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authority_n	apostle_n	church_n	peter_n	5,721	5	7.6949	4	true

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A93040	The journal of Monsr. de Saint Amour doctor of Sorbonne, containing a full account of all the transactions both in France and at Rome, concerning the five famous propositions controverted between the Jansenists and the Molinists, from the beginning of that affair till the Popes decision. / Faithfully rendred out of French. ; A like display of the Romish state, court, interests, policies, &c. and the mighty influences of the Jesuites in that church, and many other Christian states, being not hitherto extant.; Journal. English	Saint-Amour, Louis-Gorin de, 1619-1687.; Havers, G. (George)	1664 (1664)	Wing S296A; ESTC R225933	1,347,293	723

1646. my time of Licentiate being accomplish'd and the Ceremonies of conferring Degrees deferr'd till after Easter I thought fit to employ that interval of time in a journey to Italy invited thereunto by the company of M. de Souvré Chevalier of the Orders of the King and first Gentleman of his Chamber and of M. the Abbot de Bassompierre now Bishop of Xaintes and of some other persons of quality whom I had the honour to know at Court M. Bourgeois Doctor of Paris and M. Duchesne an antient Professor in Philosophy were then at Rome by Order of my Lords the Bishops who had licenc'd the Book Of Frequent Communion to defend the same against the prosecutions us'd by the Jesuites there to get it censur'd During the short abode I made there M. Bourgeois and M. Duchesne told me the Book Of Frequent Communion was wholly acquitted but the Jesuites had turn'd all their forces against another Book to which That had given occasion namely that Of the Greatnesse of the Roman Church Neverthelesse that they conceiv'd they had so clearly evidenc'd to divers Cardinals the validity of the passages of the said Book which establisheth in the two Princes of the Apostles S. Peter and S. Paul the Authority in question that they believ'd it now out of all danger of Censure In these very termes I inform'd of this matter divers of our Confreres who requested intelligence thereof at my return which was in the moneth of August the same year And in September following having receiv'd the Doctor 's Cap the first time I had the honour to enter into the Assembly of the Faculty which was 1 Octob. 1646. M. Cornet then Syndic acquainted the Faculty that the Nuntio had told him that certain Manuscript Gazettes or Mercuries were come to his hands from Rome which spoke two Doctors there who pretended to be Delegates from the Faculty for the maintaining a Book as Orthodox which undertook to shew That there may be two Heads in the Church Of which he advertis'd the Faculty in regard of their concernment therein and intreated them to declare to him whether they had sent the said Doctors to Rome for the defence of such Book This proposal was made after a manner so odious and captious against the said Book that M. Chastellain who was friend to M. Bourgeois and was satisfy'd of the goodnesse of the Book defended by him at Rome in which also he knew it was not maintain'd That there may be two Heads in the Church conceiv'd that enough would be done both for the Book and for M. Bourgeois if it were declar'd to the Nuntio That no person of the Faculty had so much as heard speech of any Book written to that purpose and accordingly he nominated M. Pereyret and some other Doctors to carry this answer to the Nuntio This disowning of an Imaginary Book was very well pleasing to the enemies of the True Book which M. Bourgeois defended For they saw well it would not be difficult for them to involve the true one in it So this advice was universally assented to though with different ends and aims My turn of suffraging came not till the last but I did not forbear to give some intimation of the ill use I fear'd would be made of this Declaration which when I saw ratifi'd by the Conclusion of the Faculty speaking after the Assembly with the Doctors to whom upon the assurance given by M. Bourgeois and M. Duchesne I had signify'd that I conceiv'd the Book out of danger of Censure I told them that after this Declaration of the Faculty I judg'd the Censure would indubitably follow and believ'd two Moneths would not passe before its appearance Moreover because I saw the reputation of M. Bourgeois and M. Duchesne unjustly impeach'd I gave such a testimony of them in this Assembly as I believ'd I was bound to do being so lately return'd from Rome where I had seen as I assur'd the Assembly that they took not upon themselves the quality of Delegates of the Faculty that all people of honour that knew them look'd upon them as sent by those of my Lords the Prelates of France who had given approbation to the Book Of Frequent Communion and that none but framers of Gazettes or Mercury-mongers