture which joined together yeild a third as a necessary issue according to that eternal Rule of Reason and Natural Logick That wherever two things agree in any Third they must also agree among Themselves There be also other Propositions that arise out of one single place of Scripture by a natural deduction as if Jesus Christ be proved from any place of Scripture the Creator of the world or that He is to be worshipped with the same Adoration that is due to the Great God then it necessarily follows that He is the Great God because He does the Works and receives the Worship of the Great God So it is plain that our Church by these words Nor may be proved thereby has so declared Her self in this point that it is either very great want of consideration or shameless impudence to draw any such thing from our Articles But we being informed that by this little art as shuffling and bare so ever as it must appear to a just discerner many have been disordered and some prevailed on We shall so open and expose it that we hope it shall appear so poor and trifling that every body must be ashamed of it It hath already shewed it self in France and Germany and the Novelty of it took with many till it came to be canvassed and then it was found so weak that it was universally cried down and hissed off the stage But now that such decried wares will go off no-where those that deal in them try if they can vent them in this Nation It might be imagined that of all persons in the world they should be the furthest from pressing us to reject all Articles of Faith that are not read in Scripture since whenever that is received as a Maxim The Infallibility of their Church the Authority of Tradition the Supremacy of Rome the Worship of Saints with a great many more must be cast out It is unreasonable enough for those who have cursed and excommunicated us because we reject these Doctrines which are not so much as pretended to be read in Scripture to impose on us the Reading all our Articles in these Holy Writings But it is impudent to hear persons speak thus who have against the express and formal words of Scripture set up the making and worshipping of Images and these not only of Saints though that be bad enough but of the Blessed Trinity the praying in an unknown tongue and the taking the Chalice from the people Certainly this plea in such mens mouths is not to be reconciled to the most common rules of decency and discretion What shall we then conclude of men that would impose rules on us that neither themselves submit to nor are we obliged to receive by any Doctrine or Article of our Church But to give this their Plea its full strength and advantage that upon a fair hearing all may justly conclude its unreasonableness we shall first set down all can be said for it In the Principles of Protestants the Scriptures are the rule by which all Controversies must be judged now they having no certain way to direct them in the exposition of them neither Tradition nor the Definition of the Curch Either they must pretend they are Infallible in their Deductions or we have no reason to make any account of them as being Fallible and Vncertain and so they can never secure us from error nor be a just ground to found our Faith of any Proposition so proved upon Therefore no Proposition thus proved can be acknowledged an Article of Faith This is the bredth and length of their Plea which we shall now examine And first if there be any strength in this Plea it will conclude against our submitting to the express words of Scripture as forcibly Since all words how formal soever are capable of several expositions Either they are to be understood literally or figuratively either they are to be understood positively or interrogatively With a great many other varieties of which all expressions are capable So that if the former Argument have any force since every place is capable of several meanings except we be infallibly sure which is the true meaning we ought by the same parity of Reason to make no account of the most express and formal words of Scripture from which it is apparent that what noise soever these men make of express words of Scripture yet if they be true to their own argument they will as little submit to these as to deductions from Scripture Since they have the same reason to question the true meaning of a place that they have to reject an inference and deduction from it And this alone may serve to satisfy every body that this is a trick under which there lies no fair dealing at all But to answer the Argument to all mens satisfaction we must consider the nature of the Soul which is a reasonable being whose chief faculty is to discern the connexion of things and to draw
life brings over the greatest minds when there is no hope of getting from under it is to take them off from study and learning and indeed to subdue their Spirits as well as their Bodies And so it proved for after that an ignorance and dulness did to that degree overspread all Europe that it is scarce to be expressed I do not deny but there might be some few Instances of considerable Men giving an allowance for the time they lived in For the Laity they were bred up to think of nothing but to handle their Arms very few could so much as read and the Clergy were not much better read they could but in many that was all a corrupt Latin they understood which continued to be the vulgar Tongue in Italy a great while after They had heard of Greek and Hebrew but understood them as little as we do the Mexican or Peruvian Tongue They had scarce any knowledge of the Greek Fathers a few very ill Translations of some of them was all they had The Latin Fathers were read by some of the more learned but for any