to be sente you an other answeare whiche vpon beâ—…ter aduise I thought good to staye I ment in both one thinge but my first was somdeale sower and woulde haue bene as bitter as a medicine or in tyme of Lent penaunce I striue with nature the les to offende you and so I trust you see cause to forgiue me if in any parte of my writing I seeme ouer â—…ager 24. Martij Henricus Cole ⧠The answere of Jo. Bisshop of Sarum vnto D. Coles second letter IN your second letters I finde manye wordes to litle purpose It had bene better for you to haue alleaged one sufficient authority wherby I mighte haue learned that I loked for For in my Sermon at Powles and els where I required you to bring forthe on your parte eyther sum Scripture or sum olde Doctour or sum auncient Councell or els sum alowed example of the Primatiue Church For these are good groundes to buylde vpon And I woulde haue merueiled y â— you brought nothing al this while soning y t I knew ye had nothyng to being But nowe for asmutche as you seâ—…e shiftes and will not cum to answere I count him vnwise that knoweth not your meaning Ye aske why ye shoulde be called obstinate Doubtles I haue a better opinion of you and trust ye be â—…ot so But if a man withstand an open trueth hauing nothinge wherwith to â—…efende him selfe I remit him to your owne iudgement whether he may be called obstinate or no You put me in remembraunce of mine office that for asmutch as I am a Bishoppe I shoulde be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is ready to yelde accoÌ„pte of suche thinges as I teach I thanke God so I doo and haue done hitherto to my power bothe priuately and openly But if this be my dewtie required at my handes what priueledge haue you that you only may not alow one poore sentence to the confirmation of your learning â—…ou wold haue men thinke I flie answearinge bycause I am a Bishop This in logique is called Paralogismus A noÌ„ causa vt causa I alleaged the place audience where I spake not only mine office for that I thought it might appeare sum want of discretion to call y e doctrine into questioÌ„ which I knew was grounded vpoÌ„ god des worde and authorised and set forth by the â—…uenes Maiestye by the assent of the whole Realme But as touching my callyng I am not only readie to answeare any man in any thing that I professe but also vpon sufficient allegation as I haue promised very well content to yelde vnto you But I beseche you what reason of your faith in these maters gaue you sâ—…time when ye were inplace Scriptures doctours councelles ye had none as it now appeareth by your silence Therfore y e ground of your petswasion must then needes be Nos habemus legeÌ„ secunduÌ„ legeÌ„ c. You knowe what foloweth for as truely as god is god if ye wold haue vouchsaued to folow either y â— scriptures or y â— auncieÌ„t doctours Councels ye wolde neuer haue restored againe the Supremacye of Rome after it was once abolisshed or the priuate Masse or the Communion vnder one kinde â–ª 〈◊〉 â–ª It geueth you that I shoulde rest vpon the negatiue and 〈◊〉 put you to your proufes Wherin notwithstanding ye alleage against me the custome of the Schooles yet ye know Christ vsed the same kinde of reasoning in his schoole As wheÌ„ he said to the Pharisees Hoc Abraham non fecit thys thyng Abraham neuer did And agayne when he answeared them in the â—…ase of matrimonie A pâ—…incipio non fuit sic it was not so from the beginning he stode only vpon the negatiue â—…herein if the Pharisies had ben able to 〈◊〉 but one affirâ—…atiue eyther that Abraham had donne so or that the lawe of diuorse had bene so from the beginninge Christ w t hys negatâ—…ue might sone haue ben confounded Euen so when the Bishoppe of ConstaÌ„tinople had taken vpon hiâ—… to be â—…alled the vniveâ—…sal bishop of the whole Churche which title after warde the Bishop of Rome began to 〈◊〉 to himself for the 〈◊〉 of the same had 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 disâ—…quieted and shaken the 〈◊〉 world but wheÌ„ the Bishop of Constantinople first begaÌ„ to vse this stile Gregorye being then the Bishop of Rome confounded hym only with the negatiue Nemo said he decessorum meorum hoâ—… profano vocabulo vti voluit none of my predecessours woulde euer vse this 〈◊〉 and lewâ—… name Lib. 4. Epist. 80. And â—…gain Epist. 92. Sancti ante legem Sancti in lege SaÌ„cti sub gratia omnes perficientes Corpus Domini in meÌ„bris sunt constituti At nemo se vniuersalem dici voluit The holye men before the law the holie meÌ„ vnder the lawe the holie men vnder the grace of the Gospel altogether making vp one bodie of the Lord are placed amoÌ„gest his members but none of them wold euer suffer hym self to be called vniuersall I haue chosen especially these exaÌ„ples bicause they seeme to serue me to double purpose Thus Gregorye reasoned theÌ„ as we do now only vpon the negatiue And if theÌ„ the Bishop of Constantinople had ben able to proue but one affirmatiue y â— any Bishop of Rome afore time had vsed y t stile or that euer any man other before the Law or vnder the lawe or vnder y â— Gospel had suffred him self to be called vniuersall Bishop then had Gregorie ben confounded But as touching the custome of the Scholes I trust ye haue not yet forgotteÌ„ that Aristotle geueth order to y â— opponeÌ„t in many cases to require an instaÌ„t as I do now at your hand And what is y â— els but in the deniall to defende the negatiue to driâ—…e the aduersarie to auouch the affirmatiue But y â— wil ye not do ye know why although ye dissemble it But sooner ye require to see our groundes And what better grouÌ„d can we haue on our side theÌ„ y t D. Cole the chiefest maÌ„ on y â— other side caÌ„ find no grounde to stande against vs He that will make any innoua tioÌ„ saye you must giue a reason of his doinges O maister Doctour this reason fighteth 〈◊〉 against your selfe For you haue 〈◊〉 and put awaye the most parte of the order of the primatiue church and yet ye neuer gaue anye good reason of your doinges You saye you are in possession No ye were sumtimes you are not now And when you were ye had no right title nor good euidence no more theÌ„ they that sumtime sate in Moses chayre or they that sayd Nos sumus filii AbrahaÌ„ we are the children of Abraham and thereby claymed theyr possession Therfore ye were possessores malae fidei and for that cause ye are now iustly remoued Now if ye thinke ye haue wroÌ„g shewe your euidence out of y â— doetours the Councelles or Scriptures that ye may haue your right and reentre I
y â— matter you did the like your self For in Quene Maries time you subscribeâ—… to the Articles sum of theÌ„ we are entred to talk in to your no lesse blame theÌ„ mine There be in the Town that both saw you subscribe and can bring forth your hand To this and som parte of the â—…te article you shal be answered in the end of this writing as I before said What nedeth so 〈◊〉 of one thing this serâ—…th you to seâ—… to â—…ay 〈◊〉 much â–ª I graunt Such fond excuses meÌ„ lay how trew let other iudg You forget your self I say not thus pardie loke berter in the place Then begin if you think y â— time will serue or put it ouer till another time All these be but wordes often repeated and answered alredy â—…ede the place again I say not so theÌ„ you shall se lesse cause to complain You say the councel at CoÌ„stance opely promoued against Christ hym self wherin I praye you bicause the fathers there 〈◊〉 who sayth it is of necessitie to receaue vnder both kinds that the approued custome of the Church is Sacriledg to be taken for an Heretik and 〈◊〉 no heretik but in a wrong opinion Then bilike you can bring in sum Texte where Christ commauÌ„ded it should not be receiued but vnder both kinds which you can neuer do So is your reporte of this councel very â—…aunderous still â—…eed 4. Canonem Concilij Constantiensis You ground your prouf vpon Pighius â—…rour For Pighius â—…oldeth the CouÌ„cell of Ephesus was generall which the couÌ„cell of Calcedon denieth So y â— I merueil much herein of you that you alledg that for a Councel which hath no place in y â— Boke of Councelles Wherin doth