things but in scoffing manner if you doe seriously hold them prooue them seriously and not with ridiculous authorities The 11. reason Triall of truth That it appertaineth to the Church to trie and to discerne Spirits as also to determine and to decide doubts we confesse M. D. Trie all things saith Paul 1 Thess 5. 1. Ioh. 4. and S. Iohn commandeth vs to prooue the Spirits But the question is whether you are the Church or no Quid ergo facturi sumus what shall we doe I answer with Augustine propounding this question cap. 2. de vnitat that we must seeke the Church of Christ in his word qui veritas est optimè novit corpus suum who is truth best knoweth his bodie Where you say that we cannot otherwise but receiue the scriptures vpon the catholike Romane churches credit and also three Creedes and some articles of beleefe as the holy Ghost to proceede from the Father and the Sonne and many tearmes as person Trinitie consubstantiall Sacraments I will answer these points seuerally And first I desire to know what reason you haue to make a particular church as the Romane church Catholike The Romane church if it were a true church is but a part of the catholike church It is Catholike saith Augustine because it is per totum through the whole world de vnit cap. 5. Cyril in his 18. chap. among many reasons of the name giueth this Quia per vniversum sit orbem terrarum diffusa because it is diffused thorough the whole world Is it all one to say I beleeue the Catholike Church and to say I beleeue the Romane church To leaue this matter and to come to your speech that it is not possible to know the Bible which is vsed amongst Christians to be the true word of God indeede but vpon the Romane churches credit First such idle questions the olde heretikes the Manichees demanded of S. Augustine to whome S. Augustine answered Lib. 32. cap 21. cont Faust Man Si quaeratis à nobis vnde nos sciamus Apostolorum esse istas literas breuiter vobis respondemus inde nos scire vnde vos scitis illas literas esse Manichaei If you demand of vs how we know that these be the Apostles writings we shape you this short answer as you know that your writings are of the heretike Manichee Secondly I would know how you can prooue any church to be the church but by the Scriptures if you cannot prooue the church but by the Scriptures then the Authoritie of the church dependeth vpon them and not è contra Thirdly we receiue not the Scriptures vpon the Romane churches credit for then we should haue receiued also the bookes which are Apocrypha as well as the true Canon of the bible for the Romane church doth receiue them Fourthly we receiue the Scriptures from the Scriptures themselues Many men by the heauenly maiestie of the Scriptures are mooued to receiue them before they know which is the true church Gonarus con Cost Iustin Martyr saith that Christs words haue in thâ—â— feare to perswade in dialogo cum Try Mantuan de pat l. 3. c. 2. saith thus Firmiter scripturas ideo credimus quòd diuinam inspirationem intra accipimus we steadfastly beleeue the scriptures because we haue receiued an inward inspiration from God He that will despise the Scriptures will despise the Church He that will not beleeue there is a God because the Scriptures teach it will not beleeue it because the Church teacheth the same The Scriptures were credited before the Romane church was ens or in rerum natura The Apostles beleeued the Gospel of our Sauiour Christ before he wrought any miracle because it was testified by the scriptures Ioh. 1.46 Adam and others beleeued without the church Our Sauiour Christ preached Repent and beleeue the Gospel which some did without the Church Eusebius in his third booke and 21. chap. writeth that the Gospels of Thomas and others were reiected because that phraseos character à consuetudine Apostolica variat ipsa sententia propositum eorum quae in illis adferuntur plurimum à veritate rectae doctrinae discrepant the style doth varie from the Apostolicall manner and the matter and the intent of those things which are alleadged in them doe much differ from the truth of right doctrine The consent of Scriptures the miracles and prophesies with many other arguments draw a man to credit the same yea the deadly hatred which the world beareth vnto them perswadeth not a little Sacris Scripturis saith Bellarmine nihil est notius Lib. 1. cap. 2. de vâ—â— Dâ—i nihil certius there is nothing more knowne and certaine then the Scriptures Read Bellarmine your selfe M. Doctor that he may satisfie you in this point But if we beleeue the Scriptures by the Church doth not the church teach vs to beleeue by the scriptures how can the church rightly perswade vs to beleeue but by preaching and producing of scriptures Ergo the scriptures are of much more force then the bare name of a church For propter quod vnumquodque tale est illud magis tale if the church induceth vs to beleeue then the scriptures doe much more because the church doth it by the scriptures The church is an excellent meanes ordained