booke and read the place The which after I had read I sayd it made nothing against me but against the Arriās and other heretiks against whom Ireneus wrote prouīg that they weare not to be credityd because they did teache and folowe after straunge doctrine in Europa that the chefe churche of the same was founded by Peter and Paule and had to his tyme continued by faythfull succession of the faythfull Bishops in preachyng the true Gospel as they had receyued it of the Apostles and nothyng lyfe to the late sprong heretikes c. Wherby he cōcludeth against thē that they were not to be heard neyther to be credited The which thing yf you my lordes be able to proue nowe of the churche of Rome then had you as good autoritie against me in my cause nowe as Ireneus had against those heretikes But the church of Rome hath swarued frō that truthe and simplicitie of the Gospell which it maintained in Ireneus tyme and was vncorrupted frō that which it is nowe Wherfore your lordships can not iustly applie the autoritie of Ireneus to the churche of Rome nowe which is so manifestlye corrupted from the primatiue Churche London So wil you say stil it maketh nothing for the purpose what so euer autoritie we bring and wil neuer be satisfyed Phil. My lorde when I do by iust reason proue that the autorities which be brought against me do not make to the purpose as I haue already proued I trust you wil receyue myne answere worcest It is to be proued most manifestly by al auncient wryters that the sea of Rome hath alwayes folowed the truthe and neuer was deceyued vntil of late certayne heretikes had defaced the same Phil. Let that be proued I haue done worcest Nay you are of suche arrogācie singularitie vayne glorie that you wil not se it be it neuer so wel proued Phil. Ha my lordes is it nowe tyme thynke you for me to folowe singularitie or vaynglorie synce it is nowe vpō daunger of my lyfe and death not onlye presently but also before God to come and I knowe yf I dye not in the true faythe I shall dye euerlastingly again I knowe yf I do not as you would haue me you will kyll me and many thousandes moo Yet had I leuer perishe at your handes than to perishe eternally And at this tyme I haue lost al my cōmodities of this worlde and nowe lye in a colhouse where a man would not laye a dogge with the which I am wel contented Cole Where are you hable to proue that the churche of Rome hath erred at any tyme and by what historie certaine it is by Eusebius that the churche was stablyshed at Rome by Peter and Paule and that Peter was Bisshop .xxv. yeres at Rome Phil. I knowe wel that Eusebius so wryteth but yf we compare that which S. Paule writeth to the Galathiās the first it wil manifestly appere the cōtrarie that he was not halfe so long there He lyued not past .xxxv. yeares after he was called to be an Apostle And Paul maketh mencion of his abidyng after Christes death more then .xviij. yeres Colle What did Peter wryte vnto the Galathians Phil. No I saye Paule maketh mencion of Peter wrytyng to the Galathians of his abiding And further I am hable to proue bothe by Eusebius and other historiographers that the church of Rome hath manifestly erred and at this present doth erre because she agreeth not with that which they wrote The primatiue churche dyd vse according to the Gospel And ther nedeth none other profe but cōpare the one with the other London Hearke my lordes wise parabable I maye compare this man to a certayne man I reade of which fell into a disperation and went into a wood to hang him selfe And when he came there he went vewyng of euery tree and could fynde none on the which he myght vouchesaffe to hang himselfe But I wil not applie it as I myght I praye you maister doctor go forth with him Nother you nor they are hable in this case Colle My lorde there be on euery syde on me that be better hable to answer him And I loue not to falle in disputacion for that nowe a dayes a man shall but sustayne shame and obloquy therby of the people I had leuer shewe my mynde in wrytyng Phil. And I had leuer that you should so do then otherwyse For thē a mā may better iudge of your wordes then by argument And I beseche you so doo But yf I were a ryche man I durst wager an hundreth poundes that you shal not be hable to shewe that you haue sayd to be decreed by a general coūsel in Athanasius tyme. For this I am sure of that it was concluded by a general counsel in Affrica many yeres after that none of Affrica vnder payne of excōmunication should apeale to Rome the which decre I am suer they would not haue made yf by the scriptures it had bene by an vniuersall counsell that all men should abyde and folowe the determinacion of the churche of Rome Colle But I can shewe that they reuoked that errour agayne Phil. So you saye maister doctour But I pray you shewe me where I haue hetherto heard nothing of you for my contentation but bare wordes without any autoritie London What I praye you ought we to dispute wyth you of our fayth Iustinian in the lawe hath a tytle De fide catholica to the contrarie Phil. I am certayne the ciuil lawe hath suche a constitucion but our fayth must not depende vpon the ciuil lawe For as S. Ambrose sayeth Non lex sed fides congregauit Ecclesiam Not the lawe but the gospel sayeth he hath gathered the church together worcest Maister Philpot you haue the spirite of pryde wherwith ye be ledde which wil not let you yelde to the truth Leaue it for shame Phil. Sir I am suer I haue the spirite of fayth by the which I speake at this present Neither am I ashamed to stand in my fayth Glocest What do you thynke yourselfe better learned then so many notable learned men as be here Phil. Elyas alone had the truthe whē there were foure hundreth priestes against him worcest Oh you would be coūted now for Helyas And yet I tel thee he was deceiued For he thought ther had ben none good but him selfe and yet he was deceyued for ther was .vii. hundreth besydes hym Phil. Yea but he was not deceyued in doctrine as the other .vii. hūdreth were worc By my fayth you are greatly to blame that you can not be content to be of the churche which euer hath ben of that faythful antiquitie Phil. My lorde I knowe Rome haue ben there where I sawe your lordship worc In dede I dyd flye from hence thither And I remember not that I sawe you there But I am sorye that you haue ben there for the wyckednes whych you haue sene there peraduēture causeth you to
