any Schoole-learning that they will heedfully obserue how current these your conclusions be and examine them by the rules of right and true disputation And indeed to chuse I will there begin where you your selfe haue made an entrance We mainteine that it is lawfull for Ministers of the Gospell and for Deacons to be maried You skorne the arguments whereby we make it good Wherefore let vs consider what goodly stuffe is brought on your side for the contrarie Pope Innocent the second of that name Distinct 82 Proposuisti Rom. 8.8 thus concludeth you must suppose by diuine inspiration against these mariages They which are in b DVR Pope Innocent spake of Priests who had vowed single life of their ovvne accord but aftervvard yeelded to lust WHIT. pag. 735. Nay he spake that of all Deacons and Priests for hee saith further Distinct. 82. cap. proposuisti It is not lawfull to admit them to holy offices which vse carnall companie â—ith their wiues because it is written â—â—e yee holy for 〈◊〉 the Lord your God am holy for then hee esteemed marriage duty to bee an vnholie thing in it selfe not in respect of their vow of which he speaketh not a word the flesh cannot please God Tit. 1.15 Vnto the pure al things are pure but vnto them that are defiled and vnbeleeuing is nothing pure Be yee holy because I the Lord your God am holy And because S. Paul permitteth married people by consent to sleepe apart for a season to the end they may more conueniently giue themselues to fasting praier Distinct 31. Tenere here heÌ„ce the Pope gathereth that this is much more c DVR This argument is good and can haue no shew of error For aboue all men a Priest must be chaste saith Origen Homil. 6 4. in Leuit. Also Ierome and Ambrose and Epiphanius taught the same WHIT. pag. 736. Yea you erâ—e and mistake S. Paul in theree things 1. What he wrote to all Christians you expound of Lay-men only 2. He speaketh only of extraordinarie fasts prayer but you applie it vnto all sorts thereof That the Apostle speaketh of extraordinarie appeares 1. Because he hath ioyned fasting with them 1. Cor. 7.5.2 Because Christ and his Apostle haue commanded all to pray continually and so all ought to lâ—ue a single life 3. From a short abstinence of Lay-men you childishly would proue a perpetuall single life to be necessary for Ministers You abuse also Origens words play the heretike as if chastitie were contrary to matrimony whereas the Fathers of the Nicene Councell consented to Paphnutius who said openly that society with a lavvfull wiâ—e is chastitie Socrates lib. 1. cap. 11. Jerome indeed disputed too sophistically against matrimony seeking victory more then verity as himself confessed Ambrâ—se and Epiphanius disswaded Ministers only from second mâ—â—riages allowing their fiâ—st to be done of Priests whose office is to pray alwaies to offer that daily sacrifice Distinct 28 Decernimus Last of al seeing they must be a teÌ„ple of the Lord and an oratory of the spirit d DVR Tertullian vsed this same argument against second marriage WHIT. pag. 739. Tertullian therein erred with Montanus as all the learned know condemning second marriages of vncleannes not only in Ministers but in all Christians yet he himselfe being a Priest was married and liued with his wife continuing his Ministery so that he neither iudged marriage to be vncleanenes nor vnlavvfull in Ministers simplie but only second marriages they ought not to abase themselues with bed-pleasures vncleannesses Now out of all these he coÌ„cludeth that which he propounded that Deacons and Priests are flatlie forbidden to marry Harding and Dorman and others If these things be absurdly disputed let vs heare others Seuerall Pastors haue rule ouer seuerall flockes c DVR The Pope challengeth no Lordship ouer the Churches but professeth himselfe the seueruant of Gods seruants WHIT. pag. 740. But his deeâ—s bewray his tyranny for he prescribeth commandeth threatneth punisheth and doth whatsoeuer any Lord can do DVR You can disproâ—e this consequent by no argument WHIT. pag. 741. It is an absurd argument like these Euery seuerall man hath one head therefore all men must haue one head Euery seuerall flocke hath his shepheard therefore all flockes must haue one to rule them Againe no one man can possiblie teach and feed the whole Church with the Word and Sacrament as a faithfull Pastor should and may doe in a particular Church Christ only can thus feed al particular Churches which can neuer be made one visible body and therefore can haue none but Christ the generall head and Pastor ouer them DVR Ierome Cyprian and Ireneus haue written the same we doe WHIT. pag 742. Not one of them First Ierome defendeth the superiority of one Pastor in the Church not as a matter of accessitie but of conueniency to preuent schismes and saith that the Church is founded vpon all the Apostles alike and that euery one equally hath receiued the keies of the kingdome of heauen euen in that place where you quote him against Iouinian lib. 1. Secondly Cyprian coÌ„cludeth only that there should be but one Pastor in one Church and neuer thought vpon the Popes primacie but saith plainly that euery particular Bishop hath all whatsoeuer any one hath by right in the same booke which you alleadge of the Churches vnity Lastly Ireneus called the Romane the chiefe Church not for any superiority but because she excelled all others in constancie largenes fame and soundnes of faith therefore the Pope ought to haue dominion ouer all Churches Christ said to Peter feed my sheepe f DVR Jt is manifest by this place that Christ gaue greater authoritie of feeding to Peter than to the other Apostles and so made him head of all his Church WHIT. p. 744. It will not follow vpon this place that Peter had greater authority to feed or that he only must feede all for he said to them all alike Matth. 28.19 Goe yee teach all nations and Iob. 20 21. As the Father sent me so I send you Therefore he spake so often then to Peter to confirme him after his grieuous fall that he might not doubt of his Apostolicall calling as saith Augustines treatise on Iohn 123. so that it no whit concerneth the Pope therefore Peter is the chiefe principall Pastor of the Church The Lord made two great lights the Sunne g DVR The Pope vseth this as a similitude to amplifie not as an argument to prooue by authoritie WHIT. pag. 746. This is an idle shift a similitude is an argument and Johannes Andraeas would prooue hereby that the Pope excelleth the Emperor in dignitie seuentie times seuen degrees the Moone therfore the Pope excelleth the Emperour in honour and greatnes Heere are two swords therfore the h DVR VVe gather nothing hence but vvhat Bernard did saying This sword of temporall povver is thine
and explaned Page 53. 54 The summe of the second answere touching the true meaning of the Scripture 1 The substance and soule of the scripture is the true meaning Page 59 2 The sense is not that which most hold but which is agreeable to the scripture ibid. nota 3 Papists make the Church the interpreter of scriptures that is first Bishops then Councels in their defect the Pope for he so challengeth it that whatsoeuer he thinketh that must be the meaning of it Page 60 4 It is very absurd to hang the sense of the scriptures vpon one mans iudgement especially vpon the Pope so vnlearned and absurd an interpreter as many of them haue bin Page 60. 61 5 They teach the sense of the scripture may be changed with the times and occasions Page 61 6 Foure senses of euery scripture made by Papists Page 61. 62 7 The manner of interpreting the scriptures amongst Protestants which is auncient and safe Page 62 8 Protestants do not exclude Christ from the supper as Papists falsely accuse them yet they include him not in it as Papists do his naturall body they place in heauen but the virtue communion and benefit of this body they exclude not but mainteâ—â— that whole Christ is present to each mans faith Page 63 9 Christ is as present in Baptisme and was to the Fathers as in the Supper ibid. nota 10 The popish and false interpretation of these words This is my body this my bloud confuted by the same rule whereby Campian would confirme them that is by conference of them with the words adioyning Page 64. 65 11 That the words of the sacrament bee figuratiue is proued by the induction of other sacraments Page 65. 66 12 There is no miracle in the sacrament Page 67 13 Papists affirme that the wicked eate the body of Christ as well as the beleeuer Page 67 14 All antiquity is on the Protestants side for the interpretation of the words of the sacrament against the Papists and so their transubstantiation is a new inuention Page 67 15 The testimonies of Tertullian and Augustine alleadged and of Theodoret. Page 68. 69 16 The testimonie of Macarius a Monke Page 70 17 Campian dealeth vnequally pressing the Protestants to leaue the iudgement of the scripture and stand to the iudgement of the Pope being an enemy to them Page 71 The summe of the third answere touching the nature of the Church 1 The true notes of the Church whose present being maketh a true Church whose absence marreth and ouerthroweth it are the word the whole and pure sacraments Page 77. 78 2 The Church is more hid and vnknowne then the Scripture Page 78. nota 3 The Church is euer and must be vpon the earth and oftentimes inuisible compared therefore of Augustine to the Moone Page 78 4 In the daies of Ahab and of Christ it was inuisible or scarce visible Page 80 5 Succession not necessary to the being of the Church for it hath bin and yet no Church as in the Church of the Iews Page 81 6 The small number of the faithfull as Christs 〈◊〉 Pag. 82 7 What is a visible Church Page 82. 83 8 Though perticular Churches are visible it followeth not that the Catholike Church is euer visible ibid. 9 The antiquitie of our faith and doctrine is from the Apostles time Page 83. 84 10 Superstitious growing vpon the Church Page 84 11 The growing of the Popes authority to the height it is now at 84. nota 12 The bringing of Images into the Church Page 84. nota 13 The Grecians not subiect to the Romish Church ibid. 14 The vow of virginitie not vnderstood by faith in S. Paul and what is meant by it Page 86. nota 15 To what Church the Protestants will subscribe Page 87 16 In the visible Church are both good and hypocrites in the inuisible only godly and faithfull men Page 88 17 The distinction of visible and inuisible make not two Churches but one and how they differ and what the Catholike Church is nota The summe of the fourth Answere touching generall Councels 1 Protestants with consent of antiquitie prefer the Scripture before Councels Page 94. nota 2 Nazianzenes hard censure of Councels Page 95 3 The first Councell hold by the Apostles and Church by necessarie consequent condemneth the multitude of popish ceâ—â—â—â—nies Page 96 4 Augustine condemneth the multitude of ceremonies in his time how would he complaine if he saw the multitude of popish ceremonies Page 96 5 Gregories speech expounded touching the foure generall Councels Page 97 6 The iudgement of the Church of England touching the foure generall Councels Page 98 7 The Popes may not haue Peters honour seeing they haue not his vertues and pietâ—â— 99 8 The Canon of the Councell of Nice vtterly ouerthrowed the supremacie of the Pope giuing him no authoritie ouer other churches no more then others ouer his Page 100. 