Churches if it were not presently met with knowing also that it was a false reproach which they had put vpon the Ministers began to excuse them assuring the King and the Queene that the Ministers would alwaies be readie to conferre with the Doctors and to defend by the scripture the confession of their Churches in what place soeuer and before such persons as they would it should bee So that they were permitted to pray vnto God as they had required in the beginning of their conference and that they should there obserue the order and meanes which they had proposed or other better as they should thinke good to the end to auoyd all wranglings and the confusion of voyce and cries as is ordinarily seene in schooles and disputes of Sophisters and contentious persons My Lord of Neuers hauing vnderstood these words of my Lord the Admirall found them verie reasonable and perswaded as it is certaine first by the spirit of God and afterwards by a haughtinesse and generositie of heart which thrust him forward with a will to vnderstand the truth of each thing sollicited the King and Queene that by theyr commission and vnder their authoritie the said Conference might bee established And so wrought he that hee obtained of their Maiesties what hee demaunded By meanes whereof hauing aduertised my Lord the Admirall of theyr pleasures they consulted together of the order should bee held in the same conference And resolued in the end that my Lord De Neuers and my Lord the Duke of Buillon should bee the chiefe Iudges therein and that of the one side and the other should some Gentlemen be present to bee witnesses and beholders of whatsoeuer should bee done in the same And further that there should be two Notaries of both sides of the litle fort at Paris which should put in writing and signe whatsoeuer should be alleadged and proposed by the parties These conditions thus conceiued and agreed of among the said Lords were also accepted by the Doctors Vigor and De Sanctes of the one partie and by the Ministers De Spina Sureau of the other partie Who began to assemble themselues together on Tuesday the ninth of Iuly 1566. in the house of my said Lord of Neuers where in his presence and of other Lords which were with him after prayers made by the Ministers in the absence of the Doctors who because they would not be present had withdrawn themselues apart Doctor Vigor spake and began by protestation That the cause why hee and his companion were entred into Conference with the Ministers was not to be instructed in any point of Religion nor any way to withstand the Constitutions of the Councels and chiefly that of Trent by which they are forbidden to dispute with heretikes And that they for their part were wholly resolued to abide in the faith of the Romish Church but that at the request and pursuite of the Lord de Montpensier who for the reducing of his daughter Madame de Buillon had required the said Conference they were come thither to the end to satisfie him declare the holy zeale they haue to seeke and bring backe to the flocke those which are thence departed Wherevpon their speeches ended the Ministers speaking protested likewise that that which had led theÌ„ to conference with the Doctors was not because they doubted of any article conteined in their confession which they knew to bee drawne froÌ„ the pure word of God but that it was to maintaine the same against the Sophistries and cauillations of theÌ„ which would impugne it and to retaine Madame de Buillon in the good and holy institution which shee had receiued by the grace which God had giuen her Thus the protestations on both sides made the Ministers supposed that the Doctors theÌ„ following the intention of my Lord de Montpensier and the desire of Madame de Buillon should haue begunne the Conference by the Dispute of two points the Supper and the Masse But as they that will besiege and batter a Towne begin a farre off to make their Trenches and approaches to prepare themselues to the deciding and conference of the said two points they began to lay their foundation by the authoritie of the Church wherevpon they would establish the certaintie of the Articles of faith and generally of all the holy Scripture And therefore the demaunds and objections were proposed by the Doctors And the answeres giuen by the Ministers De Sainctes beginning and De Spina answering as followeth Actes of the Dispute and Conference holden at Paris Question WHerevpon doo you ground your Religion Answere Vpon the word of God Question What do you vnderstand by the word of God Answere The writings of the Prophets and Apostles Question Doo you receiue for their writings all the bookes of the Bible as well of the olde as the new Testament attributing vnto all one like authoritie Answere No but following antiquitie wee distinguish betweene the Canonicall bookes and the Apocripha calling those Canonicall vpon whose doctrine the faith and all Christian religion is builded And those Apocripha which haue not such authoritie that wee may build or establish vpon them any Article of faith but are proper to teach and well gouerne the estate of life and manners of Christians by reason of the goodly and notable sentences which are comprised in them Question By what meanes doo you know that the one is Canonicall the other Apocripha Answere By the spirit of God which is a spirit of discretion and enlightneth all those vnto whom it is communicated to make them capable to bee able to iudge and discerne things spirituall and to know and apprehend the truth when to them it is proposed by the witnesse and assurance which thereof it giueth them in their hearts And as wee discerne the light from darkenesse by the facultie of seeing which is in the eye euen so may wee easily seperate and acknowledge the truth from vntruth and from all things in generall which may be false absurd doubtfull or indifferent when as we are furnished with the spirit of God and guided by the light which it lightneth in our hearts Question Yea but some man may boast to haue the spirit of God which hath it not And we see by Histories that all heretikes haue euer thought to haue the truth on their side and endeuoured to authorise their doctrine by inward â—euelations which they feigne to haue receiued of Gods spirit Whereby it may appeare what daunger there should bee to referre the censure of a booke or doctrine to the witnesse of the spirit of God which one particular man shal imagine or feigne to haue receiued in his heart Answere Very easie it is to auoyd such daunger in following the counsell which Saint Iohn doth giue vs in his first Catholike Epistle not to beleeue indifferently all spirits but to proue and diligently to examine them before wee receiue or approue what they propose And the triall to be made in
seeing the Supper was to be handled against theÌ„ in the chamber of the Prior of Poissy in the preâ—â—ce of the Queen of the Prinoes of bloud of the Lords of the Councell they often requested to leaue that point vndecided hand to enter into some other which should be more euident against the Catholikes as of Images and other things And contrariwise the Ministers to auoyd now the great 〈◊〉 which be in their interpretation of the Creed would set forth the point of the Supper The Doctors beseech as they haue 〈◊〉 that there be no confusion in their doing and 〈◊〉 their religioâ—e examined by order and that it be noâ— thought that the Doctors doo refuse â—o enter into the Conference of the Masse and the Supper as they haue alwaies determined and neuer said vnder correction of all persons that they would not conferre theerof for my Ladies briefe instruction they are readie to dispute thereof by word of mouth and plainly to shewe by the expresse word of God that Iesus Christ instituted and said Masse and his Apostles also They do also offer that whatsoeuer shall be said by word of mouth vpon this matter be put in writing the next day after to be placed in it order as the instruction of my Lady doth require And do referre them for the day to the said Ladies opportunitie The Ministers do answere that all these answeres are superfluous and vnprofitable for as much as all such Conferences are nothing but debates and alâ—rications which doâ— offend and scandalize more then they edifie The Resolution of the Doctors THe Doctors ensuing the order alreadie begun and their charge which is to conferre with the Ministers and afterwards to giue a resolution for the instruction of my Lady of Buillon vpon the two points proposed yesterday to wit whether the Apostles were authors of the Creed And why we ought to beleeue it They say that to know whether the Apostles did make and erect the Creed ought no more to be esteemed a thing indifferent then to know whether the Apostles be authors of their owne writings For much more is the authoritie of them when a man is assured that they are certainly proceeded from the Apostles And contrariwise it should be far lesse if men did doubt therof or esteem it a thing indifferent Moreouer they say that it is no sufficient reason to call this Creed Apostolike and to intitle it the Creed of the Apostles in regard of the conformitie it hath with their writings For by this reason the other Creeds as that of Nice of Athâ—nâ—sius and all other the like writings may as well be named the Creed of the Apostles because they containe a doctrine agreeable to the Apostles writings Therefore say the Doctors it must be beleeued that the Apostles did make it and gaue the same Creed vnto Christians and that it must be beleeued as being a writing composed by the Apostles And their proofe thereof is that they alwayes finde since the Apostles time vntil now that this Creed hath bene proposed in Baptisme and Catechisme as it appeareth by the authors which haue beene from the Apostles vnto vs. And also that no man can name or note any Author or Councell but euen before that Author or Councell immediately to the Apostles time that Creed hath beene proposed in Baptisme and Cat chisme and called among Christians the rule of faith And the like argument S. Augustine in