of God to bring men to beleefe neither doe we contemne the authoritie thereof The Samaritans beleeued by the testimonie of a woman Ioâ— 4. but afterward they beleeued because of Christ himselfe so the Church may bring one to beleeue but afterward to beleeue for the word it selfe The testimonie of Augustine is fraudulently alleadged by you his word is commoveret for he saith As there were many things which held him in the faith so if he were an infidel he would not beleeue the Gospel vnlesse the authoritie of the church with other things did mooue him ergo not onely the church and he speaketh if he were an infidell as the wordes going before doe plainly manifest Si invenies aliquem if thou shouldest finde any which yet doth not beleeue the Gospel what wouldest thou doe saying to thee I doe not beleeue then immediatly followeth your sentence I would not beleeue vnlesse c. Nicholaus Clenangis is worthie to be heard concerning this testimonie of Augustine Disp super Gâ—â— con Mirum sane prima specie satis videtur at the first fight it is maruell that he should preferre the authoritie of the church being a stranger in the earth before the authoritie of the Gospel seeing the Church may be deceiued in many things and the Gospel cannot Afterward he giueth the reason of Augustines speach because the Manichees did reiect Scriptures at their pleasures To stand yet somewhat longer in this testimonie Con. lib. 5 c. 1â— Augustine was mooued to beleeue by Ambrose is Ambrose his authoritie therefore equall to the scriptures God forbid whosoeuer listeth to read the 5. chap of the 6.
epist 1. ad Cor. cap. 7. But let Erasmus speake concerning this matter Qui sit how commeth it to passe saith he that the decrees of this Pope fight with the decrees of that Pope That I say nothing of Formosus doe not the decrees of Iohn the 22. and Nicholas fight one against another what should I speake of Innocentius and Coelestinus Pelagius and Gregories decrees one contrarie to another By these examples appeareth the Doctors vanitie The fourth reason conuersion of countries In this fourth reason the framer of it according to his custome beginneth with an vntruth saying that all countries which euer beleeued in Christ were first conuerted to his faith by such as either were precisely sent or at least wise had their authoritie from the Pope The Apostles which receiued authoritie from Christ himselfe not from Peter conuerted many countries That the Apostles receiued authoritie from Christ himselfe the scriptures are plaine in the 20. of Iohn our Sauiour saith As the father hath sent me so send I you what can be more plaine Paul saith of himselfe that he was an Apostle neither of men nor by men but by Iesus Christ How many countries did Paul conuert Concerning this land I spake something before Read Theodoret his 4. booke and 3. chap. where he reckneth England amongst the Christian lands Chrysostome as the same writer testifieth comparavit viros aemulatores Apostolicorum laborum eosque ad Scythias misit prouided men followers of the Apostles labours and sent them to the Scythians The Indians were conuerted by Frumentinus whome Athanasius ordained Bishop as the same author testifieth in his 1. booke and 12. chap. The people of Iberia were conuerted per captivam mulierem by a woman that was a captiue Ruff. lib. 1. cap. 10. by all which cleare and pregnant proofes euery man may see the boldnes of the authors assertion But now I come to reduce his reason into a syllogisme They which take paines in conuersion of countries hold the true religion But the Papists take paines in conuersion of countries ergo I denie the proposition and say to the Papists as our blessed Sauiour spake to the Pharisies Math. 23. woe be to you Papists for ye compasse sea and land to make one of your profession and when he is made ye make him twofold more the child of hell Heretikes haue laboured to conuert or rather to peruert men Paul in the 2. Tim. 3.13 affirmeth that euill men shall waxe worse and worse deceiuing and beeing deceiued The Arrians peruerted many kingdomes Read Sigebert in his chap. de regno Gothorum as witnes Theodoret and others writers As touching the conuersion of the west Indians if things be true that are reported Sadeel con are pos in novo illo orbe amplius decies centena millia barbarorum aut fame aut gladio perierunt in the new found world aboue tenne hundred thousand haue perished either by famine or by sword If our Sauiour Christ had saide Goe kill all nations when he saide Goe teach all nations he had fitted the Papists humour What Gregorie spent in founding Seminaries to restore Catholike religion I know not but this I am sure of that Papists haue taken paines in contriuing of treasons here in England But to returne to the Indies The people there liued not onely without all manner of knowledge of God but also wilde and naked without any ciuill gouernement Iuel 42. pag. beeing in this miserable estate some worshipped the sunne some familiar deuills what maruell then