101 9 The Councell of Calcedon doth not confirme the Popes supremacie but ouerthrowes it The Councell gaue to the church of Râ—â—â— greater prerogatiues because it was the chiefe seate of the Empire and not for any law of God and made the Bishop of Constantinople equall with the Bishop of Rome Page 101. 102 10 The Councell of Constantinople gaue vnto the sea of Rome the honour of precedence and place not of authority Page 103 11 The Councell of Ephesus ascribeth no more to the Bishop of Rome then to other Bishops ibid. 12 The Councell of Nice doth not establish the vnbloudie sacrifice of the altar for in the canon named there is no mention of sacrifice or altar Page 104 13 The Fathers haue called the Lords Supper an vnbloudie sacrifice because it is without bloud and not because no bloud is then shed Page 105 14 Saincts departed know neither vs nor the things we do or slâ—â—â—d in need of no reason then we should pray vnto them though the custome be auncient it hath no warrant Page 106 15 Saincts departed know our generall conditions as we theirs not our perticular state nota 16 S. Paul prayed not to the Romanes and Corinthians as Papists do to Saincts but required of them a christian dutie nota 17 The Councell of Calcedon admiâ—teth ministring Widowes who are but 40. yeares of age forbidding them marriage when as S. Paul would haue them 60. before they be admitted Page 107 18 Duraeus confesseth that in the first age they did not prefer continone is before marriage nota 19 They who haue vowed single life and cannot performe it haue done euill in vowing but not in marrying and for to vow things not in our power is to mock God Page 108 20 Chastitie and single life is not in mans power nota 21 Cyprian alloweth Virgins who haue vowed virginitie if they cannot liue honestly to marry Page 109 22 Campian maketh the Councell of Trent and other Councels equall with the foure Euangelists Page 110 23 Priuate men alleadging the scripture rather to be beleeued then the
cannot long continue But you now begin to presse your aduersaries somewhat more forceably and you demaund of them for example sake by what authority they maime and robbe the corpes of the Bible I answere we offer no violence to this body neâ—ther do we cut off any which doe appertain to the substance and perfection of it we dash out no part of it we pull away no member For to vse your owne words we do not cut out any true Canonicall Scriptures but cull out such as are not Canonical but foisted in and counterfeit But you would know who shal be iudge you make Caluin to answere for vs the holy Ghost and you suggesting that he giueth this answere to escape the iudgement of the Church if you enquire how we know these writings which we call Scriptures to be heauenly and giuen by the inspiration of God that is by what testimony we are perswaded that those writings are holy Scripture which are so called I would aske you with as much reason another question how know you the sonne is the sonne or how ye come not to doubt that God is God for we verely haue as much certeinty that thâ—se bookes are the sacred Scripture commended of the Lord to the Church written by the Prophets and Apostles proceeding from diuine authoritie as that the Moone is the Moone yea as wee are sure of any thing else which by vndoubted knowledge we are full assured of this answere Caluin also hath giuen you Iustit lib. 1. cap. 7. sect 4. cap. 8. toto writing that many things might be produced which would easily proue that if there be a God in heauen the Law the Prophets and the Gospell came from him yea and with many words at large he vrgeth it with most strong arguments such as may satisfie any reasonable man touching the authoritie and credit of the Scriptures There are in the bookes themselues proofes enough both certeine and perspicuous which will proue and demonstrate the credit of the Scriptures that no man need boubt of them But because the sense and reason of man is often times weake and easily distracted into diuers and doubtfull cogitations the inward and hidden testimony of the spirit must be had that men may firmely rest in the Scriptures For though outward testimonies will so conuince vs that for shame we cannot deny the Scriptures to be the word of God yet then only do we attaine a certeine and sauing ful assurance when the same spirit which writ and published them doth perswade our harts of the credit of them And this is that spirit which the Lord hath promised to his Church and which dwelleth in the harts of the faithfull and is as a seale vnto them he that hath not this spirit shall euer in himselfe be vncerteine and doubtfull though he heare the Church a thousand times What is the fault then you find Campian Caluin say you doth make the spirit Iudge thereby to escape the iudgement of the Church by whose authoritie all spirits are tried The iudgement of the Church ought not to differ from the iudgement of the spirit the same spirit gouerneth the whole h DVR What an absurd thing is this that you contemne the voice of the Church and allow your common people to iudge rather of the Scriptâ—res and giue all to the spirit when the Fathers haue obiected the Church against heretikes WHIT. pag. 109. We contemne not the voice of the first Church wherein these were written and from theÌ„ commended to succeeding Churches But pag. 108. we much regard not the voice of your Romish Church for as we know there is a God though it tell vs not so much so that the Scriptures are the word of God though it be silent and by the same grounds that your Church knoweth the Scriptures to be the Scriptures by the same proofes may euery priuate Christian know them pag. 111. If you know not that the grace of the spirit is necessary to discerne the Scriptures then reade these places John 14 26. 1. Iohn 2 26 27. 1 Cor. 2 14 10. Esay 51 16. Now the same spirit who wâ—it them seales them vp to vs without which some knowledge may be had of them bâ—t no faith we may acknowledge them but not certeinly beleeue them without the spirit And if the Fathers haue obiected the Church against heretikes in the like case we will do the same For the testimony of the spirit is not of validity to confute others but to confirme our selues Church and euery particular beleeuer But your Church knoweth not this spirit no maruell then if it dislike the iudgement of the spirit yet I would haue you take this for an answere once for all that the authority of the Scriptures doth not depend vpon the iudgement of the Church for let the Church iudge what it will yet can it neuer by all the authority it hath make the Canonicall bookes to be no Canonicall and that those which are not Canonicall should be had in reputation as Canonical The Scripture hath it owne proper authority in it selfe not borrowed froÌ„ another And as little can the Church add authority to the Scripture as it can to God the authour of it But say you how commeth it to passe that the Caluinists spirit alloweth six Epistles which the Lutheran spirit doth disallow you go in a ring making only the repetition of the same things without any proceeding Those Epistles the Lutherans i DVR That the Lutheâ—anâ— do not like these Epiâ—iles tâ—ey of Magdeburg Centur. 1. lib. 2. cap. 4. tell vs plainely WHIT. pag. 117. What is that to vs who thinke as honorablie of them as you do but if they by the example of auncient â—hurches haue spokeÌ„ somewhat hardly of those Epistles is there heere any such difference of â—pirits All things are not reueâ—led to all a like all haue not the like measure of the spirit If any be otherwise minded God will in his time reueâ—le â—t to him doe not reiect nor dash them out of the new Testament yea they acknowledge them they make vse of them in vnfoulding of controuersies they expound them in their schooles and churches and they reade them both priuately and publikely vpon many of them Luther hath written k DVR By the same reason if Luther should comment vpon certeine of Aesops fables and Illyricus vpon al then by their spirit they are certeinly receiued into the Canon WHIT. pag. 117. And why may not Aesops fables be in the Canon if your Church please seeing your VVolfangus Hermannus affirme the Scriptures are of no more authority then those fables without the authority of your Church But I adde if you would haue seene it that they vsed them in preaching in expounding Scriptures in deciding controuersies and did interpret them both priuately and publikely Commentaries Illyricus vpon all That of the authority of those Epistles in times past the Catholike Church made some doubt they
learne from him many new and excellent points This your first reason seemed very iust in your conceit to maintaine your glorious challenge of disputation with some of the learned of our Vniuersities But Campian you had delt a great deale wiser for your self if either you had neuer conceiued thesâ— reasons or streightway vpon the birth smothered them For before by your great challenge you begat a maruelous and wonderfull conceit of your selfe in euery mans mind and now when they shall readâ— those slender reasons of yours they will easily perceiue there is no cause why you should take so much vpon you and they wil tontemptuously deride you as you well deserue hisse you out of their scholes Therefore the counsell which Archidamuâ— gaue to his Sonne headily venturing to right with the Athenians the same doe our Vniuersitie men giue to to you Either adde to thy might or abate of thy mind for no man Campian euer tooke more vpon him and performed lesse than you haue done But let vs see what other things you bring vs. EDMVND CAMPIAN The second Reason which is the right sense of the Scriptures ANother matter that prouoked me to vndertake this enterprize and that enforced mee little to feare these my aduersaries slender armies is the vsuall inclination of my enemie in expounding the Scriptures full of deceite and void of wisdome These things you Philosophers would quickely finde out and therefore I was desirous of your audience Let vs demaund for example sake of our aduersaries what caused them to deuise this new opinion whereby Christ is * This is false for we doe not exclude Christ from the Supper excluded out of the mysticall supper If they name the Gospell we ioyne with them the very words they are for vs. a Matth. 