many places against the Donatists doth esteeme to be firme and inâ—incible to proue and shew that something is from the Apostles They willingly omit to auoyd â—ediousnesse the auncient writers as S. Ambrose S. Ierome others who acknowledge this Creed to haue bene made and receiued namely of the Apostles For the second point the Doctors do affirme that the bond and necessitie to beleeue this Creed doth not depend oâ— the knowledge of the Apostolike or Propheticaâ—â— scriptures nor on the knowledge of the conformitie with them For it was made and coâ—â—ained among the Christians in Baptisme before there was any Apostolike writing And in Baptisme they proposed the said Creed to be beleeued before they entâ—ed into the scripture or to speake thereof And in the Primatiue Church they examined the scriptures whether they were to be receiued or nor and the vndeâ—standing of them and whether a doctrine were true or false by this Creed and rule of faith and by it likenesse or conformitie with the same Ireneus Tertullian and others do teach it And although it should so happen that a man had neuer heard but the Creed without knowing whether there be holy scriptures or not hee might beleeue the said Creed and be a true Christian so that hee were voyd of other particular false opinion And contrariwise if the beliefe of the Creed did depend vpon the knowledge of the Propheticall oâ— Apostolike scriptures to vnderstand and to be assured of the conformitie that is therein as 〈◊〉 as to beleeue it 〈◊〉 none but the learned and well exercised in the scriptures who should bee assured of the said conformitie should be bound to beleeue the Creed or should at least be assured of the truth thereof And so should there he very fewe Christians Therfore the belleâ—ing of the Creed doth not depend vpon the knowledge of the scriptures By meanes whereof the Doctors do hold by tradition of the Church 〈◊〉 by the holy Ghost that the Creed is the Apostle and that none ought to doubt therof And by the same tradition it must be beleeued as 〈…〉 of the Apostles of like authoritie with that in their writings although they had no knowledge of the other scriptures And the Doctors are sory that they haue so much declined from answering pertinently and absolutely to these two points which they haue onely proposed to shew what faith and authoritie men ought to giue to this Creed and to all other doctrine receiued by tradition of the Apostles without Canonicall scripture which they will proue to haue bene left by them by the same meane and reason by which is shewed the Creed to haue bin deliuered to the Christians by the Apostles without that they put the same in writing Finally the Doctors do admonish such as read this Conference not to be astonished nor maâ—uell at so many perplexed declinings from the true end of the said points proposed And do pray them to remember the conferences made by S. Augustine with the Donatists and Pellagians wherin they shall finde like maner of dealing as that of the Ministers with whom they do conferre And for the present Conference referre themselues to the readers iudgement The Resolution of the Ministers THe Ministers following that which before hath bene proposed and alwaies by them maintained and for the confirmation also of the faith of the Lady of Buillon say that it is vncertaine as S. Ciprien hath written whether the Creed called the Apostles was made composed by them or else drawne or gathered out of their
Epistle of S. Iohn and others But in time the Church guided by the holy Ghost with common consent receiued indifferently for Canonicall all the bookes that bee in the Bible which consent continued by so many hundred yeares hath more authoritie then the sayings of one or two the which neuerthelesse spake not but of their owne time And further there is no comparison betweene the sayings of one or two particular men the determinations of Councels and consent of the Church as hath already beene sayd And it will be found that S. Ierom hath approoued these bookes as Canonicall And for the same will referre themselues to the Prologue which hee made vpon the bookes of the Macabees where he saith Touching the Hebrewes they are not Canonicall histories of the Church or other wordes to the like effect For the Councell of Laodicia they referre them to that which is contained therein It may bee they are deceiued in cyting one Councell for another For the Article beginning Touching the experience c. Although it be a question of fact yet it ceaseth not to be much auailable And if it be found as the Doctors haue proposed of which they doubt nothing the foundation of their particular reuelation is ouerthrowne Touching the Ministers conclusion the Doctors doo shew that they haue oft times complained they fell into by-matters They referre themselues to the iudgement of all men that their last resolution was deducted all of one thread continuing without straying in the same matter In which albeit they had found something wherein difficultie had beene had the Ministers so much desired to proceed to the conference of the chiefe pointes they might briefely haue admonished them of the said difficultie The Doctors vpon these articles had verily said something but to hasten the busines for the which they bee called they do forbeare to multiply words Where the Ministers shew that they receiue the 24. bookes of the old Testament with all the bookes of the Newe The Doctors say that that is not the point For all the conference they haue made hitherto that is to say by what rules men might discerne some bookes from other some and iudge whether they were of the Scripture or not was to raunge them in this point that they receiued them by the tradition of the Church which is iudge of the number of the bookes and by the same meanes when the question should bee of the vnderstanding of the word of God euen in the conference of the places of the same Scripture the Ministers and Doctors should haue such reuerence to the Catholique Church that she should be of both parts accepted for iudge of the vnderstanding of the Scripture which they acknowledg to haue receiued of the same wherof she is an infallible iudge and more certaine then the one or the other And notwithstanding the Doctors doo make offer to the Ministers that they will not vse at this time against them but those bookes onely which they receiue for Canonicall But when they shall fall into difficultie of the interpretation of some text or of the conference of many the Doctors esteeme it more reasonable to haue recourse to the Catholique Church and to the auncient Fathers then to their proper sence or that of the Ministers Answere For conclusion the Ministers do accept of the offer made them by the Doctors to decyde the pointes and articles of their Confession by the bookes Canonicall whereof they are agreed that is to say the 24. bookes of the Hebrewes and all the bookes of the new Testament protesting neuerthelesse that in the last writtings proposed by the Doctors there bee many things which they no wayes approoue and doo hope to confute as occasions shall bee offered and would presently haue done it had it not beene that they will shew against that imputed to them by the Doctors that they will not stray nor any way retyre from the conference of the points of their Confession Reply The Doctors reciprocally do agree to the Ministers in the said offer with this moderation to ad the authoritie of the vniuersall Church and the auncient Doctors for the interpretation and vnderstanding of the holy Scripture when they cannot agree The third dayes Dispute on Thursday the eleuenth of Iuly THE Ministers haue shewed what are the protestations which the Doctors haue made not for other ende to appeare in this Conference but to satisfie Madam de Buillon and not to bee instructed and otherwise informed of the pointes of Religion then they be And those which the Ministers haue on their part made also not to conferre with them for any doubt they haue of the pointes of their Confession whereof they bee wholely resolued By reason of which protestations they haue required that the first point whereof they shall conferre may bee that which Madam de Buillon hath publiquely required to bee decyded that is of the Supper and of the Masse that they may bee discharged of that also which hath beene imputed vnto them by the Doctors that they wandered and would not come to the principall point which is that aforesaid of the Masse but cōtrariwise that they fled away drew backe from the conference Finally that it may bee knowne who doo flye the decyding thereof They offer after they haue cleared that point to conferre with them if they please of all the other points which be in controuersie as leisure and time shall therfore be granted And doo also require to avoyd all confusion and such as happened in the Conference the day before that the Doctors may propose their arguments particularly each one apart and that the answers also may bee made vnto them particularly by the Ministers Ir els if they will propose all their arguments and reasons together that one whole day may bee graunted vnto them wherein they may doo that without any interruption conditionally that the Ministers may haue the day following to answere by order to all their arguments The Doctors say by that which is aboue written in the behalfe of the Ministers That it is easie to know they haue alwayes recoyled and yet do recoyle from conference of the things which they haue put in controuersie and they are maruellously abashed that they will not now permit the articles of their confession to be examined by order as the day of the first Conference they had required my Lord of Neuers my Lord and Lady of Buillion and other Lords and Gentlemen being present in presenting their said confessions contained in a little guilded booke making offer to the Doctors to examine them in order if they pleased which they found very reasonable And indeed the Ministers themselues hauing demanded of the Doctors whereof they would intreate departed yesterday contented to begin this day to examine the Articles of the Creed And as touching their speeche of the protestation that the assembly was made for the instruction of my Lady who desireth as they say in her absence to bee
