is wonderfully preserved and delivered So then this is no Jewish Ceremony but a Christian duty performed not out of Custome but out of Conscience not to make the act of honourable Marriage uncleane but to blesse God for deliverance from so manifold perils Whereupon neither can the vaile be the badge of an Harlot but as new gloves are fit for Marriages and blacks for Funeralls so this an attire for such a time not only decent and grave but also most usefull and convenient to distinguish her from other women And herein the Apostles rule is well observed viz. that All things be done decently and in order Where 's then the Jew or the Harlot that you spake off or the great offence not only to honest women but also to every true Christian man you fight with shaddows I doe assure you and produce the abortive fancies of your own brain which are too weak to endure the touch DIALOGUE Gent. Many do say that the manner of administring the holy Sacrament of Baptisme prescribed in the Service-book is very absurd and full of Popish errours and so ridiculous as they cannot but laugh at it I pray you tell me what doe you finde in it to be so absurd and ridiculous as they cannot but laugh at it Min. The Interrogatories ministred to Infants that have no understanding and the answer of the Godfathers and Godmothers are so absurd and ridiculous as they cannot but laugh at them as first the Minister must examine the Infant and aske him If he doth forsake the Devill and all his works the vaine pompe and glory of the world the covetous desires of the same the carnall desires of the flesh so that he will not follow nor be led by them he must also aske him if he doth believe all the Articles of the Christian Faith and if he will be baptized in that Faith Gent. Were not these Interrogations administred to Infants in the Primitive Church Min. No these or the like were then administred to such as were of years when they were converted and came to be baptized and afterwards commanded by the Pope to be administred to Infants Gent. What answer doth the Godfathers and Godmothers give Min. They give no answer but doe counterfeit the Infants voice as if he were a conjured Ghost speaking within them and answering to the first Interrogation concerning the Devill and all his works the vain pomp and glory of the world the covetous desires of the same and the carnall desires of the flesh that he doth forsake them all and to the second and third concerning the Articles of the Christian Faith that he doth believe them all and that he doth desire to be baptized in that Faith ANSWER Oh how daintily you toy and dally still with the Churches Customes Doe you not hug your selfe for this rare invention of the conjured ghost It must neeeds be admirable to be a man of such a deep conceit and to have such a Spirit within him as can make him expresse himselfe thus pithily Your dull Doctors may hold the blinking candle to you and come hither with shame enough to learne as curious fancies every way or very neare as admirable as what was delivered by you formerly of the Devill and Witch of the Players and the Scoulds in which your master-peece of piety was most apparent and proved to be as impious an expression as any you need to utter But to beate about the bush no longer Your quarrell is now about Interrogatories ministred to Infants and the Answers of the Godfathers and Godmothers a custome you say first brought into the Church by the Pope But by what Pope I wonder The name Pope you know is ancient but in ordinary acceptation sounds harsh and is odious and had never been mentioned thus covertly by you had it not been for the better colouring of your bad cause which indeed you had need varnish over as well as you can If he were a Pope that first appointed this order I must tell you he was a very ancient one one that lived before you or your great Grandfather were borne They that call him by his name use to say that it was * Otherwise written Higinius Higynus Bishop of Rome about the yeare aster Christs birth 150. At which time you know and a great while after Rome was famous for her glorious Martyrs the very Bishops whom you scornfully terme Popes laying down their lives for the faith of Christ You cannot tell how to deny it your face must be more then brazen if you should attempt it nor can you exclude him from among the men of the Primitive times who was flourishing no later Infants as well as elder ones were baptized from the first for to this appertaineth that which is clearly set down in the Scriptures that the Apostles baptized whole houses or families Origen saith Orig. in Epist ad Româ—… viz. in ca 6. That the Church of Christ received of the Apostles themselves baptizing of Infants And Augustine against the Donatists lib 4. c. 23 24. boldly affirmeth That baptizing of Children was not fetch'd from the authority of men or of Councels but from the tradition or doctrine of the Apostles Neither doe I think it a matter