mater you now stāde vpō Morgan M. Christoforson hath shewed M. Philpot a notable place for the authoritie of the churche of Rome and he maketh nothing of it London Where is the place let me se by my fayth here is a place alone Come hither sir what say you to this Nay tary a lytle I will helpe this place with S. Paules owne testimony the first to the Romaynes where he sayeth that their fayth is preached through out the worlde how can you be hable to answere to this Phil. Yes my lorde it is sone answered if you well consider all the wordes of Ciprian for he speaketh of suche as in his tyme were faythfull at Rome that folowed the doctrine of S Paul as he had taught them and as it was notyfied throughout the world by an epistle which he had written in the commēdation of theyr fayth With such as are praysed of S. Paull at Rome for foloing the true fayth mysbelefe can haue no place And now if you can shew that the fayth which the church of Rome holdeth is that fayth which the Apostle praysed and alowed in the Romains in his tyme then wil I saye with S. Cyprian and with you that infidelitie can haue no place there but otherwyse it maketh not absolutely for the authoritie of the church of R. as you do mistake it Christo You vnderstande Cyprian wel in dede I thynke you neuer red hym in your lyfe Phil. Yes M. S. that I haue I can shewe you a boke noted with myne owne hande though I haue nor red so muche as you yet I haue red somwhat It is shame for you to wrast and wryth the doctors as you do to mayntaine a false religiō which be altogether against you yf you take them aright yf your false packing of the doctors together hath geuen me and others occasion to loke vpon them wherby we fynd you shamfull lyars and mysreporters of the auncyent doctors Morgan What wil you be in hāde to alow doctors now they of your sect do not so I maruel therfore you wil alowe them Phil. I do alowe them in asmuche as they do agre with the scriptures so do al they which be of the truthe how so euer you terme vs I praise God for the good vnderstanding I haue receaued by thē Christo What you vnderstande not the doctors you may be ashamed to say it Phil. I thanke God I vnderstāde thē better thē you For you haue excoecationem cordis the blindnes of hart so that you vnderstande not truely what you read no more thē the wal here as the taking of Cipriā doth wel declare And afore god you are but deceauers of the people for al your brag you make of learning neither haue ye scripture or auncient doctor on your syde beyng truely taken Chriho Why al the doctors be on our syde against you altogether Phil. Yea so you say when ye be in your pulpits alone and none to answer you But yf you wil come to cast accōptes with me therof I wil ventre with you a recanraciō that I as lytle syght as I haue in the doctors wil bring more authorities of aunciēt doctors on my syde thē you shal be able for yours he that cā bring most to him let the other syde yeld Are you cōtent here with Christo It is but foly to reasō with you you wil beleue no mā but your selfe phil I wil beleue you or any other learned mā yf you cā bring any thing worthy to be beleued You cā not winne me with vayne wordes frō my faythe Before God ther is no truth in you Mor. what no truth no truth ha ha he Phil. Except the articles of the Trinitie you are corrupt in al other thīges are soūd in nothing Morg. What say you do we not beleue wel on the sacrament Phil It is the thing which among all other you do most abuse Mor. Wherin I pray you tel vs Phil. I haue tolde you before this M. S. in the cōuocaciō house Mor. Yea mary in dede you told vs there very well for there you fell downe vpon your knees fell to weping ha ha ha phil I dyd wepe in dede so dyd Christ vpon Ierusalem am not to be blamed therfore yf you cōsyder the cause of my weping Mor. What make you your selfe Christ ha ha ha Phil. No syr I make not my selfe Christ but I am not ashamed to do as my M. saueour did to bewaile lament your infydelytie and idolatry which I there forsawe through tyrannye you would bring agayne to this realme as this daye doth declare Morgan That is your argument Christo Wherin do we abuse the sacrament tel vs Pihl. As I may touche but one of the least abuses you minister it not in both kyndes as you ought to do but kepe the one halfe frō the people cōtrary to Christes institution Chri. why is ther not asmuch cōtained in one kind as in bothe and what nede is it then to minister it in bothe kindes phil I beleue not so for yf it had Christ would haue geuen but the one kinde only for he instituted nothīg superfluous and therfore you cannot say that the hole effect of the sacrament is aswell in one find as in both synce the scripture reacheth otherwise Christofor What if I can