26 Mark 14. Luk. 22. This is my bodie this is my blood which words seemed to b Luther in epist. ad Argen Luther so forcible that when he earnestly desired to be of Zuinglius mind because by that meanes he might haue wrought the Pope most displeasure yet notwithstanding he yeelded being ouercome and vanquished by the most plaine text of Scripture and as vnwillingly confessed that Christ is truly present in the most holy Sacrament as the c Matth. â— Marke 1. diuels in time past being ouercome with miracles with outcries confessed that Christ is the sonne of God Goe to then the written word doth fauour vs the controuersie is about the true meaning of the written word Let vs trie out this by the words thereunto adioyning d Luk. 22. Mattb. 22. Corpus meum quod pro vobis datur sanguis meus qui pro multis eâ—lundetur that is My bodie which is giuen for you my blood which shal be shed for many Yet the matter goeth hard on Caluins side and maketh very manifestly and plainely for vs. What say they else Conferre say they the Scriptures together Agreed The c Iohn 6. Matth. 16. Marc. 14. Luc. 22. Gospels make for vs f 1. Cor. 10. 11. S. Paul accordeth also The words the sentences the whole connexion of Scriptures doe often most reuerently repeate the bread and the wine a not able miracle heauenly foode his flesh his bodie his blood Here is nothing figuratiue nothing obscured by doubtfull speeches yet notwithstanding the aduersaries stand stiffely in their opinion and neuer cease wrangling What shall we then doe I hope antiquitie may be heard and that the reuerend hoare head of Fathers of all former ages to Christs time more nigh farther off from the time of these controuersies may be their iudgement determine this debate which we cannot end amongst our selues being suspected one of another * This is false for in this coÌ„trouersie we willingly admit Antiquity as witnesse They cannot away with that they say then they are betraied They crie out for the sincere and pure word of God they vtterlie reiect all mens commentaries trecherouslie and witlesselie done We will vrge them with the word of God they darken it we call the Saints in heauen for witnesses they refuse them In few words this is their drift that vnlesse thou wilt stand to their owne iudgement that are guiltie there is no iudgement to be had And so they behaue themselues in euerie controuersie betweene vs. As concerning grace powred into vs from heauen inherent iustice the visible Church the necessity of Baptisme Sacraments and sacrifices meritorious works of good folke hope and feare inequality of offences the authoritie of S. Peter the keyes vowes Euangelicall counsailes and other like controuersies we Catholikes in sundrie of our books in our mutuall conference in churches in schooles haue brought forth many and waightie places of Scripture and haue both tried and applied the same They haue scorned at this We haue alledged the interpretations of the auncient Greeke and Latin Churches they haue refused them What say they then marry that M. Doctor Martin Luther or else M. Philip Melanthon or certainelie M. Zuinglius or without doubt M. Caluin and M. Beza haue faithfullie entreated vpon these matters Can I imagine any of you to be so stuffed in the nose that being forewarned cannot quicklie smell out this subtile iugling wherfore I confesse plainlie that I am desirous to haue audience in the Vniuersitie scholes that after I haue called these Ruffian-like knights out of their dark dennes into the open and plaine field I may before your eies discomfite them not by my owne strength which am not to bee compared with the worst of an hundred of our side but by the puissance of the cause and certaintie of the truth which we maintaine WILLIAM WHITAKERS The answere to the second Reason WHat could be said touching the Scriptures wee haue heard wee must proceed to heare what can bee said for the interpretation and exposition of them for our vsuall inclination in expounding the Scriptures saith Campian hath encouraged and incited him earnestly to desire this encounter And we also Campian haue long ago desired to buckle with you herein And at length the Lord hath brought you out of your lurking holes into the broad light that we might trie it out with you but what is our disposition you speake of It is full of deceit say you and void of wisdome Thus you being a man of small reach and lesse discretion do conceite our inclination Assuredly the matter you haue now in hand is a cause of great waight for the force the substance and as it were the soule of the Scripture consisteth in the meaning very well said Hierome The Scriptures are not in the letter but in the vnderstanding Contra Lucifer in 1. cap. ad Gila and in another place a DVR Then Luther and Caluin obtruded a new Gospell vpon the Church when they brought in a new sense of the words such as the whole Christian â—orld knew not yea it had a far other sense of the Scriptures WHIT. pag. 138. If this last
true faith lay hold on the Gospell These though they may bee seene as long as they liue amongst men seeing they are men as others bee yet because neither their faith nor Gods loue which maketh them members of the Church is visible we affirme that this Church consisting of holy and faithfull men is altogether inuisible Christ is the head of this Church to this only the elect caâ— ioyne themselues wee then acknowledge another Church besides that which coÌ„teineth only Saints for so should there be no visible Church at all but what company of men soeuer vpon the earth doth professe the doctrine of the Apostles and Prophets we professe that to be the true Church of Christ though many wicked men be found in it Neither are we the first who did inuent and deuise these things as you say of vs but are ready to proue theÌ„ both by the holy scripture and by authority of Antiquity Comfort then your selfe Campian as much as you can with the wits of our Vniuersity men and promise to your selfe great things from vs but see you bring more dexterity of wit or else without doubt you can neuer deceiue vs with this shallow conceit If you should propound these foolish and childish things in the populous assemblies of our Vniuersity men I perswade my selfe they would not only teare to pieces these your childish shifts but do as much by you too for abusing so shamefully their learned conceites EDMVND CAMPIAN The fourth Reason which is generall Councels AGreat controuersie for the keeping of the ceremonies of the old law which in the Primitiue Church much moued the minds of faithfull people was by a Councell gathered together of the Apostles and some elders decided Children then beleeued their Parents and sheepe their Sheepheards charging them in this sort a Act. 15 It hath pleased the holy Ghost and vs after this there were holden foure generall Councels of auncient Fathers for the rooting out of heresie which budded vp aboundantly in euery age which were of such authoritie aboue b Greg. li. 1. epist. 24. 1000. yeeres agoe that * Gregorie made the foure Councels equall to the Euangelists great honour was attributed vnto them as though it had been vnto the foure Gospels I will seeke no further euen here in our owne Countrey by an c Anno 1. Elizab. acte of Parliament the selfe same Councels doe retaine still their former force and pure authoritie which said acte I will heere alleadge And call thee thy selfe O England my most louing Countrey to witnesse If thou reuerence as thou pretendest those Councels Nic. Can. 6. Chal. act 4. 16. Constan c. 5. Eph. conc in epist. ad Nestorium Nic. con 14 Chal. act 11 Nic. conc apud Soc. lib. 1 cap. 8. Vide Chalc. can 4.15.23 then wilt thou yeeld vp the supremacie to the Bishop of the chiefe sea that is to Saint Peter Then wilt thou acknowledge vpon the altar the vnbloodie sacrifice of the bodie and blood of Christ. Then wilt thou pray the blessed Martyrs and all the Saints in Heauen to make intercession to Christ for thee Then wilt thou restraine these leacherous Apostataes from their filthie carnall copulation and open incest Then wilt thou build vp many things which now thou pullest downe and wish many things vndone which now thou doest Moreouer I promise and vndertake as occasion and time shall serue to proue that the * Campian makes all Synods equall with the Gospell Councels holden at other times and namely the Councell of Trent haue been of equall authoritie and credit with the foure first Councels Wherefore then should I not come to this place of triall securely and couragiously to marke into what corner my enemie will creepe seeing I am * This is false ancient Councels doe not confirme the Romish faith ayded with the valiant and piked garrison of all the Councels For I will alleadge both most manifest matter which he shall not be able to wrest aside and also most substantially prooued which he dare not contemptuously reiect He will perhaps goe about to trifle out the time with multiplying of many words but if you be the men that I haue alwaies taken you for you will take so good heed vnto him that he shall neither rob you of your eares nor eyes If there shall be any at all so mad as to oppose himselfe against the sages of all Christendome and those such men as for holines of life learning and antiquitie are too great to be challenged I would willingly behold that brazen face the which when I shall shâ—w you I will leaue the rest to your imaginations In the meane while I will giue you this caueat that whosoeuer affirmeth that a generall Councell * The Councell of Trent was neither a full Councell nor lawfully held And so both the Emperor and the French King haue iudged Sleidan anno 1551. lib. 33. The assemblie of certaine men duly and orderly kept and finished is of no force or authoritie the same man seemeth to me to be one of no iudgement nor of any wit and not onely an asse in diuinitie but also voide of discretion in worldly policie If euer the spirit of God illuminated the Church surely then that time is most fit to send downe the holy Ghost when the religion perfection knowledge wisdome and honour of all Churches dispersed throughout all Christendome are assembled together into one Citie and vsing all meanes both diuine and humane whereby the truth may be searched out Matth 18. they call vpon the holy Ghost promised e Joh. 14. by God vnto them that by his assistance they may establish godly lawes for the safe and wise gouernement of the Church Now let there some pettie peart hereticall Doctor leape out let him looke vp stately let him scorne and mocke let him lay all shame aside let him saucily giue iudgement of his owne iudges what game what pastime shall he make we haue spied out such a one euen Martin f Lib. de capt Bab. Luther who saith that he more esteemeth of the voices of two honest and learned men ye may well imagine his owne and Philip Melancthons if they come together in Christs name then he did of all generall Councels O worthy companie We haue found out also another of the same crue to wit g Martini Kemnitij examen Conc. Tridentini Kemnitius who hath vndertaken to examine the Councell of Trent by his owne vnreasonable giddie braine what hath he gained an euill name so that he except he preuent it by recanting shall be buried for an heriticke with Arrius whereas the Councell of Trent the elder it waxeth by so much more it shall flourish daily and continually * The famous praises of the Councell of Trent O good Lord with what diuersitie of people out of all countries with what choice of Bishops throughout all Christendome with what excellencie of Kings and Common-weales with what