could speak otherwise of them However upon that Gazette which came to the Nuntio and from him to the Faculty the Conclusion pass'd M. Pereyret went to visit him according to the commission given him so to do and although he had receiv'd none to leave any thing in writing with the Nuntio yet he declin'd not to give him a Memorial of what he said to him which he drew up as himself pleas'd without communicating any thing thereof to the Faculty The term of publishing the Decree of the Inquisition of Rome which appear'd against the mention'd Book consequently to the Declaration of the Faculty was longer then I imagin'd it would have been for it was deferr'd till the 25th of January the following year 1647. being the very day of the Conversion of St. Paul which I cannot but observe here because I doubt not but it was design'd by the authors of the Decree Some time after this Decree came into France to the Nuntio with command from the Pope to cause it to be printed and sent to the Ordinaries of places by which order and for which purpose it was printed by Sebastian Cramoisy I shall mention no other particulars of this Decree but what are in the Speech of the deceased M. Talon Advocate General whereof and of the Arrest which follow'd it I had a Copy which I shall insert here to preserve the same to posterity though they have been printed since in flying and perishing pamphlets A Speech deliver'd in the Grand Chamber by Mons Omer Talon Advocate General on Friday 10 Maii 1647. Gentlemen VVE receiv'd on Wednesday an order from the Court to make inquiry concerning a Bull printed a few dayes since and a Sentence issued forth by the Provost of Paris on Monday last whereby he hath condemned a small Writing and Book containing one sheet of Paper which Writing is contrary to the authority of the said Bull. Moreover the same day we heard what pass'd in the presence of the Queen touching the same affair where you were pleas'd Sir addressing himself to the first President to expresse the sentiments of the Company and their reasons for opposing the enterprise of the Popes Nuntio who goes about to establish a new Jurisdiction in this Realm After which discourse the Queen having called us and heard from our own mouths something of the particulars of this affair and afterwards conferr'd of it with M. the Cardinal Mazarin M. the Chancellor gave us to understand that there was a difference to be made between a Bull issu'd by authority of the Holy See for the printing and publishing of which there is the King's Privilege and one set forth by the Mandate or Certification of the Nuntio who makes

Court the whole Series thereof if they would vouchsafe me one quarter of an hours audience The Court with great gentlenesse granted it and I made an exact relation of all that had pass'd from the first of July till that time I added to the things which I have spoken above thereof that the number of Religious Mendicants which came to that Assembly beyond what is appointed by the Arrests of Parliament render'd their Deputation invalid and hereof I took M. Hennequin to witnesse who acknowledg'd the same I also made the Court acquainted how the first President had interpos'd to reconcile us and how his interposition prov'd ineffectual for preserving us in peace with our Adversaries because they violated the word which they hah pass'd to him and he had given to us in their behalf I reported the answer which M. Amiot made in the Assembly of the first of September when he was blam'd for that the Supplicate made then by him was contrary to the word which they had given to the first President not to do any thing more concerning this affair Namely how he said That it was true they had promis'd the first President to do nothing but that they had not promis'd to to speak nothing and I ask'd the Court hereupon whether the actions that passe amongst us can consist in any thing else but words and what inducement there could be to rely upon those of people who thus interpreted their own I concluded that to bring us to peace and quiet it was necessary that the Court would please to bind us thereunto by an Arrest and that with lesse then this what ever promises these Gentlemen might make after the experiences we had had of their carriage all full of disguises and artifices we could never be secure thereof but should alwayes be in continual inquietudes and agitations The President said to me How If these Gentlemen promise you faithfully in presence of this Court that they will think no more of what is past and that they will do nothing more for the future Do you fear that they will fail therein I answer'd May it please you Should M. Hennequin passe such a promise to you and did the performance thereof depend upon him we should hold our selves secure because he is a man of integrity and sincere But we have not the same conceipt of these Gentlemen we cannot confide in