if they were easily ledde into any religion especially carrying such a shew of apparrell and other ceremonies But doe not the Protestants take paines in winning of soules vnto God Calvine not to speake of others read almost two hundred lectures euery yeare and preached aboue two hundred sermons Who conuerted England Scotland Ireland and other countries from Antichrist to Christ from the Masse to the Messias from Images to the seruice of the liuing God did not poore Luther Zwinglius Oecolampadius and other Protestants the ministers of England labour in their owne charges preaching in season and out of season God is as well glorified in the conuersion of a soule here as in other countries But doe the Papists now labour in conuerting of soules in times past it was not so hodie proh dolor saith Aeneas Sylvius Lib. 1. de geâ—â— con Basil now alas he is a rare Prelate which doth not preferre temporall things before spirituall things Againe Nos ignavia nostra nimia vitae cupiditate Christianam religionem ex toto orbe in angulum redegimus we by our lasinesse and great desire of life haue drawne religion out of the world into a corner of the same Clemangis in his booke which he wrote of the corrupt state of the Church speaketh thus Multò aequanimiùs ferunt decem millium animarum iacturam quà m decem solidorum Pontifices suas traditiones divinis longè mandatis anteponunt they had rather loose ten thousand soules then tenne shillings the Popes preferre their traditions farre before Gods commandements Thus then I returne the argument They which esteeme money more then the soules of men are not the true Church But the Papists esteeme money more then the soules of men Ergo. Whether M. Calvin sent ministers or no into new found lands I know not neither am I priuie to the successe they had Ezekiel was sent to the Iewes that they might know that there had beene a Prophet amongst them the fault is not in the doctrine but in the men who resist the same I will not dispute whether a wicked man may be a meanes to winne soules as a good master bestoweth a good almes by the ministerie of an euill seruant so also the mercifull Lord may call one to repentance by the meanes of another though he be an vnpenitent person The Doctors rayling vpon Luther Calvin and Peter Martyr calling his wife fustilugges fitteth the spirit of a Papist If Peter Martyrs lawfull wife deserueth the name of fustilugges what name doe the popish priests concubines deserue In that our Ministers trauell not without their wiues 1. Cor. â— I answer with Paul Haue we not power to lead about a sister a wife Beza his epistles and pistols are but words to fill vp pages and to wast paper But haue not the Protestants for-gone any worldly wealth to spread abroad religion why are they then exiles and haue witnessed their religion with their blood In a word Poperie gaineth more by wealth and armes then by conscience and if it gaineth any soundly it is by some reliques of truth which remaineth with them The fifth reason largenes of dominion through multitude of beleeuers That the Church which the Messias was to plant must be dispersed throughout all nations and kingdomes as the holy Prophets most plainly foreshewed we acknowledge neither needed the Doctor to haue produced so many testimonies I may well say of the Doctor as did
his minde at his death it had beene something but seeing he continued constant against the Popish doctrine it is a sure argument of his setled minde against that religion although he could not see all errours at the first Maruaile not then M. Doctor though by little and little he taught against your erroneous doctrines Augustine saith that nemo nisi imprudens quia mea errata reprehendo Lib. 1. Retract me audebit repreheÌ„dere No man that is wise wil find fault with me because I finde fault with my selfe Touching the alteration of the Communion booke we haue made no great alteration these fourtie yeares of it And yet knowe we M. Doctor that ceremonies and matters of indifferencie may be changed so oft as the Church shall see cause But say you who so doeth obserue daiely the order thereof is a cold Protestant or an Atheist for his labour This sauoureth of your accustomed railing and therefore deserueth no answere As for the communion in leauened or vnleauened bread heare your angelicall Doctor Thomas non est de necessitate Sacraments Tertia Pâ— 74. art 4. quod sit azimus vel fermentatus panis quia in vtroque confici potest conueniens autem est vt vnusquisque seruet ritum suae Ecclesia It is not of the necessitie of the Sacrament that it should be either vnleauened or leauened bread but it is conuenient that euery man obserue the rite of his church in the celebration of the Sacrament That some in stead of wine take in the communion nappie ale it may be true in Papists but I knowe no protesants that doe it and as for placing the Communion table and praying with a mans face either towards the south or north be matters of indifferencie Walfridus Strabo writeth of this point