you Ireneus Victor Polycarp Cornelius Cyprian Sixtus Laurentius are ours But I affirme that all these do belong vnto vs let vs then consider how you will perswade vs they are yours Telesphorus enioyned a more strict obseruation of Lent fast appointed by the Apostles e DVR But J proue it by these witnesses Augustine Hierome Basil Ambrose Epiphanius Clemenâ— WHIT. pag. 862. And I proue the contrary by the Fathers August Epist. â—6 writeth plainely that neither Christ not his Apostles ordained any certaine time for fastings And so not Lent Tertul. aduer Psychicos In times past ChristiaÌ„s indifferently fasted of their owne free will as euery mans time and occasions required and not by any coÌ„mand of new gouernmeÌ„t Doth not this ouerthrow the necessary obseruatioÌ„ of Lent Chryso in Mat. hom 47. freely confesseth that Christ did not command vs to imitate his fast But what is Lent but an imitation of it Further Montanus was the first who brought vp set solemne daies of fastings Euseb lib. 5. cap. 17. Finally Ireneus in Eusebius lib. 5. cap. 26. sheweth that in the Primitiue Church there was great variety about the keeping of this fast and that this difference began not in his time only but was long before Therefore it is false that Christ and his Apostles appointed the fast of Fortie daies I deny that the Apostles ordeined any such Lenâ—en fast or that Telesphorus commaunded a more precise obseruation thereof The Apostles were farre from ordeining and Telesphâ—rus from reuiuing so great superstition Clemens his Constitutions where this is reported are not sufficient authoritie But if this fast were prescribed by the Apostles I wonder how afterwards it was discontinued so as it should bee necessarie for Telesphorus to enioyn the keeping of it more precisely especially seeing such strife was in the Church about the celebration of Easter The epistle of Telesphorus wherein he commaunds the 7. weekes fast hath the same authority with the rest of your decretall epistles of your Pope which were not framed by the most holy Bishops themselues but coyned since by the most impudent Parasites of the church of Rome Jren. lib. 4. cap. 43. Ireneus say you declared the Apostolike faith from the succession and sea of Rome So he might well then for as Ireneus elsewhere saith They retained with the succession of Bishops the gratious succession of truth for succession is nothing worth without truth Your Chaire and Sea hath Bishoply succession it hath not the succession of truth Victor say you by his edict subdued Asia He endeuored it indeed Campian but failed of his purpose for being a man very passionate he would needs excommunicate all such Churches of Asia as refused to keepe Easter according to the Romane custome When he began thus insolently to abuse his authority f DVR Neither Ireneus nor any other denied to Pope Victor this power to excommunicate the Churches of Asia WHIT. pag. 863. But Eusebius wriâ—eth lib. 5. cap. 25. that both Ireneus and many other Catholike Bishops sharpely reproued him for assuming that power Ireneus tamed and restrained him As for the controuersie about Easter Victor was so farre from composing and ending it that it coÌ„tinued vnto the g DVR By the same reason you may say the CouÌ„cels decree preuailed nothing to endiâ—â—â— controuersie WHIT. pag. 864. The reason is good proueth that wheÌ„ he could preuaile neither by examples reasons nor threatnings that those Churches did not accouÌ„t Pope Victor for the head of the Church And though after that Councell of Nice some Churches obserued the Passeouer after another manner yet the most Churches followed the iudgement and authoritie of the Councell So the Councell preuailed more then the Pope could doe Councell cell of Nice You may see how well Victor subduer all Asia Polycarpe in the question about Easter went to Rome Smyrna gathered his reliques Wonderfull reasons Polycarpe went to Rome to consult with Anycetus about Easter and Smyrna gathered his reliques ergo Polycarpe is yours Doth not the learned Vniuersities make you ashamed of this childish sophistrie h DVR Enuie maketh you forge an vntruth And whil for eunie you pine avvay aâ— the honor which is giuen of Christians to the reliques of Martyrs you imitate the Jewes and the Diuell WHIT. pag. 865. I haue spoken neither lesse nor more then Eusebius hath written who theÌ„ liued After we had gathered his banes being more precious then pearles and gold we buried them where it was thought sit And as for the reliques of Saiâ—ns I enuy them not the Saints themselues I euer honorablie remember But that the reliques of Saints were worshipped with religiâ—us honor as they are in your Church you shall neuer be able to proue His bones indeed were gathered by the Church of Smyrna not to worship them but to bury them as Eusebius in the same place recordeth But why are Cornelius and Cyprian yours forsooth because Cornelius abolished the i African error and Cyprian had him in great reuerence Oh wonderfull Iesuiticall Logick l DVR His supreame authoritia appeareth in this because hee decreed that controuersie being not the Bishop of Africke but of Rome WHIT. pag. 866. Saint Paul confuted many errors of the Churches of Galatia Coâ—inth Rome and diuers others yet was hee neuer supreame Bishop So did Augustine But what error did he suppresse was it touching Baptisme by heretikes that he neuer could doe but Cyprian and the Bishops of Africke constantly held it which proued they neuer acknowledged that he had any such authoritie who can chuse but be much moued with such strong reasons But let vs heare another Sixtus is ours and why so Seauen of the Clergie ministred vnto him while hee serued at the altar Seauen Deacons helped Sixtus to celebrate the Lords supper ergo Sixtus is yours If this reason be of force let him be yours hardly I will not striue with you about him but herein is nothing why he may not as well be k DVR Pope Sixtus a Priest offred vp the body and blood of Christ Deacons assisting of him could not bee a Caluinist but on our side WHIT. pag. 868. As if we had no Deacons who helpe the Minister when he celebrateth the Lords Supper ours as yours Doth it become you Campian thus to trifle thus to abuse our patience What followeth Laurence is yours how so I pray you Our aduersaries haue cast him out of their Calouder We remember him with reuerence as a saint and a friend of Christ though we worship him not as God But Prudentine prayed vnto him a thousand yeares agoe Giue leaue Campian to a Poet to vse poeticall auersions from whence yet no strong reason can be drawne But if Prudentius were something too superstitious what is that to vs Now you recken vp virgins Câ—cilia Agatha and others but what haue they done why they should not be ours When the Tyrants examined them of their faith they
the fatte would be in the fire Campian if you had not one fit of rayling at Luther for this is to shew your selfe a right Iesuite as indeed you are shamelessely and audaciously to breake out into rayling and specially to teare Luther with most bitter reproches This is your facultie and profession this you haue vndertaken to do whatsoeuer youâ— leaue vndone surely he is an happy man whom the Lord thus honoreth with the enmitie and hatred of such wicked men for he cannot chuse but be an excellent man whom wicked men do so deadly pursue But you obiect against Luther his Apostasie look to your selfe Campian if you may not bee more iustly accused of this crime for doubtlesse you are either an Apostata or you were a cunning hypocrite But if it be Apostasie to forsake Apostataes then was Luther such an Apostata For hee abandoned theeues heretikes Apostataes and separated himselfe from that Curch in which that daily Apostasie from religion 2. Thess 2.3 which the Apostle did foretell was now come to the height they then who would not be Apostataes must flie from the Apostasie of your Church But say you Luther spake not so reuerently of the Epistle of S. Iames as was fitting It is well all you can challenge him with is touching this Epistle only he neuer did by any one word impeach the Gospels of Matthew Marke Luke and Iohn neither the Epistles of Saint Paul or Saint Peter only a little he taxed the Epistle of Saint Iames. Is Luther alone in this crime hath all Antiquitie receiued this Epistle of S. Iames Luther only reiected it vndoubtedly no neither was Luther ignorant what censure the auncient Church gaue of this Epistle * Lib. 2. c. pa 23. Eusebius adueÌ„tured to write expresly of this Epistle thus b DVR But Eusebius onely saith that this Epistle vvas thought of diuers not to be vvritten by S. Iames and denies not the canonicall authoritie of it For after hee saith It was receiued of many Churches WHIT. Pag. 12. You wrest both the words and sence of Eusebius for he alleageth not other mens opinions but his owne direct iudgement But if wee admit that you say it must the rather bee counterfeit for if Saint Iames did not write it and yet hee calleth himselfe James the seruant of God and of our Lord Iesus Christ must it not bee forced â—aue the pen-men of the Scripture vsed to take other mens names vnto them If you deny it to bee written by Saint James you must needes confesse it to be Apocrypha and so after your sense Eusebius hath reiected this Epistle which thing to him that readeth Eusebius will manifestly appeare And that hee saith many Churches receiue it and not all must needs proue that he thought it was not Canonicall Be it knowne to all men that this Epistle which is fathered on Saint Iames is counterfeit what can be written more plainely it may be you will except against Eusebius But tell vs why therefore not to stand with you Hieronym in Catalogo will you heare what Hierome saith who as you well know was an Elder of the Church of Rome The Epistle of Iames is held to haue been published vnder his name by some other The one saith it is counterfeit the other writeth