proue it by scripture that we may minister it in one kinde the Apostles dyd so as it may appeare in the Actes of the Apostles in one or two places where it is written that the Apostles contynued in orationibus fractione panis in prayers and in breaking of bread which is ment of the sacrament Phil. Why master doctor do you not knowe that S. Luke by making mentiō of the breaking of breade meaneth the hole vse of the sacrament according to Christes institution by a figure which you haue learned in gramer metinomia where part is mentioned and the hole vnderstanded to be done as Christ commaunded it Christofor Nay that is not so For I can shewe out of Eusebius in Ecclesi historia that ther was a man of God whom he named that sent the sacrament in one kind by a boy to one that was sicke Phil. I haue red in dede that they dyd vse to gyue that was left of the communion bread to children to maryners to women and so perauenture the boy might cary a piece of that was left to the sycke man Christofor Nay as a sacrament it was purposely sent vnto him Phil. Yf it were so yet can you not precysely say that he had not the cup ministred vnto him also by some other sent vnto him but what though one mā did vse it thus dothe it folow that al men may do the like S. Ciprian noteth many abuses of the sacrament in his time which rose vpō singular mens exāples as vsing of water in stede of wine therfore he sayeth Non respiciendum quid aliquis ante nos fecerit sed quid
abstractes of the scriptures and doctors Phil. What so euer you do make them they are no ground of my fayth by the which I ought to be Iudged London I must nedes procede against the to morowe Phil. Yf your lordship so do I wil haue Excepcionem fori for you are not my competent iudge London By what lawe canst thou refuse me to be thy iudge Phil. By the Ciuile lawe De coÌ„petente Iudice London There is no suche tytle in the lawe In what boke is it as connyng a lawer as you be Phil. My lorde I take vpoÌ„ me no great connyng in the lawe but you dryue me to my shyftes for my defence And I am sure yf I had the bokes of the lawe I were able to shewe what I saye London What De competente Iudice I wil go fet thee my bokes There is a tytle in dede De officijs Iudicis ordinarij phil Verely that is the same Competente Iudice which I haue alleged With that he ranne to his studye end brought the hole course of the lawe betwene his haÌ„des which as it myght appeare he had wel occupied by the dust they were enbrued withal London There be the bokes fynde it out yf thou canst and I wyl promyse thee to release thee out of pryson phil My lorde I staÌ„de not here to reason maters of the Ciuile lawe althoughe I am not altogher ignoraunt of the same for that I haue ben a student in the same sixe or seuen yeres but to answere to the articles of fayth with the which you maye lawfully burthen me And where as you go about vnlawfully to procede I chalenge according to my knowlege the benefyte of the lawe in my defence London Why thou wilt answere directly to nothyng thou art charged with al. Therfore saye not herafter but you myght haue ben satisfyed here by learned men yf you would haue declared your mynde phil My lorde I haue declared my mynde vnto you and to other of the bysshops at my last beyng before you desyring you to be satisfied but of one thing wherunto I haue referred al other controuersies the which yf your lordships nowe or other learned men can symply resolue me of I am as contented to be reformable in al thinges as you shal require the whych is to proue that the churche of Rome wherof you are is the catholyke churche Couentrie Why do you not beleue your Crede Credo ecclesiam catholicam phil Yes that I do but I can not vnderstande Rome wherwith al you now burden vs to be the same neither lyke to it S. Asse It is most euident that S. Peter dyd buylde the catholyke churche at Rome And Christ sayd Tites Petrus super hanc petrant edificabo ecclesiam meam Moreouer the succession of byshops in the sea of Rome can be proued from tyme to tyme as it caÌ„ be of none other place so wel which is a manifest probacion of the catholike church as dyuerse doctours do wryte Phil. That you would haue to be vndoubted is moste vncertaine and that by the autoritie which you allege of Christ sayeng vnto Peter Thou art Peter and vpon this rocke I wyll buylde my churche Marcke wel onles you caÌ„ proue the rock to signifye Rome as you would make me falsly beleue And although you can proue the succession of bishops from Peter yet this is not sufficieÌ„t to proue Rome to be the catholike church onles you can proue the successioÌ„ of Peters fayth whervpon the catholyke church is buylded to haue coÌ„tinued in his successours at Rome at this present to remayne London Is ther any mo churches theÌ„ one catholike churche and I pray you tel me into what fayth were you baptized Phil. I acknowledge one holye catholyke and Apostolyck churche wherof I am a membre I prayse God I am of that catholike fayth of Christ wherinto I was baptised Couentre I praye you can you tel what this worde catholyke doth signifie shewe yf you can Phil. Yes that I can I thanke God The catholyke faythe or the catholyke churche is not as nowe a dayes the people be taught to be that which is moste vniuersal or of moste part of men receyued wherby you do inferre our fayth to hang vpon the multitude which is not so But I esteme the catholyke fayth and the catholike churche to be as S. Austen defineth the same Estimamus fidem catholicam a rebus praeteritis praesentibus futuris We iudge sayth he the catholike fayth of