shuld make a long and vnprofitable aboad at Paris not hauing wherewithall to imploy theyr time Considering they were not there but by accident to wit that de Spina was come thither to passe further and make a voyage into Aniou and the other who was Minister of the Church of Orleance was lately come forth of prison where he had beene brought in the Moneth of Iune next precedent vpon a false accusation suborned against him by the enemies of Gods Church which charged him to be author of a pernicious and wicked booke written against the obedience due to Kings and Princes Therefore was it very hurtfull for him to soâ—ournâ— so long a time in a Citie whither hee came against his lyking For these causes they purposed to returne towards my Lord of Neuers to shew vnto him the things aforesaid and tell him that De Sainctes who might haue stayed and ioyned some other with him in the stead of Vigor was departed thence without making it knowne when his returne would be that it was not reason they should stay there being incertaine of that which they had to doo and considering that their Churches had need of them to execute therin their charges and that they desired the same Notwithstanding in the end they found it better to suffer an inconuenience and to abide there vntill my Lord of Neuers departed from Paris as in the end of the Moneth of August he should goe to his owne land called Coâ—lomiers For seeing the Doctors were then absent the Lord of Neuers being departed the Ministers could doo nothing not hauing whom to write vnto nor with whom to conferre These remonstances being liked by the said Lord hee gaue them leaue to depart by writing signed Lodouico de Gonzague and below Varin Secretarie Dated 26. of August wherein were declared the occasions here before touched and remoÌ„strance of the Ministers with promise made by the said Lord to cause the answeres which the Doctors would make to be brought vnto them And that by the meane of Monsieur de Buci S. George who was charged with this businesse Also the Ministers promised to be readie were it to returne to Paris or else to answere from the place where they should be as often as the Doctors should write These things thus done and passed the Ministers returned presently after supposing to haue some speedie newes from the Doctors But they haue attended and yet do attend without that there hath bene any appearance thereof And they vnderstood nothing of that matter sauing that many seuerall writings were afterwardes cryed and solde through the Citie of Paris In the tytles whereof some found meane to enterlace the word Conference to make shewe vnto the world that it was something touching the former disputations And such a subtiltie indeed was not without great profit to the Printers So great desire had men to know the truth of the thing For contentation of whom we haue thought meet to bring to light what was done concerning the same reseruing to another time to publish what the Doctors when they shall do it shall write against it and what the Ministers also will there vnto answere if they can recouer the same In the meane time shall each one be admonished to make profit of that which is here contained And to pray the Father of lights to shead more more the brightnesse of his spirit vpon his Church to the true vnderstanding of his holy word for the restauration and aduancement of the spirituall kingdome of Iesus Christ his sonne our Lord. So be it the 8. of Nouember 1566. FINIS A briefe Table of the titles of the Acts of the Disputation THe Preface containing the occasions of the Dispute following The first day of the Disputation which was Tuesday the 9. of Iuly 1566. touching the assurance one ought to haue of the word of God and of the meane to knowe what is the word of God and to discerne betweene the bookes of the Bible to call the one Canonicall and the other Apocripha The second day being Wednesday the 10. of Iuly touching the same matter with the resolution of the Doctors concluding that it is by the authoritie of the Church that the holy scripture is knowne to be the word of God And the resolution of the Ministers to the contrary That it is the spirite of God which sealeth and imprinteth the assurance thereof in the harts of the elect The third day being Thursday the 11. of Iuly containing the demaunds and answeres vpon the Creede of the Apostles and why it is so called The fourth day being Friday the 12. of Iuly comprehending the resolution of the Doctors concluding that it is by the tradition of the Church that one is assured of the Creed of the Apostles And that of the Ministers tending to this that it is knowne by the conformitie which it hath with the holy scriptures The fift day being Mâ—nday the 15. of Iuly where is the beginning of the disputation of Gods Omnipotencie vnder the couert whereof the Doctors do ground foure points contained in the 63. Page On this Omnipotencie and the points aboue said the disputes following as well by word as by writing were continued The sixt day of the Dispute Tuesday the 16. of Iuly The Ministers answere to the obiections of the Doctors 〈◊〉 Tuesday the 16. of Iuly The reply or obiection of the Doctors against the answere of the Ministers touching the article of Gods omnipotencie on Satterday the 20. of Iuly The answere of the Ministers to the writing of the Doctors sent to them by my Lord the Duke of Neuers the 22. of Iuly about fiue of the clocke in the euening the yeare 1566. The reply of the Doctors to the writing of the Ministers sent to them by my Lord the Duke of Neuers the 25. day of Iuly about 8 of the clocke in the euening the yeare 1566. The Resolution of the Doctors touching the article of the Almightinesse of God in respect of the foure questions proposed by them to the Ministers Which serue to the vnderstanding of the reall presence of the body and bloud of Iesus Christ in the holy Sacrament The articles proposed by the Doctors for the next and other conferences following according to the order of the said articles The answere of the Ministers to the writing of the Doctors sent to them by my Lord the Duke of Neuers the 28. of Iuly about seuen of the clocke in the euening the yeare 1566. A briefe resolution of all the answeres and discourses which the Ministers haue made vpon the matter of Gods omnipotencie in the conference which they haue had with the Doctors The answeres to the preface of the Doctors questions The answeres to the questions proposed by the Doctors touching the Supper A briefe reply of the Doctors against the last answere of the Ministers sent to them by my Lord the Duke of Niuernois the first of August at 7. of the clocke in the euening Anno.
may brag and vsurpe to haue this spirit particularly promised vnto him And as touching the particular inspiration of Esay it was not founded on his onely fancie and presumption but on the assurance that God gaue him by a worke supernaturall as is said in the 6. Chapter And further it was not yet sufficiently founded to bee beleeued as hauing inspiration had he not shewed the same by other effects and by other Prophesies already come to passe As it behooueth euery Prophet should doo before he were beleeued But leauing all those things as farre fetched and from the first proposition I referre the iudgement as before Answere There is not one of the Church if he be a ture member therof vnto whom the spirit of God is not communicated As S. Paul and S. Iohn in his first Catholique Epistle teacheth And as touching the pretended presumption there is great difference betweene the presumption and imaginations of the spirit of man which is but darkenesse and of it selfe knoweth nothing of the thing of God and the reuelations of the holy Ghost which are certaine and assured And where it is said that the answeres are farre off from the first proposition if it be so the demaâ—nds are so also Obiection The conclusion is if each one ought to be beleeued in saying hee hath a particular reuelation of the holy Ghost without otherwise shewing that they are holy Scriptures and that there is difference amongst them let euery one iudge if the demands and answeres be pertinent to this difficultie or no. And forasmuch as some of the newe doctrine doo shew no proofe more then others of their particular inspirations whether the one ought to be more beleeued then the other concerning the same Answere By the former answeres it hath beene declared how the reuelations pretended by particular persons ought to be examined by the meanes by which men may iudge whether they be of the spirit of God or no. Then spake Doctor Vigor saying that in the discourse aforesaid he had vnderstood many sayings contained in the answers of the Minister which were against the word of God as when he said that it behooueth first to honour the Sonne before the father Which the said Vigor reproouing the said Spyna maintained that thing to bee true affirming such proposition to be grounded and contained in the holy Scripture as in the Gospel and first Catholique Epistle of S. Iohn Vnto which Vigor replyed that in the said places the word First is not found Neuertheles least he fall on that which hath beene put forth and proposed in the beginning of the conference he wil not now enter into the confutation of that saying reseruing it to the end of all the conferences Answere The said Spyna required that Vigor should quote the places of the Scripture which hee pretended to bee contrarie to that was contained in his answere And where it is said that it first behoueth to glorifie the Sonne before the Father according as it is written in the places aboue noted for confirmation of his saying hee proposeth this reason founded on the Scripture We cannot know the Father if we haue not knowne the Sonne Wee cannot glorifie the Father if we haue not knowne him Therefore it followeth that the knowledge and glory of the Sonne is a degree to come to the