that it was thought to be published not by the Apostle but by some other Why then are you angrie with Luther whom you see not vnaduisedly and rashly to doubt of the authoritie of that Epistle but therein followeth the iudgement and censure of the auncient Church for from hence it is very cleare c DVR Doth hee therefore doubt of the authoritie of this booke what shall vve then say to Caluin vvho hath plainely denied that the Epistle to the Hebrues vvas vvritten by Saint Paul and if you had not been a deceiuer you vvould haue alleadged Hierome vvholy for it follovveth Though by little and little in succeeding ages it obtained authoritie WHIT. Pag. 16 He that saith It is thus held and neither dislikes nor refures such a suspition sheweth he not himself also doubtful of it Caluin had some reason because that Epistle was not published in the name of Saint Paul as this was of Saint Iames. What comparison is there in these two the Epistle of Saint Iames hath his name in the beginning of it as the author of it so hath not the other the name of Saint Paul so that hee that denies that to bee written by Saint Iames must needes make it counterfeit But no such thing here Therefore may this be held to be canonicall though it be denied to be written by Saint Paul If you had read but a few lines more you should finde that I vsed no deceite neither had you causâ— to be so bitter And these words of Hierome prooue directly that the authoritie of this Epistle was sometimes doubted of that the first age of the Church doubted somewhat of the credit and authoritie of this Epistle But you will say it was afterwards receiued and Hierome witnesseth as much I inquire not how iustly that might be receiued in a succeeding age which once was reiected that the credit and authoritie it had not in the beginning it might gaine in time by mens calmnesse in iudging neither will I contend about the authority of this Epistle Let it be as great as euer any booke had we verily receiue it and put it in the Canon of the Scriptures for whatsoeuer Luther or any other may conclude touching this Epistle or lessen the credit of it any way yet all our Churches willingly imbrace it and iudge it written by the Apostle or some Apostolike man and in it do vndoubtedly acknowledge the doctrine and spirit of an Apostle * Caluin in argument in Epist. Iacob I saith Caluin willingly and without controuersie receiue this Epistle because I see no iust cause to reiect it Therefore obiect no longer vnto vs other mens sharpe censures and hard speeches whereof we are no wayes guilty for what is it to vs what other men thinke of this Epistle who dispraise no part of it neither detract any thing from the authority thereof But where I pray you writ Luther any such thing which you make mention of let vs see the place that we may perceiue how faithfully you deale You tell vs of a Preface he writ vpon the Epistle of S. Iames such as I thinke few men know for it is no where to be found amongest Luthers workes yet by accident I light vpon that preface and read it from the beginning to the ending in which not any of those things is to be seene which you mention so that we may easily coniecture what we are like to find of you in the sequell when in the beginning you are not ashamed to lye so palpablie For Luther begins his preface thus The Epistle of S. Iames though reiected of Antiquitie I much commeÌ„d hold very fitting profitable And in
away Aeneas take Pius What shal I further recite Petrarch Mantuan and other Poets both learned and famous which feared not with Satiricall verses to inueigh against the Pope and Cardinals and the whole clergie all things were then so out of order that all sinnes might without controulâ—â—ent both be practised and openly blamed I need not to seeke farre remember what Cornelius Bishop of Bicontine not many yeares agoe at the Councell of Trent spake openly in the presence and audience of the whole Church whose witnes must needs be strong and effectuall against you though of it selfe it bee little worth Thus he saith Cornel. Bicontin in concil Crident Would to God they had not all with one consent turned from religion to superstition from faith to infidelity from Christ to Antichrist from God to Epicurisme Behold the Marks of your Church suâ—â—â—stition infidelity Antichrist Epicure for all this you are not ashamed to affirme that no Historie either yours or ours hath bewrayed or testified any such matter But Campian the more you defend the integrity of your Church the more you cause vs to manifest the corruptions of it Our aduersaries say you doe grant that the Romane Church was once a holy Church This we confesle and that then it was holy when Paul published those her worthie praise which you remember and yet those praises by you mentioned doe not belong to that Church alone but were giuen also to other Churches Rom. 1. â— For what if the faith of the Romanes were published in the whole world this was no proper or peculiar priuiledge of that Church Hath not the Apostle written asmuch of the Church of Thessalonica 1. Thess 1.8 Your faith to wards God is spread in all places What if hee made mention of the Romanes without ceasing Rom. 1.9 so did he also incessantly remember the Thessalonians 1. Thess 1.3 What though he doubted not but hee should come vnto the Romanes in abundance of the blessing of Christ Rom. 15.29 thinke you his comming into other Churches was lesse fruitfull Rom. 16.19 What if all Churches saluted the Romanes and their obedience was euery where spoken of know you not that all the Saints vsed to salute one another or suppose you that other Churches were not as obedient to the Apostles as this But we grant you that at this time it was holy what would you more Act. 28. Then also when Paul preached the Gospell there in his fauourable restraint This also wee grant what more 1. Pet. 5.13 And then also when Peter gathered and gouerned the Church there calling it Babylon We deny not this And though I can be well content that you call Rome Babylon for I doubt not but it is the same of which h DVR Saint Iohn speaketh of Rome vvhen it yet abhorred the saith of Christ aâ—d persecuted Christians WHIT. pag. 512. Nay S. Jâ—â—n described Rome as it was restored and reedified by Antichrist for when â—e wâ—â—teth Apoc 18. â— who seeth not that this cannot be vnderstood of auncient Rome but of Rome when it was the habitation of Saints rather then Diuels and the hold of the Spirit of God rather then foule spirits Iohn writes so much in the Reuelation the mother of whoredomes and abominations of the earth yet I cannot be so easily perswaded that i DVR Yet Oecumenius Hierome Eusebius Tertullian to say nothing of others do graunt it And to make question of Peters being at Rome is as if you should doubt whether euer Romulus Iulius Caeser or Pompeie was there For if Cyprian Eusebius Doâ—oâ—heus Epiphanius Optatus Hicrom and many others may not be beleeued vvhat shall euer be certeine in any History WHIT pag. 508. All these testimonies proue nothing that I haue either doubted of or denied for I desire authority of Scriptures not the opinions of men I desire euery man who desireth saluation to weigh this one thing well That whereas the whole gouernment Hierarchy of the Papacie hangeth on this soundation that S. Peter was Bishop of Rome yet they haue no word in the Scriptures to shew that he euer was so and so the whole Papacie is hanged vpon the coniectures of men as vpon a rotten threed for what if many Histories say he was there if the Scripture say no such thing what assurance can be of it for matter of faith the mind must needs bee suspicious and doubtfull it is true that the receiued opinion is that hee was there But who knoweth not that that which one deliuereth at the first may increase by fame and be by many reserued to posterity At the first an auncient writer mentioned S. Peters apposing of Symon Magus and saith it was at Rome and him haue many followed since and hence from the common rumors and suspiâ—ions of men sprung vp the Popes chairâ— And who shall then giue assurance of faith in this thing when there is no place of Scripture for it nay when many places are against it These specially Galat. 2.7.9 Now if S. Peter should be Bishop of Rome for so many yeares it vvas against both his order of life and his faith Act. 28.22.23 Novv they could not be so ignorant if that S. Peter for so many yeares before had gouerned that Church S. Paul abode in Rome tvvo yeares and thence writ many Epâ—stles and in them spake of many of the brethren but neuer once named S. Peter supole you hee vvould bee tvvo yeares from his Church Galat. 2.1.2 But he ought rather to haue been at Rome as a good Bishop ought to be vvith his flocke vnlesse you can proue he might substitute a Vicar Besides the Histories themselues are in such â—ariety of opinions that you can hardly tell vvhom to follovv some say he came â—o Rome in the first yeare of Claudâ—us the Emperour some in the second some in the fouâ—â—â— and some in the tenth yeare and it may be that none of these is true sure it is all cannot be true Peter meanes Rome in this place here Campian you are alwaies at a nonplus could yet neuer proâ—ue that Peter was at Rome But you take this for granted and as alreadie prooued which if any man once deny then like the Mathematicians you haue done and can goe no further But why may I not reasonably think that Peter meaneth that Babylon which once was the chiefe Citie of the Assiâ—ians in which Citie certeinly were many Iewes Galat. 2.9 vnto whom Peter was appointed Apostle peculiarly If I should set downe that which I could alleage in this cause I feare I should trie your patience too much In the meane time I allow well your confession that Rome is Babylon and hereafter at your leisure you may declare vpon what occasion the name of it was altered You may not now bee angrie with vs if following Peters example from hencefoorth wee also call Rome Babylon Now I hope at length you will rest and be