that which hath ben is and shal be So that yf you can be hable to proue that your fayth and churche hath ben from the beginning taught and is and shal be then maye you count your selues catholikes otherwyse not And catholike is a Greke worde compounded of cata which signifieth after or according and holon a sumÌ„ or principle or hole So that catholike church or catholike fayth is as muche to saye the fyrst hole souÌ„de or chiefest fayth London Doth S. Austen saye so as he alledgeth it or dothe he meane thus as he taketh the same howe saye you maister Curtoppe Curtop In dede my lorde S. Austen hath suche a sayeng speaking against the Donatistes that the catholike faythe ought to be estemed of thinges in tymes past and as they are practised according to the same And ought to be through al ages not after a new maner as the Donatistes begaÌ„ to ê“fesse phil You haue sayd wel M. Currop after the meaning of S. Austen And do coÌ„firme that which I haue sayd for the significacion of catholike Couentre Let the boke be sene my lord London I praye you my lorde be content or in good fayth I will breake euen of let all alone Do you thinke the catholyke church vntil it was with in these fewe yeres in the which a few vpon singularitie haue swarued from the same hath erred phil I do not thynke that the catholike churche can erre in doctrine but I require to proue the churche of Rome to be thys catholike churche Curtop I can proue that Ireneus which was within an hundreth yeares after Christ came to Victor then bishop of Rome wisely Curtop to aske his aduise about the excommunicatioÌ„ of certayne heretikes the which he would not haue done by al lykelyhode yf he had not taken him to be supreme head Couentre Marke wel this argument Howe are you able to answere to the same Answere yf you can phil It is sone answered my lorde for that it is of no force neither this facte of Ireneus proueth nomore for the supremacie of the bishop of Rome theÌ„ myne hath done which haue ben at Rome as wel as he and myght haue spoken with the Pope yf I had list and yet I would none in Englande dyd fauour his supremacie more then I. S. Asse You are the more to blame by my fayth of my bodye for that you fauour the same no better Your othe is as great as if a
dog sware by his christendom sence al the catholyke churche vntil these fewe yeares haue taken hym to be supreme head of the churche besydes this good man Ireneus Phil. That is not lykely that Ireneus so toke him or the primatiue churche For I am hable to shewe seuen general coūsels after Ireneus time wherin he was neuer so taken which maye be a sufficient profe that the catholike primatiue churche neuer toke hym for supreme head The other Bis This man wil neuer be satisfyed saye what we can It is but folly to reason any more with him Phil. Oh my lordes would you haue me satisfyed with nothing Iudge I praye you who of vs hath better autoritie he which bringeth the exāple of one man goyng to Rome or I that by these many general councelles am hable to proue that he was neuer so taken in many hūdreth yeres after Christ as by Nicene Ephesyne the fyrst and the second Calcedonen̄ Constantinopolitane Carthaginen̄ Auilien̄ Couentre Why wil ye not admit the churche of Rome to be the Catholyke churche phil Bicause it foloweth not the primatiue catholyke churche neyther agreeth with the same no more then an apple is lyke a nutte Couentre Wherin doth it discent Phil. Yt were to long to recite all but two thinge I wil name the supremacie and transubstāciation Curtop As for transubstantiation albeyt yt was set furth and decreed for an article of fayth not muche aboue thre hūdreth yeres yet yt was alwayes beleued in the churche London Yea that it was very well sayd of you master Curtoppe phil Ye haue sayd right that transubstanciation is but a late plantacion of the bishop of Rome and you are not hable to shew any auncient wryter that the primatiue churche did beleue any suche thinges And with this Curtop shranke awaye And immediatly after the ambassadoure of spayne cam in To whom my lord of London went leauing the other with me To whō I said my lordes yf you can shewe me that this churche of Rome wherof you are membres is the true chatolik churche I shal be content to be one therof And as conformable to the same as you can require me in all thīges For I knowe ther is no saluacion but within the churche Couentre Can you disproue that the churche of Rome is not the catholike churche phil Yea that I am hable but I desire rather to heare of you for the profe therof And seyng I can not haue my request at your handes neyther be satisfied with any probable auctoritie I wil shewe yowe good profe why it is not the catholike churche as it was in deade and owght to be the forme and scolemaistres of the churche to the worldes ende than is not the churche of Rome nowe the catholike churche which dissenteth so farre from the same bothe in doctrine and vse of the sacramentes Couentre Howe proue you that the churche of Rome nowe dissenteth in doctrine and vse of the sacramentes from the primatiue church Phil. Compare the one with the other yt wil sone appeare as you maye see both in Eusebius and in other Ecclesiasticall and auncient writers Couentre What haue you to saye more why it is not the catholike churche Phil. Because it is not by your owne interpretacion of the catholike vniuersall neyther neuer was albeyt you falsely persuade the people that it is soo For the world being diuided in three partes Asia Affrica Europa twoo parts therof Asia and Affrica professīg Christ as well as we did neuer