Pighius proue y â— CouÌ„celles of Constance and Basill to haue erred Mary bicause they decried y â— generall Councell to be aboue the Pope If ye take these two CouÌ„celles to haue erred in this pointe you are a greater Papist then I am for I holde herin rather w t Gerson I trow this be one place that you wrote not your self Yet I â—…keÌ„ no errour proued in any geuerall CouÌ„cell by that you haue said To this I haue answered alredy to you I haue answered to this alredy what order of disputation dischargeth you of prouf yet remember I came not to dispute but to be taught Yf you refuse to enstruct me onleâ—… I bring sum prouf of my parte you bid me to my cost You bid me to a feaste â–ª where while I shoulde take on me to proue your doctrin naught I were like â—…orfeit my Recognisaunce whiche you guilfully allure me vnto God wot I passe litle in these matters what the poore selie soules diem of my doinges Wherin you haue no cause to complain sith they be ediâ—…etd toward you Wise men I doubt not see what iust cause I haue to doo as I do You wold beare folke in hand that they that agree not in doctrine wyth you are not the Quenes frendeâ—… which you gather by your own side in Quene Maries raigne but I neuer brake amitie with any man for discent in religion I keape still mine olde frendes be theyâ—… Religion good or bad As though mine affectioÌ„ only caused me to disceÌ„t from you in religioÌ„ Which argument maye serue you happely in Rhetorik but no wher els I wene This place is aboue answered NOw forasmuch as you make this a great foundation against vs that we varie from y â— Primitiue Church and therby make y â— simple soules wene that we were in the wronge side here I pray you shew your opinion wether we are bounde to doo all thinges whyche we finde by sufficient authority were in vre in y â— Primitiue Church And bicause you shall not be herein squemish I shall here begin to shew you mine I am of the opinion that the CouÌ„cell of ConstaÌ„ce was in this matter I think it an errour I am bound to do as y â— Primitiue Church did where the Churche customably vsed the contrarie I â—…eken an â—…raÌ„ple no bond I deny not but those examples were to be folowed not to be broken at euery mans will and pleasure vntil by commeÌ„ assent othâ—…r order were takeÌ„ But if you seke olde writers and finde me that the Churche these sire huÌ„dred yeres obserued noâ—… many thigs which were practised and accompted for good holesunâ—… and holy in the Primitiue Church and therby dieme vs in errour this were a wrong iudgmeÌ„t For the church of Christ hath his childhode his manhod and his hoorheares and as that that is miet for aman in one age is vnmiet in another So were many thigs miet requisite necessarie in the primitiue church which in our daies were like to do more harâ—… then good This is no new deuised phantasie but vttered xi C. yeres agoo by Saint Ambrose without reproche I shewed you red you the place at â—…estminster as you may remember and it were to long to make rehersall of his wordes here We might by taking the contrarie opinion herein be lede to think we ought to receiue the SacrameÌ„t euermore after Supper not fasting But S. Augustin saith that Christ left this to his church to take order how and in what sort his Sacramets should be receiued and vsed wherein he saith it is a meruelous insolent kind of madnes to misâ—…ike y â— which is receiued in the Church where y t custoÌ„ is not against any commaundement in the Scripture S. Peter â—…aused as Damâ—… sus saith a commaundement to be giueÌ„ that no woman should cum bare faced to the Church S. Clement toke order that the Clergie should haue all thinges in common and to line together as in the late refourmed order of sainct Benâ—…tes Monkes dothe most godly appear And not many yeres since the saide order in all Cathedrall churches was obserued Yet I wene it wer an errour to hold of necessitie it should be so still or to say y t Church were in errour bicause it hath suffred a contrary custome to criep in Then if y â— custom of y t church may break y â— was in the Primitiue church coÌ„maunded it is lesse offence to leaue vndone y â— was at y t beginning practised no coÌ„maundement geuen for other to folow the same Thus much I thought to put you in remembrance of for such matters as you thouch in the 17. 42. 43. noÌ„bers 8. Aprilis Henricus Cole ⧠A Letter sent from the Bishoppe of Sarum to doctour Cole wherin he requireth of him a true and a full Copie of the former answer I Understand by the reporte of diâ—…ers that ap pearinge of late before y â— Quenes Maiesties visitours at Lambeth and beyng there demaunded of a Letter that was then abroade in your name as aunswere vnto me whether ye woulde acknowledge thesame as your owne or no and so much the more for that ye had vsed the matter vnder couert and sent your copies abrod into al
disputare The Pope hath a right y t no man maye withstand of wiche ryght no man may dispute Haue ye forgotten that is written in your decretales De translatione episcopi in the glose Papa naturam rerum immutat substantiaâ—… vnius rei applicando alteri Et de nullo potest facere aliquid Et sentetiam quae nulla est facit aliquam Quia in his quae vult ei est pro ratione voluntas Nec est qui illi 〈◊〉 cur ita facis That is he changeth the nature of thyngs applying the substantiall partes of one thing to another And of nothinge he is able to make sumwhat And that y t is no sentence he maketh a good sencence For in any thinge that he willeth his wil standeth in steade of reason And there is no man that may say vnto him why doest thou thus Haue ye forgotten the wordes of your owne councels Papa non potest iudicari the Pope can not be iudged And the same fortefied wyth a good reason oute of the wordes of the Prophet Esay who spake in the parson of God Quia scriptum est Nunquid gloriabitur securis aduersus eum qui secat cum 〈◊〉 shall the axe boaste himselfe ageinst hym that heweth wyth it Or haue ye forgotten that Nostiensis your owne doctoure wryteth Papa est omnia super omnia The Pope is al and aboue al whych words S. Paule speaketh only of Christ. So reuerently the doctoures of your syde vse gods holy Scriptures Yet I passe by a great a nuÌ„ber of the lyke sentences to the same purpose Thus ye se if ye tak part with GersoÌ„ a great many of your own frends wil fall out with you and ye wil be in hasard to be called an heretike Ye se by this that the councell of Constance Basil beinge both generall as Pighius saith decred a falshead and were in errour as ye your selfe must nedes confesse as well as Pighius if ye wil staÌ„d to your own doctryne And therfore Cardinalis Caietanus one of your own syde saith y t both these councelles were afterward iustly abrogate I thynke for that they were thought to haue decreed amisse And so both Gerson and ye by the iudgement of all your brethren remain still in errour And when ye haue sought out y â— bottome of your learning I beleue it wylbe harde for you to find any good sufficieÌ„t cause why a generall councell may not aswel be deceiued as a particuler For Christes promises Ecce ego vobiscuÌ„ sum and vbicunque duo aut tres conuenerint in nomine meo ibi sum ego in medio illorum are made aswell to y â— particular councel as to the generall Howbeit whether the councell may erre or no ye know it avayleth you but little to stand greatly to the defence of councels in these points onlesse ye had sum couÌ„cell to make for you But lyke as the Romaines in old tymes worshipped theyr god Uulcanus wyth al godly honour and yet woulde neuer vouchsaue to geue him a chappel within their towne euen so ye as it appeareth can content your selfe to honoure the councels and to haue them euer in mouth yet wyll ye not vouchesafe to take theÌ„ neare to you and to be ordered by them And therefore these wordes of yours are onely of office and of course that the very countenaumce ye geue the matter might make your reader beleue that ye haue all the councels of yoursyde wâ—… haue none Bnt alas what reuerence or regarde haue ye to the councels The councell of Nice appointed iii. Patriarches