them The President addressing himself to M. Cornet as'kd him Whether he would endeavour to content us and promise the Court faithfully to remain in quiet touching this affair M. Cornet answer'd in these very words Sir We Promise to make good all that we Promis'd the First President M. le Coigneux reply'd to him also in these very words Ha Gentlemen speak plain French those loose words and General Promises are not Discourses to be held in this Company The Sorbonne hath not the Repute of using Equivocations The involv'd and ambiguous answer of these Doctors who clearly convinc'd the Court of the necessity of the Arrest which I mov'd for gave me the boldnesse to resume and continue my Discourse by beseeching the Court to remember the Arrest which it was mov'd to issue against a Decree that came from the Inquisition of Rome concerning a Book which prov'd the equality of authority in S. Peter and S. Paul I shew'd that that Decree was obtain'd in this manner The Nuntio sent to the Faculty a Roman Gazette which related that there were Doctors of it there who maintain'd That there might be more Heads in the Church desiring the Faculty to tell him whether this were true Upon this proposal M. Pereyret was deputed to go to the Nuntio and tell him that it was not The Nuntio demanded of M. Pereyret his answer in writing who gave him such a one as himself pleas'd without consulting the Faculty about it This writing of M. Pereyret was at Rome made to passe for a Disavowing of the Faculty against the Book concerning the authority of S. Peter and St. Paul and this pretended Disavowing drew after it that Decree of the Inquisition which they durst not have made at Rome before and against which the Court became oblig'd to issue the Arrest which interven'd Now I said it was not to be doubted but that they would make the same use of this pretended Censure which they disown'd not but only as to the publication and not as to the doctrine because they could have wisht that it had been secret to the end it might haue been taken for valid at Rome as an authentick act and by which they might have extorted again a Decree which would serve only to trouble and torment us and which would again oblige the Court to provide against it as it did in that other occasion M. Pereyret cry'd out hereupon in these very words That all which I said was as false as the Devil I reply'd to M. Pereyret and protested to the Court That I said nothing but what was most true That if the Court pleas'd to assign two of the Gentlemen on the bench to inquire thereof in case any falsitie were found in what I had utter'd I would submit to all the penalties which Calumniators deserve But that M. Pereyret ventur'd so boldly to say it was false for that he fear'd the Arrest for which I made sute to the Court by reason it would be an authentick piece and destroy the effect which they promis'd themselves from their pretended Censure and shew the nullity thereof The President here interpos'd and said that it would be much better that we agreed amongst our selves of our own accord without the granting of that Arrest or issuing out any thing in writing That warr was kindled both without and within the Realm that we had suffer'd famine that there were still other scourges which threatned us that it was a thing of ill relish to see Division amongst the Doctors that the Court treated us with honour acting with us in this manner inviting us to be reconcil'd together charitably and being willing to be contented with our Words that after this we ought to agree and live in peace I reply'd to the President That we much acknowledg'd the honour and charity which the Court was pleas'd to shew us and that if on our part we could not accept it it was long of the temper of the adversaries we had to do with which allow'd us not to account our selves in security from them without the Arrest which we most humbly beseeched the Court to grant us The President answer'd nothing more but that the Court would do us justice As we were departing from the barre to withdraw M. Pereyret looking fixedly upon me ask'd me with a very cholerick and high tone Will you bind the Popes hands Whereupon I approach'd back again towards the barrre to desire the Court to take notice how by this word which proceeded from the abundance of his heart he verified that which I had blamed him for and which

