tooke for the establishing of theirs 51 Quaere whether T. Cartw. and his fellowes haue not assembled in synodes and conuenticles 2 Examinations in the starre chamber and their own confessions there enacted and decreed certaine rules and orders contrary to her Maiesties lawes and subscribed them and procured others to subscribe them and by all meanes possible gone about to put the same in practise and to discredite and disgrace the lawes of her maiestie and ancient gouernement of the Church Quaere whether in their saide 3 Disciplina sacra orders which they call holy discipline all authoritie in Church causes is not taken from the Christian magistrate and giuen to their assemblies in so much that the magistrate is not so much as mentioned when they talke of their new gouernement and how the sufferance of these proceedinges may stand with the maiestie of a prince or with good gouernment 53 Quaere whether they doe not 1 T.C. pag. 162 163 417. discours of eccl discip pag. 148. 174. holde that the authoritie which they challenge to their elderships and synodes by their said platformes of discipline is neyther increased nor diminished whether the prince bee Christian or heathen and teach not that the authoritie of a Christian and heathen prince is all one in ecclesiasticall causes 54 Quaere 2 That is in part euident by their confessions in the Starre chamber whether Cartwright and his adherentes haue not put the greatest part of their discipline in practise without her Maiesties consent and authoritie and without the sayde authoritie haue not both made secrete meetings and established diuers orders and broched new opinions all contrary to the doctrine confession and gouernement of the Church of England 55 Quaere by what presumption he durst do these things and why hee is not to bee brought publikely to submit himselfe for his faults 56 Quaere whether the same seditious proceedings bee not condemned in certaine actes made in the parliament holden Anno 1584 at Edenborough 57 Quaere 3 In his examinations in the Starre chamber whether Th. Cartwright sware truely in the Starre chamber when hee affirmed on his oath that hee neuer affirmed or allowed that in euery Monarchie there ought to bee certaine magistrates like the Spartaine Ephori with authoritie to depose the king c. seeing the same poynt is in Fenners booke of diuinity which one Th. Cartwr in his Epistle printed before the booke doth highly commende as a profound piece of diuinity and heauenly axiomes and doctrine and whether if some other had so sworne they should not haue bene accounted periured persons and whether by the rules of discipline it bee lawfull for the edification of the consistorie to sweare falsely 58 Quaere 4 Examinations in the Starre chamber published whether haue not T.C. and his fellowes confessed on their oathes that notwithstanding all the care that hath beene taken for the perfecting of their platformes of discipline they are not yet resolued vpon diuers poyntes and whether they did wisely to subscribe such orders or duetifully to animate certaine gentlemen of meane vnderstanding in diuinitie to present such a confused platforme of gouernment to the parliament that it might bee confirmed and receiued throughout the whole Realme and finally whether wisedome will permit men to dissolue a state alreadie setled and to embrace a gouerment whereupon the authours themselues are not yet resolued nor I thinke neuer will bee and wherein others see notorious absurdities imperfections and iniustice 59 Quaere 1 Ibid. whether T.C. and his companions doe not say vpon their othes that they meant to haue bene suiters to her Maiestie and the parliament for the approbation and receiuing of their draught of discipline before mentioned and subscribed vnto by them as a perfect plat of Church gouernement commanded by Gods worde doe not vtterly disclaime by a most necessarie implication her Maiestie to haue any preheminence and authoritie in ecclesiasticall causes by the word of God seeing they doe not giue any authoritie in their perfect platforme to the ciuill magistrate but yeelde all that power to their synodes classes and consistories 60 Quaere whether Cartwr and some of his fellowes and followers were not acquainted with the conspiracie of Hacket 1 Conspiracy for reformation Coppinger and Arthington and whether they knewe not that these fellowes or some of them pretended to haue an extraordinary calling which mooued them to attempt matters which might proue very dangerous to themselues whether also they knew not that the actions which they purposed to attempt by vertue of their calling did tende to their deliuerance out of prison and to the aduancing of the holy cause as they tearmed it and thereupon at Coppingers motion did holde a puritane fast wherein prayers were made to this effect that God woulde giue successe to all such meanes as shoulde bee attempted for the deliuerance of the Saintes of God and for the setting vp of their discipline and whether T. Cartw. and the wiser sort of them did not vnderstand whereto the foresaid allobrogicall and outlandish propositions of extraordinary callings did tend and finally whether all these points being such as in part haue and may fully bee prooued against them they haue not bene mercifully dealt withall and farre aboue their desertes that they haue not hitherto bene called therefore in question 61 Quaere whether Cartw. and his fellowes challenging to their eldership authority to excommunicate princes are not like to prooue as dangerous subiectes as Sanders Parsons or Card. Allen are in maintaining the popes excommunication of her Maiestie and whether it is not likely considering the inconstancie of their discipline and resolutions that although some of them pretend now to holde that excommunication doth not take away ciuill subiection they will notwithstanding for their aduantage teach contrary to their present resolutions 62 Quaere whether some one of the reformed 1 Buchanan de iure regniapud Scot. pag. 70. brotherhood haue not mainteyned in bookes printed that princes standing excommunicate may bee put to death and that when princes will not reforme religion subiects ought to do it and that saint 2 Buchan ibid. pag. 56. 57. Paules precepts of obedience to tyrants bind no further then vntil such time as the people is strong inough to resist be able to master them by force of armes 63 Quaere whether Sanders Rosse Allen and other papistes doe not in the behalfe of poperie maintaine the very same poyntes of rebellion together with Goodman Whittingham Knoxe and their teachers Beza Hotoman Buchanan and whether both factions haue not made princes subiect to the people and populer furie and taught the same doctrine of the beginning of the authoritie of princes the papistes seeking to erect their papacy the disciplinarians endeuouring to set vp their papall presbyterie 64 Quaere whether some of the doctors of this new discipline doe not mislike with the
forger be packing that without authoritie maketh out new commissions and new lawes Their desire is that euery congregation c. might haue one Petitioner or two sufficient teachers c. faithfully labouring in the worde of God or doctrine If their congregations be as great as shires Answere two would be too litle for euery such congregation and besides that the course that is alreadie taken for preachers is better then they can deuise any For now in diuers shires there bee hundreds of preachers distinguished in parishes If euery parish bee a sufficient congregation as in deede it is how shall two bee maintained in euery parish where as nowe not euery tenth parish with the liuing that belongeth to the Church is able to maintaine one preacher Doth he thinke men wil enlarge their liuing If he doe he doth but dreame And as for the deuises of him that cogged vs forth the motion with submission sounding an alarme to the sacrilegious spoyle of the Church they would bee the ouerthrowe rather of learning then the maintenance of the ministerie for other great birds gape for that pray As for these poore dawes when they haue made way for others they may go picke wormes for any part they can get thereof themselues when Abbeyes were ouerthrowen 1 That appeareth by the preface of the statute concerning that poynt erecting of schooles hospitals and colledges of preachers was pretended but whither the spoyle went wee doe well vnderstand and doe not thinke that there will be other prouision nowe then was then or that men will in spoyling bee more religious now then some were then They woulde haue assisting elders Petitioner c. that should not encroch on the magistrates authoritie and they would haue the most honest and sufficient men togather for the poore and keepe the treasure of the Church The treasurie of the Church woulde bee so thinne Answere if this deuise of elders and lay deacons shoulde take place that they shoulde not neede to take any care for the keeping of the treasurie At Geneua and in the reformed Churches of France as they call them the treasurie is all but one poore almes boxe They neede not feare robbing why then should any that fauoureth the Church like of their beggerly deuise or of assisting elders proctors for the poore that are but new conceits calculated by a glasse of wine vnknowen to scriptures fathers and antiquitie and borne out with sacing and sauour of nought but sacriledge Neyther can his aldermen nor lay deacons bee prooued nor doe they abstaine from encroching vpon the magistrate nor will any such men as hee supposeth take on them the base function of lay deacons and therefore all these desires are nothing but a fardell of foolerie They would haue olde helpers so quallified Petitioner as the Apostle commandeth 1. Tim. 5. Doe they knowe what they would haue Answere Let them shewe eyther commandement in scripture or practise in the primitiue Church or Church of Geneua of their olde widowes and then I woulde hope they had some care or knowledge what they desired if they cannot then I woulde pray some yong helpers to helpe vs away with such old fablers They would haue all these ordeyned in such maner Petitioner and by such persons as the word of God practise of the primitiue Church and moderne Churches doth warrant What if these moderne Churches neyther agree among themselues Answere nor with the worde