pluck in peeces the authority of the Magistrates which he did alwaies defend most diligently against the Anabaptists a DVR It they be bound to obey hovv are their consciences free from the religion of them Jf vvas a humane lavv Act. 15.20 touching strangled and blood And Rom. 13.2.5 and 1. Pet. 2.13.13 WHIT. pag. 730. To the first I answere that some things may be done vvhereunto vve are not bound in conscience vve must â—bey humane and politike lavves because they are necessary for peace and publike tranquillitie Yet vve must distinguish humane lavves from Diuine For the Lawes of God must simplie bee obeyed without any difference of time place and circumstance but the lawes of men as he circumstances require For example he that is a Romane and liueth at Rome must obey the Romane lavves If hee goe into Persia he is not bound to keepe there the Romane lavvea vpon any necessitie Then they bind not the conscience for then should they in all places bind alike 2. That Law of the Apostles did not simplie binde the conscience but in respect of the weake brother lest he should be offended vvhom the lavv of God bindeth not to offend Againe this was the law not of meÌ„ but of the spirit of God 3. For the places of S. Paul and S. Peter I answere the Apostles doth not insnare the conscience vvith euery particular precept of the Magistrate but they speake of his authoritie which is sacred and holy and cannot with any good conscience bee contemned It is the commandement of God that we obey Magistrates and this doth bind the conscience in generall therefore he is to be obeyed for conscience sake but his particular lawes do not bind the conscience Againe when we obserue their particular lawes wee doe not so stand vpon the precepts as if doing of them would quiet the conscience and satisfie it but wee looke to the end that is the will of God vvhich commandeth obedience to honest and iust lavves Christians are free not that they may obey no lawes and liue only to themselues but that they may vnderstand that their consciences and minds are freed from making the lawes of men to be religion The Pope of Rome hath bound the consciences of Christian men with his Decrees and Canons and thereby hath laid such a snare vpon their minds as that they might thinke they are no lesse bound by the Popes Canons then by Christs precepts Therfore Luther freeth Christian liberty from those euill opinions wherein it had bene infolded and bringeth it into that state in which Christ would haue it to be that we should acknowledge him only to be the Lord of our conscience and that we should obey the lawes of men with a free conscience We are now at length come to the bottome of this puddle which although you haue stirred with all your diligence yet you haue not found so much as one paradoxe or a peece of a paradoxe of ours But now if I would but a little make search into the most filthy puddles of your writers as to recken vp what they haue affirmed of God of the Prouidence of God of Predestination of the Person and Offices of Christ of Originall sin of the Law of Righteousnes of the Sacraments of Purgatory of the Pope of Rome and of the rest of the greatest controuersies in Religion how many Carts should I fill with paradoxes horrible to be spoken or thought But it is better not at this time to stirre this common Sewre and otherwhere I hope occasion will be giuen to speake hereof Now in that you would ioine the Lutherans and Zwinglians together therein surely you haue not offended vs for we both reuerence Luther as a father and we embrace them as very deere brethren in Christ And verily we hope it will come to passe that this controuersie which is betweene vs being compounded we shall all with ioint minds and studies set vpon the common enemie As for that you say touching your selfe I am easily perswaded to thinke it to be true whether it be that you speake it hartily or sainedly For what I beseech you haue you alledged for which wee should not rather thinke you to be some Rhetoricall Actor vpon a Stage then a learned and experienced Diuine Campian if you be wise be quiet for beleeue me you cannot indure the force and violence of this combate Let those choise and old souldiers put themselues into the camp who are if not more bold to prouoke yet more wary to auoid blowes and much more skilfull in all discipline of warre To enter combate with these both the Vniuersities haue many worthie men and I trust there will neuer want excellent Diuines to wage perpetuall warre with the broken bands of Antichrist EDMVND CAMPIAN The ninth Reason which is the Aduersaries Sophismes IT is an auncient Prouerb that a pore-blinde man may be a King amongst the blinde Amongst the ignorant sort of people many times a coloured argument taketh place the which the Philosophers schoole doth hisse at The * This is false you can produce none of our sophismes and those you speake of are yours not ours Aduersarie herein much offendeth but namely in foure kinds of fallaces he is well practised which I had rather disclose in the Vniuersitie schooles then in the common streets whither only rude people do resort The first fault is called Schiamachia Schiamachia which is a forcible striking of the ayer and beating of shadowes on this sort against those that are single and haue * Those oathes and vovves are taken and made against the scriptures sworne and solemnely vowed to liue in Chastity because Marriage is good but Virginitie is better They bring scriptures that speake very * Marriage is honorable in all conditions of men therefore in Ministers honorably of Matrimony 1. Cor. 7. Whom do they pierce with their darts Against the * All he can do are his duties therefore there can be no merits merits of a Christian man dipped in Christes bloud without the which there is no merit at all They recite testimonies which commaund vs to put our affiance neither in nature nor in the lawe but in the bloud of Christ whom do they confute Against those that honor Saints as the most acceptable seruants of Christ there are vouched whole pages of scripture which prohibit the * They vvho vvorship many Saints vvorship many Gods Papists vvorship many Saints ergo worshipping of many gods Such Arguments as these which I see swarme amongst the Aduersaries cannot hurt vs well may they be loathsome vnto you The second fault is Logomachia Logomachia which is a leaning of the matter it selfe and contentiously to striue about a bare word Find if thou canst say they this word Missa 1. Masse or Purgatorium 1. Purgatorie in the scripture What if I cannot Is there not a * A most foolish and vniust comparison Trinity a consubstantiality or
also happily at thy commaund though not to be drawne with thy hand speaking to the Pope WHIT. pag. 747. Duraeus is ashamed of this sophisme buâ— yet he fathereth it vpon Bernard which also Iohannes a Capistrano of the Pope and Councels p 77. and others of them haue handled and Pope Boniniface girt himselfe with a sword in signe hereof but this place speaketh nothing at all for any such power Pope must beare both swords The seruant is not aboue his master therefore i DVR What Catholike euer taught or wrote thus howbeit the Fathers of the Sinuessan Councell said The chiefe seate is iudged of no man WHIT. pag. 749. Thus you will make the Pope no Catholike who saith Dist 40. si Pâ—pa The Pope may bee reproued of no mortall man though he leade with him innumerable people vnto hell And who knoweth not these two pillers of Popery the Church of Rome cannot erre whatsoeuer it teacheth and the Pope may not be accused whatsoeuer â—e doth The Bishops of the Sinuessan Synode spake to Marcellinus the Pope who had denied Christ and committed Idolatrie and might bee accused by the Popes owne lawes so that in citing that authoritie you contradict both your selfe and your lawes it is lawfull for no man to accuse or reproue the Pope Christ prayed that Peters faith should not faile him k DVR Christ made Peter his Vicar on earth and by his prayer obtained that his Vicars faith might not faile by force vvherof the Pope cannot erre as Augustine and Cyprian also perceiued WHIT pag. 750. It is not true that Christ made Peter his Vicar nor doth it follow Peters faith failed not therefore no Popes faith hath failed who are his successors for Popes haue done and may fall into heresies as you will confesse and may erre in faith saith Pope Boniface Dâ—st 40. Papa which he could not do it this argument of yours vvere true Further Christ prayed for all his Apostles and the whole Church shal we say Christs prayer was lesse effectuall for the rest then for Peter If it be not then none of their successors could erre no more then Peters which I suppose you will not affirme And Augustine and Cyprian neuer reasoned as you do you abuse their names therefore the Pope cannot erre The vulgar people commeth seldome and negligently to the Lords Supper l DVR If you beleeued the Prophet Malachie or the Masse you vvould confesse this argument to be good WHIT pag. 753. You can neuer proue your Masse by the Prophet Malachie who speaketh of the prayers of the godly as Tertullian Eusebius and Jerome expound him and if the Masse were a sacrifice indeed as you call it the peoples negligence is no sufficient cause to make it priuate and yet to profit the people yea though they be absent you may aswel abuse the Word it selfe so and say it is inough when it is in publike it the Priest handle it and heare it and beleeue it alone yet the people being absent and not dreaming of any such thing may be saued by it therefore the Priest may celebrate priuate Masse Christ admitted onlie his Apostles to Suppe therefore Priests alone must m DVR The people also receiue the vvhole Sacrament vnder one kind WHIT pag. 754. It is childish dotage to say so as though one part of a thing were the vvhole or as if Christ appointing both bread and wine ordained more then a whole Sacrament that Pope was wiser vvhich said of certaine heretikes that refrained from the Cup as you doâ— De concil dist 2. cap. Comperimus Let them either receiue the vvhole Sacrament or refuse all DVR Christs vvords Drinke yee all of this proue nâ—t that all Christians must doe so WHIT. pag. 755. They doe proue it as those vvords take eate doe proue that all must eate and you may as vvell keepe both the elements from the people as one contrarie to S. Paul 1. Cor. 11.23 DVR The Passeouer might be eaten vvithout vvine WHIT. pag. 756. It might because God had not commaunded vvine but Christ himselfe commaundeth it in his Supper 1. Cor. 11.45 DVR The common people are aâ—t bound to drinke of the Cap for S. Paul saith As oft as ye drinke it to signifie they were not commanded so to doe WHIT. So he saith of the bread also As of as yee eate 1. Cor. 11.26 so that by your argument neither is the bread commanded them receiue the Sacrament the people ought to bee contented only with one part The title which Pilate fastned vpon the Crosse was written in Hebrew Greeke Latine therfore n DVR No Catholike doth so reason we say that title had in it a mysterie and Augustine proueth by it that the vvord coessentâ—all 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 may be vsed in the Creede WHIT. pag. 757. Papists often reason thus as all men knovve which read their writings though you bee ashamed of it Tell vs what mysterie you meane if it bee worth the labour as for Augustine hee speakes no word that makes here for your cause yet you blush not to quote him prayers must bee read in the Churches in no language but either Hebrew or Greeke or Latine Harding That which is holy must not be giuen to dogges o DVR VVe say not that all but that some of the people may not haue the Scriptures committed to them WHIT. pag. 758. Who doubteth but that vvisedome is to be vsed in teaching the people and that they vvhich shevv themselues dogges and hogges must be barred from the Scriptures but this is nothing to the present question vvhether this reason be good vvhich Papists sometimes vse and vvhich here you should haue spoken to and not thus vvander therfore the vulgar people must be forbidden to reade the Scriptures This is my bodie therefore the p DVR Christ said it vvay his bodie WHIT. pag. 759. Christ by an vsuall phrase of Scripture called the thing signifying by the name of the thing signified because of the sacramentall ioint receiuing of both to vvit of the bread vvith the mouth and of his bodie by faith Againe if that vvhich vvas in Christs hands vvere his reall body vvhen he said so then vvas transubstantiation before vvhich you deny and then he had tvvo bodies but if it vvere bread then is there a metonymie in his vvords as vvee truly say bread is turned into Christs bodie Fall downe before his footestoole q DVR Ambrose and Augustine reasoned so from this Scripture WHIT p. 761. That is false they teach onely that vve must vvorship Christ in the mysteries and Sacrament not the myâ—teries and Sacrament themselues therefore the Sacrament must be worshipped God is no respecter of persons Pighius r DVR That vvas Pighius his error but the iudgement of Catholike Vniuersities is that foreseeing of merits is no cause of Predestination WHIT. pag. 762. Thus you fall from your champion Pighius in vvords