that purpose whatever importunity he made to the said Cardinal whatever perfect intelligence there was between them about all things else and although the Cardinal would otherwise have been glad to oblige M. Hersent both for his own sake and that of his Nation After which certainly I will never wonder that the mysteries of things which passe in that Congregation are so hidden and impenetrable for there can scarce be imagin'd a person more industrious to penetrate into what he desires then this Ambassador nor one more beneficent and civil then that Cardinal nor two persons more united together then they CHAP. VIII A visit of Cardinal Lugo The falsification of the Bull of Urban VIII The eagernesse of M. Albizzi against S. Augustine The Censure of Vallidolid THE favour done me by the abovesaid Cardinal in putting me upon a discourse with Cardinal Lugo caus'd me to conceive my self oblig'd after this conference with him to go and wait upon him in his own house lest I might be lyable either to be charg'd with disrespect to them both or suspected of secret aversion against the said Cardinal Lugo for his being a Jesuit So I went to visit him five or six dayes after and found him at home He receiv'd me very civilly and after some discourse touching the studies of Divinity follow'd a● Paris he told me that there were some that studied too much there I understood him well but I was willing to oblige him to speak more clearly and to put himself into the matter of his own accord Wherefore I answer'd That excesse was to be avoided in all things and that though the profession of Literature requires great assiduity with Books yet it was well enough known at Paris how to use moderation and due temper therein At length he declar'd himself and objected to me the Book Of the Authority of S. Peter and S. Paul as a Rhapsodie of passages quotations the interpreting and applying of which proceeded from that excesse he spoke of c. That the Censure upon it had follow'd c. these c. c. are usual in Italy there is great use made of them in speaking and that in the most polite discourses and they are utter'd for the abridging and supplying of what might be added for a more large explication it being suppos'd also that he who is spoken to understands well what is imply'd and is able to supply it I answer'd that as to the passages of that Book M. Bourgeois at his being at Rome had shew'd his Eminence the strongest and clearest of them and that he might have judg'd thereof As for the Censure that we at Paris did not conceive it to touch that Book at all it condemning only the Equality between those two Apostles sine ulla subjectione without any subordination but there were Chapters in that Book wherein several kinds of subordination were set down He told me that the Book spoke not of any besides that which concerns point of Time I answer'd that I had often heard those that had read it make account that there were several others and that as to the foundation of Equality of Power between those two Apostles people not at all interessed for the Book lookt upon it as a thing very honourable and advantageous to the H. See He continu'd firm in this that there was no other subordination mention'd in the said Book besides that of Time and then pass'd to speak of Sufficient Grace the ground of which he drew from Jesus Christ and S. Paul with as much certainty as 't is possible for that which is alwayes Victorious to be deduc'd from them I told him that the Disciples of S. Augustine made no difficulty to admit the same as those of S. Thomas do namely granting a certain posse but never the velle to wit perfect nor the facere besides which Graces there needs another Effectual one to produce the action but as for Sufficient Grace subject to the Will as that was which the first man receiv'd in the state of Original Righteousnesse it could not be admitted because it is conceiv'd contrary to the Doctrine of the Scripture and the Church In fine I told him that this was the thing in controversie amongst Divines for the clearing and pacifying of whose divisions it was to be wisht that the reasons both of the one side and the other might be heard that every thing might be examin'd c. He much dislik'd the Expedient saying that there needed no examination of a businesse which was already judg'd and for proof of his assertion he brought me the Bull of Pius V. I told him that I assented to the truth of that Bull but that all the Propositions contained therein were not thereby condemn'd and upon my alledging the Exception Quanquam earum aliquae possint aliquo modo sustineri in rigore proprio verborum sensu ab autoribus intento he told me that these last words ought to be referr'd to that which follows and that the sense was that Quamvis aliquo modo sustineri p●ssent tamen in proprio autorum sensu erant Haereticae c. I answer'd that this sense never came into my mind when I read the Bull notwithstanding the different pointing us'd in the several impressions thereof and that the words did not comply therewith He reply'd that he had consulted the Original of the Bull and found the commaes thus placed Hoc dato non concesso I said that the first words of the Exception were not put into the Bull without cause and that there must needs be some sense at least in which those Propositions may be maintain'd in the rigour and that this was it that was to be consider'd viz. what that sense was He could