of God nor primitiue Church will you not then confesse that you require things not coherent and that cannot stand together Looke where you finde any lawles counterfeite lay elders in the ancient Church or where any ordeyned but the bishop looke whether at Geneua there bee consistories in euery parish and what authoritie they haue And see whether Scotland doth not condemne imposition of handes and diuers orders which Geneua alloweth All these deuises cannot stand together and therefore if you had learned any thing in lawe you might well vnderstand that forasmuch as you alledge things contrary your libell and petitions are to bee reiected They desire synodes particuler prouinciall and nationall Petitioner and moderators of them They must shew better reasons Answere or else no man will regarde their desires Oecumenicall synodes and synodes of diuerse nations they exclude and ridiculously distinguish particuler from prouinciall synodes and make particoloured synodes and a mash of lawes fitter for sicke horses then men And by the same they goe about to ouerthrow the ancient gouernement of the Church the lawes of the Realme the prerogatiue and reuenues of the Crowne and to say all in one worde both religion and learning They woulde Petitioner that the partie grieued might appeale from the particuler congregation or synode at the first instance to the magistrate This seemeth to mee a poynt that will hardly bee prooued Answere for the common receiued opinion is contrary Beza doth flatly deny it and others exclude the prince from all iudgement yea and office in ecclesiasticall causes This fellowe therefore is the onely singuler doctor of discipline that giueth cognition of appeales from synodes to the prince But marke I pray you the ridiculous ignorance of this simple fellowe first he would haue the appeale from the synode or particuler congregation in the first instance And yet euery man may see that the first instance was where the cause was first begunne that is in the parish or consistorie and not before the synode Secondly he wil not say that any man may appeale in the last instance for that were too much as hee thinketh so that still running on in the disloyall tunes of puritanes hee taketh from the prince the last cognition and giueth it to his synodes They desire that such people Petitioner as be alreadie capable and willing to liue as becommeth Churches of Christ might liue as they bee commanded by Christ If euery man might liue as he list Answere so hee coloured his pretence with Gods word and Christes commandement there would neyther papist nor other heritike be repressed for euery man maketh religion and Christs commandement a couer for his pretences But gladly would I he should answere me this question whither hee doth thinke that none doe liue as becommeth Churches of Christ but such as haue his dogbolt deuises of elders and their doltish gouernement if hee answere so as here he seemeth then must I tell him that there can be no greater slander of this state or of her Maiestie and the gouernement If not what doth he tell vs here of people capable and willing to liue as becommeth the Churches of Christ as if the people of England were neither capable nor willing so to liue Againe let him tell mee in good sooth whither hee doth beleeue that the consistorie and newe discipline thereto belonging was in deede commaunded by Christ and if hee beleeue it let him shewe the place and the
frameth an articulat infamous libell A second fault it is that such leude and shamefull practises are notwithstanding sayd to be drawen by a fauourer of reformation as if there were no difference betwixt slandering and reforming A third fault hee committeth in affirming these questions to be annexed by the Printer But the greatest fault is that such shamefull libels are commonly solde and the authors passed ouer without punishment Quaere first whether Iustice Wray did not affirme Putcase Quaest 1. that men should incurre no penaltie for opinions which they helde doubtingly and whether a man may not without breach of lawe make Quaerees and doubtes whether I may not be a Putcase I haue enquired of those Answere that were present at the time when these wordes are pretended to bee spoken and they doe assure me that hee neuer vttered any such words which I haue no reason to doubt of for it is not probable that so reuerend and learned a Iudge shoulde mayntaine or deliuer so strange an assertion for in matters fundamentall of faith to doubt is haeresie as all diuines doe agree And in externall matters the Apostle saith that whatsoeuer is not of faith is sinne And who woulde not detest him that would make a doubt whether these disciplinarians be impious and flagitious fellowes that affirme it to be lawfull to make doubts and questions in those cases The very Paganes were farre more reasonable then this impious Putcase For the Athenians banished 1 Cie de natur Deor. Protagoras for doubting whether there were a God or no. As for matters of state I doubt not but whosoeuer shall doubt and make a question and not categorically affirme that her Maiestie hath right to her crowne and is supreme Gouernour within her dominions in all causes and ouer all persons is a ranke traytor Let therefore Pierce Putcase looke to it a little better and cleare himselfe of doubting and questioning least hee bee taken for a traytor out of doubt To come to the matter in question it is also euident that whosoeuer doth make questions to the diffamation eyther of the gouernment or gouernours or of priuate persons liuing in obedience of lawes he is to be punished as a libeller And therfore I would wish the man to shut vp himselfe in a case to take heed that he be not taken abroad For he wil be in a very bad case for his libelling and putting of cases if euer his reuelling against her Maiestie her ecclesiasticall lawes her officers and many other good men shal come in scanning Quaere Putcase Quaest 2. whether the forme of prayers administratiō of sacramēts attyre of ministers other ceremonies in England do more agree to the Apostolicall and primitiue order or to the vse of the Romish church whether popish orders be more seemely thē the Apostolike The questioner supposeth that I will answere that Answere which maketh for his purpose not doubting but to cut vs downe with the next blow But in vaine doth he feed himself with his owne conceit For I answere and will shewe that our liturgie and ceremonies agree neerer to the liturgie and ceremonies of the primitiue Church then to the popish orders And that is apparent first in quality for that wee haue purged out all idolatrie superstition false doctrine in which the papists do most differ from the ancient Church Secondly in forme For as the Iewes had readings of the law certaine hymnes and prayers interposed so no doubt the Apostles kept the reading of scriptures with prayers interposed which forme we keepe the papists keepe not The papists reade no scriptures and haue other formes of prayers Thirdly in the language for as in anciēt time so now we vse our mother tōgue Nay further we come neerer in our formes to the primitiue church then the consistorial orders For they haue no set reading of scrptures nor forme of liturgie as they had in the times of the first fathers and are so vnlike them that they haue abolished al the orders of the ancient Church They haue no set praiers but leaue al to the discretion of their speaker as they cal him who cōceiueth prayers either so confused that they are not vnderstood or so vncharitable that a true Christian may not say Amen Contrariwise ancient counsels decreed that no praiers should bee said in the church but such as first should by cōmon authority be allowed And albeit apparel is a matter indifferent yet in publike liturgie wee come neerer to the Apostolike Church whereas the puritanes haue abolished al Apostolike orders as they haue abolished al Apostolike gouernement To the last part of the question whether popish ceremonies bee more decent then Apostolicall I answere that where they are contrarie there the Apostolike is more decent But I denie that eyther the newe consistoriall gouernement or the ceremonies by the same appointed are Apostolicall or that our ceremonies are papisticall Nay I say that their newe orders are not Apostolicall but fantasticall and that our gouernement is Apostolicall neyther shall they euer be able to prooue the contrary Quaere Putcase Quaest 3. whether our rites and ceremonies doe not giue offence to the papists and whether indifferent things causing offence ought not by Pauls doctrine to be remooued out of the Church Whether they giue offence to the papistes or no Answere wee are not to respect nor to omit ancient and Apostolike orders to please them To good men the vse of our ceremonies cannot giue iust offence Nay rather the confusion of the newe gouernment and absurditie in the newe liturgie giueth offence for it confirmeth the papists in their opinion and offendeth all that are comming forward to ioyne with vs. For they see not how that can be the Church that refuseth all ancient gouernement and ceremonies and is nothing but a bundell of nouelties And therefore in vaine is the latter part of the question propounded whether matters that giue offence be by S. Pauls doctrine to be remooued for wee denie that our ceremonies doe giue offence Quaere Putcase Quaest 4. whether the square cappe surplesse c. condemned in generall by the Queenes Iniunctions bishops articles and doctrine of England and other Churches misliked by Bullinger Alasco Bucer Pilkington Bale and other learned men be decent and comely for a preacher and being vncomely whether they should not be abolished out of the Church First it is denied Answere that the attyre of ministers in England now is condemned by the Queenes iniunctions or bishops articles or doctrine of England A shamelesse man was he that affirmed it so impudently and so to bee credited accordingly for the contrary is euident both by doctrine of the Church and law of the realme And neuer shall this bold bayardlike Putcase prooue them either to be monumentes of poperie or defiled with idolatrie let him begin when he wil. What other Churches mislike in themselues we do not