Scriptures If we were commanded to search the fathers of the Church vnwritten verities the Popes Canons wee would willingly set vp our rest there but when wee are called from them to the diligent search of the Scriptures doe not much blame vs if we so farre as you speake subscribe to the fathers as they agree with the Scriptures For you cannot iustly blame that in vs which you confesse is commendable in them d DVR If you thinke Christ commanded all you are greatly deceiued for hovv should the rude and ignorant search the Scriptures vvho as Augustine vvitnesseth must be saued not by sharpnesse of vnderstaÌ„ding but by simplicity of beleeuing Moreouer Christ gaue vnto the people Pastors and Doctors and not the bookes of the Scriptures WHIT. pag. 417. Christ verily spake to the people not to the learned and if he commanded all the Iewes to search the Scriptures why not all Christians but that they ought is proued by these places Act. 17.11 Coll. 3.16 Chrysostome vpon that place Hom. 9. Hierome vpon the same Origen in Jsaiam hom 2. Chrysost in Euangel Ioan. hom 13. Further if the people be ignorant you take the way to keepe them so But they verily ought to haue knowledge and you very learnedly make an argument from their defect Augustine as you would haue it doth not maintaine the ignorance of the people only he requireth not of them any subtile knowledge all must beleeue vvhich none can doe vvithout the knovvledge of the Scripture but the same quicknes of vnderstanding is not required in all Finally Christ who gaue them teachers gaue them also the Word neither vvere the Pastors to teach them any thing but the Scriptures vvhy then speake you thus as if these things ordeined one vnder another vvere contrary It is vvorthy the obseruing that in your iudgement Christ gaue not the Scriptures vnto the people if then they reade them they meddle vvith other mens right For Christ commanded vs aswell as them to search the Scriptures That therefore which is inioyned vs both to search it ought to be the purpose of both to finde out And doe you iudge it equall e DVR VVho vvill beleeue that you haue found out that they could not or vvho are you that accuse them of ignorance and error WHIT. pag. 423. I verily acknowledge that the Fathers excelled in all kind of learning I am so farre from accusing them of ignorance But if the Fathers haue often and greatly erred which you must confesse vvhether you vvill or no vvhy may not vve vvho are commanded to reade the Scriptures asvvvell as they hold fast the truth vve haue found and reiect the errors they haue deliuered vvho vvhile they liued ingenuously confessed themselues ignorant of many things and that they erred not in a fevv and vvould also doe no lesse if they vvere aliue againe that if they haue erred in searching wee should treade in their steps and reiect the trueth wee haue found out For wheresoeuer they find out the truth they sought after wee receiue it and consent with them And therefore Campian make you no doubt we speake vnfeinedly wee will subscribe to the fathers while they consent to the Scriptures Doth this thing please you so it seemeth For you say You will see that these most ancient writers S. Denys S. Cyprian S. Athanasius S. Basil S. Gregory Nazianzene S. Ambrose S. Hierome S. Chrysostome S. Augustine and S. Gregory the great shall come foorth well armed with the whole furniture of the bible But what if they will not obey your commandement neither serue for wages in your tents will you compell them against their willes to beare armes in your campes It is more then you can doe they will not indure themselues to bee thus compelled or forced You call them man by man but they wil not answere to those names yea both these now named by you and all auncient fathers doe proclaime open warre against you and if you please let vs spend a little time in the triall of it This Deuis whosoeuer he was cannot be on your side while you maintaine f DVR VVe Catholikes neither defend nor acknowledge a priuate Massâ— for all Masses are said by a publike Minister of the Church in the name of the whole and for the saluation of all the children of the Church is it offered WHIT. pag. 428. It is childish to contend about the Word you defend such a Masse as the Church knew not in the daies when Denys liued for your Masses are performed by one but the forme he speaketh of is performed by many And what if a publike Minister do it yet that being done of one must needs be priuate specially when either there are no people present or if they be present yet they do nothing but looke on and what profit can come to them by that hee doth as if that meate the Priest eateth feedeth the people Besiâ—es Christ neuer ordained such an offering himselfe once offered is the sacrifice which is profitable to the whole Church Againe what needeth the people once to communicant with him or what greater fruits shall they haue by it if they doe Lastly if the whole people may receiue saluation from that Masse which they neither tast see nor yet dreame of why will you not grant that Christ may be present to our faith though we be farre disioyned from his body priuate Masse For he hath described the publike communion of the whole Church such as Christ at the first instituted and the ancient Church euer held The very same thing doth Iustine the Philosopher and martyr Iustin. Apol 2. who in his Apologie before Anthony the Emperour layd open the order of discipline which Christ held in his holy assembly At that time the whole people receiued g DVR Jf you had but lightly read ouer Iustine you would neuer haue been so impudent for hee altogether alloweth our iudgement and no vvhere speaketh he of bread and wine giuen to the people WHIT. pag. 430. If you had read the place you might haue seene the contrary to your opinion and to all that you say his owne words shall manifest all They who with vs are called Deacons giue to euery one that is present part of the bread wine and water for which thankes are giuen Can any thing be said more contrary to your and more manifest for our opinion bread wine now with you they receiue neither h DVR Yet Cyprian vvrit thus Epist 55. The premacie is giuen to S. Peter that it might appeare there is one Church and one chaire WHIT. pag. 433. They are not Cyprians words but Pamelius vvho hath corrupted Cyprian bringing out of the margent into the text as appeareth by auncient copies And Gratian also obserued the same Causa 24.9.1 loquitur Cyprian makes all the Apostles equall with Peter Cyprian de Simplicitat praelat Lib. 1. Epist 4. and directly affirmeth that they haue like honour
and authoritie with him and forbids all appeales to the Bishop of Rome Therefore he must needes deest your Pope who preferreth himselfe both in dignity authority before all other Bishops from all parts drawes vnto his courts all appeales i DVR Cyprian in this place speaketh not at all touching any appeale WHIT. pag. 434. If you consider the place well you shall find that he inueigheth against certaine false Bishops who being condemned by the voices and censures of the Bishops of Afrike for iust causes vvould haue the causes pleaded againe at Rome before Cornelius the Bishop And in his discourse 1. He shevved that causes ought to be heard vvhere the crimes are committed And so not things done in Afrike at Rome 2. He affirmeth that euery Bishop hath his portion of the flocke for which he must giue an account Then not the Bishop of Rome the vvhole nor the administration of all causes finally he calleth them desperate and forlorne men vvho thought the authority of the Bishops of Afrike to bee lesse then of the Bishops of other countries and so vvith reproach hee reiecteth the supreame authoritie of the Bishop of Rome Is there heere any thing lesse then vve haue affirmed Lactantius writeth that it is a thing without questioÌ„ Lactan. 