consēt to the church of Rome which is of Europa which is a sufficient testimonie that your faith was neuer vniuersall Couentre How proue you that Phil. All the historiographers which write of the procedinges of the churche do testifie the same Besides that this present tyme doth declare that to be true which I saye For at this present the churche of Asia and Affrica do not consent to the churche of Rome Yea and besides al this the most part of Europa doth not agre neyther alowe the churche of Rome As Germanie the kingdome of Denmarcke the kingdome of Poole a great part of Fraūce England and Zealande which is a manifest probacion that your churche is not vniuersall And after this the bishop of London called awaye the other bishops left with me diuers gentlemen with certayne of his chaplaynes as doctor Sauerson an englisheman which had proceded doctor in Bonnony who after began with me in this maner D. sauer Master Philpot I remembre you beyonde the sea synce the tyme you reasoned with a fryer a notable learned man comming from Venece to Padua in a barge Phil. I can not forgett that for the fryer thretned me to accuse me of heresye as sone as he cam to Padua for that I talked with him so boldly of the truth He was no suche learned man as you name hym to be but onlye in his scoole poynts a good purgatorie frier D. sauer Well he was a learned man for all that And I am sorye to heare that you this daye hauing communed with so many notable learned men are no more conformable to them than you be Phil. I wil be conformable to all them that be conformable to Christ in his worde And I praye you good master Doctor be not soo cōformable to please men more than God contrarie to your learnīg for worldly estimaciōs sake D. sauer No that I am not vpon what occasiō should you thinke thus of me Phil. Vpō no euil that I do knowe of you master doctor but I speake as one wishing that you should not be led away frō the truthe for promocions sake as many doctors doo nowe a dayes D. sauer I haue heard your argumētacions hitherto me thinketh that a great many of the olde auncient writers be agaynst you in that you do not alowe the churche of Rome neyther the supremacie For S. Cipriane which is an olde aunciēt writer doth allowe the bishop of Rome to be the supreme head of the churche Phil. That I am sure of he doth not For he writing vnto Cornelius then bishop of Rome calleth hym but his cōpanyon and felowe bishop neither attributed to hym the name eyther of Pope or elles of any other vsurped termes which now be ascribed to the bishop of Rome to the setting forth of his dignitie Sauer You can not be hable to shewe that S. Ciprian calleth Cornelius his felow bishop Phil. I wil wager with you that I am hable to make that I can shewe it you in Ciprian as I haue sayd Sauer I wil lay non other wager with you but booke for booke it is not so Phil. I agre therto and I pray you one of my lordes chaplaynes to set vs Cipriane hyther for the triall herof And with that one of thē went to my lordes studie brought furth Cipriā And by by he turned to the fyrst booke of his epistles the .4 epistle and there woulde haue semed to haue gathered a strong
Ye as that I am London Your godfathers and godmothers were of an other fayth then you be nowe Phil. I was not baptised neither into my godfathers faith nor my godmothers but into the fayth into the churche of Christ London Howe knowe you that Phil. By the worde of God which is the touche stone of faythe and the lymites of the churche London Howe long hath your churche stande I praye you Phil. Euen from the beginning froÌ„ Christ from his Apostles from theyr immediate successours Chanc. He wil proue his churche to be before Christ phil Yf I dyd so I go not amisse For ther was a church before the coÌ„ming of Christ which maketh one catholike churche Chance It is so in dede phil I wil desyre no better rule theÌ„ that which is ofteÌ„ tymes brought in of your syde to proue both my fayth and church catholike that is antiquitie vniuersalitie and vnitie Lond. Do you not se what a bragging folyshe felowe this is He would seme to be very wel sene in the doctors he is but a fole By what D. art thou able to ê“ue thy church name hiÌ„ thou shalt haue him phil My lorde let me haue al your auncient writers with penne ynke paper I wil proue both my fayth my churche out of euery one of them Lon. No that thou shalt not haue â–ª you shal see howe he lyeth S. CipriaÌ„ sayeth Ye lye my lorde ther must be one high priest to the which the residue must obeye And they wil allowe no head neither vicar general phil S. Ciprian sayeth not that ther should be a vicar general ouer al. For in his boke De simplicitate praelatorum I am sure he sayeth the coÌ„trarie Vnus episcopatus est cuius pars in solidum a singulis tenetur Ther is but one bishoprike which is holly possessed of euery bishop in part London Fet hyther the boke thou shalt se the manyfest place against the. S. Chedsey brought the boke turned to the place in an Epistle written vnto Cornelius then B. of Rome recited these worldes in suÌ„me that it went not well with the church where the hyghe priest was not obeyed And so would haue coÌ„cluded for the confirmacion of the bishops sayeng Phil. M. doct you misconstrue the place of S. CipriaÌ„ for he meaneth not ther by the hygh priest the B. of Rome but euery patriark in his precinct of whom ther were foure apointed in his tyme. And in wrytyng vnto Cornelius he meaneth by the hyghe priest hym selfe which was then chief B. of Affrica whose auctoritie the heretikes began to despice Wherof he complayneth