not gainsay it but chang'd his battery and recurr'd to the Scripture the H. Fathers and the Popes upon whose Authority he pretended that Sufficient Grace was establisht I answer'd him that we judg'd the Scripture Fathers and Popes on our side that if the case were as he said if the opinions of S. Augustin were not such as were to be follow'd the number of those who maintain them as well amongst the antient Doctors of our Faculty as among the younger would not encrease every day as it did Here he fell to mention pensions benefices and money given as he said to make those disciples adding that they were very well inform'd thereof and had receiv'd certain intelligence of all those practices I reply'd that this was so farr from being true that the Court being averse from those Tenents the way for any one to obstruct his own temporal advancement was to maintain them That a greater injury could not be done the Doctors then to accuse them of adhering to the truth upon so low and servile conditions and interests and that they who know and love truth embrace the same only for it self He betook himself to the infallibility of the H. See and cited this passage Ego dixi tibi

as we continu'd speaking of our Memorials we signifi'd him our satisfaction only by gestures VVhen M. de Valcroissant had done speaking he offer'd to give a Copy of those Memorials to his Eminence The Cardinal answer'd that it was better that he receiv'd them not that so if his Holiness should happen to speak to him of them he might find him wholly free from Prepossession in the business not having yet seen nor received them he told us nevertheless that it might be the Pope would not speak to him of them but debate concerning them perhaps with other Cardinals then these appointed for our Congregation perhaps with those perhaps all alone that perhaps he had already done reason therein by writing upon them what he thought good that he counsell'd us before we proceeded further to repair to his Holiness's Mastre de chambre to know whether the Pope had not deliver'd them to him with this resolution written at the bottom Thus Cardinal Ghiggi excused himself from taking them and by what he said to us we saw no likelihood that the Pope had yet spoken any thing to him concerning them The next day we went to Cardinal Pamphilio's house where we found M. Hallier and his Collegues who departed before the end of the audiences We were admitted to audience but so late that we could do no more but make a complement to him touching what we learnt the day before of his being of our Congregation in our visit to Cardinal Ghiggi In the afternoon we went to inquire of the Pope's Maistre de Chambre whether his Holiness had delivered our Memorials to him He answered us that the Pope did not remit affairs of such importance to him From thence we went to the Ambassador's house to accompany him to Chappel to the Vespers of the Circumcision After they were ended I waited upon him home He told me upon the way that there was newly sent to him from the Court a famous Book of F. Du Boss a Cordelier concerning the death of Jesus Christ for all I answer'd him that I believ'd I had one viz. the Apology of the H. Fathers wherein that was marvellously well refuted Being arriv'd at his house I spoke with F. Pique Secretary of the Embassy who told me that M. Hallier and his Collegues expected the condemnation of the Propositions assoon as the Congregations held at Cardinal Spada's house were ended and that they were very well pleased with the manner in which things were transacted I answered M. Pique that those Gentlemen had all reason to be satisfied therewith since they were on one side delivered from the pains of justifying their calumnies and defending themselves from our accusations and on the other all corresponded so well to the unhappy designs of their pernicious enterprize That nevertheless I believ'd Justice would be done upon all the so reasonable demands which we had made and that I did not think it imported the King's service and the quiet of the State to passe judgement suddenly in this affair without examining it and to precipitate a Decision without considering whether it were proper to clear and establish the Truth to secure Innocence from Oppression and to calm and reconcile men's minds The first day of the year 1653. we went in the afternoon to visit Cardinal Spada After the Abbot of Valcroissant had given him account of the contents of our two Memorials he answer'd us that it was not the custome at Rome to handle things in that way of disputation that it was practis'd neither in the Congregation of the H. Office nor in that del ' Indice which was establisht since the Council of Trent that indeed Books were lookt into but the Authors were not heard to argue that there would be no end if that course were followed that it was not practis'd under Pius V. Gregory XIII Vrban VIII