thus Vnusquisque suâ— sensu abundet Let euery man abound in his owne sense Yea he sheweth that the altars did not looke all one way but there followeth a great matter concerning reuerend Iewel who first gloried that Christs flocke was little but afterwards vaunted much that our doctrine must needes be true because it was spread so largely As though this reuerend man might not auouch Christs flocke to be sometimes little See Sâ—câ— in his 5. booke and sometimes to be large But if this be such inconstancy I pray you learne M. Doctor that your selues were woont to prooue you to be the Church because of vniuersalitie But nowe your Rhemists seeing Antichrists kingdome lessended will needs prooue your selues the Church vpon the 20. of the â—eueâ— because of the small number Thus is vnconstancie turned vpon your owne heades for indeed it seemeth that you care not what you write to discharge the Pope from beeing Antichrist The same Rhemists will one while haue the reuolt of which Paul speaketh 2. Thessal 2. chap. to be vnderstood from the Romane Empire immediately they say it is very like to be from the Romane Church O admirable constancie What should I examplifie your inconstancie howe Saints heare our praier one whiles they heare them this way another whiles that way These you may read in Bellarmine himselfe the constancie of worshipping of your Images is vncoÌ„stant as I can prooue vnto you Luther his change of opinions I haue answered before the old prouerb may heare fitly be vsed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 no one man seeth all things and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the second cogitations are best I will requite the Duke of Saxonie his speech with another it is reported saith Gryneus that he should say Although I am not ignorant that there haue both errours and abuses crept into the Church yet I will not imbrace that Gospel which Luther preacheth Thus the man as I thinke with whose saying you ende your chapter M. Doctor hath done you more harme then good The 18. reason False Prophets and teachers As the Prophets and Apostles and Christ himselfe foretolde that in the later daies there should come false Prophets so we find it by experience Now let vs see whether the notes of false Prophets agree to your selues or vnto vs. To prooue that they agree vnto vs you frame this reason They which come vnsent are false prophets But the Protestants come vnsent ergo The assumption is prooued because we haue neither ordinary or extraordinarie callings Extraordinarâ—e calling we haue none because we worke no miracles that we haue no ordinarie calling it is plaine I answer that Luther Zuinglius and some others were ordained Elders by your selues And therefore they were called ordinarily According to your calling if they were Elders they might preach true doctrine for I hope you ordained not them to preach false doctrine If they lost their ordination because they renounced poperie then haue you lost yours much more because you haue renounced Christs doctrine But I thinke you will not say that they lost their ordination because of your indelible character the Sacraments which imprint this cannot be repealed one of which you make Orders But I would not haue you to thinke that we esteeme so much of your calling as that we regard it beeing corrupt The wicked asked Christ for his authoritie Mat. 21. He that preacheth the Apostles doctrine hath authoritie enough the estate of this church beeing corrupted so that he cannot haue that calling which he would He that is sent to preach may not hold his tongue and tarrie till your Lord the Pope and his mitred fathers can inteÌ„d to consent But you require miracles I answer that Iohn Bapt. did no miracle Thom. 3. 3â— quaest art 2. resp ad 2. giueth this reason Si Iohannes signa fecisset homines ex aequâ— Iohanni Christo attendissent If Iohn had done any miracles men would haue equally attended to him and to Christ It is sufficient that our doctrine is confirmed by Christs miracles Further M. Doctor our preachers were called by the Christian Magistrates whose allowance they had which to be warrantable your selues cannot denie But why doe I followe this point any further Coster a papist confesseth that Quanquam plerique haereticorum Episcopi presbyteri doctores ex ordine munus officium docendi acceperunt nulli tamen facultas data est noua decreta fabricandi sed hoc tantùm candidè sincerè tradendi quod ei qui misit probatur Although many Bishops Elders and Doctors of haeretickes haue receiued orderly the dutie to teach yet to no man is power giuen to make newe opinions but sincerely to deliuer that which is approoued vnto him that sent him Wherefore you reiect our calling prooue that we coyned newe opinions Eusâ—b l. 6. 1â— cap. Origen taught before he was ordained Elder when the Church was sound Demetrius reprehended Alexander Bishop of Hierusalem and Theodistus of Caesarea for suffering him so to doe but they defend themselues and shewe that it may be done ad commodandum fratribus to profit the brethren If this might be done in Constituta Ecclesia in an