to Cornelius sayeth the churche can not be well ordered where the chief minister by order after the iudgemeÌ„t of the scriptures after the agremeÌ„t of the people and the coÌ„sent of his felow bishops he is not obeyed London Hath not the bishop of Rome alwayes ben supreme head of the churche and Christes vicar in earth euen from Peter Phil. No that he was not For by the word of God he hath no more auctoritie then the bishop of London hath Lon. Was not Peter head of the church and hath not the bishop of Rome which is his successour the same auctoritie Phil. I graunt that the bishop of Rome as he is the successor of Peter hath the same autoritie as Peter had But Peter had no more auctoritie then euery one of the apostles hadde Chaunce Yes that S. Peter had for Christ said specially vnto him Tibi dabo claues regni Coelorum I will gyue thee the keyes of the kingdome of heauen the which he spake to none other of his disciples syngularly but to him phil S. Austyne answereth otherwyse to the obiection sayeth that yf in Peter there had not bene the figure of the churche the Lord had not sayd vnto him to the I will geue the keyes of the kingdome of heauen The which if Peter receyued them not the churche hath them not Yf the churche hath them theÌ„ Peter hath them not London What yf I can proue and shewe you out of the ciuill lawe that all Christendome ought to folowe the holy catholike churche of Rome as there is a speciall tytle therof De catholica fide Sancta Romana ecclesia phil That is nothing material seing the thinges of God be not subiecte to maÌ„s lawes And diuine maters must be ordered by the word of God not of man M. d ee What will you saye yf I can proue that Christ buylded his church vpon Peter and that out of S. Ciprian will you then beleue that the bishop of Rome ought to be supreme head of the churche Phil. I knowe what S. Ciprian writeth in that behalfe But he meaneth nothiÌ„g so as you take it M. d ee S. Ciprian hath these wordes quod super Petrum fundata suit ecclesia tanquam super originem vnitatis That vpon Peter was builded the churche as vpon the fyrst begynning of vnitie Phil. Be declareth that in an example the vnitie must be in the church he grouÌ„ded on Peter his churche alone not vpon men The which he doth more manifestly declare in the booke De simplicitate praelatorum sayeng in persona vnius Christus dedit Dominus omnibus claues vt omnium vtatateÌ„ denotaret In the person of one maÌ„ God gaue the keyes to al that he in significacioÌ„ therby declareth the vnitie of all men M. d ee Howe wil you vnderstand S. Ciprian So that were good in dede Phil. I thinke you can not vnderstande S. Ciprian better then he dothe declare him selfe London I will desire you master chauÌ„celer to take some paynes which master doctor Chadsey master Dee about his examinacion For I must god to the parliament house And I will desire you to tary diner with me phil Then maister Dee toke agayne his former auctoritie in hande for want of an other And would haue made a farther circumstaunce dysgressing from his purpose To whom I sayd he knewe not wherabout he went and here withall he laughed And I sayd his diuinitie was nothing but scoffing M. d ee Yea then I haue done with you And so went awaye phil maister Dee you are to yong in dyuynytie to reach me in the maters of my faythe though you be learned in other thinges more then I yet in diuinitie I haue ben longer pracrysed then you for any thing I can heare of you therfore be not to hastie to iudge that you do not perfectly knowe Chaun Peter and his successours froÌ„ the beginning haue ben allowed for the supreme head of the churche that by the scriptures For that cause Christ said vnto him in S. Iohn thryse feade my shepe pasce oues meas Phil. That is none otherwise to be takeÌ„ theÌ„ Ite predicate goo ye preache which was spoken to al the Apostels as wel as vnto Peter And the Christ said thrise pasce oues meas feade my shepe it signifieth nothing
elles but the earnest studie that the ministers of God ought to haue in preaching the worde God graunt that you of the cleargy would waie your duetie in this behalfe more then you doo Is this a iuste interpretaciō of the scripture to take pasce oues meas for to be lorde of the hole world In this meane while came in an other bacheler of diuinitie which is a reader of Greke in Oxforde belonging to the bishop And he toke vpon him to helpe master chaunceler Scoler What will you say yf I can shewe you a Greke Autor called Theophilacte to interprete it so Will you beleue his interpretacion Phil. Theophilacte is a late wryter and one that was a fauourer of the bishop of Rome and therfore not to be credited synce his interpretacion is cōtrary to the manifest words of the scriptures and contrarie to the determinacion of many general councels Scolar In what generall coūcel was it otherwyse that the bishop of Rome was not supreme head ouer al. Phil. In Nyce counsel I am sure it was otherwyse For Athanasius was there the chief B. and president of the councel and not the bishop of Rome Scolar Nay that is not so phil Then I perceyue you are better sene in wordes then in knowlege of thinges For I wil gage with you what you will it is so As you maye see in the Epitome of the councell Scoler I wil set Eusebius and shewe the contrarie and the boke of general coūcels He went into my lordes closet and brought Eusebius but the general councels he brought not sayeng for sauyng of his honestie that he could not come by them And there woulde haue defended that it was otherwyse in Eusebius but was not hable to shewe