easie for any man to prove that ever Baptisme did use to be administred without some kinde of interrogatories or profession of Faith whereunto Saint Peter as the learned think alluding hath said 1 Pet. 3.21 that the Baptisme which saveth us is not as legall Purifications were a clensing of the flesh from outward impurity but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 an interrogative tryall of a good conscience towards God Higynus then might dispose of something in this order in such sort as it hath continued since but not be he that first appointed it whereto is pertinent that which I finde alledged by another namely That the profession of Faith as it appeareth by records Mr. Bedf. treat of the Sacr. pa. 200. was at the first direct and plaine by recitation of the Creed and forms of Confession Afterward it seemeth that for helpe of memory and to provide a remedy against bashfulnesse that which the party repeated was put into questions propounded by the Minister answered briefly as now the forme is by the party And what the Men grown answered by themselves the same did Parents for their Children before the time of Higynus It is the saying of worthy Hooker Eccl. Polit. lib. 5. sect 64. That which a Guardian doth in the name of his Guard or Pupill standeth by naturall equity forcible for his benefit though it be done without his knowledge And shall we saith he judge it a thing unreasonable or in any respect unfit that Infants by words which others utter should though unwittingly yet truly and forcibly binde themselves to that whereby their estate is so assuredly bettered Herewith Nestorius the Heretick was charged as having faln from his first profession and broken the promise
A CONFVTATION OF M. Lewes Hewes HIS DIALOGVE OR AN ANSWER to a DIALOGVE or Conference betweene a Country Gentleman and a Minister of Gods Word about the Booke of COMMON PRAYER Set forth for the Satisfying of those who clamour against the said Booke and maliciously revile them that are serious in the use thereof Whereunto is annexed a Satisfactory Discourse concerning EPISCOPACY and the SVRPLISSE Published by Authority LONDON Printed for I. M. at the George in Fleestreet neere Saint Dunstans Church 1641. M. LEWES HEWES His DIALOGVE ANSVVERED Or An Answer to a Dialogue or Conference betweene a Country Gentleman and a Minister of Gods Word about the Booke of COMMON PRAYER Set forth for the Satisfying of those who clamour against the said Booke and maliciously revile them that are serious in the use thereof Whereunto is annexed a Satisfactory Discourse concerning EPISCOPACY and the SVRPLISSE Published by Authority LONDON Printed for I. M. at the George in Fleestreet neere Saint Dunstans Church 1641. AN ANSWER TO A Dialogue or Conference BETWEENE A Countrey GENTLEMAN AND A MINISTER of GODS Word About the Book of Common PRAYER The DIALOGUE Gent. I Am very glad that I have met with you and did long to speake with you that you might satisfie mee in some things concerning the Booke of Common Prayer therefore I pray you tell mee truly as I hope you will is there any thing in it contrary to Gods Word Min. Yes verily it is full of Popish errours and doth appoint horrible blasphemies and lying fables to bee read to the people in stead of Gods holy Word and hath caused the Church of England to groane under the abominations of the Church of Rome even from the infancie of it in Queene Elizabeths time untill this houre and now there is great hope that a time of refreshing and deliverance is at hand through the blessing of God on this Parliament The ANSVVER If you were not as great a friend to the Brownists as you are an enemie to the Papists you would not thus cast dust in the face of the Church of England and blemish the pietie of those who notwithstanding they died in defence of the truth against Poperie did neverthelesse embrace the Booke of Common Prayer using it to their great comfort commending it to others and sometimes hugging it even in the very flames as in Master Foxes Acts and Monuments may be seene DIALOGUE Gent. I never heard any blasphemy or lying fable read in the Church Minist I thinke so because it may be that you were never in the Church on those dayes wherein they are appointed to bee read Gent. Upon what dayes are they appointed to be read Minist On the fourth of October in the forenoone it appointeth an horrible blasphemy to be read for the first Lesson out of the 12. of Tobie and the 9. verse where it is written that Almes doe save from Death and purge away all sinne which is a maine ground of Poperie and an horrible blasphemie against Christ and his blood that clenseth us from all sin 1 Ioh. 1.7 Also in the 15. verse of that Chapter it is written that there are seven Angels that doe present our prayers which is another horrible blasphemy against Christ who onely doth present our prayers Rev. 8.3,4 Gent. These are horrible blasphemies indeed ANSVVER I hope if you be a Minister as you say