testifieth Arrias Montanus added to the 14. psalme whole sentences but this corruption was soone espied this was done to prooue the Hebrew text corrupt and to iustifie the latine translation approoued of Papists Who almost but bold Papists durst haue coyned scripture I thinke this is to proceede against conscience Latomus a Papist blasphemed out of a pulpit and was suddainly madde and died in despaire What should I speake of Franciscus Spira and others Hasinmullerus giueth many examples of papists who haue proceeded against their consciences The blessed deaths of Luther Zwinglius Oecolampadius Caluin Melancthon Bullinger Cranmer Ridely Bradford Philpot Iuell Pilkington Grindall Dearing and diuers other doe manifest that Protestants proceeded not against their knowledge To returne to Papists out of the forenamed author namely Hasinmullerus euery one may behold the strange endes of these men Stephanus Agricola beeing an Apostata drowned himselfe in the sea One Gaspare Franke confessed that he did and wrote many things against his conscience Turrian wished that he had neuer reade the Augustan confession c. Sadel his workes when I found these things to be true to vse your wordes I thought it better to adventure my selfe with Christians who haue quiet consciences then with desperate Papists who proceed against their consciences The 22. reason Vnreuerent dealing The Papists reuerence vnto God and Christ is such as was that of the Iewes who platted a crown of thornes and put it on Christs head to make him a king euen so the Papists make Christ a Sauiour but they giue not the whole worke of saluation vnto him which indeede is to dishonour Christ But forsooth they pretende to honour his Saints if they doe soe let them not make them Sauiours for this in trueth is to dishonour them The Saints honour consisteth not in false worshippe but in giuing all glorie to God That which Lactantius writeth of Angels is true of Saints Nullum sibi honorem tribui volunt quorum honor in Deo est They wil haue no honour giuen to them whose honour is in God We honour Saints by praising God for their vertues and by imitating them but we make not their merits the treasure of the Church neither doe we call vpon them As for reuerence vnto holy water pictures crosses images I say with Esay who required these things at your hands The Doctor in truth hauing nothing to say against vs raileth spitefully saying that we enter into Churches with no greater reuerence then men enter into Tauerns not contenting himselfe with this vnchristian lie he proceedeth auouching if any kneele it is but vpon thornes for full soone are they vp againe and then with their hats vpon their heads they either iangle or talke or walke as if they waited to see when the plaiers would come forth vpon a stage or else these good fellowes goe to the alehouse where now and then they finde their minister drinking his morning draught before he goe to his seruice to drinke a pot or two of nappie ale that thereby they may the better hold out seruice time Christian Reader to recite these reuiling speeches is to refute them and they which frequent the alehouse with vs are Papists and Atheists if any Protestants do so I wish them to amend whether they be ministers or laiemen Besides he hath many moe rayling words against the reuerend Bishops as that Barons and noble men disdaine their companie surely M. Doctor I blesse God that you haue no sound matter to obiect against the Protestants but such vanities as the world can controll Our Bishops and ministers are as highly esteemed with true Christians as Popish Prelates with their fauorites Vertue and learning maketh a man reuerend which in many Popish Bishopps to be wanting we see with our eies But let vs nowe see howe the Papists reuerence holy things speaking of such they vsually say the holy bread the holy Scriptures the holy Gospell and the holy Angels it is well that you doe not so alwaies why then doe you blame the Protestants who doe say the holy bible and vse this word holy whē it is to be applied vnto things that are so if they do not alwaies so you can not blame them more then your selues seeing this word is not alwaies added by you Marke your reasons M. Doctor and you shall finde them without this title holy The Prophesies of the old Testament Scriptures Fathers if this be such a hainous crime not alwaies to adde this word holy you are guiltie of it your selfe As for the French men I thinke they doe not well to call the Saints after this manner Mounsieor S. Peter Master Saint Peter or my Lord S. Peter for it is no tearme of ciuill or temporall authoritie but a religious and diuine honour in religion God is our onely Lord and Master and we will not giue saluation and redemption but onely vnto him The comparison which the Doctor maketh of a countriman calling her Maiesties Nobles Treasurer Keeper Admirall and so forth is not worth any answer wherefore