knowledge and glory of the father which being referred by the said Vigor to be more amply handled in the end and conclusion of all the conference the said Spyna is so contented Obiection The sayd Vigor without wading further in this dispute obiecteth that by the same reason alledged by the said De Spyna It followeth that it first behooueth to honour the Father before the Sonne for by the Father wee come to the knowledge of the Sonne as it appeareth by that which our Lord sayd to Saint Peter Caro sanguis non reuelauit tibi sed pater meus qui in Coelis est Flesh and blood hath not reuealed this vnto thee but my Father which is in the heauens Where it is manifest that the heanenly Father did reueale to Saint Peter that our Lord was the Sonne of the liuing God Whereupon the sayd Vigor doeth thus argue If the reason of the sayd De Spyna bee good by the Father wee know the Sonne it behooueth then to honour the Father before the Sonne Answere To follow the order of the knowledge we may haue of Iesus Christ and of his Father proposed vnto vs in S. Iohn It behooueth to beginne by the Sonne and from the Sonne to come to the Father For Saint Phillip hauing once required that hee would shew vnto him and his other companions his Father hee said vnto him Phillip hee that hath seene me he hath seene my Father To teach them that the meane to come to the knowledge of the Father is the precedent knowledge of the Sonne which may bee also confirmed by that which is else where written where Iesus Christ saieth That no man knoweth the Father but the Sonne onely and hee to whom the Sonne will reueale him And to answere the authoritie of Saint Matthew alledged by the sayd Vigor the sayd De Spyna sayeth that in the text by him produced there is no mention made of the knowledge of the Father nor of the meane to come vnto it But onely of the reuelation made by the grace of GOD and his holy Spirite vnto Saint Peter and his other fellowes to know IESVS CHRIST and the Father in him Whereupon Vigor sayde hee referred himselfe to the hearer and reader that his obiection is not answere dreseruing for another Conference to treat more amply of that point if hee will maintaine it least hee should fall vpon that which hath beene formerly proposed whereunto the sayd De Spyna answered that hee so agreed The sayde Vigor vpon an answere made by the sayde De Spina where hee putteth difference betweene the certaine reuelation made by the Lord to a particular person and the holy Scripture addeth that hee is abashed of the same answere considering that men beleeue not the holy Scripture But in that they are acertained that the Lord is authour thereof who cannot lye Then likewise that if a particular man haue assurance that the reuelation is made vnto him by the Lorde or else that one is assured of the reuelation made to another as much is hee bound to giue faith to the reuelation as to the Scripture The which saying also hee will not as hee may handle and declare at large but come presently to the first question which is not yet resolued And prayeth the sayd De Spina to set forward the same Answere Where the sayde Vigor is abashed that the sayde De Spina should say in one of his answeres That the reuelation of the Lord and the word were things different the same is befalne him for not well conceiuing the sence of the saying For De Spina will not put difference touching the certainty
first instructed concerning the Masse The Doctors say that the Ministers by word of mouth haue instructed the said Lady not onely in the error which concerneth their Supper but also in many others as they will make it appeare when they shall handle the articles of the Confession by them exhibited Then willing to instruct the Lady by order in the Catholique Religion they purpose to follow the order held by the Fathers of the Church that is to say to shew vnto her how many errors against the Articles of the faith are contained in the Catechisme of their Ghurch although they shew to them of their religion that they differ in these articles nothing from the Catholiques And because to catechise and instruct one it behooueth to beginne at the foundation and that of certaine articles of the Creed in which the Ministers their like do erre dependeth the beginning of the proofe of the reall presence of the body of Iesus Christ in the Sacrament of the Aultar they will holde the order which all good teachers or instructors doo keepe in all discipline and the Ministers themselues do obserue following in their Catechisme this method And rightly were the Doctors to bee mocked whom men doo take for instructors if they should beginne for the Ministers pleasure to instruct one in that point wherein they ought to ende as endeth the same Catechisme of the Ministers vpon the matter of the Supper Moreouer seeing the Ministers are content as they say that all the articles of their confession bee examined no priuiledge haue they but that one begin at the first for as much as all order so requireth and it is alwayes at the choice of the Apponent to propound in such order as seemeth best to him the questions for the Dispute were there any And for as much as they are bound to giue a reason of their faith as often as they be therof required expedient it were for the good of the Lady for the instruction of those that shall read the Conference to follow this method And if they refuse what the Doctors doo offer they cannot auoyd it but all the world will iudge by the eye that distrusting their owne doctrine which they dare not vphold they confound the Conference Whereas they require that the Doctors in the Conference put foorth but one reason at once wherevnto they may answere without confusion or else that in one day the Doctors put forth all their reasons and on an other day the Ministers may come to answere The Doctors do say that the first offer is reasonable and to auoyd length of speech they accept it but they neuer heard say that the second maner hath bene practised and no need it were to assemble together in one place for that purpose but to send their writings the one to the other Answere Touching the exhibiting of the confession and the offers which the Doctors pretend to haue beene made by the Ministers the Ministers do report themselues to the Registers And do adde moreouer that it appeareth by the Doctors last proposition that it is not vpon the confession which the Doctors say was exhibited vnto them but vpon the Catechisme that they will ground their Dispute For conclusion the Miuisters do eftsoones protest as abouesaid that men may know who they be that doo flye the Lists and require that henceforth the order of arguing and answering may be by course betweene them and the Doctors For as much as it behoueth that things be equall and that it is reasonable that the Doctors as well do render a reason of their faith as the Ministers Reply The Doctors do referre them to what hath bene put in writing in the two first Conferences where speech was alwaies of examining the articles of their confession without making any mention of the Masse And where they say that it seemeth the Doctors would examine the Catechisme and not the articles of the confession the Doctors are content to examine the said articles by conferring them with the Catechisme This considered that these two ought to agree together they make all men iudges that shal read these writings in whom is the let that they begin not the Conference And for the order which the Ministers will now change a new fashion it is and also a new trouble cōsidering that hitherto they haue holden the place of respondent and haue presented to be examined the articles of their confession As for the Doctors they haue bene alwaies arguers and haue not for their part proposed ought to be examined Neuerthelesse they are contented after examination of the said confession that the Ministers doo propound the difficulties they shall haue against the Catholike doctrine wherevnto by the grace of God the Doctors will answere Demaund Whether the Ministers do beleeue the Creed called the Apostles to haue bene made by the Apostles and whether they do beleeue all that is contained therein Answere It is a thing in difference whether the Apostles being together themselues did write it each one of them bringing his sentence as some do hold or whether it hath bene gathered out of diuers places of their writings But so it is that in the reformed Church men beleeue euery point to bee drawne from the pure Propheticall and Apostolike doctrine contained in their writings as if one should say that it is a Summarie of the doctrine which the Apostles haue preached because it beareth and containeth the same Question Leauing to auoyd tediousnesse whether it bee a thing indifferent for a Christian to beleeue that a doctrine hath bene written by the Apostles or no if it be conformable to that which shal be found in holy writ they demaund whether all doctrine conformable to the said Letters may take indifferently the title of the Apostles or other authors of the scripture Answere No man can faile to call it Apostolike doctrine but in naming it Apostolike writing one might giue to vnderstand that it was written by their owne hands or spoken by them But howsoeuer it be where we shall acknowledge any doctrine to sauour of the spirit wherwith the holy men of God haue bin moued that call we Propheticall and Apostolike doctrine Obiection The demaund was not whether the doctrine be Apostolike for any such conformitie but whether for this reason it may be attributed to the Apostles and of like authoritie as the Scriptures vnto which it is conformable forasmuch as it proceedeth from one selfe same spirit as is sayd in the answere Answere The Answere thereto is made to wit that such a writing doth containe Apostolique doctrine and in some sence it may be said to be the Apostles Obiection The Answere vnder correction nought pertaineth to the question For it is not demaunded whether men may esteeme it Apostolique in respect of the conformitie but whether for this conformitie men may attribute it to the Apostles and giue vnto it the tytle and name of the Apostles and whether for the said conformitie