consistorian faction good because some here mentioned fauoured it for some had one respect some another and were men of strange Diuinitie for the most part which I could iustifie by particulars but I will not trouble the rest of those that are dead nor disgrace those that are aliue Let them be as good as they are supposed yet doe I beleeue one Father in matters of Diuinitie before them all Besides that diuers men here named neuer fauoured the Consistorie as the last French kings the Dukes of Saxony other Christian potentates neither did the Frenchmen contend for the Consistory which came to be afterwarde established but for religion And well it is knowen that both the Earle of Leycester and Sir Francis Walsingham in their latter times renounced these men confessing that they had bene greatly abused by their hypocrisie Neither do I thinke that Sir Nicholas Bacon Sir Walter Mildemay and such noble counsellours woulde fauour factious fellowes or suppose these whome the Libeller defendeth to bee good subiects Nay one of them hath spoken most earnestly in open Parliament against them and their Elderships so that this argument that standeth on such false assertions and weake authoritie cannot be good If this argument be sufficient to proue them good subiects albeit they deny her Maiesties supremacie in Ecclesiasticall causes and slander her gouernement then Papists and traitors may by the same be prooued to be good subiects for great Princes states and potentates fauour their cause The Bishops and other ministers that liue in obedience of Lawe cannot with those faultes bee charged and therefore are wronged to bee matched with these mutinous mates that with multitude and power rather then reason seeke to preuayle Yet haue they against them all the ancient fathers all counsels all learned men of time past yea all antiquitie yea many learned men of our time with whome neither for nomber nor authoritie are these fellowes to bee compared Quaere Putcase Quest 40. whether a Minister ought not to admonish the mightiest Prince of his duetie refuse to administer the sacrament vnto him if he bee a notorious offender and pronounce him to bee no member of Christ in the communion of Saintes if hee continue obstinate in open crimes and whether vnder the Law Dauid and other princes were not subiect to ceremoniall expiations and the spirituall power of Priestes and Prophets and whether Ambrose did well in vsing like authority towards an Emperour and lastly whether Zanchus Caluin Bucer Nowel Iewel Bilson and Bridges approouing the like be traytors Popes and tyrants If a minister may doe all these seruices against a prince Answere what should any neede to desire the Eldership forsoothe belike one is too fewe to suppresse a princes authoritie for this cause it is not fitting that any such power should bee granted eyther to ministers or to consistories for that which is alledged viz. that ministers may admonish princes maketh nothing for the consistory nor excommunication of princes by ministers for betwixt publike and generall admonitions and excommunication there is no small difference euery minister may vse that according to his place and calling but it were somewhat too sawcy a matter for euery hot braynd fellowe to vse this especially against princes neither did either the priests excōmunicate Dauid nor Ambrose pronounce sentence against Theodosius he did only exclude him from his owne communion nor do I find where any of these learned men euer did make the soueraine prince subiect to a cocke braynd fellowes curse If he were subiect then were he no soueraine prince then should euery minister controlle the prince which is absurd repugnant to state but as this felow doth insinuate Dauid was subiect to ceremonial expiations admitte it were so yet great difference there is betweene these expiations voluntarily vndertaken and excommunication violently pronounced as learned men haue shewed There is no other meanes whereby the 1 Machiauel histor fiorent lib. 1. Popes grewe great at the first then by excommunication shall we then recall againe the Papall tyrannie shall we establish the instrument of so many rebellions shall wee admit such foolish conditionall sentences which all Lawes condemne As for Nowel Bilson Bridges and others writing against papistes they doe not simply auowe such excommunication of princes as these would haue but prooue that other bishops may proceede therein as farre as the bishops of Rome and that with them they haue equall authoritie Quaere Put-case Quest 41. why there may not bee vnder a Christian Magistrate Pastors Teachers Elders Deacons and Widowes aswell as Parsons Lecturers Schoolemasters Churchwardens Collectours for the poore and Hospitall women seeing these doe and may execute in authoritie and power the whole forme of Church gouernment desired though their practise thereof is infinitely corrupted against the Canons of the Apostles to the danger of the Church and dishonour of the Realme First it is false Answere that they may execute the same authoritie that the Eldershippe may Who would not bee ashamed to affirme that our Churchwardens may excommunicate any person or that any with vs beside the Prince and parliament might make Lawes and orders but hee that shameth of nothing But suppose they doe some things which the aldermen doe yet were it no reason because these doe somewhat by lawe that we should admit a gouernment contrary to lawes to state to her Maiesties prerogatiue to al scriptures fathers antiquity yea to sence reason That which he saith that the offices of our churchwardens and hospitall men are corrupt to the danger of the church and dishonour of the real me is nothing but a sound of great words without reason for neither are the offices so corrupt as he pretendeth nor is there in thē danger or disgrace nay the worst of our churchwardens are as honest wise and learned as his church-aldermen as fit to gouerne as they yea and our collectors be as good as his deacons and that hospitals be not corrupt T.C. will looke that is a master of an hospitall and a man voy de of all corruption and good dealing Quaere whether the Ecclesiasticall high commission be not in effect an Eldership wherein some gouerne with Ministers Put-case Quest 42. who by profession are temporall Lawyers Ciuilians meere laye men and whether this gouernment consisting of spirituall and temporall persons be a meddley and lynsey wolsey discipline as the Remonstrance calleth the Eldership which is now desired Nothing is more repugnant Answere nor with lesse reason compared together then the high commission eldership If I did not tell them so much yet me thinketh that their continuall declayming against the high cōmission as proceeding contrary to lawes might teache them so much for if they be so like as this fellowe nowe recanting his rayling against the high commission pretendeth why should not wee take exceptions against the imperious aldermanship of the church as these doe against
crowne and for a contumacious and rebellious person that maketh question whether hee ought to obey such lawes as her Maiestie and the whole parliament and wisest men of England haue thought to bee godly and conuenient and lastly in what case the Putcase and his fellowes are that in broade speeches openly and in printed bookes directly oppugne them and by calumnious questions pinch at them 2 Quaere whether those that woulde ouerthrowe not onely the priuiledges and liberties of the Church of England but also the whole ecclesiasticall state their iurisdiction and liuings seeke not the ouerthrowe of Magna charta and infinite statutes and of a great part of the common lawes of this Realiue and seeke the dishonour of her Maiestie and the state by requiring at her handes things that tende to the violating of her oathe taken at the time of her coronation and the ouerthrowe of the rewardes of learning and whether such as are chiefe doers in these causes are longer to bee suffered to proce do in their presumption 3 And because the Putcase maketh mention of that reuerende Iudge Sir Christopher Wray late lorde chiefe Iustice of England let him also answere whether hee did nor both in his opinion as a iudge and in bitter reâ—mes as a man in vtter dislike of these mens obstinacie coudemne those that obstinately refused before ecclesiastical iudges to take their othes or to declare being examined mattens concerning themselues or others so farre as then concerned had life or member and whether the reuerend learned iudge and lawyers of England haue not resolued the proceedings of ecclestasticall courts to be lawfull and disallowed the notorious contumacie of those men that refused notwithstanding vpon their owne vaine conceipts to answere 4. Quaere whether the booke of Fenner that is intituled sacra Theologia and came forth with the Pythagoricall allowance of T. C. conteine not strange diuinitie and whether it be likely that the resolutions of the consistorie shoulde bemore learned then the positions of two such omniscient diuines 5 Quaere whether it bee not reason to make T.C. recant those dangerous opinions he hath published in that booke and whether those that made the newe communion booke are not to be called in question for publishing of new confessions offaith and new doctrine 6 Let also great inquiry be made by what law or title the churchaldermen do clayme so large authority both in ecclesiasticall and domesticall matters as lately they haue taken vpon them in some churches k Quaere what is become of the actes and memorials of the consistorie that is supposed to haue beene both in the Church of God vnder the lawe and vnder the Gospell and what may bee the reason that so famous men should neither haue their names nor doings mentioned in any historie holy or prophane or other writing Quaere whether such as suffer their children to die without baptisme because the time of the assembly of the congregation commeth not betweene their birth and death are not guilty of contempt of baptisme and whether they that teach this doctrine bee found christians that rather then they will breake a consistorial rule will suffer christians children to depart without the badge and marke of christianitie 9 Quaere whether they that cal those scriptures which are commonly called Apocryphall lyes and fables doe therein declare themselues to haue the iudgement of learned men or modestie of ciuill persons seeing the