the same And so shranke away cōfounded Chan. The church of Rome hath ben alwayes takē for the hole catholike churche therfore I would aduise you to come into the same with vs. You se al the men of this realme do condemne you And why wil you be so singular Phil. I haue sayd and stil do saye that yf you can be hable to proue it vnto me that I wil be of the some But I am sure that the church which you make so much of Note is a false churche and a Synagoge of Satan And you with the learned mē of this realme do persecute the true churche and condempne suche as be ryghteouser then you Chaun Nay the Deuylles daughter Do you heare maister doctor what he sayeth that the churche of Rome is the deuil Chadsey I wishe you did thinke more reuerently of the churche of Rome ▪ What wil you saye yf I can showe you out of S. Austyne in his epistle writtē to Pope Innocentius that the hole generall coūcel of Cartage dyd allowe the churche of Rome to be chefest ouer al other Phil. I am sure you may shewe no suche thyng And with ther he set the boke of S. Austyne and turned to the epistle but he could not proue his allegacion manyfestly Thou falsifiest S. Austyne Chadsey but by coniectures in this wyse Chadsey Here you maye see that the coūcell of Cartage wrytyng to Innocentius the Bishop calleth the sea of Rome the Apostolike sea And besydes this they wryte vnto him certifyeng him of thinges done in the councel for the condemnacion of the Donatistes requiring his approbations in the same Which they would not haue done yf they had not taken the church of Rome for the supreme heade of others And moreouer you maye see howe S. Austyne dothe proue the churche of Rome to be the chatholike church The succession of false bishops and not of Christes faithe by continual successiō of the byshop vntil his tyme which successyon we can proue vntyl our dayes Therfore by the same reason of S. Austine we saye nowe that the churche of Rome is the catholike churche Phil. Maister doctor I haue considered howe you do waye S. Austyne And contrarye to his meanyng and wordes you would infer your false conclusion A false cōclusion indede As cōcerning that it was called by him the Apostolical sea that is not material to proue the churche of Rome nowe to be the catholike churche I wil graunt it now that it is the apostolike sea in respect that Paule and Peter dyd once there preache the Gospel and abode for a certayne season I would you could proue it to be the Apostolical sea of that true religion and synceritie as the Apostle lefte it and dyd teache the same The which yf ye can do you myght boast of Rome as of the Apostolical sea Otherwyse it is now of no more force then yf the Turke at Antioche and at Ierusalem should boast of the Apostolike seas bycause the Apostles once dyd there abyde and founded the churche of Christ And where as by that the hole coūcel of Carthage dyd wryte vnto Pope Innocētius certifieng him of that was done in the generall counsell and willyng him to set his helping hande to the suppressing of the Donatistes as they had done That facte of the councel proueth nothyng the supremacie of the bishop of Rome no more then yf the hole conuocacion house nowe gathered together and agreyng vpō certaine articles myght sende the same to some Bishop that vpon certaine impedimentes is not present willyng him to agree therto and to set them forth in his dioces The whiche facte doth not make any suche bishop of greater auctoritie then the reste bycause his consente is brotherly required And touching the successiō of the bishoppes of Rome brought in by saynt Austine maketh nothyng nowe therby to proue the same the catholike churche onles you can conclude with the same reason as S. Austyne dothe And the rehersall of the succession of the bishops doth tende to this only to proue the donatistes to be heretykes because they beganne aswel at Rome as in Affrica to foūde an other churche then was groūded by Peter and Paule and by their successours whom he reciteth vntil his tyme which all taught no such doctrine neyther no suche church as the Donatistes And yf presently you be hable to proue by the succession of bishops of Rome wherof you do glory that no suche doctrine hathe ben taught by any of the successours of Peters sea as is nowe taught and beleued of vs you haue good reason Agaynst vs. Otherwise it is of no force as I am hable to declare Chaun Well master doctor you se we can do no good in persuadīg of him let vs mynyster the articles which my lord hath left vs vnto him Howe faye you master Philpot to these articles M. Iohnson I pray you write his answeres phil Master chaunceler you haue no autorytye to enquire of me my belefe in such articles as you go about for that I am not of my lorde of Londōs diocese to be brefe with you I will make no further answere herin then I haue already to the bishop Chaun Why then let vs go our