it was impossible to God to make one bodie to be in two places Concerning this Article which beginneth Touching that which they say that the authorities c. The Doctors obiect that the auncient Fathers neuer thought to make exception of any thing which is not subiect to the power of God For as it is manifest hee that saith all excepteth nothing Therefore when the Scripture saith that God is almightie it giueth sufficiently to vnderstand that there is no exception And to giue exception therein should be to contradict to many places of the word of God and to blaspheme against his power But well say the Doctors that the Fathers haue interpreted the Omnipoteucie of God not to comprehend that which toucheth the perfection of his nature but that only which concerneth the Creatures So that there were not on their part too apparant contradiction and repugnancie Now the present question importeth not that there is contradiction for a bodie to be a bodie and in diuers places at one selfe-same instant For concerning the essence of bodies in speaking of a bodie hauing it dimensions as speake the Philosophers De praedicamento quantitatis Certaine it is that the dimensions are of the essence of a bodie but to be circumscript and inclosed in a place that is an accident Which thing is shewed by Philosophie it selfe For the most high heauen according to all is a bodie and neuerthelesse is it not in place according to it all Therefore is it not an essentiall thing for a bodie to be enclosed in one place And to speake of the present matter the Ministers should be very much troubled to prooue that the bodie of Iesus Christ is in one place in heauen seeing it is written in the 4. Chapter to the Ephesians he is mounted aboue all the heauens out of which there is no place as they speak of places in regard of bodies according to nature And were it so that it should be essential to a body to be in one place according to the rule which the Ministers deliuer an other blasphemy would follow against the Omniporencie of God that God could not make a body and place the same aboue all heauens And to speake more vniuersally that God could not make a bodie without place and roomth equall to it greatnes Touching the Allegations proposed by the Ministers of certaine auncient Authors The Doctors do obiect that the said Allegations are against themselues For as much as to be inclosed in a place doth not depend of the essence of a bodie nor of it measures as appeareth by the authorities produced wherein there is mentiō made of Angels which haue not bodies It is not therefore an essentiall reason for the demensions of a body to be contained in a place And all this furniture of authorities maketh nothing to the purpose For they tend but to shewe that the naturall proprietie of creatures is different from the diuine nature as S. Basil saith expresly in the place by the Ministers alledged And S. Ambrose in his first booke of the holy Ghost Cap. 7. where the same Authors doo declare that God by his nature may be euery where and the creatures by their natures not so But the said Authors pretend not that God by his Omnipotencie cannot make one body to be in diuers places For the same Authors or their like when they come to speak of the power of God in the holy Sacrament they affirme that the bodie of Iesus Christ is in heauen and in the holy Sacrament And affirme that the Angels and spirits of the blessed may by the same power be in many places As the Doctors will shew in their resolution Where the Ministers say that a body must be circumscript without place according to the essentiall proprietie that hath bene formerly shewed to be false And the Ministers do confound the name of body which sometimes doth signifie substance sometimes quantitie hauing it dimensions breadth length and deepnesse which dimensions be essentiall in a body taking the body for a kinde of quantitie and not in a substantiall body for it is an accident Now certaine it is that God can seperate the accidents from a body and make a substance without accidents otherwise there would follow an other blasphemie that God could not seperate the accident from a subiect and substance And where the Ministers say that a stone by a violent mouing may bee cast on high that is no answere to the question For the Doctors doo demaund for as much as it is essentiall and naturall to a massy and terrestriall body in regard of the massinesse and waight thereof tending downeward whether God by his onely power contrary to the naturall proprietie of a massy and waightie body cannot hold and hang it vp on high And as touching the euasion which the Ministers make from a very strong and mightie argument against their doctrine that two bodies may be in one place by the proofe that is made taken from the scripture not onely to proue that God can cause two bodies to be in one place but euen that he hath done it serueth nothing to couer their error in saying that it is not said in S. Iohn that our Lord did enter by the shut doores but that he was found standing in the midst of them where the said Ministers haue concealed and omitted this verbe venit and do stay onely vpon the verbe stetit For the expresse text in S. Iohn cap. 21. 19. saieth That the doores being shut Iesus came into the place where the Disciples were assembled and was there in the middest of them They demaund of them for as much as the scripture saith that he came thither the doores beeing shut and that hee was found in the middest of them whether hee were found in the middest of them and in the said place without entring thereinto or whether hee there entered for as much as the text saith that the doores were shut when he came How they will proue by the scripture that he entred if not by the shut doores For a much greater myracle should it be to be found in the middest of his Disciples without being entred into the place where they were Too light is that shift to say it is not written that he entred For S. Augustine in his booke De agone Christiano cap. 24. saieth thus Nec nos moueat quod clausis hostijs subitò eum apparuisse Dicipulis scriptum est vt propterea negemus illud fuisse corpus humanum quia contra naturam huius corporis videmus illudper clausa hostia intrare Omnia enim possibilia sunt Deo Nam ambulare super aquas contra naturam huius corporis esse manifestum est tamen non solum ipse Dominus ante passionem ambulauit sed etiam Petrum ambulare fecit Let it not moue vs because it is written that the doores being shut he suddenly appeared to his Disciples that we therefore denie that body to
his body to be locally in heauen and Sacramentally really neuerthelesse and substantially in the Sacrament of the Aultar Thus would the Doctors desire to heare the Ministers vpon this point and then afterwards to put their answere in writing And the Ministers shall neuer be able to shewe by the word of God that their faith can make at one instant and one selfe-same place a thing to be present and not present And one thing present and not present by faith is as much to say as that the body of Iesus Christ is in and not in a faithfull person And no Coduit pipe of the power of the holy Ghost should there also be needfull to conuey the flesh of Iesus Christ hither vnto vs from heauen were not the said flesh but in heauen and notwithstanding came vnto vs. And as touching the points obiected by the Doctors that Peter Martyr and Theodoret Beza were the first which said that God could not make one body to bee in two places and the Ministers haue willed to confirme by antiquitie this new doctrine which they cannot name otherwise then blasphemie The Doctors say they haue often prayed the Ministers that time might be spared things better cleared to speake nothing from the purpose Notwithstanding they bring forthwith the testimonies of Fathers to shewe that a body by nature is circumscript and cannot be naturally in many places but those Authors say not that God cannot do it But S. Augustine and others in the places cyted by the Doctors touching the article of the closed doores do rather witnesse that two bodies by the power of God may occupie one selfe-same place which is of like difficultie And when they shall come to the proofe of the reall presence of the body and bloud of Iesus Christ they will euidently shewe that wholly all the auncient Fathers which haue spoken of that Sacrament haue not onely confessed that hee could make his body to bee aboue in heauen and here belowe in the Sacrament but all with one accord haue declared that they beleeue according to the word of Iesus Christ that he is in heauen and here in the Sacrament The Doctors demaund of the Ministers whether they haue any that before Peter Martyr and Theodor Beza denied such power of God And let them no more set foorth the authorities of the Fathers to prooue that one body is not naturally in two places The Doctors doo not maruell if the Ministers do magnifie Peter Martyr from whom they haue taken all the places they haue brought Concerning the Article which beginneth Touching that which the Doctors pretend that the forme c. The Doctors say that this forme is common as often as men will debate of the power of God And they cannot be better guided to proue it then to follow the words of the Angel That there is nothing impossible to God From the which when a man will except something hee will alwaies bring what the Ministers do bring that there is some repugnancy of things whereof ensueth some implication of contradiction As did the olde heretiques against the flesh of Iesus Christ who brought alwayes some impossibilitie according to nature And as much did they against the Article of the Resurrection and incarnation as though there had bene contradiction that God should be man and man should be God And it shall be alwayes easie for an euil spirit to forge some contradiction in his conceit according to the proprieties of nature And concerning the Article beginning As touching that which the Doctors do adde that God can change