you are you cannot but know that those Bookes which are not in the number of the Canonicall Bookes of Scripture are not appointed to be read as the other are For our Church though it be otherwise in the Church of Rome doth not apply them to establish any doctrine as in her sixth Article of Religion she hath proclaimed They are not allowed to thwart any place of holy Scripture but at the best to informe manners and not to confirme faith For though they be in many things clear and correspondent to the holy Scriptures yet this makes them not to be of the same Canonicall authoritie All that S. Hierom saith is this viz. that they be Canonici ad informandos mores non ad confirmandam fidem And S. Austin thus Aug. De Civit. Dei lib. c. 23. Let us saith he omit the Scriptures that are called Apocripha because the old Fathers of whom we had the Scriptures knew not the authors of those workes wherein though there be some trâ—ths yet their multitude of falshoods makes them of no Canonicall Authoritie where by saying Let us omit the Scriptures that are called Apocripha he meanes that they should not bee used for the proving of any Doctrine which cannot bee proved out of the other Scriptures which are the undoubted Word of God Nor bee they but of use likewise for matter of Storie especilly the Bookes of the Machabees which neverthelesse are not to teach a man either to sacrifice for the dead or to kill himselfe The direction therefore which King Iames gave the Clergy in his Conference with them at Hampton Court is altogether a full answer namely that wherein there was any errour hee would not have them read at all wâ— h saying of his must needs be enough to stop this quarrellers mouth and tell him that he makes a stirre without a cause not caring to disturbe the peace of his holy mother which how he can be able to answer let him judge by that which Christ hath charged him with in Cantic 2.7 And thus both by the Articles of our Church the determination of Fathers and the direction of his late Majestie of blessed memorie all moderate and quiet spirits may bee satisfied concerning these bookes Apocrypha both for their gonerall and particular DIALOGUE Gent. I pray you let me heare some of the Fables that are in it Min. On the fourth of October in the afternoone it appointeth a lying fable to be read out of the 11 of Tobie where it is written that Tobie going to the doore to meet his sonne Tobias comming from Rages did stumble and that his sonne ran unto him and laid the gall of a fish to his eyes and that the whitenesse did scale off and hee restored to his sight ANSWER To thinke that this is therefore fabulous because the gall of a fish is said to be used as a medicine for the eyes is more than a wise man will be forward to affirme Vid Llod's Treasury of health Phisitians write that dimb sighted eyes are cured by the gall of a Partridg so also by the gall of a Turtle-dove I have likewise read that the gall of a Cocke mixt with the juyce of Selandine and hony being annointed on the eyes restoreth sight The gall of a Gripe or Ramme is also used in medicine for the same purpose And if the galls of these creatures be thus precious for the eyes why may not the like vertue be in the gall of some fish I have read it of the Tench that his slime is for some things as medicinable as a salve whereupon
Scriptures they give us notice of some who in the latter daies should perish in the gainsaying of Corah as well as of some who should be led with the errour of Balaam for reward See S. Judes Epist vers 11. Look well about you and take heed how you strike an Angel else may chance to stand against you whilest you ride on the beast and be as loath to loose the rewards of your good Masters and Dames as was Balaam to loose the rewards of the King of Moab For the Pope may be Antichrist though Bishops be upheld they were never limbs of that man of Sinne as Bishops but as Popish whilest they swore subjection unto him whilest they defended him whilest they worshipped him above all that is called God and extorted this homage from others But shall they therefore which defie him resist trample upon him spend their lives and labours in opposing of him be necessarily still in the same condition because they are Bishops a foolish argument and he were a senceles man that should subscribe it But shall I tell you there were many Kings and Princes that gave their strength and power to the Beast but are now revolted from him are they not therefore Kings and Princes still Yes sure their calling is not lost they are Kings and Princes still although not Antichristian Kings and Princes England was once termed the Popes Asse but hath long since shaked off that yoak and abolished the Popes tyranny is it not therefore England still Or to speak of what was late The Princes Peers and Magistrates of England in Queen Maries daies were shoulders and armes of Antichrist their calling is still the same and must still be retained notwithstanding