distinct understanding of Scriptures or the natures of things God knows they had it not I design a short Discourse and therefore shall not stay to make this out which every Body that has but looked a little on the Writings of these Ages knows to be true Another Effect of their Ignorance was that they were easily imposed on by supposititious Writings that went under the Names of the Fathers but were none of theirs Gelasius threw out a great many that were breaking out in his time but the Trade was prosperous and went on to that height that it cost the Criticks of these two last Ages much pains to distinguish true from forged and the genuine from what was interpolated And indeed the Popes were much beholden to the forgery of the Decretal Epistles in which Work a great many Epistles were published by Isidore in the eighth Century as the Epistles of the Popes of the first four Centuries after Christ By which they were represented as giving orders and making definitions over the whole Church in a full form and with the stile of an absolute Authority These were rejected by many but mightily supported by all the Flatterers of the Court of Rome So that they were in the end after some contest generally received and held Presidents to the succeeding Popes who wrote very skilfully after that Copy Many other Forgeries were also much cherished which I shall instance only in one other particular that relates to what is now in my eye A Sermon of Arnold of Bonneval which is now proved clearly to be his was published in St. Cyprian's Works as his Sermon of the Supper of our Lord though this Arnold lived about nine hundred years after him Now such a Sermon being generally read as St. Cyprian's no wonder it gave that Doctrine of Transubstantiation great credit These Writings are now discovered to be such forgeries that all considering Men of their own Church are ashamed of them and disown them So do Baronius and Bellarmin the Decretals and Sirmondus Launnoy and many more reject other forgeries Yet here is a high pitch of Impudence that most of all their Writers of Controversie are guilty of to cite these very Writings which are now universally agreed to be spurious still under those great Names which forgery gave them As the Author of that Letter about Transubstantiation cites a passage from St. Cyprian's Sermon De Coena Domini though it is agreed to by Sixtus Senensis Possevin Bellarmin Raynaud and Labbe to be none of his and the Publishers of the Office of the Sacrament in the Table at the end of it acknowledge it was written by Arnold of Bonneval a Friend of St. Bernard's After these Authorities it is indeed strange that such sophisticated stuff should be over and over again offered to us And it was no wonder such forgeries were generally received when that Church gave them such Authority as to take many Lessons out of the most spurious Legends and put them in their Breviary Of all these dark Ages the tenth was certainly the midnight of the Church We have scarce any Writer for that whole Age so that it is generally called the Iron Age an Age of Darkness and Wickedness and therefore a very fit time for Superstition and Errour to work in And thence we may well infer that in Ages that were so exceeding ignorant and in which Men scarce thought of Religion it was no hard thing to get any Errour received and established But this is not all These were also Ages of great licentiousness and disorder for though the barbarous Nations were afterwards converted to the orthodox Faith though by the way it were easie to shew these Conversions had nothing like the first Conversion of the World to Christianity in them yet their Barbarity remained with them and the Churchmen became so corrupt and vicious that they could not have a face to reprove them for those Vices of which themselves were scandalously guilty From the Sixth Century downward what a race of Men have the Popes been chiefly in the Ninth and Tenth Century And indeed any Religion that remained in the World had so retired into Cloysters and Monasteries that very little of it remained These Houses were Seminaries of some Devotion while they were poor and busied at work according to their first foundation but when they were well endowed and became rich they grew a scandal to all Christendom All the primitive Discipline was laid down Children were put into the highest Preferments of the Church and Simony over-run the Church These are matters of fact that cannot be so much as questioned nor should I if put to prove them seek Authorities for them any where else than in Baronius who for all his design to serve the Interest of that Church yet could not prevaricate so far as to conceal things that are so openly and uncontestedly true Now from the Darkness and Corruption of these Ages I presume to offer some things to the Readers consideration First Ignorance alwayes inclines people to be very easie to trust those in whom they have confidence for being either unwilling to trouble themselves with painful and sollicitous enquiries or unable to make them they take things on trust without any care to search into them But this general Maxim must needs be much more certain when subjection to the Church and the belief of every thing established was made a very substantial part of Religion or rather that alone which might compense all other defects Secondly Ignorance naturally inclines people to Superstition to be soon wrought on and easily amused to be full of fears and easie to submit to any thing that may any way overcome these fears A right sense of God and Divine Matters makes one have such a taste of Religion that he is not at all subject to this distemper or rather Monster begotten by the unnatural