I leaue it and say with Bernard Maria falso non eget honore honora vitae integritatem Marie needeth no false honour honour her entire life So say I honour the saints by imitating their vertues the honour that I desire to giue to saints is to followe their vertues The 23. reason Resembling in Doctrine and deedes olde Heretickes This Chapter is duely to be considered because we are said to differ little or nothing from olde Heretickes both in doctrine and deedes if you could prooue this then were the Protestants case very hard but it shall be God willing made euident that you resemble olde Heretickes and not Protestants The first heresie is that we hold with Simon Magus what monstrous impudencie is this M. Doctor to charge vs will Simō Magus his opinions he held that men were saued by his grace if they did acknowledge him the Sauiour of the world Doe we teach any such thing we ascribe saluation to no other but onely to Christ If you had that conscience which you pretend you would not thus abuse your selfe The second heresie is we are Nouatians because we renounce the Pope I might crie out vpon these lewd and lowd lies Nouatius as Philastrius writeth 34. chap. taught Non esse fideli post Baptismum locum aliquem paenitentiae After baptisme there was no place of repētance for the faithfull The third heresie is that we denie freewill with the Manichees but the Manichees taught that sinne came not from freewill but from a substance which doctrine we renounce and teach that we haue freewill to sinne Lib. 1. c. 6. But you deale with vs as the Pelagians dealt with the auntient Church For Faustus a Pelagian charged the Church with Manichisme because it taught the will of man to be made sound by meere grace and not of it selfe Thus would you charge vs with Manichisme as proud Pelagians The fourth heresie is that with Arrius
turpi voto muta decretum in malis promissis rescinde fidem in a filthie vow change thy purpose in wicked promises disanull thy faith So doth Aquinas teach in his 2. 2. 88. quest art 10. in these words Potest contigere It may happen that a vow be simply euill or vnprofitable or a hindrance of a greater good and then it may be changed But you like filthie heretikes hold that it is a greater euill to marrie after a vow then to commit fornication Bellar. lib. 2. de Mo. cap. 34. and your Rhemists hold that it is the worst fornication 1. Cor. 7. Turpis saith Hosuis Philippo videtur hac oratio pâ— 412. Catholicis autem honestissima these words vnto Philip Melancthon seeme shamefull but vnto the Catholikes they seeme most honest what words will some say namely these that it is better for vowed persons to commit fornication or to haue a concubine then to marrie For your credit sake hereafter M. Doctor neuer come in with your doctrine of vowes I hope men by considering it will abhorre Poperie But we are not yet come to an ende of this their doctrine The catholike Romane religion teacheth abstinence and fasting which mortifieth our bodies and enricheth our countrey so doe we and doe abstaine not onely from flesh but from fish when we fast and from wine with all other delicates and for the enriching of our countrey there are lawes made to prohibit the eating of flesh on certaine daies and at certaine times But we differ from the Papists in these points first they teach that religious fasting consisteth in choice of meates as abstinence from flesh cheese egges but we teach that it consisteth in abstinence from all kind of meats It is well knowne that Popish fasting is feasting and many had rather be fed with wine and spices and delicates then with flesh Secondly we teach that we must fast to humble our selues to tame the flesh and for other respects but they teach that they fast to merit and to deserue at Gods hands nowe Christian Reader iudge which side holdeth most truely and soundly concerning fasting Some Papists write that we must abstaine from flesh and eate fish because God cursed not the waters is not this to make flesh an vncleane thing and so by consequent they resemble the old heretickes which condeÌ„ned the creatures as vncleane The auntient Christians when they fasted had but one meale a day and that at night our Papists haue two a dinner and a supper Bell. de Iâ—iu but M. Doctor whether is this to fast or no to gorge your selues with eating fish and drinking wine in bowles Wine inflameth concupiscence as well as flesh The auntient Church did not restraine fasting to certaine meates as you may see in Tertullian his booke adversus Psychichos Take heed therefore least you take part with Montanus in restraining to certain meats times Spiridion did sell flesh in lent to be eateÌ„ â—â—cause to the cleane all things are cleane Out of this historie marke these things First that to fast is sine omni cibo permanere to be without all meate Secondly the guest did refuse flesh because he was a Christian Spiridion faith therfore he ought to eate What can be more direct against Popish fasting The Papists say men are no Christians