then they went the wrong way in it The like is to be said of Bishops in regard of their order which in it selfe is as firm strong and sound as ever notwithstanding what you or any man else may urge to the contrary If you were not a man of faction but would deale fairly in this busines you should not plead for parity or goe about to destroy the government of Gods Church by Bishops but labour to retain the Primitive form which consistteth not in the abolishing of Bishops and striving to make all Pastours equall but in the restoring of Presbyteries by joyning with the Bishops deserving honest and able * See for this Mr. Thorndikes book of the primitive Government of Churches Presbyters not Lay-elders but learned Ministers In a word there is one thing more which before I goe further must be rememhred For you tell us that in the latter end of Queene Elizabeths raigne when she began to be sickly and not like to live long then Doctour Bancroft Lord Bishop of London knowing that King James was to succeed her and fearing that his Majesty would reforme things amisse in the publike worship and service of God and in the Government of the Church did License a Booke written by a Jesuite that he kept in his house wherein it was written that it was in the Popes power as a gift appropriate to Saint Peters chaire to depose the Kings of England and to give authority to the People to elect choose and set up another Whereto I answer that in this you doe but cast durt in the face of the dead For that which you here mention is but what was objected in the Conference at Hampton Court by Doctour Reynolds and openly proved then in presence of his Majesty which you speak of to be but a false aspersion by which the Bishop was injured and standered Wherefore you doe ill to revive it now for the incensing of the people to the more malice who are already too eager to inveigh against Bishops For I verily thinke that never since the times of Christ and his Apostles were Bishops in such hatred nor had in such contempt as now I wonder that they goe not about likewise to cry down a standing Ministrie for personall offenders may as well countenance the abolishing of the one as of the other And indeed it is in a manner come even to that too amongst some furious and fanaticke spitits But the God of Heaven put a right end to these busie stirrs lest all at the last be brought to ruine Let the fiercenesse of those Opposites who cry Downe with them downe with them even to the ground turn to thy praise ô blessed Lord yea the fiercenesse of them who are thus furious doe thou restrain and bring honour to thy name out of this dishonour and good to thy Church out of this evill It is thine owne cause ô God arise therefore and defend it in spight of all that shall oppose it And thus I am come almost to the end of your dowty Dialogue a little more will bring me to it DIALOGUE Gent. There was a little Booke written of late and dedicated to the Mouse of Parliament that had most of these things in it that you have spoken of concerning the Service-booke and the Bishops Min. There was so but the Authour thereof is much grieved every time that he doth thinke upon it because it was dispersed without his consent and printed false by putting in and leaving out of words so as it was not fit to be presented to the House of Parliament ANSWER Great pitty sure to see so worthy a worke defaced especially being intended for the view of the high Court of Parliament But grieve not at it though you sometimes chance to thinke upon it for you make amends for all in this most learned and through-paced Dialogue which is instar omnium and a great deale fitter for the Parliament then that little Booke you speake of Aquila non capit Muscas Parliaments meddle with great matters Let little Bookes therefore goe and thinke your selfe better with this great volume of almost twenty leaves in Quarto which the Parliament when it hath nothing else to doe will read and relish as well as it can This is enough to comfort you you may by no meanes desire more except you had written to better purpose DIALOGUE Gent. It made mention of Judgements c. ANSWER Here you come in with a diâ—course out of your little Booke of some fearefull Judgements shewed on Churches by Thunder and Lightning in Service time and you mention chiefly two the one on the Parish Church of Whitcomb in Devonshire upon the 21 day of October 1638. the other on the Parish Church of Anthony in Cornwell upon Whitsunday 1640. when the people were kneeling at the Communion which fell upon those places to shew that God is not pleased but much offended with the publike Worship and Service which is prescribed unto his holy Majesty in our Service-booke Thus saith your Dialogue pag. 32. 35. and 37. But what saith the Apostle O how unsearchable are Gods Judgements and his wayes past finding out And verily we thank God our Service booke is clearely proved to be of another nature then to offend the diyine