nor under this very Pope in the affair de' due Capi of the two Heads he meant in the examination made at Rome of the Book concerning the authority of S. Peter and S. Paul As for the Jesuites he assur'd us in the Faith of a Priest laying his hand upon his breast that since this affair was begun not any Iesuite had spoken to him excepting what F. Palavicini one of the Consultors had spoken publickly in the Congregation As for M. Albizzi that the part he had in this businesse was very small that all he did therein was that when the Consultors had spoken in those Congregations half an hour or three quarters at most according as they pleased in full liberty he writ down their conclusion As for the Consultors that it was but a work of supererogation which was requir'd to be practised in this case that it was not the order to say to persons Go visit this or the other that they were known well enough that they came to the Congregations that either side was left at liberty to go and inform them Come added he Sappiamo bene che si fa dall ' una dall ' altra parte as we well know both parties do The Abbot of Valcroissant answered that the Propositions in question were none of those which were condemned by the Bull of Pius V. which probably was not publisht but by Gregory XIII That it was no wonder if the Parties were not heard in that case the said Bull having been closely drawn up without any persons having been advertised of it so that it was not possible for any to present themselves and demand a hearing touching that matter That although things were thus transacted under those two Popes yet under two others their Successors namely Clement VIII and Paul V. an other procedure was observ'd mutual audience and communication of writings allow'd to the Dominicans and the Iesuites in their contests about Molina's Book As for Vrban VIII that there was likewise no opportunity of hearing parties in reference to his Bull which came forth unexpectedly too and was but a renovation of that of Pius V. and a Declaration that there were in Jansenius Propositions condemn'd by that of Pius V. In which no doctrinal judgement was made as was intended to be in this case for which consideration it was very expedient that the parties might be heard disputing together That the Council of Trent accounted the same so important that it made many summons to those upon whose Opinions it was to pronounce to appear there to defend the same and represent the grounds of them that it sent safe conducts to them to the end they might repair thither in all liberty and that they not comming at length it caused their Sentiments to be disputed and maintained by Divines who so well took their part and propounded their reason with so great vigour that an Historian of that time records that themselves seemed of that perswasion Cardinal Spada answered hereunto that they had in a manner observ'd the same course in the Congregations held at his house That Divines of divers Orders and different

H. See since we accounted it a visible effect of the divine vigilance that it pleas'd God to inspire the Bishops of France with the thought and care to advertise his Holinesse of the conspiracy which was made against the Doctrine of S. Augustin and the Church which we undertook to justify before his Holinesse in presence of our adversaries by unreproachable witnesses and invincible proofs That if it pleased his Holinesse to bring it to the tryall we hop'd he should understand our sincerity and their foule dealing that this might be known by the sole reading of the sixty passages of S. Augustin which they produc'd against the first Proposition whereof there was not one but was a proof either of their ignorance or unfaithfulness some being alledg'd impertinently others misconstructed and some mutilated and corrupted as we were ready to demonstrate in presence of our Adversaries and to convince them thereof before the H. See You alwayes suppose said the Pope that you have adversaries to encounter 't is not so The other Doctors who are here to have judgement upon the five Propositions call not themselves your parties nor desire to be heard contradictorily We answer'd they must needs be our parties because they produce objections against the Doctrin which we maintain to be Catholick But besides your Holinesse will give us leave to say that we account all such our Adversaries and parties who impugne S. Augustin's authority and Doctrin Now these are visibly impugn'd and that by the Doctors who forg'd the five Propositions by those who prosecute their Censure with them but principally by the Jesuites whose books printed with the approbation of superiors and publick declamations tend utterly to ruine the Establisht authority and Orthodox Doctrin of that great Saint 'T is no wonder if our adversaries demand not of your Holinesse to be heard contradictorily in presence of S. Augustin's