2. cap. 19. k DVR Lactantius speaketh not of the Images of Christians but of the Idols of the Heathen vvhich he condemneth because they are made of the earth besides the Ieves had their Cherubins WHIT. pag. 436. He nameth not Idols but Images such as your Church is full of and so can there be no religion in it Besides your Images are no more heauenly then theirs but made of the earth as theirs who pretended for themselues as he vvriteth lib. 2. cap. 2. as you do that they vvorshipped not the Images but the God expressed by them Further for the Cherubins they were placed in the most holy place into vvhich the people might not enter not yet looke in and shevv vs particular precepts for yours as they had for theirs and vve haue done But he that commanded theirs forbiddeth euery vvhere all others There can be no religion wheresoeuer there is an image If hee now liued and saw your Churches full of images would he acknowledge any signe of true Religion Athanasius affirmeth Athanas conts a Gentas That the holy Scriptures giuen by inspiration are sufficient to instruct men in all trueth wherein with one word hee hath put to slight the whole armies of your l DVR VVill not all your Vniuersity men account you a cosener vvhen Athanasius ioyneth the bookes of the Fathers with the Scriptures WHIT. pag. 438. If Athanasius say asmuch as I affirme The Scriptures are sufficient of themselues vvhy do you reptoach me but he addeth the bookes of the Fathers he doth but not as traditions differing from the Scriptures but as Commentaries vpon them For saith he by reading of them a man may in some measure vnderstand the sense of the Scripture These vvords make not for you neither against vs therefore I vsed neither cosening nor disceite traditions Epiphanius sharply reprooueth certaine foolish women Epipham lib. 3. Haeres 79. who worshipped the virgine Mary with a certaine new kind of worship and condemneth all that superstition m DVR Epiphanius speaketh nothing of the adoring of the Saints but reproueth â—omen for offering vp sacrifices to the Virgin Mary aâ— to a Gâ—â—ldâ—â—â—e WHIT. pag. 440. Nay he speaketh against the adoration and honoring of Saints and not of sacrificing only his vvords are plaine â—et none of the Saints be adored The vvord he vseth signifieth to bovv and prostrate our selues and to vvorship one vvith Diuine honor vvhich being proper to God you impiously giue to the Virgin Mary and to other innumerable Saints Let none saith he worship the Virgine Mary What would he say if hee now saw not onely foolish women but also men and all mortall wights n DVR No Câ—tâ—oâ—ike doth offer vp sacrifice or performe vowes to the Virgin Mary WHIT. Yet you confesse you do such things to the honor of the Virgin and other Saints I pray you what may be the meaning of this you offer vp sacrifices and vowes to God in honor of the Saints let me demaund of you as Epiphanius of these women what Scriputre â—peaketh any thing of this matter Then answere your Masses are they offered to the Virgin Mary or for her whether soeuer Epiphanius saith It is foolish strange and that vvhich proceeded from the spirit of Diuels Againe who knoweth not that you offer vp prayers and intercessions to the Virgin Mary and all Saints And no man is found either so greatly couetous or so little superstâ—tious but he voweth somewhat to some Saint specially to the Virgin Mary offering vp sacrifices and vowes to the Virgine Mary Basil in Epist ad Cleric Neocaesariae Basil is the author that in his dayes there was a o DVR Basil doth not say it was the custome of all Churches WHIT. pag. 442. It seemeth you haue not read Basil reade the place and you shall find these words there The câ—â—ome we now keepe is consonant and agreeable to all the Churches of God And he reckoneth the Churches of Aegypt Afrike Thebes Palestine and all who vse singing of Psalmes custome in all Churches that the people repeated the Psalmes in the holy assemblies But in your Churches the people can p DVR As if the publike prayers of the Church did not profit the people vnlesse they vnderstand the 〈◊〉 what a foolish dreame is this WHIT. pag. 443. We had rather dreame with the Apostle then watch with you for thus S. Paul speaketh 1. Cor. 14 4.5.6 He that speaketh a strange tongue speaketh not vnto men but vnto God vers 6. If I come vnto you speaking diuers tongues what shall I profit you Strange tongues then profit not vnlesse your tongues haue some more Diuine power then the Apostles tongue had neither heare nor vnderstand those things which are read but are onely deluded with ridiculous gestures and pompous shewes q DVR Gregorie neuer thought so but in the same place he commendeth the solitary life as more excellent then any humane condition neither speaketh he of the common life of Christians but of that vvhich is spent in the duties of charity WHIT. pag. 444. I proue it easily out of his words Hierome the Philosopher saith he proposed vnto himselfe to know whether of our liues vvas more to be vvished for and more profitable to the end he might make choice of it And when he knew that euery man was not borne for himselfe only but for all others who beare the same nature with him he embraced this common life rather then that solitary life Doth he not now preferre this life and from the praise he giueth the other he hath somewhat detracted when he sheweth that it is only for themselues and so lesse
troubled thoughts But holy men diligently prepared themselues and so came to this Sacrament hauing quiet minds free froÌ„ guilt of sinne And in the Primitiue times they who had fallen were not admitted to the Eucharist but after coÌ„fession full satisfaction made for their sins And then a Deacon was wont to crie Holy things are for holy men WHIT. pag. 718. You haue not tasted what true faith is if you thinke all sorrowes doubts are remoued so soone as faith is begotten The Prophet often remembreth his sorrowes Psal 42.5.6 32.4 And this all the faithfull haue experience of and yet are vpheld by their faith They are the best prepared who haue the greatest sorrowes for their sins and in the word and Sacrament seeke a salue for them For wherefore was the supper ordained but to strengthen and confirme our faith Therfore the best prepared haue many temptations and sorrowes in themselues The custome of the Church proueth nothing against this For will you account them wicked and prophane whose consciences are frighted with the sense and bitter sorrowes for their sinnes So shall you wickedly condemne the most holie seruants of God Only they do rightly receiue the Lords Supper who bring sorrowful afflicted coÌ„founded consciences And so it is indeed for they are no right receiuers who trusting to their owne merits come audaciously but they who heing opprested with the greatues of their sinnes Psal 51.19 doe desire to bee eased For they which are whole desire not the Physitian A contrite and broken hart is an acceptable sacrifice to God wherefore they which haue greatest feeling of their sinnes and sorrow for them to them that heauenly food is wont to bee most wholesome Good Lord who would euer thinke it might come to passe that anie Christian should dislike these things But is there any thing else x DVR VVho knoweth not that the Nouatians vvere condemned of the vvhole Church for denying this authoritie to the Priests And that it vvas an old custome of the Church as Tertullian hath it that penitentials vvere sent to none but to the Priests to whom as Ambrole Hierome Chrysostome writ the keyes and power of binding and loosing are committed WHIT. pag. 720. That you speake of the Nouatians and the custome of the Church toucheth not Luther for they admitted neither repentance not confession in the Church did Luther euer any such thing or did he euer reproue the custome of the Church that they who had offended publikely did publikely testiue their repentance It was a priuate auricular confession of all sinnes which hee reproued which is without testimonie either of Scripture of sincere Antiquitie which made Nectarius Bishop of Constantinople put it out of the Church for the offence of a Deacon For the Fathers by which you would establish your keyes we haue against them Augustine in Ioan. tract 124. and Theophil in Matth. 18. You may confesse you sinnes but to any bodie y DVR VVhat is then more manifest then that hee may giue a Sacrament which neuer inteÌ„ded 〈◊〉 VVe beleeue that Priests as Iudges can absolue the guilty from their sins WHIT pag. 722. When as faith dependeth vpon no mans will and faith bringeth remission of sins another mans will caÌ„not hinder but that they who beleeue may haue the pardon of their sins For that to the Centurion Mat. 8.13 is to euâ—ry man As thou beleeuest so bâ—â—t â—â—to thee not as another wil. If absolution were then in the Ministers will it should not be as men beleeue but as their Minister thinketh than vvhich nothing can be more absâ—â—d What skilleth it vvhether the Minister be in â—est or earnest if I beleeue seriously his iest shall not hurt mee And what is more miâ—erable then to baâ—g the dignitie of the Sacrament vpon the thought and intention of the Minister which if it were true of SacrameÌ„ts yet what is that to absolution which neuer was a SacrameÌ„t wheras you say you beleeue that the Priesâ—â— do absolue men as Iudges do I do not find fault with it And such â—uâ—ges are they as Priests vnder the Law were of diseases The chiefe Prâ—â—st iudged of the Leprosie which he neither inflicted nor cured So the Minister doth pronounce and iudge all beleeuers to be absolued and the contrarie vpon the wicked and vnbeleeuers who if he do absolue you but in iest so as you beleeue you are absolued And why not for it is not need full either to number sins by our fingers or to vse a Priest or a Frier such a one as your selfe Iam. 1.16 1. Ioh. 1.9 We may confesse our faults one to another so as Friers may be idle hereafter And whosoeuer beleeueth that his sinnes are forgiuen him him saith it selfe absolues whether he be absolued in iest or in earnest Well make haste To reade prayers by the houre belongeth not to Priests but to lay meÌ„ What your Priests do or what they thinke they ought to do it concernes me not Let them reade let them pray let them say Masse let them drinke let them play and in a word let them be alwayes like themselues It behoueth a Minister of the Gospell not to recite certaine Collects by an houre-glasse and to make his walke in them certaine spaces of houres but to giue daily diligence vnto reading 1. Tim. 4.13 exhortation and doctrine which things your Priests haue euer thought to be farre different from their office But these same prayers by the houre albeit they do not ill agree to your sacrificing priests who vnlesse they should speÌ„d the time on this fashion would neuer goe out of Stewes and Tauernes yet are they vnworthie of a Christian man because of their infinite z DVR Js it superstition to sing Psalmes vnto God to pray for remission of sinnes and other temporall and spirituall graces and to performe other exercises of religion vvho knovveth not that Christians had their night Psalmes that the Hymnes of Ambrose vvere at set times In the Acts vve read that Peter and Iohn vvent into the Temple at the ninth houre of prayer WHIT. pag. 726. These things I reproued not as superstitious and impious but that all the time which should be bestovved in instructing the people should be spent in saying their daily appointed houres specially in that tongue vvhich not the people and often times not the Priest himselfe doth vnderstand No man is ignorant that Christians had their night houres but it vvas because they might not assemble themselues in the day time vvill you keepe this custome and not be accounted superstitious The Hymnes of Ambrose are full of piety and sarre from superstitious chaunting As for the Apostles they vvent not vp to sacrifice nor to keepe Canonicall houres but to instruct the people who came thither to the euening sacrifice in great multitudes superstition Let vs heare the rest Christians are free from the lawes of men That neuer came into Luthers mind to