if they eate flesh in lent Spiridion saith because they are Christians therefore they ought to eate flesh Alcibiades liuing sparingly was admonished by God that he should vse all creatures Euseb l. 5. c. 3. Possid in vita August cap. 22. Augustine had alwaies wine because euery creature is sanctified by the word and praier By the same reason flesh is sanctified as well as wine A Christian may say with Augustine Non ego immunditiam obsonij timeo sed immunditiam cupiditatis I feare not the impuritie of the creature but the impuritie of my appetite Take heede also least you take part with Eustathius in this point as you doe in marriage So lib. 2. cap. 31. For he did eschew the companie of a Priest that had a wife and taught that men must abstaine from meates I will not speake of your doctrine of meriting by fasting onely this I say that if Popish fasting be right fasting many can be content to enioy no other feasting To haue most daintie cates fish and wine pleaseth the mouthes of many men as well as flesh To leaue this and to come to other points The Catholik Romane religion Who raise rents in England like vnto Papists yea it may be prooued by examples that there be Româ—ne Chatholikes as hard dealers as any other saith the Doctour forbiddeth Landlords to raise their rents except vrgent occasion driue them so to doe And we teach that oppression is peccatum clamans non amans a crying and not a louing sinne and therefore it is false which you say that we teach the Landlord to doe what he list with his owne the landlord must doe as he would men should doe vnto him he must deale with his tennants as considering himselfe to be a tennant The same Catholike Romane religion teacheth marriage to be indissoluble so doe we excepting the case of adulterie and your doctrine causeth many to fall into that foule sinne for the offending person knowing that the innocent person may not marrie againe careth not to commit that sinne if libertie were graunted the occasion is taken away Secondly you make no difference betwixt the innocent person and the person offending is not this good diuinitie The Grecians also teach as we teach in this point so doth Erasmus and your owne men Caietane and Catherine Thus M. Doctor you care not to accuse your owne champions of prophane doctrine I passe by other testimonies because I will answer briefly libr. de Ma. c. 14. Bellarmine writeth thus Sola fornicatio directè oppenitur fidei coniugali sustantiae ipsius matrimonij Onely fornication is direâ—â—ly opposite to the marriage couenant and to the substance of matrimonie Great reason then is there surely that this sinne should dissolue marriage Doth not that dissolue a thing which ouerthroweth the substance of it And how they prouided for the innocent partie let his word iudge which punisheth the adulterer with death if the adulterer ought to be so punished there can be no question but marriage may be dissolued Hitherto the Doctor hath had but badde successe for his holy doctrine let vs see if his successe be better hereafter The Catholike Romane religion saith he teacheth that all laws of magistrates which be not expresly against the word of God doe binde the subiects in conscience the greater therefore is your sinne because you care not to murder Princes But what if the Pope giueth a dispensation then you may doe what you list O holy and heaueÌ„ly doctrine Our doctrine concerning magistrates lawes is this that the authoritie in generall is to be regarded for conscience because it is Gods ordinance But
euery lawe doeth not binde Conscience but those which are diuine beeing immutable And this doctrine is taught by your man Gerson as witnesseth Bellarmine There are no men that haue giuen greater obedience to magistrates then Protestāts as the world can testifie The Papists bring the Magistrates into contempt The Emperour must lead the Popes horse Coster glorieth that Pipin king of Fraunce 43. p. doing reuerence to the Pope did lead the Popes horse if Emperours must lead the Popes horse and kisse his toe who bring Magistrates to contempt the Pope or the protestants Henrie the fourth bare-footed fasting from morning to night waited for the Popes sentence three daies If this be not to contemne Magistrates I knowe not what is In the booke of ceremonies the Emperour is appointed wonderfull seruilitie but I leaue this contempt of Magistrates and come to veniall sinnes and concupiscence A man may wonder that we should be charged with vnholy doctrine because we teach euery sinne to deserue damnation The greater the sinne is the more men should abstaine from it therefore on the contrarie the lesser it is the lesse regard is had of it By our doctrine then mē regard sinne more then by the Papists doctrine because we teach no sinne to be small iudge therefore indifferent reader which is most holy doctrine Hierom saith Nescio an leue aliquod peccatum ad Co. I knowe not whether we may tearme any sinne small which is cōmitted against God or no. But the Papists care not to call