c. The Doctors say that the Ministers haue not wel conceiued their meaning for they take for an absurd thing that a substance remaining affected of his qualities can by the power of God haue effects contrary to his qualities As if God by his omnipotencie could not make the fire hauing his naturall heate to coole in stead of burning which none of sound and Christian iudgement will deny Concerning the Article beginning Touching the limitation of the power c. The Doctors say that it seemeth by the Ministers answere that the power of God is limited according to his will as much to say as God cannot doo but what he will which is notoriously false For the Hebrew alledged the Ministers it seemeth are willing to shew they are skilfull therin For such summoning is not to the purpose when as they stay chiefly vpon the word Dauar which is as much to say as one thing But it ought not to bee vnderstood of a thing done they said to be done And such is the sence of the place ad verbum Shall there be any thing hidden from me And because hard things are hidden things impossible also are yet more hidden Behold why they haue translated Is there any thing hard or impossible to mee Which holy Pagninus and other Interpreters of the Hebrew tongue do wel declare that the verbe Pala signifieth to hide The Doctors had no desire to answer herevnto but to make it bee vnderstood that an Hebrew word doth not appaule them Cōcerning the article beginning Touching the danger c. The Doctors say that they are words superfluous and whatsoeuer the Ministers can bring the same may other vse and retort against the said Ministers And where they say it is a slaunder in that they obiect vnto them that they corrupt the scripture the Doctors say that the Ministers cannot denie but they change the sence glose the words of the Supper This is my body This is my bloud And with like authoritie as they vnder pretence of I know not what reasons may each one pretend to corrupt the other scriptures alledge some impossibilities contradictiōs of nature As touching the article beginning To that which they adde that the scripture saith that the body c. The Doctors do say that in time and place they will shewe what they haue obiected when as they shall treate more amply of the Sacrament of the Aultar Where the Doctors haue obiected that the Ministers do not ground their affirmation to wit that God cannot make one body to be in two places vpon the expresse testimonie of the scripture or can thereof deduct the same The Ministers for all places haue onely brought but these that God cannot lye God cannot denie himselfe But the Doctors say that this consequence is nought worth God cannot lye God cannot therefore make one body to be in two places which neuerthelesse the Ministers should haue made such had the places produced serued to that purpose Ioyned that when it is said God cannot lye as the Ministers themselues haue cyted to be able to lye is not power but infirmitie So that according to the true sense it was meet so to say God is not weake that he can lye Therfore God cannot make one bodie to be in two places which consequence should be ridiculous And where the Ministers haue brought certaine authorities of the auncient Fathers to proue
there is diuersitie betweene the creatures and Creator and that the Creator by nature is euery where and naturally the creatures be not in diuers places the Doctors reuerently imbrace the authoritie of the holy Fathers But to produce the said places for coÌ„firmation of a thing so well knowne and not doubted of their trauell was now needlesse But the Doctors yet attend one sole place of the scripture or one sole testimony of the auncient Fathers which saith That God cannot make one body to be in diuers places The Doctors pray the Ministers that with like reuerence they receiue the auncient Fathers chiefly touching the interpretation of holy scriptures whose exposition as are the places aboue cyted shal be agreed vpon betweene them and the Ministers Vpon request made to the Lord Neuers on the behalfe of the Ministers that hee would please to assigne a day for answere particularly to all and euery article and slaunders here aboue proposed by the Doctors in their obiection The said Lord ordained that the Ministers should carry with them that euening one of the Copies of the Doctors obiections against them to be ready the next morrow by noone to answer thervnto which the Doctors agreed vnto And made likewise request to the said Lord of Neuers to haue leaue if it so seemed them good to reply to the answers that the Ministers should make And therwith to deliuer their resolution touching this article of the omnipotency of God To th' end to proceed and examine the reall truth of the bodie of Iesus Christ in the Sacrament of the Aultar Whervnto the Ministers added that they also for their parts would deliuer a briefe resolution of all that which shall be deduced by them The company assembled on the morrow beeing Wednesday the 17. of Iuly My Lord of Neuers considering that the Doctors the day before had imployed all the time without any left for the Ministers to make present answere to them supposed no lesse time would be needfull for the Ministers to answerefully which had bene a thing tedious and irksome For this cause and others by him declared he ordained they should thenceforth speake by writing And that the Ministers should carry with them the Copie which was giuen them to make answere therevnto and to send it vnto him signed by them and two Notaries Of which he would cause a Copie to be written by his Secretary to giue it to the Doctors reseruing the Originall to himselfe And in like sort would he keepe for the Ministers the Copie of that which the Doctors should send him Wherevnto both parts submitting themselues they disputed afterwards by writing as followeth The Answere of the Ministers to the Obiections of the Doctors giuen on Tuesday the 16. of Iuly 1566. THe Ministers deny that the consequence proposed by the Doctors to wit God cannot make one body to be in two places at one selfe-same instant Therfore â—e is not omnipotent is necessary For as much as the omnipotency of God ought not to be measured but by the things only which be agreeable to his will and are not derogate either to his nature or to his wisdome or to his truth or to the order he established in the world Vnto which that directly repugneth which the Doctors set forth that one selfe same body at one selfe-same instant may be in diuers places For it would follow that a body should be a body without being limitted And by consequence that it should be and not be altogither For the measures as to be long large thicke and to be bounded limitted with certaine bounds are so essentiall to a body that without that it is no more a body And so farre of is it that the Ministers in so saying do diminish the omnipotency of God that contrariwise they establish the same and will not attribute to him any mutabilitie and chaunge in his counsaile nor any contradiction in his will for feare to make him lye which by the scripture is impossible to him And where the Doctors alledge froÌ„ the Fathers that they haue not denied the omnipotency of God The Ministers haue heretofore shewed that they haue and in what case it may happen Tertullian in his booke written against Praxeas speaking of this matter saith as followeth Surely nothing is hard vnto God But if without iudgemeÌ„t we wil vse this sentence and interpret it according to our foolish fantasie we may faine all things to be of God and say that he hath done them because he can do them Now must it not be beleeued because he can do all things that therfore he hath done what he hath not done but enquired whether he hath done it And finally concludeth that the power of God is his wil and his inhabilitie likewise his vnwillingnesse The Doctors then to shew that he can do it should declare that God hath willed to make a body which at one selfe-same instant hath bin in diuers places And a maruellous thing it is that they impute to the Ministers that they derogate from the omnipotency of God when as they do except froÌ„ the same what is contrary to his wil seeing they themselues do confesse it and except the same things And that there is no other difference between theÌ„ the Ministers but that they say that God maketh one body to be in diuers places at one selfe instaÌ„t because he can do it And the Ministers say that he doth it not and cannot do it because he wil not do it For as much as is said according to Tertullian the power of god is his wil. Touching the reason that the Doctors do alledge in Phisosophie to proue that a bodie for being a bodie doth not therfore leaue to be in diuers places The Ministers say they suppose a falshood To wit that quantitie is accidentall and not essentiall to a body For that to wit that a body is measured bounded and circumscript is in such sort of it essence that without that it is no more a bodie As S. Augustine him selfe speaking of the glorified body of Iesus Christ saith That if space be taken away from a body there is no more place where it might be and by consequence being no part is no more at all The reaso of Philosophie they propose touching the first heauen as that it is not in any place The Ministers do denie it for to speake according to the language of the scripture it must be confessed that there is place eâ—en aboue the heauens As Iesus Christ said vnto his Disciples I go to prepare a place for you And in the same place In my Fathers house there are many mansions And else where Where I am taking the present time for the future there shal my seruants be In the which sentence must be obserued that there be aduerbes of place And S. Augustine writing to Dardanus expresly saith That it behoueth that the body of Iesus Christ be in some place in heaueÌ„ because it is a true