to rule the hole churche eche of them wythin hys precinctes of lyke authority Ye haue broken this councell geueÌ„ al y â— who le authority to one alon The councell holden at Eliberis decreed that ther shold be no kind of Image of any thing y â— is worshiped painted in the churche Ye haue broken this councell â–ª and filled your churches ful of Images The councell of Antioch decreed that such as came into the church and heard the Scriptures read and abstained from the communion should be excommunicate froÌ„ the church Ye haue broken thys councel and nether do ye read the Scriptures in such sorte as y â— people maye perceyue them nor once eâ—…horte them to the communion The councell of Charthage commaunded there should nothynge be rede in the church but only the Scriptures of God 〈◊〉 haue broken this councel and red such Legendes and fables vnto the people as ye your self know were ma nifest and open lyes The councell of Rome vnder Pope Nicolas commaundeth that no man 〈◊〉 present at y â— masse of a pryest whoÌ„ he knoweth vndoubtedly to kepe a concubine and that vnder y t â—…ayne of 〈◊〉 yet he whom ye would se fayn haue to be taken for the head of your churche not onely hath broken this councell but also for a certein ordenary tribute to be yerely paied geueth hys Priestes free licence and dispensacions vnder hys great seal â—…ly to kepe concubines without coÌ„trolment And what nede we 〈◊〉 examples 〈◊〉 make the couÌ„celles wey as ye wil wheÌ„ ye list as heauy as golde again when ye list as light as fethers Pope Julius the second called a councell at Rome onely to ouerthrow the counceil of Pisa. And the whole order of S. Dominiks freers cried out shame vpon the councel of Basil for that the Bishops there had taken part with the Scotistes against the Chomistes touchinge originall syn in our Lady The councell of Paris was scott at and iested out of all partes and vntill this daye kept of no parte For our Doctors of England sayd it had no power to sayle ouer the See â–ª Egidius of Rom saith it was to heauy to clim ouer the Alpes Thus muche for that ye seme to stand so 〈◊〉 to the defence of councels hauing in these points not one couÌ„cel to al ledge for your self Sarum YE presse me sore that if I write you not a boke of my proufes it wil be thought I do it conscientia imbecillitatis By lyke ye haue forgotten why ye withall your companye not long sence refused to enter into disputacion w t vs at Westminster Doubtles the greatest part thought it was as it was in dede conscientia imbecillitatis And what thinke ye is there now thought in you y â— being so often required yet can not be won to bryng so much as one pore sentence in your own defence I haue before alledged a few reasons of my part which by order of disputacion I was not bounde to do Now let the worlde iudge whether of vs both flyeth conference â—… Colo. I haue answered to thiâ—… already What order of 〈◊〉 dischargeth you of proufe Yet remember I came not to dispute but to be taught The Reply Sarum YE haue answered me by saying nothing whiche I thinke ye would not haue done if ye had any thynge els to answere from proufe in thys matter I am
that agree not in doctryne with you â–ª are not the Quenâ—…s frendes whyche ye gather by pour owne syde in Quene Maries râ—…ygne But I neuer brake aâ—…ity with any man for dissent 〈◊〉 râ—…ligion I â—…epe still my olde frendes be theyr religion good or bad The reply Sarum TO the first part therof I wyll not saye so muche as â–ª I were able God sone confounde al them that be or shal be otherwise If ye loue your frendes notwithstandinâ—…e theyr religion ye are more â—…itable then sume of your brethren For ye remember how vnfreÌ„dly sume of you haue vsed their frends onely for dissent in religioÌ„ onlesse perhaps ye will say ye imprisoned thâ—…m and burnte them euen for very loue ¶ Sarum YE suppressed ye saye your first letters for that they were to sowâ—… That had bene all one to me for sowre wordes are not inought to quailâ—… the trueth Howbeit to my knowledge I gauâ—… you no ill wordes to encrease that humour But if ye striue stil agaist nature as ye say ye haue done nowe conquere the reast of your affections to I doubt not but we shall sone agree ¶ Cole AS though mynâ—… affection only caused me to dissent from you in religion Whiche argument may 〈◊〉 you well in Rhâ—…torike but no where els I wene The reply Sarum WHen ye shal bring me any such authority as I haue required of you wherfore ye should dissent from vs in these pointes then wil I graunt ye dissent not only for affection If ye be able to bring norhing I truste ye will pardon me to saye as I saye This argument ye saye woulde serue me in rethorike no where els Thus ye wryt to make youre reader belâ—…e as ye haue reported in places that the grounde of my Sermons is rhethorike and not diuinitye Wherein ye were sumwhat to blame for your so light cre dit For if ye had heard me youre selfe as ye neuer did I thynke ye might haue hard sumwhat els theÌ„ rhetorike But it appeareth ye huÌ„t very narowly for faultes y t accoÌ„pt learning for a fault If I wer skil full in rhetorike as ye woulde haue me appeare onelye to discredite me with the people yet can I not vnderstande wherefore that thing shoulde be so faultye in me that was sumtymes commendable in S. Augustin in saint Chrisostome in saint Hierom in Arnobius in Lactantius in Cypryane in Tertullian and in many other olde godly fathers for all these as ye know were great rhetoriciaÌ„s But as in the boke of the kinges the Assyrians when they were ouerthrowen by the Iewes cried out Dii moÌ„tium sunt dii illorum the gods of the hils be theyr gods as though Siluanus or Pan or Faunus had conquered them and not the true lyuing God of Israell Euen so ye at this tyme after ye see your selfe scattered and put to flight cry out it is rhetorik and eloquence that hath ouerthrowen you and not the force of the gospel of Iesus Christ Likwise was Porphirius woÌ„t to say that S. Paule perswaded so farre and won so many to the faith of Christ not for that he had any trueth of his side but only for that with his eloquence and other subtility he was able to abuse the simplicity of the people But alas smal rhetorike wold suffice to shew how little ye haue of your syde to alledg for your self ¶ Sarum HEre I leue putting you eâ—…tsones in remeÌ„brauÌ„ce y t being so oft so opeÌ„â—… desired to shew forth one Scripture or one allowed example of the Primatiue church or one olde doctour or one auncient councel in the matters before named yet hetherto ye haue kept back and brought nothing And that if ye stande so still it maye well be thought ye do it conscientia imbecillitatis For that ther was nothing to be brought ¶ Cole This place is aboue answered The Reply Sarum Douâ—…tles by sayiÌ„g nothing as all the reast ¶ Cole NO we forasinuche as ye make this a great foundation against vs that we varye from the Primitiue church and therfore Make simple soules wene that we were in the wronge syde here I praye you shewÌ„e me youre opinion whether we are bounde to do all thinges whyche we fâ—…nde by sufficient authority were in 〈◊〉 in the Primitiue Church And because ye shall not be herein squemiâ—… I shall here my selfe begin to shew you mine I 〈◊〉 of the pinion that the councell of Constance was in this matter I thinke it an errour I am bouÌ„d to do as the Primitiue Church did Where the 〈◊〉 customaâ—… vseth the â—…ontrary I 〈◊〉 an example and no bonde I dâ—…ny not but these examples were to be folowed and not to ye broken at euery mans wyll and pleasure vntill by coâ—…en assent other order were â—…aken But if ye seke olde wryters and find me that the church this sixe hundred yeares obâ—…rued 〈◊〉 many thinges which were praciysed and accoÌ„yâ—… for good holesome and holy in the Primitiue church and therebâ—… 〈◊〉 vs in error this were a wrong 〈◊〉 For the church of Christ hath his childhod his manhod his hoarheares and as to one man that is mete to 〈◊〉 in one age is not mete for him in another So where manye thinges requisire and necessary in the Primitiue church which in our dayes were lyke to do more harme then good This is no new 〈◊〉 phantasy but 〈◊〉 1100. yeares ago by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 morose without reproch I shewed you and read you the place at 〈◊〉 as ye may 〈◊〉 and it were to long to make rehearsall of 〈◊〉 wordes here We might by taking contrary opinion herin 〈◊〉 led to thinke we ought to receâ—… the Sacrament euermore after supper and not â—…astinge But S. Augustin sayth that Christ 〈◊〉 thys to his church to take order how and in what sort the Sacramentes should be receyued and vsed Wherin he sayth it is a marucâ—…ous insolent kind of mandnes to 〈◊〉 that which is receyued in the church where the custome is not against an â–ª commaundement in Scripture S. Peter cauâ—…ed as Damasus saith a commaâ—… that 〈◊〉 womaÌ„ should come 〈◊〉 to the churche S. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 order that the 〈◊〉 shoulde haue al thinges in commen and so liue 〈◊〉 as in the late reformed order of Saint Benets munkes doth most godly appeare And not many yeares sence the same order in all Cathedrall Churches was obscrued Yet I wene it were an erroure to holde of necessity it should be so still Or to say the church were in an errour because it hath suffered a contrary custume to creâ—…e in Then if the 〈◊〉 of the church maye break thaâ—… was in the Primitiue church commaunded it is lesse offence to leaue vndone that was at the beginning practised and no commaundement geuen for other to folow the same Thus much I thought to put you in remembraunce of for such matters as ye touche in 1. 7. 42. 43. nombers The Reply Sarum IN the conclusion ye take greate aduaÌ„tage
require you to no greate paine one good sentence shal be sufficient You would haue your priuate masse the Bishop of Romes Supremarie the Commen prayer in an vnknowen tongue and for the defence of the same ye haue made no sinal adoo Me thinketh it reasonable ye bryng sum one authoritie beside your owne to auouche the same withall Ye haue made y â— vnlearned people beleue ye had al the Doctours al the CouÌ„celles fiften huÌ„dred yeres on your side For your credites sake let not all these great vauÌ„ts come to naught Where ye say ye are in place of a learner and gladly cum to be taught you must pardon me it semeth very hard to beleue For if you were desirous to learne as you would seme ye would cum to the Church ye would resort to the lessons ye would abide to hear a sermon for these are the Scholes if a man list to learn It is a token the scholer passeth 〈◊〉 for his Boke y e wil neuer be brought to Schole Ye desyre ye may not be put of but y t your suit may be considered And yet this half yere long I haue desired of you of your bretheâ—… but one sentence and still I know not how I am cast of and can get nothing at your handes You call for the speciall proufes of our doctrine whiche would require a whole Boke where as if you of your part could vouchesaue to bring but two lines the whole matter were concluded Yet lest I should seme to flie rekening as ye do or to folow you in discourtesie I wil perfourme sum part of your request although in dede it be vnreasonable Agayust your new deâ—…se of traÌ„substantiatioÌ„ besides many others whom I wil now passe by ye haue the old father doctour Gelasius whose iudgement I beleue ye will regarde the more bicause he was soÌ„time bishop of Rome which See as you haue taught can never 〈◊〉 And is alleaged in the decries his wordes be plaine Non desinit esse substantia panis natura vini It leaueth not to be the substance of bread and the nature of wine But to auoid this authoritie sum men of your side haue ben forced to expound these words in this sorte Non desinit esse substantia hoc est non desinit esse accideÌ„s It leaueth not to be the substaÌ„ce of bread y t is to saye it leaueth not to be the accidence or the fourme or the shape of Bread A very miserable shift Euen as right as the Scholie expoundeth the Text. Dist. 4. Statuimus id est abrogamus Yet doctor Smith of Oxford toke a wiser way For his answear is that Gelasius neuer wrote those wordes and that they hange not together and that there is no sence nor reason in them Here haue you that after the coÌ„ secration there remaineth the sub stance of bread and Wine Now bryng ye but one doctour that will say as ye saye that there remayneth only the accidentes or shapes of bread and wyne and I will yelde As touching a priuate Masse Gregorie saieth in his dialogues that before the time of the CoÌ„munion the Deacon was â—…oute in his time to crie vnto the people Qui non communicat locum cedat alteri who so will not receaue the Communion let him departe and giue place to others To breake the ordinaunce of Christ and to communicate vnder one kinde only your own doctour Gelasius calleth it SacrilegiuÌ„ And Theophilus Alexandrinus sayeth Si Christus mortuus fuisset pro Diabolo non negaretur illi poculum sanguinis â—…f Christ had died for the Deuil the cup of the bloud should not be denied him That the CoÌ„men prayers were vsed in the commen tongue you haue S. Basil S Hierome S. Augustin S. Chrisostome Saint Ambrose and the Emperour Iustiniam the places be knowen You see I disaduantage my self of many thinges that mighte be spoken For at this present I haue no leisure to write Bokes Now must I needes likewyse desire you forasmuche as I haue folowed your minde so far ether to bryng me one olde doctour of your side or els to giue vs leaue to thinke as the trueth is ye haue none to bryng You desire vs to leaue 〈◊〉 agaynst you and no more to 〈◊〉 so 〈◊〉 with you in the pulpittes O maister Doctour call you this vnmercifull dealyng when you were in authoritye ye neuer coulde call vs other then â—…tours and heretiques and yet besides all that vsed our Bodies as you know We only tell the people as our 〈◊〉 is that you withstand the manifest trueth and yet haue nether Doctour nor Councell nor Scripture for you and that you haue shewed such extremitye as y â— like hathe not ben sene and nowe can giue no rekenyng why Or if ye can let it appeare You saye our doctrine is yet in doubt I answere you to vs it is most certein and out of all doubt But if you for your parte be yet in doubt reason and charitie would ye had bene quite resolued out of doubt before ye had dealt so vnmercifully for it w t your brethern You are bound you say may not dispute yet god be thaÌ„ked you are not so bound as ye haue bouÌ„d others But I wold wish y t Quenes maiestie wold not only set you at 〈◊〉 in that behalf but also commaunde you to shewe your groundes But when ye were at liberty â–ª and a free disputatioÌ„ was offred you at Westminster before the Quenes most honorable couÌ„cel the whole estate of y â— Realm â–ª I pray you whether parte was it that then gaue ouer And yet theÌ„ you know ye were not bound Ye say ye remayne still in the faith ye were baptised in O good maister doctor stand not to much in that point You knowe ye haue alreadie for saken a great number of suche thinges as were thought necessarie wheÌ„ ye were Baptised and yet be sides that how many times haue suÌ„ of you altered your faith within the space of twenty yeares Remember your self who wrote the Boke A. De vera obedieÌ„ â–ª tia against the Supremacie of Rome B who commended it with his preface C who set it forth with solemne Sermons D who confirmed it with open othe You haue ecclesiam Apostol â–ª cam ye saye and we haue none Nowbeit in all these matters that we nowe entreat of we haue as you know must needes confesse the olde doctors church the auntient Councelles Church the Primitiue church S. Peters church S. 〈◊〉 Church and Christs Church and this I beleue ought of good right to be called the Apo stelles Churche And I 〈◊〉 mutch that you knowing ye haue none of all these yet should say ye haue ecclesiam Apostolicam Where ye say ye make no innouation it is no marueile for in manner all thinges were altered afore to your hands as may most â—…uidently appear by all these matters that be nowe in question betwene vs wherin ye