fathers of olde time and diuers learned men of our times also doe honor them next after the Canonicall scriptures 1 Zanch. confess and whether T.C. would not take it in euill part to haue his voluminous replies called lyes and fables which notwithstanding are farre inferior to the worst part of the Apocryphal scriptures 10 Quaere whether the consistoriall constitutions doe not bring into vse the iudiciall lawes of Moses as for example that of retaliation of capitall punishments of adulterie and blasphemie and whether felonies that were by Moses lawe punished ciuilly may not be punished with death and whether that the Consistoriall faction doeth not deny her Maiestie power to pardon offenders that by Moses iudiciall lawes are to be punished with death 11 Quaere how it happeneth that the disciplinarians shame not to speake against Bishops which themselues deny not to haue bene euer in the Church since the Apostles times and which we offer to proue to haue authoritie by the word of God seeing they commend a fond and new found gouernement that hath neither authoritie of lawe nor confirmation by ancient practise the lawes whereof are most absurde and vnreasonable 12 Quaere by what authoritie they interpre the wordes Dic Ecclesiae and presbyteriqui bene praesunt c. and the wordes of the Apostle 1. Cor. 12.28 Ephes 4.10 Rom. 12. contratrarie to all the ancient fathers to histories to themselues yea contrarie to the text it selfe and common reason 13. Quaere why Ministersshould not be forced as well to subscribe to the gouernmeÌ„t of the church of England as the ministers of France to the French discipline they of Geneua to the ordinances of Geneua these being so lately inuented and established and hauing so notorious exceptions against them and being no way to be compared to the orders of our Church for authoritie antiquitie or other good condition or qualitie 14 Quaere whether the Consistorie decreeing and proceeding contrarie to the discipline of France and Geneua and their new Zion is to be allowed or obeyed and whether euery acte of the Consistorie be lawe to binde the rest of that congregation and if it be then what certeintie can be in that gouernement and whether that gouernement be not worse then papall seeing the Popes proceede according to their owne lawes these fellowes will not be bounde by any lawes either of their owne or others 15 Quaere if the Consistories sentence be the sentence of the Church whereunto euery one is to obey and he that obeyeth not to be holden as a heathen and publican how it chanceth that the Synode sometimes is so bolde as to reuerse the Consistories sentence and not to holde the disobedient as a publican and sinner 16 Quaere if by the wordes It shall not be so with you all power of ordination iudgement making and executing of orders deposing of ministers and such like authoritie be taken from Bishops by what reason the ministers of the new discipline in their new Consistories and Synodes take on them so peremptorily to put in and out and to make lawes and to determine most absolutely and imperiously 17 Quaere what time of the yeere and vnder what signe the resolutions of the Consistorie are most ripe viz. whether when the sunne entereth into Aries or Capricorne or in haruest time or midsommer moone and whether a madman that hath Lucida interualla as one of the authors of the petition hath bee a sound man to make a piller of the Consistorie and what order is to be taken
case the synode should determine that he should pay some part whether godly brethren or prophane men should first be payd or else for auoyding of controuersie none at all 91 Quaere of Iohn Penry whether if Moses lawes haue such continuance as they holde in this newe kingdome a bastard that is excluded out of the sanctuarie may notwithstanding intrude without calling into the ministery 92 Quaere of those that make braggs of T. Cartw. great worke against the Rhemists whether there be not many points therein conteined contrary to all the fathers to the faith of this church and all good Diuinitie and why if all bee cleare with him he dare not suffer the same to abide the censures of lerned men and lastly why any should wonder that such thinges should not bee published considering what dangerous effectes doe followe printing of hereticall and schismaticall bookes 93 Quaere if a certaine consistoriall president at Middleburg when a marchant did pursue a certaine seruant of his in lawe for wasting his goods did not threaten to excommunicate him if hee would not desist his pursute and let fall his action and whether the consistory may serue for a sanctuanie for bad men and bankruptes if they professe reformation and whether this maner of discipline dissolue not ciuill contractes and hinder iustice 94 Quaere whether that the Church-aldermen doe not sometimes meddle in domesticall matters betwixt man and wife and hinder the fathers correction of his seruantes or children whether this be not a way to dissolue the bonds of nature that giueth authoritie in this case and whether the discipline that vseth this practise bee not vnciuill and vnnaturall To conclude Quaere if the Put-case had not done his clyents and their cause more good by silence then by this weake and calumnious speaking It were an easie matter to frame infinite Questions of like sort but these may suffice to let the Libeller see his owne folie in charging others when himselfe and his fellowes lye so open besides that I would not weary thee nor disfurnish my selfe of new matter against the next encounter let him article and play the Put-case as oft as hee will hee must not thinke hee shall walke vp and downe without answere or controulment in the meane while Pag. 83. because he appealeth to iudges and craueth iustice to them wee are also content to submit our cause and doe also instantly craue iustice iudge we beseech you all to whom the execution of iustice is committed whether it bee fitting that such as declame against the ancient gouernment of the Church euer knowen to bee in the Church since Christes time against the authority and preheminence of her Maiestie against the lawes of the realme against the proceedings of Iudges and take on them to controll and reuerse the sentences of iudges and seeke the trouble of the realme and maintenance of leud factions destitute of all ground and speake for a gouernement neuer heard of but of late nor that hath confirmation of scriptures or fathers iudge I say whether such intollerable pride arrogancie and disloyalty and those that defend these trecherous dealings and opinions in bookes printed in corners and without names are longer to bee suffered the inconueniences that may growe of these courses I neede not to declare vnto you that are men of iudgement and experience the weakenesse of their cause I haue sufficiently declared Why shoulde you doubt to doe iustice in so cleare a cause and against such factious persons For their doings haue no defence nor their doctrine support beside the bare opinions of Caluin Beza their followers they haue not so much as any groūd of reason no scripture no father no history no law nor example of good gouernmēt nay they haue both scriptures fathers histories lawe and reason against them most euidently and clearely and therfore I say againe let iustice be done if any of the ecclesiastical state haue done against law let them bee punished let not religion and learning suffer for the sinnes of particulars the innocent let them not be disgraced for others offences nor let malice and faction and sacriledge preuayle against lawe and gouernement that which is now their case may be likewise yours if you respect not the cause of men yet consider that it is the cause of religion learning and gouernment and so proceed as you may declare your selues to be men carefull of the aduancement of religion and learning and the maintenance of a peaceable gouernment and God so belsse you as you shew your selues studious of religion learning peace and iustice ⧠An Aduertisement to the Reader WHereas in the former discourse somewhat hath bene said in answere of the Petitioners lewd calumniations concerning the triall of Iohn Vdal and the iudgement not long since pronounced against him which he pretendeth to be disorderlie and iniurious it may be that such as list to cauill at such things as they mislike will take exceptions against the same as if I meant to abase the high authoritie of Iudges or make the proceedings of the highest courtes of Iustice an argument for the rude populasse to dispute of or to subiect the ordinarie trials of law to the controlment or at least canuases of priuate persons Least any should either in this behalfe except against me or enter into any such conceit of me I thought good expresly here to aduertise thee that both my words and meaning are contrary Concerning matters of common Iustice betwixt partie and partie I know that no iudgement is reuersed but by writ of errour and that in matters concerning the Crowne the verdicts of Iurors and sentences of Iudges for the Queene are finall and that the lawe doeth intend that Iudges and Iurors will proceede with that indifferencie and equitie that it will not haue their doings controlled nor examined by priuate persons Neither is it any part of my meaning to call any law in question or controll the doings of so honourable persons as in that fact sate Iudges Nay this is the thing which I doe so much reprehend in the Petitioner and his faction that most saucilie and arrogantly they take vpon them to examine the doings of Princes the actes of Parliament the sentences of Iudges the verdicts of Iuries and all recordes of Iustice Neither is there any companion among them so base but he taketh to himselfe libertie to censure and controll Princes Parliaments Iudges Lawes yea whatsoeuer and whomsoeuer Among others the author of the Petition hath behaued himselfe as presumptuouslie and proudly as the best Ignorance belike maketh him bolde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the rather for that it is ioyned with impudencie What through presumption and what through impudencie he hath taken vpon him contrary to the Iurors verdict and Iudges sentence to prooue that Vdall offended not against that statute of 23. Eliz. cap. 2. whereupon he was condemned This notorious impudencie and presumption I thought good to lay open before mens