body Moreouer in numbring of the errors sometimes coÌ„demned by the facultie of Paris it is expresly said That the heauen by them called Empyreum is the place of Angels of blessed spirits and glorified humane bodies Where the Doctors pretend that of the doctrine which the Ministers maintaine that a body cannot be without place nor in many places at one instant may be inferred that they blaspheme the omnipotencie of God The Ministers contrariwise say that the Doctors blaspheme his Maiestie and diminish the same in attributing to the creature that which appertaineth to him alone to wit to be vncircumscript As it appeareth by that which Didimus saith in his booke of the holy Ghost where he proueth that the holy Ghost is God not a creature because he is incircumscript and that al creatures necessarily be circumscript and limited As much thereof also say S. Basil and Vigilius and the Mr. of the sentences in his first booke Where they confesse that the Angels and blessed spirits be circumscript although they be not corporall This reason is against themselues and proper to proue what the Ministers haue here aboue maintained of bodies to wit that it cannot be but that they be circumscript in some place For by an argument froÌ„ the lesse to the more If the Angels which want dimension and measure by their own confession in as much as they be creatures be necessarily circumscript by a more strong reason the bodies of men which be creatures and measured shall be so likewise And where they adde that the auncient Fathers haue not said that one body by the power of God could not be in diuers places That is contrary to the saying of S. Augustine in his 30. tract vpon S. Iohn which is recited De consec distinct 2. C. Prima quideÌ„ Where speaking of the body of Iesus Christ he saith namely It behooueth that the body of our Lord wherin he rose again be in one place teaching therby that at one selfe-same time it cannot be in diuers places And touching the reason they adde taken froÌ„ the Sacrament to proue their assertioÌ„ the Ministers say that the fathers neuer vnderstood nor said that the body of Iesus Christ was in heauen and in the Sacrament in one selfe same sort maner nor do they teach that he was otherwise then Sacramentally in the Sacrament And wheras in their resolutioÌ„ they pretend to proue that the Angels may at one self instant be in diuers places when the Ministers shall haue vnderstood their reasons then they wil answere therevnto That which they say of a body it being dispoiled of it dimensions ceaseth not to be a body notwithstanding is a very absurd thing For did it happen that a corporal substance were wholly dispoiled of it dimensions it should no more be a body but an incorporeall substance of like nature as the Angels spirits And although God by his power can seperate the dimensioÌ„s of a substance without corrupting it yet can it not be that they be seperated froÌ„ a body without the corruptioÌ„ of the same Because the quantitie dimensions are accidents of the substance but not of the body which cannot subsist without them in as much as they be of it proper essence Whereas the Doctors say afterwards in their obiection that the waight in a body is a thing essentiall The Ministers do deny it And the reason is that were it of the essence of a bodie and the same wanting the bodie should cease to bee Neuerthelesse we see that the glorified bodie of Iesus Christ wherevnto the bodies of all the elect shall be like after the resurrection doth not leaue to be subsist although it be now exempted from all waight And as touching their alledged very strong and mightie argument That if two bodies may be in one selfe place togither one body at one instant may be also in diuers places The Ministers not graunting the antecedent vnder correction say that the consequence is not good and that the argument is very weake Adding therto that the Doctors haue nor prooued and neuer can prooue by the scriptures nor by any authoritie of the auncient Fathers nor by any sufficient reason that which they propose in their antecedent or the consequent which they inferre thereof to be true Wheras the Doctors to proue that two bodies may be together in one selfe place alledge out of the scripture that Iesus Christ entred into the house where his Disciples were the doores being shut The Ministers do answere that it is not written that he entred through the closed doores but only the doores being shut which the auncient Interpreter hath well giuen to vnderstand expounding in one of the places of S. Iohn where mention is made of that aboue said Cuum fores essent clausae Then when the doores were shut Iesus came c. Neuertheles the Ministers say they verily belieue and are assured of that which the scripture doth clearly say to wit that the doores being shut he came and stood in the midst of his Disciples But they cannot certainly define nor determine which way he entered whether it were through the walles or doores of wood which Hillary himselfe maketh doubt of in that place of his writings alledged by the Doctors Howsoeuer it be the Ministers do say that in entering he miraculously made way And that a body be it the wood or wall did yeeld and giue place to the body of Iesus Christ entering or that an opening was made vnto him by the Angell which opened and afterward shut againe the doores in a moment as before hath bâ—ne said And that howsoeuer it was done two bodies were neuer found in one selfe same place together Touching that they alledge out of S. Augustine in his booke de agone Christiano that Iesus Christ entered through the doores The Ministers deny not that he entred through the doores but that two bodies onely were neuer in one selfe same place together But if Iesus Christ entered through the doores that the doores at his entire gaue him place as is said For that which the Doctors alledge touching the Apostles suspition that it was a vaine vision it nought appertaineth to the present matter nor that also that they maruelled at the maner of his entry which was miraculous as they euer confessed And touching that which they adde afterwards in the opinion held by the olde heretiques of the bodie of Iesus Christ that it was not a true bodie because it did things aboue nature The Ministers doo shewe them that they litle think what occasion and foundation of their errour the auncient Fathers had presented vnto them had they confessed what the Doctors haue set foorth and doo obstinately defend of the bodie of Iesus Christ that it doth things not only aboue nature but also contrary to nature yea euen contrary to the will and ordinance of God And there is no doubt but such an opinion should be a great proofe for Marcion and other heretiques which
the persons calling the Popes Bishops Priests Antichrists Ministers of Sathan against which reproaches the Doctors content themselues to shewe by the word of God when occasion serueth that such tytles agree neither with the persons nor yet the doctrine by them preached Now although that the Ministers and their furie deserue a sharpe reply yet to mittigate their so inflamed hearts the Doctors will not answere to the iniuries which touch their persons and estates referring the whole to the iudgement of the vnpassionate readers and will only touch the points which concerne the doctrine First the Ministers do great wrong to the Doctors and their like in comparing them to Donatists and falsly to impute vnto them that they tie the Church in a certaine place as did the Donatists which placed it onely in Affrike For it is manifest to all that the Doctors know not nor confesse any other Church then the Catholique which as it name importeth hath bene visible since the Apostles time and hath her spreading through the world in what region country or place soeuer the faithfull beleeuing in Iesus Christ are Although they reuerence the Church of Rome as chiefe and principall among others as Ireneus Tertullian S. Ciprian S. Augustine and other the auncient Fathers haue giuen it this honour to confesse it to be principall and mother as it were of other Churches with more iust reason may such obiection be retorted against the Ministers who cannot say their Church to be Catholike hauing taken it beginning in our time seene known at Geneua founded vpō the priuate opinion of one man without that in former time one could shewe such opinion to haue beene holden in any Nation whatsoeuer Which thing shall be handled in it order when they shall examine the errors by the Ministers maintained against this Article I beleeue the holy Catholique Church Moreouer the Ministers should not haue alledged the violence crueltie and furie of the Donatists against the Catholiques for such example doth condemne them and their like But because it doth not but bring fresh to memorie the passed euils which Fraunce hath endured by the instigation of the Ministers for feare to incyte them further to say new iniuries the Doctors will not dwell long vpon this matter Neuerthelesse they shewe vnto the Ministers that the Donatists reproached the Catholiques that they endured persecution by them and that to roote them out they sollicited the Emperours and Magistrates euen as the Ministers doo blame the Doctors Who confesse first to desire the conuersion of all Sects and in case they will not come to repentance that the Magistrates by good and holy lawes may execute such punishment therefore as God bee not so outragiously blasphemed and the people grieued And therein they follow the doctrine of Saint Augustine expressed in an Epistle sent Advincentin contra Donatistas Where he confesseth that the Catholiques did persecute the Donatists and that contrariwise the Donatists also afflicted the Catholiques but that the persecutions were different That those of the Catholiques were not executed but by the Magistrate and came of charitie to roote out the euill which hindred the peace and tranquilitie publike And contrariwise the persecution by the Donatists was made without authoritie of the Magistrate and proceeded of malice which pretended but mischiefe and ruine and S. Augustine declareth that the first was good and of God and the second wicked and by inspiration of Sathan And to this purpose he bringeth many excellent examples of holy scripture This hath bene somewhat largely handled to purge the Doctors