reasoninge the very true cause is suppressed and an other cause of purpose set in place For example I say I confer with you vnder protestation lest I shoulde seme to call y t doetrine into doubt which I knew to be established by gods word by sufficient authority thronghout this â—…ealm And you would haue it taken that I do it bicause I am a Bishop Which indede is of your syd a sophistication à non causa vt causa So likewise I say you alledg no dectors nor scriptures nor generall CouÌ„celles as true it is bicause ye haue none to alledge But you woulde make men beleue ye dare not alledg theÌ„ bicause ye stand bound in Recognisaunce to y â— coÌ„trary And this of your syd is another Sophi stication à non causa vt causa Where you saye ye will shewe me that I brought this in out oâ—… all purpose it had bene more for your credit if ye would haue done it out ofhand But forasmuche as y e fairest shew of your learning haÌ„geth on the futurtens standeth only vpoÌ„ promis I trust you will bring forth your olde Doctours and Councels and perfurme this bothe together whiche wil be ye know when The trueth of our Doctrine against traÌ„substantiation was proued sufficiently and well allowed before your doctrine with transubstantiation was euer heard of For you are not able to shewe me not so much as the very name of transubstantiation in any kind of wryter new or old before the late Councell of Laterane whiche as you know was holden in Rome M. CCxv yeres after Christ. So longe the Church of God and the Catholik faith was able to stande without your transubstantiation Whiche if it were so true as ye would haue men think it I merneile it coulde neuer be knowen before ¶ Sarum BUt as touching my callinge I am not only readie to answer anye man in any thing that I professe but also vpon snfficieÌ„t allegatioÌ„ as I haue proâ—…sed very wel coÌ„teÌ„t to yelde vnto you ¶ Cole THat you are required that you refuse make large offer to no purpose The reply Sarum â–ª THat you required me I haue partly perfourmed euen in my last Letters as you your self do know right well and that not altogether from the purpose as it shall appeare Brig you forth asmuch of your syd and I wil say ye cumme wel to the purpose ¶ Sarum BUt I besech you what reason of your faith in these matters gaue you suÌ„time when you wer in place Scriptures Doctors CouÌ„celles ye had none as now appeareth by your silence ¶ Cole VVE brought more then ye were able to answer all were it not Scriptures nor doctours nor councelles The Reply Sarum IN steed of scriptures Doctors and Councelles ye brought such extremity as the world hath not sene the lyke and as you are now loth to heare of And yet it pleased god that the same should be anwered sufficiently with patience sufferance But here am I glad ye confesse one trueth by the waye that ye brought in all that tyme nether scriptures nor Doctours nor generall Councelles of your syde and yet I trow ye were frie from RecognisaÌ„ce This I beleue passed you vnwares and not of purpose â–ª As your Proloquâ—…tor in the disputation at Oxforde gaue out one trueth by chaunce vndad uisedly as he gaue knowledge to the audience in the diuinitie schole of what matters they would dispute For thus he said and that in your owne hearinge Virâ—… 〈◊〉 conuenimus hûc holdiè disputaturi contra horribilem illam Haeresim de veritate Corporis Sanguinis Christi in Eucharistia Brethern saide he we cume hither this daye to dispute against that horrible Heresie of the veritie of Christes body and blud in the Sacrament God wolde haue him vtter sume trueth then as you doo nowe bicause he was Pontifex illius anni But forasmuch as you confesse ye brought nether Scriptures nor Doctours nor Councelles Iremit the matter to your own reader to consider what ye brought Sarum THerfore the ground of your persuasion must then needes be Nos habemus legem secuÌ„dum legem c. Yoâ—… know what foloweth that is we haue a law accordiug to our law he must die ¶ Cole This argument I would faine see proued The Reply Sarum YOur whole practise and the order of your doiuges for sixe yeres together hath proued it sufficiently And besides y t a Bishop of yours euen in that tune sittyng in iudgement vpon a pore man in a case of ReligioÌ„ and hearing him alledge the Scripturs and other authorities for him self rounded a geutlemaÌ„ in the ear that sate next to him with these wordes Naye if we stryue with them in Scriptures reasoning we shall neuer haue done We must proced agaiÌ„st them with the Law ¶ Sarum FOr as truly as God is God if ye would haue vouchsaued to folow eyther the Scriptures or the â—…ncient Doctours or the Coâ—…celles ye wolde neuer haue restored again eyther y â— suppremacie of Rome after it was once abolished or the priuate Masse or y â— communion vnder one kynd c. ¶ Cole 〈◊〉 and bold asseâ—…eration maketh no proâ—… in the Law The Reply Sarum TRue and ernest asseueration maketh a proufe sufficient in y â— law as loÌ„g as â—…e haue nothinge to the contrarie as in ded ye haue not nor neuer shall haue But w tout question your terrible garde of Billes halbardes your grinning and skoffing with other like your demeanour as ye vsed in the disputations at Oxforde against the marâ—…irs and faithfull witnesses of goddes trueth and as now your crakes of many things and bringing forth of nothing I beleue to any wise man maketh but smal proufe in diuinity But if ye wold haue had any wise man myslik my asseueratioÌ„ ye should haue shewed by what scriptures by what CouÌ„celles or by what doctours ye restored these thinges again ¶ Sarum IT greaueth you that I should rest vpoÌ„ the negatiue and so put you to your proufes Wherin notwithstandinge ye alledg against methe custom of y â— scholes yet you know Christ vsed the same kind of reasoning in his schole As when he said to the Pharisies Hoc Abraham non fecit This thing AbrahaÌ„ neuer did And again when be answered them in y e case of diuorse A principio non fuit sic it was not so from the beginning he stode only vpon the negatiue ¶ Cole HEreis againe one place that I reken you put not in your selfe For it maketh quyt against you For Christ proued the Pharisies were not Abrahams Children and that a man maye not put away his 〈◊〉 for euery cause The Reply Sarum I See you would faine put me out of credit as thogh I wer not able to answere your letters without conference But this I reken you do for a ioly policie that while your reader is lokig vpon me he should forget the whole matter that we talk of Yâ—… y â— eraÌ„ples
had confessed ther wer opeÌ„ errours in the masse notwithstaÌ„ding Latomus a doctour of your own had confessed a great abuse in the CoÌ„munion vnder one kind â–ª notwitstanding Pius ii Bishop of Rome had sene and confessed great abuse in the restrainynge of Priestes mariage yet in the same councel they concluded among theÌ„ selues y t no maner of thing should be changed at all that had bene once receiued in their Câ—…urch Therfore these be not fond excuses y â— world seeth they be to true ¶ Sarum BOth parties ye say haue waded so far herein that nowe they can go no farther and therfore ye would haue â—…ther partye let other alone This ye say now because ye see ye are called to an audit and are not able to make your accompte But if ye of your part had been so indifferent when time was many a godly man had now been alyue ¶ Cole YE forget your self I say not so 〈◊〉 loke bet 〈◊〉 in the place The Reply Sarum IF ye meant not so it skilleth not greatly It is to small purpose Consider it well and ye shall finde my conclusion true ¶ Sarum WHere ye say ye would haue the sayinges of both parties weâ—…ed by y â— balaunce of the olde doctors ye se that is our speciall request vnto you And that in the matters you wryt of I 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 so to be tryed But why throw ye away these Balance And being so ofteÌ„ times required why be ye so loth to shew forth but one old doctor of your 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 make 〈◊〉 beleue ye would not haue the maâ—… cum to tryall Only ye set forth the empty names of S. Augustine of sainct 〈◊〉 of S. Chrisostome of S. Bastll of S. Ciprian of TertulliaÌ„ of Ireneus of Dionysius of the