Church and schooles are contemned I would I might not say discouraged they are made markes for licentious youthes armed with malice to shoote their boltes against the lawes are not onely contemned but most boldly oppugned yea with such confidencie that law is now accounted disorder and faction and tumult termed 2 Petition to her Maiestie reformation and libellers in euill time called reformers what resteth for them to worke but that al wise and learned men being put from gouernment the seely sots which these call elders and certaine famous authors of popular faction should be placed in the highest offices or else that lawes being not executed or Iudges crossed in executing of iustice the contumacious might liue as they list wherein they seeke nothing but that eyther the forreyne enemie may oppresse vs or els inward tumult and disorder consume vs. But I doubt not but her Maiestie and all those that beare office vnder her will take speedie order that it is not alreadie taken many do wonder some doe complayne but the clemencie of her Maiesties times and her benigne nature doth afford vs answere she will not haue any complaine that in this case any are punished but such as are obstinate heynous and notorious disturbers of the state because they were not at the first knowen for such shee would not haue them punished for such besides this the height of the stile and the loude bragges they made of their discipline made many beleeue they did it eyther of simplicitie or zeale or error few suspected the greedines of some and malice and ambition of others their notorious hypocrisie could not of long time be discouered but now their leudnes is apparent and their false visage is dismasked let them therefore beware that they abuse not the clemencie of the times or hope for continuance of vndeserued fauour The vanitie of their bragges and weakenesse of their cause is euident to all that are not eyther wilfully blinded or naturally ignorant All the demonstrations of their discipline are discifred and stand confuted they doe not so much as goe about to defend them their whole plots of false discipline lye razed they cannot say a word for them in this late petition wherein they had occasion to shewe their skill they haue not so much as answered one argument brought by vs against them The defence of Bezamade for his Aldermen most weake and simple as in a desperate cause they haue intreated Beza to say somewhat wherein we may see that their forces are spent to the last man yea so spent that they haue no hope of recouerie for what saith he good man hee telleth vs a long tale of his Geneuian deuises hut neyther doth hee answere our arguments nor bringeth scripture fathers or reason for his cause vnlesse wee beleeue him on his bare word the controuersie is at an end call you this answering this is rather the playne ouerthrowe of his cause for while hee went about to answere he hath confirmed our cause saying nothing either for himselfe or against vs but what he in his olde age dreameth where was T.C. that valiant champion of discipline all this while where was W. Tr. W. Ch. D. Sp. could not one of them speake for their cause but they must send to Geneua for a speaker it is too great and notable a confession of the weakenesse of their cause As for him or that I mistake not them that made the petition lately printed and pretended to be presented to her Maiestie on the behalfe of the Puritans they doe not deserue the name of speakers vnlesse it be among Puritans where euery one that can prate is sayde to speake For what say they for their cause their onely reason is because Caluin Beza Daneus Carpentier Golart Perot Tauergues Pollan Sneccan and a number of other authors of whose names and gestes we should neuer haue heard if these mē had not in this cause brought their names to light doe speake somewhat for their consistorie that therefore we are to like of it A goodly reason yet such a one as I thinke they will not admitte against their discipline For albeit Master R. M.B.M.G. M.A. M.H. M.D. M.W. and infinite other learned and good preachers among vs yea such as one of them is to be vaed against many of these ignorant and presumptuous disciplinarians do like of the present gouernment yet are they not therwith satisfied nay albeit all the ancient Fathers and acts of Counsels do like of the auctoritie gouernment of Bishops yet are these fellowes stil contending against it That the same was established by most learned and godly men that in Q. Maries time gaue their liues for the testimonie of the trueth they litle weigh nay they neither care for them nor their authoritie With what face then can they alledge Golart Pollan Sneccan and a number of birdes of like feather and men neither wise nor learned nor that haue ground of antiquitie or reason seeing they renounce not onely the authoritie of our men more learned then they but of our Martyrs more holy men then they yea and all the writings of the Fathers and actes of Counsels speaking of the authoritie and state of Bishops and such a gouernment as we haue In times past they were wont to tell vs of certaine lawes established by God himselfe and made vante that they would proue their discipline out of Gods word Why then are they now mute why are not these lawes and this worde brought forth why are they silent in bringing forth these mightie reasons when all is come to all must we rest on Golart Pollan Tauergues and Sneccans three or foure odde compagnions idle conceits there can nothing be deuised more absurd nor sencelesse Therefore hauing nothing to say in defence of their cause now in a desperate rage they begin to reuell not onely at Bishops but also at Lawes and Iudges and the ordinarie tryals of this Realme The drift of the petition is to shew that Iohn Vdall was wrongfully condemned they insinuate therein that the Iudges were either corrupted or blinded and that the euidence was wrested They say in plaine tearmes that Iudges haue no skill to deale with such fellowes as Iohn Vdall another kinde of man percase then he is taken to be Is hee trowe you any of Hackets or Coppingers consortes to bring Bishops into hatred they haue after their petition collected diuers Articles and by them and by certaine calumnious interrogatories haue gone about to bring them in disgrace with the multitude that if they cannot haue their desire of their celestiall consistorie they may be yet reuenged of such as they take to be the hinderers of their purposes Whose malice to encounter as before I haue answered their cauils against the ecclesiasticall gouernment of our Church to the vtter disgrace of the Consistorie so now hauing other occasions to print a discourse against Bellarmine and forreine aduersaries of our Church I haue thought good to
haue good cause to speake Bernarde 4 De consid ad Eugen. lib. 2. speaketh against the Pope for clayming soueraintie in both swordes which no bishop in England claymeth neither doth any bishop by his episcopall authoritie exercise the materiall swordes as the Pope doeth and therefore as Bernards reasons are good against the Pope so are they not to be vsed against our bishops neither was it euer Bernards meaning to condemne the prerogatiue of bishops allowing the same in so many of his epistles and writings and commending so highly the bishop of Rome notwithstanding his infinite abuses he 5 Serm. 66. in Cantic non est mirum si ordinibus ecclesie deirahunt si mandatis non obediunt bitterly inueigheth against those heretickes which for their apish imitation of the Apostles called themselues Apostolickes because they condemned prelacy and therefore calleth them Stultissimos obstinatissimos Thus the man or at least his partakers haue sought euery corner of the Fathers and yet finde nothing against the prerogatiue of bishops therfore is hee glad to flye to the practise of late churches late writers but the conclusion which he draweth from them is most weake for admit that in Geneua in France Flaunders and other churches they haue not bishops of such quality in all respects as wee haue no more haue other churches such Elders as they of Geneua haue it is sufficient that we haue such bishops as in time past they had at Ierusalem Constantinople Alexandria Antioch Carthage Seuil throughout the world before that the cornercreeping Aldermē crept out of the slime of fond mens inuention that the bishops in reformed churches of Almayne haue episcopal authoritie ouer other ministers in ordination of ministers correction of maners so that they are to be blamed that digresse from all antiquitie yea and later churches not we that agree with al former times and the Almayns for both they the Danes albeit some of them mislike the names and most of them haue taken away the liuings of bishops yet reteine still their authoritie and office in their superintendents generall superintendēts and had done better if also they had reteined the liuings rewards of learning stipends of ministers wherefore let the libeller cease to obiect vnto vs the Heluetian and Dutch and Danish churches for they differ farther from the Geneuians then from vs and the petitioner himselfe 1 Pag. 10. confesseth that they haue authoritie though not so much Of late writers I know none of name that hath condemned our bishops euen the chiefe authors of this innouatiō Caluin and Beza as may appeare by their letters which are to be shewen speake euery where honourably of them Zanchus greatly extolleth that order onely Beza as some say hath written a foolish 2 Entituled The iudgement of a learned man beyond the sea pelting discourse wherein he would proue our bishops to proceed of men as if himselfe were a bishoppe of God and Daneau in that poynt consenteth with him taking himselfe also to be a bishoppe of God and yet the Geneuians when through weakenesse of body sicknesse and age hee coulde not execute the ministerie shut this bishop of God from his liuing and forced him through want to depart out of their Citie Bullinger and Gualter and diuerse learned men of Suitzerland and Germanie haue by letters and writings allowed our bishops yea 1 Histori confess August Melancthon Camerarius Sturmius wished to God they had such in their Countreys neyther did any of these that are named by the libeller euer speake against other