disciples they fear to be convinc'd of subverting a Doctrin whose defenders have so often found a sanctuary in the H. See which hath Canonis'd it by its Decrees Hence it is than employ at this day all their artifices and intrigues to keep your Holinesse from obliging them to defend themselves before you from the just accusations which we have to charge upon them and their pernicious Doctrin But reply'd the H. F. there 's no need of entring into disputation with those you call your parties 't is no Law-Processe that is in debate but the determining of Propositions This suffices to produce peace to the Church and we hope the Contests rais'd about these five will cease as soon as the H. See shall have spoken as it hapened in the Controvesie touching the authority of S. Peter and S. Paul Should I appoint such a conference as you ask disputes would be infinite Divines would come here from all parts I will speedily end this business without noise After using all the diligences I think necessary to understand it throughly 't is not to be doubted but the H. Ghost will communicate such light to me as I shall need to judge thereof according to truth Here we took the Liberty to say We most humbly beseech your Holinesse to adde one diligence to all those which you have us'd namely the establishment of a a solemn Congregation wherein the important truths in question may be clear'd and confirm'd The Orthodox doctrin of S. Augustin is at this day in contest our adversaries imagine the same by the bad sense which they put upon the five Propositions whose Censure they presse and sollicite to the end to disparage by the conseqences which they shall draw from thence the authority Catholick sentiments of that H. Doctor of grace We have many things to represent to your Holiness against our Adversaries both matters of fact and upon the several senses of the Propositions This cannot be well done but in their presence when they may contradict us and reflect the falshood if we alledge any and we also make good exactly and without exception all that we have to produce against them We shall shew in that Congregation that the belief of the Jesuites touching the five Propositions tends to overthrow the foundations of Christian Religion The demand which we reiterate to your Holiness in the name of our L. L. the Bishops to be heard contradictorily is legal conformable to the practice of the Church authoriz'd by the H. Fathers and allow'd by the Predecessors of your Holinesse What will the Faithful say when they see the H. Father deny the Sons of the Church all S. Augustin's disciples a thing most just not wont to be deny'd to any person not even to Hereticks And what will Posterity say when it shall know that Bishops of France could not obtain of the H. See after long and urgent sollicitations that which ordinary Priests have obtain'd without difficulty The Pope answer'd that all these considerations had been represented to him already that 't was to no purpose to repeat the same things that 't was our part onely to consider whether we would be heard before him without our adversaries and without disputes or no that in case we would he offer'd to receive our writings and hear us with patience and benignity as much as we pleas'd quanto vorrete We reply'd again that we were loath to be importune to his Holinesse but the affair committed to us being of extream importance oblig'd us to reiterate our most humble instances for obtaining a means which we conceiv'd necessary for the right treating of it In fine perceiving the Pope press'd us to answer precisely we thought it our duty to say to him H. Father we desire withall our hearts and most humbly demand the audiences which your Holinesse offers us but we demand them alwaies with the just and legal conditions which we have expressed and which are imported by our Commission the limits whereof we may not exceed Whereupon finding our H. Father not disposed to grant us a conference and that neverthelesse he pressed us to appear before him to represent the things whereof we desir'd to informe him we insisted no further but pray'd him to permit us to report to our Collegues what it pleas'd his Holiness to propose to us to the end we might all together testifie the submission and respect which had for his Orders In this disposition my Lords we left his Holinesse The same Evening we had certain notice of the draught of a Bull upon the five Propositions we know not whether it be to condemn them in general or in particular or whether it be onely to deprive the parties of Liberty to dispute of them by imposing silence to both yet 't is most likely to be for condemning them in some manner However it be all consider'd we have conceiv'd my Lords that we are oblig'd to appear before the Pope when it should please his Holinesse to send for us and hear us in presence of our adversaries In the first place to the end to