couÌ„celles c. As y â— Apotheâ—…aryes set forâ—…h theyr painted Bores and oftentymes nothinge in them Ye shewe me onely the names of the doctors which I knew before But ye shewe me not one worde in them of the priuate masse or of the 〈◊〉 of the matters that lye betwen vs. If ye could haue found any thing in them for your purpose I beleue ye wolde not haue brought them empty Ye say all these matters be already determined But where I pray you or in what generall councell This is it that I would so gladly knowe at your hand and that ye say ye haue and yet so vngently kepe it from me ¶ Cole THen begin if ye think the tyme will serue 〈◊〉 put it ouer till another tym All these be but wordes often repeted and answered alredy The Reply Sarum I Haue offered and begon in vain For ye kepe your selfe of and wil not come to answer These words I graunt haue ben vpon good occasion oftentimes repeted and I thinke ye would say some what to them if ye were able ¶ Sarum YE say I 〈◊〉 misreporte the late Councell of Constance O good master doctor these words saâ—… to much of your choller and might better haue been spared I spake more fauourably of y â— councell then I might haue done The words of the councel be these speaking namely of y â— communion vnder both kinds Pertinaciter assereÌ„tes 〈◊〉 pofitum tanquam Heretici â—…rcendi sunt By these wordes they that maintein the manifest ordinaunce of Christ the practise of the Apostles are not called 〈◊〉 as I sayd but 〈◊〉 wilful heretikes Ye se therfore my reporte was more fauourable then y â— couÌ„â—… deserued ¶ Cole YE say the councell of Constance openly pronounced against Christ. Wherein Ipray you 〈◊〉 the fathers there sayd who so sayth it is of necessity to receiue vnder both kindes and the 〈◊〉 custom of the churche is sacriledge 〈◊〉 to be taken as an 〈◊〉 yet non heretik but in a wrong opiniâ—… Then be like ye can bringe in sum text where Christ coÌ„maunded it should not be receiued but vnder both kinds which ye caÌ„ neuer do So is youre report of this councel slanderous still Read 4. Canonem concilâ—… Constantienfis The Reply Sarum IT grcueth you that I should say y â— councell decreed against christ But consider it a right ye shall find it Christ as ye know appointed the Communion vnder bothe kindes and commaunded his disciples to do y â— same as he had done it Therfore he that commauÌ„deth the contrary and that vnder the paine of heresy pronounceth opeÌ„ly against Christ. Ye call it an approued custome of the church Yet ye remembers Ciprians wordes that be alledged in your own decrees Christus non dicit ego sum consuetudo sed ego sum veritas that is to say Chryst saith not I am custum but I am the trueth But if custume might iustly preuayle agaynste an open and playne truethe I praye you where was youre Communyon vnder one kynd euer at any tyme sence the beginning of the world allowed for a generall customeâ—… Or being but a particuler custoÌ„ as it is and that receiued onely oâ—… your selse in what generall councel was it euer allowed Ye say your own ordinaunces may not be broken without y â— anthority of a general Councel And dare ye without any suche authority only vpon a vain and particuler custome to break the vniuersall ordenaunce of Christ Ye saye men are not to be iudged heretikes that withstaÌ„d your order herein but onely to be in a wrong opinion Here I se that ye and your brethren agree not in iudgemeÌ„t both together And therfore ye shall the lesse marueile yf we disagree from you mistrust you both For Hossius a doctoure of your syde is not afrayed to call it heresy and sacrilege his words be plaine Nunc haeresin profert séque pollicetur ostensurum omnes esse impios qui vtriusque speciei coÌ„munionem laicis denegaÌ„t And again An autem idem in regno tuo factuÌ„ non vidimus vbi Calix per summum sacrilegium vsurpatur And agayn vellem autem vnam mihi terram aliquam ostendi vbi priuata libidine calix vsurpari coeptus est in quanoÌ„ è vestigio multae sint aliae quideÌ„ horribiles haereses consequute Thus to do that thinge that Christ and his Apostles and all the olde fathers did in the primitiue Churche without exception this doctour concludeth it to be an horrible heresy And if it were taken for no heresye as ye saye it was not then was your Councell to muche to blame that gaue so cruell sentence againste the people of Bohema for that they thought it necessary to vse both kindes accordingee to the institucion of Christ and pronounced thus against them Tanquam Haeretici arcendi sunt For yf they take them for no heretikes â–ª they did them great wrong to punishe them as heretikes And yet is your doctour 〈◊〉 to muche to blame to condemne any thing for heresy without any word of God and speciallye without the authority of any olde doctor or any generall councell Ye ask me what text I caÌ„ bring forth
wherin Christ commauÌ„ded that the communion should be receyued vnder both kinds The institucion of Christ and his commaundement thereunto annexed as me thinketh is texte good iâ—…ought to him that wil be ruled by Chryst. I will not aske ye what text ye can brynge wherin Chryst hath commauÌ„ded you to minister the communion in one kind But this only would I knowe what text ye can bring wher by a Priest ministring the Sacrament is coÌ„mauÌ„ded to receiue it in both kids more then any other lay man I know your answer ye must nedes say the institution of Christ. And yet by your own interpretaâ—…ion if a priest communicate himself vnder one kinde Gelasius calleth it Sacrilegium which thyng I reken he would not haue sayd if he had not thought it contrary to the opeÌ„ words and institucion of Chryst. Againe what texte can ye bryng wherbi as touching this point the Priest hath any priueledg aboue the people If ye can fynd none as in dede ye shall neuer be able theÌ„ y t that is sacriledg in the Priest is also sactiledge in the people Again what text can ye bryng wherby Christ hath precisely forbidden any man to baptise onlye in the name of the holy gost vn â–ª doubtedly ye can fynd none in all the Scripturs but onely Christs institution And yet whosoeuer woulde decree that suche kynde of Baptisme shoulde be vsed I trowe ye woulde saye he decrâ—… against Christ because he breaketh the institucion of Christ. Euen so doth your Councell oâ—… Constance in the matter we last talkt of Therfore my wordes are true still and yet ye ye must gâ—…ue me leue to say the trueth haue coÌ„cluded with a slaunder Touching the thing it selfe ye are so certaine of it y t none of you all can tell at what tyme it fyrste began But this ye knowe well if ye lyst to be knowen of it that it began nother in Chrystes tyme nor in the Apostles tyme nor wythin the olde Doctoures tyme nor wythin the Compasse of seuen hundred yeares after Christ. And therfore if a man should aske you of your coÌ„munion vnder onekind De coelo est an ex hominibus ye must nedes answere it came not from heaueÌ„ forasmuch as it hath no testimony of gods worde but onely crept in as Steâ—…n Gardiner confesseth by a supersticious negligence in the people Sarum WHere ye say ye could neuer yet 〈◊〉 the error of one generall councell I trowe this escaped you for default of memory Albertus Pighius the greatest learned man of your fide hath fouÌ„â—…â—…ut such errors to our handes namely in his boke that he calleth 〈◊〉 Hierarchia speakynge of the second couÌ„tell holden at â—…phesus which ye caÌ„â—…ot 〈◊〉 but it was generall and yet tokâ—… parte wyth the Heretike Abbat Eutyches agaynst the godlye man 〈◊〉 he wryteth thus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 congregata legitimê vt benê ita perperam iniustè impieque iudicare ac definire possunt that is generall councels yea eueÌ„ such as be lawfully summoned as they may conclude thinges well so may they likewyse iudge and determine thynges rashely 〈◊〉 and wickedly ¶ Cole YE ground your self vppon Pigghius 〈◊〉 â–ª For Pigghius holdeth the councell of Ephesuo was general which the Councel of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 So that I marueil muche herein of you that ye alledg that for a councell whycâ—… hath no