then papisticall bishops let the worlde then iudge what honestie or shame was in this companion that alledgeth Luther Melancthon Bucer Caluin Beza Bullinger Zanchus Erastus Gualter and Mounster against our bishops whereof some neuer spake of them others neuer spake of them but with reuerence and none against them and 2 In diuers of his letters to be shewed Beza complaineth of some that drewe his wordes vttered against popish bishops against our bishops If therefore the libeller do not bring forth some other places then these hee hath quoted there is no cause but that euery man shoulde take him for a forger of false writings and an abuser of his reader But suppose Beza or Daneau or some other of that sort shoulde write their pleasures in priuate letters or in their imperious paltrie pamphlets who would not be ashamed to oppose these two or all their headie followers to Ignatius Dionysius Chrysostome Augustine Ambrose Hierome and all antiquitie yea to most writers of late times And if these men that patronise the consistorie which cannot stand with bishops for in deede there is no agreement in gouernement betwixt the rusticall fauni and the muses betweene learned men and men of occupation betweene clownes and schollers if these I say doe not speake against bishops wee may not thinke that bishop Iewell orbishop Elmar or bishop Bollingham or others that haue written in defence of the state haue vttered any thing that soundeth to their disgrace 1 In his Apologie Bishop Iewell expressely defendeth the degree of bishops aboue priestes and good reason for it is the publike doctrine of this Church and those that goe against it make this Church to reuoke a part of their publike confession and doe more harme by their secret trechery then euer did Harding by his open enmitie neyther can there be a greater scandale or dishonour offred to religion or the state then that we should now alter the publike confession of faith made by our Church Iewell saith that the office of prince and bishop is distinct and no man denieth it for no man by the office of bishop challengeth as doth the pope soueraigntie of both swords but if any conclude because bishops ciuil officers are distinct that a bishop shal doe no ciuil office he wil conclude that hee may not looke to his house nor do the office of a subiect nor fight for his country which is a nice point of puritanisme and little better then trechery and by the same reason should ministers be excluded both from gouernement of colledges and hospitals and al offices in the vniuersities whereto our puritanes ambitiously aspire are as great canuasers as any notwithstanding their ministerie or puritanisme Neither can master Nowels words be stretched against bishops for what if Christ would not receiue riches or dominion of the deuil may not a minister receiue a benefit of a Prince or because Christ forbade them to rule as Princes may they do no offices of good subiectes but liue like traitors or like puritanes that liue in open contēpt of lawes if then the petitioner had any conscience he would not alledge Mr. Nowel against bishops whose authority he mainteineth against Dorman and whose resolution for this present gouernement is sufficiently knowen Master Bilson distinguisheth betwixt apostolicall gouernement and princely gouernment but hee
of the belfray take a rope for his paynes Hee belyeth Doctor Bridges shamefully for hee maketh him to say that a Priest may haue a moderate lordly iurisdiction ouer all the Lordes allotment where in trueth hee doeth not so much as mention Lordly iurisdiction but superioritie and that ouer the Cleargie in seuerall Congregations and not in the whole Church Therefore let him make proofe how this superioritie or maintayning of Churchliuings in their proper state can bee drawen to prooue that such as defende the state diffame the Queene or seeeke to mooue insurrection If not let him remember that both hee forgeth and runneth from his purpose like a babbling discourser wandring in a sea of wordes without compasse of style or discretion Likewise hee fableth that Doctor Bancroft writeth that her Maiestie is a petie Pope which is a gracelesse or shamelesse assertion or both for who woulde not bee ashamed but these swelling mindes that thinke they may speake what they list to ascribe that to Master Bancroft that hee reprehendeth in Martin His wordes are playne his minor 1 Pag. 68. saith he meaning Martin viz. that her Maiestie is a pety Pope may thus bee prooued If the Libeller holde on this course of lying hee will prooue many strange and wonderous matters especially among the Disciplinarians whose consistories is built on lyes But if they diffame her Maiestie that holde her to be a pety Pope as the Libeller by many great wordes and vnnecessary proofes in a matter confessed auoweth then is Martin and his partakers felonious diffamers of her Maiestie for hee holdeth that whosoeuer taketh on him the authoritie in causes ecclesiasticall which the Pope had is a petie Pope as before is sayde But that authority the whole parliament giueth to her Maiestie May it therefore please the Libeller to barke against the Parliament or els against Martin Against Master Bancroft that neyther thought it nor wrote it nor spake it but reprehendeth it in the person of Martin there is no cause for him to declayme all this Libelling notwithstanding the petitioner calleth his consortes our brethren but if his brotherhood consist in such scurrilous rayling let him seeke other brethren The brotherhood and felloship of Christians is knowen by loue The badge of puritanisme is vnnaturall and vnkinde and vnbrotherly dealing And therefore I doubt whether they be brethren or no both considering their hereticall opinions and also their vncharitable and vnchristian rayling And yet I say notwitstanding all this vnnaturall dealing that the bishops so much as they might yea too too much haue dealt remissely against such contumatious and worthlesse disturbers of the Church And that not for any thing which appeareth in this accusers wtitings wherein they see nothing but velliacry and presumption and vanitie but in respect of their owne milde natures Christian affection and desire of peace which these fellowes scorned In the ende hee concludeth that considering the doubtfulnesse of these controuersies hee trusteth her Maiestie will take some good order for the peaceable debating of them hauing I say reuelde at full both against ecclesiasticall and ciuill iurisdiction and that before so mightie a prince whose presence he ought more to haue reuerenced hauing also at such time as hee was to speake to her Maiestie talked against all decorum with by standers yea with those that were absent nowe as it were before his death he commeth home to himselfe and prayeth her Maiestie to take some good course for the peaceable ordering of these controuersies as if all her former lawes all her care all her proceedings were not to bee valued in one haire And as if rayling and accusing deserued fauour or his dispute credite or his insolencie pardon I doubt not buther Maiestie of her wisedome seeth the impudencie of the man the weakenesse of the cause the wrong done to others but especially to her selfe her gouernement and her lawes-that others may see it I haue lightly framed this answere lest the foole should enter into conceipt of his wit and others be abused by his malice not in many words for what should I stand about that wherin is nothing but pride ignorance and choller Now because by alledging their opinions he would make the world beleeue that his clients are slandered I wil shew that he 1 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 smootheth some things that are hard and concealeth many things that are worse and therefore that he and his clients are to be taken as they are The words I haue set downe and by them my answere reade with iudgement iudge with equity shewe equity to trueth Obseruations vpon certaine opinions commonly holden by the puritanes and collected by the said author of the petition with answeres to their petitions and desires ioyned with the foresaid opinions The words of the petitioner TO the end it may appeare how vniustly the seekers of reformation are slandered by the bishops Petitioner and others I haue thought good briefly truly to deliuer the opinions of such as sue for reformation which I haue gathered out of their bookes and seene in their practise and heard in conference which I had with them Neither hath the man deliuered his consorts opinions truly Answere nor was it sufficient if hee had meant to cleare them from slander to deliuer some part of their opinions vnlesse he had also deliuered their whole doctrine concerning their consistoriall discipline for what excuse may it bee for an here-tike to beleeue well in some poyntes or for leude men to doe something well But this generall doctrine of theirs neyther doth he nor durst hee deliuer it was somewhat too hoat and sawcie The soueraigntie of the aldermen in making lawes iudging and excommunicating princes dissoluing the lawes of the land taking away her Maiesties prerogatiue in pardoning offences and depriuing her of the argument she hath to shewe her clemencie in in diminishing her reuenues hee concealeth Neither doth hee reueale vnto vs those mysticall rules whereby the consistoriall faction doth ouerthrowe the parliament the apologie and fayth of this Church the Vniuersities and many priuate mens interest Likewise hath he passed ouer in goodly glosing wordes and not once mentioned other dangerous poynts That therefore which hee wanteth to the intent that wee may haue a perfect draught of the alestond of this newe brewed discipline I purpose to set down and to declare vnto you both their doctrine and their practise So that you may perceiue that they are vainely tearmed seekers and sewers for reformation And that the cause wee defende is not the cause of bishops whom we leaue to defend their doings themselues but the cause of God of religion of our countrey of the prince of learning of the whole ministerie against factious mates and heretical schismatikes and enemies of the ministery learning that in these dangerous times go about to make an vproare in their countrey and a spoyle of the rewards of learning If then that which is best in