haue the peace of mynde which can not be the frutes of heresye worces We wil byd you fare wel for this tyme. phil After dyner they called for me agayne and demaunded of me whether I ment as I spake before dyner not go from it to whom I answered that I would not go from that I had sayd worces You sayd at my departing from you before dyner that yf we dyd burne you we should burne a catholike mā Wil you be a catholike mā stande to the catholike churche Phil. I wil stande to the true catholike churche worces Wil you stande to the catholike churche of Rome phil Yf you can proue the same to be the catholike churche I wil be one therof worces Dyd not Christ saye vnto Peter and to all his successours of Rome Pasce oues meas pasce agnos meos Fede my shepe fede my lambes which doth signifye that he gaue hym more authoritie than the rest phil That sayeng pertayneth nothing to the autoritie of Petre aboue others but declareth what Christ requireth of his beloued Apostles that they should with all diligence preache to the flocke of Christ the way of saluacion and that doth the iterracion of feding spoken to Petre only signifie But the bishop of Rome lytle regardeth this spiritual feding and therfore he hath ymagined an easyer waye to make him selfe lord of the hole world yea and of Goddes word to and doth not fede Christes flocke as Petre dyd worces Howe can you tell that phil Yes I haue ben there I could not learne of al his contrey men that euer he preacheth worces Though he preached not one way he preacheth an other by procuring good order for the churche to be kepte in phil I am sure that it wil be his damnacion before God that he leaueth that he is commaunded of Christe and setteth furthe his owne decrees to deface the gospel worces It is the euill lyuing that you haue sene at Rome that causeth you to haue this yl iudgement of the church of Rome I can not tary nowe with you to reasō further of this mater Howe say you to the reall presence of the sacrament wil you stand to that Phil. I do acknowledge as I haue sayd a reall presence of the sacrament in the dewe administracion therof to the worthy receauers by the spirite of God wor. You adde now a great meany mo wordes thē you did before yet you say more of the sacrament then a great meany will do Thus they departed After them came in to me D. Chadsey D. wright Archdeacon of Oxforde with a great meany mo MAister Philpot here is maister Archdeacon of Oxforde come to you Chadsey to gyue you good councel I pray you heare him Phil. I will refuse to heare none that will councell me any good and yf any can bring any mater better thā I haue I wil sticke thervnto wright I would wyshe you master Philpot to agre with the catholike church and not to stād in your owne cōceyt you see a great me any of learned men agaynst you phil I am master doctor of the vnfayned catholike churche and will lyue and dye therin and yf you can proue your churche to be the true catholike church I wil be one of the same wright I came not to dispute with you but to exhorte you here be better learned than I that cā enforme you better than I Chadsey Thy hart knoweth that thy mouth lyeth Chad. What profe would you haue I wil proue vnto you our church to haue his being foūdatiō by the scriptures by the Apostles by the primatiue church cōfirmed with the bloud of martirs and the testymony of al confessours phil Gyue me your hand master doctor proue that and haue with you Chadsey If I had my bokes here I could sone proue it I wil go fette som with that he went fette his boke of annotaciōs saieng I cannot bring my bokes wel Therfore I haue brought my boke of annotaciōs And turned ther to a common place of the sacramēt asking me whether the catholike church did not allowe the presēs of Christes body in the sacramēt or no I heare say you do confesse a real presence hangyng is to good for thee but I wil be hanged if you will abide by it you will deny it by and by Phil. That I haue sayd I cannot deny neither intend not what soeuer you say Chadsey If there be a real presence in the sacrament than euill mē receyue Christ which thīg you wil not graūt I am suer Phil I deny the argument For I do not graunt in the sacrament by transubstāciacion any real presence as you falsely ymagyne But in the dewe administration to the worthy receyuers Chadsey I wil proue that the euel wicked men eat the body of Christ as wel as the good men by S. Austine here phil And in the beginning of his text S Austine semed to approue his assertiō but I bad him reade out to the ende and there S Austine declareth that it was quodam modo after a certayn maner the euill men receyued the body of Christ which is sacramētally only in the vtter signes not really or in dede as the good doth And thus al the doctors that you seme to bring in for your purpose be quite against you yf you did vp rightly way them Chad. By God you ar a subtil felow se howe he would wrythe S. Austines wordes phil See who of vs wryeth S. Austine more you or I which take his meanīg by his owne expresse wordes And seing you charge me of subtiltie what subtilty is this of you to say that you wil proue your mater of the churche euen from the begynning promysyng to shew your bokes therin and when it commeth to the shewing you are hable to shewe none and for want of profe slip into a bye mater and yet faynt in the profe therof Afore God you ar bare arst in all your religion Chadsey You shal be constrayned to come to vs at lenght whether you wyl or no. phil Holde that argument fast for that is the best you haue for you haue nothing but violence The thursdaye after I was called in the mornyng before the Archbishop of Yorke the B. of Chichster the B. of Bathe and the B. of London the B. of Chichester beyng fyrst come began to talke wyth me I Am come of good will to talke with you to instructe you what I can to come to the catholyke churche and to will you to mistrust your owne iudgement and to learne fyrste to haue humilite and by the same to learne of others that be better learned thē you as they did learne of suche as were theyr betters before them phil We must be all taught of God and I will with all humilitie learne of them that will enforme me by Goddes word what I haue to do I confesse I haue but lytle learning in respecte of you that both for