place in the â—…oke of councels The Reply Sarum IN Pigghius wordes there are two thiÌ„gs to be noted The one is that he saith a general couÌ„cel may erre in faith The other that he saith the second councell of Ephesus was generall And forasmuche as ye chalenge hym onely for y â— latter I thinke ye wil agree with him in the first which to my purpose is sufficient But here ye cause me to marueile what ye meane to make so little accompt of Pighius for he as ye know hath been taken for y â— chiefest champion of your syde Pighius sayth the councell oâ—… Ephesus was generall and ye say it was not so Ye muste geue me leaue to say the trueth if y e matter come to a quid dicunt Pigghius wil be taken in y r cuntry for a 〈◊〉 as wel learned and as skilfull in y r counsels as D. Cole Ye shoulde not so little esteme the doctours of your own syde least that beiÌ„g not able to alledge any olde doctoure and refusing the new it may happely be thought ye haue neyther old nor new And yet wheÌ„ ye 〈◊〉 before the Quenes maiesties coÌ„missioners at Lambeth ye sayd openly there that Pighius is ful of erroures But forasmuche as ye your self haue begon to find faulte wyth your own doctours I trust hereafter ye wyll the better beare wyth vs if we sometyme shall do the same Here ye dryue me to vse the moe words partly to defende Pighius in hys right and partely to make you se howe wilfully ye wythstande an open trueth hauyng so little to the contrary And as ye shal be founde true in thys euen so am I wel content to take you in all the reast First Nicephorus Euagrius that wryte the whole Storye and order of the councell of Ephesus neuer denied it to be generall 〈◊〉 the Emperoure that summoned the Bishops together as it may appeare by hys words toke it to be generall For thus he wryteth to y e councell Cogitantes non esse tutum absque vestra sancta Synodo vbique sanctaruÌ„ Ecclesiarum praesulibus huiusmodi quaestionem de fide renouari necessariuÌ„ duximus vestram sanctitatem conuenire These wordes Sanctarum Ecclesiarum quae vbique sunt importe a generalitie of all churches through the worlde Farther ther was the emperours authority the Bishop of Romes legate whyche as sume men thinke maketh vp al together and other Bishops of all nations And howe could suche a councell not be generall Youâ—… doctours of Paâ—…yse haue concluded thus Articulo XXII Quod autem magistri nostri dicuÌ„â—… de legitima congregatione notandum est ad hoc vt concilium legitimè congregetur sufficere quod solemnitas forma iuris solemniter sit seruata Quia si quis trahere vellet hoc in disputationem vtruÌ„ praelati qui ibi sedent habeant rectam intentionem vtrum sint docti vtrum habeant scientiam sacrarum literarum animuÌ„ obediendi sanae doctrinae esset processus in infinituÌ„ That is to say where as our doctours speake of a lawfull councel we must marke that to this that the councel be lawfully gathered it shal be sufficient that the solemnity and fourme of law be solemly obserued For if we shoulde moue question whether the Bishops y e sit in councell haue a godly meaning whether they be learned and whether they haue vnder staÌ„ding of the scriptures and whether they mind to submit them selues to sound doctrine then should we neuer haue done Thus it is decreed by your doctours that nether godly meaning nor learnig nor knowledge of
Communion al this while Yet are there sum that whisper in corners that the masse is ablessed a catholike thing and y ◠the holy Communion which now god of his great mercy hathe restored to vs is wicked and scismaticall therefore they murmure against it therfore they refrayne it wyll not come to it O mercifull God who woulde thynke there coulde be so muche wilfulnes in the heart of man O Gregorye O Augustine O Hierome O Chrisostome O Leo O Dionyse O Anacletus O sixtus O Paule O Christ If we be deceyued herein ye are they y ◠haue deceyued vs. You haue taught vs these sci◅nes diuisions ye haue taught vs these heresies Thus ye ordred the holy communiō in your tyme the same w◅ receyued at your hand and haue faithfullye delyuered it vnto the people And that ye may the more meruell at the wylfulnes of suche men they stande this day against so manye olde fathers so manye doctoures so many examples of the primitiue churche so manifest and so plaine words of the holye scriptures yet haue they herein not one father not one doctor not one allowed example of the prymitiue churche to make for them And when I say not one I speak not this in vehemencie of spirite or heate of talke but euen as before God by the way of simplicity and truth lest any of you shoulde happely be deceyued and thynke there is more weyght in the other syde thē in cōclusion there shal be found And therfore once agayne I say of all the words of the holye scriptures of all the examples of y ◠primitiue churche of all the olde fathers of all the aunciēt doctors in these causes they haue not one Here the mater it selfe that I haue nowe in hand putteth me in remembraunce of certein thinges that I vttered vnto you to y ◠same purpose at my last beynge in thys place I remember I layed out then here before you a number of thinges that are nowe in contronersie◅ wherunto our aduersaries will not yelde And I said perhappes boldely as it might then seeme to sum man But as I my self and the learned of our aduersaries thēselues do wel know sincerely and trulye that none of all them that this day stande against vs are able or shall euer be able to proue against vs any one of all those points ether by y ◠scriptures or by exāple of y t primitiue church or by the olde doctours or by the auncient generall councelles Since that tyme it hathe ben reported in places that I spake then more then I was able to iustifye and make good Howe beit these reportes were onely made in corners and therefore ought the lesse to trouble me But if my sayinges had ben so weake myght so easelye haue ben reproued I meruayle that the partyes neuer yet came to the lyght to take the aduauntage For my promise was and that openly here before you all That if anye man were able to proue the contrary I woulde yelde and subscribe to hym And he shoulde depart with the victorye Loth I am to trouble you with rehersall of suche thinges as I haue spokē afore and yet because the case so requireth I shall desire you that haue alredy hearde me to beare y ◠more with me in this behalf Better it were to trouble your eares with twyse hearing of one thyng then to betray the truth of God The words that I then spake as nere as I can call them to mynd were these If any learned man of all our aduersaries or if all y e learned men that be alyue be able to bring any one sufficient sentence out of any olde catholike doctour or father Or out of any olde generall counsell Or out of y ◠holye scriptures of God Or any one example of the primitiue Churche wherby it may be clearly plainly proued y t there was any priuate masse in the whole worlde at that tyme for the space of sixe hundred yeres after Christ Or that there was then any Communion ministred vnto the people vnder one kind Or that the people had th◅r commē prayers then in a straūge toung that they vnderstode not Or that the Bishop of Rome was then called an vniuersal Bishop or the head of y ◠vniuersal churche Or that y ◠people was then taught to beleue that Christes bodye is really substantially corporally carnally or naturally in the sacrament Or that his body is or maye be in a thousand places or mo at one tyme Or that the priest did then holde vp the sacrament ouer hys head Or that the people dyd then fall down and worship it w t godly honour Or that the sacrament was then or nowe oughte tobe hanged vp vnder a canopie Or that in the Sacrament after the wordes of consecration there remaineth only the accidents and shewes without the substaunce of bread and wyne Or that the priest then deuyded the Sacramente in three partes and afterward receyued him selfe all alone Or y ◠wh◅ so euer had said the sacramente is a figure a pledge a token or a remembraunce of Christes bodye had therefore been iudged for an heretike Or that it was lawfull then