probable nor euer did shee desire it nor can the Libeller proue it Onely she desireth that according to the lawes of God and the Realme as she and the learned iudges do interprete them and as the words doe signifie she may rule the Church This they doe denie and doe attribute this power to the factious Consistorie and therefore are factious Puritans Quaere Put-case Quest 13. whether the Archbishops of Canterbury should not rather be called Popes then Primates of all England seeing that a Cardinall gaue them the name of Primate as master Lambert saith and a Pope assigned them the name of Popes Heere I must also aske the Put-case a question or two viz. Answere why Tho. Cartwright is not called Tho. Wheelewright seeing hee would turne all round as a wheele and why W. Staw is not called Iohn Daw like reason is in both Names are giuen some by Lawe some gotten by vse And therefore seeing Archbishopsare called Primates euer since before the councell of Carthage great absurditie it is to dispute whether the Archbishop should be so called or no. And farre was master Lambert from his recknoning when he imagined the Cardinall Hugo to bee author of that name Neither can he shew that the Archbishop was euer called Pope by Vrban before the factious Puritans in their rayling vayne deuised that name for him in scorne But whatsoeuer was giuen sometime or nowe is in scorne cast on him hee renounceth the name Pope for the abuse of it and is farre from clayming the Papall authoritie If hee had the authoritie eyther of the Pope or of a meane Bishop yet durst not euery Sycophant play with his name and style neyther would such base fellowes so shamefully abuse him Hee ruleth by lawes he deriueth his authoritie from her Maiestie he can doe no man wrong he is vtter enemie to all papall authoritie Contrariwise the Lordes of the consistorie take on them like Popes to iudge in Christes seate to be Christes vicars to controll and excommunicate Princes to dissolue States to giue lawe to Kings to throwe to hell and no man may once speake against them where they rule without danger of their libertie and life These therefore are popes in deede and seeing they are so why may they not be called also Popes seeing they are dubbed with this name by diuers Quaere Put-case Quest 14. if Wickleffe Luther Caluin c. were nowe aliue and should speake against the Lordship of Bishops as they doe in their writings to which prison the Bishops would send them and whether doe bookes seene and allowed conteine matters of Felonie and diffamatorie to the Queene Quaere also Answere if the skie should fall where would bee best catching of woodcockes both questions are alike For as the skie wil not fal in haste so would not these learned men mentioned in this question euer open their mouthes against godly men or the state degree of bishops That is onely proper to the foulemouthed puritanes They speake against the tyranny and vanities of popish bishops with whome our puritanes doe not much meddle but rather treacherously strike good souldiers that fight against thē Our puritanes declaime against holy bishops of times past and preachers of the holy Gospel such as those learned men neuer condemned Let the libeller if he can bring forth one place which is not meant of papisticall bishops And therefore let them goe to the Fleete themselues as mutinous companions the fellowshippe of those learned men they cannot haue whose bookes although they bee allowed for diuerse good things found in them yet can it be no warrant for the platformers high stiled declamations nor any iustification for that which is euill For there can bee nothing more vnlike then bishop Latimers booke and Cartwrightes replies defacing the bishops Neyther are the wordes seene and allowed sufficient to warrant seditious writings For sometimes printers are too bold sometime the authors sometime the correctors and it cannot bee denyed but in Wickleffes bookes there bee faultes Chaucer and Reynold the Foxe are allowed to bee printed and many bookes moe for the good they haue not that any part of the leudnesse of them is allowed And therefore let the Putcase leaue pleading of seene and allowed seeing wee can neyther see his consortes much nor allowe them nor approoue whatsoeuer by their fauourers is printed though it be with seene and allowed Quaere why papists should finde more fauour Putcase Quaest 15. them the seekers of reformation and why they should not bee condemned as felons for their abominable doctrine If all should be punished Answere that maintaine abominable doctrine it would go very hard with the puritanes whose haeretical and leud opinions are very many and very abominable The particulers I haue in part touched before and shall if neede be lay them downe more amplie elsewhere Let not therfore this Putcase repine at her Maiesties clemencie wherin her special honor consisteth seeing they enioy it liue by it themselues let them not enuie it to others That papistes are more fauoured then puritanes is a bold and impudent assertion for it is wel knowen that diuers of them haue bene executed some as traytors some as felons others haue payde for it as recusants whereas none of this faction haue bene punished in like degree saue Hacket albe it they denie her Maiesties supremacie many of them refuse to come to church If there bee any that haue fauoured papists let them susteyne the shame of it for the ecclesiasticall state hath bene most diligent to suppresse them whereas contrariwise by entreatie fauour meanes made by puritanes by some one that hath his finger in this petition many haue bene dismissed First therefore I answere that it is vntrue that papists find fauour more then puritanes Secondly that the fauour which is procured for them proceeded specially from puritanes and their fauourers Thirdly that neither of them both deserueth fauour Fourthly that seeing her Maiesties pleasure is to shew them fauour for their liues they are not to repine at it nor malepertly to traduce her doings Lastly that the puritanes in termes do more maliciously oppugne her Maiesties proceedings ecclesiastical lawes then the most trecherous papists that are fled for the same out of the land And that therefore they are to quiet themselues and not to stirre in this their bad cause for the more it is opened the worse it sauoureth Quaere Putcase Quaest 16. if the bishops proceedings against men per ordinem inquisitionis doe not resemble the papall order in the time of crueltie Nothing is lesse like Answere for the Iudges now proceede by authority of her Maiestie and according to her lawes and yet are abused by euery base felow In times past they proceeded by other authoritie and by orders from the Popes then no man durst abuse thē These punish according to the Queenes lawes those according to their
them worthy of hate for that hauing taught that a bishop priest is all one by Gods word they now teach that all that holde so be hereticks But he doth vs wrong for charging vs to say that a bishop priest is all one by Gods word the word Episcopus presbyter in scriptures is commonly vsed for one but we speake english call those that rule bishops and others priests which distinction we find plainly in scriptures and therefore holde the teachers of equality to be Aerians confounders of gouernment to be iustly condemned not only by Epiphanius but also by Augustine yea by the consent of all the fathers that distinguish priests into 2 sorts giuing the name of bishop to those that rule and priest to the second that are ruled And therefore most sencelesse is their reason that because they haue all one name will conclude of it aequalitie of all ministers For magistrates teachers subiectes haue all one name and yet are diuided into diuers degrees In vaine therfore doth the libeller bring proofes that the words presbyter episcopus are commonly taken for one for that notwithstāding there may be difference of degrees howsoeuer they wil answere this obiection yet is it apparant that the same ouerthroweth as I said their consistorial aldermen Away thē with the new church aldermen those heretikes that mainteine them for albeit Epiphanius erred in accompting them heretikes that prayed not for the dead yet is the same no reason to shew he erred in this which not only Augustine mainteineth but all the Fathers also not only they but the foure general counsels which this land approueth so that by the lawes of Englād they are heretiks that hold the equality of ministers what shameles dealing thē was this for the libeller to alledge the Syriake interpreter or Chrysostome or Ambrose or Theodoret whē no one speaketh for equality euery one defendeth degrees in the ministers of the word but the word cashisha saith he comprehēdeth both bishop priest what thē so doth a liuing creature comprise men beasts yet are not both equal in dignity neither doth it help him that the order of priesthood cōpriseth both bishops priests for it doth not take away the dignity of some aboue others what needed then so many names of Wicleffe Marsilius of Padua Luther Bullinger Iewel Melancthon others that speake as we do or Caluin his fellowes that speaketh against al antiquity or what needed this compagnion to muster so many names either of protestant churches seeing they were not of Caluins opiniō or of papists seing we do not follow Bellarmin Stapleton or papists but antiquity that speaketh as we doe Neither doth it follow Chrysost Hierom Augustin in 4. ad Ephes that the ecclesiasticall state is to be maliced for teaching that Pastor and Doctor are all one for so hath all antiquity taught and their interpretation by all antiquitie is confirmed Neither is it material what Caluin Beza Daneau Bertrand de loques Villiers and other say to the contrarie seing they talke contrary to antiquity reason and all practise Finally their owne practise and diuers reasons stand against Doctors which neither the libeller nor his mates make any haste to answere The exposition of the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Math. 20.25 is most absurdly forced by these compagnions to make against superior degrees in the ministery for that the apostles notwitstanding Christs prohibition 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 were superiour to other degrees of ministers And very absurd it were if Christ should suffer tyrants to oppresse the