of the slaunder imposed on them by the Ministers where they reproach them that in their preachings writings and conferences they search but onely to roote out the Ministers whom they haue alwayes persecuted And they interpret the same as therefore proceeding from a particular hate of the Doctors against them and not of charitie and zeale of truth and of the conuersion as well of the Ministers as of those which are seduced and abused by them The Doctors therein call God to witnesse and doo protest the contrarie and pray the Ministers to beleeue them attending therevpon the iudgement of God who is the onely searcher of the hearts and affections of men As touching the Article where the Ministers say that God is almightie because he can do whatsoeuer he will had they listed to read the writings of Saint Thomas whose doctrine they disdaine well had they knowne that this reason is no reason Because the Angels and they which are blessed conforming themselues alwayes to the will of God can doo all things that they will doo and there is no creature which can hinder the effect of theyr will and yet are they not almightie And as touching the saying of S. Augustine in taking it so as the Ministers do take it The reason of Gods omnipotencie is ouer-weake and false But to haue the true vnderstanding of this sentence it behoueth to consider that there is a difference betweene the actuall will of God and the power of will For God can wil many things which he willeth not nor euer will And euen so can he will more then he actually willeth whereby they ought rather to measure his omnipotencie then to measure it according to his actuall will And thus must be interpreted the text of S. Augustine that the almightinesse extendeth to all things which he can will and not according to that he actually willeth And S. Augustine is cyted by the Ministers being destitute of testimonie of scripture albeit they vaunted in their former answere to haue learned this reason by the scriptures In the article following the Ministers by slaunder doo falsly taxe the Doctors to haue cut off some words of theyr last writing which will not be found to bee true For the text of the Doctors beareth these words It is not to bee doubted but that aboue all conceit and imagination of humane spirit the power of God is great infinite and incomprehensible Where it clearly appeareth that the Doctors speake generally of all conceit and imagination without any exception thereof be it of wisedome or folly Therfore was it not needfull to expresse the words of the Ministers seeing that the Doctors spake generally And that which goeth before doth shewe the same as the Ministers haue cyted it where it is said that the Doctors reproued the said Ministers because they gaue some restraint and limitation of the omnipotencie of God For as much as they would not stretch it generally to all the things which men can conceiue and in their mindes imagine Where the words generally and all things do sufficiently declare that the Doctors haue willed to comprehend end the foolish phantasies and imaginations themselues which men may apprehend according to humane iudgement and haue willed to cut off nothing from the writing of the Ministers who peraduenture haue thought the Doctors would not say that God can doo all that which a foolish braine can
that it was not needfull to adde that word expresly there For as much as there is no man so ignorant who hauing vnderstood that a body is circumscript but doth presently inferre that then it is comprised in a place certaine As touching the Camell if they be not contented with that alreadie said thereof then let them reade what Saint Ierome hath thereof written in his first booke against the Pelagians who expounding the words of Iesus Christ saith as followeth In this hath the Lord not said that it may be done but hath compared one impossibilitie with an other For as a Camell cannot enter through the eye of a needle so the rich shall not enter into the Kingdome of heauen Now if thou canst shewe that the rich man there entereth it will also follow that the Camell may passe through the eye of a needle And alledge not vnto me Abraham and the others which we read in the old Testament to haue bene rich and which being such were entered into the kingdome of heauen because they well vsing their riches and imploying them to good workes haue by that meane ceased to be rich Behold what S. Ierome writeth Thē as it is necessary after the saying of S. Ierome that for the saluation of the rich man there be a mutation and changing in his heart yea and that hee cease to be rich to the end hee may enter into the kingdome of heauen so also it behoueth that there be a chaunge in the Camell and that hee cease to be such that he may be made to passe through the eye of a needle As touching the article following the Ministers say that by the grace of God they may discerne the light from darknesse and falshood from truth Which is the cause that they cannot approue neither the arguments nor conclusions of the Doctors touching the being of one body in many places at one instant being well assured by good and certaine testimonies of the scripture that all whatsoeuer the Doctors will proue not else-where proceedeth then from the spirit of error and falshood Which wil retaine by that meane the impietie and Idolatrie which hee hath formerly established in the world to the ruine almost of all Christendome As touching the verbe Dierchesthai the Doctors finde themselues much hindred to saue their penetration which they can no way found vpon the proper signification of that word as hath bene shewed them by the passages produced vnto them not vpon any authoritie of the scripture To that which the Doctors alledge to proue that faith commeth in part of our selues not wholy of God that Nemo credit nisivolēs to wit that none beleeueth but willingly the Ministers answer that vnder our Maisters correction it is nought to the purpose for as much as this will and consent is of God who worketh in the faithfull both the will and the deed Which thing S. Augustine in one of his Epistles verie well teacheth where he saith That when God calleth men to saluation he findeth not in them any good will at all but that he worketh and createth it in their hearts if he wil finde it there And that of S. Paul which the Doctors alledge that we are coworkers with God serueth nothing for their purpose For the Apostle speaketh not there but of the Ministery And meant no other thing then what hee writeth therof more clearly in the 2. to the Corinths in these words We are Embassadors for Christ as if God exhorted by vs. And touching that which they adde that none of all the auncient Doctors euer taught that one body could not be in diuers places at one selfe-same time The Ministers say yea As they haue shewed in their former writings where the passages of S. Augustine Ad Dardanum and in the 30. tract vpon S. Iohn and others haue bene alledged The Ministers answere not but to two points onely of all that the Doctors haue touched in theyr aduertisement The first is that theyr Sermons theyr writings theyr discipline obserued in theyr Churches the censures which they passe for scandalous offences therein committed the care which they and the Superintendents haue to discouer reprooue and correct them the paine which they take to reforme whatsoeuer is disordered and the publique prayers which in all places they make to these endes defend them with all good people and iustifie them against the slanders of the Doctors The second is that the Doctors in theyr sayd aduertisement are deceiued in that they haue said that Abraham doubted of the promise Which is wholy contrary to that which the Apostle in the 4. of the Romanes thereof writeth Where in these proper termes he saith And he nothign doubted of the promise of God through vnbeliefe but was strengthened in the faith and gaue glorie vnto God For answere to the Doctors last Obiection made as they say agaynst the answere giuen by the Ministers to theyr former Question vppon the matter of the Supper Although the sayd Doctors do faigne not any way to affect delaie in the Conference and Dispute of the Supper and of the Masse yet can they not perswade any person of any iudgement that they haue not hetherto retyred and doo yet drawe backe from entering thereinto For notwithstanding some requests presented by Madame de Buillon and the Ministers some declaration which my Lorde the Duke of Niuernois hath made therevppon of his will and desire to bring them therevnto yet by all the meanes aboue-sayd hath it not beene possible to obtaine of them that all other thinges set apart they would in good earnest conferre with the Ministers of the two points aforesaid Which thing the Ministers perceiuing and not desiring to depart from them without conference first had therof haue often protested to dispute no more with them till these two Articles were first decyded and resolued And to this ende proposed certaine Theses by order and good methode as well of the one as of the other to the ende they should well aduise what in the sayd Theses they would gainsay and withstand The Doctors hauing dissembled the same in stead of pursuing of them doo propose other friuolous and vnprofitable questions taken and drawne from theyr Schoole diuinitie And although the Ministers had iust occasion to grieue that theyr Theses were omitted by the Doctors neuerthelesse to the ende they should haue no more shadowe nor colour of delaie the Ministers haue also answered to their last questions But now in stead of following theyr Answeres and impugning of them if any way they could they propose againe newe questions no lesse absurd and friuolous then the former Whereby each one may euidently knowe theyr hypocrisie and dissimulation And that pretending a willingnesse to conferre of the two foresaide pointes they doo in the meane time what in them possiblie lyeth to drawe them from the Conference thereof to the ende it may breake off before that this matter be cleared By meanes whereof the Ministers for conclusion and