to haue xxx xx xv x. or v. Masses said in one Churche in one day Or that Images were then set vp in the churches to the entente the people might worship them Or that the lay people was then forbidden to reade the word of God in theyr owne toung If any man alyue wer able to proue any of these articles by anye one cleare or plaine clause or sentēce ether of the scriptures or of the olde doctours or of any olde generall Counsell or by any example of the primitiue chuech I promised then that I would geue ouer and subscribe vnto hym These words are the very lyke I remember I spake here openly before you all And these be the things that sum men say I haue spoken and cannot iustify But I for my part will not only not call in any thinge that I then sayd beinge well assured of the truth therein but also will laye more mater to y ◠same That if they that seeke occasion haue any thing to y ◠contrary they may haue the larger scope to replye againstme Wherfore besyde al that I haue said alredy I wil say farther and yet nothing so much as might be sayd If any one of all our aduersaries be able clearly and plainlye to proue by such authority of the scriptures the olde doctoures councelles as I said before that it was then lawfull for the priest to pronounce the wordes of consecration closely and in sylence to him self Or that the priest had th◅ authority to offer vp Christ vnto his father Or to communicate receyue the sacramēt for an other as they do Or to apply the vertue of Christes death and passion to any man by the meane of y ◠masse Or that it was then thought a sound doctrine to
teache the people that y â— masse ex opere operato That is euen for that it is sayd done is able to remoue any parte of our synne Or y t then any chrystian man ealied the sacrameÌ„t hys Lord and God Or that the people was theÌ„ taught to beleue that the bodye of Christ remayneth in the sacrament as long as the accidents of the bread remayne there wythout cortuption Or that a mouse or any other worme or best may eate the body of Christ for so sum of our aduersaries haue sayd and taught Or that when Christ said Hoc est corpus meum Thys word Hoc pointeth not the bread but Indiuiduum vagum as sum of them say Or that the accidens or formes or shewes or breade and wyne be the sacrameÌ„ts of Christs body and bloâ—…de not rather the very bread and wyne it self Or y â— the sacrament is a sygne or token of the body of Christ y â— lyeth hiddeÌ„ vnderneath it Or that ignorauÌ„ce is the mother and cause of true denotion and obedience These be the highest misteries and greatest keyes of theyr religion without them theyr doctrine can neuer be mainteyned and stande vp ryght If any one of al our aduersaries be able to auouche any one of all these articles by any such sufficieÌ„t authority of scriptures doctours or Councelles as I haue required as I sayd before so say I now agayn I am content to yelde vnto him and to subscribe But I am well assured they shall neuer be able truly to alleadge one sentence And because I knowe it therfore I speake it lest ye happelye shoulde be deceyned All this notwithstandynge ye hau ehearde men in tymes paste alledge vnto you councelles doctours antiquities successions and long continuaunce of tyme to the contrarye And an easye mater it was so to do speciallye before them that lacke eyther leysure or iudgement to examine theyr proufes On a tyme Mithridates the kynge of Pontus layed syege to Cizicum a towne ioyned in frendship to the Citye of Rome Whych thynge the Romanes hearynge made out a gentleman of theyrs named Lucullus to rayse y â— siege After y t Lucullus was within the sight of y t towne shewed himself with his company vpon the syde of an hill thence to geue courage to the Citizens within that were hesseged Mithridates to cast thâ—… into despaire and to cause theÌ„ the rather to yelde to hym made if to be noysed and bare them in hand that al that new company of souldiers was his sent for purposely by him against the Citye All that notwythstandynge the Citizens within kepte the walles and yelded not Lucullus came on raised the siege wanquished Mithridates and slew hys men Euen so good people is there now a siege layde to your walles an armie of doctours and councelles shewe them selues vpon an hill The aduersary y t would haue you yelde beareth you in hand that they are their souldiers stande on theyr syde But kepe your hold the doctours and olde catholike fathers in the pointes that I haue spoken of are yours ye shall se the siege raised ye shall se your aduersaries discomfeited put to flight The Pelagians were able to alleadge S. Augustin as for them felf yet when the mater came to profe he was against them Heluidius was able to alleadge Tertullian as making for him selfe but in trial he was against him Eutyches alleadged Iulius Romanus for him selfe yet in dede was Iulius most againste hym The same Eutiches alleadged for him self Athanasius Cyprian but in conclusion they stode both against him Nestorius alleadged the counsel of Nice yet was the same councell found against him Euen so they that haue auaunted them selues of doctoures and Councelles and continuaunce of tyme in any of these pointes whâ—… they shal be called to tryal to shew theyr profes they shall open theyr handes fynd nothing I speake not this of arrogaÌ„cy thou Lord knowest it best that knowest all thynges But for as much as it is Goddes cause and the truth of God I shoulde do God greate iniurye if I shoulde concele it But to returne againe to our mater There be sum that say y â— no masse is priuate or to be taken as y â— action of one priuate man For they say y â— priest that saith masse here doth communicate with an other priest that saith Masse sum other where where so euer it be the distance beyng neuer so great Thys commissioÌ„ semeth very large For so may the priest that saith masse in Englande or Scotland communicate with the priest that is in Calicute or in the farther moste part of India And by thys meanes should there be no excommunication at all for the partie excoÌ„municate might say he wold communicat with the prâ—…est whether he would or no. But Saint Paul gloseth not y â— matter on this sort but saith Alter alterum expectate That is tary ye one for an other And again he saith when ye cum together ye cannot eate y â— Lordes supper for euery one of you taketh his own supper aforehand Sum others say the prieste maye communicate for the people and that is as meritorious vnto them as if they had communicate them selfe But what commission hath the prieste so to do or from whoÌ„ or what certeyne knowledg hath he that his receyuinge of the communion shal be auailable for the people for if it be so what neded it then Christ to say Accipite bibite ex hoc omnes â–ª Or if we may receyue the sacrament of Christes body one for an other why maye not we aswell be baptised one for an other Why may we not aswel confesse our faultes before the coÌ„gregation and receyue absolucion on for an other Whi may we not heare the Gospell and beleue one for an other O that these folies so weake and so vain without shew or shadowe of any truth shoulde euer synke into a Christian heart or take place in Goddes religion S. Paule saith Qui manducat bibit indignè iudicium sibi maÌ„ducat bibit Who so eateth or drinketh vnworthely eateth driÌ„keth iudgement not vnto others sayth S. Paul but to him selfe Againe S. Paul saith who so beleueth in him y â— iustifieth the wicked not the faith of any other man but hys own faith is rekened to him vnto iustice S. Chrisostom saith It is the heresie of the Martionites to thinke that any one man maye receyue the sacrament for an other therfore he maketh light of such disorder of the sacramentes calleth them Sacramenta vicaria Origene saith Ille est sacerdos propitiatio hostia Est enim Agnus Dei qui tollit peccata mundi â–ª Quae propitiatio ad vnumquemque venit per viaÌ„ fidei He is our priest saith Origene he is our attonement he is our sacrifice For he is y â— lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world Whiche attonement saith he coÌ„meth vnto vs â—…ot by the