sinnes veniall and small though committed against an infinite God To enlarge this doctrine a litle their owne men namely Gerson and the bishop of Rochester teach as we teach Bellarmine vseth strōg reasons against this wicked doctrine Bellar. l. 1. de amist gra c. 1. No punishment is so euill as any sinne can be Ergo no sinne is veniall A man must rather be annihilated then he must commit any sinne how then can sinne be veniall of it owne nature Thus your owne schoole resolueth against your doctrine The scripture is plaine Cursed is euery one that continueth not in all things that are written in the booke of the lawe to doe them 3. Gala. If man be accursed for euery sinne then euery sinne deserues death but man is accursed for euery sinne Ergo Augustine writeth excellent well of this point Leuia multa faciunt vnum graue Tract 1. in epist Ioh. multae guttae implent flumen multa grana faciunt massam Many small sinnes make one great and many drops make a flood many cornes make a heape Take head therefore M. Doctor of your small sinnes least admitting them you haue a masse of corruption Theodorus Abucara speaketh as plainely as any Protestant In lib. Pa. Peccati nullus expers est nisi Christus Dominus I am vero omne peccatum vel tantillum mortem infert No man excepting Christ our Lord is without sinne Nowe the least sinne deserueth death Touching concupiscence we teach with the Apostle that it is sinne and by this doctrine men must of necessitie be mooued to striue more against it then if it were no sinne Howe say you M. Doctor wil you not striue more against that thing which is sinne then against that which is no sinne if you will not the greater is your shame and your conscience is the more dissolute Concerning the reward of good and bad life in the world to come we teach it with you but yet we denie the merit of eternall life Opera sunt via regni non causa regnandi saith Bernard Good workes are the way to the kingdome of heauen de lib. arb they are not the cause of it Tota spes mea saith Augustine est in morte Domini mei mors eius meritum meum in anual 22. refugium meum My whole hope is onely in the death of my Lord his death is my merit and refuge And againe Meritum meum miseratio Domini My desert is the Lords mercie Besides these authorities M. Doctor if reasons will satisfie you why we denie merits take these Whosoeuer meriteth must perfectly fulfil the lawe but no mā in this life can perfectly fulfill the lawe ergo no man can merit Secondly where there is merit there is no mercie for gratia non est vllo modo gratia nisi sit omni modo gratuita Grace is not grace except it be euery way free but the reward is of mercie Ergo. Thirdly where there is merit there may be confidence in merits but no man must put his confidence but in God Ergo. To this syllogisme I will annexe Augustines speech Lib. de pec mo◠14 cap. Quisquis ergo ausus fuerit dicere iustifico te consequens est vt dicat etiam crede in me quod nemo sanctorum recte dicere potest Whosoeuer can say I iustifie thee may by consequent say beleeue in me which none of the Saints can rightly say If then we iustifie our selues we may beleeue in our selues which speech all Christians doe abhorre Fourthly where there is merit there the reward is due by iustice to the worke but by iustice it is not due saue onely in respect of Gods promise ergo If you will see the assumption prooued read Aquinas 1. 2. 114. quaest where he saith that Deus est debitor sibi non nobis God is debter to himselfe and not to vs. Read also Bernard de lib. arb and heare Augustine writing thus Debitor factus est he is made a debter by promising Now to produce your owne men as Scotus and diuers others I hold it needlesse yet let the Catechisme of Colon speake Quis tam stupidus est c. Who is so sottish as to thinke our good workes to be worthy of eternall life Thus merits are reiected by reason and by sundrie authorities therefore he slaundereth vs in saying that we giue the people occasion to be negligent in doing of good and little or nothing fearfull to euill Nowe we are come to auricular confession The Catholike Romane religion teacheth confession to a priest of all deadly sinnes which we can remember vnder paine of damnation which restraineth the people from sinne and causeth them particularly to be well instructed and counselled But the Protestant taking that away setteth open a dore to all wickednes and loosenes of life as also to ignorance To answer this latter speech first no man can be ignorant that shutteth not his eyes how we condemne loosenes of life and how we crie for knowledge We desire and beseech the people to read the bible we catechize and instruct them we examine them also before the communion doe we then open a dore to ignorance Some Papists haue said that ignorance is the mother of deuotion and I am sure that knowledge aboundeth now more then euer it did in Poperie As for auricular confession Iuel 27. ait we say it is neither commanded by Christ nor necessarie to saluation The Papists