people and forbid lawfull authoritie to the ministers by which also would fall the authoritie of the consistorie and ministers liue without controlment And therefore as long as these fellowes interprete against all scripture antiquitie and reason yea and themselues too it skilleth not what they say against superiour degrees Against which Luther Zuinglius Melancthon Caluin Bullinger and the rest are most peruersely alledged They say and so likewise Iewell Sadeel Bridges Bilson Whitakers and others say that bishops as bishops may not take vpon them the rule of kingdomes nor rule with force like Princes But who is so simple as to cōclude hereof that one minister may not rule another as these fellowes doe But suppose some of our learned men should interpret 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 otherwise then Caluin hath done must all the clergie suffer for one mans not yeeelding to Caluins fancie Or because some denie that soueraigne princes may be excommunicate defending therein the soueraigntie of princes against the rebellious Papists and Puritans must therefore the Ecclesiasticall state bee dissolued nothing is more absurde for herein as the aduersaries deserue punishment so our men deserue speciall commendation in confuting the seditious doctrine of factious persons They also consent flatly with the Papists in denying the princes supremacy in making lawes iudging of ecclesiastical matters or appointing others to iudge them diuers other points neither can the libeller seuer their opinions from thē for first it is false that he saith that the Papists exempt their clergy in ciuill causes from the princes iurisdiction or that the consistorials do giue authoritie to the prince to deale with their consistories pastors in ecclesiasticall causes so long as they iudge they haue done well themselues for they take the dealing therein from the prince and giue power of deposition to their eldership And as the consistorials say that the prince may enforce their cōsistories making wicked decrees to make better which taking the iudgement of those matters from princes I see not how they can well do so the papists wil haue the prince not only to reforme ministers but the pope himselfe also Si Papa sit incorrigibilis Imperator potest procedere contra ipsum saith 1 Heruaeus de potest papae c. 13. Heruey papa potest accusaricoram Imperatore saith 2 Zabarel lib. de schism concil Zabarel The papists confesse that princes may make lawes with the aduise of the pope as these confesse he may with the aduise of the consistory They confesse that the prince may take order where the Pope is incorrigible as these say where their pastors are wicked and vngodly therfore the libeller doth nothing but fable where he would seuer the cōsistorials from papists but what should we looke for other at his hands seeing he is not ashamed to say that the consistorials wil subscribe to the apology of the church of England and the articles of religion authorised and published by parliament which deny the degrees of the ministery and oppugne them which are confirmed both by the apology and by articles of religion professed in this church Lastly they take exception against vs for that we teach that the best 1 All the ancient Fathers and of late writers Melancthon Luther and of others the best writers are against the eldership as if it were not proued by
such authors argumēts as these fellowes as yet delay to answere As for Daneau and certaine pety compagnions defenders thereof their authority is of no weight speaking against such antiquitie and consent and reason The Libeller would also haue the ecclesiasticall state made odious for their misgouernment a very malitious and insufficient course for suppose that 3 or 4 should doe against lawe is it reason that law should be taken away or that many should suffer for a few mens faults how much more vnreasonable is it that the same should bee oppressed for supposed misgouernment That articles are ministred to parties conuented in law and subscription required to lawes is most consonant to lawes neither is any thing in the lawes of England or the statute 25. Henr. 8.19 there to the contrary The Libeller seemeth not to vnderstand himselfe nor others when hee talketh of bishops deuising articles and subscriptions and publishing them in their owne names for there can not be deuised a more absurde kinde of speach Subscriptions are required of others and not published and articles are obiected as priuate meanes to bolt out trueth not as lawes to be practised A course vsuall in all courts of chancery eschecker starrechamber but what reason had this fellowe to obiect to bishops that which they doe not when Th. Cartw. and his 2 At Warwicke Cambridge London c. the actes thereof are euidence sufficient fellowes contrary to the statutes and lawes of the Realme assembled in secrete manner made lawes and subscribed them and published them among themselues and yet are not punished for it They say that bishops appoynting speciall prayers vpon occasion of the inuasion of the Spaniards and other speciall causes doe contrary to that which they require in others but they mistake for those offend not that in euery point of the Communion booke obserue not strict order which the booke in some case aloweth but such malitious felowes as of malitiousnes refuse it and contemptuously oppugne it Neither is the vse of speciall prayers vpon occasion contrary to the vse of the booke of common prayer subscribed vnto with exclusion of all other orders of common prayers for both may stand together Neither did Byshops any thing in this behalfe without her Maiesties speciall commandement But these fellowes are of those that allow not her Maiesties godly orders nor any thing done by Gouernors nor any prayers but fond loose vaine and absurd babbling oraisons of Puritans and seeme to be sory that any should pray against the Spaniards They thinke also and the Libeller affirmeth that it is as lawfull for contentious persons to refuse the surples as for Byshops not to vse pastorall staues But it is most absurde so to say the vse of the surples being consirmed by law the vse of the pastorall staues not being required by lawe or custome But were pastorall staues enioyned by lawe is this a good reason because Bishops offend that euery lawlesse compagnion should passe without controlment That Cawdry was punished by order of lawe is apparant for that the statute doeth authorize the high Commissioners to proceede according to their Commission If any fault were therein cōmitted it was that he was vsed with so 1 His cause was almost two yeeres in handling his conformitie continually being exspected much lenitie Neuer was any more obstinate nor could any man haue more fauor especially without desert for neither had he learning nor other good qualitie nor was any more factious That felonies were examined before the high Commissioners Ec-Ecclesiasticall is a vaine cauill neither doeth it follow because vpon examinations of matters fellonious libels are found out that they proceede to the cognition and determining of felonies Neither do the Ecclesiastical Iudges contray to law either in citations or ministring othes in causes ex officio or punishing lewde factious perturbers of the state If this felow doe maintaine the contrary let him leaue his idle quotations and set downe the wordes of law enforce them by argument to his purpose Otherwise all men may see he goeth about rather to calumniate good men then to iustifie any accusation against his aduersaries If he prooue nothing let him be ashamed to cal his factious compagnions seekers of reformation their libels and friuolous pamphlets bookes of reformation and cease to impugne her Maiesties lawes sentence of Iudges against Iohn Vdall whose fact no man can defend but such as maintaine sedition faction nor praise but such as are enamored of senceles vnlearned hypocrites let him cease to charge the Bishops with seeking his life for they are not his parties nay next to her Maiestie he is to thanke some Bishops for his life for if they had bin as he saith nay if some had not entreated for him percase he had bin hanged all this controuersie taken vp and ended If he cease not percase the world will thinke that Vdall deserued rather more seueritie then is now shewed to him and that the libellers bolde demeanour may procure him to haue iustice for his foolish prating rather then fauour for any wittie reasoning Hitherto all the Libellers dispute is without sequele for admit some one or more shoulde teache falsely or doe against lawe yet is it no reason that euery base compagnion should with open mouth rayle against her Maiesties gouernement and Lawes and call them Antichristian and speake against the whole cleargie yea against Iudges and all that fauour the present gouernment Let those that haue taught falsely be refuted and those that haue done leudly bee punished That the state should be dissolued for the misgouernment of particulars no reason will admit That the platformers offer their liues to prooue their discipline which the libeller alledgeth to excuse thē is a sencelesse reason for no traytors nor felōs deale in any cause that they vndertake but they offer and venture their liues for it yea and Iacke Strawe Hacket offred their liues to prooue their reformation whereas these fellowes contrariwise are very loath to loose liues lands or goods for their discipline and loose nothing but with much grumbling and repining and come farre behinde the Iesuites and Papists in that poynt And so simple is their proofe that if they bee wise they will not venture any thing vpon it for the demonstrations of discipline stande confuted without replye and all their presbyteriall imaginations rest beaten without answere neyther is any argument in all T. C. his great confused Chaos of replyes left vntouched His multiplicitie of wordes wee leaue to factious Puritans that speake ordinarily without sence or matter to play withall To excuse his fellowes silence the Libeller pretendeth want of libertie Printers which cannot iustly be alledged for how can they want printers hauing Waldgraue in Scotland and others at Geneua Middleburg Leyden at commaundement beside their priuate presses Or how can they pretend want of liberty seeing none haue bene long imprisoned and many